June 29, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, Joshua and I discuss a wide-range of topics from trauma healing to free will. I enjoyed exploring the playful and profound edges of somatic work and the concept of choice. In this episode, I especially enjoyed the warmth and insight Joshua brought into a thoughtful dialogue.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Sneaky
Powerful Podcast.
My name is Ali Capurro and I'mso glad you're here.
It's been so long since I'vepublished a podcast and this
particular one was actuallyrecorded quite a while ago.
To be able to publish morepodcasts, hopefully, I made a
(00:24):
choice to skip the editingprocess.
So this is Sneaky Powerful Raw.
No intro music, unless I figurethat out later, or polished
content, just meaningfulconversations.
So today I'm really excited toshare the conversation with Dr.
Joshua Silve.
(00:46):
Joshua is someone who makes mefeel more hopeful about the
world.
He's a faculty member with SEI,and he has a book coming out in
November.
Joshua is also a creative,deeply thoughtful human who's
using his intellect and light tosupport trauma healing in ways
that reach far and wide.
(01:08):
I'm really happy to share thisconversation and staying true to
the raw nature of this episode,we jump right in with laughter,
my favorite.
So let's get into it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
That's great.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
It is great.
But yeah, so we were going totalk about free will a little
bit.
So I had kind of told myselfthat I would do a little more
research on free will because Ithought, do I not know?
What do I know about free will?
But as free will would have it,I didn't do or not.
I don't know.
I didn't do any research.
So I'm like, well, what do youthink about free will?
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
Right, right.
You didn't do any research.
And what does that say aboutyou?
Why weren't you able to mustermore discipline to complete this
task that you had set out foryourself?
SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
And, you know, do we hold you accountable for that?
You know, do we say, you know,this is a moral failing of some
kind?
Yes.
Or do we acknowledge or...
Or do we acknowledge thataccording to the laws of nature,
(02:26):
everything arises out of priorcauses and conditions.
And so to presume that you couldhave chosen otherwise is perhaps
illusory.
And I think of all of this as,you know, super interesting and
(02:51):
potentially super relevant tothis work that we do, but it
still is considered by most tobe a kind of intellectual
sideline.
And I'm not surprised to hearyou say and to hear others say,
I don't really know much aboutthis.
It's not exactly something we'reencouraged to reflect on or
(03:13):
consider.
For me, it wasn't until I don'tknow, maybe 10 years ago or
something, all of a sudden Irealized that I had just never
really considered this thing.
Like, do we have consciousvoluntary will over our lives?
And I was surprised to realizethat it had just really never
(03:37):
come across the screen of myawareness, you know, that I
hadn't considered it.
And then, you know, reallybecame fascinated with it,
devoured a ton of literature Andit has since come to really
influence the way that I thinkabout things.
But I don't get to talk about itas often as I'd like, you know,
(03:58):
because when you're teaching theSE professional training, the
somatic experiencingprofessional training, which is
where you and I have firstcrossed paths, you know, it's...
It's potentially not what peopleare paying to hear about.
SPEAKER_02 (04:15):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
I try to inhibit those impulses I have to sort of
explore this with people.
SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
Okay.
I am curious.
Can we use like a reallysimplified example of maybe
something you've encounteredwhere free will has, where
you've noticed it, nothingdramatic, but so for our
listeners to kind of get aunderstanding of what you mean
when you're talking about freewill without the philosophical
(04:53):
textbooks that you've readthrough.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Yeah.
Well, for sure.
You know, I mean, it's, it's,Everywhere.
It's in everything.
It touches, you know, reallyanything that means anything to
us, I think, because we'retending to walk around day to
day, all day, every day,
SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
with
SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
this sense of authorship over our actions.
SPEAKER_02 (05:16):
Right.
And I am wondering, even as yousay that, there's a little bit
of possessiveness, like,absolutely, I author my own
life.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
Exactly.
Exactly.
There tends to be a little bitof a reaction.
for many of us when we reallydeeply consider the possibility
that my choices, so to speak,are in a way, as we were saying
in the beginning, choiceless.
(05:44):
That what I elect to say and dois arising out of prior causes
and conditions and is likelyreducible to my genetic
inheritance combined with theenvironments that have shaped
(06:07):
the expression of thosegenetics.
So I have this sense of like,and of course, we can't touch on
this without considering howmany of us might understand
ourselves to not be something ofthe body you know, that there's
(06:31):
a, there's an immaterial soulthat inhabits, you know, the
body.
I
SPEAKER_02 (06:37):
like the idea of separating out.
Yeah.
Those.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Early on.
SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
Right.
You know, so sometimes,sometimes there's kind of a
sense of like, well, sure, youknow, there's my genetics and my
environment and that doesprovide some kind of influence,
but then there's the real methat's somewhere in there and
maybe is made up of spiritmatter.
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:59):
But the thing that we might say is that even if
that's true, even if we are asoul, did we choose our soul?
Did we...
SPEAKER_02 (07:13):
Dang that question.
That's a big one.
That is shaking me to my core.
SPEAKER_01 (07:19):
I thought I knew that one.
Did we come into the world andsomehow there's some stuff that
is us that stands apart fromthese different layers of
experience.
And we looked and said, well,there's my soul and I don't
really like it.
And so I'm going to make adifferent choice.
(07:41):
I mean, wherever you look, thenotion that there's some me that
is somehow standing apart andsaying, yay or nay is is a
little is a little hard to getbehind uh and so you know of
(08:03):
course we could talk about allthe like neuroscience and
philosophy and all that stuff umbut that's that's the basic
picture and you know i i justreally think it's uh it's
relevant to any project of ofhealing you know that that we
really start to question howmuch authorship do we actually
(08:24):
have over the choices that wemake?
I
SPEAKER_02 (08:29):
don't think this is exactly what you mean.
Maybe, maybe it touches on it,but when I, as I have been at
least thinking about it, even ifI didn't do much research about
free will, I was thinking thatif I, if I really felt like I
had a free will and even thoughI said I got defensive or angry
up in arms about me, I, Notbeing the author of my own life.
(08:54):
There's also an awareness that Iwould have chose things.
I would have done things a lotdifferently if I had a little
more free will.
Yes, 100%
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
yes.
