SMV10: Chris Heivly’s entrepreneurial journey from Mapquest to ecosystem builder.

In this episode, you will learn:

1. How MapQuest became a Unicorn in 1999.
2. Channeling your inner 10 year old: The 5 Principles of Building a Fort.
3. The one mistake that all 1st time founders make.  
4. Why community & collaboration are essential for innovation.
5. Systems theory for building startups & innovation.
6. Why not all mentorship & advice is created equal.

Did you ever build a fort when you were a kid?  Chris Heivly has been building successful startups & communities with that same mindset for decades and he shares his story in this episode and his latest book called “Build the Fort”.  

Long before Waze existed or Google Maps, there was MapQuest, which started in Lancaster, Pennsylvania with maps on CD-Roms and went on to become a unicorn in 1999. Chris Heivly was the co-founder of MapQuest, and that was just the beginning of his entrepreneurial journey.  

Chris has been building and investing in startups and the communities around them for decades.  From the Startup Factory in North Carolina, to TechStars where he served as Senior Vice President of Ecosystem Development, he has spent the last 12 years building ecosystems around the country.  

Chris has the experience of a 63 year old, the energy of a 40 year old, and the humor of a 12 year old, which is exactly the mix needed to help a large number of entrepreneurs and innovators.  

Chris’s book “Build the Fort” outlines five basic elements that are common to fort-building, startups and innovation ecosystems:  

1) Socialize your idea without fear or inhibition
2) Identify & marshal the people you trust
3) Gather the minimal resources closest to you
4) Act on the smallest & simplest forms of the idea
5) Take action building your fort

He produces and hosts a podcast called your Startup Community with Brad Feld and Ian Hathaway, and he recently released his second book entitled Build the Fort a Startup Community Builder, and it's a global field guide for how to get involved, how to create impact and fund and accelerate your entrepreneurial ecosystem.

Chris is a best-selling author, contributing writer for Inc.com and a public speaker. He's spoken to over 400 audiences about startups, corporate innovation and the startup community ecosystem development.

Chris is a graduate of West Chester University of Pennsylvania with a bachelors degree in Geography and holds a Masters degree in Geographic Information Systems from University of South Carolina.  

I know you will enjoy this episode as Chris shares his wit and wisdom with us on the SmartMoney Ventures Podcast!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to the Smart Money Ventures podcast, where we
highlight active leaders in theglobal ecosystem of venture
capital, entrepreneurship andinnovation.
We give you access to insightsfrom successful investors and
entrepreneurs that most peoplejust can't get access to, and
the only reason they take ourcalls is because we've been in
the trenches with them fordecades.
My name is JD Davidson, I'myour host for this episode of

(00:30):
the Smart Money Ventures podcast, and today we have a very
special guest that I have greatrespect for.
You know, long before Wazeexisted or Google Maps, there
was MapQuest, which became aunicorn in 1999.
Chris Hively was the co-founderof MapQuest, and we're going to
hear more about that story injust a minute.
Chris also served as Senior VicePresident of Ecosystem

(00:50):
Development for Techstars, andfor about the last 12 years plus
, Chris has been helping buildecosystems across the country.
Chris currently serves asManaging Director of the Startup
Factory in North Carolina, andit is one of the largest seed
investment firms in theSoutheast US, and under his
leadership, the firm has made35-plus investments in just four
years in emerging technologycompanies.

(01:12):
Chris is a multifacetedinvestor with deep experience
making in angel investments,corporate VC and micro VC
placements as well.
He produced and hosts a podcastcalled your Startup Community
with Brad Feld and Ian Hathaway,and he recently released his
second book entitled Build theFort a Startup Community Builder
, and it's a global field guidefor how to get involved, how to

(01:35):
create impact and fund andaccelerate your entrepreneurial
ecosystem.
He's a best-selling author,contributing writer for Inccom
and a public speaker.
He's spoken to over 400audiences about startups,
corporate innovation and thestartup community ecosystem
development.
That's an amazing background.
Chris, Thank you very much forbeing with us today and we
appreciate you joining us.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
Thanks, JD.
I feel like I just listened tomy obituary.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, let's hope that's long in the distance,
right, let's hope Well.
So to kick off the program, wehave to start with the map quest
story.
There's not a lot of peoplethat can talk about a unicorn.
That happened in 1999 and thebuildup to that, and your book
mentions a story that fascinatedme.
There was a conversation withyour father about your choice of

(02:23):
your college major and howgeography and computers sort of
collided to begin yourentrepreneurial journey.
So tell us how that allunfolded.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah Well, like many of us entrepreneurs, it's not a
straight line story.
I went to a local state collegeoutside of Philadelphia for a
year, dropped out for a year anda half, was a pipe fitter for
about that year and a half andthen realized that college at
three to four hours a day wasactually a lot easier.

(02:55):
And when I went back, my dad'sbrother a young you know a lot
of years between them but wasalso a geography major and was
getting a PhD at the time andwas also kind of a computer-y,
and he said why don't you take acouple geography classes when
you'll go back and maybe you'lllike them?
And so I did.
I think my father alwaysthought of his brother as kind

(03:17):
of just like one of those kindof academic misfits kind of
thing, never having a real job.
And so when I said I love thisgeography stuff, I'm going to be
a geography major, I could seelike the disappointment on his
face.
But I said you know I reallylike it and we'll just see where
it goes.
And then one of those firstclasses JD was a computer

(03:38):
mapping class.
Now, let's put that in contextfor 1979, 80.
These are still mainframes,it's post-punch cards but it's
still dumb terminals and thatjust lit my fire.
And what was interesting whichis really a hallmark of the rest
of my professional life, isthat professor and I were

(04:00):
figuring this stuff out at thesame time.
So when I did go back tocollege I viewed my professors
as peers, not as like gods thatI needed to get a grade from.
I was just like, hey, this ispretty cool shit, let's figure
this out.
And so that's how that journeystarted.
And then he encouraged me totake a computer science class.

(04:21):
So I actually learned how towrite code as an undergraduate
geography major in 1980, whichis pretty unheard of, but what
like?

Speaker 2 (04:31):
were you coding in basic?

