July 14, 2025 • 55 mins
Kelly Shaw joins us to explore the transformative power of somatic therapy in addressing trauma through bodywork and touch. Through his unique approach combining acupuncture, osteopathic modalities, and somatic experiencing, Kelly creates a healing environment where bodies can feel safe to receive therapeutic touch.
• Transitioning from acupuncture to somatic experiencing after discovering trauma patterns in clients' bodies
• Developing a therapeutic approach based on three intersecting factors: practitioner's toolset, client's needs, and client's ability to receive
• Understanding body consent as distinct from verbal consent in therapeutic touch
• Working with the female body's history of medicalization and helping clients find authentic boundaries
• Finding the hypotonic (under-resourced) areas rather than just addressing hypertonic (tense) areas
• Taking daily naps as essential practitioner self-care to remain present for clients
• Exploring Body Dynamics as a developmental framework that complements trauma work
• Recognizing when addressing developmental resources is more effective than targeting trauma directly
For those interested in learning more about Kelly's work or to schedule a consultation, visit www.shaweastasianmedicine.com or contact him through the information available on his website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Sneaky Powerful
Podcast.
My name is Allie Caparro andI'm so glad you're here.
Today's guest is my friend andcolleague, kelly Shaw.
Kelly is an acupuncturist,herbalist and somatic therapy
practitioner in Portland, oregon.
Clinically, he is focused ontrauma, co-regulating touch
(00:23):
therapy and the use of somaticdevelopmental methodologies.
He is also currently acounselor in training at
Northwestern University, wherehe is pursuing studies in
psychodynamic therapy.
My discussion with Kelly was someaningful to me personally and
professionally.
Our conversation gets morelovely the more we talk and I am
(00:47):
so deeply moved by Kelly's workand offerings to this world.
I really hope you enjoy thisepisode.
Hey Kelly, welcome to theSneaky Powerful Podcast.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Good.
Thank you very much for givingus the opportunity to come on.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, I'm really excited to see, as you said,
what we come up with and wherewe go with this conversation.
But how about?
I wanted to ask the firstquestion, which is tell me about
how you got into somaticexperiencing.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I don't know anything about your road to SE yeah,
Road into this, into this land,yeah Well, so I let me think
about that.
So I, you know, I graduatedfrom in CNM, what is now in UNM
as a you know.
As for my acupuncture degree,in 2013.
And then I started practicing in2015.
(01:45):
And very quickly I found that Ineeded more resources, more
tools to work with the clients Ihad.
So the very first thing I didis actually I went and I started
studying osteopathic modalities.
So I started studying cranialsacral therapy and visceral
manipulation and and craniopathyand started doing that both
with, like you know, variousinstitutes that teach those
(02:07):
things, then also startedworking with a mentor of mine,
uh, a woman of dr sheila murphy,who's now retired but had been
one of my professors uh at ncnmuh and was also someone who had
done a tremendous amount ofcraniopathy, cranial
psychotherapy, and also was asomatic body therapist, and so
(02:30):
she had actually studied asystem called body dynamics and
also had done, had workedthrough, a system called
psychosynthesis and had beenexposed to a lot of the early
folks in the body work world andthe somatic therapy world.
So she worked directly with,like Ron Kurtz from Hikomi.
(02:52):
Um, she actually did her bodydynamics training with Peter
Levine, uh, from somatic youknow, obviously the, the founder
of somatic experiencing uh hadworked with, you know, like Pat
you know, Pat Ogden had workedwith her directly, had worked
directly with Bessel van derKolk, like a lot of these folks
had worked with them directly,um so anyway.
So, having known her in gradschool, uh, and known what she
(03:15):
could do with her hands, that'swhat first inspired me to start
working with the cranial sacraltherapy and with, with
osteopathic modalities.
And then, very quickly, I foundthis thing in people's bodies
called trauma, and yeah, therewas.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I was excited.
I was like what's he gonna say?
Oh, trauma.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
And so people are.
You know, I had these reallypowerful experiences with people
on the table having thesereally big emotional releases,
and sometimes they seem likethey're positive catharsis kind
of experiences, and sometimesthey were not, or, you know,
they didn't have this kind ofdysregulated place and kind of a
place I would.
But now I've known what I'd callas reenactment rather than as
integration or release, or andso, from that then I was, I
(04:04):
decided that if I was going tocontinue that kind of work, I
needed to get more resources inhow to deal with trauma and how
to deal with the nervous systemdirectly, and so that led me to
working.
You know, I read, uh, the firstbook I read by peter levine was
in an unspoken voice, um, andyou know I was like, yes, this
is what I, this is what I needto help my clients, um, and so
(04:26):
then, yeah, so they went and didthe training, um, and then
continued after that with doingtouch work, training with Kathy
Kane and Steve Terrell, um, andthen more work with Steve
Terrell, and have done a ton ofother body work and touch work
therapy as well to add onto that.
Um, the interesting thing isnow, in my practice I primarily
somatic experiencing and andsomatic experiencing touch work,
(04:46):
but less and less of theosteopathic work directly um,
because I find that it can betoo um, too cathartic for folks,
that people can have too muchcome out from it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So, yeah, so you just said about, like, let me think,
let me be realistic like 300things that I want to follow up
on.
Okay, that's not realistic, butwow, um, so exciting to talk
about all of this.
Uh, let's go.
There was immediately aquestion when you said that you
(05:17):
had gotten your acupuncturedegree and you decided you
needed more resources.
And that's when you sought outthe osteopath kind of
information and I was thinking,what did you see like doing
acupuncture?
That you thought, oh yeah, Ineed more resources.
I'm super curious because Ilove, love, love acupuncture and
(05:39):
I'm wondering what you saw.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, totally, a lot of it was again because of
experience I'd had in gradschool with.
Yeah, totally, um, I mean, alot of it was again, you know,
because of experience I'd had ingrad school with with my mentor
, dr Sheila Murphy.
Uh, you know, I had theseexperiences where I'd be working
with people in acupuncture andbe like, oh, this looks like so
it's like one of those thingsthat she used to talk about,
right, either it'd be like akind of emotional holding
pattern in the body or, um,something that's going on with.
(06:02):
Like this seems like thecranium might be twisted a
little bit.
Or I did a lot of a lot of myclients have been folks with,
like, whiplash injuries and youknow cause.
In my practice I work with both,like you know, physical
ailments directly people'sshoulder pain, neck pain you
know all the pains and then alsowith you know, psycho-emotional
conditions that folks deal withall the time too, and so you
(06:25):
know there's pretty quickly is,you know, clear that there's a
an interrelationship betweenthose two in my practice and one
part of it was reaching it andone part of it wasn't, and so
I'd had just enough experiencefrom working with with my mentor
that I could tell that there'sthis like edge of something
there that like, yeah, I could,I could stick a needle in this,
but also it seems like there'sthis like edge of something
there that like, yeah, I could,I could stick a needle in this,
(06:45):
but also it seemed like there'sthere's something I want to do
here with the body and somethingthat this, these people needed
that wasn't quite beingsatisfied by the acupuncture I
was doing.
Um, and so in you know, I'ddone body work training while I
was in school, uh, and so I hadpretty good hands.
I had done palpation work withwith Dr Murphy again and done,
(07:07):
uh, you know, two years of ofshatsu training with one of my
other teachers there, uh, dr JimCleaver Um, and so I had really
good hands, could also feelthat things were happening in
people's bodies that I neededmore information for as well.
Um, and you know, there's kindof a difference too.
In the traditional, traditionalmodel for Chinese medicine you
(07:29):
learn body work first and then,after a number of years, you
come and you learn to doacupuncture after that.
So the American model in mostschools inverts that, and so
partially what I at that time Iwas also looking at was that I
knew I needed to go and get morebody work skills and more hand
skills to be able to eventuallydevelop the kind of acupuncture
(07:49):
skills that I was looking for atthat time.
So those things all kind ofdovetailed together really
nicely, along with theexperience of what my clients
were having.
That you know it wasn't.
You know there's somethingthere I needed to touch but
couldn quite get to um with theneedles alone.
I needed other skills tocontinue that yeah and and part
(08:10):
of it was kind of the, the, youknow the mental, emotional and
the kind of traumatic or or nowalso developmental things that
were underlying folks.
Yeah, I knew needed to benourished or touched in some way
, contacted in some way in orderto be resolved, and I was also
(08:30):
hungry to find a place to helpmy clients with that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, I'm curious.
I know that I'm going to, atsome point, have an appointment
with you but I'm curious what itmight look like.
I've had acupuncture andcupping, but I'm trying to think
of what it would look like tocombine any of the body work.
(08:53):
Or do you combine the SE withthe acupuncture?
What would an appointment?
I guess there's not a typicalappointment with you, but what
would a typical appointment, ifyou can quantify it at all?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
They look.
I can't really quantify it, butI can try and give it a.
I can try a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yes, you go, kelly.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
You know the the range of what people come to see
me for.
I have a big enough tool basketthat people can come for a lot
of different stuff, and you knowa lot of my work now looks like
it's just didactic work whereI'm like, or traditional SC,
where I'm just talking to theclient, right, Um, and you know
doing work like that, where itcan also look like I'm doing
(09:35):
deep tissue or myofascialrelease or, um, you know that
kind of really intense bodyintervention, kind of therapy.
Or it can look like osteopathicwork, where I'm, you know,
having five grams of pressureless on someone and you know
manipulating tissues that way,or manipulating rhythms in the
body that way.
Or it can look like me justholding someone's kidneys, um,
(09:57):
and all of those things can beinter interrelated in the
treatment room, right, or youknow?
Or with traditional acupuncturetoo, or traditional herbs.
It really depends on what'sgoing on with the person and
kind of where where ourrelationship meets
therapeutically in the room, andso there's also what's also
(10:18):
true is I have a lot of skillsthat a lot of other
practitioners don't have, and soif someone has an osteopath in
their, their team of people, I'mprobably not going to do that
for them, cause I'm going to tryand focus on the things that I
have that they don't have fromother people in their care team.
Got, it Got it, and so the theirony of that is I don't
actually do that muchacupuncture anymore, right,
(10:40):
because the truth is is likepeople come in to see me and
they're like, well, here's allthe stuff I got going on, I want
acupuncture.
I'm like, great, well, let medo all those other things.
And you know, go go down theroad to the community
acupuncture place and getacupuncture for $25.
Yeah, and then come back to meand we'll like, let me use the
other skills I have to help youin these other ways now.
But acupuncture with a lot ofclients, um, you know again,
(11:03):
still depend what's going on Umand it.
You know I have done the thingwhere I've combined SE and
acupuncture, where the firsthalf of the session will be SE
and the second half of thesession will be acupuncture, um,
and I've seen really goodresults with that as an example.
Right, you know, where you kindof deal with some stuff, get,
get the nervous system, you knowup and juicy a little bit, um.
You know up and juicy a littlebit, um, especially folks who
(11:23):
have developmental stuff wherethey kind of struggle to get
regulated on their own, yeah, uh, where you can kind of go into
the content a little bit becauseyou're not spending the whole
hour there.
You spend a little bit of timegetting the contact into the
juiciness and then let theneedles regulate them.
Wow, right, so then, becausetheir system can't necessarily
self-regulate yet it totally,you can put the needles in and
(11:44):
let the needles do the job ofgiving them that that deep
regulation from in their nervoussystem right uh, and then they
don't have to do anything andyou don't have to do anything.
They get a break from contact.