Of course.
There's so many times, I think,in this life for many of us that
we find ourselves saying ordoing things that we had
expressly forbidden ourselves tosay or do.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Okay.
Now I'm feeling the relief.
I'm actually like, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Right.
So what a lot of us tend to wantto do is...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And about the things of which weare ashamed, that was something
else.
That was my conditioning.
(09:54):
That was, you know, my momwasn't nice to me.
I
SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
was like, it's the thing, like when my kid's good.
Oh, that's my kid.
And then when they're not, theyhave their own free will.
I have nothing to do
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
with that.
That's the other parent'sinfluence.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
right.
That's right.
That's their dad's side.
Right.
Actually, in a serious wayoften, which is funny.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
No, for sure.
For sure.
I mean, that's part of what canbe challenging about children is
that they are going to manifestsome of the same attributes that
drive you nuts about their otherdonor, so to
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
speak.
Button pushers.
They know how.
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (10:46):
It's also like when you said genetics, oh man, yeah,
I was thinking about justancestors in general and that
whole, I know that's a bigtopic, but there's a little bit
of anger thinking about theinfluence that perhaps my
ancestors have on my lack offree will.
(11:07):
Like to be real, like a littlebit of like, you motherfuckers,
like you should have done thisgenerations ago.
Why am I doing it now?
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (11:18):
Yeah.
Right, right.
I'm going to sit with that more.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
Right.
Being the inheritor ofgenerations of unprocessed,
unworked throughintergenerational trauma is part
of that inheritance thatconditions us.
our lives, you know, so the, uh,and, and it could not be
(11:43):
otherwise.
I don't think, you know, thatthose are, those are prior
causes and conditions that willconstrain what's possible for
us.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
Right.
I
SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
was talking to my kid last night.
Uh, she was, I mentioned, um,that I was watching, I've been
watching this documentary.
Gosh, hopefully this isn't goingto be, um, controversial.
I've been watching thisdocumentary about Donald Trump
and really curious about hislife, his upbringing, kind of
(12:16):
what made him who he is.
And hopefully without steppingin it, what my daughter said was
like, well, he must have hadreally his parents must have
been, you know, not good.
(12:40):
Really kind of coming down onthe side of like nurture, you
know, rather than like, youknow, a sort of nature nurture
thing.
And, you know, hopefully I cansay this without being
controversial, you know, it'sall in, you know, what he says,
how he presents himself, youknow, that like he is in this to
(13:02):
win, and understands winning asthe amassing of resources.
And so we started to have thisreally interesting conversation,
you know, where I said, well, Iguess, kiddo, I can't say, you
know, how much of this is owingto, you know, his parentage, you
know, because maybe geneticsalso play a role.
(13:24):
And she was like, I just can'tbelieve that.
I mean, he once was just alittle baby and that little
baby, you know, couldn't havejust been there, you know, with
this kind of, you know, thesetendencies, right?
But then we started to kind of,you know, unpack it a little
bit.
Sorry, hopefully this is goingto be relevant to our point.
(13:45):
Started to unpack it a littlebit.
And I was like, well, you know,if it's true that there is some
genetic aspect to this, youknow, maybe that has been
playing out, you know, throughthe generations.
And so, you know, there wassome...
(14:07):
some selection for certaincharacteristics.
And the thing we know abouthuman ancestors is that they
were, in our deep time,ancestors hunter-gatherer
groups, the archeological andanthropological evidence
suggests that they were fiercelyegalitarian, which is to say
(14:30):
everybody was equal and theywere fierce about protecting
that state of affairs.
So they would expel people ifthey tried to usurp the autonomy
of other people.
SPEAKER_02 (14:41):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
And in those environments, obviously, the
genetics that would be selectedfor would be ability to
cooperate, respect for otherpeople, putting the needs of the
group ahead of your own.
Those kind of characteristicswould be celebrated by these
groups.
And those people would beprobably winning more partners
(15:06):
and sending their DNA downthrough the generations.
if people were exiled when theyshowed tendencies towards
selfish or even sociopathicbehavior, then their genetics
would have died out as they wereoff in the woods by themselves,
unable to find mates.
(15:27):
So, but then I was, I guess itbecame a little, it's probably
hard being my child becauseeverything becomes some, you
know, neuroscientific uh youknow lesson or whatever but i
was like but then let's thinkabout you know the world that we
live in today in a capitalisteconomy what gets selected for
(15:49):
i.e what wins you more resourcesand potentially access to to
mates and you know the abilityto send your genetics down
through the generations isselfishness yeah is uh you know
sociopathy And so in that sense,it could be that we're now
finding ourselves in anenvironment that is not shaped
(16:11):
towards our basic biology and inwhich the genetic signature of
selfishness is what is gettingreinforced and selected for.
So In that sense, we're kind ofseeing this interesting shift, I
think, in our world, where a lotof us are scratching our heads,
(16:32):
just being like, what happened?
What's going on with the humanspecies?
And it could not have to do withpeople being bad actors who
could choose otherwise if theyso desired, but actually people
According to the dictates ofprior causes and conditions like
(16:54):
their genetics and like theenvironments that have, that
have shaped their actions.
SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
It, it brought my, it brought me to a real serious
level.
Cause it felt like, Oh, that tome speaks to so much of the
sadness that I'm maybe, even ifI talk, speak anecdotally, like
in my practice or in my patientsor clients and just this, this,
the selfishness that doesn'tcreate happiness maybe creates
(17:24):
winning, but not yeah.
Happiness.
And actually, first of all, yourdaughter, that's so insightful,
even though she has to be yourdaughter and you're the
neuroscience and I'm sure it'snot terribly hard, but yeah,
that's so cool that she picks upon that and has awareness of
that.
(17:44):
I love hearing that.
But it reminds me of in 2016, Idon't know if you'll remember
this, but when Peter spoke,Peter Levine spoke in Portland.
I remember it was the first timeI met you.
I didn't really meet you, butthe first time I talked to you,
because he was doing like alittle, maybe a two-day workshop
(18:06):
at the Hilton, somethingdowntown in Portland.
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Oh, yeah, for Pussy or something like that.
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
Yeah, it must have been.
I honestly can't remember.
But...