Speaker 3 (04:33):
Yeah, Fortran mostly.
And then, once the PCs came out, basic was the best thing you
could do.
I had a little compiler andyeah.
So I just, as you said in yourintro, jamming two things
together that had never beenjammed together before, it's
sometimes the secret to success.
So for me it was mapping.

(04:55):
I was a terrible geographer,not a very good cartographer,
but I love maps and geography,the concepts, and I love
computer science.
So that's the story.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
I think it worked out that yeah, exactly.
Well, and I think it's a lessonin follow your passions and the
pathway will emerge.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
Yeah, I mean, you know you try to like think about
artists, right?
Yeah, you're passionate, butyou also have to figure out how
to survive.
I knew I was going to figureout how to survive, but, yeah,
combining that with your passion, you know, I just remember I
had to pay for my.
You know, when I went back mydad said I'm really proud of you

(05:33):
, but this one's on you.
And so I lived at home andwould either, if my car was
running, I drive, or if itwasn't running, I'd stick my
thumb out back when you could dothat.
And if that didn't work, I thentook the bus.
But there's many times I canand we had one car.
So there's many times when Icame back after a day of college

(05:55):
that I said, hey, can I borrowthe car?
I want to go back out and goofaround with these computer
things and see what's going on.
So that's when you know you'reonto something, when you can't
get enough of it.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Well, and it ties right into building a fort.
Right, channel your inner 10year old.
Find something really cool towork on.
Invite some friends and seewhat happens, but just focus on
problem solving.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, I mean like thanks for setting that up,
because you know, that's kind ofthe gist of I think what I'm
good at these days issimplifying complex things, and
I always tell people yeah, I dida talk yesterday in front of
250 high school kids, allinterested in entrepreneurship,
and I said how many of you builtforts as a kid for you not too

(06:40):
long ago?
And no matter what the audienceis, jd, everyone raises their
hand and you're like I builtforts, nice, everyone does, and
so it's a great little metaphor.
And you know, I think as adultsand you and I have been around
the band a few times we justover complicate things all the
time, don't we?

Speaker 2 (06:59):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Our heads, our brains are our worst enemy, right?
So maybe just chill out andpretend you're a 10 year old
building a fort.
That's the idea.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, and I think it's actually important to give
yourself that creative licenseto experiment, and I think the
brain can be your enemy, but thebrain can also be your greatest
asset, because those of us likeyourself who are able to see a
vision of something and makeconnections that others don't,

(07:29):
that's the asset.
The downside of it is we tendto get distracted by shiny
objects.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Shiny objects and things that don't matter, but we
don't know that they don'tmatter.
Right, right, one of myfavorite little stories and I
exaggerated a little bit formaking a better story, but like
early in the kind of theaccelerator, incubator kind of
days, you know I, we would talk,my partner and I would talk to

(07:57):
tons of people on.
You know we're sitting right inDurham, north Carolina, home of
Duke University, eight milesfrom UNC Chapel Hill, so a lot
of ecology stuff and invariably,you know, three or four MBAs
would come over and like we'regoing to start a company, I'm
the CEO, I'm the COO, and then,like there's my favorite, like
I'm the CFO and I'd look at theguys as a CFO, I'm like what do

(08:19):
you have to fricking count?
There's nothing to count, right, we don't need a CFO for about.
You know, for three or fouryears to come, yeah, what else
are you going to do?
Are you going to sell something?
Are you going to buildsomething?
That's what I want to hear.
Anyway, as a finance guy, Iknew you'd appreciate that
Absolutely, Absolutely Well.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
On the map quest story, what struck me is that
there was a singular focus onthe problem that you're solving
is making it easier, but therewas a continuum of about eight
or nine different technologyiterations from the beginning,
not at the punch cards, but tothe you know you were putting
maps Well, you were talkingabout triptychs and then CD-ROMs

(09:01):
, and then to what most peopleunderstand is ways, Walk us
through the technologyprogression and yet tie it into
a single problem that you werefollowing through its iterations
.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah, I mean, that's a I rarely get asked this
question, so I love that you'vedone it and found it, because I
think it still happens today.
There's still lots ofbusinesses that haven't been
fully digitalized or you know,however, whatever word you want
to.
You know, computerized,internetized, whatever you know,
worldwide web here.
But you know, for us what weknew is we knew not maps as maps

(09:38):
, as an object, but what peoplewere.
You know.
Maps asked after three or fourquestions right, where is it?
You know what is the closestand how do I get there?
Like that hasn't changed.
So the question is how can wemake it easier for people to
access that?
You mentioned triptychs.
So, if not you and I, at leastour parents and, to many

(10:00):
listeners, their parents orgrandparents.
When they went on a big roadtrip, they maybe went to AAA or
some other auto club at Sears or14 or 15 other places and they
printed out a guide about here'show you drive, you know, from
Columbus, ohio, to Orlando to goto Disneyland or World and, by

(10:22):
the way, along the way, here'skind of a book of hotels and you
know, and that made sense for alot of people, but for us it
was like that doesn't make anysense.
There's now these computersthat could actually do it for
you and, by the way, allow youto kind of maybe modify it for
your.
You know why does everyone ofColumbus have to take the same
roads to Orlando, right?
And so we just used whatevertechnology was available today.

(10:47):
And for me, this computermapping guy, it was like, yeah,
let's take whatever exists.
First it was a desktop PC, then, you know, we rolled them in
every auto club and so, behindthe scenes, they made that trip
tick themselves, you know, inthe moment.
So it was a cost benefit tothem.
Later on, I was spending a lotof time in California.

(11:10):
By the way, mapquest is bakedin Lancaster, pennsylvania, I
don't know if you knew that.
No, Obviously, the high techmecca of South Central
Pennsylvania.
Oh, of course you know, forevery Ohioan.
You know home to 125,000 Amishpeople, right?
Yeah, so that's where we bakedthat.

