December 20, 2024 • 58 mins
Today on the podcast we’re going to college in three interviews: First we’ll hear from two students and where they are on their college journey, then we’ll hear from a college official about the process of applying and a rough timeline for students and parents to follow, and finally I talk to a financial advisor and the author of a book on paying for college.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I have a distinct memory from my junior year in high school of walking into the living room and asking my father to help fill out my free application for student aid or FAFSA form.
(00:12):
My father was an airline mechanic. My mother had spent most of her life as a stay-at-home mom, but had started working as a director of an elementary school latchkey program.
Dad had attended City College in New York, which was free to residents, before he was drafted. Rather than being drafted, he enlisted and spent four years in the Air Force.
(00:34):
And then afterwards, he never finished his business degree. Instead, he used the GI Bill to help him earn the credentials he needed for his career.
Mom had professional secretarial jobs before I was born and hadn't needed a college degree for what she wanted to do.
We'd had few, if any, conversations about family finances growing up, but frugality was the law of the land. So it seemed like a huge ask to attend college.
(01:01):
To his credit, Dad filled out the form, even though the weight of the burden I was asking hung in the air.
Every year, that story repeats in one form or another for students here in South Milwaukee and across the country.
Today on the podcast, we're going to college in three interviews. First, we'll hear from two students and where they are on their college journey.
(01:24):
Then we'll hear from a college official about the process of applying and a rough timeline for students and parents to follow.
And finally, I talked to a financial advisor and the author of a book on paying for college.
One note, each interview is going to sound slightly different. We're on an audio college visit here and each leg has a different way our conversation was recorded.
(01:48):
First, we start at South Milwaukee High School with seniors Kalen and Gavin.
So joining us now are two seniors from South Milwaukee High School, Kalen and Kalen is a youth apprentice in the communications department and Gabby, who's a senior.
(02:09):
Welcome to the SMWay podcast. Thank you. Thank you.
So tell me, either of you can start. Just what, where was college on your list of things that you might do after high school?
Sure. Basically, I mean, it's always been something that I've thought about since first year.
(02:30):
And kind of like the excitement of going to college. But as it got closer to senior years, much more of that a freak out because you're constantly wondering, OK, where am I going to go?
How am I going to afford it? But also just mainly excited to kind of just step foot into what you want to do.
After high school and actually go into the career that you want to do. Gabby, do you have an idea of what you want to do? I want to do nursing.
(03:00):
So either registered nursing or pediatric nursing. So, OK, how about you? What's your experience with?
All right. So for me, it was kind of mixed like freshman year. I didn't really want to do college and no idea what I was going to do.
And then as the years progressed, I started thinking about it more, but was entirely sure.
(03:21):
Didn't know if I wanted to just go into workforce right after.
And then senior year this year, I started really thinking about it and then started thinking about it.
And then I was like, OK, where do I start? Like, I didn't really take any college prep courses.
And I felt very behind compared to all the other students.
And then there was a little bit of direction from a few of my teachers.
(03:43):
So that definitely helps. And I'm thinking about going into marketing and communications or possibly other business majors.
Sure. And where are you guys going to go?
Right now in that process, have you applied? Have you been accepted? Where are you?
So I currently applied to MITC and I got in. It's 100 percent acceptance rate.
(04:05):
And then I applied to UWM and that's the top school I want to go to.
So now all I need to do is apply to FAFSA and a few other things and scholars for that.
It should be OK then. OK. Hopefully. How about you, Gabby?
Sure. What do you look for when you're looking for colleges?
(04:30):
Both the ones each of you mentioned are close by. Is that one of them?
What makes you consider college colleges?
So you're looking at college colleges.
So you're looking at college colleges.
So you're looking at college colleges.
(04:56):
Basically, just being closer to home and not having to worry about being away from home just in case if you need the extra support.
But also just since working and coming up with money to also go to college.
So you're able to still go to school, but also make money at the same time in a closer span.
(05:20):
Instead of trying to find a job to whatever college you're going to and trying to redo that whole cycle.
That's interesting. So you know the job market here.
And so you know how to find a job where you're at versus going to Madison where that's it.
And you're competing with every other student that's at Madison U.
(05:41):
Honestly, that would be the same for me. Something local so the drive isn't too far.
And then obviously being a college student money is a hard thing to come by.
So if I feel like if I went out of state, it'd be a lot more difficult.
And you're pretty much starting over. You're on your own.
You have to make new friends, which isn't that hard.
But dorming with people compared to being at home so then you're saving money. That's another thing.
(06:06):
Yeah. And I know you have a job already, right?
You have a couple part-time jobs so you don't have to quit those, right?
No, I can still work there. So that's good.
Yeah.
Gabby, did you do the nursing program?
Yes, I did. And I am a CNA now so it's kind of a nice thing to have, especially when I am going into college.
So then I can still work as a CNA, but also make pretty good money.
(06:31):
So you can keep up with school and be able to afford the classes that I need to and everything.
So it's a good balance to help out with it.
Sure. And how do your parents feel about all this?
I am a first-generation college graduate. My folks had no idea what we were doing.
The FAFSA for us was handwritten. So I filled it out. They signed it and we sent it away.
(06:58):
What's it been like for you?
My parents have been very supportive of it. My mom didn't go to college.
My dad went to college for a few years to become a firefighter. So they've been really supportive with everything.
They've been helping me financially and I appreciate it a lot.
I think the main thing they're worried about is the money for college tuition and how that's going to work.
(07:25):
Or if I want to switch my major halfway through, they're stressed about that and I don't blame them.
How about you?
Pretty much the same thing that she said. Basically, they've been really supportive about it and encouraging me to do everything.
My dad didn't go to college, but I know my mom went to college for two years for nursing and everything.
So it's kind of a nice thing to compare to.
(07:47):
But also they're just worried that especially with the type of field that I'm going to,
just worrying about I'm not going to go through with it or easily just like, okay, whatever, I can't do it.
But otherwise just worrying about coming up with the money, still supporting it for all the classes.
And just worried that maybe I'll just switch or just drop it.
Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's real. I mean, as someone, I still am paying off my undergraduate diploma, right?
(08:14):
So I took a long time to get on feet after college and to start making money where you could start paying for that.
So honest, like real considerations you guys both have.
I think that leads us really right into our next guest.
So thank you guys both for coming on the podcast and being brave. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Yes, thank you.
(08:38):
Joining us now on the podcast is Marwil Santiago.
He is the director of student recruiting and the call center at MATC, Malaki Area Technical College.
Marwil, welcome to the SMY podcast.
Hey, Dan. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really happy to be here and share what we have to offer about at MATC.
(09:00):
Awesome. If if before I get into the questions, tell us a little bit about MATC and what it offers students.
Sure thing. Well, MATC is, you know, it's been in the community for a very long time.
In 2012, we celebrated 100 years.
(09:21):
So we have a very strong foothold within the Milwaukee community.
We're known as the technical college in the in the area where you can really, you know,
just train up and set yourself up for a really good career in a short amount of time.
And we also have a ton of transfer programs that students can take advantage of.
(09:48):
So once they complete their associate degree in the career of their choice,
they can usually take advantage of a really good transfer opportunity that we have set up for our programs.
OK, that leads great into the end of our questions.
What do students and parents need to know when or to think about when they're selecting a college?
(10:10):
Sure. Well, I think, you know, it really starts with a lot of I like to use the word research, you know,
so getting to know yourself, getting to know what are the interests and what career you would like to align yourself with.
Honestly, there are a lot of careers that you can probably kick off right out of high school.
(10:34):
But we see college education as a way to enhance your opportunities.
So, you know, figuring out your specific path and then finding the school that helps you achieve that is is the main goal.
I like to, you know, it's part of my job, but I truly do believe it.
(10:56):
But MATC does have a pathway for just about every career path that you can think of,
starting at really short technical programs that, you know, that can be done in as little as one semester.
Certificates or digital badges, those then lead into our technical diplomas, which then lead into associate degrees.
(11:22):
That's the highest level that we offer at MATC.
But from the associate degree, just about all of our programs do have those transfer opportunities that I mentioned.
So I guess when we when I talk about finding your path, I often can find the path for you through MATC,
(11:45):
even if the goal is, let's say, a Ph.D. at the end of the road, it's definitely possible through us.
Sure. And then do you get students at technical colleges seem to have a very clear destination,
like you will have a certification in X or the technical aspect, like a skill, you're going to pick up a skill.
(12:12):
But what if a student doesn't quite know what they want to do right out of high school?
Yeah, you know, and we have that, you know, a lot of four year colleges offer opportunities for students to sign up as undecided
and, you know, within a certain amount of time and after taking a lot of general courses.
