July 24, 2024 • 53 mins
True crime, anyone?! Arpita tells the story of a brilliant physicist who disappeared under mysterious circumstances.
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Episode Transcript
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Arpita (00:10):
Notice for our listeners, this episode contains
mentions of suicide.
Aarati (00:16):
Hi everyone.
And welcome back to the SmartTea podcast, where we talk about
the lives of scientists andinnovators who shape the world.
I'm Aarati.
Arpita (00:24):
I'm Arpita.
Aarati (00:26):
How are you doing?
Arpita (00:27):
I am very busy this week.
Aarati (00:31):
Yeah?
Arpita (00:32):
I'm heading to Italy tomorrow.
And so, my life is fully in thethroes of pre- trip drama.
Like, all the random things thatyou need to do before you head
out on like a long trip, um, sothe to do list is just like, I
got to finish my laundry, I gotto figure out watching the cats.
(00:54):
I got to figure out like mypacking list and what I'm
wearing.
And oh, my God, so many things.
Aarati (00:59):
Have you ever been to Italy?
Arpita (01:02):
I have been to Italy.
Um, we're going to Como and I'venever been to Como.
So, uh, yes, that's the otherthing.
So I'm just like, oh, it's goingto be so hot.
What am I going to wear?
My wardrobe is for SanFrancisco.
Aarati (01:14):
Yes.
Yes.
Arpita (01:17):
Then I was Googling yesterday.
I was like, are there going tobe mosquitoes?
And then Google gave me varyingresponses.
I'm like, okay, well now I gotto get bug spray.
Aarati (01:24):
Oh my gosh.
You know what, though?
I just saw this thing on TikTokwhere someone said that if you
just put vanilla extract andwater in a spray bottle and
spray it, the mosquitoes willstay away from you.
And I have not tried it, butthey are swearing by it.
It's like some girl who lives inFlorida and who swears that
every summer she's been eatenalive by mosquitoes.
(01:46):
And then she saw this hack andshe tried it.
Cause she was like, I've triedevery other bug spray on the
market.
And all it is is vanilla extractand water mixed together and
she's
Arpita (01:56):
What?
Aarati (01:56):
It's amazing and she put a little like cinnamon stick in
there and she's like, I smellgreat.
The mosquitoes aren't botheringme at all.
So I don't know.
You could try it and see if itis true.
Because if so, that soundsamazing.
Yeah.
Arpita (02:11):
Okay.
Well, I want to try that simplybecause I would love to smell
like vanilla and not like
Aarati (02:17):
Right?
Arpita (02:18):
sticky bug spray.
Yeah.
Aarati (02:19):
What's the worst...
Like even if it doesn't work,you'll smell amazing.
So there you go.
Arpita (02:24):
Great hack.
I'm looking into that.
Um, but yeah, that's what'shappening in my life.
What about you?
What's up with you?
Aarati (02:30):
I mean, not much.
I am really trying not to getweighed down by the political
climate of today
Arpita (02:37):
God.
Aarati (02:37):
and right now.
Even
Arpita (02:38):
want to bring it up.
I didn't want you.
Aarati (02:39):
I know I know I'm just like watching the news and
people are going crazy.
There's all these conspiracytheories, and I'm just sitting
here, like, what has the worldcome to?
And I'm also, I have like anintern that I'm working with
right now who's writing blogpieces, but he wants to go into
politics.
(03:00):
And I'm just like, why, why, Imean, we need people like you
who will go and fight the goodfight.
Arpita (03:08):
We need like young, smart, talented people.
Aarati (03:11):
We really do, we need people so badly.
So I admire those people, but Ialso can't fathom it.
Cause I'm really the type ofperson who just buries their
head in the sand and it's justlike, I don't see all this
stuff.
I don't see all this crazinessthat's happening.
Please.
I live in you know, very liberalbubble and I'm very happy here.
Please
Arpita (03:30):
Yeah, I know.
It's so hard.
And then I also feel like I'mvery sensitive.
So then I feel like the newsaffects me so deeply.
And so then I have to alsomoderate my consumption.
So I totally feel you.
Aarati (03:42):
Yeah.
It gives me so much anxiety.
So I'm just trying really hardto like, I want, I'm in this
weird place where I want to beinformed about what's happening
in the world, but at the sametoken, I need to take my mental
health into consideration andjust.
You know, so, um, I dunno, butyeah, that's, that's kind of
(04:03):
just what's been happening.
I'm, I feel just a little bitmore like it's a little bit more
close to home because of, theintern that I'm helping right
now.
So I have to think about thepolitics a little bit more and
I'm trying to stay focused moreon the storytelling and how to,
like, guide him towards making amore compelling story and things
like that, rather than what thestory is actually about.
(04:25):
So yeah.
Anyway, speaking of stories,
Arpita (04:29):
I was going to say, I have a, I think I have a good
one for you that you're going tolike.
Aarati (04:35):
Okay, yes, that'll take my mind off of what's happening
in the world.
Maybe transport us to a timewhen scientific discovery was,
applauded and admired?
Arpita (04:48):
Yeah, I think you're gonna like this one.
So, the star of our story todayis about Ettore Majorana, and he
is an Italian physicist whoworked on theoretical physics
right as it was getting started.
But he disappeared under verymysterious circumstances.
So we're getting a little truecrime-y on Smart Tea today.
Aarati (05:10):
Excellent.
Arpita (05:11):
It's not a full murder mystery, but you know, it's like
a missing person.
There's some intrigue.
Aarati (05:18):
Well, the first podcasts I started listening to,
honestly, were true crimepodcasts.
When I was listening, when I waslike working in the lab, I was
like, these true crime podcastsjust make the time go so fast.
So I'm excited that the twoworlds are kind of coming
together.
Arpita (05:33):
I know.
That's what I was thinking oftoo.
Um, okay.
So Ettore was born in Catania,Italy, which is just outside
Mount Etna on August 5th, 1906.
His mother Doreena was from avery wealthy family and he was
raised in this beautiful homewith lots of luxuries.
And he came from this verycrazy, talented, and smart
(05:55):
family.
So his uncle, Angelo, was verytalented and precocious, and he
became a lawyer at 16,
Aarati (06:05):
Oh my God.
Arpita (06:06):
Got appointed to be assistant professor at the
University of Catania when hewas 17.
He published so many books.
His uncle Quirino Majorana was aphysicist at Bologna University,
and he was really close toEttore.
Aarati (06:21):
So this is another uncle.
Arpita (06:23):
Different uncle.
Aarati (06:24):
He has a lawyer uncle and now a professor uncle.
Arpita (06:26):
A physicist uncle.
Yeah.
Um, this uncle was best knownfor rejecting Einstein's theory
of relativity, and he performeda lot of experiments to disprove
it.
Etorre's father, Fabio Massimohad really high expectations for
his family.
And he also came from a very,high achieving background.
(06:49):
He was a successful engineer andbusinessman.
Aarati (06:52):
Oh, wow.
Are these all like threebrothers?
Arpita (06:55):
The two uncles are the mom's brothers.
Aarati (06:58):
Wow.
that's some genetic stock you'recoming from.
Yeah.
Arpita (07:05):
He had four other siblings, Rosina, Salvatore,
Luciano, and Maria.
He was the fourth of five Hissiblings were all also very
brilliant, but I think that thatwould go down quite the rabbit
hole.
So, um.
he grew up very kind of timidand shy.
(07:26):
He was a little weird andoverall this was a very close
knit, like I said, brilliantfamily.
This is a very, very brilliantfamily.
Aarati (07:35):
Mm hmm.
So far this is sounding ideal.
This is like a wealthy family inItaly where everyone is just so
smart and probably beautiful.
Like, that's what I'm imaginingin my head anyway, that
Arpita (07:48):
It's honestly pretty right.
That's, that's, we're settingthe stage.
Aarati (07:51):
Okay, great.
Arpita (07:52):
So, like most kids during this time period, he was
initially educated at home, andthen he was sent to a Jesuit
boarding school in Rome with hisbrothers.
And that being said, homeschoolisn't what you would probably
think of with like a governess.
It was actually really rigorousbecause, as mentioned, their dad
had very, very high standardsfor them.
(08:14):
And he was known for beingreally tough on his kids,
especially when it came toacademics.
So he probably got a reallythorough education, even though
he was homeschooled.
When he was in high school, hetransferred to another school in
Rome to finish his preuniversity education.
And the family also moved toRome so that Ettore could finish
his education while still livingwith his family.
Aarati (08:37):
Okay.
Arpita (08:37):
He got his diploma in 1923 and then thought he was
going to be an engineer, justlike his father.
So he enrolled in this two yearprogram at the University of
Rome to prepare for engineeringschool.
And so for the next two years,he worked in this engineering
program.
Um, I did find something funnythat was, that said that
(08:58):
hydraulics was a class that wasreally hard for him to pass, but
he was a brilliant studenteverywhere else, which I thought
was kind of funny.
It's like, at least he washuman.
Like, there was something thatwasn't good at.
Aarati (09:10):
Hydraulics is his kryptonite.
Arpita (09:12):
Yeah, I guess.
Aarati (09:13):
Great.
I mean, hopefully we all havesomething like that at
Arpita (09:16):
Yeah.
I feel like I have many, but...
Aarati (09:19):
Yeah, at least one.
Arpita (09:21):
At least one.
Yeah.
And then now we hit thisinflection point in his life.
He meets a man named EmilioSegre.
For maybe people who havealready heard of him, he won the
Nobel Prize in physics, lateron, but he became very good
friends with Ettore.
So Emilio convinced Ettore thathe should leave engineering and
(09:44):
do physics with him, studyphysics instead.
Aarati (09:47):
Okay, what did he win the Nobel Prize in physics for?
Arpita (09:50):
Don't remember.
You can look it up.I
Aarati (09:55):
Emilio, uh, Nobel Prize, I feel like I'm going to look it
up and I'm not going to knowanyway.
Emilio Gino Segre, you said?
okay, I'm looking it up.
He won the 1959 Nobel Prize inphysics for his discovery of the
antiproton.
Which is an antiparticle withthe same mass as a proton, but
the opposite electrical charge.
(10:17):
Interesting.
Okay.
I feel like I haven't studiedthe parts of an atom since high
school.
Arpita (10:23):
Uh, as we will discover, neither have I.
So,
Aarati (10:26):
Great.
Great.
This this is really giving likeEmmy Noether vibes.
Arpita (10:31):
Emmy Noether?
Yeah, I, I really tried my best,um, to understand the physics
here.
I apologize in advance as we getto it a little bit later, but
Aarati (10:42):
We're not physicists..
Arpita (10:43):
We're, we're explaining this through biologist lens.
We're trying our best.
Aarati (10:48):
Yeah.
We really are.
Um, yeah.
Sorry.
Moving forward.
Arpita (10:54):
That's okay.
So Emilio convinced Ettore tostudy physics with him.
But it's interesting because itseems like Emilio was just kind
of passing the torch becausethere was this famed physics
professor, Enrico Fermi, who didthe same thing for Emilio.
So Emilio also was enrolled inan engineering program, and
Fermi convinced him to join thephysics department and thought
(11:16):
he would be really good at it.
And so then Emilio was like,Ettore, I think you should also
join the physics department.
And he was trying to loop hisfriend in.
Aarati (11:24):
Oh wow.
I have heard of Enrico Fermi.
So,
Arpita (11:27):
Yes.
So, big name in physics.
Um, and so then Emiliointroduced Ettore to Fermi, who
was the professor of theoreticalphysics at the University of
Rome.
So now they're all workingtogether with Fermi, and there's
the story that one of the firstdays he was working with Fermi
(11:48):
in his lab, he was taught thestatistical model of the atom,
and he was given a table ofcalculations that Fermi had done
himself that were associatedwith this model.
And then Ettore came back thenext day with his own sheet of
calculations and asked to lookat Fermi's work.
and told him that he waschecking Fermi's math and wanted
to make sure that thecalculations were correct.
(12:11):
And it seemed like he reallytrusted his own math even
against this like world renownedprofessor.
Aarati (12:16):
Oh, wow.
I mean, on some level, I dounderstand that.
I like, which grad studenthasn't at one point believed
that they know more than theirprofessor?
Arpita (12:26):
I think this is fair.
This is also maybe like one ofhis first days in the lab.
So that seems like kind of wildbehavior when you're still new.
Aarati (12:33):
Yeah, Yeah, that does take a lot of chutzpah.
Arpita (12:36):
It does.
However, there's also a theoryfrom another physicist that I
read that he was maybe justworking out his own way to do
these calculations before hejoined the lab, like he was
already sort of interested inthis and was just trying to line
up if his work was the same asFermi's work.