(11:32):
So you know, unicorns can comefrom places other than Boston or
the Valley, or you know Seattleor Austin.
But I was spending a lot of timeon the West Coast and just
getting emerged in that wholeecosystem and bringing the best
practices back.
And then we started hearingabout a CD-ROM, right.
So it was like, well, now wecan do it at home, Now they

(11:53):
don't have to go to an auto club.
We did an Apple Newton.
Most people don't know thatApple had a device Early PDA In
between Steve Jobs and it failed, but we were the top selling
product on that.
And what was interesting, JDand I know this is getting long
in the tooth here, but every oneof those things we just were

(12:13):
out listening to people, talkingto people to understand what
technology was coming next andthen going back to Lancaster and
saying, all right, how can wekind of create a full form of
what we're doing?
That fits into that and let'sexperiment and try it out,
because we were probably a bunchof dumb central Pennsylvania
people who didn't know better,right no?

Speaker 2 (12:35):
fear Right, absolutely.
And the lack of fear is whatgives us permission to
experiment.
Because, as you've mentionedbefore in your book and your
talks, and also AlexanderOsterwalder, who wrote the
business model canvas and thelean business canvas, the whole

(12:56):
thing is to give yourselfpermission to experiment,
because a startup company, asAlexander says, is not a smaller
version of a larger companywith HR and finance and admin.
A startup company is a productin search of a repeatable
business model.
And, to your point, it'simportant not to sit in the mad

(13:17):
scientist mode in the lab byyourself and try to quote,
unquote, figure it out.
Go, get a dozen of your friendsand crowdsource the wisdom of
finding and experimenting andfinding, as people talk about
your lightning in a bottle.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, one of my favorite lines is when you're
the only one in the room, thenevery decision is perfect.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
And talk about a lack of diversity of thought You're
only bringing.
You have an audience of one, soyour sample size of potential
solutions is notably singular.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, and let me just say with no judgment it starts
with us, but it's got to getbigger than us as quickly as
possible, and hence rule one ofbuilding the forward is go out
and socialize that idea with nofear, inhibition.
I tell people, even the mostintroverted people, listen, do

(14:15):
them one-on-one, do them overzoom, I don't really care, but
kind of like Steve Blank andAlexander said, you better go
talk to 25 people and what Itell people is you'll be amazed
at what you'll learn just bydescribing what you're thinking
about to other people.
They'll ask questions that youhaven't thought of, and those
questions you'll go back and gohuh, and then you'll kind of

(14:37):
bend it a little bit and mold itthis way.
And, by the way, that doesn'ttake any money, exactly, you
don't have to raise money to dothat, right.
So go start that yesterday.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Absolutely, Absolutely, yeah.
And it is that culture ofexperimentation.
Where it's not a failure, it's.
You know, isn't Thomas Edisonright 10,000 ways that the light
bulb does not work before youget the 10,000 at the first
right.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
Exactly, and you know I love the word experiment and
I really think that this earlyphase is more of a mindset.
That's what I try to do in myworkshops and my talks and the
one-on-ones I do with you know,the probably 5,000 founders
today is really try to figureout if they have the right
mindset, and it's got to be thismindset.

(15:26):
I happen to use the worddiscovery and a lot, and so it's
like listen, not only do younot know answers, you don't even
know the questions yet, right,so get out there and just you
know, get out there and havethis mindset, like I want to
uncover or reveal or find youknow that product market fit,

(15:47):
find that customer or potentialcustomer front, find how all
this is molded together.
That's your job is to have thiscuriosity learning.
I don't have all the answersyet.
I have a thesis but I don'thave any answers yet and I think
the best ones do that really,really well.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
So when I founded my first software company, I used
to say that my job as thestartup founder and CEO was to
take the idea, pitch it to asmany people as possible, invite
them to shoot holes in it andthen go back to the office and
figure out how to fill in theholes and get with the team and
figure out how to fill thoseholes.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, and after that holes field figured out what the
next set of holes are.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right, it's an iterative process and, to your
point, you can't have any fearin that.
So you talked about theimportance of socializing the
idea.
That's one of your fiveprinciples that you laid out in
the book Build the Fort.
Tell us those five principles.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
Let's I better, you know, be able to remember what I
wrote right.
So, yeah, yeah, so you know.
One socialize the idea.
Two find partners, whichinvariably happens.
After you socialize the idea,invariably you'll find some
people that will work on it withyou.
They don't necessarily have tobe co-founders, they could play
any different number of roles,but start to develop this close

(17:07):
tribe of people that are goingto work on it with you.
I believe that the bestentrepreneurship is more of a
team sport than a solo sport.
Again, that doesn't mean youhave to have founders and
employees per se, but you know,you have this group of people
that you can kind of lean on.
The third thing is to thencorral the assets that are
closest to you.

(17:27):
So if you go back to FortBuilding and if you built forts
outside, the first thing youhave to do is like where's the
wood going to come from?
Right, you got to go out andfind it, you know, especially
back in our day, you didn't, youknow, go on Amazon and bought,
you know, buy the Fort Buildingkit, you know.
Or mom bought you for athousand dollars.
You went out and scrounged forstuff, and I'm amazed at how

(17:50):
many startups get stuck tryingto think like, well, I need a
hundred thousand dollars tolicense this data or to buy this
software.
And I'm like, no, no, no, thisis the MVP world, right, how do
you hack it together so you canput it in front of some of those
people you just talked to andget the reaction to it?
The fourth thing is keeping thescope small.
Again, back to Fort Building.

(18:12):
If you and I were building afort back in the day, you better
be done in about three days,right, or you lose interest.
And that scope, what I find iswe all have this.
What wakes us up in the morningis this evolved dream, right,
but that dream is three to fiveyears out, right, when you have
CFOs, right.