(12:34):
It's expected that the student would then choose a major and focus on that major for, you know, usually the second half of their college career.
So at MATC, we do offer general degrees, Associated Arts or Associated Sciences.
And then we that basically provide the first two years of any four year degree.
(13:03):
And you say you're in the associate degree that doesn't necessarily have a career track,
but it does get you to the four year college of your choice.
So, you know, I guess in some sense, that's a way for some undecided students to start college.
And if they know that the four year degree is the ultimate goal and great, I think, you know,
(13:26):
it's a great place to pick up a few new subjects and gain those really core academic credits, math and English.
And a lot of your sciences can be done here.
And they're just as good, if not better, as the courses that you'll find at our four year partners.
(13:51):
And the only reason I say that is one, I guess two reasons that I'm going to point out right away is the cost.
So our general transfer credits are at just under two hundred dollars per credit.
So a full year of, you know, the transfer degree would cost roughly six thousand dollars of full time studies.
(14:17):
So I think you can do a bit of research and find that throughout the community, you know,
those first two years that any other school will cost considerably a lot more.
Sure. Yeah. A major, a major concern with parents for sure. And and students as we just heard from our two students.
(14:39):
So we did. Yeah, two. That's right. I have to say it's you know, it's our small class sizes.
I remember taking organic chemistry here at the college and our class was less than 20 students led by a professor with a Ph.D.
All the credentials that any other university professor would have.
(15:04):
And those credits transferred to UWM quite well.
And when I connected with some of my peers at UWM and I asked them about their organic chemistry experience,
well, they took theirs and a lecture hall of about 300 students and had mostly a connection with the T.A.
During a smaller discussion and lab breakouts where my professor taught both our lab and our lectures.
(15:29):
Right. Yeah. Fair to consider, right.
That if everyone has to take the class, obviously they're going to fit as many students in that class as they can.
And then, yeah, I hadn't thought of that in a while. But, yeah, those one on one courses are usually pretty big.
Right. The class sizes. So we've learned in our last episode about the A.C.T.
(15:51):
that the way maybe my generation understood how they were used has has really changed.
How has the admission process changed? Because that ties into it a little bit, too.
Sure. How's it work? Well, we've never really we've used A.C.T. in the past.
But in the past, we also had our own entrance exam with the A.C.T.
(16:16):
Placer. And essentially, if you had A.C.T. scores, you would be exempt from the A.C.T.
Placer or more if you did the A.C.T.
Placer, we wouldn't need your A.C.T. scores. We basically used one or the other at this point.
And for a few years now, we have removed any kind of testing as a requirement for admission.
(16:41):
Our advising team has switched over to a whole student, a holistic advising model that looks at everything from high school grades and GPAs,
perhaps even work experience, and they're starting to develop other methods to to play students that would be more
(17:02):
appropriate and indicative of where the students should be placed in terms of what class.
We've also, you know, in the past, A.C.T. Placer would have placed you perhaps in non credit bearing courses
to prep you for academic success.
(17:24):
But we have actually found that that was a barrier for students to achieve success because spending so much time in the classroom not achieving credit could be pretty disheartening.
So our new model has college bearing courses, college credit bearing courses for just about all of our incoming students.
(17:49):
And we build in support for those students who need it.
So instead of keeping them in a limbo state of pre-college coursework,
we put them into the appropriate college course where they're earning credit, but also receiving the support that they need through either mandatory tutoring or
(18:14):
more one on one work with the instructor.
OK.
If you could maybe zoom out a little bit industry wide, is is that a layer that maybe parents didn't realize there were before and what are the other layers?
Sure. Well, right. And A.C.T.s and other tests, you know, they are still being used.
(18:37):
But the trend is it's not as required as it used to be.
So more and more schools are taking on the holistic approach. But if someone is looking into more traditional academic track for college,
it's probably recommended to to look into A.C.T.s and do that traditional prep work to to get a good score.
(19:04):
You know, because it does help with your depending on the college or university that you're applying to.
You know, it just really depends on whether they're required or not.
Sure. We understand not everyone is a good tester.
So that's at least for me, not a good indication as to whether you'll be a good student or not.
(19:25):
Sure. And aside from the A.C.T.s, I mean, so like I personally, when I did it, I had to fill out a I went to a state school in New York
and there was one application for all state schools.
So it's one application fee and that.
But it wasn't online or anything. We had to mail it out to all the schools that we were interested in.
(19:51):
And then there were essays and those other things.
Just generally, what are the requirements? Like usually, what is the track for if just advice for parents?
Should you go visit schools? Should you learn the application process first?
Should you what should what should you know and when should you do it?
(20:12):
Because we talked to some seniors who aren't, you know, still figuring it out.
When in their career should they be looking at college and considering what to do next?
Well, ideally, the college conversation is happening in middle school because we're talking about careers
and really starting to hone in on what some of those interests will be.
(20:36):
Because once you get to high school and you're in ninth grade, if you have a clear idea of where you want to go,
then you can start taking advantage of the right perhaps dual enrollment courses
or joining the right clubs to get you that experience or even getting that part time job.
If you're looking to a culinary arts career, you got to start working in the kitchen.
(21:00):
So might as well start in high school.
If you're looking to get into a health care career, looking for opportunities to become perhaps a CNA
or even an EMT towards your older years in high school.
If you're a CNA, you can actually become one at the age of 16 and that's a requirement to get into our nursing program.
(21:26):
So and beyond that, even if the student is looking into going to a four year track,
when they get to that university, if they have the CNA license, now hopefully they can get a job
perhaps at the local clinic or a hospital while in school instead of nothing against coffee shops.
(21:51):
I love my coffee shop.
But if you can start getting your practical and career experience while you're in college,
that's going to put you ahead of others.
Sure. And one of the students we talked to, Gabby, that's her goal.
She is applying or going to go to a technical college.
She mentioned Gateway, but she also said MATC and that she has her CNA
(22:16):
and she plans to work through while she's doing the next thing.
And then so that's you're kind of planning that out and then application time frames in general.
So right. So, you know, now that we've kind of settled in on perhaps career choice
and the type of experiences the student is looking at,
(22:40):
you want to start really honing in on decisions by your junior year.
That's when we have direct admit opportunities coming your way and opting in
if that's something you want to pursue or at least by the time it's your turn
to start filling out the applications, which usually happens in the fall of your senior year.
(23:05):
You want to fill out that application with a level of confidence that you know what you're signing up for.
It is not uncommon for students to be in a really undecided state at this time of year,
closer to the holidays or even into the spring semester.
As I mentioned earlier, colleges certainly have are aware of that.
(23:29):
So they provide undecided options so students can still apply for college,
perhaps just say I'm undecided as to what career I want to take on.
But at least a college application is in.
And if you get that in, you'll just follow the steps that the college or university is asking you to take after that.
(23:55):
And you want to start looking to scholarships and to your financial aid opportunities.
And I highly recommend that everyone, everyone, everyone complete a FAFSA.
It's a free application for federal student aid.
It doesn't cost you anything but time.
In the last two years, they really simplified the application to make it easier on families to complete.
(24:20):
And even if you believe your family wouldn't be eligible to receive aid, it's still recommended that you do it because one,
you never know until the numbers are crunched and you get the results.
And two, a lot of private scholarships require a financial aid package or FAFSA to be submitted
because oftentimes that's what's used to verify income and other data.
(24:47):
Interesting. OK. I didn't know that part. That's great.
Yeah, I did. I did it for my master's, which I finished a few years ago and it took about 30 minutes, I'd say, tops to fill that out.
I had all the data, though, because it's my income that we're talking about.
And the student might have to go talk to their parents or do some other things.
Well, one of the great features of the updates for the FAFSA, which parents should celebrate
(25:13):
and perhaps parents who helped students in the last few years and now have students starting the process
or younger students starting the process again, they're going to find it to be a lot more simple.
And essentially, everyone does their piece on their own.
The student completes the FAFSA and then a link or the parent has to create their own FSA ID
(25:37):
and eventually submit their data because it's going to be linked to their kids data.
But the applications are technically separate.
OK, great. Thank you for that.
And then the last question I have has to do specifically with, I think, where MATC is placed in the marketplace.
(25:58):
When I went to college, it was recommended that at least I went to liberal arts college and they said,
hey, liberal arts degree is a great place to start.
And when you get into your job, they're going to train you.
And that never came to fruition ever.
But that was the line we got.
But it seems to me now, at least at the high school level, we are career focused
(26:24):
rather than education focused after the idea that job holder employers want to know what you know and what you can do for them.
Is that the correct read on the marketplace right now, what students should be thinking about?
At least from our perspective through the lens of a technical college, yes.