So if there's attachment stuffor yeah, you know all that, they
can have that break where theycan just sit and integrate with
their feeling, while they'realso being nourished,
potentially by the by that whenyou, when you mentioned that
(12:06):
about the needles let theneedles regulate.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
It's like my body heard that and remembered the
last time I got acupuncture andI was like, oh, I'm melting
needles, that's right it'slovely, right, you know oh my
gosh, so lovely.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I love it so much yeah yeah, and it's such a
powerful that that's one of thethings I love about acupuncture
that does it is a very powerfulmodulator of state.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
And you can move people out of a state that
they're otherwise stuck in Right.
And the same thing's true ofthe body work I do where you
know.
Now, if someone can't regulate,I'm like nine times out of 10,
I'll just put them on the tableand do body work with them.
That I know is going to beregulating.
And you know they get up offthe table and they're like I
don't, I don't know whathappened.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
It just feels so different to worry about it, but
you feel better.
That's the important part,right.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And so, yeah, so like a typical session with me can
look like a lot of things.
I have this kind of I have thiskind of thing I do with my
clients now, which is, you know,I kind of I often, often the
struggle for me when people comein is I don't know what it is
that they expect or what theirexpectations are for treatment.
Right, and because I've done,I've done enough things.
(13:18):
sometimes I'm like, well, Idon't know if this person wants
me to do you know A or Z orright or right, anything between
so this little trick that I donow, which is I look to see who
referred them and I think, oh,what does that person think I do
?
That's funny, and and oftenthat's what they want back from
me, like, oh yeah, I heard youdo this and I'm like oh yeah,
okay, I do that, I'll do that,we're gonna do that today and
(13:43):
then that's funny, that's a goodidea and then go from there
right, Based on whatever theirexperience is Right.
So, and then again, you know,based on what their needs are
and kind of where they need tobe.
And and you know, I, I alsokind of described to my clients
often as kind of Venn diagram ofof three things the first, the
first circle, is what, what mytool sets are and what I'm
(14:04):
capable of doing, Right.
And the second circle then isgoing to be what my client needs
, Okay.
And then the third circle isgoing to be what can they
receive and how can they receiveit oh, that's an important
question that I don't think it'sasked.
(14:24):
Yeah, yeah and so you say itagain I'm right, I'm taking
notes.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
What can you say?
What can they receive?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
yeah, what can they receive and how?
So the the first circle againis like what, what my tool set
is and what I can give them, andthen the second set being what
their needs are and the thirdset being what they can receive
or what their capacity for forreceiving is, and and where we
ideally I'm going to be workingin the like that little tiny
(14:54):
space where all of those thingsintersect to be working in the
like that little tiny spacewhere all of those things
intersect.
Yeah, and, and part of that toois recognizing that they may
have needs.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
but they can't receive them yet.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Totally Right.
And so you know, even withtouch therapy, when I'm doing
touch work with people, there'speople who may need a very
gentle approach to their body,but they may not be able to
receive gentle contact yet itmay not feel safe for them yet,
or vice versa.
Someone may need really deeptissue contact, right when it's
(15:24):
like okay, like I got to getthrough your axilla down
underneath your rib cage, downto where your subscapularis is,
and it's going to hurt butyou're going to move.
What's my?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
axilla.
The axilla is the armpit.
So wow, so you're going to pushinto that and go through those
layers yeah, and it's going tohurt.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And so then I have to be able to to kind of judge can
this person receive thiscontact or not?
And then, if they can't, can Ihelp them to receive it or get
their nervous system to a placewhere it can receive it safely,
and then can I actually do thework so I can then, you know,
like in that case, like maybefree up their shoulder mobility,
right, and then all of thatwould still be in the context of
(16:10):
working with what SE has taughtme, because I'm going to be
looking at the nervous system tosee if the nervous system is
overreacting or underreacting tocontact, like over bracing or
under bracing.
Is it going, are they going tocollapse?
Are they?
Are they bracing too much?
Right, you know?
And how do we work with thosethings in order to be able to
get my clients to a place wherethey can receive the contact
(16:32):
that they actually need, andthat may be again, that's
another question that brings inthings like attachment, as well
as trauma, history anddevelopmental picture and all of
those things, and includingjust social history of people.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
So how did you learn about in the midst of learning
all of this other stuff?
How did you learn about thethings like attachment and
developmental trauma and thingslike that in your own, in your
spare time?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I did, or less.
Actually, I have a very largewall of books at home that helps
a lot.
Again, most, a lot of thosethings came because, you know,
as I started studying traumatherapy and and somatic therapy
in general, which somatictherapy has always been, you
know, the big, wide umbrella ofsomatics is really my passion in
(17:27):
what I do, and SE andacupuncture and the body work I
do are all aspects underneaththat big umbrella of just I love
working with the body and themagic of just I love working
with the body, and the magic ofwhat happens when you work with
the body.
Um, you know, so as as I wasjust working those realms, it's
kind of impossible not to runinto attachment.
(17:47):
And if you're paying attentionand so you've got a client on
the table who you know like asan example, uh, just doing like
the kidney work where all you'redoing is holding the kidneys
and holding intention forsupporting the person, it's a
really passive modality but it'svery powerful and you know, and
it's a very right brain toright brain kind of modality.
(18:07):
But right away I have aquestion.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Would you be willing?
Would you say that it's sneakypowerful.
I would say it's sneakypowerful I did it.
I did it.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
We might have to edit that out um, so, even when
you're just holding the kidneyright, uh, so then all this, all
these attachment dynamics comeup why the kidney, is that a?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
is that a tcm thing or is that no, actually the
kidney, is that a TCM thing, oris that?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
No, actually the kidney Well, so you can do it
from a TCM perspective, but thework that I've learned that from
is actually from Kathy Kane andSteve Terrell's work on somatic
resilience and regulation.
And I learned other work aroundthe kidneys from osteopathy,
again for visceral manipulationand Chinese medicine.
You know Chinese medicine.
The kidneys are the place wherewe tend to hold fear.
(18:58):
Fear is the emotion of thekidneys.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Oh, that makes me feel teary.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Okay.
And then attachment and fear,obviously so connected deeply.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Absolutely, and then yeah, and so of course you know
when you're working with thekidneys too, there's the
adrenals on top of them, whichare our big part of our stress
and cortisol system.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Right, Right, right.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So these are mediators of of our bodies in
big ways, and the kidneysthemselves help to mediate our
blood pressure, um, as well asthe adrenals on top of them.
So so these are places where wecan go to have that kind of
deep contact, Um.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
And so, when you know how people take in my hand,
just being present there isreally important, and I'm trying
to understand that like yeah,what would you notice if
someone's really able to like,for example, receive your
holding as opposed to something,and I get it?
This is hard to articulate, Iunderstand that, but if you're
(19:56):
willing, I would love to justknow as much as you can.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, so like, so, like one example of someone
who's really able to take incontact, for instance, might be,
that I, you know, I come incontact with their kidney and
they sink into my hand and theirwhole nervous system gets quiet
and deep yes, okay yeah, yeah,and so, and you can.
They look like they're a babygoing to sleep.
(20:20):
Yep right, the nervous systemcalms down.
It doesn't go into collapse,though there's a.
There's a difference there,right right, they're not going
to freeze and they're not goinginto collapse, they're not going
to association, they're,they're being held, and so their
nervous system is calming downand coming down because it's
receiving some nutrients there,right?
So, and then another contextmaybe what you see is you put
(20:41):
your hands there and the wholenervous system ramps up.
So you see, like their breath goup, their heart rate goes up,
they might get hot in the face,right you know they might have.
One of the things you can feel,you can kind of palpate, is
fluid dynamics, so you can seethat you can feel the fluid
moving through the tissue moreum which is an aspect of the
(21:02):
heart rate going up Right.
Um uh, and they might pull awayfrom you a little bit right,
they might turn their head awayfrom you, or they might actually
roll a little bit right.
You might just get you know, Iget you know.
I pay a lot of attention towhat I'm feeling when I'm doing
this too, of course you mightjust get the sense that like
(21:22):
something doesn't feel right inthe contact right um, and so you
know, one of the things I'malways looking for when I'm
doing any kind of touch work uh,which is, you know, would be
included of this kind of touchwork, right is I'm looking to
see if the body is consenting tothe contact or not.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
And you know, a lot of times people will orally,
they'll tell you, they'll saylike yeah, do the thing.
They'll say yes, 100%.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
But the thing I'm looking for is I need to have
the oral permission, the oralconsent and the physical consent
from the body in order to beable to do the kind of work that
I do.
And if the body doesn't giveconsent, then I'm going to start
working with them around bodyconsent and helping them to step
into having body consent tothem, like working with that as
(22:14):
a dynamic and so like, forinstance, instance, I can think
of one client um won't givetheir name, obviously uh but you
know years ago who is here, uh,in my you know my room here in
portland, and she had come infor some somatic body work, uh,
and as soon as I put my hands onher back, her whole system came
into a like a sympatheticresponse and she was breathing
(22:38):
hard and she was bracing on thetable and like, not looking at
me, just looking, you know, deadahead on the table, and I was
like what's happening for youright now?
Right, and we're able to begina conversation that backed up
and let her recognize that herbody wasn't consenting and she
was a body worker too.
And so she was like, well, I'msupposed to let you do this.
(23:01):
I'm like, no, you're not,actually, you need to, not let
me do this.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Honor the no right.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Honor the no and let the body have the no, and so, as
a result of that conversation,we then spent some time where we
were working with contact backand forth to find out what
contact was safe for her body toreceive and what contact wasn't
safe for her body to receive.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
What a beautiful exploration.
I am so excited by what you'retalking about yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
So so then we, you know, if we go back to that Venn
diagram, then we're actuallyworking with where can she
receive and expanding thatcapacity within, again, an
attached relationship because,she gets to have an experience
of being with somebody whoactually who's paying attention
to her body in a way that'scaring but also really attuned
to her nervous system and reallytuned to what her system really
needs, rather than a bodythat's being medicalized it's so
(24:01):
beautiful because I'm thinkingone of the things.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
So I have some trauma in my own past and sexual abuse
is part of that trauma, and Iwas thinking how there's such a
um, a common like outward, in umdescription of like, have
boundaries, have boundaries,like people telling me, have
boundaries, and it's socomplicated, when being
(24:25):
boundaryless helped me survivecertain situations.
Not, it wasn't even a choice.
You know, you know how thatgoes, you know trauma.
So.
So when you describe this, I'mthinking, oh, that's how I could
find places where I can haveboundaries and then extend that
to other places, like thisbeautiful exploration of where
(24:46):
can I receive and then buildingon into where, um, I need to be
able to receive or want toreceive, or want to protect,
like, like.
It just feels so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, I don't even know if that made sense, but it
made sense totally to me, sohopefully someone will get it
out there.
Yeah Well, and that's more ofthe process, right?
It's like the first thing islike helping people to recognize
that they can say no to me eventhough they need to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yes, exactly, exactly , exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
And then recognizing that's, you know, and especially
because I'm often a dynamicwhere I'm a male practitioner
working on often female bodies,right, but this is true of me
working as a male practitioneron male bodies too.
But often, you know, there'sjust more women who come to see
alternative medicinepractitioners than men.
So as a result of that, most ofmy clientele are women, and so
there's always going to be thatdynamic of having a male body
(25:36):
working on a female body whenthat's happening in the room,
and so so many women have had toconsent to things that they
didn't actually consent to, andalso so many women's bodies,
much more than men's bodies havebeen medicalized in ways that
men's bodies don't often getRight, and so they've had to
consent to medical treatmentthat they didn't really want to
receive or they didn't have anysupport around receiving is that
(26:00):
what you mean by medicalizedlike, or maybe you could explain
that to me?
