Adoption, Identity, And Finding Your People

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What happens when the truth comes early, a storm knocks out the island’s power, and a single name spoken in a courtroom echoes for decades? We bring you Jennifer’s journey—from being adopted at two days old on Guam to leading an NYC adoption agency for older youth—and the winding path between belonging, uncertainty, and grace.

We talk about the power of honest language in childhood and how it turns “You’re adopted” from a weapon into a badge of identity. Jennifer shares how race and visibility shaped daily life when strangers questioned family resemblance, and why being the only sibling placed for adoption can hold both gratitude and unanswered why. A typhoon delayed the phone lines, a JAG attorney steadied the process, and years later a letter reopened a closed adoption with care, caution, and compassion. The first reunion happened at a family gathering; the next brought both families together, proof that love can hold complexity without breaking.

We go deep on adoption‑competent therapy—why standard counseling often stalls with adoptee‑specific trauma, ambiguous loss, and reunion dynamics, and how specialized clinicians change the work. Jennifer traces her calling to public service, moving to New York, and stepping into leadership at an agency that finds families for teens in foster care. The job brings vicarious trauma, but also purpose: a daily commitment to permanence, safety, and dignity for youth who’ve been told they don’t matter.

If you’ve ever stared at a blank line on a birth certificate or felt the pull to find a missing piece of self, this conversation offers language, tools, and a little hope. Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review with the moment that stayed with you most. Your voice helps others find the support they deserve.

Music by Curtis Rodgers IG @itsjustcurtis
Produce and Edited by Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Johnnie Underwood

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
Welcome to the So I'm Adopted Podcast, where we
talk everything adopted.
This journey is not one we takealone.
Together we grapple with rawemotions that surface from
adoption stories.
Want you to be comfortableenough to hear stick back and go
with us on this journey as wedie to adoption.

(00:35):
All right, welcome, welcome,welcome to another episode of So
I'm Adopted.
I'm John.

SPEAKER_03 (00:40):
I'm Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 (00:41):
And we just want to thank you for investing some
time with us today as we talkabout non-traditional
relationships.
As always, we encourage you tohit that like and hit the share
button just so that others canbe empowered by these
discussions, these richdiscussions that we continue to
have.
And uh, I will tell you thatthis journey has been a very
powerful one.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00):
It has.
It truly has.
I it has blown my mind based offof you know once we started.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
Yeah, once we started, I was very hesitant,
new, not new in my journey, butnew in a different season of my
journey.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
Um, and not really knowing how, not knowing if you
know, I could even share thestory.
So now to be able to talk aboutit freely and have the support
of you know the biologicalfamily, it just is a different
dynamic.
And there's still just somelevels of safety, um, just to
protect, you know, all partiesinvolved, including myself,
because even as we continue totalk and continue to grow on it,

(01:37):
uh, there's levels of of traumathat are still being unpacked
for me that I've suppressed overthe years.

SPEAKER_03 (01:42):
Right, right.
It definitely has been aneye-opening experience
emotionally through the wholeprocess, just the different
layers.
Just you and I are peeling backso many layers that, like you
had mentioned, that we didn'treally realize that it was
suppressed.
So, yeah, this definitely hasbeen a journey.

SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
I truly believe that when you when you talk about
something, you take away thetaboo from it.
And being able to talk about itis therapeutic, but not everyone
has the courage, and itdefinitely takes courage, it's a
strength in being able to talkabout things that you don't
know, and then those innermostparts that shape how you view
life.
Um, and I think that's one ofthe things that has been very

(02:23):
common amongst all of ourguests, and even our stories
that our adoption stories impacthow we do life, how we interact
with others, how we parent, howwe do marriage, how we work,
just all of those embodied withit.
All relationships, allrelationships.

(02:44):
So, as we do always, we're gonnastart off with a famous adoptee
story.
So, Lisa, who you got today?

SPEAKER_03 (02:50):
So, what I have today is based on our
conversation later on.
Okay, I pick Angelia Jolie,okay, all right, who has adopted
many children and she has herown as well, but she's adopted

(03:11):
children internationally.
She's adopted one from Cambodia,Ethiopia, and Vietnam.
And did you know a little knownfact that the one that she
adopted from Ethiopia had itgoes to Spelman?

SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
Really?

SPEAKER_03 (03:28):
And she's an AKA.
Okay, all right, all right,okay, big up, big up to the
divine nine, the aka aka andhbcu.

SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
That's awesome.
Good.
So that's good because sheallowed them to be themselves to
experience the culture, toexperience the culture, and I
think that that's a discussionin itself that when you have
adopt adoptee or you have theparents trying to figure out
that balance, do we completelyengulf, especially when you have
international adoption?

SPEAKER_03 (03:56):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
What culture do you expose and then what do you
allow them still to have?
And that may create a battle initself of that identity piece.
Yeah, you know, we we're allsearching for something, so
something that that we canrelate to.
That's powerful.
I'm glad that you shared thatpart of it.
That's real good.
So mine is is very relevant, andI didn't know this, right?

(04:22):
Okay, so the person that I havetoday is Walt Disney.
Did you know that Walt Disneyhad an adopted child?

SPEAKER_03 (04:30):
I did not know that.

SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
I had no clue.

SPEAKER_03 (04:32):
I did not know that.

SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
He does have a biological okay, but he also he
and his wife they adopted achild.
Wow, three years' difference,really, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
Who knew?

SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
I would never know.

SPEAKER_03 (04:45):
Can you imagine that child being adopted by Disney?

SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Yeah, that's himself, but think about it.
Back then, even though theystill had the financial piece,
Disney wasn't what we know todayof Disney.

SPEAKER_03 (04:57):
That's true.

SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
And then you think about it, with all that he did,
how present was he?
And I'm not saying he, you know,was or wasn't.
Right, right, right.
So, you know, a lot of times welook at this lens and we have
the mindset of, oh, I wish thatI was in that seat, but there
are sacrifices that have to bemade as well.

SPEAKER_04 (05:15):
Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
So it was just interesting, especially because
Walt has this affinity for forchildren and making sure he
brings joy to their life.

SPEAKER_03 (05:24):
That's that's a good subject to deep dive into down
the line.
Okay, you know how and justusing famous people as a as an
easy example, because yeah, youcan adopt somebody, but are you
present in that child's life?
Because for financial reasons,you're able to do it.

(05:45):
But at the end of the day, is itgood for the child?
That's because you have money,but are you investing your time,
your love, you know, thereemotionally for them?

SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
So it goes back to your motivation for the
adoption.

SPEAKER_03 (06:00):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
You know, and some people it may start off as, oh,
I want to do this, I want tohelp.
But once you get into it, youknow, you inherit a lot of
different things that you maynot be prepared for.
Exactly.
So again, again, hit the like,hit the share button, let
somebody know if you are uhinspired by these stories.
Let us know.
I will tell you that that helpsus continue to go down this

(06:21):
road.
We've come in contact withpeople that have reached out to
us and they've said, listen,what you're doing matters.
Um, I had an individual whoworks in the school system, he's
not adopted, but he said that hecomes in contact with children
or students, since theychildren.
Well, they're there arechildren, students who have
non-traditional families, thathe's used some of the language
that we've discussed to be ableto help them in their early-on

(06:46):
trauma and journeys.
So they don't have necessarilythe adoption from the legal
standpoint, but you have themixed household and just that
non-traditional aspect.
So that's our famous adopteesegment.
So now let's let's jump into ourguest for the day.
I am super excited about thisone, as as I always am.
But this one is is very uniquejust in how the discussion came

(07:10):
about, and she's an alumni of Iwould say the the greatest HBCU.
Absolutely, you know, peoplewill argue me down, but Hampton
University, and she is aquintessence three part of my
class as well.
So let you read that.
All right, my eyes are paidright now.
I can't see.
I have glaucoma, I accept it forwhat it is.

(07:31):
Legally, I do it.
I bet glaucoma is bad.

SPEAKER_03 (07:33):
Yeah, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (07:35):
No, it's not a joke.

SPEAKER_03 (07:35):
I know I'm serious.
That's not good.

SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
I know they probably will take my license in about
10-15 years.