(26:49):
We have employers begging us for new students and we try to graduate them as quickly as possible
because the skills that our students are walking out with are skills that will be used on day one.
I have a perfect example of one of our student ambassadors who worked in our recruitment office,
(27:12):
graduated class of twenty three as a welding technologist, an associate's degree offered at our West Dallas campus.
He got a job right away and immediately was in charge of five other workers who were on the line.
And that young man who was only about 20 years old at the time had the proper training and skills to hit the ground running.
(27:41):
I asked him point blank what kind of training did they provide for you in order to start working?
And he said basically not much more.
We were trained on the same systems, the same equipment.
So I really was able to do the job on day one.
Awesome. Awesome. That's great to hear because I know that when I graduated, I said, OK, now what?
(28:05):
Right. And it took another few years to get a real track in those skills built up and in that trap of everybody wants you to have experience.
But you're applying for your first job without any experience. Right. That's what you're looking for.
Right. I mean, and really think about it.
(28:27):
You know, this is a great way for young people to kick off a career, even if that career, you know, you won't maybe you won't weld for the rest of your life.
But it's going to set you up for a few years.
And perhaps you go into industrial management from that point and you got an MBA.
You know, it's not the end of the road to finish with one of our associate degrees.
(28:49):
In fact, you just it's the beginning. You kick off that career.
It sets you up. And from there, the decisions that you make will often lead to a really good and lifelong career that involves many aspects.
OK. Well, Marwell Santiago, thank you so much for being on the SMA Podcast.
(29:10):
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Go Rockets.
Thank you for having us.
Our next guest is Howard R. Freeman, a financial advisor and author.
His latest book is called Making College Happen, an insightful guide to making savvy financial decisions and cutting college costs.
(29:32):
Howard, welcome to the podcast. It's a pleasure to be here.
So tell us, I gave you a little bit of background about South Milwaukee before we started recording.
What do students and parents need to know about paying for college?
Well, the biggest thing is essentially to set a budget in terms of what you think you can afford.
(30:00):
Many times I tell students and families to set maybe a fixed budget and say, OK, mom and dad can contribute ten thousand dollars, let's say.
And the rest is something that's made up through to the long scholarships or whatever.
So that's really a good way of paying it. So it's no surprises.
(30:28):
The other things are when students get their financial aid awards, they spell out essentially what the college costs are.
And that includes the really the gross cost of college, which is tuition, room, board and other expenses.
(30:49):
And then from that is deducted any scholarships or any type of financial aid.
So the main thing, number one, is to look at the bottom line and see what the net cost is if you're getting an offer.
The second thing is really deciding if that net cost is doable and if it is doable.
(31:17):
Talk about it in terms of, you know, how many loans you want to take, you know, should a parent or a student own the loan.
And and finally, is the college really worth it?
Is it worth it to spend a lot of money for a career that's not going to pay much?
(31:39):
Normally with colleges and when you're looking at colleges and comparing awards, I look at several things.
One, I do comparisons by a spreadsheet to see what the quality of the award is, how much of it is as scholarships, how much of it is work study.
(32:00):
And with that, and one thing that changes share that everybody should know is any award you get can be appealed.
There's a process called professional judgment.
And that means that you can go back to the school and request a review for additional financial aid.
(32:26):
So those are things that can be done. Those are tools.
But I really think the biggest thing is to decide if the career path justifies the costs.
A simple example may help.
Let's say a student wants to become a social worker.
(32:51):
And that particular field doesn't pay that much. Why go to an expensive college when you can get the same degree at a state school?
Or better still, you can start off at a community college and then transfer.
Now, that just shows that why graduate with a bunch of debt if you have a position that's not going to pay you much.
(33:18):
I think I would say, and it's been 20 years since I was in college and more, but that when I approached my parents with this, there was no, I'm the first person to go to college.
There's no concept of what they could afford versus what I could afford. And we just kind of rolled with it.
(33:40):
Do you find that that's what a lot of people experience? Because I know that if I said, putting myself back into my 17-year-old self, if I said, hey, we got to pay for this, can you afford it?
They would say no.
You have to, again, right up front, have a conversation. Students and parents should have an open discussion between what their goal is as far as what college they're interested in and how much the cost will be.
(34:19):
So there's really no sticker shock. It's terrible, not terrible, but a little bit frustrating if a student is accepted into college and they're really happy and the parents say, hey, we can't pay for it because we didn't talk about it.
So the important thing, and I put it in my book, is to have this conversation.
(34:41):
And I put a bunch of questions that the student should ask the parent and the parent should ask the student and reasons why they want to go to college.
Why do they want to go to college? What do they plan to get out of it?
Because I think the biggest challenge is to make decisions from the heart and not the head.
(35:04):
I think you can't, parents should not feel guilty if they can't pay for college. They shouldn't.
And the student should accept that and say, OK, if I want to go to college, let me start off economically because they know I can't burden my parents, especially as they get older.
(35:25):
They have retirement to think of. They may be in a shaky job market.
So parents have to protect themselves while enabling this student to attend the best college they can at the best value and hope when they graduate, they'll make enough money to pay their debt down if there is any.
(35:50):
Has college changed that perspective? You talked about having a career path.
I remember when I attended, it was always the value of a liberal arts education and your job will train you when you get out.
But just having these skills are going to help you.
And I think statistically, if you look at the people who the income of people who have a college degree versus don't is what they use to justify that kind of conversation is calculus different today.
(36:19):
I think what's changed is there's a changing dynamics in terms of. United States in the world.
I think what's happening is.
Students are second second guessing or thinking of college is really worth it.
(36:40):
I think that's a key. Is it really worth it?
The dynamics that are changing are.
College does not provide a guarantee of success.
Success is something that you have to gain personally and make the most of your college education.
(37:02):
What's changing is that the number of people attending college is declining to a certain degree because of covid because of the fact that maybe they need to make a living for us.
Maybe they need to be entrepreneurial if they want and simply it's not a tragedy if they can't afford it because there's a lot of choices and you look at the choices.
(37:29):
What are the choices? You got a trade school. You can study online.
You can go part time. Maybe you could work for a company that that pays for your tuition.
You go into the military.
You can do a lot of different things.
If money is an issue and you can always at any time in your life.
(37:54):
Get a degree.
There's no age limit on how long it takes to get a degree and I know people have helped people that are married and they never got to get their degree or finish it.
So they took part time courses. So they studied online and they succeeded.
So there is a certain amount of pressure.
(38:16):
For children and families to go to college.
But pressure is something self imposed. I use two simple acronyms in my book.
Yes and no.
And what I said is the first thing is you have to kind of get over the fear and the stress of going through this process.
(38:38):
It could be frightful. You don't have to be spooked out by this process.
But yes means you expect success.
So I'm just saying to say yes.
You're you're expecting success and you always have to think positively about what can I do to get an education and for no.
(39:02):
I put new opportunities.
So there's a lot of opportunities, a lot of demand for people that can get degrees or maybe not even get a bachelor's degree in some of the professions such as nursing, such as you know, accounting or computers.
(39:26):
And they're available again through community college, etc.
A lot of students, depending on their income, maybe in total to Pell Grant, if they have low income.
So that helps. And that's something that does not have to be repaid. They may get work study.
(39:48):
So, regardless of income, there are always opportunities and you have to be you have to expect success.
If we could step back for a second, if you could tell me, could you put it in steps?
You know, is step one applying to the colleges and step to figure out how to pay for it or step one saying what's our what's our costs?
(40:11):
Is it really shopping like am I going online and looking at what they're doing?
Let me give you what I think the steps should be.
OK, the first step is relax. That's a first step. Take a deep breath. I tell people, you know, get a coke, get some pizza, whatever.
Relax. The second step is to have a family discussion, to really ask the questions again that have outled in my book, to really get to the to the, you know,
(40:45):
to the bottom line in terms of what the student is interested in and what the parent feels they can pay.
And I think you have that discussion back and forth. And then the other thing that's very important.
And I say, go to the career placement office and find out what majors and careers are worth pursuing,
(41:10):
because that's ultimately after you go through college, you know, what are you going to college for?
What kind of degree? What kind of program is it worth it?
So I think you have to really go through those steps.
And the other thing is you have to do your due diligence and look at colleges. And what do I mean by that?
(41:31):
Look at the statistics. I like to look at what is the acceptance rate.
If the acceptance rates really high, I don't think it's a highly competitive college.
It may not be a bad college. What is the turnover rate?
How many people stay at that college? How much do they give out in scholarships and financial aid?
(41:57):
And how much of the unmet need do they cover? What are some of the programs they offer?
How many graduates get employment through, you know, through the college?