Well, I mean, like you know, uh, you know, you know how, how
often you have to go in for anannual checkup with your
gynecologist yeah, right right,right, men don't do that right
right how much, uh know how muchare women's bodies medicalized
around birth control like men'sbodies or not.
(26:23):
You know, there's all these waysin which women's bodies have
like receive medicalinterventions for more often yes
, and that makes often are likeliterally touching their bodies,
that men don't receive.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
And so there's a.
There's a way in which thefemale body is more medicalized
than the male body and womenalso, look, you know, are far
more likely to go looking forcare than men.
Are, right, it's part of thegender dynamic that men often
don't like, neglect their bodiesand don't look for care that
they could need.
So they could ask, they kind ofchoose a little more.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but in general terms I get that,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
And so.
So then you know, women come inwho have often had very
medicalized bodies and then, so,then, and that conditions them
to saying yes in a medicalcontext, absolutely, absolutely
Right, and then.
So part of the trauma work isactually working back through
those past contacts that may not, you know, may have been quote,
unquote, consensual or required, but it doesn't mean that their
(27:24):
nervous system got the supportthat it needed while they're
having them Right.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
And it doesn't mean that that.
It certainly doesn't mean thatbecause they've had more touch
like that, the touch is moreneutral.
In fact, it means that touchlike that could already be more,
more charged absolutely, soabsolutely working with the body
and consent and be able to, topay attention.
The nervous system gives me anopportunity to be able to, to
(27:50):
notice that and bring it toawareness in the room in a way
that hopefully and like I've hadmany good experiences with this
in the room where then helpspeople to come to a place of
being able to consent or not tocontact yeah and then we can
start to play that, what youwere just describing earlier
around like, yeah, where,where's contact work?
where does it not?
What kind of contact?
(28:12):
How close does the contact needto be or not be?
And then, and then that bringsin all those aspects of
attachment and developmental yes, you know um processes that are
super important for being ableto hopefully bring about a
repair in that kind of contactwith people that's funny, that's
the word I just wrote down wasreparative, like it could be.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
It has potential.
This kind of work has potentialfor being so reparative.
And there's actually anotherinteresting perspective that I
wanted to share, if that's okay,I wanted the.
So one of the things with sexualabuse is this is the kind of
touch like there's a lot of inmy experience I'm working with
(28:56):
patients and clients.
Like there's a lot of in myexperience in working with
patients and clients, there's alot of confusion because it's
like attention and care might beneeded, but not that type of
attention and care, right.
And so there's often like this,this bind, this double bind or
this complexity to it.
Like I'm so scared and alone.
(29:17):
This is better than nothing,which I hope that comes across
how I mean it when I say it.
But I it's so beautiful tothink of how any sexual abuse
survivor, having the opportunityto say that's not the kind of
touch that I need and you're notgoing to leave, you're going to
(29:37):
help me figure out a safe wayto experience this touch, you're
going to still care for mewithin this appointment.
Like that's freaking amazing,like there's no other way to say
it Honestly.
Kind of lose my words with that,because it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
And that's exactly right that people, in many
contexts, you know people aretrying to get, you know, touch
work done of any kind, like well, we know, I don't want this and
it's like, ok, well then,session's over.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
And there's not the chance for them to have anyone
to really work with them on whatthat's like right uh, right, um
, and so that to repair it doesrequire that someone be able to
work with them, talk with them,be in relationship with them
around it yeah, exactly right,yeah, I'm not gonna leave you
because you said, no, I'm notgonna.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And, in fact, what I'm going to try and do is try
and find the kind of contactwhich is the like the most
comfortable for you.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And so that contact may be me having no like, might
be being very physically closebut not physically touching me,
standing on the other side ofthe room.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Right, that makes sense, yeah Right.
Helping them find the yes, yesand yeah, giving them the space,
helping a person find their yesso important.
And then there's congruence,right, which we know is so
healing, like the inside matchesnot only the outside, but even
the layers between the outsideand the inside, the tissues and
(31:09):
the yeah, yep, oh, yep, oh, thisis so tender.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
That's part of what I think happens right Is because
they've had to, or you know they, whether they've had to or not,
they've chosen a consent tocontact that they don't really
want to consent to.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yes, that's a, that's a discongruence between the
insides and outsides Right.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
And then the second part of it is that I have to be
congruent, because if I'm therebeing like, oh, it's okay that
you don't want me to touch you,but really, the inside of me is
not.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
They're going to feel that, yeah, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Right.
So then part of the navigationoften happens is me helping them
to recognize that I'm reallyokay, like if they don't want me
to touch them, that does notlike, that doesn't hurt my
feelings, it doesn't destabilizeme, it doesn't upset me.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
They're totally allowed to have the boundary
that's real for them and genuinefor them.
So you said destabilize, andreferring to yourself, and
actually that was a question Ihad early on when we were
talking, and I'm curious aboutit again what do you do?
Or there's two questions kindof coming in at the same time,
(32:20):
but one of them is what do youdo to stabilize, stay stable?
That's one of the questions.
But the other question is kindof a bigger question about, like
your, a little bit of yourhistory, who you are and, um,
were you ever like dysregulated?
And so you pursued this careerto seek regulation like the rest
(32:42):
of us?
yeah, um, those are very bigquestions, I know, and maybe we
could do round two on thepodcast, so you can just pick
the easier of the two.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, maybe To maybe answer the question about how do
I stay stable.
Yeah, so in the room there's alot of doing my own somatic work
with myself.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Love this.
Yes, doing my own somatic workwith myself.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
So, yes, tracking myself, tracking my breath,
tracking sensation, my body,noticing the emotion as it comes
up, Um, and you know, needinglike, if I need to ground or
center, doing that, um, and thenalso really just being okay
with my own emotional response,whatever it is, um, so you know,
I think a lot of you know.
(33:33):
Again, coming back to my, youknow the woman I owe so much to
my mentor, dr sheila murphy.
Um, you know, part of what shereally ingrained in me over the
years I worked with her, uh, wasthe importance of practitioner
cultivation and working on myown stuff, and so if something's
really triggering to me in theroom, it's a really good idea to
(33:53):
go figure out what that's aboutand work with it, and so that's
helped me to be able to staystable with folks in a lot of
different kinds of responses.
And also really kind of separatefrom who I am from their
response.
Whatever it is, that really hasnothing to do with me, it's
their response Right To avoidthat counter transference or
(34:16):
transference yeah, that's right,yeah, and then and then, when
it does happen, to use it as alever actually, if it possible,
right?
So you know, I do a lot of thatkind of self-care in the room
and you know one of the thingswhen, when I, you know,
sometimes I mentor folks insomatics, and you know, of
course, one of the questionsthat comes up when you're
(34:37):
mentoring people a lot is likehow do you make it safe for
other people to do their traumawork, how do you make it safe in
the room for them to do that?
And the number one thing, in myopinion, is that we have to
make sure that it's safe for youto be in the room first, and so
that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
You might have tell me more about that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So if you know, if, if I'm in the, you know if I'm
in the room with someone thatscares the hell out of me, the
first thing I need to do is getsafe so that my system is
regulated.
Or if they're telling me a storyabout something that scares the
hell out of me then I need tofigure out how to take care of
myself before I ever worry aboutregulating them or taking care
of them.
And so to me, the mostimportant person in the room to
(35:16):
be taken care of first is thepractitioner taking care of
themselves, and then, if they'reresourced, then they have the
opportunity to provide thoseresources for other people.
And so that's kind of what Imean by that right.
And so sometimes when I'm inthe room I am doing more
self-care than I am reallyexternally focused on my, my
clients, and it happens less andless as I get more and more
(35:39):
resourced, and you know.
But if something's really bigand powerful, then I'm going to
be, I'm going to be working withme and maintaining stability in
myself first, and, if nothingelse, part of what I'm doing
there you know unconsciously,subconsciously for them is I am
actually demonstrating them inmy body how they can regulate
themselves.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, right, right.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
But if I can't regulate it for myself, then
anything I do that's going to beintervention is going to be
incongruent.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
It's going to be incongruent for them and they're
going to like.
You know people as you know.
You know people with trauma arevery, very sensitive and will
smell that out.
Oh my gosh, in a minute,no-transcript horror stories
(36:58):
that people have.
That can be really rough.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
And so there's a balance for me in terms of
taking care of myself andstaying stable, between staying
stable in the room for theclient, but also being able to
feel and have my own authenticreaction to whatever it is.
And so I think for me, uh, likepeople have asked me, how do
you, how do you do this and not,uh, you know, not suffer a lot
(37:25):
of vicarious trauma.
For me that's kind of.
Actually, the trick is that Ifeel what I feel when I feel it
right, rather than waiting tofeel it later.
Right and uh, you know, and solong as that's an appropriate
emotion, then I will likely showit like share it with my client
right or allow myself to havethe external expression of that
(37:47):
emotion without it looks like,um, if it's something that's
inappropriate, that I'm notgoing to do that yeah, right but
you know, like you know, one ofmy clients, um, uh, you know,
you know he was talking aboutsome very, some very difficult
things in his family and as heleft, he said you know, you were
, you were really there with me,with that right, you cried with
(38:10):
me me with that right.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
You cried with me.
You're like, yeah, I was.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Oh, holly, that's so tender I can't wait for my
appointment gonna be tomorrownow, well, if you come down,
here.
I know I fly now, so you knowyou can come down anytime you
want, but so but that's actuallyfor me to be able to be, um
like, truly authentic in theroom with people actually allows
me to be more stable too thatmakes sense, letting it move
(38:45):
through you instead of, like,pocketing it away in some of
your tissue or muscle, or yeahright, that's, that's right.
Yeah, and and also because I'm,because I'm a body worker and
licensed as an acupuncturist,you know, I don't have the same
kinds of ethical uh orprofessional boundaries that
traditional mental healththerapists have.
Yes, yes, nor do I have thesame training.
Right, I don't have thattraining.
(39:06):
I have a different set oftraining, and my training allows
me to be, uh, emotionallypresent in a way that might be
unethical in a more traditionalpsychotherapy practice, and so I
take advantage of that.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, yeah Right.
So, yeah, such good stuff Isthat is the stability part of
your napping routine Will youtell us all about your napping.
I am in love with this.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah, maybe actually yes.
So, yeah, part of my self careroutine we talked about this
before we started recording isthat every, every day that I'm
in in the treatment room, I takea nap.
So I, you know, I'm verythankful that I, because I work
in private practice- I canstructure my day any way that I
want, and not everybody has thisopportunity.
(39:58):
It's a very, it's a massiveprivilege that I have this in
our modern world.
But I take a two hour lunchevery day and I go and get my
food.
Usually, you know, I'm all likeyou know, do charts, whatever,
and then while I'm eating, andthen I take a 20 to 30 minute
map every day that I'm in the inthe room, I take a nap and that
(40:19):
helps me tremendously to beable to be fresh and kind of,
you know, rinse out from my bodywhat was happening in the
earlier part of the day so I canbe present and awake and alive
for the second part of the day.
And yeah, I didn't used toalways do that and I would.
I would literally start fallingasleep on clients in the
afternoon.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
And so I?
I just learned that I can't dothat.
I have to do, I have to take mynaps, I have to take care of
myself, and that goes a longways towards my clients, me
being present in the room withmy clients which is what they
(41:01):
really need me to be.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
So exactly, yeah, you're kind of influencing my,
my work life.
I'm thinking of some things I'mgonna tweak, and change is just
from this beautifulconversation.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Well, I also have the I have the great privilege of,
also because I do body work.