SPEAKER_03 (07:41):
No, that's not funny.

SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
No, I'm not joking, I'm serious.
That's a reality I've had toaccept.
I said when you talk aboutthings, you take the taboo away.
I wrestle with that all thetime.
That's my truth.

SPEAKER_03 (07:52):
Yeah, I'm sorry because you know you're always a
jokester, so I can never I cannever tell when you're telling
the truth.

SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
This that's the truth.
I got drops and everything.

SPEAKER_03 (08:01):
Oh wow, yeah.
You like drop Miss Daisy.

SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
I see that that was the bit much.
That's it's okay.
Understand.
You can start and I'm gonnafinish it.

SPEAKER_03 (08:12):
I know you will.
So we do have a our guest today.
Her name is Jennifer Pinder.

SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Pender, yes.

SPEAKER_03 (08:21):
Pender, Pinder, is a proud adoptee, a Hampton
University grad, adopted at twodays old.
She grew up in a loving familywith an older brother and two
amazing parents.
Uh, her parents were born andraised in Maryland.
Her dad's career as an officerin the Air Force took the family

(08:42):
to several places.
Jennifer was born in Guam andraised in Louisiana, Nebraska,
California, Washington State,and Illinois.
Wow.
Hey Well culture.
Well grass underneath her feet.
She currently resides in NewYork City, where she leads an

(09:06):
adoption agency for older youthin foster care.

SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
That's a huge discussion, right there.

SPEAKER_03 (09:12):
That's a huge discussion.
Yeah.
So without further ado, let's goahead and bring Miss Jennifer
on.
Hey, hey.

SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
Hello.
Hi, Lisa.
Hi, John.
Hi, how are you?
Good.
You all have me going through arange of emotions backstage.

SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
I'm curious to know what give me at least two of
them.

SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
Well, you know, well, sorry about your glaucoma.
Seriously.
My grandmother has it, my momhas it, and they're doing fine,
but they're still driving.
So there's hope.
So that Lisa, I thought he wasjoking too.
So that's why I was like, uh-oh.
So I had to pull it back.
Right.
So I was on that journey withyou, Lisa.
And then the adoption piece,like pretty much everything you
said about adoption, I was verymuch the amen choir over here in

(09:59):
the back.
So that's where I was.

SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Got it.
Well, hey, thank you so much foraccepting this invitation to
just come on our podcast andtalk.
And before we even jump intoyour story, let's share with the
viewers because again, this isso organic how it took place and
how we got to this point.
Yep.
Share how this moment came tobe.

(10:23):
I'll let you share.

SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
Right.
So my perspective is that, youknow, having gone to Hampton,
there are some people you have,you know, close proximity to,
you have a lot of classes with.
That wasn't the case for Johnnyand I.
It's like we knew each other inpassing, but we weren't, we
weren't even friends on socialmedia.
We would, I would pass by him,he and his wife at Homecoming,
High and Bye.

(10:45):
And then last homecoming.
So last year, it, you know, thismoment created itself for Johnny
and I to just like chat it up alittle bit.
And so we, like I said, didn'thave a chance to get to know
each other.
Within the first minute of ourconversation, discovered that we
were both adopted and kind ofjust like mind-blown, right?

(11:06):
So I don't believe thecoincidences.
I, you know, it happened for areason, and here we are, and I'm
just really grateful.

SPEAKER_03 (11:13):
I'm grateful for it too, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
And it was so it was so powerful because you shared
with me, you know, a little bitabout your story, but then the
conferences, because I had no,we had no clue of just the
resources that were out there.
It was just like, wow, I wassupposed to be and I was
supposed to talk to her, and Iwas so geeky, and just again, as
you find others that share thatcommonality, there's an

(11:38):
excitement, but you just you'recool as the other side of the
pillow, you're always just cool.
It takes one to know one, but itis just like wow, that that's a
commonality.
And then it's like, well, howcan I just learn more and get
empowered and what connectionsand networking when you shared

(11:59):
about the conference?
I felt so inadequate from thestandpoint of just not knowing
you don't know what you don'tknow, right?
And our schedules didn't allowus to participate in it with me
transitioning, you know, out ofstate and a lot of other things.
But that is one of the thingsthat we're going to start
participating in.
So yeah, so let's let's jumpright in.

(12:21):
Anything you want to say, say,Lucy?

SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
No, other than when did you know that you were
adopted?
We did this today.

SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
Let's get into it.
Let's go.
So I do not remember notknowing, right?
And I but I do have this vividmemory, which now in hindsight,
I I don't know if it actuallyhappened, but I have a vivid
memory of my mom brushing myhair and explaining to me my
biological mother and beingadopted.

(12:51):
And because that memory wasfuzzy, I actually called my
parents this morning.
Thank god my parents are stillalive, lucid, and can remember
memories from literally 50 yearsago, right?
So they said that first they hadconsulted experts and said, when
should we tell her?
And they said, as soon as shestarts asking questions, like
there's no need to just like youknow, jump out there and and

(13:14):
drop it on her.
So being the nosy child that Iam, I started asking questions
pretty early.
And my mom said to me, Now Iwill typically I don't say
adoptive mom, but I'll say it inthis space because I know it
could be hard to keep track foryou to use your language okay,
all right, if you're okay withthat.

(13:35):
So my mom said, well, both of myparents said that when I was
three.
Now, why would I even ask thisquestion?
I saw this pregnant woman and Isaid, Hey mom, was I in your
belly like that?
Right?
So it's kind of like I had thatintuition of knowing that maybe
I wasn't.
And my mom, because they haddone that work of consulting
experts and trying to understandwhen would be what's the right

(13:57):
language, when would be theright time.
My mom said, nope, you weren't.
You were in another woman'sbelly, and she loved you, we
loved you, and we're yourparents, right?
And so I was like, all right,cool.
Kind of just walked off.
And the thing is that it's beenan ongoing conversation since
then.
And my parents all at some pointsaid, anytime you want to know

(14:20):
more, just let us know.
Now, and my parents are, youknow, they're very loving,
they're deeply compassionate,and they are transparent anyway.
So outside of the context of myadoption, they've always been
transparent.
That's just who they are at thecore.
And for me, it's just, you know,an illustration of how deeply
they love, because you have to,you have to really love somebody

(14:44):
to be able to be that honestwith them.
And so, you know, what they saidthey really I really started to
dig into the questions when Iwas 16.
But they were like, they alsoshared with me like growing up,
and I remember this, like Iremember just like feeling
really comfortable with thattruth because my parents shared
it with me so early and theywere comfortable with it.

(15:06):
I have an older brother who'sactually their biological child,
and that is my we are bestfriends, that's the homie.
And my my my parents always tolda story of how when they came to
get me from the hospital, thathe was holding my brother was
holding me, and he was like,This is the little sister I
always wanted.
Now, my brother tries to denyit, but we all know it happens,

(15:30):
we have witnesses.
But back to growing up is thatthere was one incident that my
parents just shared with me thatI don't remember.
But a kid across the street, soI was probably five or six at
the time, her mom had told her Iwas adopted, and she thought
that she would weaponize thatinformation against me.

(15:51):
Right, and she's like, Well,that's why you're adopted.
And apparently I read her forfilth and made her feel so bad
about now.
She felt, and then to the pointwhere she felt left out, she was
like, Well, I'm gonna be adoptedbecause I told her how special
it is to be adopted, and youknow, and that again that goes
back to like how comfortable myparents made sure with this
truth.

SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
They empowered you, really.

SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
They empowered me 100%.
And another thing that's it'simportant, and it's part of my
story, and I know will continueto be, is that, and this is not
a complaint, this is just I amit's a matter of the fact, I
don't look like my family,right?
And so it's another reason whyit was so important that they
gave me that truth and made mefeel so comfortable with it is

(16:34):
because you know, there's aunfortunately there's a subset
of people who will put you in aposition where they try to make
you feel obligated to explain asituation, right?
So if I walk into a room with mybrother, my mom and dad, there
are gonna be some people who arelike, okay, so what's what's
going on over here?
Right.
And since childhood, that's beenthe case.
And for background, my both ofmy parents are black Americans,

(16:58):
and they my dad was in the AirForce and he was stationed on
Guam when I was placed foradoption.
So I am Pacific Islander andBlack.
So I'm most people think I lookambiguous, the rest of my family
is not.
But I that I am notuncomfortable about that because
again, because of my parents,there would be times where my

(17:19):
mom and I would be, you know, ata cash register checking out,
and and the cashier would belike, That's that's your mom.
That's your so there's this allthis scrutiny that was always
happening, and then it wouldalways go to but so I'm 5'10, my
mom's five three, and they wouldget to well, but she's so tall.
And and my mom would say, But myson is six four, and my mom gave

(17:40):
birth to my brother, so it'slike she can make tall babies,
exactly.

SPEAKER_04 (17:45):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
So that was a really long answer to when did I find
out I was adopted.

SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
So two two things.
The first one, I think that themempowering you at such an early
age not only prepared you forthe discussions and the
scrutiny, as you were saying,but it also shaped just knowing
your personality, it shaped whoyou are and your ability to, as
the young folks say, stand onbusiness, so to say, right,

(18:14):
right, you know, and that is, Ithink a lot of times we were
talking about motivation foradoption, but parents aren't
prepared, so kudos to them fordoing the work, the research.
When should we tell?
Because you have a lot of peoplethat are threatened by that
taboo, and they don't want towas my mother, right?

(18:34):
They don't want to talk aboutit.
My mom talk about it with me,but she didn't want me to
uncover, you know, the otherpiece.
And parallel to you, my dad wasfive, too.
So they were looking, they werelooking at me like where you get
your height from who this ladyfool.
That ain't that ain't yourdaddy, and you know, so it grew
up.
I grew up with the running jokeof it, and it didn't bother me

(18:56):
because, like you, I always knewshe said she found out later in
life moments during my highschool years where my brother,
who's older than me, three yearsolder than me, he was adopted as
well.

SPEAKER_03 (19:13):
And in my household, my mom did everything with
school with us.
She was a PTA president, she wasa BAM mom, you name it.
So the only person they saw washer light skin, freckles, my
brother was light skinned, andlater on we found that he was
biracial.
So that's why now my dad, who'sdark skinned, has light brown

(19:38):
eyes, I have light brown eyes,but they never really saw my dad
because he never really was notinvolved in any school
activities, unless you lived inmy neighborhood.
Did you not know who my dad was?
Sure.
So when I went to high school, Ihave an unusual last name, and
they were like, Are you Howard'ssister?

(19:58):
And I was like, Yeah, he's theythe first thing they said was,
Oh, are you adopted?
They're like, No, I'm notadopted.
So I go home, tell my mom thewhole entire scenario, and she's
like, and so I'm cooking thisfor dinner, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
Yep, on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_03 (20:15):
He went on to something else.
She never really, and that was,you know, I didn't think
anything of it until you knowlater on when I and then all
those different scenarios thattook place over my life came
rushing in it.
Right, oh, oh, oh, you know, soyeah.

SPEAKER_01 (20:35):
I wish and I have to, yeah, and I think our
parents are always trying toprotect us, right?
But it just looks different.
They I feel like they're, youknow, I trust that they're doing
what they think is the bestthing to do in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 (20:49):
And they can only use the tools that are in their
toolbox.
That's the reason.
Right.
Um my parents being fromAlabama, they didn't know.
They just happened to be hadcome to Virginia, and my dad was
military, that's how they got toVirginia.
So the agency they were workingwith, they had an amazing social
worker that walked them throughthe process.

(21:11):
I think thereafter it was, okay,here you go, good luck.
No, just you know, just what itwas at that time.
Um so let me ask this questionbecause you brought up age 16.
What was significant at 16 whereit made that turn?

SPEAKER_01 (21:27):
I you know, I think it was probably a number of
things.
It was you know, coming of ageand just self-discovery and like
all the other differentcategories, and just like trying
to fill all the boxes.
And the other thing is that youknow, I always longed to know
who my birth mother was, right?
And so I think just as I gotolder, it's like, and I could

(21:48):
even like I could I could feelher presence.
It's like I know she's out heresomewhere.
And I knew when I was born, shealready had my older sister.
And so when I was born, my myparents said, Well, is she okay?
Like, does she need a home?
And they said, No, birth mom'sgonna keep older sis, she'll
place Jennifer for adoption.
So I think that's that's what itwas, the identity piece that you

(22:11):
referenced, and really wantingto really understand myself on a
deeper level.
And the other thing is that Ialways knew her name.
So, you know, every jurisdictionis different.
So I had, and I don't know whatwas that, because there were a
lot of other wonky things thathappened in terms of the legal
proceedings with my adoption,but I always had two birth

(22:32):
certificates.
So I had one with so I had birthmom's name was on it, and then I
had the new one that theyadministered, which had both of
my parents' names on it once Iwas adopted.
So the interesting thing is thatthe the original birth
certificate that had birth mom'sname on it, where where it says
father, it was blank.

(22:54):
And I remember seeing that as achild and thinking, oh, he
probably doesn't know that Iexist.
I don't know why, except forGod, why would that even pop up
in my mind as a youngster untilI found out that that is
actually the case?
Like he never knew she waspregnant, he doesn't know I
exist.
That's why the name is blank,right?

(23:16):
And so I just feel like, youknow, God has always had his
hands in this whole situationbecause with my dad being in the
Air Force, they were stationedin Maine when my brother was
born, and then got papers toliterally the other side of the
world to go to Guam when, and mymom won't mind me sharing this,

(23:36):
they always wanted to have twokids.
Mom had a miscarriage, wasn'table to conceive, and said yes,
they absolutely want to adopt.
Like, what are the odds thatthey would end up in this tiny
island in the middle of thePacific Ocean where this woman
is pregnant with a child withplans to place that child for
adoption?
So it's just like you know,seeing God's hand throughout all

(23:58):
of this has especially beenreally powerful too, because
there's just no otherexplanation as to how everything
has played out.

SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
So go ahead.
I have two questions.
One first one is is that thename your your birth mother gave
you is Jennifer?
You know, I don't know that.

SPEAKER_01 (24:16):
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (24:17):
Only reason I've wondered it and I haven't asked
it yet.

SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
I don't know yet.

SPEAKER_03 (24:20):
Okay, and then my other question is how do you
feel?
Because I know how I felt thatyour mother kept her sister and
then placed you for adoption.
Because I have my own feelingsabout that, right?

SPEAKER_01 (24:36):
Well, I'll tell you, I think what helped my shape my
opinion is the way that you knowI was a traditional closed
adoption, so my parents hadlittle to no information.
They knew about older sis, andthat's real that was really
about it, right?
But even with that, they wouldalways honor and respect birth

(24:57):
mom and say, look, she made adecision in order for you to
have a better life.
She did that because she caresabout you.
But I I I do wonder, so I alwaysappreciated that, right?
And and still believe thatbecause I'm two of five, so I
discovered she had three moreafter me, and I still was the
only one that was placed.

SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
You right?

SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Are we right?
So I don't know why that is.
I think it is peculiar.
I think in adoptions it'stypically the first or the last,
right?
Right?

SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
Yeah, but I I I feel that we were born for a specific
reason, right?
For our adoptive mothers.
That's the only reason.
Because if you for me, I havetwo older sisters and I have a
younger brother, only one whowas adopted.

(25:57):
But because of who my adoptivemother was, it makes perfect
sense to me.
Right.
What and I don't know hercomplete story, but what little
bit I do know is that I was Godsent for her.
That's right.

(26:18):
So you wasn't you wasn't meant,I always say I wasn't meant for
that other life.
I wasn't born for that.
That's right.
That was another life.
I wasn't born for it.
I couldn't, I couldn't, I don'tthink I could make it in that
life that was my original whatit would have been.
So you wasn't meant to be that'sright there with your mother,

(26:38):
your biological mother.
You are always meant for youradoptive mother.
I believe that too.
I believe that.

SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
So, and I'm glad you clarified that it was a closed
adoption because the languageyou were using, it it I thought
that they knew everything andthat they had contact in the
beginning.
So that was going to be myquestion.
So I'm glad that you clarifiedthat it was a closed adoption.
Because my uh my other questionwas you know, with it being on a
military base, was the agencythrough the military or was it

(27:10):
through the local assembly?

SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
Right.
So I was because birth mom is acivilian, I was born in the
civilian hospital, but becausemy dad was in the Air Force,
they did have a military uhattorney.
So they said they went to theAir Force first, or the Air
Force sent them to the Navy, andso they had a JAG, so a judge,
advocate general assigned tothem who well, it worked out

(27:34):
because one that meant that itwas free, so they didn't have to
pay for the attorney.
And the attorney did walk withthem through the entire process,
which, you know, again, everyjurisdiction is different, every
adoption process is different.
But we encountered someinteresting hurdles because,
well, for one, it started withthere was a typhoon a couple of

(27:56):
days before I was born.
So they were waiting, you know,they had identified the birth
mom as like, okay, you're you'regonna adopt this woman's child,
right?
And so, but I wasn't born yet.
So they're waiting for the phonecall.
The typhoon hits, all the poweron the island is out.
So phones are down, power isout.
And so my mom said that afterthe storm, either it was the

(28:18):
phone guy or the cable guy, butshe was like, Hey, I'm waiting
for you to set up this phoneline because I'm waiting for a
really important phone.
So got the phone line set up,got the call, and I don't know
the timing between the call andgoing to, I guess it was the two
days because they called when Iwas born, and my parents went
two days after to the hospitalwith my brother and a friend,

(28:42):
one of their Air Force friends.
Now, my dad had the wherebecause my dad is like the
photographer of our family.
He had the wherewithal to snap aphoto as my mom, my brother, and
their friend were walking tointo the hospital.
Now, to any, to the untrainedeye, it seemed like just like a
very random photo.
But for me, it's like the mostfavorite picture of my life
because it's like right beforemy life is about to change

(29:03):
because they're walking in,about to come and meet me for
the first time.
So that was the military'sinvolvement.
And my parents told me that theyalso had to pay for my stay in
the hospital, which I think theysaid was$8.45 or something like
this.
So that was a level of theirresponsibility.
But yeah, they didn't have anyinformation, completely closed

(29:26):
and traditional.
They think they may have seenher in the hallway leaving as
they were coming in, but there'skind of no way of knowing.
But even though it was closed,birth mom did end up finding me.
Oh, she found you found me.
Now I have been looking for herbecause I had her name.

(29:46):
Okay.
And even my dad was helping mefind her, and we kind of had
this little investigative teamwhere it's like, okay, I found
this phone number.
Did anybody pick up?
So he and I were kind of tagteaming, and we didn't find
anything.
And I think it just wasn't timefor that to happen yet, right?
So we kind of put thatinvestigation to bed.

(30:06):
And then I was about 30 when myparents called me.
And my parents always called meon speaker phone.
So I didn't think anything ofit.
They were like, look, so we havesomething to tell you.
I'm like, oh, okay, cool.
I mean, that's just always theirvibe.
So they said, look, so we got aletter in the mail and
essentially just indicated thatmy birth family was looking for

(30:29):
me through him.
And I've like kind of put thewhole investigation away, gone
on about my life.
So I pretty much had a wholebreakdown and I was like, I'm
gonna call y'all back.
Let me process this for aminute.
So I called them back, and youknow, they just continued in
this vein of just honesty andtransparency and love and said,
look, we'll follow your lead.

(30:50):
We could whatever you want todo, you want to put it down,
give it time.
Do you want to forget aboutwhatever you say?
So I said, you know, I want topursue it if you all are okay
with it.
And what ended up happening is Icould share this because like
the statute of limitations isover, but I don't think it was
illegal, but in those all thoselike court proceedings where

(31:15):
things got walky here and there,it one thing that happened is
like a law was passed when I wasborn, where all of a sudden they
said three months later, theysaid to my parents, Oh, you're
actually not the adoptiveparents yet.
You're now the foster parents ofthis baby, right?
And then went back to birth momand said, You still have a

(31:36):
chance to claim her if youdecide you don't want to place
her for adoption anymore.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (31:40):
Oh, wow.
And my parents are like, wait,hold on, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
And so thankfully they had the attorney to kind
of, you know, again, guide themthrough this process because
they were just throwing these,you know, monkey wretches that
at them out of nowhere.
And at birth mom, she stoodfirm.
She said, nope, still gonnastick with placing her for
adoption.
And then the next proceeding atsome point was birth terminating

(32:05):
her parental rights.
So saying, you know, I'm gonnagive up parental rights.
And at some point, I can'tremember if it was the judge or
one of the attorneys, but theysaid my dad's name.
They said, Okay, so the baby'sgonna go to Major James
O'Pender, right?
They're like, oh, wait, held herright, exactly.
Everyone looked at her and said,You didn't hear that, right?

(32:28):
Wink wink, because if she hadconfessed to hearing the name,
we gotta start the whole, wegotta place the baby with a
whole nother family.
Right.
So I am so grateful that she,you know, did not confess to
hearing the name.
So, like you said, Johnny, sheheld on to the name.

(32:49):
Literally 30 years later, hadnow my younger sister Google my
dad.
Now I won't reveal the websiteit came up on because I don't
want the people to get introuble.
Because they, where dad waslisted, those people went above
and beyond because you know theywere asking for my dad's
information.
They said, you know, we don'tgive people's information out.

(33:10):
But what they did do is tell mydad, these people are looking
for you.
And that was the link that gotme connected.
And there was no reason for usto believe that it wasn't who
they said they were, right?
But I did send my dad out to dosome recon.
So I was like, Can you just goahead and give this work phone
call?
Right, that's right.
That's right, and so it wentfrom there, and so that's when I

(33:33):
discovered, like I said, I hadall together there are five of
us.
I was the only one that wasplaced, and that just that
started our my our our I guessour reunification journey.
How long ago was that?
So this was like this has been20 years now, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (33:51):
Yeah, so before we jump into that, you you you said
it, and you've reinforced thisidea that God has been
throughout this whole journey,the trauma that could have been
impact inflicted by adoptedparents three months in now, you
being pulled out, right?
Having to go with a totallydifferent family, right?

(34:14):
The name being dropped.
I mean, it's just so manyindicators, right?
It was ordained to be where youare.

SPEAKER_04 (34:23):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
What month were you born?
July.
Okay.
The reason I asked because thefamily that my biological mom
was staying with, and I don'tknow when, prior to they, she
wasn't with them when I was bornbecause they had to go back to
their country or native landbecause of a typhoon or storm.

(34:48):
So that's why I was askingthat's why I was like, Oh gosh,
yeah, that would have beencrazy.
That would have been real crazy.

SPEAKER_03 (34:57):
Talk about the vine.

SPEAKER_00 (34:58):
Yeah, so I was that's I don't know if you saw
my face when you were talkingabout the storm.

SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Wait a minute.
You too?
A typhoon?

SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
Yeah, crazy.
All right, so 16 years old,you're coming into your own,
you're starting to askquestions.
Talk to us about you're about tograduate from high school, you
have this adoption banner thatyou're carrying, and then I say
that in a proud manner.
How do you know how do you makethe decision to go to Hampton?

(35:26):
And then how do you see, or areyou even able to see how this
how your adoption is impactingyou?

SPEAKER_01 (35:35):
Yes.
Well, one, I went to Hampton fortwo reasons.
One, had a couple of familymembers who attended.
Two, put so my, you know, wherewe were stationed throughout the
country, we lived in for themost part, really homogenous
communities.
And that's just a fancy way ofsaying we were almost always the

(35:56):
only black family in theneighborhood.
Right, right.
And so that was challenging tonavigate.
And so I knew I was going to anHBCU.
And so between and also myfamily, my parents, like I said,
they're from Maryland.
Most of my family's on the EastCoast.
I was always drawn to the EastCoast.
So it it it it was it was ano-brainer for me.

(36:18):
And then I think your otherquestion was like, how is my
adoption?

SPEAKER_00 (36:22):
So did you do you think that there were certain
decisions or certain choicesthat you made that were based on
you having the family historythat you had of being adopted
and through this journey?