That is something that otherpeople have posited, but we
Aarati (12:57):
Okay.
Arpita (12:58):
I just thought that was a funny story.
Aarati (12:59):
Yeah, that is pretty funny.
That makes sense, though.
That would make sense if he wasjust kind of checking to see if
he was on the right track withhis own way of doing things.
Yeah.
Arpita (13:08):
So.
It's 1928, he's joining thisphysics program at the
University of Rome, and hebecomes part of this group known
as the Via Panisperna Boys, whowere named for the street where
the physics offices were.
And so this group included hisgood friend, Emilio Segre, and
so many of them were workingtogether under Fermi.
(13:30):
And this group in particular wasworking mainly to advance the
world of particle physics.
And this line of research endedup continuing on and eventually
enabled the development of theatomic bomb, so in nuclear
fission.
So that path of researcheventually led to this, but they
were working on sort of thereally early stages of this
(13:50):
research.
Aarati (13:51):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Arpita (13:52):
Okay.
So now here's where you have tobear with me.
So then in 1929, Ettorecompleted his thesis, which was
titled"The Quantum Mechanics ofRadioactive Nuclei." And so the
focus of his thesis applied thisnewly emerging principle of
quantum mechanics to understandthe behavior of particles that
were admitted during radioactivedecay of atomic nuclei.
(14:16):
So for his thesis, he proposed atheory on alpha decay
specifically, which is aspecific type of radioactive
decay.
And alpha decay is the emissionof a helium nucleus from an
unstable nucleus.
Aarati (14:31):
Okay.
Helium has two protons, right?
Arpita (14:35):
Correct.
Aarati (14:36):
Okay.
And so you have an unstable,hang on.
So you have an unstable atom,and as it decays, it gives off
like two protons.
Is that right?
Which is a helium atom.
Arpita (14:49):
That is my understanding.
But Yeah, I don't know.
This is where I sort of was justlike, this is so beyond my
depth.
I have no idea what's going on.
Aarati (14:58):
Yeah.
It's, it's
Arpita (15:00):
I, I have to say, I tried so hard to understand
this.
And I, at some point...
Aarati (15:06):
Sounds really hard.
Arpita (15:06):
Was just like, what the f is going on?
Okay.
Anyway, so his specific thesisextended this theory of alpha
decay to look at the behavior ofother particles that get emitted
from excited states of nuclei.
So, alpha decay is somethingthat was known where a helium
nucleus is emitted, and he'strying to understand the
(15:28):
behavior of any other particlesemitted during this excited
radioactive state.
Aarati (15:33):
Okay.
So if anything besides helium isbeing emitted by
Arpita (15:38):
Yes.
Aarati (15:39):
decaying nuclei.
Okay.
Yeah.
Seems like a reasonable thing tostudy.
Arpita (15:43):
Great.
Aarati (15:45):
Sure.
Like I'm, yeah, like, cause I'mstill not sure why he, like, I
would wonder why hydrogen is notbeing emitted cause that's only
one proton.
One electron, it would seem likeit would also be emitted, Or is
that just maybe another type ofdecay?
I feel like I'm probably askingquestions that are like, not
that we really need an expert inhere.
Arpita (16:05):
I have no idea.
I was fighting for my lifetrying to figure out all of
these physics, so,
Aarati (16:11):
No, I get that.
Arpita (16:12):
Okay.
So after he published histhesis, he decided to stay at
the University of Rome and hestarted teaching there for the
next four years.
And at this point, he reallybecame considered a master in
this field of theoretical andparticle physics.
So, in 1933, he began a newphase of his career.
(16:34):
The Italian Research Councilgave him a grant to travel to
Leipzig, Germany, where a lot oftheoretical research was
happening.
And so once he was in Germany,he started working with Berner
Heisenberg, who was a leader inquantum mechanics.
And when Heisenberg publishedhis paper on"Quantum Theoretical
Reinterpretation of Kinematicand Mechanical Relations", it
(16:57):
changed the field of physicsreally completely by introducing
this concept of quantummechanics.
And this is, this is reallywhere, Ettore jumped in like he
was really at this pinnacle ofright when this field was
getting started and working withthese amazing, brilliant
scientists.
Aarati (17:13):
Wow.
Arpita (17:14):
summarize,
Aarati (17:15):
late twenties, right?
If my math is correct, like he'salready this amazing genius
master in quantum physics.
Oh my God.
Okay.
Arpita (17:24):
Yeah, yeah.
This guy's for sure a genius.
Aarati (17:26):
Wow.
Go off.
All right.
Arpita (17:29):
So just to summarize quantum mechanics is, and this
is the definition I pulled thisstraight
Aarati (17:34):
Yes.
Yes, please.
That's going to be helpful.
Arpita (17:37):
Yeah.
Is the science dealing with thebehavior of matter and light on
the atomic and subatomic scale.
It attempts to describe andaccount for the properties of
molecules and atoms, as well astheir electrons, protons, and
neutrons, and other particleslike quarks and gluons.
These properties include wavelike duality, where a particle
(17:59):
like an electron can have both awave like and particle like
behavior, quantization, which iswhere certain properties like
energy come in these discretepackets, quants, um, as opposed
to continuous values, and theuncertainty principle where it
is impossible to know both theexact position and momentum of a
(18:20):
particle at the exact same time.
So these are some of the keyprinciples of quantum mechanics.
And just to be clear, this isthe definition in 2024.
All of this science was reallyin its infancy during Ettore's
life, so like they didn'tnecessarily know all of this to
quite that extent.
More just for background, thisis what the field of quantum
(18:40):
mechanics is trying toaccomplish.
Aarati (18:43):
Yeah.
Cause I don't think we even knewabout quarks until at least
like, I feel like that's arelatively recent thing.
And gluons, I haven't even heardof gluons, so.
Arpita (18:55):
So Leipzig was really this cutting edge of theoretical
research and he was right therewith the top scientists.
And he spent the first half of1933 in Leipzig working with
these, with this group.
And then he traveled toCopenhagen to work with a
different physicist, the DanishNiels Henrik David Bohr.
So probably names that I thinkwe, yeah, I know I was going to
(19:16):
say, I feel like we've heard ofa lot of these people before.
Aarati (19:19):
Yes.
Arpita (19:20):
Uh, we'll get to this later, but as I was reading and
researching this episode, a lotof people were saying that his
name would have been right upthere with Marie Curie,
Einstein, Newton, like all thesenames that are like household
level, um, if it wasn't for whathappened to him.
And we will, we'll, we'll get toit.
(19:41):
But a lot of people have likepeople who are contemporaries of
his...
Aarati (19:46):
Mm-hmm.
Arpita (19:46):
...say that he had that level of intelligence and that
level of weight on the physicsfield.
Aarati (19:53):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Now I'm really curious to knowwhat happened.
Arpita (19:57):
So after Copenhagen, after Germany, he goes back to
Rome at the end of 1933 and hestops writing entirely.
He got kind of sick during thesetravels.
He had ongoing digestive GIissues and the doctors that he
saw thought that he had nervousexhaustion, but it never really
(20:19):
went away.
Um, this period of his life is alittle bit quieter and it seems
like he lost himself a littlebit after these travels and it
didn't seem like he was ascompelled by his work or as
driven to teach and learn moreabout physics.
But around the same time, in1932, Irene Joliot-Curie, who is
(20:40):
Marie Curie's daughter, and herhusband, Friedrich, they did
this experiment that had sort ofweird results.
So they bombarded berylliumatoms with alpha particles, also
known as helium nuclei.
Which is probably why it'scalled alpha decay.
Aarati (20:54):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
Arpita (20:56):
That makes sense.
Um, and they observed a new typeof radiation emitted.
They believed that thisradiation consisted of high
energy gamma rays, photons.
Aarati (21:08):
Okay.
Arpita (21:09):
And their experiment also showed that this radiation
could knock protons out ofparaffin wax, which is a
hydrogen rich material withsurprisingly high energy.
And according to the physicsthat they knew at the time,
photons are these little lightparticles that don't have mass.
And so they should not be ableto knock out these particles
(21:29):
that do have mass from theparaffin.
And so the Joliot-Curie'spublished this, but they
mistakenly interpreted theparticles as photons.
Aarati (21:39):
So they thought they were shooting light or like
photon particles at thisparaffin wax and then seeing
protons getting knocked off?
Arpita (21:49):
Close.
So they were bombardingberyllium atoms with alpha
particles.
And they were noticing that thisvery interesting type of
radiation was being emitted.
And so in this case, theythought photons were being
emitted.
Aarati (22:03):
Oh, they thought the photons were being emitted.
Okay.
Arpita (22:06):
Correct.
And then that radiation wasknocking protons out of the
paraffin wax.
Aarati (22:12):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Arpita (22:14):
So it's like a little bit of a, um, sequential thing.
Um, and so they thought thesewere photons and then Ettore
read this paper and he thoughtthat these particles were more
similar mass to protons becausehe was like, you know, laws of
conservation of mass, thatprobably makes more sense.
So he started hypothesizing thatthere is another particle in an
(22:36):
atom.
And today we know these asneutrons and he made this
discovery and he told EnricoFermi about it.
He did all these calculations.
Fermi was like, amazing, greatpublish.
Never published.
And so ultimately this discoverywas credited to James Chadwick
in the UK for discovering theneutron.
Aarati (22:57):
Oh, wow.
So, like, James Chadwick wasdoing probably, like, similar
lines of inquiry, but sinceEttore didn't publish, Chadwick
basically scooped that result.
So they weren't workingtogether.
They were just concurrentlystudying the same thing at the
same time, and Chadwickpublished first.
Arpita (23:16):
So that's what I exactly what I was just going to say is
it's not really clear whathappened.
So it sounds like this field wasreally exploding.
And when the Julio-Curiespublished and when Chadwick
published happened within just acouple months of each other.
So Ettore really would have hadto jump on it, but he was just
kind of wandering at this point.
(23:37):
He wasn't super excited aboutphysics.
He was sort of dabbling inphilosophy, economics, and he
like couldn't really stick withanything.
And he just like didn't followthrough and publish, even though
all of his lab notes show thathe actually got to the
conclusion faster than JamesChadwick did.
Aarati (23:54):
That's, that's still true today, like publishing your
results are so important.
I think that's why, you know,people have started doing things
like bio archive and stuff whereyou can just publish without
peer review because the peerreview process takes forever and
then you might get scooped onyour result.
And I mean, I don't know what itwas like back in the 19, what is
(24:16):
this, 40s, 50s, something.
I don't know.
30s?
Yeah, so I don't know how fastit or how easy and fast it was
to publish then, but just goesto show even back then you
needed to be on it.
You needed to publish.
Otherwise, you know, your namekind of gets lost in obscurity.
Arpita (24:34):
Completely agree.
And that's what happened to him.
And understandably, Fermi waspretty upset by this.
Aarati (24:40):
Oh, yeah, I bet.
He's like, you had it.
You had it in your hands and youjust, what, what were you doing?
Arpita (24:48):
No, exactly.
Um, so then in 1937, theUniversity of Rome opened up
some new positions for physicschairs and Fermi encouraged
Ettore to go for one of thesejobs.
And this finally got him alittle bit out of his slump.
So he wrote and submitted apaper called"The Symmetrical
(25:08):
Theory of the Electron andPositron".
He didn't get the job, butthere's also a little bit of
controversy about this paper.
Some historians suggested thatFermi might have written the
paper himself and submitted iton Ettore's behalf.
Aarati (25:24):
Oh.
Arpita (25:25):
Yeah.
And this is debated byphysicists who think that
Fermi's writings and learningson neutrons don't match Ettore's
lab notes from the same period,so that they weren't actually
thinking about and researchingthe same topics around the same
period of time.
So it doesn't really make sensethat Fermi would have written
it.
Aarati (25:45):
Oh, interesting.
Arpita (25:46):
Also, They were writing most things by hand, and people
have compared the lab notes andnotes written by Ettore with the
same things that he wrote in thepaper, and they don't really
think it could be Fermi.
Um, and finally, really justfrom a humanity standpoint,
Fermi was a really big name.
Like, he was kind of famous,even for his contemporaries.
Aarati (26:08):
Yeah.
Arpita (26:10):
Probably had a big ego and so like reasonably he
wouldn't have passed off hiswork as someone else's even if
he actually cared about Ettorelike it seems kind of crazy that
that would have happened sohistorians think that Fermi
wrote it but then physicistskind of push back and they think
that there's no chance.