(18:33):
So, but the question is, youknow, back to your point about.
You know, startups are notsmall versions of large
companies.
You have to earn your way toget to that point three years
from now.
So I'm a crawl, walk, run,iterate, pivot, keep moving the
thing forward.
You know very few companiesgets at the success stage, are

(18:55):
exactly where they started,right, they move around, they
find different markets, theyfind different product types and
features.
So in that discovery phase, yougot to keep the scope small.
I love three month chunks.
So here we are.
Let's pretend it's well, it'slate November, so let's pretend
it's December 1st.
So I say to myself all right,december, january, february,

(19:18):
it's March 1st.
What do I want to know March1st that I don't know today, and
what would be the two or threemost important things I have to
do or have done for me to sayit's worth spending another
three months?
So that's principle four.
And principle five is just doit.
Don't ask for permission, don'tlook for overlooking, for data,

(19:42):
because if there's data, thenit's already been done In the
immortal worlds of Nike.
Just do it, get started,initiate the discovery process,
because there's nothing likemomentum and confidence to start
, kind of telling you you're onthe right track.
Exactly that's the big five.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
And what you talked about in the fourth one was a
very important thing isclarifying and defining exactly
what problem it is that you'retrying to solve for and, even
more specifically, what is thespecific customer set of people
that you're trying to solve for?
Because typically it's not justone problem, it's that person

(20:24):
has several problems and, toyour point, immersing yourself
in the customer problem is theenvironment where it's, the
sandbox, where you experiment.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, in our little world we talk a lot about
product market fit and youshouldn't scale your company
until you have product marketfit.
And I always remind people thatthere's three words in that
phrase.
There's product has to meet amarket, a market has to want
that product and you have tofigure out a way to define or
look to see that hey, it fits.

(20:56):
And so part of the discovery isusually figuring out that the
way you envision the product isnot what your market looks once,
or that's not actually the bestbeach head get started market.
You probably should start overhere a little bit, because
they're more anxious and havemore angst around solving a

(21:18):
problem, which are the bestpeople to start with right,
because they'll let you givethem not perfect product and
help solve their problem.
So that's that journey we're on.
That can last, sometimes up tothree, four years.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
I agree.
You mentioned Steve Blank, andone of the things he always says
is get out of the building, gotalk to customers, and I think
probably one of the greatestpieces of advice that I often
give to entrepreneurs is do notdelay interacting with your
customers.
I see far too many peoplewaiting for it to be perfect,

(21:53):
and not that there isn't aseason for that, but it's a
short season because no plansurvives first contact with the
customer.
So the sooner you can get intothat arena and get some dust in
your face and some sweat offyour brow, then you'll be
learning what the customer, whatthe market, wants and how to
adapt your product so that youget that, as you say, fit.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, I think the other cliche that I love, which
maybe sometimes hits homeemphasis on the word hit is Mike
Tyson's.
Everyone has a plan until theyget punched in the nose.
The first time you bring yourunbelievably whether it's a
concept or a prototype orproduct to a customer and they
punch you in the nose and go,nope, not interested.

(22:37):
That's a tough day, right, andso let's figure out a way to
either get that hit earlier onor at least be ready for that
hit and say, well then, howabout this?

Speaker 2 (22:54):
And I think that's what's important for us to
communicate to entrepreneurs,because I think a lot of times
people romanticizeentrepreneurship I'm going to be
my own boss.
Oh, no, no, no, your customersare your bosses, right, and you
will eventually have a board ofdirectors.
So let's be realistic about itand create an environment where,
when you do get kicked in theteeth, you understand that it

(23:16):
just gives you an opportunity topivot or iterate and get closer
to it.
Yeah, a new plan?
Right, exactly, well, and thatgets to the ecosystem part of
the conversation, becausecreating an environment where
not only is it safe toexperiment and get kicked in the
teeth once in a while, but it'sa nurturing environment, that

(23:36):
we not only expect them to pickthemselves up by the bootstrap
and get back up, but thatthere's a few people around them
helping them back up.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah, I mean back to the part that I think
entrepreneurs a little bit moreof a team sport than a solo
sport.
That team doesn't have to justbe your co-founders or employees
, right, that team could andshould be your community.
You know, speaking ofromanticizing, we talk about
Silicon Valley as this Mecca.
Well, the reason that it's aMecca is that it's a very mature

(24:08):
, well-connected, easy tonavigate.
Language is understood, tons ofawareness about how the right
way to do all this is and it'sbeen that way for 30, 40 years.
And places like Raleigh, durhamor Columbus or Indianapolis or
Poughkeepsie, new York andyesterday I was in Hudson, north
Carolina.

(24:28):
I'd never even heard of itbefore they have a little hub
station for people to gatherabout entrepreneurship.
It doesn't matter where you'reat, there has to be a community
around you to kind of teach youand, by the way, teaching in the
broadest sense, like not justto do the things we just said,
like don't wait till yourproduct's perfect, get out and

(24:50):
talk to people, or maybe youshould find a co-founder, or how
do you?
You don't need a CFO right now.
All those little nuanced thingsthat can potentially waste time
are friction points on yourentrepreneurial journey.
Great communities create theawareness and that learning
opportunity, and it's not thatto be formal learning, like

(25:12):
you're going to a class, right,just you and I having a cup of
coffee and sharing a story, andyou're like, oh, that's the way
that's thought of.
And so, maybe to answer aquestion you didn't ask, I've
been spending the last really 10years focusing on communities
and how communities get built,because that's a way that I can

(25:32):
help influence, hopefully,thousands of entrepreneurs, as
opposed to one-on-one Like agood startup guy, jd.
It's new, there's not a lotknown, we're still trying to.
There's more questions andanswers about how to do this,
but I've dedicated the last six,seven years and read a ton of
stuff and talked to literally athousand people about this, and

(25:55):
so that's what wakes me up inthe morning is the idea of
helping to build community.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Absolutely Well.
I'm enjoying your book Buildthe Fort for sure, and so
congratulations on that.
That's your second book, isn'tit?

Speaker 3 (26:06):
It is, so it's a little confusing.
I wrote the first one that'scalled Build the Fort, kind of
how to Start Anything, now thatI realize the Build the Fort is
going to be kind of a series.
The second one is about how tobe a good community builder.
I got to go back and reframefirst one.
That takes effort so that'shard, but the way to think about

(26:26):
it is.
The first.
Build the Fort both availableon Amazon is about how to be a
better founder, so that'sspecifically for founders.
And then the second one isabout how to build community,
which includes founders,investors, economic development
folks, chambers, universitypeople, what role you can all
play to help your communitythrive.
And when the community thrives,it waterfalls down to you in

(26:48):
whatever role you have.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
What I love about your book is that it's drawing
on some deep experience that youhave I mean, being Senior Vice
President of EcosystemDevelopment at Techstars has got
to be chock full of amazingexperiences and stories, and
then you leverage thatexperience into building the
startup factory which, as I said, is one of the most active seed
investment vehicles in theSoutheast.