SPEAKER_01 (36:35):
Well, I didn't get the biological family history
until many years later, untilthat was a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
No, no, no, not the biological piece, but just
knowing that you were adopted.
And the reason I'm askingbecause what we found out is
that some of our guests, howthey were wired and how they
thought were based on them beingfrom the non-traditional family,
so just relationships withvarious peers or even
interaction with various adults,some of them were very put the

(37:03):
guard up, and then you had somevery draw in.
So just asking, looking, youknow, did it how did it impact
you?

SPEAKER_01 (37:11):
For sure.
So I I'm what I I don't know ifthis is an official term, but
I'm like an extroverted,introvert, introverted
extrovert.
So I am like, I'm for those whoare close to me, I'm like, I'm
deeply loving, I'm into it.
But for those who don't know me,definitely walls up, walls,

(37:31):
right?
And I'm working on that intherapy, but I also growing up
knew even though I'm surroundedby healthy long-term marriages,
I never wanted to be married,and I didn't want to have kids.
I was very clear on that.
And people would be confused bythat, and they would say, But

(37:52):
you're so good with kids, youwould be a great mother.
And I never accepted that as acompliment because, like, one,
you don't know that.
Two, I just felt that, you know,I was being judged for making
that decision.
I'm just like, listen, I lovebeing an auntie, I do love kids,
but I always thought, now mythinking on this has changed,
but I always thought thatmarriage was really only

(38:12):
necessary if you were going tohave a family.
I don't believe that anymore.
But because I knew I didn't wantto have my own kids, I didn't
see the need to be married.
And part of the reason why Ididn't want to have my own kids
are it before I found, you know,I felt now I'm in touch with
maternal bio side, maternalbiological family.
I wanted to be able to tell mykids their story.

(38:36):
And it's like all of that was ablank slate for a long time.
And so even now, paternal sideis is blank.
And another, and this is I knowthat the odds of this happening
are low, but it happens, right?
So it's like if I don't know mypaternal side, I don't even want
to run the risk of potentiallydating a family member.
I'll be honest with you.

(38:57):
Like that was one of my genuineconcerns.
Understood.
So it's like, let me justmitigate all these risks and I'm
just not gonna have kids.
And I still I don't regret thatdecision.
And it wasn't made out of angeror sorrow.
It was to me, it was made out ofempowerment.
It's like, this is the journeythat I'm choosing.
I'm gonna love all the kids inmy life down, you know, but I'm

(39:20):
just choosing not to have kidsof my own.
And it's also, I'm just nowreally starting, even after
being therapy for 20 years, I'mjust now really starting to peel
back those layers ofunderstanding myself and how
adoption has implicated, likeyou said, the decisions that I'm
making my life.
And I'm just like, I don't wantto push, I'm not ready to put

(39:41):
some poor fella through me andmy like unfinished business,
right?
Like I'm not, I feel like I, youknow, and no one is like fully
actualized before they getmarried.
I know that's not realistic, butit's just I didn't feel
comfortable entering into thattype of relationship before I,
you know, I started to feel morecomfortable about making
progress of understanding myselfon that level.

SPEAKER_00 (40:02):
So one, I love the statement where you said you
don't know that people sayingthat you would be a good mom.
You don't, right?
That's just you being blunt.
I love it.
Um, but the other piece is thethe therapy piece, the
counseling, because in ourculture, in our community, is
such a a negative stigmatismbehind it.

(40:24):
Yeah, I applaud the fact thatyou you did the the counseling.
My question is, what promptedyou as empowered where as you
have been throughout your wholejourney?
What was the determining factorwhere you're like, you know
what?
Let me seek counseling withthis.

SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
Yeah, well, it wasn't even directly related to
being adopted.
I'm sure it was indirectly insome way, right?
But it I started in my likemid-20s, you know.
You know, I joke about thequarter life crisis where it's
like I would pay to be back inthat quarter life crisis.
I thought everything was so hardback then.
But no, I I was like, I justneed to talk to someone.

(41:04):
And now I did find therapy andcontinue to find therapy very
beneficial.
But when I would talk to theselike highly specialized or
highly accomplished therapistswith PhDs, even, when I would
try to talk to them aboutadoption, they would be like a

(41:24):
deer on headlights.
And what I find, what Ieventually learned is like, oh,
because you have to be trainedin that subject matter.
And if and if you're not trainedor prepared to deliver therapy
and support to your patientsthrough that lens, you're not
going to be able to help them.
And so it's that point where Ifound an additional therapist

(41:45):
who is an adoption competenttherapist.
And it was like a completelydifferent experience.
It's like, oh, this is thespecialized therapy that I need
to attack these issues that arespecific to my being adopted.
So it's not at all to diminishthe qualifications of the
therapists that didn't have, youknow, that that specialty, but
it's just knowing that that isnecessary in order for the

(42:06):
therapy to really be impactful.
How did you find this particulartherapist?
So again, I don't believe incoincidences.
So I was working, I used to livein DC, so I was working in
Maryland at the time.
And I there's a small theater onmy walk from the metro.

(42:28):
And I noticed, I can't rememberthe name of it, but it was a
show about a woman beingadopted.
So I googled it, I bought herbook, I read her book, and it
just so happens that she wasplaced for adoption by the
adoption agency on that samestreet that I was working on.

unknown (42:45):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
And so once I researched that adoption agency,
that's when I found out they hadan adoption competent therapist.
And that and Johnny, that's theadoption agency that hosts the
annual conference I told youabout, too.

SPEAKER_00 (42:58):
Okay, yeah, definitely would be making that
a priority.
That is so, and I'm gonna behonest, the counseling then
therapy that I've been throughhas been for grief purposes.
That's what me to start when uhmy adopted mom passed.
Yeah, and I lost my mind becauseI just everything that I had

(43:21):
believed at that time was nowbeing broken.
And I think you know, you youconsciously know people
transition, but it that realityand it just I didn't respond
well, yeah.
And Janice was like, You gottago talk to somebody.
Yep, and I'm so thankful that Idid, and then it became a part

(43:43):
of well, if it helped me withthis, it can help me with other
areas.
And if I wish I had known aboutthis specific type of
counseling, because I'm I'm behonest, I'm gonna seek it out
for myself now.

SPEAKER_04 (43:57):
Yeah, I recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 (43:59):
Never too late, never, you know.
It's just like when you takemedicine, you take Alcocesa for
this, but you take Advil forthat.
Right, that's right, it'spinpoint.

SPEAKER_02 (44:09):
Um, I had a I had a question and it it escaped me.
That's the old age in me.

SPEAKER_00 (44:18):
So while while she's pondering the question, uh let's
let's shift now because you youmentioned a little bit about you
know, in the bio, we talkedabout what you do in your work.
So talk to me about how you gotto that point.
Through your you said you movewere in Maryland, but then you
moved to DC and you've alwaysknew, you know, I don't want to
be married, I don't want kids.

(44:40):
So knowing that, did that freeup with regards to your journey
with your career and yourpassion?
How did that match up?
Talk to us about that, right?

SPEAKER_01 (44:51):
So I did have I've had a love affair in New York
City for a long time.
And I got to a point where Ithought, oh, I would love to
live there, but I feel like it'stoo late.
And then to your point, I waslike, I don't like I don't have
kids, I don't have a spouse, Ican literally go wherever I
want, right?

SPEAKER_04 (45:12):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 (45:14):
And I love being in the classroom, already had
obtained a master's degree fromUniversity of Maryland, and I
thought, well, why not incursome more debt and go get some
more education?
And so I found this executivemaster's program at NYU.
And thankfully, my my DC job wasextremely flexible and allowed

(45:37):
me to telework full-time, 100%.
And so that allowed, and theyknew I was, you know, exploring
and I wasn't coming back.
And so they said, yeah, as longas we can keep you, then great,
go to school.
And it was part of that programat NYU, it was a cohort program,
and it was an executive master'sin public administration.