Aarati (26:25):
That's so weird.
I, on one hand, I can't reallyimagine someone like Enrico
Fermi, you know, applying for ajob on behalf of somebody else.
Arpita (26:36):
It seems kind crazy like it doesn't
Aarati (26:37):
it does seem a bit crazy.
Arpita (26:39):
Yeah.
Aarati (26:40):
Yeah.
Like, I can imagine pushing fora job and putting in a really
strong recommendation orsomething, but actually going
behind your back and likeputting in that kind of effort
to try and apply for a job forsomeone.
Yeah, that's a bit crazy.
Arpita (26:56):
No, totally.
I agree with you.
But ultimately the reason thathe didn't get the job wasn't
because the paper wasn'treceived well, or people didn't
like the paper.
It was because the facultythought that he had such a
singular, narrow level ofexpertise that he was offered a
different position instead.
Aarati (27:13):
Oh, ok.
Arpita (27:14):
He started teaching quantum mechanics at the Naples
Physics Institute in January1938.
And he was so brilliant thatmost of his peers, like other
physicists, couldn't reallyfollow him, let alone his
students.
So he did not make an effort toexplain really anything in
detail to his students.
So his students really hated himbecause they never knew what he
(27:36):
was talking about.
He was just saying words
Aarati (27:39):
Those professors are the worst.
Arpita (27:42):
Those Yeah Ettore was for sure one of them.
Aarati (27:44):
Oh, no, that's, that's so sad.
That's terrible.
I'm sorry to whoever was hisstudent then.
It's like, you know, they'rebrilliant, but at the same
time...
Arpita (27:53):
You're like, come on.
Yeah.
Aarati (27:55):
like, what are you even talking about?
I just want to pass my midterm,please.
That's all I want.
It's I want.
Arpita (28:00):
Those people for sure just belong in the lab.
Like, yeah.
Um, so around the same time ashe's teaching at the Naples
Physics Institute, he istheorizing about another
particle, the neutrino, and thisis what he eventually becomes
most famous for.
So, um, In the early 1930s,there was another scientist,
Wolfgang Pauli, who was studyingbeta decay, which is a process
(28:24):
where unstable atomic nucleusreleases an electron.
And the experiments that he wasdoing show something strange.
So the energy of the emittedelectron wasn't always the same
and kind of seemed to defy thelaw of conservation of energy.
Aarati (28:42):
Okay.
Arpita (28:43):
So Pauli suggested that there was maybe a new unseen
particle that was emittedalongside the electron during
beta decay.
And he called this particle aneutrino which would help make
up for missing energy duringthese experiments.
So there's something else beingreleased with the electron to
(29:05):
account for energy that was notbeing conserved along this
emission and the neutrino.
Aarati (29:12):
Okay.
Arpita (29:13):
And building on this idea, Ettore was looking at all
these experiments, looking atall of these results.
And he proposed a differentproperty for this particle and
his theory suggested that aneutrino would indeed solve this
problem and that it has thesereally unique qualities in which
(29:33):
it can be its own antiparticle.
That's the cool thing aboutneutrinos.
So let's break that down.
Aarati (29:38):
Yes, please.
Like, okay.
You lost me now.
Yeah.
Arpita (29:44):
So what an antiparticle is, is we have protons, which
are a positive charge, and thenthey have an antiparticle, which
are electrons because they are anegative charge.
So there is like an equal andopposite component.
Aarati (29:57):
Yes.
Arpita (29:58):
Neutrinos can be their own antiparticle.
So you have a neutrino neutrinoand they can serve as particle
and antiparticle.
Aarati (30:05):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
So neutrino is different than aneutron because a neutron just
has a neutral charge, but aneutrino is one or like, it's
like a pair almost.
Like you have two neutrinos thatone is kind of positive, one of
it's negative
Arpita (30:23):
I don't think it's a charge.
I think that particles andantiparticles is like you're
trying to balance out thescales.
It doesn't always have to be acharge.
Aarati (30:32):
Okay.
Arpita (30:33):
Does that make sense?
Aarati (30:34):
Yes.
I'm just trying to see if Ican...
Arpita (30:36):
Tell me if you found something.
Aarati (30:38):
Yeah, I'm, I'm still looking it up.
It just says it's electricallyneutral, so it doesn't look like
it's a charge.
Um, Yeah, we're starting to getinto words I don't know.
They're like talking aboutleptons and stuff.
I'm like, what the heck?
Arpita (30:52):
Yeah no.
See, I tried to research this somuch and then I was like, I
think I'm just going to keep itsimple on purpose.
Aarati (30:58):
Yeah, Oh, so there's neutrinos and antineutrinos.
And they have an oppositelysigned lepton number.
Arpita (31:07):
Yeah.
See, it's not charge.
It's not, charge, but it's likesomething that gives it an equal
and opposite property.
Aarati (31:13):
Okay.
It's a conserved quantum numberrepresenting the difference
between the number of leptonsand anti leptons.
Wow.
This is...
Arpita (31:21):
I have no idea what a lepton is, but yes.
Aarati (31:23):
This is like those dictionary like definitions
where they're like, what is abuilder?
And it's like someone who buildsand it's like, thanks.
That's really helpful.
If I don't know what, what it's,that's kind of like the problem
I'm running into.
Arpita (31:39):
I want to make it clear that I chose this person for the
true crime and not for thephysics.
Aarati (31:44):
Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Okay.
So in this particular episode,the science is a little bit
secondary because we have a veryexciting story.
Arpita (31:54):
Less secondary and more like we are limiting factor here
is my understanding oftheoretical physics.
Aarati (32:00):
Of quantum physics?
Arpita (32:02):
Yeah, that's what we're limited by.
Aarati (32:06):
You know, maybe we can in the future invite a guest on
and be like, okay, let's revisitthis episode...
Arpita (32:11):
Can you explain this to us?
Yeah,
Aarati (32:12):
explain the science to us, please.
Thanks.
Arpita (32:15):
Tell me all the things that I said wrong because there
was probably 3000.
Aarati (32:18):
Okay.
So we have neutrinos andantineutrinos and that is
special because they kind ofbalance each other out.
Arpita (32:26):
Yes.
Um, and they can modulate theamount of energy emitted.
So they can help make up formissing energy and account for
the laws of conservation ofenergy.
Aarati (32:38):
Okay.
Arpita (32:38):
This is what Ettore eventually becomes the most
famous for in his physicsdiscoveries.
So in 1938, he takes a dipemotionally again.
He starts having his GI issuesagain.
He starts becoming reallyreclusive.
And even at his very best, hewas very introverted and shy,
(33:01):
but then he stopped speaking andsocializing.
And.
At one point on March 25th, hewithdrew all of his money from
the bank, and he sent a note tohis boss, the director of the
Naples Physics Institute wherehe was teaching, and he said,
quote,"I have made a decisionthat was by now inevitable.
(33:23):
It doesn't contain a singlespeck of selfishness, but I do
recognize the inconvenience thatmy unanticipated disappearance
may cause to the students andyourself.
For this too, I beg you toforgive me, but above all, for
having betrayed the trust, thesincere friendship, and the
sympathy that you have so kindlyoffered me over the past few
months.
(33:43):
I beg you to, also, to rememberme, but all those I've come to
know and appreciate at yourInstitute in particular.
But of all, I shall preserve thedearest memories at least until
11 o'clock this evening andpossibly beyond." End quote.
Aarati (33:59):
Oh no.
Arpita (34:02):
But then, he followed this letter with a telegram and
he told the, he told thedirector to disregard the
message.
Aarati (34:12):
I still have concerns.
Alright?
Arpita (34:13):
And then, and then, he wrote another letter, this time
to his family, that read, quote,"I've got a single wish that you
do not wear black for me.
If you want to bow to custom,then bear some sign of mourning,
but for no more than three days.
After that, remember me, if youcan, in your hearts, and forgive
me." End quote.
(34:35):
However, he never actually sentthis to his family.
Aarati (34:38):
Oh, okay.
But.
Oh, no.
But that's, that's really goodmind space.
Like, I, I have seriousconcerns.
I got that telegram as the headof this institute, I would be
like, okay, we need to go...
Arpita (34:52):
Yes.
Aarati (34:52):
...find him right now.
Arpita (34:53):
Okay, so you and the director are thinking exactly
the same.
And this is where the true crimebit of this story starts to come
into play.
So I think for most people,these sort of read as a suicide
note.
And There are some tricky partsto this story though.
So first, these were written inItalian, so the English
(35:14):
translations are kind of hard toevaluate.
So a lot of historians have saidthat he uses some words that in
Italian have no directtranslation to English, so it's
hard to sort of evaluate as anEnglish speaker.
He also never mentions the worddeath at all in Italian or
English.
And some people have said thatthere are some handwriting
(35:36):
characteristics that suicidenotes usually have, but Ettore's
letters, both to Director andhis family, don't have this.
His handwriting is very clean,with strong lines, and doesn't
have any irregularity thatsuicide notes often have.
Aarati (35:52):
Oh, cause like people are, when they're contemplating
they might be a little emotionaland shaky maybe.
And so comes through in theirhandwriting, but his writing
seemed very resolved, it soundslike?
Arpita (36:06):
That's what it sounds like.
I actually didn't know thatthere were handwriting
characteristics for suicidenotes, but that actually is a
thing.
Aarati (36:13):
It makes sense though.
Arpita (36:15):
Yeah, I think it's also a, um, What is the word I'm
looking for?
Oh, like a forensic thing too,to decide if someone wrote the
note versus someone wrote it onyour behalf, uh, to make sure it
actually is a suicide and tomake sure that there's some
things that happen inhandwriting that are specific to
people with suicide notes.
Aarati (36:36):
interesting.
Arpita (36:36):
I didn't really understand the details, but
apparently that seems to be thecase.
Aarati (36:40):
Yeah.
I bet it's another whole fieldof study.
Arpita (36:43):
Probably.
Aarati (36:43):
But I mean, just the language that he used of like,
you know, until 11 o'clocktonight and yeah, that's like
even if he didn't say the worddeath or anything, like that's
still
Arpita (36:56):
Right.
Aarati (36:56):
Very, very concerning language.
Arpita (36:58):
Very alarming.
So then the day after he wrotethese two notes, Ettore checked
into a hotel in Palermo and thenhe wrote other notes that were
far less grave, but stillconcerning.
So he first telegrammed his bossagain, a note that said, quote,
"Don't be alarmed.
A letter follows." end quote.
(37:18):
That letter did arrive soonafter, and that read, quote,"I
hope that my letter and telegramhave reached you together.
The sea has rejected me, andtomorrow I will return to the
Hotel Bologna,"-going, he'sgoing back to the Naples
Institute-"perhaps travelingtogether with the same letter.
I have, however, decided to giveup teaching.
(37:38):
Don't take me for an Ibsenheroine, because the case is
quite different.
I am at your disposal forfurther details." End quote.
So, obviously, this director isvery concerned, and he calls
Ettore's family immediately.
Aarati (37:52):
Yeah, it sounds like he tried to drown himself, right?
The sea has rejected me?
Arpita (37:57):
Think it's because Naples is on the sea.
I think it's because he hasphysically left the seaside.
Aarati (38:02):
Oh, I see.
Okay.
Okay.
Arpita (38:04):
Yeah.
Um, and he's saying, I'm goingto come back tomorrow is what
say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you're on the right trackthough.
So the director calls Ettore'sfamily immediately and his
family went to Ettore'sapartment and found the note
that he wrote to his familysitting on the desk that he
never sent.
Aarati (38:23):
Mm-hmm.
Arpita (38:24):
And then after March 26th, 1938, no one had contact
with Ettore.
So there is documentation thathe took a ship from Palermo to
Naples.
He's going back and while on theship, he talked to another
professor from the University ofNaples briefly.
And this man is only importantbecause he is supposedly the
(38:45):
last person to ever talk toEttore.
There is no evidence that Ettoredisembarked from the ship.
And some people say that henever boarded the ship at all.
So regardless, they start asearch.
The Majorana family offered areward of 30, 000 Lire.
And Benito Mussolini, who wasthe prime minister at the time,
(39:06):
was contacted both by theMajorana family and Enrico
Fermi, with pleas to search forEttore, and Fermi especially,
really, uh, made the case thathe was so important to science
and the advancement of Italy asa nation and Fermi said, quote,
"I do not hesitate to declare,and this is not hyperbole, that
(39:28):
of all the Italian and foreignscholars who I had the
opportunity to meet, Majorana isthe one who, for depth of
genius, has impressed me themost." End quote.