And it was election year, and hehad photos of Donald Trump and
sort of was, without being toocontroversial, going into...
I remember specifically himtalking about the way his mouth,
(18:33):
how he held his mouth and thissort of attachment reaching.
Do you remember that at all?
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
Vaguely.
SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
Yeah, but I just remember being fascinated.
Well, because he can read bodylanguage or...
I don't know if read's the rightword, but yeah.
Anyway, it's really aninteresting thing to think
about.
And I like thinking about him asa little infant or a little baby
because that brings so muchcompassion to my heart.
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:59):
No matter what is happening politically.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
Isn't it nice to be able to access that, that sense
of compassion?
And for whatever it's worth, ifI'm still allowed to bring this
back around to free will, one ofthe things that I love about
about integrating thisunderstanding is that it does
allow me to have a lot morecompassion
SPEAKER_02 (19:24):
because
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
I'm no longer moving through the world, judging
people and saying that person isjust a bad person who they must
want to do this.
Like when they cut me off on thefreeway, they must want, They
must have been in the lane andsaid to themselves, I could just
stay in this lane and not almostkill that other driver and his
(19:48):
children.
SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
But
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
I just want to get over, and I don't care.
I don't care.
They can suffer.
And did all of that as thisdeliberative action that they
were utterly and completely incontrol over.
That kind of stuff makes me mad.
(20:11):
And I get real, real mad whenthings like that happen.
Again, compassion for thekiddos.
They have to hear me cursing andwhatever, having some big
reaction to whatever.
But if I can remember that thatindividual no more chose...
(20:35):
to do that thing, then I choseto yell some expletive at them
that they're never gonna hear.
And we're all moving throughthis world, acting according to
things that we didn't choose.
(20:55):
And so I can start to let go ofthat sense of like, oh, this is
a bad person.
And they're, they're essentiallylike me, but they're just
choosing to do bad stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (21:08):
Right.
Right.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
They're not like me.
You know, they have not enjoyedthe luck that I have enjoyed to
arrive at this moment in my lifewith the, with this amount of
free attention and interest incertain kinds of, you know,
ethical behaviors.
You know, it's like, like I wasthinking, um, As I was driving
(21:33):
around today thinking about, Iwonder what we're gonna talk
about, I was reflecting on this.
I, as a person, have movedthrough this world sitting with
spiritual teachers, sitting withtherapy teachers.
I've been to all kinds ofworkshops and retreats and all
this.
And some number of thoseteachers, when I would get close
(21:55):
enough to them, I would realizelike, ooh, this person is a
little, hmm.
you know, like there's a littlebit of like, you know, some kind
of malignant narcissism going onhere and I would get burned and,
and be really resentful.
And, and now I'm a teacher and Irealized like, I've been moving
through the world kind of withthis, like, like I'm not like
(22:19):
them, you know, this like senseof superiority that I'm like,
yeah, I'm not making thosechoices.
Like I'm not, you know,exploiting people and seeing
people as pawns on a chessboardto aggrandize myself or create
(22:40):
more resources for me.
And I've been really kind ofgetting off on that.
And all of a sudden, the wholehouse of cards just came down.
And I was like, I'm just lucky.
I'm just lucky for whateverreason.
I did not come into the worldwith the genetics or
environmental cues that createdin me that particular set of
(23:07):
ethical predispositions.
I have the ones that I have andI'm incredibly grateful because
I think that I'm probably at theend of the day, living a better
life, feeling freer insidemyself, like sleeping, you know,
whatever, sleeping better,however, you know, whatever
metaphor we want to use.
And, and I'm really glad aboutthat, but I should not, I should
(23:30):
not sit there thinking thatlike, there's something superior
about me.
Like, this is just, you know,this is just dumb, dumb luck in
a sense that I didn't choose andI didn't earn.
I didn't earn it.
You know, it's just whathappened.
So anyways, I do think it'suseful to be able to hold some
(23:54):
of these perspectives because itsoftens us, I think, in a way
that's probably reallyimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (24:01):
I...
I value that a lot.
It's taken me back to when Ithink I was a senior in high
school and I was in psychology,a psychology class, and we were
talking about serial killers.
And I had, this is how Iwrangled in my very first
(24:24):
serious boyfriend.
I
SPEAKER_00 (24:29):
love this story already.
SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
It's totally true, which is so funny.
But anyway, so we were talkingabout specifically Jeffrey
Dahmer and the class was, and Ithink I raised my hand and said
something like, kind ofunderstanding the, I don't know,
thin line between me and JeffreyDahmer, which was probably
(24:56):
frightening to many of my class,my peers, but there was one guy
who got it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
Yeah.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (25:04):
right.
Exactly.
He's like, that's my girl.
But yeah, basically like,haven't you ever felt crazy
before was what I said, my 17year old self said, and that was
prior to me having panic attacksand really going on this journey
of understanding, I don't, notmental health, mental unhealth,
but I've been watching not adocumentary, but a made up, a
(25:29):
fictional show, but called, Ithink it's Mindhunters, but it's
about like the beginning of theFBI.
I think the serial killer sortof unit of the FBI, I think,
hopefully I'm saying thatcorrectly.
UNKNOWN (25:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:47):
Can you hear the dirt bikes in the background?
I think, okay, good.
SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
I heard something.
I wasn't sure.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
And I'm really holding compassion that they are
not choosing to do
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
that, right?
That's right.
Their attraction to that is notsomething that they selected.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
No, it's genetic.
Anyway, so, but yeah, thinkingabout and watching these films,
fake interviews, but I'massuming they're based on some
sort of reality or hopefully, Idon't know, maybe I'll research
it more.
Probably not.
Where they are talking about,but I guess where I'm trying to
(26:33):
go with this is just the idealike, I don't think they would
have chosen that if they couldhave, is my feeling and my
guess.
And What an awful life and it'shard, but to muster some
(26:53):
compassion toward that scenario.
But that is a way bigger can ofworms.
That's what I'm talking about.
Well,
SPEAKER_01 (27:04):
for sure.
I mean, but we can even lookthere, like your ability to hold
compassion for that situation.
is itself choiceless.
UNKNOWN (27:15):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Right.
Like there's other people inthis world, maybe the family
members of Jeffrey Dahmer'svictims who will never be able
to, for a moment, feelcompassion for him.
SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Even someone I might be watching the show with might
have an absolutely differentexperience.
And you're right.
It does not feel like a choice.
I don't know why I'm made thisway, but I have been since I was
very little.
And I remember thatspecifically.
UNKNOWN (27:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
Yeah, I think a capacity for empathy might be
one of those things that isshaped by genetic factors and
then whether our environmentprepares us for that.
Like if we're not shown empathy,we may have a deficiency in our
(28:06):
capacity to empathize withothers.
UNKNOWN (28:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
Yeah.
It's pretty, it's prettyfascinating, which is why I love
my work, my line of work.
Okay.
So I know I'm being careful oftime and we have about 12
minutes and I want to make sure.
So I want to make sure to
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
kind of just, just, you know, I have till 515.
So are
SPEAKER_02 (28:28):
you sure?
Yeah.
Okay.
I like my me questioning yourlife.
Are you sure?
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
Yeah, no positive.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
Okay, good.
Cause I think this one might bea little bit longer and I'm sure
free will will come into it.
I'm not sure how though.
Actually, let me first say, sosometimes this happens where
something will come into thefield.
Like, so, so, you know, you knewyou had this interview and I'll
start to like, like, like Idreamt about our interview or
(28:56):
our interaction last night.
And I, I, dreamt that we weretalking about the Feldenkrais
method.
So I'm like, Oh, should I bringthat up?
I don't know, but I'm just goingto hold that over here.
Cause that was my dream.
But what I really want to talkabout is I want to have this
(29:17):
really, I feel lucky to havethis moment to engage in this,
what I emailed you about acouple, a year, maybe a year
ago.
about this spiritual experience.
I was lucky enough toparticipate in a demo and you
were the practicer, the facultytherapist.
(29:39):
And I'm comfortable talkingabout this part of it for sure.
And it was a very impactful demosession.
And there was a point toward theend where I looked at you, but I
It was so surreal, psychedelicalmost, where I could see, first
(30:04):
of all, I felt really safe.
And I want to kind of emphasizethat.
I felt really physically safe,emotionally safe in the setting
we were in, being there.
It was just a really safeexperience.
And I looked at you and it waslike I'm trying to describe
(30:24):
something like Psychedelic isreally difficult, as I'm sure
you know.
But it was as if through youreyes, I could see you for sure.
It wasn't like you went away.
But it was also as if I couldsee, maybe it was more in my
mental channel, but akaleidoscope of, so it was like
(30:44):
a tunnel of, like, honestly, itwas like lifetimes in universes.
UNKNOWN (30:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:54):
And the only reason I know that is because of the
way that trying to put myselfback there a little bit.
But I guess what I want toreally ask about is just the
spiritual piece of this traumahealing, healing in general.
(31:16):
You can throw free will inthere.
But it was for sure a spiritualmoment.
of connected to healing trauma.
And I, and I think is that youmight have Intel, but I think
that's what Peter Levine's newbook is going to cover.
Maybe spirituality and trauma.
SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
Is it, do you mean the memoir or something else?
I
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
think the memoir that's out and I think it's
April.
I think I saw you can pre-orderit.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Okay.
Yeah.
Not that we have to
SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
talk about that at all, but.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yeah.
I don't have Intel.
I haven't, uh, I haven't readit.
Um, and I think it's the storyof his life and he, uh, you
know, he's had some experiencesthat I think he's going to be
sharing about, you know, in thatbook that are, uh, that involve
(32:16):
altered states of consciousness,like the one that you're
describing here.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
And
SPEAKER_01 (32:23):
it's funny how we have those experiences and we
apply this term psychedelic tothem.
SPEAKER_02 (32:28):
And
SPEAKER_01 (32:29):
that might confuse people because they're going to
be thinking, oh, psychedelicsubstances.
SPEAKER_02 (32:34):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (32:36):
But experiences of what we might call expanded
states of consciousness ornon-normative states of
consciousness, those areavailable to us in lots of
different contexts.
People on meditation retreatwill have things like this begin
to unfold.
People experiencing hypnosiswill start to have their
(33:01):
perceptual faculties shifted.
all kinds of different contextswhere folks will have
experiences that kind of openthem up in different ways.
And what you're describingsounds like one of those where
somehow in that moment, yoursystem was able to access
(33:25):
another layer, if you will, anawareness that were maybe not
normally able to access.
Because imagine if you hadaccess to that all the time, if
every moment of every day youwere walking around, seeing the
(33:48):
tunnel, feeling the lifetimes.
It would be very distracting.
How are you going to get by?
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
Take care of the kids and hate the dirt bike
guys.
SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
Exactly.
Yeah, no.
It would be like the mundanewould be, I would not do it.
It would be like brush my teeth.
No, why?
Look at this.
SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
That's right.
That's right.
So, you know, I do think thatthe universe has in a way
conspired to open those doorwaysto us only at times.
And, you know, it's a little bitunpredictable what provokes
those doors.
those openings.
(34:31):
I mean, with the psychedelicdrugs, it's not, you know,
because now, you know, sincethose, those medicines got
synthesized, you know, in the,you know, in the last decade,
you know, now, you know, you canjust put some, you know,
molecule in your body and you'regoing to have, you know,
recourse to, to that moreexpansive awareness.
(34:55):
But other people, you know, willdescribe this interesting thing
where, Some folks might meditatefor decades and never have one
of those experiences.
Some people sit down on thecushion and a couple hours later
have one of those experiences.
(35:15):
And again, yeah, you were sayingthis might touch on it.
Again, this might be areflection of genes and
environment, that some peoplecome into the world with a
psyche that is more prepared toaccess expanded states.
Or in the family that I grew upin, it was encouraged to look up
(35:45):
at the clouds and dream and thatthe people were open to when I
would start to spontaneouslytalk about God or something.
And other families, you know,maybe not so much.
Maybe that wouldn't bereinforced.
And so I would end up, you know,with more or less of a sense of
(36:08):
access to that.
So, you know, for you, that wasthere then.
I'm imagining that you'veprobably had some other kinds of
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
experiences like that in your life.
SPEAKER_02 (36:27):
Sorry for sort of an abrupt end, but I hope you
enjoyed my conversation with Dr.