(45:58):
And that one of the threats inthe program is that they really
encourage you to examine yourpersonal life to see if it can
inform your professional life.
And so what my friends in thecohort kept reflecting back to
me is that I should get into thefield of adoption.
And I said, absolutely not, it'stoo personal.
Nope, can't do it, won't do it.

(46:19):
And then I kept thinking aboutit, prayed on it.
And then the moment that Iaccepted that as a possibility
in my career, it was literallythe next job posting I saw I was
to lead this adoption agency inNew York City.
And I was just like, this, okay.
Well, obviously I gotta respondto this.
Right.
And apply because I didn't, youknow, especially the job market

(46:42):
in New York City, it's like yougotta know somebody.
I didn't know anyone at thisagency, and that didn't matter.
Because like they called me aweek or two later, and now here
I am five years later, andrunning it's called You Gotta
Believe.
So I've been running thisorganization.
So it's, I mean, it's fullcircle.
Um, it's the hardest thing I'veever done.

(47:04):
And you know, the danger inacknowledging something as a
divine assignment is that youknow who's gonna be all up in
your face.
The devil's like, Oh, really?
Are we are we living in ourpurpose?
Oh, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
Exactly.
I was gonna say your steps havebeen ordered, and it's like
parameters were put in place toguide you to make sure you
landed where he meant for you toland.
So I know that the challengescome, but the other side of it
is you're equipped for it.
The way that you are wired, theway that you think, the way that

(47:39):
you respond, the way that youprocess, it was meant for you
because you're able to handleit.
He's not gonna put more on youthan you can handle.

SPEAKER_01 (47:50):
Thank you both.
I need that.
You have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
Trust me, trust me.
You you talk you're talking toindividuals that I believe
that's a commonality that wehave that steps are ordered.
Like you said, nothing happensby accident.
Um, you you have situationswhere you you feel like, how did
I get this opportunity?
Well, because it's alreadyoffered for you.
Yep, he had already said this isfor my child, this is for mine.

(48:16):
That's right.
You know, and and we just haveto be bold enough to walk in it.
Yeah, that's right.
Uh it's a confirmation for methat you know he's still he's no
respecter person, he's the sameyesterday, day and five.

SPEAKER_03 (48:29):
That's right.
He orchestrates all things well,that's it.
All things well.

SPEAKER_00 (48:34):
So the other so let's talk about now you in this
field and how your personalexperiences impact you because
you're working with the olderright individuals, you being
adopted two days into thisworld, right?
They may look at you like youdon't know my story.

(48:57):
That's right.
You know, they may look at youlike you got the the silver
spoon, you had such, you know.
So, how do a has that happened?
And then how how do you equipyourself to not battle it, but
to coexist in that space and inand help them?

SPEAKER_01 (49:15):
Well, so a couple of things.
One, again, because you know,I'm raised by two parents who
walk in humility and grace, likethat's how I came into this
role, right?
It's like I know I'm not anexpert, I know my experience was
not these kids' experience.
But to me, it's like because myparents, like my parents and I
go back and forth with this,like they will never receive a

(49:39):
thank you, right?
Where I'm just like, oh, I'mjust so grateful for you.
They're like, But are you whatare you talking about?
We're grateful for you.
So we do this.
No, you are you're the greatest.
No, you're right.
And so I never like I I don'twith that, like I never really
have a place to put mygratitude.
And so that's what this roleallows me to do.
Where, but I'll tell you thatthe the challenge is you talk
about trauma, you know, there'sa lot of vicarious trauma in

(50:04):
this type of work where you seewhat what these kids go through
who are in residential treatmentcenters, who have suffered
complex trauma over the majorityof their life, who have been
told they're not worthy, whoit's like, oof, they're but by
the grace of God, go I, right?
And it's so it's a that's a bitof a struggle because that's

(50:24):
when I I it's really hard for meto accept like the gift.
This is a gift, right?
I don't have just any family.
Like I know people have beenadopted where their parents were
not awesome.
You know what I mean?
There's some unfortunatestories, I'm sure you too know
as well.
And I'm not everyone who meetsmy parents, like they're it's

(50:46):
not, and it's not even just myparents, it's my mom, my dad, my
brother, my nephew, likeliterally everybody in my family
on both sides, it's just likethis isn't just any family.
Like this, my family to me isperfection.
And so when I see kids who don'thave that, like it's it is, you
know, it's so heartbreakingbecause they do not deserve what

(51:07):
they're going through.
But it also, you know, itstrengthens my resolve when the
job does get really hard.
And I'm not another thing, islike I'm not on the front line,
but I'm the one that's just liketrying, I'm doing everything I
can to support my team who is tomake sure that they can really
execute on the job and supportthese kids so they can get the
families they deserve.

SPEAKER_00 (51:29):
So I we I definitely want to get into your work.
I think that's a whole notherepisode.
This one right here is aboutjust you in the journey.
I'm wrestling back and forthbecause it's a lot of questions
that I want to ask, but I'mgonna put those to the side
because I I do want to publiclysay it on camera.
So you your hook line issynchronic with another episode.

SPEAKER_01 (51:50):
Right, I'm in, I'm committed.
Whatever you want to leave.

SPEAKER_00 (51:52):
All right, so we will stay with your journey.
But for those of you out thatare watching, you gotta make
sure that you come see the nextepisode because we're not gonna
give you that part of the story.
You have to come back.

SPEAKER_03 (52:02):
So, like, share, all the night above, all the all the
above, so you can get the secondpart to this.

SPEAKER_00 (52:09):
Yeah, but I remember my I was gonna say you remember
your question.
I remember my question.
All right, let's go.

SPEAKER_03 (52:12):
So, with your biological family that you've
known for 20-something years,where's your relationship today?
And what type of a journey wasthat to get to it where it is
today?
Good or bad.

SPEAKER_01 (52:26):
I knew you were gonna ask that, Lisa.
So no, I really appreciate thisjourney.
I mean, that question becauseit's so important.
And so back to when they foundme, it just it added a whole
nother layer of compcomplication and just like
complicated emotions.

(52:47):
Like, even if even I knew that Ithis is what I wanted, I wanted
to be in community with them.
It's like, oh, this is this isreally happening, right?
This is happening.
So from the connection startedfor me, you know, my dad did the
recon to, you know, hedetermined, yes, these are the
people we think they are.

(53:08):
And so the next step was Icalled birth mom.
Now, at this point, she wasstill on the island, which is
the time difference is like 14hours.
So I'm like setting my clock forlike 2 a.m.
I was like, I feel like is thisif it's 2 a.m.
here, it's like 4 p.m.
there, like if so, I'm trying todo the math.
I call her at the right time.

(53:29):
And so I call her.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Is there a language barrier?
There's not.
So Guam is a US territory.
Okay.
They speak English, and you'renot the first person who's asked
that.
So good question.
So she immediately, you know, itwas an emotional call, but I

(53:51):
will say I think she wasexperiencing guilt behind her
decision, where I immediatelylet her know that there is no
reason to feel any guilt at all.
It's like I I always, my parentshave always honored you for this

(54:12):
decision.
I don't want you to hold anyguilt.
I'm grateful to you, they'regrateful to you.
So from that point, sheconnected me with my biological
siblings.
And every I'm doing this becausethis is where everybody lives.
Like everybody lived indifferent places throughout the
country.
And I eventually met all of themat some point.
And then my one of my biologicalbrothers started hosting a

(54:36):
family reunion in the PacificNorthwest because they were only
seeing each other for funerals,and so he wanted to create space
for them to see each other moreoften outside of a funeral.
And so the first one heorganized was the first time I
met BioMom in person.
And now in hindsight, so I wentby myself, and in hindsight, I'm

(55:00):
thinking, oh, my parentsprobably were not excited about
me going there by myself, but itit was fine because the
following year, my biologicalbrother threw another family
reunion, and I brought my wholesquad with me.
So mom, dad, brother,sister-in-law, nephews.
And it really just was like, Icould not have imagined it going

(55:22):
any better, just like watchingmy talk to my birth mom and my
siblings, my biologicalsiblings, thanking my parents
for raising me, my birth mom andmy mom.
So that just I can to this day,it's hard for me to wrap my mind
around how much love is there.
But even with all that love andwith people on both sides

(55:44):
allowing me to be me andallowing me to go at the pace
that I want to go at, I stillstruggle a lot with navigating
and understanding my ownemotions and processing
everything and being given asmuch support as I've been given.
So I can only imagine whateverybody else goes through

(56:05):
because I feel like it's beenmade easy for me in a sense.
But I do also really strugglewith not knowing who my
biological father is.
Where it's like, I'm not lookingfor a dad.
I got a dad, he's the mostamazing father.
Um my mom's phenomenal.
I'm looking for a piece of methat is missing, right?
I am looking to understandmyself better.