I have a table in my room I cansleep on is that where you
sleep?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
I was thinking.
I was like, where are youtaking this nap?
But I have a table in my room Ican sleep on.
Is that where you sleep?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I was thinking I was like where are you taking?
Speaker 1 (41:16):
this nap.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Well, I have like you know now that, now that it's,
you know the fall has come andthe winter is coming right.
You know I have a, I have atable warmer and I've got big
blankets, like I can be verycozy.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, right, yeah, highly recommend.
Yes, I know I'm in a situationright now where I'm not allowed
to get paid to take a nap and wedisagree a lot with that.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Yeah, yeah, there, yeah as I've said to many of my
friends, there's a reason I workalone and for myself.
This is one of them.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
It's a good one it's a really good one, let's see.
So we have a few minutes leftand I am trying to decide what.
What area I wanted?
Oh, I know I so looking at mynose, I wanted to go back to
body dynamics for a minute I.
(42:06):
There's some real similaritiesbetween SE and body dynamics.
That accurate?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
okay, there is yes yeah, yeah, so body dynamics is
a.
You know, it's a system thatcomes out of denmark.
Uh, the primary founder of itwas my name of lisbeth marcher,
um, although you know there's afew other folks who are involved
too.
I think all together there'sabout don't quote me on this
exact number anybody, but Ithink there's about 13 people
(42:32):
who came together, uh and helpeddevelop the system, uh, and so
it's a.
It's a psychomotor system, soit's a developmental character
structure system, so it's basedon understanding.
Uh, they have seven characterstructures that they go through,
and in each character structurethere's there's developmental
(42:53):
tasks that are, uh, that we'resupposed to accomplish at
different ages, and what they dois they look at the coupling
dynamics between thosedevelopmental tasks and the
motor processes that we're we'regetting into, uh, while we're
doing them yes and from therethey then have what they call
the ego functions, which arethings like boundaries,
(43:15):
grounding, centering,interpersonal skills, things
like that right, positioning,right that then are in each one
of the character structures.
We have to go back and relearnhow to do them in that character
structure.
So, yeah, so, for instance, oneof the character structures,
the first character structure isexistence.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Okay, right.
So yeah, the firstdevelopmental task is to exist.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Right, that's the challenge, okay, and in fact it
is for a lot of people, right?
A lot of people like you know, Ihave a client recently who we
were talking about this and like, yeah, it's like I don't fully
exist yet and I'm like, yeah,you haven't completed all the
developmental tasks here yet.
So the first developmental taskis existence.
So, in existence, you have tobe able to center yourself in
(44:02):
existence, you have to be ableto ground yourself in existence,
you have to position yourselfas someone who exists.
Right, all those things exist.
All those character structures,all those developmental things
have to be done in thatcharacter.
And then you come into need,like, okay, now I have to be
able to center myself in myneeds.
I have to be able to, like,ground myself in my needs.
I have to be able to createboundaries in my needs, okay,
(44:23):
and then we're coming toautonomy, and then so and so on
and so forth.
Right, so you have to.
The part of the brilliance ofthe body dynamic system is you
get to be able to go in andreally identify which character
structure and which ego functionis lacking in each of them and
then be able to do a reallypotentially focused, uh,
therapeutic intervention basedon that that's awesome, a cool
(44:46):
map to identify.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yeah, this yeah, oh cool yeah it's a it's in fact.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
They like, they do a thing called body mapping, which
is where they go through andthey, they test the tissues of
the body, they test the musclesof the body in order to
determine if they're hypo orhyper.
Uh, and that's going todetermine part of what's going
on with the ego functions orcharacter structures.
That's part of their diagnosticsystem is to use the actual
tension in this, in the system,in the body, um, and so, yeah,
(45:16):
so this is actually a model that, from from my understanding, uh
, peter levine actually went andstudied, um, and he did the
program, and so there actuallyis a number of things in in.
You know, I did, I did somaticexperiencing training first and
then I went and did bodydynamics.
Now I'm coming back andassisting in somatic
experiencing trainings again,and then there's a whole lot of
things I'm like oh, that's,that's from, that's from them,
(45:39):
that's when the body dynamicsfolks that we just kind of
borrowed into the system, um, ofcourse, there's no like
trademark on on these things,right, but right um, there's
certain things that definitely,like you know, for instance,
when we, in somatic,experiencing, when we do, uh,
the boundary exercise, where wepush, yeah right and then, like
one of the common uh kind ofcues is make sure you push all
the way so that your, yourhyperextents, your triceps, are
(46:00):
fully engaged.
Right, that's directly bodydynamics.
Uh, that's a body dynamics umintervention and the reasoning
behind it is actually in bodydynamics, um so, but it's also
based on tracking the system,tracking the body, identifying
these kinds of places wherepeople are holding in their
(46:21):
bodies different content, andhelping to rework it.
One of the brilliant thingsabout the system was the focus
or the understanding or theinclusion of the hypotonic
states.
Was the focus or theunderstanding of the inclusion
of the hypotonic states?
So, you know, and if you lookat things like like rolfing,
structure integration or youknow which is one of the
(46:42):
modalities I've studied, but I'mnot not a certified rolfer you
know a lot of what that looks atis like, where there's tension
in the body and trying to breakit open.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
So we would say from a body dynamics perspective is
well, where the tension is, iswhere there's hypertonicity in
the system, is where the body'shad to over-resource itself.
So what?
We?
We don't necessarily want tobreak that open, because it's
doing something, it's doing ajob.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
And, and so this is then brings up why a lot of
times the cathartic model ofpsychotherapy doesn't work
necessarily very well right Isthat you're breaking open the
system where it's holding, butyou're not resourcing it where
it's not.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Right, right, it was there for a reason.
It's there for a reason, yeah,yeah, and, and you know what I?
Speaker 2 (47:21):
see so often my clients, even just folks come in
for for massage, right?
It's like, yeah, this is likemy shoulder pain.
It's always there and we relaxit out and then they come back
next week with the same shoulderpain because none of their
patterns underlying it, None ofthe reasons why they need that
shoulder pain have changed, andso the tensional system still
just recreates it via its ownenergy, rather than to release
(47:42):
the energy temporarily.
But the body just recreates it.
So if, but if instead you cancome in, you can find where in
the body it's under resresourcedor where in the ego functions
they're under-resourced, thenyou can start to develop the
skills around that and then theydon't need the hypertonicity
somewhere else and the body willoften let go of where it's been
(48:03):
over-resourced as a result ofthat.
So you know, for instance, likeif someone has a lot of trouble
centering themselves, that mayshow up as hyper boundaries.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Interesting yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Right, right.
Because, like well, I keepgetting knocked off my center
and I'm not very good at gettingback to it, so I'm just going
to put all these walls up sonothing can get in to touch me
Totally.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
So I'm not ever pushed Totally.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
But you can't help that person by giving them more
boundaries.
You help them by or by breakingtheir boundaries.
You help them by helping themto center right and teaching
them the developmental task ofcentering in their bodies.
And then they're like, oh yeah,now I don't need these
boundaries as much, right or Idon't need hyper boundaries as
much, and so in in body dynamicswe look at how that couples to
(48:52):
the body and how we can actuallyuse the body as a tool to help
develop centering or whateverthe ego function is Right.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
I feel so hopeful as you're sharing all of this.
I think I think one of thethings in my own personal
healing journey it's it's likeone thing carries me so far and
then I'll need a differentmodality, and it's not because
one's bad, it's just like I needa different angle, perhaps, or
(49:24):
yeah, so, as you're talking likeyeah okay, I have a better idea
of what I need moving forward.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
I actually think the somatic experiencing model and
the psychomotor model from bodydynamics are natural allies.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Next time when we're together and we're assisting,
I'm going to be bugging the crapout of you to tell me the body
dynamics, things during thetraining.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
I didn't actually finish their professional
training.
I've done parts of theirprofessional training, but I
haven't completed it.
Um, so I'm not a full bodydynamics practitioner.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Um does that have a certificate as well?
Speaker 2 (50:04):
like, kind of like okay yeah, yeah, their, their
system.
It takes a lot longer to finishtheir their training than it
does se.
Um, I think they have a totalof well, they have the.
They have a year of afoundation training and then the
, which is a year.
I think it's 27 days for theyear the first year and then for
the professional trainingthere's 75 days of additional
(50:26):
training.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
So the time you're done.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
It's a four-year program and over 100 days in
those four years, right, yeah,so it's extensive training.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Right, it always makes sense because of what you
need to learn to you know, be, Idon't know.
I guess the word that comes tomind is a congruent healer.
Yeah, is a congruent healer.
(50:57):
So you need that kind ofthorough training.
But it is also frustratingbecause of the privilege it
takes to get that andopportunity and, yeah, because
everyone needs this shit.
Let's just be real.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah well, and and yeah, part of part of the thing
with with the biodynamics, rightis it's a developmental
psychomotor program, right?
So it's really it's they dohave, they do have trauma
training, they do have a modelfor working with trauma directly
.
Uh, but the primary thing ofbody dynamics is working with
developmental resourcing andtrying to get people skilled up,
rather than a model of of youknow, rather than, rather than a
(51:31):
shock trauma model, which iswhat SC primarily is Right and
it can be used for other thingstoo, right.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Um to lessen that at all.
Uh, but the tools around SC areprimarily around their, their,
their affect regulation tools ornervous system regulation tools
to help people to encounter, um, their trauma in ways that are
skillful and successful.
And the tools in body dynamicsare around doing the same thing,
around being able to encounterand challenge developmental
(52:00):
resources that have not beendeveloped.
And then those two build intoeach other, of course, because
if I don't have the, you knowpart of what may make me more
liable to suffer a shock.
Trauma is missing developmentalresources.
Absolutely so if I can build upthe resources of my clients or
(52:21):
build up the resilience inmyself, then that is making me
more capable of addressingtrauma in my body and addressing
trauma that may come in thefuture.
Yeah, so that model has reallyhelped me to see that sometimes
the place to start with myclients isn't trauma at all, and
that often goes further thanactually working with the trauma
(52:42):
directly.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
That's.
I mean it makes meautomatically think of the
counter, counter vortex andorienting to the positive, like
we did originally when westarted today before recording.
But yeah, yeah, absolutely yeahgo ahead, please, no, no, yeah,
I've talked after your turnwell, I was just gonna say how
(53:06):
honestly touched I am by thisconversation and um so glad that
you're in our healing world andnow they're doing this like
truly it's.
My heart feels really tender andhopeful, yeah thank you so much
and because I get to see you sopersonally a few weeks away I
(53:30):
know, know, I'm so excited.
Yeah, so one of the things aswe close up is that I like to
offer people is like where theycan find you if they want to
know more about Kelly.
Where can they look that kindof stuff?
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah, so probably the easiest place is my website,
which I have to bring up myselfbecause it's it's a long URL and
I always forget all the partsof it.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
So if you go to wwwshaweastasianmedicinecom so
it's my last name,eastasianmedicineeastasianmedic
medicine, all one wordcom youcan find my website and there I
am.
And that's you know that'scontact information.
People can email me, or you canemail it directly to the page
(54:23):
or they can contact me.
My phone number's on there andthen, yeah, I'm always.
You know, part of what I offerto clients is people just have
questions or want to chat.
I'm always happy to do thatwith people before they come in,
to make sure that I'm a personthat can really help them and,
if not, to help them, maybe findsomething they can.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
That's so sweet and important.
Yes, yeah, actually I know now,because the first time I had
asked you like what do you do?
I think it was at the lasttraining, as a matter of fact in
Portland, where you live.