So, OK, the next thing I would do and I've given examples, a very, very detailed college visit checklist.
(42:23):
And many people go to college and I've heard it. Well, what did you think of the college?
Oh, I thought it was nice. Would you like about oh, the kids were nice.
I like it. You know, it's nice. It's in a nice climate.
And no, you've got to really have your questions together and you've got to look at it to do insightful questions.
(42:51):
You know, go to a class, go to a, you know, go to the some of the offices where the majors are.
You know, look at the cafeteria or whatever they call it. Look at the bulletin board. Read the newspaper.
You know, your gut will tell you. Your gut always tells you if this feels right.
(43:16):
And if you have an opportunity to go to the financial aid office, you know, talk to them, find out how much they award.
What is their basis? What can they do to help you? What is the appeal process?
So you're essentially really digging deep rather than a superficial visit.
(43:37):
Then I think, you know, once you apply and complete the financial aid forms of FASO and or the profile,
then you really have to do a thorough analysis, as I said earlier, about what is the net cost of the college.
And then you look at alternatives. Well, I'll give you some.
(44:01):
So maybe this will help people understand. OK.
By completing the FASO form, the student automatically gets a Stafford loan of fifty five hundred.
That's the loan that the student is responsible for. OK.
The parent can get a parent plus loan for which they are responsible.
(44:26):
So if they have good credit, if they have bad credit, then the student would get an additional staffer.
OK. So there are programs where they have installment payment plans.
We can pay so much a month for 10 months. And by doing that, it eases the burden somewhat.
(44:49):
Then you can kind of look, well, loans. Well, there's the federal loans, which are primarily the the Stafford loan and parent plus loan.
And then this was called alternative loans.
Where they come in is based on the parents credit and the parent becomes a co-signer.
(45:12):
So if the student fails to repay the loan, they become a co-signer and the parent may be eligible.
So those are things that will pay for it.
Then you have to kind of look at some of the government and other relief programs that will pay for the loan.
(45:34):
If a student decides to go in certain professions or work in certain areas.
Then I think after that, you have to look at the repayment options.
What are they? And I think, you know, as you look at loans, you also have to have your list of questions.
What could those questions be? What is your interest rate? Is it fixed? A variable?
(45:58):
Is there any relief if I lost my job?
You know, do you do provide some, you know, relief or can I stop paying for a while?
What happens if I die? You know, private loans don't provide provisions when people die.
The parent plus loan does. So you get its insurance and peace of mind versus going to the open market and securing funds.
(46:29):
Then I think going through all the steps, you look at the repayment options on the federal loans because there are multiple repayment options.
Some are, you know, progressive. Some are fixed. Some are deferred. Some are based on employment.
(46:55):
And then you look at ways ultimately what are ways of funding the loan or funding the education?
People can take home equity loan or lines. They can use a 529 plan if they have it.
(47:16):
They can work on their retirement options. I do not recommend that.
And the reason that they don't is, you know, that's the parents lifetime savings. They're going to need it after the student graduates.
And then finally, you know, in the book, I talk about employment and the one thing that's very important that kind of ties it all together is
(47:43):
students sometimes fail to realize that when they do a resume to take the word I out, that's kind of hard to do.
But when you apply for a job, you're selling yourself and skills.
So you have to kind of turn around and say, this is what I could offer. This is how I could solve your problems.
(48:09):
This is how I can save you money. It's not about the eye. It's about to you.
This whole process of college admission, you know, recruiting, it's also buy and sell.
Colleges do go out and they recruit and they they have a certain, you know, what they call enrollment management
(48:38):
that they're going after a certain type of student. They want to do that.
So they're going after you. So they're shopping for students.
And then the student, on the other hand, and their families do the buying.
So what am I going to buy? You know, based upon what they offer.
(49:01):
So it's a whole there's a lot of dynamics. And then along with it, there are other people that are involved beyond somebody like me, who's a financial aid consultant.
There's bankers, there's financial people, because sometimes you want an outside opinion to ensure that the decisions you make are sound or financially sound.
(49:27):
Even if it means bad news for the for the student.
That's the key. And again, keep your statistics always report to one another.
I think students and parents should evaluate the schools separately.
And I think really why why that event? What do you mean evaluate separately?
(49:51):
Well, I think when you I think when you go on a college visit and you have what I call a checklist, then with a bunch of questions, I think the student has a set of questions and the parent has theirs.
For example, the parent may ask about student safety.
(50:12):
They may ask about medical provisions. They may ask about if a student has special circumstances or needs.
The student may ask questions about courses or frats or social life.
And I think if I think if the parent and student evaluates their criteria, maybe one to ten.
(50:35):
And then when you all come together, compare your notes and say, hey, this is a this is a good one or let's move on.
So I think you're getting two perspectives in terms of this is this a candidate for consideration or isn't it.
So I could see that being collaborative, but I could also see it being a source of argument in a family, right, like a parent is a big on the know any you'd mentioned this a little bit before.
(51:07):
But any tips on on building that collaboration before you get into a confrontation?
I think collaboration up in business, you know, worked in businesses for many years and gone through many, many meetings.
I think you argue your point with facts, not feelings, facts, not feelings.
(51:31):
So if you have the facts, if the student can present the facts and say, I want to go to ABC College, you know, they're they offer a lot of financial aid.
I want to go to the exact major that I want.
And probably the net cost of going to this college is ten thousand dollars.
(51:52):
That's a pretty convincing argument.
OK, then the other argument might be the the parent may say, well, I never went to college.
You know, this is crazy.
You've got to listen to one another part of communication is empathetic listening.
You've got to listen to one another.
(52:14):
And what the student wants is the national the same as a parent.
So you have to come to some happy medium because the student.
Has to realize that they may encumber large debt if the parents can provide it and the parents have their humility and pride.
(52:37):
They want to help this student. They love this student.
They want them to get the best.
But it's hard sometimes, but you just have to be honest with another.
It's not always personal. It's factual.
So if you argue with facts and then the other thing is find a place where you're comfortable.
(53:00):
You know, if you go into the living room and the whole family is surrounding you and you've got both sides.
No, you know, go out for lunch, go someplace leisurely, you know, talk about it when you go to college.
But I think listening facts and understanding and empathy that the student, the parent students have for their parents and vice versa.
(53:30):
In the few minutes that we have left, I'm wondering if there is a safe ratio of return to investment or should we be paying attention to the current job market, knowing that the future job market for years might be different?
Because you'd mentioned that that that return, the expected salary versus the debt encumbered is a calculus. But is there a sweet spot where we say reasonably this is a reasonably safe risk to take?
(54:05):
Well, one thing that I recommend and it's available through the US Department of Labor Statistics is a book is called Occupational Outlook Handbook and get it online.
What that shows is statistics and data relative to hundreds, maybe thousands of jobs in terms of the educational requirements, the demand for the position and basically what you need or what level of degrees to get.
(54:41):
And I think that's a really good resource because it's unbiased. It's based on statistics.
There's no one formula, you know, met with thousands of clients. There's no one formula, no one answer that I can give you without knowing the facts.
(55:02):
So when I help people with the faster the profile, more than filling in the forms, I really do a deep analysis of where they stand.
And give them ideas, give them suggestions. And also, I question the student to be honest with me and tell me what they really want.
(55:25):
And sometimes parents cringe because they may say it's not necessarily correct. I want my child to go to state school because cheaper, not necessarily.
So if you went to state school, I'll take I don't know the numbers. Let's say University of Wisconsin.
(55:47):
And it only costs thirty five thousand dollars a year to go there, but they're not giving out heavy scholarships.
So that cost of and again, this is just made up information is twenty two thousand dollars.
Then you apply to, you know, private college. I think Marquette is that in Wisconsin?
(56:17):
Yes, sir. Yeah. So you got Marquette. Marquette's a really good school and they really like the student.
And Marquette costs fifty thousand, but they have some benevolent graduate that wants to give them a scholarship.
So they get out and it's only ten thousand to go to Marquette. You know, people don't realize that.
(56:43):
So the private schools have more money to give out and the net cost may be less than going to state college, community college, much less.
And I do tell people, maybe in conclusion, if money is an issue, go to community college and then transfer and get a really darn good education.
(57:05):
You can take your credits. You could work possibly part time, you know, go to an online program or anything because you don't have to go to college full time.
You can go part time and get your degree. OK. Well, that Howard, our Freeman author of Making College Happen,
(57:27):
the insightful guide to making savvy financial decisions and cutting college costs.
Sir, this is a first for us having an online interview like this. So we really appreciate you taking your time and sharing your knowledge with our parents.
Well, it was my pleasure and I hope whatever I said will will help your audience.