Aarati (39:37):
This is literally like if Albert Einstein went missing
or something.
Oh my gosh.
Like, you've got the PrimeMinister of Italy in on this
search now.
Arpita (39:47):
Yeah.
Aarati (39:47):
This is crazy.
Arpita (39:49):
It is crazy.
And so they continue this searchfor a while, and they find no
trace.
And the last police note wasfiled on August 6th, 1938.
And in December of the sameyear, the University of Naples
made a formal decree that Ettorehad resigned on March 25th,
which is the day that he wrotethat first letter to the
(40:10):
director.
And They cited abandonment ofduty.
I'm not super clear why they hadto do this.
I'm like, people think he's deadat this point, but think just
for their, like, internalpurposes, they had to, like,
make this decree that he is,like, no longer in this post so
they can open up the positionagain.
Aarati (40:25):
Oh, that makes sense.
Yeah.
Arpita (40:28):
So he disappeared without a trace.
And I think with a lot ofstories that are like this, like
a missing person case, there arelots of theories about what
could have happened to him.
So the most obvious one is thathe died by suicide and the notes
that he wrote his family and hisboss, like we said, definitely
seem like they are suicidenotes.
(40:49):
However, his family wasinsistent that as a devout
Catholic, he never would havecommitted the sin of taking his
life.
And because they'd never found abody, the reigning theory is
that he jumped into the seawhile on a boat from Palermo to
Naples.
So that's why I was sayingearlier, I was like, I think he
hasn't jumped yet because heletter.
Yes.
And then there's record of himboarding the boat.
(41:11):
So it couldn't have happenedthen, but it might've happened
after.
Aarati (41:14):
But that's still a really good point about him
being Catholic, you know, andhow it is such a sin to take
your life.
That is a very strong...
Arpita (41:22):
yep.
Aarati (41:22):
...point in that favor.
Arpita (41:24):
It is a strong point.
And so to the Catholic point,because he was so well known as
a Catholic, there's anothertheory that he left to go be a
monk and join a monastery.
And during this time period, aman matching Ettore's
description went to a church inNaples and asked to be admitted
into the religious order there.
(41:45):
And there were apparently somelogistics that needed to be
worked out for him to join, sohe just thanked them and
disappeared.
And another theory related tohis faith, there was a member of
the clergy who had takenEttore's confession in church
many, many times, and theytalked this guy.
And this member of the clergysaid that Ettore had often had
(42:08):
crises of faith, but thatsuicide was entirely out of the
question.
So both of these ideas, themonastery idea and the fact that
he, this clergy member said thatthis is out of the question,
hinge on this idea that Ettoresaw the destructive power and
(42:28):
the work that was being done intheoretical physics, and that
drove him away from the fieldthat he so excelled in and he
didn't really have any desireto, like, be a part of it.
Aarati (42:42):
Yeah.
But, okay, so I get maybe hedidn't commit suicide, but then
on the other hand, if he didn't,and if he decided, I'm just
gonna disappear or something,it's an awfully cruel thing to
do to your family, to just upand disappear and like, leave a
note like that, knowing thatthat's the last correspondence
that they're gonna have fromyou, like, to just If you're,
(43:04):
even if you're just like, I'mjust going to disappear and I
can't kill myself because I'mCatholic and that's a sin.
So I'm just going to join amonastery or I'm just going to
up and disappear.
And to not let your family know,like, Hey, I'm okay.
I just don't want you to contactme, but I'm all right.
I'm alive.
I'm doing my thing.
Please leave me alone.
(43:25):
Just so that they have thatpeace of mind.
is, I don't know, like, so thenthat pushes me back towards,
like, he must have committedsuicide then because, like, who
would do that to their familyand the people he's worked with?
Like, that's crazy to me.
Both theories seem equallyimplausible at this point, so
now I'm like, also, I don't knowwhat happened.
Arpita (43:46):
Okay.
Because I have more theories foryou.
Aarati (43:47):
Great.
Yes please.
I need more.
Arpita (43:49):
So, continuing on the fact that he was maybe not
interested in this destructivepower of physics.
So some people are convincedthat Ettore decided to disappear
because he saw that nuclearforces would lead to nuclear
explosives that were many, manymore times powerful than
conventional bombs.
And then he just wanted nothingto do with the field.
However, other physicists,physicists claim that given the
(44:13):
state of the field at the time,and the fact that particle
physics was just gettingstarted, there's no way that
anyone could have predicted thata heavy nucleus could be broken
down to trigger nuclear fission.
They're like, there's no way youwould have made that leap.
Aarati (44:28):
Even if you were the Italian Albert Einstein?
Arpita (44:31):
These are just theories..
Aarati (44:32):
Yeah.
Arpita (44:33):
Another idea that's become a little bit more popular
is that he may have actuallybeen murdered by Nazis.
So Ettore, as you might rememberearlier from our story, worked
very closely from WernerHeisenberg, who eventually
worked on Germany's nuclearweapons project during the
second world war.
And this was based on some ofthe science that they worked on
(44:55):
together.
So people who support thistheory believe that because
Ettore became kind of a looseend because he kind of
disappeared.
He went from there toCopenhagen, um, was just after
that because he just kinda aloose end
Aarati (45:12):
That's an interesting theory, but then at the same
time, those letters really justgive me pause.
Like, what a coincidence thatyou wrote those letters about
how you're, murdered you.
and then yeah, and it just sohappens that at that time,
that's when, yeah, oh my gosh,it just, it's such a mystery.
That's so confusing.
Arpita (45:29):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Okay, so then, like a lot ofmissing person cases, there's
all these potential sightingsthat people report.
Aarati (45:39):
Mm-hmm.
Arpita (45:40):
He was allegedly spotted in a convent in Portici, Italy
on April 12th.
So this was about two weeksafter he originally disappeared
and he reportedly came there andasked to join the religious
order.
And then much, much later in the1970s, a number of sightings
were reported in Argentina.
Aarati (46:01):
Okay.
But this would have been like 30years later, right?
Arpita (46:04):
30 years many years later, Yeah.
It got resurrected.
One of these sightings, whichwas reported by a Chilean
physicist, Carlo Rivera Cruchagaand he said that he met a woman
named Mrs.
Talbert, who claimed to knowEttore in Buenos Aires in 1951.
And that this woman who told himthat Ettore was friends with her
(46:27):
son, identified him in a photothat Rivera had with him.
Aarati (46:32):
Oh.
Arpita (46:33):
So Rivera returned to Buenos Aires in 1954 and was
trying to meet Ettore.
And then he found out that Mrs.
Talbert was no longer livingthere and couldn't find her.
He went back again in 1961, andthen this time he said that he
saw a waiter who was able toconfirm that Ettore would come
(46:55):
in and work on physics equationsand mention another scientist
who would sit and work with himas well.
So then these rumors startedthat he had this whole new life
in South America, that he'd beenthere for years, and some of
these sightings seemed to backit up.
Aarati (47:10):
Interesting.
Arpita (47:11):
Then in 2008, another piece of evidence emerged and a
man named Francesco Fassanicalled into the Italian news
program, Who Has Seen It?
And he claimed to have a photoof Ettore, although he knew this
man as"Mr.
Bini".
And Fassani said that the manthat he met in Venezuela in 1955
(47:32):
was in his fifties, was very shyand very refined in his manners.
And this matches because thistheoretical man, Mr.
Bini was about the same age thatEttore would have been and had
similar like shy demeanor asprevious accounts.
This sighting reopened a case inRome in 2011.
(47:56):
And they used facial recognitionsoftware to show that there was
10 points of facial structure onthe photo of the mystery man,
Mr.
Bini, that coincided with aknown photo of Ettore.
And based on this, a publicprosecutor ruled that Ettore had
indeed lived in Venezuela andwas able to say that his death
(48:17):
was not due to homicide orsuicide.
Aarati (48:20):
Wait.
So they think they found him?
Arpita (48:22):
Yeah, they think they found him.
Aarati (48:24):
Did they do any, like, further testing?
Maybe you're going to get tothat.
But, like, just off the picture?
Like,
Arpita (48:29):
Just a picture.
Aarati (48:30):
Like, DNA,
Arpita (48:32):
They didn't have DNA.
They just had this photo.
This random dude said that heknew him in the fifties
Aarati (48:38):
Mm hmm.
Arpita (48:39):
And he called it in 2008 and said, I have a picture of
this guy.
Aarati (48:43):
Oh my God.
Okay.
Okay.
And that's like, the onlyevidence they have.
Arpita (48:47):
It's the only evidence they have.
Aarati (48:48):
I don't know if I believe it, but ok.
Yes.
Arpita (48:51):
So you're with a lot of other people.
Um, Not everyone accepts thisruling.
Some people really buy thereligious crisis thing.
Um, they're really just like notinto the fact that he just like
up and moved.
They're like, this sighting isnot conclusive.
Like, I don't think we can makethis claim.
So the bottom line isregardless, we don't know how he
ended up dying.
Um, he's almost certainly deadby now, given the fact that he
(49:14):
was born in 1906.
So
Aarati (49:18):
yeah.
Arpita (49:18):
But
Aarati (49:19):
The world's oldest physicist.
Arpita (49:21):
Yeah, like, we don't know how he died eventually, um,
and there's so many unansweredquestions, like, why did he
leave so unceremoniously, like,even if he had all these other
things, like, what was thereason, like, what were his
motives, and I just said, wehave no idea how his life
ultimately ended.
And something that I was readingalso, which I thought was a nice
(49:41):
conclusion for this is that hecame from this family of really
high achievers and wassurrounded by the top scientists
of the time.
And so many of these people hadhuge egos and, like, couldn't
bear the idea of someone, like,usurping them.
Um, and there's just so muchthat he could have done, just,
(50:03):
like, didn't happen.
And he, like, would have beenright there with household names
based on how brilliant he was.
But yeah, we just don't know.
We don't know what could havebeen.
Aarati (50:13):
But does give me another, like, a little bit of
an answer maybe.
Like, if he did leave his familyand he did leave all the people
he was working with, he mighthave just been buckling under
pressure, you know?
And I I could see that, I guess.
Like, if he didn't want todisappoint his family, he didn't
want to disappoint the people hewas working with by saying that
(50:35):
"I don't want to work on thesephysics problems anymore," for
whatever reason, either he sawthat it was going to be used for
bad purposes in the future, orhe didn't, and he was just over
it, and he was just like, I'mnot interested in working on
this anymore, it's just all toomuch for me, but how do I tell
my high achieving family andlike the people around me who
(50:56):
expect so much from that I'mjust not into it anymore,
there's no way they would acceptthat as an answer.
So rather than face thatdisappointment I'm just going
to, I'm just going to peace offto South America.
Bye guys.
So I, like, on the one hand, Ican't see someone doing that to
their family and their lovedones, but on the other hand,
(51:19):
yeah, if he was feeling a lot ofguilt and shame, I think I could
see it.
So, it's such a mystery.
Arpita (51:26):
But yeah, that's the case of Ettore Majorana.
We don't, we don't know.
We don't know what happened tothis guy, but...
Aarati (51:35):
That is fascinating.
I would, I would almost assumethat, like, the fact that he
disappeared without a tracewould make him even more of a
household name.
Arpita (51:44):
Yeah like an Amelia Earhart situation.
Aarati (51:46):
Yeah exactly! That's so weird that I've never heard of
him before.
And he was right up there withEnrico Fermi and Niels Bohr and
all these people.
And I would just assume I wouldhave known him even more because
of the fact that he disappearedunder such mysterious
circumstances.
So It's really weird he was kindof lost to time.
What a great story.
(52:07):
I'm fascinated now.
Arpita (52:08):
I'm glad you like the little true crime crossover.
Aarati (52:10):
Yeah.
I think I'm going to go into arabbit hole after this.
Like trying to figure out allthe things like I'm going to,
I'm going to learn Italian.
I'm going to be like reading theoriginal letter.
Arpita (52:19):
This was like a, a good story to bookend my Italian
summer trip.
Aarati (52:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Go see if you can visit theUniversity of Naples.
Go see if you can track himdown.
Arpita (52:29):
Yeah, Seriously.
Aarati (52:30):
Find his family, do some interviews.
Oh my gosh., Amazing, amazingstory.
That was great.
Arpita (52:36):
Great, I'm glad you liked it.
Aarati (52:39):
Thanks for listening.
If you have a suggestion for astory we should cover, or
thoughts you want to share aboutan episode, reach out to us at
smarttpodcast.
com.
You can follow us on Instagramand Twitter at smarttpodcast,
and listen to us on Spotify,Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
And leave us a rating orcomment.