Joshua Silvey.
And thanks for listening totoday's episode of Sneaky
Powerful.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Sneaky
Powerful Podcast.
My name is Ali Capurro and I'mso glad you're here.
It's been so long since I'vepublished a podcast and this
particular one was actuallyrecorded quite a while ago.
To be able to publish morepodcasts, hopefully, I made a
(00:24):
choice to skip the editingprocess.
So this is Sneaky Powerful Raw.
No intro music, unless I figurethat out later, or polished
content, just meaningfulconversations.
So today I'm really excited toshare the conversation with Dr.
Joshua Silve.
(00:46):
Joshua is someone who makes mefeel more hopeful about the
world.
He's a faculty member with SEI,and he has a book coming out in
November.
Joshua is also a creative,deeply thoughtful human who's
using his intellect and light tosupport trauma healing in ways
that reach far and wide.
(01:08):
I'm really happy to share thisconversation and staying true to
the raw nature of this episode,we jump right in with laughter,
my favorite.
So let's get into it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
That's great.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
It is great.
But yeah, so we were going totalk about free will a little
bit.
So I had kind of told myselfthat I would do a little more
research on free will because Ithought, do I not know?
What do I know about free will?
But as free will would have it,I didn't do or not.
I don't know.
I didn't do any research.
So I'm like, well, what do youthink about free will?
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
Right, right.
You didn't do any research.
And what does that say aboutyou?
Why weren't you able to mustermore discipline to complete this
task that you had set out foryourself?
SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
And, you know, do we hold you accountable for that?
You know, do we say, you know,this is a moral failing of some
kind?
Yes.
Or do we acknowledge or...
Or do we acknowledge thataccording to the laws of nature,
(02:26):
everything arises out of priorcauses and conditions.
And so to presume that you couldhave chosen otherwise is perhaps
illusory.
And I think of all of this as,you know, super interesting and
(02:51):
potentially super relevant tothis work that we do, but it
still is considered by most tobe a kind of intellectual
sideline.
And I'm not surprised to hearyou say and to hear others say,
I don't really know much aboutthis.
It's not exactly something we'reencouraged to reflect on or
(03:13):
consider.
For me, it wasn't until I don'tknow, maybe 10 years ago or
something, all of a sudden Irealized that I had just never
really considered this thing.
Like, do we have consciousvoluntary will over our lives?
And I was surprised to realizethat it had just really never
(03:37):
come across the screen of myawareness, you know, that I
hadn't considered it.
And then, you know, reallybecame fascinated with it,
devoured a ton of literature Andit has since come to really
influence the way that I thinkabout things.
But I don't get to talk about itas often as I'd like, you know,
(03:58):
because when you're teaching theSE professional training, the
somatic experiencingprofessional training, which is
where you and I have firstcrossed paths, you know, it's...
It's potentially not what peopleare paying to hear about.
SPEAKER_02 (04:15):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
I try to inhibit those impulses I have to sort of
explore this with people.
SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
Okay.
I am curious.
Can we use like a reallysimplified example of maybe
something you've encounteredwhere free will has, where
you've noticed it, nothingdramatic, but so for our
listeners to kind of get aunderstanding of what you mean
when you're talking about freewill without the philosophical
(04:53):
textbooks that you've readthrough.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Yeah.
Well, for sure.
You know, I mean, it's, it's,Everywhere.
It's in everything.
It touches, you know, reallyanything that means anything to
us, I think, because we'retending to walk around day to
day, all day, every day,
SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
with
SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
this sense of authorship over our actions.
SPEAKER_02 (05:16):
Right.
And I am wondering, even as yousay that, there's a little bit
of possessiveness, like,absolutely, I author my own
life.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
Exactly.
Exactly.
There tends to be a little bitof a reaction.
for many of us when we reallydeeply consider the possibility
that my choices, so to speak,are in a way, as we were saying
in the beginning, choiceless.
(05:44):
That what I elect to say and dois arising out of prior causes
and conditions and is likelyreducible to my genetic
inheritance combined with theenvironments that have shaped
(06:07):
the expression of thosegenetics.
So I have this sense of like,and of course, we can't touch on
this without considering howmany of us might understand
ourselves to not be something ofthe body you know, that there's
(06:31):
a, there's an immaterial soulthat inhabits, you know, the
body.
I
SPEAKER_02 (06:37):
like the idea of separating out.
Yeah.
Those.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Early on.
SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
Right.
You know, so sometimes,sometimes there's kind of a
sense of like, well, sure, youknow, there's my genetics and my
environment and that doesprovide some kind of influence,
but then there's the real methat's somewhere in there and
maybe is made up of spiritmatter.
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:59):
But the thing that we might say is that even if
that's true, even if we are asoul, did we choose our soul?
Did we...
SPEAKER_02 (07:13):
Dang that question.
That's a big one.
That is shaking me to my core.
SPEAKER_01 (07:19):
I thought I knew that one.
Did we come into the world andsomehow there's some stuff that
is us that stands apart fromthese different layers of
experience.
And we looked and said, well,there's my soul and I don't
really like it.
And so I'm going to make adifferent choice.
(07:41):
I mean, wherever you look, thenotion that there's some me that
is somehow standing apart andsaying, yay or nay is is a
little is a little hard to getbehind uh and so you know of
(08:03):
course we could talk about allthe like neuroscience and
philosophy and all that stuff umbut that's that's the basic
picture and you know i i justreally think it's uh it's
relevant to any project of ofhealing you know that that we
really start to question howmuch authorship do we actually
(08:24):
have over the choices that wemake?
I
SPEAKER_02 (08:29):
don't think this is exactly what you mean.
Maybe, maybe it touches on it,but when I, as I have been at
least thinking about it, even ifI didn't do much research about
free will, I was thinking thatif I, if I really felt like I
had a free will and even thoughI said I got defensive or angry
up in arms about me, I, Notbeing the author of my own life.
(08:54):
There's also an awareness that Iwould have chose things.
I would have done things a lotdifferently if I had a little
more free will.
Yes, 100%
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
yes.
Of course.
There's so many times, I think,in this life for many of us that
we find ourselves saying ordoing things that we had
expressly forbidden ourselves tosay or do.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Okay.