(27:12):
Talk to us about those twoexperiences and how it's shaped
your ability to impact largernumbers of entrepreneurs.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
I mean, it's a great little.
You know there's some subtletyin this folks, but, you know,
stay with the story, because Ithink there's some really great
lessons here.
I'm 63, with the energy of a40-year-old and the humor of a
12-year-old right, that's what Ilike to share.
And so with that 63 comes a tonof experiences and a ton of

(27:44):
opportunities to be in things.
So I was lucky enough to startreading about Techstars and Y
Combinator and kind of 2009-ishtimeframe they're both about two
years up and running and justthought well, if one startup is
fun, then 10 at a time should bea complete blast.
Right, right, manually, need tolearn something.
But GRND is a Reddit websitethat can и keep me alive and do

(28:04):
something, nou, about humans,and so kind of stood up a couple
of different versions of whatwe now know as the startup
factory, met Brad Feld and DavidCohen.
You know legends in thisbusiness, you know two of the
four founders of Techstars, andthey just said here's what we
know, here's our wholeaccelerator playbook.
And though we didn't know atthe time, brad was kind of

(28:25):
laying out and, by the way,there's a community aspect of
this and this is how you do it.
He later on went on to writehis first book about this,
called Startup Communities, justa few years later.
So they were mentors, rightback to just reaching out to
tons of people and seeing whatthey know and do, and I learned
a ton from them.
That helped me build thestartup factory with a partner,

(28:47):
dave Neal, and make all thoseinvestments.
This is all in Raleigh, durham,north Carolina.
While doing that, it's just,it's going to happen.
If you kind of stick your headout there and start doing things
, you see gaps and I started,you know, filling those gaps,
putting events together.
I put a funky circus themed jobfair called the Big Top Nice,

(29:09):
you want to talk about.
You know experimenting andcreative juices.
You know job fairs suck.
What sucks about it?
They're too formal.
Let's blow that up.
I ran 15 of them over fiveyears.
Hundreds and hundreds of peoplefound jobs because of them and,
by the way, you have to eat hotdogs and drink beer.
So you know a couple of thegood things in life That'll take

(29:30):
the stiffness out of the room.
Exactly, exactly, I think, bythe tagline.
It was called people just.
It was called tech jobs underthe Big Top, and then people
just called it the Big Top andthe tagline was no suits, no
resume, no bullshit Like, justconnect with people, right?
I share that story to talkabout.

(29:53):
You know, if you care aboutentrepreneurs and startups,
you'll find gaps in yourcommunity and you'll want to
fill them Right.
And so I ended up doing that ina lot of ways, and sometimes
you do them on your own andsometimes you work with others
and sometimes you throw ideasand someone else picks them up
and you help support them onthat, on whatever their little
passion project is.

(30:14):
And you know, I started to seethe way we did it and the
success we did it, a lot of itbased on Brad's book.
And so a bunch of years later,you know we're putting the
startup factory on hiatus for awhile, not making new
investments.
And I'm talking to Brad andDavid and they're like hey, do
you want to work together onsomething?
And you know these are people Ithink are you know the dude

(30:37):
dudes, right?
They're like you know people Ilook up to and think of awesome
thought leaders.
And you know it's like it'slike your best idol asking you
if you want to hang out.
And you're like, yeah, I do,exactly Right.
And so we figured out how tobuild a consulting business
around the lessons they learnedin Boulder, the lessons I

(30:59):
learned in Raleigh, durham, andhow to kind of put them in a
scope and a context and aframework that others could
hopefully learn from.
And God, I mean it was otherthan the travel, but I mean it
was.
I probably visited I don't evenknow how to count 80 to 100
cities over five years and, wow,from speaking at events to

(31:21):
actually doing kind of threemonth to three year consulting
deals all over the world andjust seeing just the energy
about how entrepreneurship canhappen in small cities and big
cities alike.
And I, I thank those guys forasking me to, you know, drive
that forward and to work withthem.
And the books, the product ofthat, you know, obviously.

(31:42):
And yeah.
I felt like it was just so, likeperfect for me, like that was
the thing to do in that stage ofmy life.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
There are times in our careers when things align in
a way that make the pathforward self-evident, and it's
really neat when, when you canbe aware when that happens and
just move forward.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Well, jd, I have to, I have to jump, I have to grab
that because it's so true andyou know, and I said there's
some subtleties.
What's the subtleties?
The subtleties are like me in2009 reaching out and saying,
hey, can I pick your brain?
Socializing the idea.
And then I stayed in touch withthem and I shared some wins and
congratulated them on theirwins and a couple of times I got

(32:27):
them to come to Raleigh Durhamand do a talk, staying building
meaningful connections.
I just think is the, is thelike the foundation of
everything?
And then so the next, you knowI'm sitting in Boulder going
well, what are you doing?
Well, if you want to do thisthing together.
And when I told people that Iwas going to do that, friends of
mine all over the world I say,yeah, I think I'm going to do

(32:48):
this thing.
They're like this is the mostobvious next step for you, like
this is perfect.
Like, to your point, like therewasn't.
I remember calling my wife.
I'm like I'm leaving Boulderflying home.
I'm like I think I just got ajob.
I have a work friend by myselffor 20 years.
I said I think I got a job and,by the way, to their credit,

(33:08):
you know, david Cohen says, isthe CEO of Techstars at the time
says, hey, do you want to dothis?
Like inside tech stars, outsidetech stars, like we don't care?
Right, listen to that for asecond.
Like this isn't, like this isthe way it's going to work, and
we, you know, it's like, yeah,we'll.
Do you want to just figure itout?
And I'm like, yeah, my ego's incheck, I want to do it inside
Techstars.
I want, I want to, I want toleverage your brand that you

(33:30):
amazingly build over the last 10years, and but you know anyway,
there's a spirit inside of whatyou just described, and that
spirit is collaboration.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
That spirit has no ego and that spirit does not get
drawn to hierarchicalorganizations.
I think that's why I lived inCalifornia for 29 years, because
it gave me the freedom.
It was a place where I couldspread my wings and experiment
and not get my wings clippedevery time I tried something new
.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
No, that's not the way we do this, son, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Exactly.
Oh, that's amazing, and so Ithink it is that collaborative
nature that is what drivesprograms like Techstars, startup
Factory, many of the otherecosystems.
And I think what's really neatis and I've heard you talk about
this before and I feel the sameway don't say that we want to