It was like tricky.
The answer is complex, like aswe've laid out here today.
(55:02):
And so good news Now I knowexactly what I want and what I
hope to get from our appointment.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
So that's, great.
Yeah, that helps me to actuallygive you what you want Exactly.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
I'm like, yes, watch out world.
I'm feeling great, Okay, soagain, thank you so much for
taking the time to come on thispodcast.
I appreciate it more than youknow and I look forward to
seeing you in a few weeks.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Yeah, thank you so much.
It's been great to be here.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
Hey, bye, kelly.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Sneaky Powerful
Podcast.
My name is Allie Caparro andI'm so glad you're here.
Today's guest is my friend andcolleague, kelly Shaw.
Kelly is an acupuncturist,herbalist and somatic therapy
practitioner in Portland, oregon.
Clinically, he is focused ontrauma, co-regulating touch
(00:23):
therapy and the use of somaticdevelopmental methodologies.
He is also currently acounselor in training at
Northwestern University, wherehe is pursuing studies in
psychodynamic therapy.
My discussion with Kelly was someaningful to me personally and
professionally.
Our conversation gets morelovely the more we talk and I am
(00:47):
so deeply moved by Kelly's workand offerings to this world.
I really hope you enjoy thisepisode.
Hey Kelly, welcome to theSneaky Powerful Podcast.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Good.
Thank you very much for givingus the opportunity to come on.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, I'm really excited to see, as you said,
what we come up with and wherewe go with this conversation.
But how about?
I wanted to ask the firstquestion, which is tell me about
how you got into somaticexperiencing.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I don't know anything about your road to SE yeah,
Road into this, into this land,yeah Well, so I let me think
about that.
So I, you know, I graduatedfrom in CNM, what is now in UNM
as a you know.
As for my acupuncture degree,in 2013.
And then I started practicing in2015.
(01:45):
And very quickly I found that Ineeded more resources, more
tools to work with the clients Ihad.
So the very first thing I didis actually I went and I started
studying osteopathic modalities.
So I started studying cranialsacral therapy and visceral
manipulation and and craniopathyand started doing that both
with, like you know, variousinstitutes that teach those
(02:07):
things, then also startedworking with a mentor of mine,
uh, a woman of dr sheila murphy,who's now retired but had been
one of my professors uh at ncnmuh and was also someone who had
done a tremendous amount ofcraniopathy, cranial
psychotherapy, and also was asomatic body therapist, and so
(02:30):
she had actually studied asystem called body dynamics and
also had done, had workedthrough, a system called
psychosynthesis and had beenexposed to a lot of the early
folks in the body work world andthe somatic therapy world.
So she worked directly with,like Ron Kurtz from Hikomi.
(02:52):
Um, she actually did her bodydynamics training with Peter
Levine, uh, from somatic youknow, obviously the, the founder
of somatic experiencing uh hadworked with, you know, like Pat
you know, Pat Ogden had workedwith her directly, had worked
directly with Bessel van derKolk, like a lot of these folks
had worked with them directly,um so anyway.
So, having known her in gradschool, uh, and known what she
(03:15):
could do with her hands, that'swhat first inspired me to start
working with the cranial sacraltherapy and with, with
osteopathic modalities.
And then, very quickly, I foundthis thing in people's bodies
called trauma, and yeah, therewas.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I was excited.
I was like what's he gonna say?
Oh, trauma.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
And so people are.
You know, I had these reallypowerful experiences with people
on the table having thesereally big emotional releases,
and sometimes they seem likethey're positive catharsis kind
of experiences, and sometimesthey were not, or, you know,
they didn't have this kind ofdysregulated place and kind of a
place I would.
But now I've known what I'd callas reenactment rather than as
integration or release, or andso, from that then I was, I
(04:04):
decided that if I was going tocontinue that kind of work, I
needed to get more resources inhow to deal with trauma and how
to deal with the nervous systemdirectly, and so that led me to
working.
You know, I read, uh, the firstbook I read by peter levine was
in an unspoken voice, um, andyou know I was like, yes, this
is what I, this is what I needto help my clients, um, and so
(04:26):
then, yeah, so they went and didthe training, um, and then
continued after that with doingtouch work, training with Kathy
Kane and Steve Terrell, um, andthen more work with Steve
Terrell, and have done a ton ofother body work and touch work
therapy as well to add onto that.
Um, the interesting thing isnow, in my practice I primarily
somatic experiencing and andsomatic experiencing touch work,
(04:46):
but less and less of theosteopathic work directly um,
because I find that it can betoo um, too cathartic for folks,
that people can have too muchcome out from it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So, yeah, so you just said about, like, let me think,
let me be realistic like 300things that I want to follow up
on.
Okay, that's not realistic, butwow, um, so exciting to talk
about all of this.
Uh, let's go.
There was immediately aquestion when you said that you
(05:17):
had gotten your acupuncturedegree and you decided you
needed more resources.
And that's when you sought outthe osteopath kind of
information and I was thinking,what did you see like doing
acupuncture?
That you thought, oh yeah, Ineed more resources.
I'm super curious because Ilove, love, love acupuncture and
(05:39):
I'm wondering what you saw.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, totally, a lot of it was again because of
experience I'd had in gradschool with.
Yeah, totally, um, I mean, alot of it was again, you know,
because of experience I'd had ingrad school with with my mentor
, dr Sheila Murphy.
Uh, you know, I had theseexperiences where I'd be working
with people in acupuncture andbe like, oh, this looks like so
it's like one of those thingsthat she used to talk about,
right, either it'd be like akind of emotional holding
pattern in the body or, um,something that's going on with.
(06:02):
Like this seems like thecranium might be twisted a
little bit.
Or I did a lot of a lot of myclients have been folks with,
like, whiplash injuries and youknow cause.
In my practice I work with both,like you know, physical
ailments directly people'sshoulder pain, neck pain you
know all the pains and then alsowith you know, psycho-emotional
conditions that folks deal withall the time too, and so you
(06:25):
know there's pretty quickly is,you know, clear that there's a
an interrelationship betweenthose two in my practice and one
part of it was reaching it andone part of it wasn't, and so
I'd had just enough experiencefrom working with with my mentor
that I could tell that there'sthis like edge of something
there that like, yeah, I could,I could stick a needle in this,
but also it seems like there'sthis like edge of something
there that like, yeah, I could,I could stick a needle in this,
(06:45):
but also it seemed like there'sthere's something I want to do
here with the body and somethingthat this, these people needed
that wasn't quite beingsatisfied by the acupuncture I
was doing.
Um, and so in you know, I'ddone body work training while I
was in school, uh, and so I hadpretty good hands.
I had done palpation work withwith Dr Murphy again and done,
(07:07):
uh, you know, two years of ofshatsu training with one of my
other teachers there, uh, dr JimCleaver Um, and so I had really
good hands, could also feelthat things were happening in
people's bodies that I neededmore information for as well.
Um, and you know, there's kindof a difference too.
In the traditional, traditionalmodel for Chinese medicine you
(07:29):
learn body work first and then,after a number of years, you
come and you learn to doacupuncture after that.
So the American model in mostschools inverts that, and so
partially what I at that time Iwas also looking at was that I
knew I needed to go and get morebody work skills and more hand
skills to be able to eventuallydevelop the kind of acupuncture
(07:49):
skills that I was looking for atthat time.
So those things all kind ofdovetailed together really
nicely, along with theexperience of what my clients
were having.
That you know it wasn't.
You know there's somethingthere I needed to touch but
couldn quite get to um with theneedles alone.
I needed other skills tocontinue that yeah and and part
(08:10):
of it was kind of the, the, youknow the mental, emotional and
the kind of traumatic or or nowalso developmental things that
were underlying folks.
Yeah, I knew needed to benourished or touched in some way
, contacted in some way in orderto be resolved, and I was also
(08:30):
hungry to find a place to helpmy clients with that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, I'm curious.
I know that I'm going to, atsome point, have an appointment
with you but I'm curious what itmight look like.
I've had acupuncture andcupping, but I'm trying to think
of what it would look like tocombine any of the body work.
(08:53):
Or do you combine the SE withthe acupuncture?
What would an appointment?
I guess there's not a typicalappointment with you, but what
would a typical appointment, ifyou can quantify it at all?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
They look.
I can't really quantify it, butI can try and give it a.
I can try a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yes, you go, kelly.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
You know the the range of what people come to see
me for.
I have a big enough tool basketthat people can come for a lot
of different stuff, and you knowa lot of my work now looks like
it's just didactic work whereI'm like, or traditional SC,
where I'm just talking to theclient, right, Um, and you know
doing work like that, where itcan also look like I'm doing
(09:35):
deep tissue or myofascialrelease or, um, you know that
kind of really intense bodyintervention, kind of therapy.
Or it can look like osteopathicwork, where I'm, you know,
having five grams of pressureless on someone and you know
manipulating tissues that way,or manipulating rhythms in the
body that way.
Or it can look like me justholding someone's kidneys, um,
(09:57):
and all of those things can beinter interrelated in the
treatment room, right, or youknow?
Or with traditional acupuncturetoo, or traditional herbs.
It really depends on what'sgoing on with the person and
kind of where where ourrelationship meets
therapeutically in the room, andso there's also what's also
(10:18):
true is I have a lot of skillsthat a lot of other
practitioners don't have, and soif someone has an osteopath in
their, their team of people, I'mprobably not going to do that
for them, cause I'm going to tryand focus on the things that I
have that they don't have fromother people in their care team.
Got, it Got it, and so the theirony of that is I don't
actually do that muchacupuncture anymore, right,
(10:40):
because the truth is is likepeople come in to see me and
they're like, well, here's allthe stuff I got going on, I want
acupuncture.
I'm like, great, well, let medo all those other things.
And you know, go go down theroad to the community
acupuncture place and getacupuncture for $25.
Yeah, and then come back to meand we'll like, let me use the
other skills I have to help youin these other ways now.
But acupuncture with a lot ofclients, um, you know again,
(11:03):
still depend what's going on Umand it.
You know I have done the thingwhere I've combined SE and
acupuncture, where the firsthalf of the session will be SE
and the second half of thesession will be acupuncture, um,
and I've seen really goodresults with that as an example.
Right, you know, where you kindof deal with some stuff, get,
get the nervous system, you knowup and juicy a little bit, um.
You know up and juicy a littlebit, um, especially folks who
(11:23):
have developmental stuff wherethey kind of struggle to get
regulated on their own, yeah, uh, where you can kind of go into
the content a little bit becauseyou're not spending the whole
hour there.
You spend a little bit of timegetting the contact into the
juiciness and then let theneedles regulate them.
Wow, right, so then, becausetheir system can't necessarily
self-regulate yet it totally,you can put the needles in and
(11:44):
let the needles do the job ofgiving them that that deep
regulation from in their nervoussystem right uh, and then they
don't have to do anything andyou don't have to do anything.
They get a break from contact.
So if there's attachment stuffor yeah, you know all that, they
can have that break where theycan just sit and integrate with
their feeling, while they'realso being nourished,
potentially by the by that whenyou, when you mentioned that
(12:06):
about the needles let theneedles regulate.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
It's like my body heard that and remembered the
last time I got acupuncture andI was like, oh, I'm melting
needles, that's right it'slovely, right, you know oh my
gosh, so lovely.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I love it so much yeah yeah, and it's such a
powerful that that's one of thethings I love about acupuncture
that does it is a very powerfulmodulator of state.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
And you can move people out of a state that
they're otherwise stuck in Right.
And the same thing's true ofthe body work I do where you
know.