(56:27):
And finding him is the only wayI can sort of feel that missing
piece of you know, my own pathof self-discovery.
So I kind of had to get to apoint to, you know, allow myself
to understand that there's areally big possibility that I
will never know who this man is,right?
And how do you wrestle withthat, with also like, you know,

(56:50):
holding on to a little bit ofhope, like maybe I'll get enough
information at some point.
But that's part of like thereally painful piece for me, but
also it's a both and we're likereally grateful about so many
other parts of it, but you know,being patient with myself
because it's there are a lot ofcomplex emotions tied to it.

SPEAKER_03 (57:10):
I can I can understand where you're coming
from.
For me, I was I'm at a point.
Well, since our last interview,it kind of changed, but I was at
a point where if I find him orfind out information about him,
because allegedly he's deceasedand he's been deceased for some

(57:33):
time, but until I see thelituary, it's still alleged.
So I was at a point where if Ifind him, great.
If I don't, I'm okay.
Because the most important thingto me was, and I mean, because
it's a mother, I found mymother, and I know if I leave

(57:53):
this earth and not know who myfather is, I'm still gonna be
okay.

SPEAKER_01 (57:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (57:58):
That's how I felt before we had our last
interview, and now I'm kind ofchanging my tune.
So again, I'm allowing God.
If it's something that God isgonna allow me to allow to
reveal to me, then I one way orthe other.
So that's where I am right now.

SPEAKER_00 (58:19):
So yeah, first let me say this thank both of you
for the the transparency becauseit is a very intimate uh
subject, and I don't want togloss over that, recognizing
just the the sensitivity, youknow, of that part of it.
So thank you all.
Thank both of you for beingwilling.

(58:40):
And it is a it's a process andit's a journey.
You know, again, it's these arethese these commonalities we
share.
For me, the biological father,I've seen the obituary.
He passed away, and you know,it's that from and now the other
piece of it is I have hisinformation, but biological

(59:01):
family on his side, nothing, noresponse, no connection.
You know, so it's like I got theinformation, but I it's nothing
I can do with it right now.
Some of it I'm very, veryrespectful, just of all other
parties involved.

(59:22):
I mean, I shared this with mybiological brother when he and I
first started communicating.
I said, I recognize me comingback into the picture can be
inconvenient for some people.
And he kind of looked at me andI said, No, that's the truth.
I said, have your normalplaylist.
I said, Me coming in is like ascratch on a CD.
I'm there.

(59:42):
I said, and that's justsomething that you have to
address.
And I'm okay with that.
I recognize the role that Iplay.
I said, You have someindividuals that are so
emotionally driven that theydon't care who it impacts, but I
know action has a reaction.
And like we were saying earlier,there's so many other positives

(01:00:05):
that God has given that I'm notI'm going to choose to focus on
the healthy parts.
And the bitter parts are stillthere.
Not to say that they don't, butI'm not going to dwell in those.
I visited recently, you know, alot of times I'll hear something
and then it'll remind me of thename, and I'll go look at the
obituary and I'll say, Do welook alike?

(01:00:27):
I don't think and I'm trying to,I'm having this emotion, this
emotion and this opportunity totry and make a connection from
this.
And you know, and then I'll findmyself, I'll look up and be an
hour later.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:40):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:40):
You know, so it's it's real.
And again, it the trauma justmanifests itself in so many
different ways.
And what happens is because wedon't always have platforms or
communities, you think thatyou're the only one going
through, and it's like, I don'twant to tell anybody, I don't
want to share.
Where it is, no, these arerealistic responses, these are

(01:01:04):
human behaviors that areresponse to trauma.
That's right.
And and you know, we I think nowthat we're in a place in our in
our world where we have thelanguage to be able to what
we're going through.
And umteen years ago, I'm notgonna tell our ages, but umteen
years ago, they didn't have thelanguage.
That's right.

(01:01:25):
In addition to they didn't havethe access to be able to get
certain services and call thatwhat it is.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:32):
You're right, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:33):
So I celebrate the fact that individuals that look
like us are trying to make surewe give back, to make sure that
we empower, to make sure that wecreate communities of support so
that the generation that'scoming behind us they don't have
to face the same potholes in thestreet that we did.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:51):
Right, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:54):
So uh again, just thank you both for the the
transparency in that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:58):
And oh, thank you.
Thank you, yeah.
Um that's and I find that I findthat a lot of adoptees are
selfless to a fault almost, andwe have to remember like I don't
enjoy being the center ofattention, but we are the center

(01:02:18):
of this constellation, right?
And it's not to say that weshouldn't be thoughtful and
intentional about how we engagewith everybody in the
constellation, whether it'sfamily or biofamily, but it's
also like this is my experience.
Like, if I'm if I you know wantto understand some things, I
think we have to remindourselves that we have the

(01:02:39):
agency to ask the questions, touncover some things, you know,
respectfully, of course, but Ithink you know, oftentimes I've
seen this anecdotally whereadoptees are like, oh, we don't
want to rock the boat, or it'slike, well, we didn't build the
boat, right?
Exactly.
We just showed up here.
I'm just I'm just trying tofigure me out and and just for
us to remember that everyonedeserves to know where, when,

(01:03:04):
and how we came from, right?
And whatever that takes, youknow, it's worth doing that
work.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:10):
So that that's me.
I don't want to rock the boat.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:14):
Yeah, oh, I'm gonna rock the boat.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:16):
Let's see, you gotta think about so again, this is
nature versus nurture, right?
Yes, so my my parents were fromAlabama, the deep south.
Their mindset was, you are alarge black male, so they
instilled in me a level ofhumility that is sometimes it's

(01:03:38):
to a fault.
Like I wish I didn't have theamount of humility I have
sometimes, yeah, because itcauses more challenge and
conflict in an everyday basis.
So I've had to kind of adapt andmake some adjustments, and I
still revert back to well, it'sokay, just live the fight
another day, you know, God willtake care of you, and even you

(01:04:03):
know, with the mindset of mecoming back as an inconvenience,
the reality I don't have to havethat's that's I shouldn't have
to wear that banner.
I don't have to, but I chooseto, and it just worked out.
And again, this is where it'sall God ordained because it
worked out because from the timeof me finding biological family
to the time me and biologicalmom met, a lot of that time in

(01:04:28):
between, because of my humility,because of my humbleness,
because of my patience, itallowed, I believe, us to have a
positive relationship now.
Because I think it came in, youknow, guns blazing, right?
It would have pushed her backfurther.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:43):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:43):
I wanted to create an opportunity where you have no
reason to feel or see anythingnegative.
I'm here in an effort of peace.
I'm here in an effort to justget to know you.
I want to bring somethingpositive to the table.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:56):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:56):
So yeah, oh my goodness.
You you have this has beenwonderful.
This has truly been wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:04):
It has.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:06):
So two questions, and then we're gonna get ready
to land the plane.
I have two, Lisa may have a fewmore.
So talk to me about in the fiveyears of you being in your
position, what has been yourgreatest reward?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:26):
I would say it's it's really been, you know,
similar to my adoption journey,it's really been a faith walk,
right?
So, you know, it's very much Goddoesn't call the call, he
doesn't call the qualified, hequalified to the call, right?
That's right.
I came and I was like, I have noidea what I'm doing.