(34:25):
be the next Silicon Valley.
What we do want to do is learnthings that worked in Silicon
Valley, but we also need to knowwhat our core identity is,
whatever that is.
You know there's in economics,there's competitive advantage,
but there's comparativeadvantages right In Ohio, for
example.
Not a lot of people know thereason that Intel selected this

(34:47):
place for the largestsemiconductor plant in the world
is because we are seismicallyboring in Ohio.
We don't have earthquakes and,more importantly I just saw a
map last week we don't have verymany floods.
We don't have hurricanes.
We do have the occasionaltornadoes, but those go to
trailer parks, not data centers.
But what's really interestingis be the best Ohio that you can

(35:12):
be, be the best North Carolinathat you can be, and one of the
things we don't have to competewith Silicon Valley, because I
saw a report I think it was fromthe Brookings Institution that
hyper-concentration of capitaland talent and resources in
Silicon Valley is a problem, andso it's in everyone's best
interest to fragment that anddistribute it more evenly right,

(35:36):
so that there's plenty of roomto go around.
There's, a rising tide reallydoes lift all boats, and I think
it's that knowledge that givesus the freedom to collaborate
and not have to have an ego,because if we genuinely believe
that a rising tide lifts allboats, then we're willing to
have that pay it forwardattitude and know that there's
plenty to go around.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
Well, here, here.
I mean, I've been preachingthis for years and years and
actually seeing it at work.
Yeah, it's tough because one ofthe things that Brad and a guy
that worked for me in Hathawayfound in their second book on
this called the Start ofCommunity Way, of which my Build
the Four, the Start ofCommunity Field Guide, is kind
of like a they're like peas andcarrots, as far as gump would

(36:20):
say.
There were going to be one bookand we decided to split them
into two books, so I'm the fieldguide.
They're like the meta.
We found something called JD,called kind of systems theory,
and we think that is a reallygood model for figuring out how
ecosystems are and to give youthe kind of the minute and a
half version of systems theory.
There's three or four differentkinds of systems, but the ones

(36:44):
that we all know about are andthey're different, even though
they're synonyms in thedictionary.
It's a complicated system and acomplex system and, though that
may sound the same, they'revery different in systems theory
.
And the problem is is thatcomplicated systems you have to
engineer and reverse engineer toa specific like everything

(37:07):
Think about sending a rocket tothe moon right, you go down to
the O-ring cannot freeze pastthis temperature, right?
Or a challenger blows up, andwhen that happens you've got to
reverse engineer and make surethat doesn't happen.
Think about a large,billion-dollar company rolling
up all the finances across theentire company.
Right, you have to have you'reon a journey of finding the

(37:28):
knowns right and making surethere's a system by bringing
that up.
And, in fact, most largecompanies government
universities, large institutionsare run in a complicated
mindset and, in fact, the peoplethat rise to power positions
get to master those muscles andso they're very hierarchical and

(37:49):
very structured organizations,right, and there's no way that
startups can be viewed through acomplicated lens.
They're complex, there's moreunknowns and knowns, and so the
structures and the environmentand your approach has to be more
experimentation and iteration.
The great example of a complexsystem is raising children and

(38:11):
anybody who's been in a familywith multiple children or have
multiple children themselvessame house, same car, same
parents, same food, same church,schooling, whatever, and yet
they end up being completelydifferent beasts.
Exactly Back to comparativecomparing.
Why don't you compare?
You can't compare.
I always say startupcommunities are like children.

(38:31):
They should not be compared.
However, what happens in manycommunities is that the power
brokers that want to buildentrepreneurship and approach it
from an economic developmentpoint of view bring the
complicated mindset, and I don'tblame them.
They've gotten to their powerpositions by mastering that, and

(38:52):
so as part of my consulting isI have to create awareness and
then try to break those musclesand help them build other
muscles, and it's all the thingsyou just mentioned.
It's experimentation, lack ofego, throwing control out the
door and building an environmentwhere, hopefully,
entrepreneurship can flourish.

(39:12):
Because you and I, as oldentrepreneurs, know, the first
thing I want to do is I abhorstructure.
Yep, yep, I want to disruptstructure, not embrace structure
.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Not only do we have to think outside the box.
There is no box, and if you putme in a box, I will smash it
Every day.
I take pride in the fact that Iam virtually unemployable.
But so we've talked about theecosystem.
We've talked aboutcollaboration and launching
ideas and so forth.
Let's transition to the financepart of it.

(39:46):
Not only do you have deepexperience as an entrepreneur
and an ecosystem builder, youhave deep experience as an
investor, as an angel investor,a corporate investor, a micro VC
.
I think one of the thingsthat's most important is once
you find your lightning in abottle.
Understanding how to build agreat product that catches
lightning in a bottle is onething, but building a company,

(40:08):
managing relationships withinvestors and a board of
directors is a whole differentscience.
So talk about the alignmentnecessary and how can first-time
entrepreneurs understand themonopoly game of money and how
to not step in some potholesalong the way.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yeah, fantastic question, because new
entrepreneurs make mistakes andthis is one of the mistakes they
make is their lack of knowledgearound what capital means and
how.
The infusion of the capital,how it actually should change
your brain, change your approach.
How do you deal with yourinvestors, your board of

(40:45):
directors, how to use them asopposed to them using you?
And, first of all, what I willshare is that it's a learned set
of behaviors, and so if you'rean entrepreneur listening and
you're just starting, or you'regetting started early in the
journey, and what I'm going totell you probably don't know

(41:08):
what you don't know yet.
And so go find people likemyself or JD or others who have
been through the journey and askthem what it's like.
Most times when we step in ahole did you say pothole?
I don't remember.
When you step in a pothole,it's because you didn't know the
pothole was there.
So the first thing is askpeople where all the potholes

(41:29):
are.
Let's run this metaphor all theway into the ground, jd.
But just ask, and the idea offiguring everything out of your
own, that's going to slow youdown and you're invariably going
to step in more potholes and Iwant you to avoid those.
And there's good books andthere's podcasts.