Now, if someone can't regulate,I'm like nine times out of 10,
I'll just put them on the tableand do body work with them.
That I know is going to beregulating.
And you know they get up offthe table and they're like I
don't, I don't know whathappened.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
It just feels so different to worry about it, but
you feel better.
That's the important part,right.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And so, yeah, so like a typical session with me can
look like a lot of things.
I have this kind of I have thiskind of thing I do with my
clients now, which is, you know,I kind of I often, often the
struggle for me when people comein is I don't know what it is
that they expect or what theirexpectations are for treatment.
Right, and because I've done,I've done enough things.
(13:18):
sometimes I'm like, well, Idon't know if this person wants
me to do you know A or Z orright or right, anything between
so this little trick that I donow, which is I look to see who
referred them and I think, oh,what does that person think I do
?
That's funny, and and oftenthat's what they want back from
me, like, oh yeah, I heard youdo this and I'm like oh yeah,
okay, I do that, I'll do that,we're gonna do that today and
(13:43):
then that's funny, that's a goodidea and then go from there
right, Based on whatever theirexperience is Right.
So, and then again, you know,based on what their needs are
and kind of where they need tobe.
And and you know, I, I alsokind of described to my clients
often as kind of Venn diagram ofof three things the first, the
first circle, is what, what mytool sets are and what I'm
(14:04):
capable of doing, Right.
And the second circle then isgoing to be what my client needs
, Okay.
And then the third circle isgoing to be what can they
receive and how can they receiveit oh, that's an important
question that I don't think it'sasked.
(14:24):
Yeah, yeah and so you say itagain I'm right, I'm taking
notes.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
What can you say?
What can they receive?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
yeah, what can they receive and how?
So the the first circle againis like what, what my tool set
is and what I can give them, andthen the second set being what
their needs are and the thirdset being what they can receive
or what their capacity for forreceiving is, and and where we
ideally I'm going to be workingin the like that little tiny
(14:54):
space where all of those thingsintersect to be working in the
like that little tiny spacewhere all of those things
intersect.
Yeah, and, and part of that toois recognizing that they may
have needs.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
but they can't receive them yet.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Totally Right.
And so you know, even withtouch therapy, when I'm doing
touch work with people, there'speople who may need a very
gentle approach to their body,but they may not be able to
receive gentle contact yet itmay not feel safe for them yet,
or vice versa.
Someone may need really deeptissue contact, right when it's
(15:24):
like okay, like I got to getthrough your axilla down
underneath your rib cage, downto where your subscapularis is,
and it's going to hurt butyou're going to move.
What's my?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
axilla.
The axilla is the armpit.
So wow, so you're going to pushinto that and go through those
layers yeah, and it's going tohurt.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And so then I have to be able to to kind of judge can
this person receive thiscontact or not?
And then, if they can't, can Ihelp them to receive it or get
their nervous system to a placewhere it can receive it safely,
and then can I actually do thework so I can then, you know,
like in that case, like maybefree up their shoulder mobility,
right, and then all of thatwould still be in the context of
(16:10):
working with what SE has taughtme, because I'm going to be
looking at the nervous system tosee if the nervous system is
overreacting or underreacting tocontact, like over bracing or
under bracing.
Is it going, are they going tocollapse?
Are they?
Are they bracing too much?
Right, you know?
And how do we work with thosethings in order to be able to
get my clients to a place wherethey can receive the contact
(16:32):
that they actually need, andthat may be again, that's
another question that brings inthings like attachment, as well
as trauma, history anddevelopmental picture and all of
those things, and includingjust social history of people.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
So how did you learn about in the midst of learning
all of this other stuff?
How did you learn about thethings like attachment and
developmental trauma and thingslike that in your own, in your
spare time?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I did, or less.
Actually, I have a very largewall of books at home that helps
a lot.
Again, most, a lot of thosethings came because, you know,
as I started studying traumatherapy and and somatic therapy
in general, which somatictherapy has always been, you
know, the big, wide umbrella ofsomatics is really my passion in
(17:27):
what I do, and SE andacupuncture and the body work I
do are all aspects underneaththat big umbrella of just I love
working with the body and themagic of just I love working
with the body, and the magic ofwhat happens when you work with
the body.
Um, you know, so as as I wasjust working those realms, it's
kind of impossible not to runinto attachment.
(17:47):
And if you're paying attentionand so you've got a client on
the table who you know like asan example, uh, just doing like
the kidney work where all you'redoing is holding the kidneys
and holding intention forsupporting the person, it's a
really passive modality but it'svery powerful and you know, and
it's a very right brain toright brain kind of modality.
(18:07):
But right away I have aquestion.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Would you be willing?
Would you say that it's sneakypowerful.
I would say it's sneakypowerful I did it.
I did it.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
We might have to edit that out um, so, even when
you're just holding the kidneyright, uh, so then all this, all
these attachment dynamics comeup why the kidney, is that a?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
is that a tcm thing or is that no, actually the
kidney, is that a TCM thing, oris that?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
No, actually the kidney Well, so you can do it
from a TCM perspective, but thework that I've learned that from
is actually from Kathy Kane andSteve Terrell's work on somatic
resilience and regulation.
And I learned other work aroundthe kidneys from osteopathy,
again for visceral manipulationand Chinese medicine.
You know Chinese medicine.
The kidneys are the place wherewe tend to hold fear.
(18:58):
Fear is the emotion of thekidneys.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Oh, that makes me feel teary.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Okay.
And then attachment and fear,obviously so connected deeply.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Absolutely, and then yeah, and so of course you know
when you're working with thekidneys too, there's the
adrenals on top of them, whichare our big part of our stress
and cortisol system.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Right, Right, right.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So these are mediators of of our bodies in
big ways, and the kidneysthemselves help to mediate our
blood pressure, um, as well asthe adrenals on top of them.
So so these are places where wecan go to have that kind of
deep contact, Um.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
And so, when you know how people take in my hand,
just being present there isreally important, and I'm trying
to understand that like yeah,what would you notice if
someone's really able to like,for example, receive your
holding as opposed to something,and I get it?
This is hard to articulate, Iunderstand that, but if you're
(19:56):
willing, I would love to justknow as much as you can.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, so like, so, like one example of someone
who's really able to take incontact, for instance, might be,
that I, you know, I come incontact with their kidney and
they sink into my hand and theirwhole nervous system gets quiet
and deep yes, okay yeah, yeah,and so, and you can.
They look like they're a babygoing to sleep.
(20:20):
Yep right, the nervous systemcalms down.
It doesn't go into collapse,though there's a.
There's a difference there,right right, they're not going
to freeze and they're not goinginto collapse, they're not going
to association, they're,they're being held, and so their
nervous system is calming downand coming down because it's
receiving some nutrients there,right?
So, and then another contextmaybe what you see is you put
(20:41):
your hands there and the wholenervous system ramps up.
So you see, like their breath goup, their heart rate goes up,
they might get hot in the face,right you know they might have.
One of the things you can feel,you can kind of palpate, is
fluid dynamics, so you can seethat you can feel the fluid
moving through the tissue moreum which is an aspect of the
(21:02):
heart rate going up Right.
Um uh, and they might pull awayfrom you a little bit right,
they might turn their head awayfrom you, or they might actually
roll a little bit right.
You might just get you know, Iget you know.
I pay a lot of attention towhat I'm feeling when I'm doing
this too, of course you mightjust get the sense that like
(21:22):
something doesn't feel right inthe contact right um, and so you
know, one of the things I'malways looking for when I'm
doing any kind of touch work uh,which is, you know, would be
included of this kind of touchwork, right is I'm looking to
see if the body is consenting tothe contact or not.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
And you know, a lot of times people will orally,
they'll tell you, they'll saylike yeah, do the thing.
They'll say yes, 100%.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
But the thing I'm looking for is I need to have
the oral permission, the oralconsent and the physical consent
from the body in order to beable to do the kind of work that
I do.
And if the body doesn't giveconsent, then I'm going to start
working with them around bodyconsent and helping them to step
into having body consent tothem, like working with that as
(22:14):
a dynamic and so like, forinstance, instance, I can think
of one client um won't givetheir name, obviously uh but you
know years ago who is here, uh,in my you know my room here in
portland, and she had come infor some somatic body work, uh,
and as soon as I put my hands onher back, her whole system came
into a like a sympatheticresponse and she was breathing
(22:38):
hard and she was bracing on thetable and like, not looking at
me, just looking, you know, deadahead on the table, and I was
like what's happening for youright now?
Right, and we're able to begina conversation that backed up
and let her recognize that herbody wasn't consenting and she
was a body worker too.
And so she was like, well, I'msupposed to let you do this.
(23:01):
I'm like, no, you're not,actually, you need to, not let
me do this.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Honor the no right.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Honor the no and let the body have the no, and so, as
a result of that conversation,we then spent some time where we
were working with contact backand forth to find out what
contact was safe for her body toreceive and what contact wasn't
safe for her body to receive.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
What a beautiful exploration.
I am so excited by what you'retalking about yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
So so then we, you know, if we go back to that Venn
diagram, then we're actuallyworking with where can she
receive and expanding thatcapacity within, again, an
attached relationship because,she gets to have an experience
of being with somebody whoactually who's paying attention
to her body in a way that'scaring but also really attuned
to her nervous system and reallytuned to what her system really
needs, rather than a bodythat's being medicalized it's so
(24:01):
beautiful because I'm thinkingone of the things.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
So I have some trauma in my own past and sexual abuse
is part of that trauma, and Iwas thinking how there's such a
um, a common like outward, in umdescription of like, have
boundaries, have boundaries,like people telling me, have
boundaries, and it's socomplicated, when being
(24:25):
boundaryless helped me survivecertain situations.
Not, it wasn't even a choice.
You know, you know how thatgoes, you know trauma.
So.
So when you describe this, I'mthinking, oh, that's how I could
find places where I can haveboundaries and then extend that
to other places, like thisbeautiful exploration of where
(24:46):
can I receive and then buildingon into where, um, I need to be
able to receive or want toreceive, or want to protect,
like, like.
It just feels so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, I don't even know if that made sense, but it
made sense totally to me, sohopefully someone will get it
out there.
Yeah Well, and that's more ofthe process, right?
It's like the first thing islike helping people to recognize
that they can say no to me eventhough they need to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yes, exactly, exactly , exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
And then recognizing that's, you know, and especially
because I'm often a dynamicwhere I'm a male practitioner
working on often female bodies,right, but this is true of me
working as a male practitioneron male bodies too.
But often, you know, there'sjust more women who come to see
alternative medicinepractitioners than men.
So as a result of that, most ofmy clientele are women, and so
there's always going to be thatdynamic of having a male body
(25:36):
working on a female body whenthat's happening in the room,
and so so many women have had toconsent to things that they
didn't actually consent to, andalso so many women's bodies,
much more than men's bodies havebeen medicalized in ways that
men's bodies don't often getRight, and so they've had to
consent to medical treatmentthat they didn't really want to
receive or they didn't have anysupport around receiving is that
(26:00):
what you mean by medicalizedlike, or maybe you could explain
that to me?
Well, I mean, like you know, uh, you know, you know how, how
often you have to go in for anannual checkup with your
gynecologist yeah, right right,right, men don't do that right
right how much, uh know how muchare women's bodies medicalized
around birth control like men'sbodies or not.
(26:23):
You know, there's all these waysin which women's bodies have
like receive medicalinterventions for more often yes
, and that makes often are likeliterally touching their bodies,
that men don't receive.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
And so there's a.
There's a way in which thefemale body is more medicalized
than the male body and womenalso, look, you know, are far
more likely to go looking forcare than men.