Now I'm feeling the relief.
I'm actually like, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Right.
So what a lot of us tend to wantto do is...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And about the things of which weare ashamed, that was something
else.
That was my conditioning.
(09:54):
That was, you know, my momwasn't nice to me.
I
SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
was like, it's the thing, like when my kid's good.
Oh, that's my kid.
And then when they're not, theyhave their own free will.
I have nothing to do
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
with that.
That's the other parent'sinfluence.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
right.
That's right.
That's their dad's side.
Right.
Actually, in a serious wayoften, which is funny.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
No, for sure.
For sure.
I mean, that's part of what canbe challenging about children is
that they are going to manifestsome of the same attributes that
drive you nuts about their otherdonor, so to
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
speak.
Button pushers.
They know how.
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (10:46):
It's also like when you said genetics, oh man, yeah,
I was thinking about justancestors in general and that
whole, I know that's a bigtopic, but there's a little bit
of anger thinking about theinfluence that perhaps my
ancestors have on my lack offree will.
(11:07):
Like to be real, like a littlebit of like, you motherfuckers,
like you should have done thisgenerations ago.
Why am I doing it now?
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (11:18):
Yeah.
Right, right.
I'm going to sit with that more.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
Right.
Being the inheritor ofgenerations of unprocessed,
unworked throughintergenerational trauma is part
of that inheritance thatconditions us.
our lives, you know, so the, uh,and, and it could not be
(11:43):
otherwise.
I don't think, you know, thatthose are, those are prior
causes and conditions that willconstrain what's possible for
us.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
Right.
I
SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
was talking to my kid last night.
Uh, she was, I mentioned, um,that I was watching, I've been
watching this documentary.
Gosh, hopefully this isn't goingto be, um, controversial.
I've been watching thisdocumentary about Donald Trump
and really curious about hislife, his upbringing, kind of
(12:16):
what made him who he is.
And hopefully without steppingin it, what my daughter said was
like, well, he must have hadreally his parents must have
been, you know, not good.
(12:40):
Really kind of coming down onthe side of like nurture, you
know, rather than like, youknow, a sort of nature nurture
thing.
And, you know, hopefully I cansay this without being
controversial, you know, it'sall in, you know, what he says,
how he presents himself, youknow, that like he is in this to
(13:02):
win, and understands winning asthe amassing of resources.
And so we started to have thisreally interesting conversation,
you know, where I said, well, Iguess, kiddo, I can't say, you
know, how much of this is owingto, you know, his parentage, you
know, because maybe geneticsalso play a role.
(13:24):
And she was like, I just can'tbelieve that.
I mean, he once was just alittle baby and that little
baby, you know, couldn't havejust been there, you know, with
this kind of, you know, thesetendencies, right?
But then we started to kind of,you know, unpack it a little
bit.
Sorry, hopefully this is goingto be relevant to our point.
(13:45):
Started to unpack it a littlebit.
And I was like, well, you know,if it's true that there is some
genetic aspect to this, youknow, maybe that has been
playing out, you know, throughthe generations.
And so, you know, there wassome...
(14:07):
some selection for certaincharacteristics.
And the thing we know abouthuman ancestors is that they
were, in our deep time,ancestors hunter-gatherer
groups, the archeological andanthropological evidence
suggests that they were fiercelyegalitarian, which is to say
(14:30):
everybody was equal and theywere fierce about protecting
that state of affairs.
So they would expel people ifthey tried to usurp the autonomy
of other people.
SPEAKER_02 (14:41):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
And in those environments, obviously, the
genetics that would be selectedfor would be ability to
cooperate, respect for otherpeople, putting the needs of the
group ahead of your own.
Those kind of characteristicswould be celebrated by these
groups.
And those people would beprobably winning more partners
(15:06):
and sending their DNA downthrough the generations.
if people were exiled when theyshowed tendencies towards
selfish or even sociopathicbehavior, then their genetics
would have died out as they wereoff in the woods by themselves,
unable to find mates.
(15:27):
So, but then I was, I guess itbecame a little, it's probably
hard being my child becauseeverything becomes some, you
know, neuroscientific uh youknow lesson or whatever but i
was like but then let's thinkabout you know the world that we
live in today in a capitalisteconomy what gets selected for
(15:49):
i.e what wins you more resourcesand potentially access to to
mates and you know the abilityto send your genetics down
through the generations isselfishness yeah is uh you know
sociopathy And so in that sense,it could be that we're now
finding ourselves in anenvironment that is not shaped
(16:11):
towards our basic biology and inwhich the genetic signature of
selfishness is what is gettingreinforced and selected for.
So In that sense, we're kind ofseeing this interesting shift, I
think, in our world, where a lotof us are scratching our heads,
(16:32):
just being like, what happened?
What's going on with the humanspecies?
And it could not have to do withpeople being bad actors who
could choose otherwise if theyso desired, but actually people
According to the dictates ofprior causes and conditions like
(16:54):
their genetics and like theenvironments that have, that
have shaped their actions.
SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
It, it brought my, it brought me to a real serious
level.
Cause it felt like, Oh, that tome speaks to so much of the
sadness that I'm maybe, even ifI talk, speak anecdotally, like
in my practice or in my patientsor clients and just this, this,
the selfishness that doesn'tcreate happiness maybe creates
(17:24):
winning, but not yeah.
Happiness.
And actually, first of all, yourdaughter, that's so insightful,
even though she has to be yourdaughter and you're the
neuroscience and I'm sure it'snot terribly hard, but yeah,
that's so cool that she picks upon that and has awareness of
that.
(17:44):
I love hearing that.
But it reminds me of in 2016, Idon't know if you'll remember
this, but when Peter spoke,Peter Levine spoke in Portland.
I remember it was the first timeI met you.
I didn't really meet you, butthe first time I talked to you,
because he was doing like alittle, maybe a two-day workshop
(18:06):
at the Hilton, somethingdowntown in Portland.
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Oh, yeah, for Pussy or something like that.
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
Yeah, it must have been.
I honestly can't remember.
But...
And it was election year, and hehad photos of Donald Trump and
sort of was, without being toocontroversial, going into...
I remember specifically himtalking about the way his mouth,
(18:33):
how he held his mouth and thissort of attachment reaching.