It really helps us grow.
(52:59):
New episodes are released everyother Wednesday.
See you next time.
Notice for our listeners, this episode contains
mentions of suicide.
Aarati (00:16):
Hi everyone.
And welcome back to the SmartTea podcast, where we talk about
the lives of scientists andinnovators who shape the world.
I'm Aarati.
Arpita (00:24):
I'm Arpita.
Aarati (00:26):
How are you doing?
Arpita (00:27):
I am very busy this week.
Aarati (00:31):
Yeah?
Arpita (00:32):
I'm heading to Italy tomorrow.
And so, my life is fully in thethroes of pre- trip drama.
Like, all the random things thatyou need to do before you head
out on like a long trip, um, sothe to do list is just like, I
got to finish my laundry, I gotto figure out watching the cats.
(00:54):
I got to figure out like mypacking list and what I'm
wearing.
And oh, my God, so many things.
Aarati (00:59):
Have you ever been to Italy?
Arpita (01:02):
I have been to Italy.
Um, we're going to Como and I'venever been to Como.
So, uh, yes, that's the otherthing.
So I'm just like, oh, it's goingto be so hot.
What am I going to wear?
My wardrobe is for SanFrancisco.
Aarati (01:14):
Yes.
Yes.
Arpita (01:17):
Then I was Googling yesterday.
I was like, are there going tobe mosquitoes?
And then Google gave me varyingresponses.
I'm like, okay, well now I gotto get bug spray.
Aarati (01:24):
Oh my gosh.
You know what, though?
I just saw this thing on TikTokwhere someone said that if you
just put vanilla extract andwater in a spray bottle and
spray it, the mosquitoes willstay away from you.
And I have not tried it, butthey are swearing by it.
It's like some girl who lives inFlorida and who swears that
every summer she's been eatenalive by mosquitoes.
(01:46):
And then she saw this hack andshe tried it.
Cause she was like, I've triedevery other bug spray on the
market.
And all it is is vanilla extractand water mixed together and
she's
Arpita (01:56):
What?
Aarati (01:56):
It's amazing and she put a little like cinnamon stick in
there and she's like, I smellgreat.
The mosquitoes aren't botheringme at all.
So I don't know.
You could try it and see if itis true.
Because if so, that soundsamazing.
Yeah.
Arpita (02:11):
Okay.
Well, I want to try that simplybecause I would love to smell
like vanilla and not like
Aarati (02:17):
Right?
Arpita (02:18):
sticky bug spray.
Yeah.
Aarati (02:19):
What's the worst...
Like even if it doesn't work,you'll smell amazing.
So there you go.
Arpita (02:24):
Great hack.
I'm looking into that.
Um, but yeah, that's what'shappening in my life.
What about you?
What's up with you?
Aarati (02:30):
I mean, not much.
I am really trying not to getweighed down by the political
climate of today
Arpita (02:37):
God.
Aarati (02:37):
and right now.
Even
Arpita (02:38):
want to bring it up.
I didn't want you.
Aarati (02:39):
I know I know I'm just like watching the news and
people are going crazy.
There's all these conspiracytheories, and I'm just sitting
here, like, what has the worldcome to?
And I'm also, I have like anintern that I'm working with
right now who's writing blogpieces, but he wants to go into
politics.
(03:00):
And I'm just like, why, why, Imean, we need people like you
who will go and fight the goodfight.
Arpita (03:08):
We need like young, smart, talented people.
Aarati (03:11):
We really do, we need people so badly.
So I admire those people, but Ialso can't fathom it.
Cause I'm really the type ofperson who just buries their
head in the sand and it's justlike, I don't see all this
stuff.
I don't see all this crazinessthat's happening.
Please.
I live in you know, very liberalbubble and I'm very happy here.
Please
Arpita (03:30):
Yeah, I know.
It's so hard.
And then I also feel like I'mvery sensitive.
So then I feel like the newsaffects me so deeply.
And so then I have to alsomoderate my consumption.
So I totally feel you.
Aarati (03:42):
Yeah.
It gives me so much anxiety.
So I'm just trying really hardto like, I want, I'm in this
weird place where I want to beinformed about what's happening
in the world, but at the sametoken, I need to take my mental
health into consideration andjust.
You know, so, um, I dunno, butyeah, that's, that's kind of
(04:03):
just what's been happening.
I'm, I feel just a little bitmore like it's a little bit more
close to home because of, theintern that I'm helping right
now.
So I have to think about thepolitics a little bit more and
I'm trying to stay focused moreon the storytelling and how to,
like, guide him towards making amore compelling story and things
like that, rather than what thestory is actually about.
(04:25):
So yeah.
Anyway, speaking of stories,
Arpita (04:29):
I was going to say, I have a, I think I have a good
one for you that you're going tolike.
Aarati (04:35):
Okay, yes, that'll take my mind off of what's happening
in the world.
Maybe transport us to a timewhen scientific discovery was,
applauded and admired?
Arpita (04:48):
Yeah, I think you're gonna like this one.
So, the star of our story todayis about Ettore Majorana, and he
is an Italian physicist whoworked on theoretical physics
right as it was getting started.
But he disappeared under verymysterious circumstances.
So we're getting a little truecrime-y on Smart Tea today.
Aarati (05:10):
Excellent.
Arpita (05:11):
It's not a full murder mystery, but you know, it's like
a missing person.
There's some intrigue.
Aarati (05:18):
Well, the first podcasts I started listening to,
honestly, were true crimepodcasts.
When I was listening, when I waslike working in the lab, I was
like, these true crime podcastsjust make the time go so fast.
So I'm excited that the twoworlds are kind of coming
together.
Arpita (05:33):
I know.
That's what I was thinking oftoo.
Um, okay.
So Ettore was born in Catania,Italy, which is just outside
Mount Etna on August 5th, 1906.
His mother Doreena was from avery wealthy family and he was
raised in this beautiful homewith lots of luxuries.
And he came from this verycrazy, talented, and smart
(05:55):
family.
So his uncle, Angelo, was verytalented and precocious, and he
became a lawyer at 16,
Aarati (06:05):
Oh my God.
Arpita (06:06):
Got appointed to be assistant professor at the
University of Catania when hewas 17.
He published so many books.
His uncle Quirino Majorana was aphysicist at Bologna University,
and he was really close toEttore.
Aarati (06:21):
So this is another uncle.
Arpita (06:23):
Different uncle.
Aarati (06:24):
He has a lawyer uncle and now a professor uncle.
Arpita (06:26):
A physicist uncle.
Yeah.
Um, this uncle was best knownfor rejecting Einstein's theory
of relativity, and he performeda lot of experiments to disprove
it.
Etorre's father, Fabio Massimohad really high expectations for
his family.
And he also came from a very,high achieving background.
(06:49):
He was a successful engineer andbusinessman.
Aarati (06:52):
Oh, wow.
Are these all like threebrothers?
Arpita (06:55):
The two uncles are the mom's brothers.
Aarati (06:58):
Wow.
that's some genetic stock you'recoming from.
Yeah.
Arpita (07:05):
He had four other siblings, Rosina, Salvatore,
Luciano, and Maria.
He was the fourth of five Hissiblings were all also very
brilliant, but I think that thatwould go down quite the rabbit
hole.
So, um.
he grew up very kind of timidand shy.
(07:26):
He was a little weird andoverall this was a very close
knit, like I said, brilliantfamily.
This is a very, very brilliantfamily.
Aarati (07:35):
Mm hmm.
So far this is sounding ideal.
This is like a wealthy family inItaly where everyone is just so
smart and probably beautiful.
Like, that's what I'm imaginingin my head anyway, that
Arpita (07:48):
It's honestly pretty right.
That's, that's, we're settingthe stage.
Aarati (07:51):
Okay, great.
Arpita (07:52):
So, like most kids during this time period, he was
initially educated at home, andthen he was sent to a Jesuit
boarding school in Rome with hisbrothers.
And that being said, homeschoolisn't what you would probably
think of with like a governess.
It was actually really rigorousbecause, as mentioned, their dad
had very, very high standardsfor them.
(08:14):
And he was known for beingreally tough on his kids,
especially when it came toacademics.
So he probably got a reallythorough education, even though
he was homeschooled.
When he was in high school, hetransferred to another school in
Rome to finish his preuniversity education.
And the family also moved toRome so that Ettore could finish
his education while still livingwith his family.
Aarati (08:37):
Okay.
Arpita (08:37):
He got his diploma in 1923 and then thought he was
going to be an engineer, justlike his father.
So he enrolled in this two yearprogram at the University of
Rome to prepare for engineeringschool.
And so for the next two years,he worked in this engineering
program.
Um, I did find something funnythat was, that said that
(08:58):
hydraulics was a class that wasreally hard for him to pass, but
he was a brilliant studenteverywhere else, which I thought
was kind of funny.
It's like, at least he washuman.
Like, there was something thatwasn't good at.
Aarati (09:10):
Hydraulics is his kryptonite.
Arpita (09:12):
Yeah, I guess.
Aarati (09:13):
Great.
I mean, hopefully we all havesomething like that at
Arpita (09:16):
Yeah.
I feel like I have many, but...
Aarati (09:19):
Yeah, at least one.
Arpita (09:21):
At least one.
Yeah.
And then now we hit thisinflection point in his life.
He meets a man named EmilioSegre.
For maybe people who havealready heard of him, he won the
Nobel Prize in physics, lateron, but he became very good
friends with Ettore.
So Emilio convinced Ettore thathe should leave engineering and
(09:44):
do physics with him, studyphysics instead.
Aarati (09:47):
Okay, what did he win the Nobel Prize in physics for?
Arpita (09:50):
Don't remember.
You can look it up.I
Aarati (09:55):
Emilio, uh, Nobel Prize, I feel like I'm going to look it
up and I'm not going to knowanyway.
Emilio Gino Segre, you said?
okay, I'm looking it up.
He won the 1959 Nobel Prize inphysics for his discovery of the
antiproton.
Which is an antiparticle withthe same mass as a proton, but
the opposite electrical charge.
(10:17):
Interesting.
Okay.
I feel like I haven't studiedthe parts of an atom since high
school.
Arpita (10:23):
Uh, as we will discover, neither have I.
So,
Aarati (10:26):
Great.
Great.
This this is really giving likeEmmy Noether vibes.
Arpita (10:31):
Emmy Noether?
Yeah, I, I really tried my best,um, to understand the physics
here.
I apologize in advance as we getto it a little bit later, but
Aarati (10:42):
We're not physicists..
Arpita (10:43):
We're, we're explaining this through biologist lens.
We're trying our best.
Aarati (10:48):
Yeah.
We really are.
Um, yeah.
Sorry.
Moving forward.
Arpita (10:54):
That's okay.
So Emilio convinced Ettore tostudy physics with him.
But it's interesting because itseems like Emilio was just kind
of passing the torch becausethere was this famed physics
professor, Enrico Fermi, who didthe same thing for Emilio.
So Emilio also was enrolled inan engineering program, and
Fermi convinced him to join thephysics department and thought
(11:16):
he would be really good at it.
And so then Emilio was like,Ettore, I think you should also
join the physics department.
And he was trying to loop hisfriend in.
Aarati (11:24):
Oh wow.
I have heard of Enrico Fermi.
So,
Arpita (11:27):
Yes.
So, big name in physics.
Um, and so then Emiliointroduced Ettore to Fermi, who
was the professor of theoreticalphysics at the University of
Rome.
So now they're all workingtogether with Fermi, and there's
the story that one of the firstdays he was working with Fermi
(11:48):
in his lab, he was taught thestatistical model of the atom,
and he was given a table ofcalculations that Fermi had done
himself that were associatedwith this model.
And then Ettore came back thenext day with his own sheet of
calculations and asked to lookat Fermi's work.
and told him that he waschecking Fermi's math and wanted
to make sure that thecalculations were correct.
(12:11):
And it seemed like he reallytrusted his own math even
against this like world renownedprofessor.
Aarati (12:16):
Oh, wow.
I mean, on some level, I dounderstand that.
I like, which grad studenthasn't at one point believed
that they know more than theirprofessor?
Arpita (12:26):
I think this is fair.
This is also maybe like one ofhis first days in the lab.
So that seems like kind of wildbehavior when you're still new.
Aarati (12:33):
Yeah, Yeah, that does take a lot of chutzpah.
Arpita (12:36):
It does.
However, there's also a theoryfrom another physicist that I
read that he was maybe justworking out his own way to do
these calculations before hejoined the lab, like he was
already sort of interested inthis and was just trying to line
up if his work was the same asFermi's work.