Are, right, it's part of thegender dynamic that men often
don't like, neglect their bodiesand don't look for care that
they could need.
So they could ask, they kind ofchoose a little more.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but in general terms I get that,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
And so.
So then you know, women come inwho have often had very
medicalized bodies and then, so,then, and that conditions them
to saying yes in a medicalcontext, absolutely, absolutely
Right, and then.
So part of the trauma work isactually working back through
those past contacts that may not, you know, may have been quote,
unquote, consensual or required, but it doesn't mean that their
(27:24):
nervous system got the supportthat it needed while they're
having them Right.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
And it doesn't mean that that.
It certainly doesn't mean thatbecause they've had more touch
like that, the touch is moreneutral.
In fact, it means that touchlike that could already be more,
more charged absolutely, soabsolutely working with the body
and consent and be able to, topay attention.
The nervous system gives me anopportunity to be able to, to
(27:50):
notice that and bring it toawareness in the room in a way
that hopefully and like I've hadmany good experiences with this
in the room where then helpspeople to come to a place of
being able to consent or not tocontact yeah and then we can
start to play that, what youwere just describing earlier
around like, yeah, where,where's contact work?
where does it not?
What kind of contact?
(28:12):
How close does the contact needto be or not be?
And then, and then that bringsin all those aspects of
attachment and developmental yes, you know um processes that are
super important for being ableto hopefully bring about a
repair in that kind of contactwith people that's funny, that's
the word I just wrote down wasreparative, like it could be.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
It has potential.
This kind of work has potentialfor being so reparative.
And there's actually anotherinteresting perspective that I
wanted to share, if that's okay,I wanted the.
So one of the things with sexualabuse is this is the kind of
touch like there's a lot of inmy experience I'm working with
(28:56):
patients and clients.
Like there's a lot of in myexperience in working with
patients and clients, there's alot of confusion because it's
like attention and care might beneeded, but not that type of
attention and care, right.
And so there's often like this,this bind, this double bind or
this complexity to it.
Like I'm so scared and alone.
(29:17):
This is better than nothing,which I hope that comes across
how I mean it when I say it.
But I it's so beautiful tothink of how any sexual abuse
survivor, having the opportunityto say that's not the kind of
touch that I need and you're notgoing to leave, you're going to
(29:37):
help me figure out a safe wayto experience this touch, you're
going to still care for mewithin this appointment.
Like that's freaking amazing,like there's no other way to say
it Honestly.
Kind of lose my words with that,because it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
And that's exactly right that people, in many
contexts, you know people aretrying to get, you know, touch
work done of any kind, like well, we know, I don't want this and
it's like, ok, well then,session's over.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
And there's not the chance for them to have anyone
to really work with them on whatthat's like right uh, right, um
, and so that to repair it doesrequire that someone be able to
work with them, talk with them,be in relationship with them
around it yeah, exactly right,yeah, I'm not gonna leave you
because you said, no, I'm notgonna.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And, in fact, what I'm going to try and do is try
and find the kind of contactwhich is the like the most
comfortable for you.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And so that contact may be me having no like, might
be being very physically closebut not physically touching me,
standing on the other side ofthe room.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Right, that makes sense, yeah Right.
Helping them find the yes, yesand yeah, giving them the space,
helping a person find their yesso important.
And then there's congruence,right, which we know is so
healing, like the inside matchesnot only the outside, but even
the layers between the outsideand the inside, the tissues and
(31:09):
the yeah, yep, oh, yep, oh, thisis so tender.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
That's part of what I think happens right Is because
they've had to, or you know they, whether they've had to or not,
they've chosen a consent tocontact that they don't really
want to consent to.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yes, that's a, that's a discongruence between the
insides and outsides Right.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
And then the second part of it is that I have to be
congruent, because if I'm therebeing like, oh, it's okay that
you don't want me to touch you,but really, the inside of me is
not.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
They're going to feel that, yeah, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Right.
So then part of the navigationoften happens is me helping them
to recognize that I'm reallyokay, like if they don't want me
to touch them, that does notlike, that doesn't hurt my
feelings, it doesn't destabilizeme, it doesn't upset me.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
They're totally allowed to have the boundary
that's real for them and genuinefor them.
So you said destabilize, andreferring to yourself, and
actually that was a question Ihad early on when we were
talking, and I'm curious aboutit again what do you do?
Or there's two questions kindof coming in at the same time,
(32:20):
but one of them is what do youdo to stabilize, stay stable?
That's one of the questions.
But the other question is kindof a bigger question about, like
your, a little bit of yourhistory, who you are and, um,
were you ever like dysregulated?
And so you pursued this careerto seek regulation like the rest
(32:42):
of us?
yeah, um, those are very bigquestions, I know, and maybe we
could do round two on thepodcast, so you can just pick
the easier of the two.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, maybe To maybe answer the question about how do
I stay stable.
Yeah, so in the room there's alot of doing my own somatic work
with myself.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Love this.
Yes, doing my own somatic workwith myself.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
So, yes, tracking myself, tracking my breath,
tracking sensation, my body,noticing the emotion as it comes
up, Um, and you know, needinglike, if I need to ground or
center, doing that, um, and thenalso really just being okay
with my own emotional response,whatever it is, um, so you know,
I think a lot of you know.
(33:33):
Again, coming back to my, youknow the woman I owe so much to
my mentor, dr sheila murphy.
Um, you know, part of what shereally ingrained in me over the
years I worked with her, uh, wasthe importance of practitioner
cultivation and working on myown stuff, and so if something's
really triggering to me in theroom, it's a really good idea to
(33:53):
go figure out what that's aboutand work with it, and so that's
helped me to be able to staystable with folks in a lot of
different kinds of responses.
And also really kind of separatefrom who I am from their
response.
Whatever it is, that really hasnothing to do with me, it's
their response Right To avoidthat counter transference or
(34:16):
transference yeah, that's right,yeah, and then and then, when
it does happen, to use it as alever actually, if it possible,
right?
So you know, I do a lot of thatkind of self-care in the room
and you know one of the thingswhen, when I, you know,
sometimes I mentor folks insomatics, and you know, of
course, one of the questionsthat comes up when you're
(34:37):
mentoring people a lot is likehow do you make it safe for
other people to do their traumawork, how do you make it safe in
the room for them to do that?
And the number one thing, in myopinion, is that we have to
make sure that it's safe for youto be in the room first, and so
that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
You might have tell me more about that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So if you know, if, if I'm in the, you know if I'm
in the room with someone thatscares the hell out of me, the
first thing I need to do is getsafe so that my system is
regulated.
Or if they're telling me a storyabout something that scares the
hell out of me then I need tofigure out how to take care of
myself before I ever worry aboutregulating them or taking care
of them.
And so to me, the mostimportant person in the room to
(35:16):
be taken care of first is thepractitioner taking care of
themselves, and then, if they'reresourced, then they have the
opportunity to provide thoseresources for other people.
And so that's kind of what Imean by that right.
And so sometimes when I'm inthe room I am doing more
self-care than I am reallyexternally focused on my, my
clients, and it happens less andless as I get more and more
(35:39):
resourced, and you know.
But if something's really bigand powerful, then I'm going to
be, I'm going to be working withme and maintaining stability in
myself first, and, if nothingelse, part of what I'm doing
there you know unconsciously,subconsciously for them is I am
actually demonstrating them inmy body how they can regulate
themselves.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, right, right.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
But if I can't regulate it for myself, then
anything I do that's going to beintervention is going to be
incongruent.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
It's going to be incongruent for them and they're
going to like.
You know people as you know.
You know people with trauma arevery, very sensitive and will
smell that out.
Oh my gosh, in a minute,no-transcript horror stories
(36:58):
that people have.
That can be really rough.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
And so there's a balance for me in terms of
taking care of myself andstaying stable, between staying
stable in the room for theclient, but also being able to
feel and have my own authenticreaction to whatever it is.
And so I think for me, uh, likepeople have asked me, how do
you, how do you do this and not,uh, you know, not suffer a lot
(37:25):
of vicarious trauma.
For me that's kind of.
Actually, the trick is that Ifeel what I feel when I feel it
right, rather than waiting tofeel it later.
Right and uh, you know, and solong as that's an appropriate
emotion, then I will likely showit like share it with my client
right or allow myself to havethe external expression of that
(37:47):
emotion without it looks like,um, if it's something that's
inappropriate, that I'm notgoing to do that yeah, right but
you know, like you know, one ofmy clients, um, uh, you know,
you know he was talking aboutsome very, some very difficult
things in his family and as heleft, he said you know, you were
, you were really there with me,with that right, you cried with
(38:10):
me me with that right.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
You cried with me.
You're like, yeah, I was.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Oh, holly, that's so tender I can't wait for my
appointment gonna be tomorrownow, well, if you come down,
here.
I know I fly now, so you knowyou can come down anytime you
want, but so but that's actuallyfor me to be able to be, um
like, truly authentic in theroom with people actually allows
me to be more stable too thatmakes sense, letting it move
(38:45):
through you instead of, like,pocketing it away in some of
your tissue or muscle, or yeahright, that's, that's right.
Yeah, and and also because I'm,because I'm a body worker and
licensed as an acupuncturist,you know, I don't have the same
kinds of ethical uh orprofessional boundaries that
traditional mental healththerapists have.
Yes, yes, nor do I have thesame training.
Right, I don't have thattraining.
(39:06):
I have a different set oftraining, and my training allows
me to be, uh, emotionallypresent in a way that might be
unethical in a more traditionalpsychotherapy practice, and so I
take advantage of that.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, yeah Right.
So, yeah, such good stuff Isthat is the stability part of
your napping routine Will youtell us all about your napping.
I am in love with this.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah, maybe actually yes.
So, yeah, part of my self careroutine we talked about this
before we started recording isthat every, every day that I'm
in in the treatment room, I takea nap.
So I, you know, I'm verythankful that I, because I work
in private practice- I canstructure my day any way that I
want, and not everybody has thisopportunity.
(39:58):
It's a very, it's a massiveprivilege that I have this in
our modern world.
But I take a two hour lunchevery day and I go and get my
food.
Usually, you know, I'm all likeyou know, do charts, whatever,
and then while I'm eating, andthen I take a 20 to 30 minute
map every day that I'm in the inthe room, I take a nap and that
(40:19):
helps me tremendously to beable to be fresh and kind of,
you know, rinse out from my bodywhat was happening in the
earlier part of the day so I canbe present and awake and alive
for the second part of the day.
And yeah, I didn't used toalways do that and I would.
I would literally start fallingasleep on clients in the
afternoon.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
And so I?
I just learned that I can't dothat.
I have to do, I have to take mynaps, I have to take care of
myself, and that goes a longways towards my clients, me
being present in the room withmy clients which is what they
(41:01):
really need me to be.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
So exactly, yeah, you're kind of influencing my,
my work life.
I'm thinking of some things I'mgonna tweak, and change is just
from this beautifulconversation.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Well, I also have the I have the great privilege of,
also because I do body work.
I have a table in my room I cansleep on is that where you
sleep?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
I was thinking.
I was like, where are youtaking this nap?
But I have a table in my room Ican sleep on.
Is that where you sleep?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I was thinking I was like where are you taking?
Speaker 1 (41:16):
this nap.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Well, I have like you know now that, now that it's,
you know the fall has come andthe winter is coming right.
You know I have a, I have atable warmer and I've got big
blankets, like I can be verycozy.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, right, yeah, highly recommend.