Do you remember that at all?
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
Vaguely.
SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
Yeah, but I just remember being fascinated.
Well, because he can read bodylanguage or...
I don't know if read's the rightword, but yeah.
Anyway, it's really aninteresting thing to think
about.
And I like thinking about him asa little infant or a little baby
because that brings so muchcompassion to my heart.
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:59):
No matter what is happening politically.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
Isn't it nice to be able to access that, that sense
of compassion?
And for whatever it's worth, ifI'm still allowed to bring this
back around to free will, one ofthe things that I love about
about integrating thisunderstanding is that it does
allow me to have a lot morecompassion
SPEAKER_02 (19:24):
because
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
I'm no longer moving through the world, judging
people and saying that person isjust a bad person who they must
want to do this.
Like when they cut me off on thefreeway, they must want, They
must have been in the lane andsaid to themselves, I could just
stay in this lane and not almostkill that other driver and his
(19:48):
children.
SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
But
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
I just want to get over, and I don't care.
I don't care.
They can suffer.
And did all of that as thisdeliberative action that they
were utterly and completely incontrol over.
That kind of stuff makes me mad.
(20:11):
And I get real, real mad whenthings like that happen.
Again, compassion for thekiddos.
They have to hear me cursing andwhatever, having some big
reaction to whatever.
But if I can remember that thatindividual no more chose...
(20:35):
to do that thing, then I choseto yell some expletive at them
that they're never gonna hear.
And we're all moving throughthis world, acting according to
things that we didn't choose.
(20:55):
And so I can start to let go ofthat sense of like, oh, this is
a bad person.
And they're, they're essentiallylike me, but they're just
choosing to do bad stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (21:08):
Right.
Right.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
They're not like me.
You know, they have not enjoyedthe luck that I have enjoyed to
arrive at this moment in my lifewith the, with this amount of
free attention and interest incertain kinds of, you know,
ethical behaviors.
You know, it's like, like I wasthinking, um, As I was driving
(21:33):
around today thinking about, Iwonder what we're gonna talk
about, I was reflecting on this.
I, as a person, have movedthrough this world sitting with
spiritual teachers, sitting withtherapy teachers.
I've been to all kinds ofworkshops and retreats and all
this.
And some number of thoseteachers, when I would get close
(21:55):
enough to them, I would realizelike, ooh, this person is a
little, hmm.
you know, like there's a littlebit of like, you know, some kind
of malignant narcissism going onhere and I would get burned and,
and be really resentful.
And, and now I'm a teacher and Irealized like, I've been moving
through the world kind of withthis, like, like I'm not like
(22:19):
them, you know, this like senseof superiority that I'm like,
yeah, I'm not making thosechoices.
Like I'm not, you know,exploiting people and seeing
people as pawns on a chessboardto aggrandize myself or create
(22:40):
more resources for me.
And I've been really kind ofgetting off on that.
And all of a sudden, the wholehouse of cards just came down.
And I was like, I'm just lucky.
I'm just lucky for whateverreason.
I did not come into the worldwith the genetics or
environmental cues that createdin me that particular set of
(23:07):
ethical predispositions.
I have the ones that I have andI'm incredibly grateful because
I think that I'm probably at theend of the day, living a better
life, feeling freer insidemyself, like sleeping, you know,
whatever, sleeping better,however, you know, whatever
metaphor we want to use.
And, and I'm really glad aboutthat, but I should not, I should
(23:30):
not sit there thinking thatlike, there's something superior
about me.
Like, this is just, you know,this is just dumb, dumb luck in
a sense that I didn't choose andI didn't earn.
I didn't earn it.
You know, it's just whathappened.
So anyways, I do think it'suseful to be able to hold some
(23:54):
of these perspectives because itsoftens us, I think, in a way
that's probably reallyimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (24:01):
I...
I value that a lot.
It's taken me back to when Ithink I was a senior in high
school and I was in psychology,a psychology class, and we were
talking about serial killers.
And I had, this is how Iwrangled in my very first
(24:24):
serious boyfriend.
I
SPEAKER_00 (24:29):
love this story already.
SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
It's totally true, which is so funny.
But anyway, so we were talkingabout specifically Jeffrey
Dahmer and the class was, and Ithink I raised my hand and said
something like, kind ofunderstanding the, I don't know,
thin line between me and JeffreyDahmer, which was probably
(24:56):
frightening to many of my class,my peers, but there was one guy
who got it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
Yeah.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (25:04):
right.
Exactly.
He's like, that's my girl.
But yeah, basically like,haven't you ever felt crazy
before was what I said, my 17year old self said, and that was
prior to me having panic attacksand really going on this journey
of understanding, I don't, notmental health, mental unhealth,
but I've been watching not adocumentary, but a made up, a
(25:29):
fictional show, but called, Ithink it's Mindhunters, but it's
about like the beginning of theFBI.
I think the serial killer sortof unit of the FBI, I think,
hopefully I'm saying thatcorrectly.
UNKNOWN (25:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:47):
Can you hear the dirt bikes in the background?
I think, okay, good.
SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
I heard something.
I wasn't sure.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
And I'm really holding compassion that they are
not choosing to do
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
that, right?
That's right.
Their attraction to that is notsomething that they selected.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
No, it's genetic.
Anyway, so, but yeah, thinkingabout and watching these films,
fake interviews, but I'massuming they're based on some
sort of reality or hopefully, Idon't know, maybe I'll research
it more.
Probably not.
Where they are talking about,but I guess where I'm trying to
(26:33):
go with this is just the idealike, I don't think they would
have chosen that if they couldhave, is my feeling and my
guess.
And What an awful life and it'shard, but to muster some
(26:53):
compassion toward that scenario.
But that is a way bigger can ofworms.
That's what I'm talking about.
Well,
SPEAKER_01 (27:04):
for sure.
I mean, but we can even lookthere, like your ability to hold
compassion for that situation.
is itself choiceless.
UNKNOWN (27:15):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Right.
Like there's other people inthis world, maybe the family
members of Jeffrey Dahmer'svictims who will never be able
to, for a moment, feelcompassion for him.
SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Even someone I might be watching the show with might
have an absolutely differentexperience.