(57:49):
Thank you for all our guests on this important but very long episode. And thank you to you for listening.
This has been the SMI podcast. We will see you in twenty twenty five.
I have a distinct memory from my junior year in high school of walking into the living room and asking my father to help fill out my free application for student aid or FAFSA form.
(00:12):
My father was an airline mechanic. My mother had spent most of her life as a stay-at-home mom, but had started working as a director of an elementary school latchkey program.
Dad had attended City College in New York, which was free to residents, before he was drafted. Rather than being drafted, he enlisted and spent four years in the Air Force.
(00:34):
And then afterwards, he never finished his business degree. Instead, he used the GI Bill to help him earn the credentials he needed for his career.
Mom had professional secretarial jobs before I was born and hadn't needed a college degree for what she wanted to do.
We'd had few, if any, conversations about family finances growing up, but frugality was the law of the land. So it seemed like a huge ask to attend college.
(01:01):
To his credit, Dad filled out the form, even though the weight of the burden I was asking hung in the air.
Every year, that story repeats in one form or another for students here in South Milwaukee and across the country.
Today on the podcast, we're going to college in three interviews. First, we'll hear from two students and where they are on their college journey.
(01:24):
Then we'll hear from a college official about the process of applying and a rough timeline for students and parents to follow.
And finally, I talked to a financial advisor and the author of a book on paying for college.
One note, each interview is going to sound slightly different. We're on an audio college visit here and each leg has a different way our conversation was recorded.
(01:48):
First, we start at South Milwaukee High School with seniors Kalen and Gavin.
So joining us now are two seniors from South Milwaukee High School, Kalen and Kalen is a youth apprentice in the communications department and Gabby, who's a senior.
(02:09):
Welcome to the SMWay podcast. Thank you. Thank you.
So tell me, either of you can start. Just what, where was college on your list of things that you might do after high school?
Sure. Basically, I mean, it's always been something that I've thought about since first year.
(02:30):
And kind of like the excitement of going to college. But as it got closer to senior years, much more of that a freak out because you're constantly wondering, OK, where am I going to go?
How am I going to afford it? But also just mainly excited to kind of just step foot into what you want to do.
After high school and actually go into the career that you want to do. Gabby, do you have an idea of what you want to do? I want to do nursing.
(03:00):
So either registered nursing or pediatric nursing. So, OK, how about you? What's your experience with?
All right. So for me, it was kind of mixed like freshman year. I didn't really want to do college and no idea what I was going to do.
And then as the years progressed, I started thinking about it more, but was entirely sure.
(03:21):
Didn't know if I wanted to just go into workforce right after.
And then senior year this year, I started really thinking about it and then started thinking about it.
And then I was like, OK, where do I start? Like, I didn't really take any college prep courses.
And I felt very behind compared to all the other students.
And then there was a little bit of direction from a few of my teachers.
(03:43):
So that definitely helps. And I'm thinking about going into marketing and communications or possibly other business majors.
Sure. And where are you guys going to go?
Right now in that process, have you applied? Have you been accepted? Where are you?
So I currently applied to MITC and I got in. It's 100 percent acceptance rate.
(04:05):
And then I applied to UWM and that's the top school I want to go to.
So now all I need to do is apply to FAFSA and a few other things and scholars for that.
It should be OK then. OK. Hopefully. How about you, Gabby?
Sure. What do you look for when you're looking for colleges?
(04:30):
Both the ones each of you mentioned are close by. Is that one of them?
What makes you consider college colleges?
So you're looking at college colleges.
So you're looking at college colleges.
So you're looking at college colleges.
(04:56):
Basically, just being closer to home and not having to worry about being away from home just in case if you need the extra support.
But also just since working and coming up with money to also go to college.
So you're able to still go to school, but also make money at the same time in a closer span.
(05:20):
Instead of trying to find a job to whatever college you're going to and trying to redo that whole cycle.
That's interesting. So you know the job market here.
And so you know how to find a job where you're at versus going to Madison where that's it.
And you're competing with every other student that's at Madison U.
(05:41):
Honestly, that would be the same for me. Something local so the drive isn't too far.
And then obviously being a college student money is a hard thing to come by.
So if I feel like if I went out of state, it'd be a lot more difficult.
And you're pretty much starting over. You're on your own.
You have to make new friends, which isn't that hard.
But dorming with people compared to being at home so then you're saving money. That's another thing.
(06:06):
Yeah. And I know you have a job already, right?
You have a couple part-time jobs so you don't have to quit those, right?
No, I can still work there. So that's good.
Yeah.
Gabby, did you do the nursing program?
Yes, I did. And I am a CNA now so it's kind of a nice thing to have, especially when I am going into college.
So then I can still work as a CNA, but also make pretty good money.
(06:31):
So you can keep up with school and be able to afford the classes that I need to and everything.
So it's a good balance to help out with it.
Sure. And how do your parents feel about all this?
I am a first-generation college graduate. My folks had no idea what we were doing.
The FAFSA for us was handwritten. So I filled it out. They signed it and we sent it away.
(06:58):
What's it been like for you?
My parents have been very supportive of it. My mom didn't go to college.
My dad went to college for a few years to become a firefighter. So they've been really supportive with everything.
They've been helping me financially and I appreciate it a lot.
I think the main thing they're worried about is the money for college tuition and how that's going to work.
(07:25):
Or if I want to switch my major halfway through, they're stressed about that and I don't blame them.
How about you?
Pretty much the same thing that she said. Basically, they've been really supportive about it and encouraging me to do everything.
My dad didn't go to college, but I know my mom went to college for two years for nursing and everything.
So it's kind of a nice thing to compare to.
(07:47):
But also they're just worried that especially with the type of field that I'm going to,
just worrying about I'm not going to go through with it or easily just like, okay, whatever, I can't do it.
But otherwise just worrying about coming up with the money, still supporting it for all the classes.
And just worried that maybe I'll just switch or just drop it.
Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's real. I mean, as someone, I still am paying off my undergraduate diploma, right?
(08:14):
So I took a long time to get on feet after college and to start making money where you could start paying for that.
So honest, like real considerations you guys both have.
I think that leads us really right into our next guest.
So thank you guys both for coming on the podcast and being brave. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Yes, thank you.
(08:38):
Joining us now on the podcast is Marwil Santiago.
He is the director of student recruiting and the call center at MATC, Malaki Area Technical College.
Marwil, welcome to the SMY podcast.
Hey, Dan. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really happy to be here and share what we have to offer about at MATC.
(09:00):
Awesome. If if before I get into the questions, tell us a little bit about MATC and what it offers students.
Sure thing. Well, MATC is, you know, it's been in the community for a very long time.
In 2012, we celebrated 100 years.
(09:21):
So we have a very strong foothold within the Milwaukee community.
We're known as the technical college in the in the area where you can really, you know,
just train up and set yourself up for a really good career in a short amount of time.
And we also have a ton of transfer programs that students can take advantage of.
(09:48):
So once they complete their associate degree in the career of their choice,
they can usually take advantage of a really good transfer opportunity that we have set up for our programs.
OK, that leads great into the end of our questions.
What do students and parents need to know when or to think about when they're selecting a college?
(10:10):
Sure. Well, I think, you know, it really starts with a lot of I like to use the word research, you know,
so getting to know yourself, getting to know what are the interests and what career you would like to align yourself with.
Honestly, there are a lot of careers that you can probably kick off right out of high school.
(10:34):
But we see college education as a way to enhance your opportunities.
So, you know, figuring out your specific path and then finding the school that helps you achieve that is is the main goal.
I like to, you know, it's part of my job, but I truly do believe it.
(10:56):
But MATC does have a pathway for just about every career path that you can think of,
starting at really short technical programs that, you know, that can be done in as little as one semester.
Certificates or digital badges, those then lead into our technical diplomas, which then lead into associate degrees.
(11:22):
That's the highest level that we offer at MATC.
But from the associate degree, just about all of our programs do have those transfer opportunities that I mentioned.
So I guess when we when I talk about finding your path, I often can find the path for you through MATC,
(11:45):
even if the goal is, let's say, a Ph.D. at the end of the road, it's definitely possible through us.
Sure. And then do you get students at technical colleges seem to have a very clear destination,
like you will have a certification in X or the technical aspect, like a skill, you're going to pick up a skill.
(12:12):
But what if a student doesn't quite know what they want to do right out of high school?
Yeah, you know, and we have that, you know, a lot of four year colleges offer opportunities for students to sign up as undecided
and, you know, within a certain amount of time and after taking a lot of general courses.
(12:34):
It's expected that the student would then choose a major and focus on that major for, you know, usually the second half of their college career.