That is something that otherpeople have posited, but we
Aarati (12:57):
Okay.
Arpita (12:58):
I just thought that was a funny story.
Aarati (12:59):
Yeah, that is pretty funny.
That makes sense, though.
That would make sense if he wasjust kind of checking to see if
he was on the right track withhis own way of doing things.
Yeah.
Arpita (13:08):
So.
It's 1928, he's joining thisphysics program at the
University of Rome, and hebecomes part of this group known
as the Via Panisperna Boys, whowere named for the street where
the physics offices were.
And so this group included hisgood friend, Emilio Segre, and
so many of them were workingtogether under Fermi.
(13:30):
And this group in particular wasworking mainly to advance the
world of particle physics.
And this line of research endedup continuing on and eventually
enabled the development of theatomic bomb, so in nuclear
fission.
So that path of researcheventually led to this, but they
were working on sort of thereally early stages of this
(13:50):
research.
Aarati (13:51):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Arpita (13:52):
Okay.
So now here's where you have tobear with me.
So then in 1929, Ettorecompleted his thesis, which was
titled"The Quantum Mechanics ofRadioactive Nuclei." And so the
focus of his thesis applied thisnewly emerging principle of
quantum mechanics to understandthe behavior of particles that
were admitted during radioactivedecay of atomic nuclei.
(14:16):
So for his thesis, he proposed atheory on alpha decay
specifically, which is aspecific type of radioactive
decay.
And alpha decay is the emissionof a helium nucleus from an
unstable nucleus.
Aarati (14:31):
Okay.
Helium has two protons, right?
Arpita (14:35):
Correct.
Aarati (14:36):
Okay.
And so you have an unstable,hang on.
So you have an unstable atom,and as it decays, it gives off
like two protons.
Is that right?
Which is a helium atom.
Arpita (14:49):
That is my understanding.
But Yeah, I don't know.
This is where I sort of was justlike, this is so beyond my
depth.
I have no idea what's going on.
Aarati (14:58):
Yeah.
It's, it's
Arpita (15:00):
I, I have to say, I tried so hard to understand
this.
And I, at some point...
Aarati (15:06):
Sounds really hard.
Arpita (15:06):
Was just like, what the f is going on?
Okay.
Anyway, so his specific thesisextended this theory of alpha
decay to look at the behavior ofother particles that get emitted
from excited states of nuclei.
So, alpha decay is somethingthat was known where a helium
nucleus is emitted, and he'strying to understand the
(15:28):
behavior of any other particlesemitted during this excited
radioactive state.
Aarati (15:33):
Okay.
So if anything besides helium isbeing emitted by
Arpita (15:38):
Yes.
Aarati (15:39):
decaying nuclei.
Okay.
Yeah.
Seems like a reasonable thing tostudy.
Arpita (15:43):
Great.
Aarati (15:45):
Sure.
Like I'm, yeah, like, cause I'mstill not sure why he, like, I
would wonder why hydrogen is notbeing emitted cause that's only
one proton.
One electron, it would seem likeit would also be emitted, Or is
that just maybe another type ofdecay?
I feel like I'm probably askingquestions that are like, not
that we really need an expert inhere.
Arpita (16:05):
I have no idea.
I was fighting for my lifetrying to figure out all of
these physics, so,
Aarati (16:11):
No, I get that.
Arpita (16:12):
Okay.
So after he published histhesis, he decided to stay at
the University of Rome and hestarted teaching there for the
next four years.
And at this point, he reallybecame considered a master in
this field of theoretical andparticle physics.
So, in 1933, he began a newphase of his career.
(16:34):
The Italian Research Councilgave him a grant to travel to
Leipzig, Germany, where a lot oftheoretical research was
happening.
And so once he was in Germany,he started working with Berner
Heisenberg, who was a leader inquantum mechanics.
And when Heisenberg publishedhis paper on"Quantum Theoretical
Reinterpretation of Kinematicand Mechanical Relations", it
(16:57):
changed the field of physicsreally completely by introducing
this concept of quantummechanics.
And this is, this is reallywhere, Ettore jumped in like he
was really at this pinnacle ofright when this field was
getting started and working withthese amazing, brilliant
scientists.
Aarati (17:13):
Wow.
Arpita (17:14):
summarize,
Aarati (17:15):
late twenties, right?
If my math is correct, like he'salready this amazing genius
master in quantum physics.
Oh my God.
Okay.
Arpita (17:24):
Yeah, yeah.
This guy's for sure a genius.
Aarati (17:26):
Wow.
Go off.
All right.
Arpita (17:29):
So just to summarize quantum mechanics is, and this
is the definition I pulled thisstraight
Aarati (17:34):
Yes.
Yes, please.
That's going to be helpful.
Arpita (17:37):
Yeah.
Is the science dealing with thebehavior of matter and light on
the atomic and subatomic scale.
It attempts to describe andaccount for the properties of
molecules and atoms, as well astheir electrons, protons, and
neutrons, and other particleslike quarks and gluons.
These properties include wavelike duality, where a particle
(17:59):
like an electron can have both awave like and particle like
behavior, quantization, which iswhere certain properties like
energy come in these discretepackets, quants, um, as opposed
to continuous values, and theuncertainty principle where it
is impossible to know both theexact position and momentum of a
(18:20):
particle at the exact same time.
So these are some of the keyprinciples of quantum mechanics.
And just to be clear, this isthe definition in 2024.
All of this science was reallyin its infancy during Ettore's
life, so like they didn'tnecessarily know all of this to
quite that extent.
More just for background, thisis what the field of quantum
(18:40):
mechanics is trying toaccomplish.
Aarati (18:43):
Yeah.
Cause I don't think we even knewabout quarks until at least
like, I feel like that's arelatively recent thing.
And gluons, I haven't even heardof gluons, so.
Arpita (18:55):
So Leipzig was really this cutting edge of theoretical
research and he was right therewith the top scientists.
And he spent the first half of1933 in Leipzig working with
these, with this group.
And then he traveled toCopenhagen to work with a
different physicist, the DanishNiels Henrik David Bohr.
So probably names that I thinkwe, yeah, I know I was going to
(19:16):
say, I feel like we've heard ofa lot of these people before.
Aarati (19:19):
Yes.
Arpita (19:20):
Uh, we'll get to this later, but as I was reading and
researching this episode, a lotof people were saying that his
name would have been right upthere with Marie Curie,
Einstein, Newton, like all thesenames that are like household
level, um, if it wasn't for whathappened to him.
And we will, we'll, we'll get toit.
(19:41):
But a lot of people have likepeople who are contemporaries of
his...
Aarati (19:46):
Mm-hmm.
Arpita (19:46):
...say that he had that level of intelligence and that
level of weight on the physicsfield.
Aarati (19:53):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Now I'm really curious to knowwhat happened.
Arpita (19:57):
So after Copenhagen, after Germany, he goes back to
Rome at the end of 1933 and hestops writing entirely.
He got kind of sick during thesetravels.
He had ongoing digestive GIissues and the doctors that he
saw thought that he had nervousexhaustion, but it never really
(20:19):
went away.
Um, this period of his life is alittle bit quieter and it seems
like he lost himself a littlebit after these travels and it
didn't seem like he was ascompelled by his work or as
driven to teach and learn moreabout physics.
But around the same time, in1932, Irene Joliot-Curie, who is
(20:40):
Marie Curie's daughter, and herhusband, Friedrich, they did
this experiment that had sort ofweird results.
So they bombarded berylliumatoms with alpha particles, also
known as helium nuclei.
Which is probably why it'scalled alpha decay.
Aarati (20:54):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
Arpita (20:56):
That makes sense.
Um, and they observed a new typeof radiation emitted.
They believed that thisradiation consisted of high
energy gamma rays, photons.
Aarati (21:08):
Okay.
Arpita (21:09):
And their experiment also showed that this radiation
could knock protons out ofparaffin wax, which is a
hydrogen rich material withsurprisingly high energy.
And according to the physicsthat they knew at the time,
photons are these little lightparticles that don't have mass.
And so they should not be ableto knock out these particles
(21:29):
that do have mass from theparaffin.
And so the Joliot-Curie'spublished this, but they
mistakenly interpreted theparticles as photons.
Aarati (21:39):
So they thought they were shooting light or like
photon particles at thisparaffin wax and then seeing
protons getting knocked off?
Arpita (21:49):
Close.
So they were bombardingberyllium atoms with alpha
particles.
And they were noticing that thisvery interesting type of
radiation was being emitted.
And so in this case, theythought photons were being
emitted.
Aarati (22:03):
Oh, they thought the photons were being emitted.
Okay.
Arpita (22:06):
Correct.
And then that radiation wasknocking protons out of the
paraffin wax.
Aarati (22:12):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Arpita (22:14):
So it's like a little bit of a, um, sequential thing.
Um, and so they thought thesewere photons and then Ettore
read this paper and he thoughtthat these particles were more
similar mass to protons becausehe was like, you know, laws of
conservation of mass, thatprobably makes more sense.
So he started hypothesizing thatthere is another particle in an
(22:36):
atom.
And today we know these asneutrons and he made this
discovery and he told EnricoFermi about it.
He did all these calculations.
Fermi was like, amazing, greatpublish.
Never published.
And so ultimately this discoverywas credited to James Chadwick
in the UK for discovering theneutron.
Aarati (22:57):
Oh, wow.
So, like, James Chadwick wasdoing probably, like, similar
lines of inquiry, but sinceEttore didn't publish, Chadwick
basically scooped that result.
So they weren't workingtogether.
They were just concurrentlystudying the same thing at the
same time, and Chadwickpublished first.
Arpita (23:16):
So that's what I exactly what I was just going to say is
it's not really clear whathappened.
So it sounds like this field wasreally exploding.
And when the Julio-Curiespublished and when Chadwick
published happened within just acouple months of each other.
So Ettore really would have hadto jump on it, but he was just
kind of wandering at this point.
(23:37):
He wasn't super excited aboutphysics.
He was sort of dabbling inphilosophy, economics, and he
like couldn't really stick withanything.
And he just like didn't followthrough and publish, even though
all of his lab notes show thathe actually got to the
conclusion faster than JamesChadwick did.
Aarati (23:54):
That's, that's still true today, like publishing your
results are so important.
I think that's why, you know,people have started doing things
like bio archive and stuff whereyou can just publish without
peer review because the peerreview process takes forever and
then you might get scooped onyour result.
And I mean, I don't know what itwas like back in the 19, what is
(24:16):
this, 40s, 50s, something.
I don't know.
30s?
Yeah, so I don't know how fastit or how easy and fast it was
to publish then, but just goesto show even back then you
needed to be on it.
You needed to publish.
Otherwise, you know, your namekind of gets lost in obscurity.
Arpita (24:34):
Completely agree.
And that's what happened to him.
And understandably, Fermi waspretty upset by this.
Aarati (24:40):
Oh, yeah, I bet.
He's like, you had it.
You had it in your hands and youjust, what, what were you doing?
Arpita (24:48):
No, exactly.
Um, so then in 1937, theUniversity of Rome opened up
some new positions for physicschairs and Fermi encouraged
Ettore to go for one of thesejobs.
And this finally got him alittle bit out of his slump.
So he wrote and submitted apaper called"The Symmetrical
(25:08):
Theory of the Electron andPositron".
He didn't get the job, butthere's also a little bit of
controversy about this paper.
Some historians suggested thatFermi might have written the
paper himself and submitted iton Ettore's behalf.
Aarati (25:24):
Oh.
Arpita (25:25):
Yeah.
And this is debated byphysicists who think that
Fermi's writings and learningson neutrons don't match Ettore's
lab notes from the same period,so that they weren't actually
thinking about and researchingthe same topics around the same
period of time.
So it doesn't really make sensethat Fermi would have written
it.
Aarati (25:45):
Oh, interesting.
Arpita (25:46):
Also, They were writing most things by hand, and people
have compared the lab notes andnotes written by Ettore with the
same things that he wrote in thepaper, and they don't really
think it could be Fermi.
Um, and finally, really justfrom a humanity standpoint,
Fermi was a really big name.
Like, he was kind of famous,even for his contemporaries.
Aarati (26:08):
Yeah.
Arpita (26:10):
Probably had a big ego and so like reasonably he
wouldn't have passed off hiswork as someone else's even if
he actually cared about Ettorelike it seems kind of crazy that
that would have happened sohistorians think that Fermi
wrote it but then physicistskind of push back and they think
that there's no chance.
Aarati (26:25):
That's so weird.