And you're right.
It does not feel like a choice.
I don't know why I'm made thisway, but I have been since I was
very little.
And I remember thatspecifically.
UNKNOWN (27:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
Yeah, I think a capacity for empathy might be
one of those things that isshaped by genetic factors and
then whether our environmentprepares us for that.
Like if we're not shown empathy,we may have a deficiency in our
(28:06):
capacity to empathize withothers.
UNKNOWN (28:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
Yeah.
It's pretty, it's prettyfascinating, which is why I love
my work, my line of work.
Okay.
So I know I'm being careful oftime and we have about 12
minutes and I want to make sure.
So I want to make sure to
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
kind of just, just, you know, I have till 515.
So are
SPEAKER_02 (28:28):
you sure?
Yeah.
Okay.
I like my me questioning yourlife.
Are you sure?
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
Yeah, no positive.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
Okay, good.
Cause I think this one might bea little bit longer and I'm sure
free will will come into it.
I'm not sure how though.
Actually, let me first say, sosometimes this happens where
something will come into thefield.
Like, so, so, you know, you knewyou had this interview and I'll
start to like, like, like Idreamt about our interview or
(28:56):
our interaction last night.
And I, I, dreamt that we weretalking about the Feldenkrais
method.
So I'm like, Oh, should I bringthat up?
I don't know, but I'm just goingto hold that over here.
Cause that was my dream.
But what I really want to talkabout is I want to have this
(29:17):
really, I feel lucky to havethis moment to engage in this,
what I emailed you about acouple, a year, maybe a year
ago.
about this spiritual experience.
I was lucky enough toparticipate in a demo and you
were the practicer, the facultytherapist.
(29:39):
And I'm comfortable talkingabout this part of it for sure.
And it was a very impactful demosession.
And there was a point toward theend where I looked at you, but I
It was so surreal, psychedelicalmost, where I could see, first
(30:04):
of all, I felt really safe.
And I want to kind of emphasizethat.
I felt really physically safe,emotionally safe in the setting
we were in, being there.
It was just a really safeexperience.
And I looked at you and it waslike I'm trying to describe
(30:24):
something like Psychedelic isreally difficult, as I'm sure
you know.
But it was as if through youreyes, I could see you for sure.
It wasn't like you went away.
But it was also as if I couldsee, maybe it was more in my
mental channel, but akaleidoscope of, so it was like
(30:44):
a tunnel of, like, honestly, itwas like lifetimes in universes.
UNKNOWN (30:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:54):
And the only reason I know that is because of the
way that trying to put myselfback there a little bit.
But I guess what I want toreally ask about is just the
spiritual piece of this traumahealing, healing in general.
(31:16):
You can throw free will inthere.
But it was for sure a spiritualmoment.
of connected to healing trauma.
And I, and I think is that youmight have Intel, but I think
that's what Peter Levine's newbook is going to cover.
Maybe spirituality and trauma.
SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
Is it, do you mean the memoir or something else?
I
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
think the memoir that's out and I think it's
April.
I think I saw you can pre-orderit.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Okay.
Yeah.
Not that we have to
SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
talk about that at all, but.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yeah.
I don't have Intel.
I haven't, uh, I haven't readit.
Um, and I think it's the storyof his life and he, uh, you
know, he's had some experiencesthat I think he's going to be
sharing about, you know, in thatbook that are, uh, that involve
(32:16):
altered states of consciousness,like the one that you're
describing here.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
And
SPEAKER_01 (32:23):
it's funny how we have those experiences and we
apply this term psychedelic tothem.
SPEAKER_02 (32:28):
And
SPEAKER_01 (32:29):
that might confuse people because they're going to
be thinking, oh, psychedelicsubstances.
SPEAKER_02 (32:34):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (32:36):
But experiences of what we might call expanded
states of consciousness ornon-normative states of
consciousness, those areavailable to us in lots of
different contexts.
People on meditation retreatwill have things like this begin
to unfold.
People experiencing hypnosiswill start to have their
(33:01):
perceptual faculties shifted.
all kinds of different contextswhere folks will have
experiences that kind of openthem up in different ways.
And what you're describingsounds like one of those where
somehow in that moment, yoursystem was able to access
(33:25):
another layer, if you will, anawareness that were maybe not
normally able to access.
Because imagine if you hadaccess to that all the time, if
every moment of every day youwere walking around, seeing the
(33:48):
tunnel, feeling the lifetimes.
It would be very distracting.
How are you going to get by?
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
Take care of the kids and hate the dirt bike
guys.
SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
Exactly.
Yeah, no.
It would be like the mundanewould be, I would not do it.
It would be like brush my teeth.
No, why?
Look at this.
SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
That's right.
That's right.
So, you know, I do think thatthe universe has in a way
conspired to open those doorwaysto us only at times.
And, you know, it's a little bitunpredictable what provokes
those doors.
those openings.
(34:31):
I mean, with the psychedelicdrugs, it's not, you know,
because now, you know, sincethose, those medicines got
synthesized, you know, in the,you know, in the last decade,
you know, now, you know, you canjust put some, you know,
molecule in your body and you'regoing to have, you know,
recourse to, to that moreexpansive awareness.
(34:55):
But other people, you know, willdescribe this interesting thing
where, Some folks might meditatefor decades and never have one
of those experiences.
Some people sit down on thecushion and a couple hours later
have one of those experiences.
(35:15):
And again, yeah, you were sayingthis might touch on it.
Again, this might be areflection of genes and
environment, that some peoplecome into the world with a
psyche that is more prepared toaccess expanded states.
Or in the family that I grew upin, it was encouraged to look up
(35:45):
at the clouds and dream and thatthe people were open to when I
would start to spontaneouslytalk about God or something.
And other families, you know,maybe not so much.
Maybe that wouldn't bereinforced.
And so I would end up, you know,with more or less of a sense of
(36:08):
access to that.
So, you know, for you, that wasthere then.
I'm imagining that you'veprobably had some other kinds of
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
experiences like that in your life.
SPEAKER_02 (36:27):
Sorry for sort of an abrupt end, but I hope you
enjoyed my conversation with Dr.
Joshua Silvey.
And thanks for listening totoday's episode of Sneaky
Powerful.
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