(41:51):
There's so much out there.
So the issue is especially inplaces that you and I work in
Ohio, north Carolina, that don'thave the most they're not
Silicon Valley's in terms of itsmaturity, and where the
language and this awareness isjust kind of permeates every
coffee shop.
It's incumbent upon you to getoutside your town of Columbus or

(42:14):
Cleveland or Sinssey If we'retalking Midwest right,
indianapolis and Knoxville andNashville and Richmond, I'm just
thinking about all the placesthat aren't called the valley
and aren't coastal.
It's your job to figure out andgo learn from others that have
gone one year, two years, fiveyears before you and ask those

(42:35):
questions.
The knowledge is out there.
I mean it's out there.
Brad's written a great bookcalled Startup Boards how to
Work with your Board ofDirectors.
I've given that book out moretimes than I can remember.
So, however you like to consumeinformation, it's out there.
I guess our point of this isyou better go out and look for

(42:56):
it, because if not, you're goingto step in potholes which will
either derail you or make yourfeet really wet Right, exactly.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
Well, and what I often tell entrepreneurs because
entrepreneurs are very, veryintelligent people but if you
have not played the monopolygame of venture capital and
building what I like to callyour capital stack, because you
start with angels and then maybeyou get somebody gets a grant
or you get a little micro VC andyou work your way up the ladder
, but customizing that is verymuch a discipline in and of

(43:27):
itself and so understanding themonopoly game and you don't need
an MBA to do that I've doneover a billion and a half
dollars of deals and I don'thave an MBA.
The nice thing is I did havesort of an unfair advantage I
started as a CPA at KPMG, so Igot to do deals that way.
But that's why what I primarilyteach is the Dealmaker Academy,
and it really is just monopolyof venture capital and how to

(43:51):
build your capital stack in anefficient way.
And they're really smart people.
They learn very quickly.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Yeah, it's not like super rocket science.
It is a language.
There's language, there's words, there's understandings,
there's expectations, and Ithink the biggest problem that
people found is that they don'trealize that sometimes the
decision to make today is goingto impact them two deals from
now or two rounds from now.
You're like, oh, I didn't know,that's the way they're going to
play that game, and so that'skind of the knowledge and

(44:20):
awareness we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
I think one of the most important things is to get
alignment between the CEO,founders and investors.
Talk a little bit about becauseyou've sat on both sides of the
table.
Talk a little bit aboutexamples where you've seen
really good alignment on wherewe're going and what are the KPI
measurements that we're goingto use for the next round, how
we're going to define success,and maybe an example,

(44:44):
anonymously, where there wasmisalignment and what the
outcome was.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think it comes down to communication
and how you kind of communicate.
So here's the let me talk aboutthe mistake I believe every new
founder makes and what the goodones do and what the bad ones do
.
So you're raising maybe yourfirst professional round,
venture capital, and you'vetalked to 60 people and you've

(45:14):
sold your heart and soul, right,and you are selling, selling,
selling right.
You're trying to find thatbalance between vision and
actual traction.
And so you get to this placeand, let's say, you go and raise
$2 million from four investors,three investors, whatever.
At that point there's a littleinflection point and this is

(45:36):
what the bad founders do andwhat the good founders do.
The bad founders, these peoplethen invariably take a couple of
board seats.
You have a board meeting everymonth or every quarter, every
couple months.
They get updates and if you'renew to it, what you still do is
you're still thinking you'reselling your investors.
Now you're selling your board,and that's the wrong thing to do

(45:59):
, because you are going to stepin potholes.
You are gonna do-do in the bed,right, and if that's gonna be a
surprise to them, they're notgonna be happy, and that's when
they realize that you don't knowwhat you don't know and that
you lack the right communicationkind of vehicle.

(46:20):
Let me go over to the morepositive.
I've counseled so manyentrepreneurs and I learned this
from Tom McMurray of SequoiaCapital, longtime friend.
Investors only have one tool intheir toolbox, that is, to
replace you.
They don't want to, but if yougive them an excuse to, they're
going to have to and they'rewaiting, looking to see whether

(46:42):
you continue to grow.
And one of those growthinflection points is when you
raise money from them is movingfrom selling to them to
literally peering and partneringwith them, using them even in
the darkest moments.
I can't figure this out.
I don't know why this isn'tworking.
I'm having trouble with myco-founder or my CTO or whatever

(47:04):
it is.
These guys or women have seenit all.
They're there to be a counselorto you, but if you're still in
selling mode, you don't.
You miss that whole piece ofthem.
And so when the crap hits thefan, then that's when you're in
trouble.
And so I kind of caps that in acommunication, in a broadly

(47:27):
stated communication.
Word like that's one thing youhave to learn how to do, and so
the good ones do it and I'veseen the bad ones not do it and
then all of a sudden be likethey're firing me.
I don't know what happened.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
Well, you know, it's interesting because I talk with
entrepreneurs about this a lotand I've been at that table many
, many times and one of thethings that I encourage them to
do is to get that alignment fromthe beginning.
But when you close the round,you need to transition in your
mind from we were sitting acrossthe table from each other and
now you have symbolically moved.

(48:02):
Now we're on the same side ofthe table and now we're
collaboratively solving problemsinstead of I'm no longer
transacting with you, we justgot married.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Yeah, that's a great, great, great.
I'm gonna steal that.
That's a great kind of visualand metaphor in terms of
marriage.
Yeah, I mean, you really haveto partner with them and, by the
way, if you think about it inthat right mindset, that's an
advantage.
You now get to leverage all ofthose experience.
They've looked at thousands ofcompanies, right.