So at MATC, we do offer general degrees, Associated Arts or Associated Sciences.
And then we that basically provide the first two years of any four year degree.
(13:03):
And you say you're in the associate degree that doesn't necessarily have a career track,
but it does get you to the four year college of your choice.
So, you know, I guess in some sense, that's a way for some undecided students to start college.
And if they know that the four year degree is the ultimate goal and great, I think, you know,
(13:26):
it's a great place to pick up a few new subjects and gain those really core academic credits, math and English.
And a lot of your sciences can be done here.
And they're just as good, if not better, as the courses that you'll find at our four year partners.
(13:51):
And the only reason I say that is one, I guess two reasons that I'm going to point out right away is the cost.
So our general transfer credits are at just under two hundred dollars per credit.
So a full year of, you know, the transfer degree would cost roughly six thousand dollars of full time studies.
(14:17):
So I think you can do a bit of research and find that throughout the community, you know,
those first two years that any other school will cost considerably a lot more.
Sure. Yeah. A major, a major concern with parents for sure. And and students as we just heard from our two students.
(14:39):
So we did. Yeah, two. That's right. I have to say it's you know, it's our small class sizes.
I remember taking organic chemistry here at the college and our class was less than 20 students led by a professor with a Ph.D.
All the credentials that any other university professor would have.
(15:04):
And those credits transferred to UWM quite well.
And when I connected with some of my peers at UWM and I asked them about their organic chemistry experience,
well, they took theirs and a lecture hall of about 300 students and had mostly a connection with the T.A.
During a smaller discussion and lab breakouts where my professor taught both our lab and our lectures.
(15:29):
Right. Yeah. Fair to consider, right.
That if everyone has to take the class, obviously they're going to fit as many students in that class as they can.
And then, yeah, I hadn't thought of that in a while. But, yeah, those one on one courses are usually pretty big.
Right. The class sizes. So we've learned in our last episode about the A.C.T.
(15:51):
that the way maybe my generation understood how they were used has has really changed.
How has the admission process changed? Because that ties into it a little bit, too.
Sure. How's it work? Well, we've never really we've used A.C.T. in the past.
But in the past, we also had our own entrance exam with the A.C.T.
(16:16):
Placer. And essentially, if you had A.C.T. scores, you would be exempt from the A.C.T.
Placer or more if you did the A.C.T.
Placer, we wouldn't need your A.C.T. scores. We basically used one or the other at this point.
And for a few years now, we have removed any kind of testing as a requirement for admission.
(16:41):
Our advising team has switched over to a whole student, a holistic advising model that looks at everything from high school grades and GPAs,
perhaps even work experience, and they're starting to develop other methods to to play students that would be more
(17:02):
appropriate and indicative of where the students should be placed in terms of what class.
We've also, you know, in the past, A.C.T. Placer would have placed you perhaps in non credit bearing courses
to prep you for academic success.
(17:24):
But we have actually found that that was a barrier for students to achieve success because spending so much time in the classroom not achieving credit could be pretty disheartening.
So our new model has college bearing courses, college credit bearing courses for just about all of our incoming students.
(17:49):
And we build in support for those students who need it.
So instead of keeping them in a limbo state of pre-college coursework,
we put them into the appropriate college course where they're earning credit, but also receiving the support that they need through either mandatory tutoring or
(18:14):
more one on one work with the instructor.
OK.
If you could maybe zoom out a little bit industry wide, is is that a layer that maybe parents didn't realize there were before and what are the other layers?
Sure. Well, right. And A.C.T.s and other tests, you know, they are still being used.
(18:37):
But the trend is it's not as required as it used to be.
So more and more schools are taking on the holistic approach. But if someone is looking into more traditional academic track for college,
it's probably recommended to to look into A.C.T.s and do that traditional prep work to to get a good score.
(19:04):
You know, because it does help with your depending on the college or university that you're applying to.
You know, it just really depends on whether they're required or not.
Sure. We understand not everyone is a good tester.
So that's at least for me, not a good indication as to whether you'll be a good student or not.
(19:25):
Sure. And aside from the A.C.T.s, I mean, so like I personally, when I did it, I had to fill out a I went to a state school in New York
and there was one application for all state schools.
So it's one application fee and that.
But it wasn't online or anything. We had to mail it out to all the schools that we were interested in.
(19:51):
And then there were essays and those other things.
Just generally, what are the requirements? Like usually, what is the track for if just advice for parents?
Should you go visit schools? Should you learn the application process first?
Should you what should what should you know and when should you do it?
(20:12):
Because we talked to some seniors who aren't, you know, still figuring it out.
When in their career should they be looking at college and considering what to do next?
Well, ideally, the college conversation is happening in middle school because we're talking about careers
and really starting to hone in on what some of those interests will be.
(20:36):
Because once you get to high school and you're in ninth grade, if you have a clear idea of where you want to go,
then you can start taking advantage of the right perhaps dual enrollment courses
or joining the right clubs to get you that experience or even getting that part time job.
If you're looking to a culinary arts career, you got to start working in the kitchen.
(21:00):
So might as well start in high school.
If you're looking to get into a health care career, looking for opportunities to become perhaps a CNA
or even an EMT towards your older years in high school.
If you're a CNA, you can actually become one at the age of 16 and that's a requirement to get into our nursing program.
(21:26):
So and beyond that, even if the student is looking into going to a four year track,
when they get to that university, if they have the CNA license, now hopefully they can get a job
perhaps at the local clinic or a hospital while in school instead of nothing against coffee shops.
(21:51):
I love my coffee shop.
But if you can start getting your practical and career experience while you're in college,
that's going to put you ahead of others.
Sure. And one of the students we talked to, Gabby, that's her goal.
She is applying or going to go to a technical college.
She mentioned Gateway, but she also said MATC and that she has her CNA
(22:16):
and she plans to work through while she's doing the next thing.
And then so that's you're kind of planning that out and then application time frames in general.
So right. So, you know, now that we've kind of settled in on perhaps career choice
and the type of experiences the student is looking at,
(22:40):
you want to start really honing in on decisions by your junior year.
That's when we have direct admit opportunities coming your way and opting in
if that's something you want to pursue or at least by the time it's your turn
to start filling out the applications, which usually happens in the fall of your senior year.
(23:05):
You want to fill out that application with a level of confidence that you know what you're signing up for.
It is not uncommon for students to be in a really undecided state at this time of year,
closer to the holidays or even into the spring semester.
As I mentioned earlier, colleges certainly have are aware of that.
(23:29):
So they provide undecided options so students can still apply for college,
perhaps just say I'm undecided as to what career I want to take on.
But at least a college application is in.
And if you get that in, you'll just follow the steps that the college or university is asking you to take after that.
(23:55):
And you want to start looking to scholarships and to your financial aid opportunities.
And I highly recommend that everyone, everyone, everyone complete a FAFSA.
It's a free application for federal student aid.
It doesn't cost you anything but time.
In the last two years, they really simplified the application to make it easier on families to complete.
(24:20):
And even if you believe your family wouldn't be eligible to receive aid, it's still recommended that you do it because one,
you never know until the numbers are crunched and you get the results.
And two, a lot of private scholarships require a financial aid package or FAFSA to be submitted
because oftentimes that's what's used to verify income and other data.
(24:47):
Interesting. OK. I didn't know that part. That's great.
Yeah, I did. I did it for my master's, which I finished a few years ago and it took about 30 minutes, I'd say, tops to fill that out.
I had all the data, though, because it's my income that we're talking about.
And the student might have to go talk to their parents or do some other things.
Well, one of the great features of the updates for the FAFSA, which parents should celebrate
(25:13):
and perhaps parents who helped students in the last few years and now have students starting the process
or younger students starting the process again, they're going to find it to be a lot more simple.
And essentially, everyone does their piece on their own.
The student completes the FAFSA and then a link or the parent has to create their own FSA ID
(25:37):
and eventually submit their data because it's going to be linked to their kids data.
But the applications are technically separate.
OK, great. Thank you for that.
And then the last question I have has to do specifically with, I think, where MATC is placed in the marketplace.
(25:58):
When I went to college, it was recommended that at least I went to liberal arts college and they said,
hey, liberal arts degree is a great place to start.
And when you get into your job, they're going to train you.
And that never came to fruition ever.
But that was the line we got.
But it seems to me now, at least at the high school level, we are career focused
(26:24):
rather than education focused after the idea that job holder employers want to know what you know and what you can do for them.
Is that the correct read on the marketplace right now, what students should be thinking about?
At least from our perspective through the lens of a technical college, yes.
(26:49):
We have employers begging us for new students and we try to graduate them as quickly as possible
because the skills that our students are walking out with are skills that will be used on day one.