I, on one hand, I can't reallyimagine someone like Enrico
Fermi, you know, applying for ajob on behalf of somebody else.
Arpita (26:36):
It seems kind crazy like it doesn't
Aarati (26:37):
it does seem a bit crazy.
Arpita (26:39):
Yeah.
Aarati (26:40):
Yeah.
Like, I can imagine pushing fora job and putting in a really
strong recommendation orsomething, but actually going
behind your back and likeputting in that kind of effort
to try and apply for a job forsomeone.
Yeah, that's a bit crazy.
Arpita (26:56):
No, totally.
I agree with you.
But ultimately the reason thathe didn't get the job wasn't
because the paper wasn'treceived well, or people didn't
like the paper.
It was because the facultythought that he had such a
singular, narrow level ofexpertise that he was offered a
different position instead.
Aarati (27:13):
Oh, ok.
Arpita (27:14):
He started teaching quantum mechanics at the Naples
Physics Institute in January1938.
And he was so brilliant thatmost of his peers, like other
physicists, couldn't reallyfollow him, let alone his
students.
So he did not make an effort toexplain really anything in
detail to his students.
So his students really hated himbecause they never knew what he
(27:36):
was talking about.
He was just saying words
Aarati (27:39):
Those professors are the worst.
Arpita (27:42):
Those Yeah Ettore was for sure one of them.
Aarati (27:44):
Oh, no, that's, that's so sad.
That's terrible.
I'm sorry to whoever was hisstudent then.
It's like, you know, they'rebrilliant, but at the same
time...
Arpita (27:53):
You're like, come on.
Yeah.
Aarati (27:55):
like, what are you even talking about?
I just want to pass my midterm,please.
That's all I want.
It's I want.
Arpita (28:00):
Those people for sure just belong in the lab.
Like, yeah.
Um, so around the same time ashe's teaching at the Naples
Physics Institute, he istheorizing about another
particle, the neutrino, and thisis what he eventually becomes
most famous for.
So, um, In the early 1930s,there was another scientist,
Wolfgang Pauli, who was studyingbeta decay, which is a process
(28:24):
where unstable atomic nucleusreleases an electron.
And the experiments that he wasdoing show something strange.
So the energy of the emittedelectron wasn't always the same
and kind of seemed to defy thelaw of conservation of energy.
Aarati (28:42):
Okay.
Arpita (28:43):
So Pauli suggested that there was maybe a new unseen
particle that was emittedalongside the electron during
beta decay.
And he called this particle aneutrino which would help make
up for missing energy duringthese experiments.
So there's something else beingreleased with the electron to
(29:05):
account for energy that was notbeing conserved along this
emission and the neutrino.
Aarati (29:12):
Okay.
Arpita (29:13):
And building on this idea, Ettore was looking at all
these experiments, looking atall of these results.
And he proposed a differentproperty for this particle and
his theory suggested that aneutrino would indeed solve this
problem and that it has thesereally unique qualities in which
(29:33):
it can be its own antiparticle.
That's the cool thing aboutneutrinos.
So let's break that down.
Aarati (29:38):
Yes, please.
Like, okay.
You lost me now.
Yeah.
Arpita (29:44):
So what an antiparticle is, is we have protons, which
are a positive charge, and thenthey have an antiparticle, which
are electrons because they are anegative charge.
So there is like an equal andopposite component.
Aarati (29:57):
Yes.
Arpita (29:58):
Neutrinos can be their own antiparticle.
So you have a neutrino neutrinoand they can serve as particle
and antiparticle.
Aarati (30:05):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
So neutrino is different than aneutron because a neutron just
has a neutral charge, but aneutrino is one or like, it's
like a pair almost.
Like you have two neutrinos thatone is kind of positive, one of
it's negative
Arpita (30:23):
I don't think it's a charge.
I think that particles andantiparticles is like you're
trying to balance out thescales.
It doesn't always have to be acharge.
Aarati (30:32):
Okay.
Arpita (30:33):
Does that make sense?
Aarati (30:34):
Yes.
I'm just trying to see if Ican...
Arpita (30:36):
Tell me if you found something.
Aarati (30:38):
Yeah, I'm, I'm still looking it up.
It just says it's electricallyneutral, so it doesn't look like
it's a charge.
Um, Yeah, we're starting to getinto words I don't know.
They're like talking aboutleptons and stuff.
I'm like, what the heck?
Arpita (30:52):
Yeah no.
See, I tried to research this somuch and then I was like, I
think I'm just going to keep itsimple on purpose.
Aarati (30:58):
Yeah, Oh, so there's neutrinos and antineutrinos.
And they have an oppositelysigned lepton number.
Arpita (31:07):
Yeah.
See, it's not charge.
It's not, charge, but it's likesomething that gives it an equal
and opposite property.
Aarati (31:13):
Okay.
It's a conserved quantum numberrepresenting the difference
between the number of leptonsand anti leptons.
Wow.
This is...
Arpita (31:21):
I have no idea what a lepton is, but yes.
Aarati (31:23):
This is like those dictionary like definitions
where they're like, what is abuilder?
And it's like someone who buildsand it's like, thanks.
That's really helpful.
If I don't know what, what it's,that's kind of like the problem
I'm running into.
Arpita (31:39):
I want to make it clear that I chose this person for the
true crime and not for thephysics.
Aarati (31:44):
Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Okay.
So in this particular episode,the science is a little bit
secondary because we have a veryexciting story.
Arpita (31:54):
Less secondary and more like we are limiting factor here
is my understanding oftheoretical physics.
Aarati (32:00):
Of quantum physics?
Arpita (32:02):
Yeah, that's what we're limited by.
Aarati (32:06):
You know, maybe we can in the future invite a guest on
and be like, okay, let's revisitthis episode...
Arpita (32:11):
Can you explain this to us?
Yeah,
Aarati (32:12):
explain the science to us, please.
Thanks.
Arpita (32:15):
Tell me all the things that I said wrong because there
was probably 3000.
Aarati (32:18):
Okay.
So we have neutrinos andantineutrinos and that is
special because they kind ofbalance each other out.
Arpita (32:26):
Yes.
Um, and they can modulate theamount of energy emitted.
So they can help make up formissing energy and account for
the laws of conservation ofenergy.
Aarati (32:38):
Okay.
Arpita (32:38):
This is what Ettore eventually becomes the most
famous for in his physicsdiscoveries.
So in 1938, he takes a dipemotionally again.
He starts having his GI issuesagain.
He starts becoming reallyreclusive.
And even at his very best, hewas very introverted and shy,
(33:01):
but then he stopped speaking andsocializing.
And.
At one point on March 25th, hewithdrew all of his money from
the bank, and he sent a note tohis boss, the director of the
Naples Physics Institute wherehe was teaching, and he said,
quote,"I have made a decisionthat was by now inevitable.
(33:23):
It doesn't contain a singlespeck of selfishness, but I do
recognize the inconvenience thatmy unanticipated disappearance
may cause to the students andyourself.
For this too, I beg you toforgive me, but above all, for
having betrayed the trust, thesincere friendship, and the
sympathy that you have so kindlyoffered me over the past few
months.
(33:43):
I beg you to, also, to rememberme, but all those I've come to
know and appreciate at yourInstitute in particular.
But of all, I shall preserve thedearest memories at least until
11 o'clock this evening andpossibly beyond." End quote.
Aarati (33:59):
Oh no.
Arpita (34:02):
But then, he followed this letter with a telegram and
he told the, he told thedirector to disregard the
message.
Aarati (34:12):
I still have concerns.
Alright?
Arpita (34:13):
And then, and then, he wrote another letter, this time
to his family, that read, quote,"I've got a single wish that you
do not wear black for me.
If you want to bow to custom,then bear some sign of mourning,
but for no more than three days.
After that, remember me, if youcan, in your hearts, and forgive
me." End quote.
(34:35):
However, he never actually sentthis to his family.
Aarati (34:38):
Oh, okay.
But.
Oh, no.
But that's, that's really goodmind space.
Like, I, I have seriousconcerns.
I got that telegram as the headof this institute, I would be
like, okay, we need to go...
Arpita (34:52):
Yes.
Aarati (34:52):
...find him right now.
Arpita (34:53):
Okay, so you and the director are thinking exactly
the same.
And this is where the true crimebit of this story starts to come
into play.
So I think for most people,these sort of read as a suicide
note.
And There are some tricky partsto this story though.
So first, these were written inItalian, so the English
(35:14):
translations are kind of hard toevaluate.
So a lot of historians have saidthat he uses some words that in
Italian have no directtranslation to English, so it's
hard to sort of evaluate as anEnglish speaker.
He also never mentions the worddeath at all in Italian or
English.
And some people have said thatthere are some handwriting
(35:36):
characteristics that suicidenotes usually have, but Ettore's
letters, both to Director andhis family, don't have this.
His handwriting is very clean,with strong lines, and doesn't
have any irregularity thatsuicide notes often have.
Aarati (35:52):
Oh, cause like people are, when they're contemplating
they might be a little emotionaland shaky maybe.
And so comes through in theirhandwriting, but his writing
seemed very resolved, it soundslike?
Arpita (36:06):
That's what it sounds like.
I actually didn't know thatthere were handwriting
characteristics for suicidenotes, but that actually is a
thing.
Aarati (36:13):
It makes sense though.
Arpita (36:15):
Yeah, I think it's also a, um, What is the word I'm
looking for?
Oh, like a forensic thing too,to decide if someone wrote the
note versus someone wrote it onyour behalf, uh, to make sure it
actually is a suicide and tomake sure that there's some
things that happen inhandwriting that are specific to
people with suicide notes.
Aarati (36:36):
interesting.
Arpita (36:36):
I didn't really understand the details, but
apparently that seems to be thecase.
Aarati (36:40):
Yeah.
I bet it's another whole fieldof study.
Arpita (36:43):
Probably.
Aarati (36:43):
But I mean, just the language that he used of like,
you know, until 11 o'clocktonight and yeah, that's like
even if he didn't say the worddeath or anything, like that's
still
Arpita (36:56):
Right.
Aarati (36:56):
Very, very concerning language.
Arpita (36:58):
Very alarming.
So then the day after he wrotethese two notes, Ettore checked
into a hotel in Palermo and thenhe wrote other notes that were
far less grave, but stillconcerning.
So he first telegrammed his bossagain, a note that said, quote,
"Don't be alarmed.
A letter follows." end quote.
(37:18):
That letter did arrive soonafter, and that read, quote,"I
hope that my letter and telegramhave reached you together.
The sea has rejected me, andtomorrow I will return to the
Hotel Bologna,"-going, he'sgoing back to the Naples
Institute-"perhaps travelingtogether with the same letter.
I have, however, decided to giveup teaching.
(37:38):
Don't take me for an Ibsenheroine, because the case is
quite different.
I am at your disposal forfurther details." End quote.
So, obviously, this director isvery concerned, and he calls
Ettore's family immediately.
Aarati (37:52):
Yeah, it sounds like he tried to drown himself, right?
The sea has rejected me?
Arpita (37:57):
Think it's because Naples is on the sea.
I think it's because he hasphysically left the seaside.
Aarati (38:02):
Oh, I see.
Okay.
Okay.
Arpita (38:04):
Yeah.
Um, and he's saying, I'm goingto come back tomorrow is what
say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you're on the right trackthough.
So the director calls Ettore'sfamily immediately and his
family went to Ettore'sapartment and found the note
that he wrote to his familysitting on the desk that he
never sent.
Aarati (38:23):
Mm-hmm.
Arpita (38:24):
And then after March 26th, 1938, no one had contact
with Ettore.
So there is documentation thathe took a ship from Palermo to
Naples.
He's going back and while on theship, he talked to another
professor from the University ofNaples briefly.
And this man is only importantbecause he is supposedly the
(38:45):
last person to ever talk toEttore.
There is no evidence that Ettoredisembarked from the ship.
And some people say that henever boarded the ship at all.
So regardless, they start asearch.
The Majorana family offered areward of 30, 000 Lire.
And Benito Mussolini, who wasthe prime minister at the time,
(39:06):
was contacted both by theMajorana family and Enrico
Fermi, with pleas to search forEttore, and Fermi especially,
really, uh, made the case thathe was so important to science
and the advancement of Italy asa nation and Fermi said, quote,
"I do not hesitate to declare,and this is not hyperbole, that
(39:28):
of all the Italian and foreignscholars who I had the
opportunity to meet, Majorana isthe one who, for depth of
genius, has impressed me themost." End quote.
Aarati (39:37):
This is literally like if Albert Einstein went missing
or something.
Oh my gosh.