Yes, I know I'm in a situationright now where I'm not allowed
to get paid to take a nap and wedisagree a lot with that.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Yeah, yeah, there, yeah as I've said to many of my
friends, there's a reason I workalone and for myself.
This is one of them.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
It's a good one it's a really good one, let's see.
So we have a few minutes leftand I am trying to decide what.
What area I wanted?
Oh, I know I so looking at mynose, I wanted to go back to
body dynamics for a minute I.
(42:06):
There's some real similaritiesbetween SE and body dynamics.
That accurate?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
okay, there is yes yeah, yeah, so body dynamics is
a.
You know, it's a system thatcomes out of denmark.
Uh, the primary founder of itwas my name of lisbeth marcher,
um, although you know there's afew other folks who are involved
too.
I think all together there'sabout don't quote me on this
exact number anybody, but Ithink there's about 13 people
(42:32):
who came together, uh and helpeddevelop the system, uh, and so
it's a.
It's a psychomotor system, soit's a developmental character
structure system, so it's basedon understanding.
Uh, they have seven characterstructures that they go through,
and in each character structurethere's there's developmental
(42:53):
tasks that are, uh, that we'resupposed to accomplish at
different ages, and what they dois they look at the coupling
dynamics between thosedevelopmental tasks and the
motor processes that we're we'regetting into, uh, while we're
doing them yes and from therethey then have what they call
the ego functions, which arethings like boundaries,
(43:15):
grounding, centering,interpersonal skills, things
like that right, positioning,right that then are in each one
of the character structures.
We have to go back and relearnhow to do them in that character
structure.
So, yeah, so, for instance, oneof the character structures,
the first character structure isexistence.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Okay, right.
So yeah, the firstdevelopmental task is to exist.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Right, that's the challenge, okay, and in fact it
is for a lot of people, right?
A lot of people like you know, Ihave a client recently who we
were talking about this and like, yeah, it's like I don't fully
exist yet and I'm like, yeah,you haven't completed all the
developmental tasks here yet.
So the first developmental taskis existence.
So, in existence, you have tobe able to center yourself in
(44:02):
existence, you have to be ableto ground yourself in existence,
you have to position yourselfas someone who exists.
Right, all those things exist.
All those character structures,all those developmental things
have to be done in thatcharacter.
And then you come into need,like, okay, now I have to be
able to center myself in myneeds.
I have to be able to, like,ground myself in my needs.
I have to be able to createboundaries in my needs, okay,
(44:23):
and then we're coming toautonomy, and then so and so on
and so forth.
Right, so you have to.
The part of the brilliance ofthe body dynamic system is you
get to be able to go in andreally identify which character
structure and which ego functionis lacking in each of them and
then be able to do a reallypotentially focused, uh,
therapeutic intervention basedon that that's awesome, a cool
(44:46):
map to identify.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yeah, this yeah, oh cool yeah it's a it's in fact.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
They like, they do a thing called body mapping, which
is where they go through andthey, they test the tissues of
the body, they test the musclesof the body in order to
determine if they're hypo orhyper.
Uh, and that's going todetermine part of what's going
on with the ego functions orcharacter structures.
That's part of their diagnosticsystem is to use the actual
tension in this, in the system,in the body, um, and so, yeah,
(45:16):
so this is actually a model that, from from my understanding, uh
, peter levine actually went andstudied, um, and he did the
program, and so there actuallyis a number of things in in.
You know, I did, I did somaticexperiencing training first and
then I went and did bodydynamics.
Now I'm coming back andassisting in somatic
experiencing trainings again,and then there's a whole lot of
things I'm like oh, that's,that's from, that's from them,
(45:39):
that's when the body dynamicsfolks that we just kind of
borrowed into the system, um, ofcourse, there's no like
trademark on on these things,right, but right um, there's
certain things that definitely,like you know, for instance,
when we, in somatic,experiencing, when we do, uh,
the boundary exercise, where wepush, yeah right and then, like
one of the common uh kind ofcues is make sure you push all
the way so that your, yourhyperextents, your triceps, are
(46:00):
fully engaged.
Right, that's directly bodydynamics.
Uh, that's a body dynamics umintervention and the reasoning
behind it is actually in bodydynamics, um so, but it's also
based on tracking the system,tracking the body, identifying
these kinds of places wherepeople are holding in their
(46:21):
bodies different content, andhelping to rework it.
One of the brilliant thingsabout the system was the focus
or the understanding or theinclusion of the hypotonic
states.
Was the focus or theunderstanding of the inclusion
of the hypotonic states?
So, you know, and if you lookat things like like rolfing,
structure integration or youknow which is one of the
(46:42):
modalities I've studied, but I'mnot not a certified rolfer you
know a lot of what that looks atis like, where there's tension
in the body and trying to breakit open.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
So we would say from a body dynamics perspective is
well, where the tension is, iswhere there's hypertonicity in
the system, is where the body'shad to over-resource itself.
So what?
We?
We don't necessarily want tobreak that open, because it's
doing something, it's doing ajob.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
And, and so this is then brings up why a lot of
times the cathartic model ofpsychotherapy doesn't work
necessarily very well right Isthat you're breaking open the
system where it's holding, butyou're not resourcing it where
it's not.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Right, right, it was there for a reason.
It's there for a reason, yeah,yeah, and, and you know what I?
Speaker 2 (47:21):
see so often my clients, even just folks come in
for for massage, right?
It's like, yeah, this is likemy shoulder pain.
It's always there and we relaxit out and then they come back
next week with the same shoulderpain because none of their
patterns underlying it, None ofthe reasons why they need that
shoulder pain have changed, andso the tensional system still
just recreates it via its ownenergy, rather than to release
(47:42):
the energy temporarily.
But the body just recreates it.
So if, but if instead you cancome in, you can find where in
the body it's under resresourcedor where in the ego functions
they're under-resourced, thenyou can start to develop the
skills around that and then theydon't need the hypertonicity
somewhere else and the body willoften let go of where it's been
(48:03):
over-resourced as a result ofthat.
So you know, for instance, likeif someone has a lot of trouble
centering themselves, that mayshow up as hyper boundaries.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Interesting yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Right, right.
Because, like well, I keepgetting knocked off my center
and I'm not very good at gettingback to it, so I'm just going
to put all these walls up sonothing can get in to touch me
Totally.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
So I'm not ever pushed Totally.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
But you can't help that person by giving them more
boundaries.
You help them by or by breakingtheir boundaries.
You help them by helping themto center right and teaching
them the developmental task ofcentering in their bodies.
And then they're like, oh yeah,now I don't need these
boundaries as much, right or Idon't need hyper boundaries as
much, and so in in body dynamicswe look at how that couples to
(48:52):
the body and how we can actuallyuse the body as a tool to help
develop centering or whateverthe ego function is Right.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
I feel so hopeful as you're sharing all of this.
I think I think one of thethings in my own personal
healing journey it's it's likeone thing carries me so far and
then I'll need a differentmodality, and it's not because
one's bad, it's just like I needa different angle, perhaps, or
(49:24):
yeah, so, as you're talking likeyeah okay, I have a better idea
of what I need moving forward.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
I actually think the somatic experiencing model and
the psychomotor model from bodydynamics are natural allies.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Next time when we're together and we're assisting,
I'm going to be bugging the crapout of you to tell me the body
dynamics, things during thetraining.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
I didn't actually finish their professional
training.
I've done parts of theirprofessional training, but I
haven't completed it.
Um, so I'm not a full bodydynamics practitioner.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Um does that have a certificate as well?
Speaker 2 (50:04):
like, kind of like okay yeah, yeah, their, their
system.
It takes a lot longer to finishtheir their training than it
does se.
Um, I think they have a totalof well, they have the.
They have a year of afoundation training and then the
, which is a year.
I think it's 27 days for theyear the first year and then for
the professional trainingthere's 75 days of additional
(50:26):
training.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
So the time you're done.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
It's a four-year program and over 100 days in
those four years, right, yeah,so it's extensive training.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Right, it always makes sense because of what you
need to learn to you know, be, Idon't know.
I guess the word that comes tomind is a congruent healer.
Yeah, is a congruent healer.
(50:57):
So you need that kind ofthorough training.
But it is also frustratingbecause of the privilege it
takes to get that andopportunity and, yeah, because
everyone needs this shit.
Let's just be real.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah well, and and yeah, part of part of the thing
with with the biodynamics, rightis it's a developmental
psychomotor program, right?
So it's really it's they dohave, they do have trauma
training, they do have a modelfor working with trauma directly
.
Uh, but the primary thing ofbody dynamics is working with
developmental resourcing andtrying to get people skilled up,
rather than a model of of youknow, rather than, rather than a
(51:31):
shock trauma model, which iswhat SC primarily is Right and
it can be used for other thingstoo, right.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Um to lessen that at all.
Uh, but the tools around SC areprimarily around their, their,
their affect regulation tools ornervous system regulation tools
to help people to encounter, um, their trauma in ways that are
skillful and successful.
And the tools in body dynamicsare around doing the same thing,
around being able to encounterand challenge developmental
(52:00):
resources that have not beendeveloped.
And then those two build intoeach other, of course, because
if I don't have the, you knowpart of what may make me more
liable to suffer a shock.
Trauma is missing developmentalresources.
Absolutely so if I can build upthe resources of my clients or
(52:21):
build up the resilience inmyself, then that is making me
more capable of addressingtrauma in my body and addressing
trauma that may come in thefuture.
Yeah, so that model has reallyhelped me to see that sometimes
the place to start with myclients isn't trauma at all, and
that often goes further thanactually working with the trauma
(52:42):
directly.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
That's.
I mean it makes meautomatically think of the
counter, counter vortex andorienting to the positive, like
we did originally when westarted today before recording.
But yeah, yeah, absolutely yeahgo ahead, please, no, no, yeah,
I've talked after your turnwell, I was just gonna say how
(53:06):
honestly touched I am by thisconversation and um so glad that
you're in our healing world andnow they're doing this like
truly it's.
My heart feels really tender andhopeful, yeah thank you so much
and because I get to see you sopersonally a few weeks away I
(53:30):
know, know, I'm so excited.
Yeah, so one of the things aswe close up is that I like to
offer people is like where theycan find you if they want to
know more about Kelly.
Where can they look that kindof stuff?
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah, so probably the easiest place is my website,
which I have to bring up myselfbecause it's it's a long URL and
I always forget all the partsof it.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
So if you go to wwwshaweastasianmedicinecom so
it's my last name,eastasianmedicineeastasianmedic
medicine, all one wordcom youcan find my website and there I
am.
And that's you know that'scontact information.
People can email me, or you canemail it directly to the page
(54:23):
or they can contact me.
My phone number's on there andthen, yeah, I'm always.
You know, part of what I offerto clients is people just have
questions or want to chat.
I'm always happy to do thatwith people before they come in,
to make sure that I'm a personthat can really help them and,
if not, to help them, maybe findsomething they can.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
That's so sweet and important.
Yes, yeah, actually I know now,because the first time I had
asked you like what do you do?
I think it was at the lasttraining, as a matter of fact in
Portland, where you live.
It was like tricky.
The answer is complex, like aswe've laid out here today.
(55:02):
And so good news Now I knowexactly what I want and what I
hope to get from our appointment.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
So that's, great.
Yeah, that helps me to actuallygive you what you want Exactly.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
I'm like, yes, watch out world.
I'm feeling great, Okay, soagain, thank you so much for
taking the time to come on thispodcast.
I appreciate it more than youknow and I look forward to
seeing you in a few weeks.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Yeah, thank you so much.
It's been great to be here.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
Hey, bye, kelly.
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