I have a perfect example of one of our student ambassadors who worked in our recruitment office,
(27:12):
graduated class of twenty three as a welding technologist, an associate's degree offered at our West Dallas campus.
He got a job right away and immediately was in charge of five other workers who were on the line.
And that young man who was only about 20 years old at the time had the proper training and skills to hit the ground running.
(27:41):
I asked him point blank what kind of training did they provide for you in order to start working?
And he said basically not much more.
We were trained on the same systems, the same equipment.
So I really was able to do the job on day one.
Awesome. Awesome. That's great to hear because I know that when I graduated, I said, OK, now what?
(28:05):
Right. And it took another few years to get a real track in those skills built up and in that trap of everybody wants you to have experience.
But you're applying for your first job without any experience. Right. That's what you're looking for.
Right. I mean, and really think about it.
(28:27):
You know, this is a great way for young people to kick off a career, even if that career, you know, you won't maybe you won't weld for the rest of your life.
But it's going to set you up for a few years.
And perhaps you go into industrial management from that point and you got an MBA.
You know, it's not the end of the road to finish with one of our associate degrees.
(28:49):
In fact, you just it's the beginning. You kick off that career.
It sets you up. And from there, the decisions that you make will often lead to a really good and lifelong career that involves many aspects.
OK. Well, Marwell Santiago, thank you so much for being on the SMA Podcast.
(29:10):
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Go Rockets.
Thank you for having us.
Our next guest is Howard R. Freeman, a financial advisor and author.
His latest book is called Making College Happen, an insightful guide to making savvy financial decisions and cutting college costs.
(29:32):
Howard, welcome to the podcast. It's a pleasure to be here.
So tell us, I gave you a little bit of background about South Milwaukee before we started recording.
What do students and parents need to know about paying for college?
Well, the biggest thing is essentially to set a budget in terms of what you think you can afford.
(30:00):
Many times I tell students and families to set maybe a fixed budget and say, OK, mom and dad can contribute ten thousand dollars, let's say.
And the rest is something that's made up through to the long scholarships or whatever.
So that's really a good way of paying it. So it's no surprises.
(30:28):
The other things are when students get their financial aid awards, they spell out essentially what the college costs are.
And that includes the really the gross cost of college, which is tuition, room, board and other expenses.
(30:49):
And then from that is deducted any scholarships or any type of financial aid.
So the main thing, number one, is to look at the bottom line and see what the net cost is if you're getting an offer.
The second thing is really deciding if that net cost is doable and if it is doable.
(31:17):
Talk about it in terms of, you know, how many loans you want to take, you know, should a parent or a student own the loan.
And and finally, is the college really worth it?
Is it worth it to spend a lot of money for a career that's not going to pay much?
(31:39):
Normally with colleges and when you're looking at colleges and comparing awards, I look at several things.
One, I do comparisons by a spreadsheet to see what the quality of the award is, how much of it is as scholarships, how much of it is work study.
(32:00):
And with that, and one thing that changes share that everybody should know is any award you get can be appealed.
There's a process called professional judgment.
And that means that you can go back to the school and request a review for additional financial aid.
(32:26):
So those are things that can be done. Those are tools.
But I really think the biggest thing is to decide if the career path justifies the costs.
A simple example may help.
Let's say a student wants to become a social worker.
(32:51):
And that particular field doesn't pay that much. Why go to an expensive college when you can get the same degree at a state school?
Or better still, you can start off at a community college and then transfer.
Now, that just shows that why graduate with a bunch of debt if you have a position that's not going to pay you much.
(33:18):
I think I would say, and it's been 20 years since I was in college and more, but that when I approached my parents with this, there was no, I'm the first person to go to college.
There's no concept of what they could afford versus what I could afford. And we just kind of rolled with it.
(33:40):
Do you find that that's what a lot of people experience? Because I know that if I said, putting myself back into my 17-year-old self, if I said, hey, we got to pay for this, can you afford it?
They would say no.
You have to, again, right up front, have a conversation. Students and parents should have an open discussion between what their goal is as far as what college they're interested in and how much the cost will be.
(34:19):
So there's really no sticker shock. It's terrible, not terrible, but a little bit frustrating if a student is accepted into college and they're really happy and the parents say, hey, we can't pay for it because we didn't talk about it.
So the important thing, and I put it in my book, is to have this conversation.
(34:41):
And I put a bunch of questions that the student should ask the parent and the parent should ask the student and reasons why they want to go to college.
Why do they want to go to college? What do they plan to get out of it?
Because I think the biggest challenge is to make decisions from the heart and not the head.
(35:04):
I think you can't, parents should not feel guilty if they can't pay for college. They shouldn't.
And the student should accept that and say, OK, if I want to go to college, let me start off economically because they know I can't burden my parents, especially as they get older.
(35:25):
They have retirement to think of. They may be in a shaky job market.
So parents have to protect themselves while enabling this student to attend the best college they can at the best value and hope when they graduate, they'll make enough money to pay their debt down if there is any.
(35:50):
Has college changed that perspective? You talked about having a career path.
I remember when I attended, it was always the value of a liberal arts education and your job will train you when you get out.
But just having these skills are going to help you.
And I think statistically, if you look at the people who the income of people who have a college degree versus don't is what they use to justify that kind of conversation is calculus different today.
(36:19):
I think what's changed is there's a changing dynamics in terms of. United States in the world.
I think what's happening is.
Students are second second guessing or thinking of college is really worth it.
(36:40):
I think that's a key. Is it really worth it?
The dynamics that are changing are.
College does not provide a guarantee of success.
Success is something that you have to gain personally and make the most of your college education.
(37:02):
What's changing is that the number of people attending college is declining to a certain degree because of covid because of the fact that maybe they need to make a living for us.
Maybe they need to be entrepreneurial if they want and simply it's not a tragedy if they can't afford it because there's a lot of choices and you look at the choices.
(37:29):
What are the choices? You got a trade school. You can study online.
You can go part time. Maybe you could work for a company that that pays for your tuition.
You go into the military.
You can do a lot of different things.
If money is an issue and you can always at any time in your life.
(37:54):
Get a degree.
There's no age limit on how long it takes to get a degree and I know people have helped people that are married and they never got to get their degree or finish it.
So they took part time courses. So they studied online and they succeeded.
So there is a certain amount of pressure.
(38:16):
For children and families to go to college.
But pressure is something self imposed. I use two simple acronyms in my book.
Yes and no.
And what I said is the first thing is you have to kind of get over the fear and the stress of going through this process.
(38:38):
It could be frightful. You don't have to be spooked out by this process.
But yes means you expect success.
So I'm just saying to say yes.
You're you're expecting success and you always have to think positively about what can I do to get an education and for no.
(39:02):
I put new opportunities.
So there's a lot of opportunities, a lot of demand for people that can get degrees or maybe not even get a bachelor's degree in some of the professions such as nursing, such as you know, accounting or computers.
(39:26):
And they're available again through community college, etc.
A lot of students, depending on their income, maybe in total to Pell Grant, if they have low income.
So that helps. And that's something that does not have to be repaid. They may get work study.
(39:48):
So, regardless of income, there are always opportunities and you have to be you have to expect success.
If we could step back for a second, if you could tell me, could you put it in steps?
You know, is step one applying to the colleges and step to figure out how to pay for it or step one saying what's our what's our costs?
(40:11):
Is it really shopping like am I going online and looking at what they're doing?
Let me give you what I think the steps should be.
OK, the first step is relax. That's a first step. Take a deep breath. I tell people, you know, get a coke, get some pizza, whatever.
Relax. The second step is to have a family discussion, to really ask the questions again that have outled in my book, to really get to the to the, you know,
(40:45):
to the bottom line in terms of what the student is interested in and what the parent feels they can pay.
And I think you have that discussion back and forth. And then the other thing that's very important.
And I say, go to the career placement office and find out what majors and careers are worth pursuing,
(41:10):
because that's ultimately after you go through college, you know, what are you going to college for?
What kind of degree? What kind of program is it worth it?
So I think you have to really go through those steps.
And the other thing is you have to do your due diligence and look at colleges. And what do I mean by that?
(41:31):
Look at the statistics. I like to look at what is the acceptance rate.
If the acceptance rates really high, I don't think it's a highly competitive college.
It may not be a bad college. What is the turnover rate?
How many people stay at that college? How much do they give out in scholarships and financial aid?
(41:57):
And how much of the unmet need do they cover? What are some of the programs they offer?
How many graduates get employment through, you know, through the college?
So, OK, the next thing I would do and I've given examples, a very, very detailed college visit checklist.
(42:23):
And many people go to college and I've heard it. Well, what did you think of the college?