(48:35):
They have each of them have,specific skills in marketing or
operations or finance.
Here's like a free book for youto peruse and dive into at any
moment's notice.
So, gosh Darnit, go use that.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Right.
Well, not only that, and that'show smart money ventures came
to be.
The whole idea is that itmatters who your investor is.
Don't just get money, get smartmoney, people that bring
relationships, experience, priorinvestments, prior exits.
Because you can't buy that.
I mean the first check.
I mean go do the friends andfamily and take $5,000 from

(49:11):
Uncle Bob and all that kind ofstuff.
But when you take your first$100,000 check, get a lead
investor right who has subjectmatter expertise, previous
investments, previous exits,because they're gonna bring
experience to the table.
That will, number one, catapultyou into the next level,
because if you select the rightones, they're gonna bring the
next layer of investors and theyhave a network of people that

(49:34):
you have no idea.
I can't tell you how many timesI've sat with board members and
advisory board members and say,man, if we could just get an
introduction to, for example,the CTO of Cisco, right, and I
can't tell you how many timesthey'd be like, oh yeah, I just
sat next to him at a panel atthe Aspen Institute a couple of
months ago and I'm like, wow,yes, that's why you need smart

(49:55):
money investors, because theperson who made all their money
in real estate at the countryclub that gave you a $50,000
check should not be in charge ofyour strategic planning.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
Yeah, no, please, please don't.
Yeah, I just saw that play outnot too long ago and you know,
or you know, you know, samething.
Like, the guy at the countryclub was an old, you know
private equity guy.
Sure, he's like, well, he wasgiving me good advice.
I was like, well, no, he wasn't, because you're now, you're
closed, you had to shut thething down, so it wasn't good
advice, right, you know?

(50:27):
Maybe, if I can add this partabout like mentorship and advice
, not all mentorship and adviceis created equal, right, yes,
yes, just like there's gooddollars and there's bad dollars,
there's good advice and badadvice.
So, as I counsel founders ohhow do I know which one to look
for?
I said ask this questionwhenever you're seeking advice
from someone.
Right, ask.

(50:48):
The question is have you everlived through this challenge or
issue Exactly?
And not to say you're not goingto listen to what they say, but
just wait that answer less thansomeone who's been through it.
And so it's a simple littlequestion have you seen this?
Have you had this play out foryourself in your career?
And that's just way of kind ofmaybe, yeah, waiting the words

(51:11):
that come back.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Well, I completely agree, because I often say that
if you want to go to the SuperBowl, the best thing you can do
is surround yourself with peoplewho have already been to the
Super Bowl and you know nooffense to people that are very
well meaning and they want togive mentorship and advice, and
they should, but please refrainfrom giving heart surgery advice
if you're a dentist.

(51:33):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
Yeah.
Or, as I say, you know, if yourarm hurts and you go to a
surgeon, don't be surprised whenthey want to do surgery.
Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Right, that's exactly it.
So what is?
You know a lot of our audiences.
You know early stageentrepreneurs.
What is the one piece of advicethat you give the most
frequently that you believeearly stage entrepreneurs need
to understand as a foundationalprinciple?

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Well, I'll couch this by saying I got to ask the
question.
You know all the business I'verun.
Do I have any regrets?
Almost every business.
When I look back on I say tomyself I wish I would have spent
more time in sales.
At my heart, I'm a builder and Ilove the process of kind of
crafting a service or a product.
I obviously don't write codeanymore and have them for years,

(52:24):
but I can think about how toapply technology.
That's in my heart.
I'm a product guy, right, youknow I'm a product manager.
You know, posing as a CEO whenI did it, and I wish I would
have some more time out withcustomers, potential customers,
out in the market to reallyunderstand what they're seeing,
what they're using, what they'reliking.

(52:44):
So that's my advice I usuallygive is you know, don't
overweight your time in terms ofproduct development.
Back to the Steve Blank,alexandra Wosterwalder, ash Mora
.
You know, spend as much time.
And I usually say like, if youdivide all your tasks into two
buckets product development andcustomer development make that

(53:06):
at least 50-50.
And earlier I kind of want youmore like 70 product or sorry,
70 customer, 30 product, andbecause if you understand your
customer or your potentialcustomers and your target.
If you get that part right, Ithink we all have the brains to
figure out the right product andservice that fits that, but
it's trying to jam our idea of aproduct service into a market

(53:28):
that's not ready or doesn'tunderstand.
I think that's where moststartups fail.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
I completely agree.
Well, that's an excellentjumping off point, Chris.
I sure have enjoyed ourconversation, but before we go,
I want to make sure that ourlisteners know how to find more
information about your book.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
Sure, so it's available on Amazon.
You can look under Chris Hivelyor Bill Defour.
Both books are up there andthere's also an audio version,
which is me speaking, by the way, which is another fun challenge
.
That's great.
It's in your own voice.
Yeah, it's my own voice.
When I wrote the first book,people said, god, it's like

(54:06):
you're talking to me and, by theway I write like I talk.
And so when I did the secondone, I'm like I have to do the
audio version, obviously aKindle version.
So those are available at allthe different price points.
I also have a website atHivelycom.
I probably have over 450 to 500blog posts.
They're short, pithy, one ideaconcepts.

(54:30):
So use the search button tofind anything from networking to
capital to complex systems, andthen I invite anybody to email
me.
So it's chris at builddefourcom.
I typically answer everythingwithin two to four days.
I have open office hours.
You can schedule them right onthe website.
They're 20 minutes via Zoom,typically booked a couple of

(54:53):
weeks in advance, but I'll talkabout whatever you want to talk
about.
That's how I stay current.
By the way, jd, as her you talkto and they come from all over
the world, so I get to heardifferent founders, different
cultures.
So lots of ways to engage, andI wouldn't have let all those
out if I didn't actually usethem.
So don't be shy.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Well, I love that spirit and thank you for being a
resource and thank you forbeing an entrepreneur that
continues to give back.
We are definitely like-mindedkindred souls in that spirit.
I think, as we touched onearlier, when you get kicked in
the teeth as a founder, you havea very soft place in our hearts

(55:33):
for those founders that areprobably about to get kicked in
the teeth but at the same time,we understand how essential it
is to create an environmentwhere they can get back up.
You bet we're here for you.
Just ask Exactly Awesome.
Well, that's great, chris.
Thank you again for taking thetime to join us today and my
name is JD David.
It's our host for the SmartMoney Ventures podcast.

(55:55):
Our guest today has been ChrisHively, co-founder of MapQuest
and senior vice president ofecosystem development formally
at Techstars, and founder andmanaging director of the startup
factory in North Carolina andauthor of Build the Fort, and
you can get that book on Amazonor on his website,
buildthefortcom.

(56:15):
Thank you for joining us and welook forward to seeing you on
the next episode of the SmartMoney Ventures podcast.