Like, you've got the PrimeMinister of Italy in on this
search now.
Arpita (39:47):
Yeah.
Aarati (39:47):
This is crazy.
Arpita (39:49):
It is crazy.
And so they continue this searchfor a while, and they find no
trace.
And the last police note wasfiled on August 6th, 1938.
And in December of the sameyear, the University of Naples
made a formal decree that Ettorehad resigned on March 25th,
which is the day that he wrotethat first letter to the
(40:10):
director.
And They cited abandonment ofduty.
I'm not super clear why they hadto do this.
I'm like, people think he's deadat this point, but think just
for their, like, internalpurposes, they had to, like,
make this decree that he is,like, no longer in this post so
they can open up the positionagain.
Aarati (40:25):
Oh, that makes sense.
Yeah.
Arpita (40:28):
So he disappeared without a trace.
And I think with a lot ofstories that are like this, like
a missing person case, there arelots of theories about what
could have happened to him.
So the most obvious one is thathe died by suicide and the notes
that he wrote his family and hisboss, like we said, definitely
seem like they are suicidenotes.
(40:49):
However, his family wasinsistent that as a devout
Catholic, he never would havecommitted the sin of taking his
life.
And because they'd never found abody, the reigning theory is
that he jumped into the seawhile on a boat from Palermo to
Naples.
So that's why I was sayingearlier, I was like, I think he
hasn't jumped yet because heletter.
Yes.
And then there's record of himboarding the boat.
(41:11):
So it couldn't have happenedthen, but it might've happened
after.
Aarati (41:14):
But that's still a really good point about him
being Catholic, you know, andhow it is such a sin to take
your life.
That is a very strong...
Arpita (41:22):
yep.
Aarati (41:22):
...point in that favor.
Arpita (41:24):
It is a strong point.
And so to the Catholic point,because he was so well known as
a Catholic, there's anothertheory that he left to go be a
monk and join a monastery.
And during this time period, aman matching Ettore's
description went to a church inNaples and asked to be admitted
into the religious order there.
(41:45):
And there were apparently somelogistics that needed to be
worked out for him to join, sohe just thanked them and
disappeared.
And another theory related tohis faith, there was a member of
the clergy who had takenEttore's confession in church
many, many times, and theytalked this guy.
And this member of the clergysaid that Ettore had often had
(42:08):
crises of faith, but thatsuicide was entirely out of the
question.
So both of these ideas, themonastery idea and the fact that
he, this clergy member said thatthis is out of the question,
hinge on this idea that Ettoresaw the destructive power and
(42:28):
the work that was being done intheoretical physics, and that
drove him away from the fieldthat he so excelled in and he
didn't really have any desireto, like, be a part of it.
Aarati (42:42):
Yeah.
But, okay, so I get maybe hedidn't commit suicide, but then
on the other hand, if he didn't,and if he decided, I'm just
gonna disappear or something,it's an awfully cruel thing to
do to your family, to just upand disappear and like, leave a
note like that, knowing thatthat's the last correspondence
that they're gonna have fromyou, like, to just If you're,
(43:04):
even if you're just like, I'mjust going to disappear and I
can't kill myself because I'mCatholic and that's a sin.
So I'm just going to join amonastery or I'm just going to
up and disappear.
And to not let your family know,like, Hey, I'm okay.
I just don't want you to contactme, but I'm all right.
I'm alive.
I'm doing my thing.
Please leave me alone.
(43:25):
Just so that they have thatpeace of mind.
is, I don't know, like, so thenthat pushes me back towards,
like, he must have committedsuicide then because, like, who
would do that to their familyand the people he's worked with?
Like, that's crazy to me.
Both theories seem equallyimplausible at this point, so
now I'm like, also, I don't knowwhat happened.
Arpita (43:46):
Okay.
Because I have more theories foryou.
Aarati (43:47):
Great.
Yes please.
I need more.
Arpita (43:49):
So, continuing on the fact that he was maybe not
interested in this destructivepower of physics.
So some people are convincedthat Ettore decided to disappear
because he saw that nuclearforces would lead to nuclear
explosives that were many, manymore times powerful than
conventional bombs.
And then he just wanted nothingto do with the field.
However, other physicists,physicists claim that given the
(44:13):
state of the field at the time,and the fact that particle
physics was just gettingstarted, there's no way that
anyone could have predicted thata heavy nucleus could be broken
down to trigger nuclear fission.
They're like, there's no way youwould have made that leap.
Aarati (44:28):
Even if you were the Italian Albert Einstein?
Arpita (44:31):
These are just theories..
Aarati (44:32):
Yeah.
Arpita (44:33):
Another idea that's become a little bit more popular
is that he may have actuallybeen murdered by Nazis.
So Ettore, as you might rememberearlier from our story, worked
very closely from WernerHeisenberg, who eventually
worked on Germany's nuclearweapons project during the
second world war.
And this was based on some ofthe science that they worked on
(44:55):
together.
So people who support thistheory believe that because
Ettore became kind of a looseend because he kind of
disappeared.
He went from there toCopenhagen, um, was just after
that because he just kinda aloose end
Aarati (45:12):
That's an interesting theory, but then at the same
time, those letters really justgive me pause.
Like, what a coincidence thatyou wrote those letters about
how you're, murdered you.
and then yeah, and it just sohappens that at that time,
that's when, yeah, oh my gosh,it just, it's such a mystery.
That's so confusing.
Arpita (45:29):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Okay, so then, like a lot ofmissing person cases, there's
all these potential sightingsthat people report.
Aarati (45:39):
Mm-hmm.
Arpita (45:40):
He was allegedly spotted in a convent in Portici, Italy
on April 12th.
So this was about two weeksafter he originally disappeared
and he reportedly came there andasked to join the religious
order.
And then much, much later in the1970s, a number of sightings
were reported in Argentina.
Aarati (46:01):
Okay.
But this would have been like 30years later, right?
Arpita (46:04):
30 years many years later, Yeah.
It got resurrected.
One of these sightings, whichwas reported by a Chilean
physicist, Carlo Rivera Cruchagaand he said that he met a woman
named Mrs.
Talbert, who claimed to knowEttore in Buenos Aires in 1951.
And that this woman who told himthat Ettore was friends with her
(46:27):
son, identified him in a photothat Rivera had with him.
Aarati (46:32):
Oh.
Arpita (46:33):
So Rivera returned to Buenos Aires in 1954 and was
trying to meet Ettore.
And then he found out that Mrs.
Talbert was no longer livingthere and couldn't find her.
He went back again in 1961, andthen this time he said that he
saw a waiter who was able toconfirm that Ettore would come
(46:55):
in and work on physics equationsand mention another scientist
who would sit and work with himas well.
So then these rumors startedthat he had this whole new life
in South America, that he'd beenthere for years, and some of
these sightings seemed to backit up.
Aarati (47:10):
Interesting.
Arpita (47:11):
Then in 2008, another piece of evidence emerged and a
man named Francesco Fassanicalled into the Italian news
program, Who Has Seen It?
And he claimed to have a photoof Ettore, although he knew this
man as"Mr.
Bini".
And Fassani said that the manthat he met in Venezuela in 1955
(47:32):
was in his fifties, was very shyand very refined in his manners.
And this matches because thistheoretical man, Mr.
Bini was about the same age thatEttore would have been and had
similar like shy demeanor asprevious accounts.
This sighting reopened a case inRome in 2011.
(47:56):
And they used facial recognitionsoftware to show that there was
10 points of facial structure onthe photo of the mystery man,
Mr.
Bini, that coincided with aknown photo of Ettore.
And based on this, a publicprosecutor ruled that Ettore had
indeed lived in Venezuela andwas able to say that his death
(48:17):
was not due to homicide orsuicide.
Aarati (48:20):
Wait.
So they think they found him?
Arpita (48:22):
Yeah, they think they found him.
Aarati (48:24):
Did they do any, like, further testing?
Maybe you're going to get tothat.
But, like, just off the picture?
Like,
Arpita (48:29):
Just a picture.
Aarati (48:30):
Like, DNA,
Arpita (48:32):
They didn't have DNA.
They just had this photo.
This random dude said that heknew him in the fifties
Aarati (48:38):
Mm hmm.
Arpita (48:39):
And he called it in 2008 and said, I have a picture of
this guy.
Aarati (48:43):
Oh my God.
Okay.
Okay.
And that's like, the onlyevidence they have.
Arpita (48:47):
It's the only evidence they have.
Aarati (48:48):
I don't know if I believe it, but ok.
Yes.
Arpita (48:51):
So you're with a lot of other people.
Um, Not everyone accepts thisruling.
Some people really buy thereligious crisis thing.
Um, they're really just like notinto the fact that he just like
up and moved.
They're like, this sighting isnot conclusive.
Like, I don't think we can makethis claim.
So the bottom line isregardless, we don't know how he
ended up dying.
Um, he's almost certainly deadby now, given the fact that he
(49:14):
was born in 1906.
So
Aarati (49:18):
yeah.
Arpita (49:18):
But
Aarati (49:19):
The world's oldest physicist.
Arpita (49:21):
Yeah, like, we don't know how he died eventually, um,
and there's so many unansweredquestions, like, why did he
leave so unceremoniously, like,even if he had all these other
things, like, what was thereason, like, what were his
motives, and I just said, wehave no idea how his life
ultimately ended.
And something that I was readingalso, which I thought was a nice
(49:41):
conclusion for this is that hecame from this family of really
high achievers and wassurrounded by the top scientists
of the time.
And so many of these people hadhuge egos and, like, couldn't
bear the idea of someone, like,usurping them.
Um, and there's just so muchthat he could have done, just,
(50:03):
like, didn't happen.
And he, like, would have beenright there with household names
based on how brilliant he was.
But yeah, we just don't know.
We don't know what could havebeen.
Aarati (50:13):
But does give me another, like, a little bit of
an answer maybe.
Like, if he did leave his familyand he did leave all the people
he was working with, he mighthave just been buckling under
pressure, you know?
And I I could see that, I guess.
Like, if he didn't want todisappoint his family, he didn't
want to disappoint the people hewas working with by saying that
(50:35):
"I don't want to work on thesephysics problems anymore," for
whatever reason, either he sawthat it was going to be used for
bad purposes in the future, orhe didn't, and he was just over
it, and he was just like, I'mnot interested in working on
this anymore, it's just all toomuch for me, but how do I tell
my high achieving family andlike the people around me who
(50:56):
expect so much from that I'mjust not into it anymore,
there's no way they would acceptthat as an answer.
So rather than face thatdisappointment I'm just going
to, I'm just going to peace offto South America.
Bye guys.
So I, like, on the one hand, Ican't see someone doing that to
their family and their lovedones, but on the other hand,
(51:19):
yeah, if he was feeling a lot ofguilt and shame, I think I could
see it.
So, it's such a mystery.
Arpita (51:26):
But yeah, that's the case of Ettore Majorana.
We don't, we don't know.
We don't know what happened tothis guy, but...
Aarati (51:35):
That is fascinating.
I would, I would almost assumethat, like, the fact that he
disappeared without a tracewould make him even more of a
household name.
Arpita (51:44):
Yeah like an Amelia Earhart situation.
Aarati (51:46):
Yeah exactly! That's so weird that I've never heard of
him before.
And he was right up there withEnrico Fermi and Niels Bohr and
all these people.
And I would just assume I wouldhave known him even more because
of the fact that he disappearedunder such mysterious
circumstances.
So It's really weird he was kindof lost to time.
What a great story.
(52:07):
I'm fascinated now.
Arpita (52:08):
I'm glad you like the little true crime crossover.
Aarati (52:10):
Yeah.
I think I'm going to go into arabbit hole after this.
Like trying to figure out allthe things like I'm going to,
I'm going to learn Italian.
I'm going to be like reading theoriginal letter.
Arpita (52:19):
This was like a, a good story to bookend my Italian
summer trip.
Aarati (52:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Go see if you can visit theUniversity of Naples.
Go see if you can track himdown.
Arpita (52:29):
Yeah, Seriously.
Aarati (52:30):
Find his family, do some interviews.
Oh my gosh., Amazing, amazingstory.
That was great.
Arpita (52:36):
Great, I'm glad you liked it.
Aarati (52:39):
Thanks for listening.
If you have a suggestion for astory we should cover, or
thoughts you want to share aboutan episode, reach out to us at
smarttpodcast.
com.
You can follow us on Instagramand Twitter at smarttpodcast,
and listen to us on Spotify,Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
And leave us a rating orcomment.
It really helps us grow.
(52:59):
New episodes are released everyother Wednesday.
See you next time.
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