(01:05:48):
Like I'm I was like, what am Isupposed to do here?
And then, you know, the humilitypiece comes in.
It's like you can lead withinquiry.
It's okay to ask questions.
You don't have to pretend likeyou know everything.
Building a community within thechild welfare system in New York
City, where they've been, youknow, anyone who I've asked for

(01:06:10):
help has given it to me.
People who barely know me,right?
So I think the reward for me islike allowing myself to be
vulnerable, dropping thosewalls, right?
Those walls that I said that I Idropped those walls at least
professionally, and that hasbenefited me greatly.
So I think that's been thereward where I've I took the

(01:06:30):
chance, the challenge ofaccepting the role, and then
walking through with humilityand and curiosity, and always,
you know, wanting to learn andyou know, being comfortable with
failing, right?
I mess up almost every day,right?
And understanding there's alesson to be learned from that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:49):
Being comfortable with failing.
That's right.
That is so powerful.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:54):
That's good.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:55):
That is a that's one of the reasons that a lot of
people don't try and they don'twant to fail, they won't say it,
but that's at the core becausesomebody may told them you
can't, you won't, and they've orthey've seen other people not do
it, and they just don't have theability to have, as you called
it, a faith walk.
That's that's the core, that'sat the core of all of it.

(01:07:16):
It's all about the faith walk.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:17):
That's true, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:19):
So the second question is this what would you
say to somebody who is justtrying to find their way,
whether it be someone who's inthe foster care system or
somebody who wants to get intothat field, or somebody who is,
you know, adopted and trying tocome to terms, you know, just

(01:07:40):
what would be the the nuggetthat you would want people to
walk away with after you knowexperiencing this this journey?
And I say experience and notlistening, because I feel like
it it draws you in.
There are so many heart stringsand so many realities and aha
moments that you can't justlisten to this, you experience
it.
Yeah.
So what do you want people towalk away with?

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:03):
Well, I mean, finding your way, whether it's
professionally or personally, Ithink you've got to really be
honest with yourself about whatyour needs are.
Like, what are you reallylooking for?
Right?
What are you hoping to achievewith this journey that you're
on?
And then allowing yourself, youknow, for me, it's like like you

(01:08:25):
were saying, Lisa, before youfelt one way about biological
father.
Now, oh, look, seems like Iturned the corner.
That's okay, right?
Allow yourself to experiencethat flex that flexibility in
your emotion and giving yourselfa lot of grace and understanding
like this is your experience,and no one else gets to tell you

(01:08:46):
how to feel about it.
And I would say, because of howchallenging the emotions can be,
I have always found it, youknow, the the first thought in
my mind when those emotions,when those challenging emotions
pop up is to flee.
It's like I'm out, I don't wantto.
That is always my initialthought.

(01:09:10):
And I allow myself to feel thatbecause knowing I'm I'm going to
go back and wrestle with it, butI allow myself to fake flee for
a little while.
And then I come back and sit init.
Where it's like, and I don't,you know, I used to beat up on
myself about that.
Where it's like, no, that's justthat is part, that's your, you
know, you talk about traumaresponse.
Okay, you responded, and now youcan go back and course correct,

(01:09:31):
sit in it, and really processit.
So, really, it's about patienceand you know, acknowledging and
being honest with yourself aboutwhat are you feeling, what are
you trying to accomplish.
And then it's the support piece,whether it's therapy or settings
like this where you're able toshare your story or a close
friend or a family member, like,don't ever try to process

(01:09:53):
anything on your own, right?
You should not like there'snothing to be gained, you don't
get a special ribbon for tryingto figure something out on your
own.
There's always going to besomewhere, someone around you
that can help you through it.
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:06):
That's right.
Wow.
Anything that you anything else?

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:11):
There's nothing other than drop drop the mic.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:14):
Drop the mic.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:15):
That's it.
Well, I have to say how much Iappreciate the two of you for
creating this space.
It's so unique and it's sonecessary.
This has been therapeutic andcathartic for me, and I'm sure
it's been the same for the restof your guests.
So I'm really honored to evenjust be a part of this.
So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:30):
Yeah, it's this you are more than welcome.
More than welcome.
Again, thank you for thevulnerability, the transparency,
and just being willing to comeon with us and share your story.
And again, I'm trying to justsuppress my emotions because uh
I celebrate this opportunity tobe able to connect like-minded

(01:10:54):
individuals who have who carrythis this banner, as I call it.
And as we learn, because wedon't have all the answers,
we're trying to figure it out.
You know, life is lifing, and wehave different variables to
help, you know, to that we haveto overcome.
Yeah, and based on what youshared, we gotta go to specific

(01:11:18):
individuals to make sure that weget the appropriate support.
Because it's one thing, onething to get support, but it may
not be effective for you.
Yeah, you know, I used to worksecurity at a hospital that had
been shut down in the Fort News.
Ironically, it was the one thatI was born in.
How crazy was that?
Didn't know it's but we I usedto work security and

(01:11:39):
individuals, yeah.
Individu would come and I wouldjust they would knock on the
door.
I need help.
And I said, You know that we'reclosed, there's no doctors here.
You're just coming just to makeyourself feel good, you're not
really coming to give support.
And to me, that's anillustration.
I think sometimes people will dostuff because, oh, this is what
I'm supposed to do.

(01:12:00):
But when you're really ready todo the work, then you identify
where you need to get the helpfrom, and then you follow
things.
So again, you just gave, like Isaid, you you motivated me to
get some pinpointed therapy.
Yes, that's that's the languageI want to use.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:18):
That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:20):
Yes, thank you.
Yes, what's the name of theconference that you you
mentioned earlier?

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:24):
So it's the Barker Adoption Foundation, okay, and
it's I believe it's every March.
Okay, okay, and it's in theBethesda, Maryland.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:36):
Got it.
And the reason I asked, we'llwe'll put some information up
about it, but again, just tryingto let people know because
there's a community that suffersin silence.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:46):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:47):
Because they don't know who and they don't know if
they're gonna be judged, so theyjust sit and try and figure it
out, figure it out themselves,right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:55):
And you don't have to do it alone, like I said.
You don't, you don't.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:59):
So, Jennifer, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:02):
Thank you both.
Yes, thank you, thank you, thankyou.
And we normally have a certainsign-off.
If you've watched our podcast,you know how it is.
So we're not gonna give noinstruction because you should
know.
Ready, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:16):
Okay, so I'm Lisa, I'm John, I'm Jennifer, and we
are about adopted.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:26):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Please hit the like, hit theshare, let somebody know.
Please give us some feedback onthis episode and how it has
impacted you.
Um, if you have any questions,please let us know.
We'll make sure that Jennifergets them.
If you have if you live in theNew York area or the Maryland
area, or just and the reasonbeing is because they're

(01:13:46):
different rules in differentstates.
I mean, we're gonna haveJennifer back so she can give us
a breakdown on what it lookslike in New York because the
older adoption population,that's a totally different
conversation.
Yes, it is.
We were adopted young, so wedon't have that lens.

(01:14:08):
So now that she has thisinformation, we want to make
sure that we share it becausewe've come in contact with some
individuals that have gonethrough that process.
Some individuals who you knowmay want to give back or
whatever it may be, or may knowsomebody that may want to share.
So we are definitely lookingforward to the next episode.
And thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:27):
Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:28):
Any last words, Lisa?

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:30):
No, nope.
I'm just happy you were able tobe somewhere you weren't
supposed to be.
That's all I gotta say.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:39):
But she was supposed to be he was supposed to be
there, unless you snuff it.
Did you sneak up there?

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:44):
She snuck up there, she said she did.
She no Lisa's right.
Remember, I said I do not havethe credentials.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:50):
Oh, yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
But you know what?
God gave you the credentials.
Oh, that's it.
All right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:57):
Here's the thing I'm gonna debunk that because I
think I told you you you hungwith the cool kid.
So please have the credentials.
You you were you were straightby the crew.
But look, we're gonna let yougo.
Yes, thank you so much, andlooking forward to the next
interview, the next opportunity,the next experience that we
have.
Thank you, and just pray thatyour week is a fellow is thank

(01:15:21):
you for listening to the Soul ofAdopted podcast.
We hope that this wasinformative and educational.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at So I'm Adopted.
Also subscribe to our YouTubechannel, so I'm a doctor.
And again, thank you forlistening.
And until next time, make thechoice to begin your healing

(01:15:42):
journey.