Oh, I thought it was nice. Would you like about oh, the kids were nice.
I like it. You know, it's nice. It's in a nice climate.
And no, you've got to really have your questions together and you've got to look at it to do insightful questions.
(42:51):
You know, go to a class, go to a, you know, go to the some of the offices where the majors are.
You know, look at the cafeteria or whatever they call it. Look at the bulletin board. Read the newspaper.
You know, your gut will tell you. Your gut always tells you if this feels right.
(43:16):
And if you have an opportunity to go to the financial aid office, you know, talk to them, find out how much they award.
What is their basis? What can they do to help you? What is the appeal process?
So you're essentially really digging deep rather than a superficial visit.
(43:37):
Then I think, you know, once you apply and complete the financial aid forms of FASO and or the profile,
then you really have to do a thorough analysis, as I said earlier, about what is the net cost of the college.
And then you look at alternatives. Well, I'll give you some.
(44:01):
So maybe this will help people understand. OK.
By completing the FASO form, the student automatically gets a Stafford loan of fifty five hundred.
That's the loan that the student is responsible for. OK.
The parent can get a parent plus loan for which they are responsible.
(44:26):
So if they have good credit, if they have bad credit, then the student would get an additional staffer.
OK. So there are programs where they have installment payment plans.
We can pay so much a month for 10 months. And by doing that, it eases the burden somewhat.
(44:49):
Then you can kind of look, well, loans. Well, there's the federal loans, which are primarily the the Stafford loan and parent plus loan.
And then this was called alternative loans.
Where they come in is based on the parents credit and the parent becomes a co-signer.
(45:12):
So if the student fails to repay the loan, they become a co-signer and the parent may be eligible.
So those are things that will pay for it.
Then you have to kind of look at some of the government and other relief programs that will pay for the loan.
(45:34):
If a student decides to go in certain professions or work in certain areas.
Then I think after that, you have to look at the repayment options.
What are they? And I think, you know, as you look at loans, you also have to have your list of questions.
What could those questions be? What is your interest rate? Is it fixed? A variable?
(45:58):
Is there any relief if I lost my job?
You know, do you do provide some, you know, relief or can I stop paying for a while?
What happens if I die? You know, private loans don't provide provisions when people die.
The parent plus loan does. So you get its insurance and peace of mind versus going to the open market and securing funds.
(46:29):
Then I think going through all the steps, you look at the repayment options on the federal loans because there are multiple repayment options.
Some are, you know, progressive. Some are fixed. Some are deferred. Some are based on employment.
(46:55):
And then you look at ways ultimately what are ways of funding the loan or funding the education?
People can take home equity loan or lines. They can use a 529 plan if they have it.
(47:16):
They can work on their retirement options. I do not recommend that.
And the reason that they don't is, you know, that's the parents lifetime savings. They're going to need it after the student graduates.
And then finally, you know, in the book, I talk about employment and the one thing that's very important that kind of ties it all together is
(47:43):
students sometimes fail to realize that when they do a resume to take the word I out, that's kind of hard to do.
But when you apply for a job, you're selling yourself and skills.
So you have to kind of turn around and say, this is what I could offer. This is how I could solve your problems.
(48:09):
This is how I can save you money. It's not about the eye. It's about to you.
This whole process of college admission, you know, recruiting, it's also buy and sell.
Colleges do go out and they recruit and they they have a certain, you know, what they call enrollment management
(48:38):
that they're going after a certain type of student. They want to do that.
So they're going after you. So they're shopping for students.
And then the student, on the other hand, and their families do the buying.
So what am I going to buy? You know, based upon what they offer.
(49:01):
So it's a whole there's a lot of dynamics. And then along with it, there are other people that are involved beyond somebody like me, who's a financial aid consultant.
There's bankers, there's financial people, because sometimes you want an outside opinion to ensure that the decisions you make are sound or financially sound.
(49:27):
Even if it means bad news for the for the student.
That's the key. And again, keep your statistics always report to one another.
I think students and parents should evaluate the schools separately.
And I think really why why that event? What do you mean evaluate separately?
(49:51):
Well, I think when you I think when you go on a college visit and you have what I call a checklist, then with a bunch of questions, I think the student has a set of questions and the parent has theirs.
For example, the parent may ask about student safety.
(50:12):
They may ask about medical provisions. They may ask about if a student has special circumstances or needs.
The student may ask questions about courses or frats or social life.
And I think if I think if the parent and student evaluates their criteria, maybe one to ten.
(50:35):
And then when you all come together, compare your notes and say, hey, this is a this is a good one or let's move on.
So I think you're getting two perspectives in terms of this is this a candidate for consideration or isn't it.
So I could see that being collaborative, but I could also see it being a source of argument in a family, right, like a parent is a big on the know any you'd mentioned this a little bit before.
(51:07):
But any tips on on building that collaboration before you get into a confrontation?
I think collaboration up in business, you know, worked in businesses for many years and gone through many, many meetings.
I think you argue your point with facts, not feelings, facts, not feelings.
(51:31):
So if you have the facts, if the student can present the facts and say, I want to go to ABC College, you know, they're they offer a lot of financial aid.
I want to go to the exact major that I want.
And probably the net cost of going to this college is ten thousand dollars.
(51:52):
That's a pretty convincing argument.
OK, then the other argument might be the the parent may say, well, I never went to college.
You know, this is crazy.
You've got to listen to one another part of communication is empathetic listening.
You've got to listen to one another.
(52:14):
And what the student wants is the national the same as a parent.
So you have to come to some happy medium because the student.
Has to realize that they may encumber large debt if the parents can provide it and the parents have their humility and pride.
(52:37):
They want to help this student. They love this student.
They want them to get the best.
But it's hard sometimes, but you just have to be honest with another.
It's not always personal. It's factual.
So if you argue with facts and then the other thing is find a place where you're comfortable.
(53:00):
You know, if you go into the living room and the whole family is surrounding you and you've got both sides.
No, you know, go out for lunch, go someplace leisurely, you know, talk about it when you go to college.
But I think listening facts and understanding and empathy that the student, the parent students have for their parents and vice versa.
(53:30):
In the few minutes that we have left, I'm wondering if there is a safe ratio of return to investment or should we be paying attention to the current job market, knowing that the future job market for years might be different?
Because you'd mentioned that that that return, the expected salary versus the debt encumbered is a calculus. But is there a sweet spot where we say reasonably this is a reasonably safe risk to take?
(54:05):
Well, one thing that I recommend and it's available through the US Department of Labor Statistics is a book is called Occupational Outlook Handbook and get it online.
What that shows is statistics and data relative to hundreds, maybe thousands of jobs in terms of the educational requirements, the demand for the position and basically what you need or what level of degrees to get.
(54:41):
And I think that's a really good resource because it's unbiased. It's based on statistics.
There's no one formula, you know, met with thousands of clients. There's no one formula, no one answer that I can give you without knowing the facts.
(55:02):
So when I help people with the faster the profile, more than filling in the forms, I really do a deep analysis of where they stand.
And give them ideas, give them suggestions. And also, I question the student to be honest with me and tell me what they really want.
(55:25):
And sometimes parents cringe because they may say it's not necessarily correct. I want my child to go to state school because cheaper, not necessarily.
So if you went to state school, I'll take I don't know the numbers. Let's say University of Wisconsin.
(55:47):
And it only costs thirty five thousand dollars a year to go there, but they're not giving out heavy scholarships.
So that cost of and again, this is just made up information is twenty two thousand dollars.
Then you apply to, you know, private college. I think Marquette is that in Wisconsin?
(56:17):
Yes, sir. Yeah. So you got Marquette. Marquette's a really good school and they really like the student.
And Marquette costs fifty thousand, but they have some benevolent graduate that wants to give them a scholarship.
So they get out and it's only ten thousand to go to Marquette. You know, people don't realize that.
(56:43):
So the private schools have more money to give out and the net cost may be less than going to state college, community college, much less.
And I do tell people, maybe in conclusion, if money is an issue, go to community college and then transfer and get a really darn good education.
(57:05):
You can take your credits. You could work possibly part time, you know, go to an online program or anything because you don't have to go to college full time.
You can go part time and get your degree. OK. Well, that Howard, our Freeman author of Making College Happen,
(57:27):
the insightful guide to making savvy financial decisions and cutting college costs.
Sir, this is a first for us having an online interview like this. So we really appreciate you taking your time and sharing your knowledge with our parents.
Well, it was my pleasure and I hope whatever I said will will help your audience.
(57:49):
Thank you for all our guests on this important but very long episode. And thank you to you for listening.
This has been the SMI podcast. We will see you in twenty twenty five.
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