February 28, 2024 • 60 mins
magine standing at a crossroads, the path behind you a tapestry of silence and secrets, the way ahead promising a reunion with a piece of your soul you didn't know was missing.
As we reveal our personal experiences with adoption and the significant impact of reuniting with our biological mothers, our tales intertwine with the heart-stirring stories of others, including the public reunion of Kirk Franklin with his father, offering a guiding light for anyone navigating the complexities of identity and belonging.Through reflections on Kirk Franklin's own odyssey and the transformative power of such experiences, we underscore the essential role of acceptance and ongoing growth, not just for adoptees, but for everyone forging connections with their past.As the tapestry continues to unfurl, we touch upon the broader implications of family ties and the unexpected ways in which life's serendipities can lead to healing, acceptance, and a deeper understanding of our heritage. From the catharsis of an emotional church reunion to the revelation of hidden truths join us as we journey together through the lives and loves that shape us, both through birth and the families we choose.
Music by Curtis Rodgers IG @itsjustcurtis
Produce and Edited by Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Lisa Sapp
Executive Producer Johnnie Underwood
Tell us your story or leave a comment by following us on
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Email soimadopted@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to the so Unadopted podcast where we talk
everything adoption.
This journey is not one we takealone.
Together, we grapple with rawemotions that surface from
adoption stories I want you tobe comfortable enough to hear,
so sit back and go with us onthis journey as we dive deep
into adoption.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hey, so welcome again to another episode of so
Unadopted podcast.
I'm Lisa, I'm John, andtogether we are adopted.
So again, we wanted to create aspace for adoptions, truths,
and to be able to share them.
(01:03):
Even though we both have acommon denominator in this whole
situation which we are adopted,our stories are definitely
different and we just wanted tobe able to share our stories and
want others to probably comeand tell us about their stories
as well.
But we're just going to startoff with our stories and then
(01:26):
we'll go from there.
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Our stories give the validations of why we're able to
speak about this platform, andthis podcast is where we will
hear adoption truths from otheradoptees, adoptive parents and
birth parents and families,because everybody's impacted
differently with regards to theconcept of adoption.
We will also hear input fromlicensed professionals such as
(01:51):
psychologists, social workers,to get a deeper understanding of
the adoption journey, becausethere's so many different levels
and players in that journeythat you go on.
Hopefully, these stories andperspectives will give hope,
understanding and courage tothose who share our adopted or
(02:11):
are considering adoption, alongwith the journey of acceptance,
reconciliation and maintenanceof being adopted.
Those are the pillars thatwe're defining that during that
journey, you will experienceit's not to say that you won't
experience others, but againthat journey of acceptance, when
you first find out thatreconciliation, whether it's
with those adopted parents,whether it's with the biological
(02:35):
parents, even with yourself,and then the maintenance of
being adopted.
Once you come to terms witheverything you accepted, then
what happens with the rest ofyour life?
Do you talk about it?
Do you help others as they gothrough the journey?
All of those variables are whatwe have defined as pillars in
the commonalities of ourjourneys.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes, and so today we did discuss our last episode
that we're going to talk about,when we actually met our
biological mothers.
But before we get to ourpersonal stories, because just
recently Kirk Franklin had theopportunity to document him
(03:21):
meeting his father for the firsttime his biological father and
that I mean I couldn't text youfast enough to send that to you.
So let's deep dive into that,shall we?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Shall we, let's deep dive.
So I'm going to ask you whatwas your perspective?
And again, having heard ourstories and the journeys, what
was your first and foremost?
When you first got the conceptof Father's Day, I didn't know
what to expect.
I know he's got an album comingout, so I'm excited because I'm
(03:56):
like all right, I'm about toget some new music Music what
had no idea the depths that hewas going to take us.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
For some reason I had kind of a thought that it was
going to be him finding hisfather.
I knew it had something to dowith that I don't know why it's
Father's Day.
I knew that he didn't.
You know he was adopted andthings of that nature.
So I kind of had an idea, but Iwasn't sure.
So I wasn't surprised.
(04:27):
Surprised, but how it all cameabout, that was amazing.
That was a shocker.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
We encourage you to go to YouTube and watch the
documentary to give you someunderstanding.
Don't let this be the spoiler.
You need to watch it so you canhave your own independent
feelings.
We'll share ours.
So I would encourage you andyou don't have most people say
stop this podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Father's Day.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, stop this on pause, we'll pause for one
second and go to YouTube Right.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Watch it because it's and we'll wait until you come
back.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right, you're going to rob yourself if you don't
watch it, to have your ownemotional tie to it.
Yes, so talk to me about howyou felt watching it.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
You know me, I'm a big crybaby, so I was crying
through the whole thing.
It's just how he talked about.
It was a small town he grew upin and what really struck me was
how he kept saying how did thisone little baby and nobody know
about this one little baby fallthrough the cracks?
(05:28):
I don't understand it.
He just couldn't wrap his headaround that In this small town,
nobody knew that this woman waspregnant, nobody knew and how.
His father was at a funeral andsaid oh, you know what I'm used
to date and I can't rememberhis mother's name Deborah,
(05:51):
deborah, just like that.
All these years no onequestioned it.
Now I understand about peoplenot questioning things.
Correct.
What's true about?
it I want to be in your business.
But just in my journey no onewanted to question.
Well, no one did question mynucleus of a family growing up
(06:13):
because we kind of we didn'treally look alike but our
complexions were the same, so noone questioned that.
So I kind of understand why noone would question in this town.
You're seeing this man all overthe world.
You're not going to like, hmm,let me hear his look familiar.
(06:39):
You know what I'm saying.
But God does things the way hedoes things for a reason.
That's the truth.
The first thing that came to mymind is, if Kirk didn't go down
the path that he went down, hemay not be Kirk Franklin today.
(07:02):
We all go through what we gothrough for a purpose.
It's not by accident.
No, it's not.
It's not by accident.
But his mom is shady.
That's all I got to say.
So that's just me.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I mean, mama is shady and was interesting and I've
looked at dialogue as we talkabout it.
Yes, so what was interesting?
His dad said I was a child whenI dated them.
He did so immediately.
I'm thinking did she takeadvantage of him?
You know what I'm saying?
(07:41):
You think about it from thatstandpoint because even as him,
he and Kirk were talking, hesaid I didn't know anything
about her being pregnant oranything of that nature.
So as a child he had thisexperience.
Now I'm going to play, I ain'tthinking about that.
So when you talk about mama andher choices, why Kirk don't talk
(08:03):
to her now and whatever it was,that part really stood out to
me and I was like, wow.
So and the father, like hebroke down and he was like if I
had known so all these years andhe had no problem saying you
(08:24):
know, if this is what it is, youpursue it.
So that, like I said, that partstuck out to me, the whole.
I was a child.
So now this child, he didn't gointo his experience because he
didn't make it about him.
He didn't make anything abouthim, and that's the part that.
That's the part that broke mewhen he said you determine who
(08:48):
you Give me access to.
This is about you, yep.
So the thing that I Guess brokeme in it when he said that I
reflected over my journey andand you know, a lot of times
through my journey, it wasn'tabout me, it was about the other
(09:09):
people and protecting theirfeelings and their, their, space
.
So my, my adopted mom didn'twant it because she felt Maybe
threatened to some degree.
So to protect her, I don't sayanything.
My adopted mom in my biologicalmom you know she wasn't ready
(09:29):
and now I know why, but it stillwas that.
No, yeah.
So in my head when Kirk'sfather said that it Wait on me
heavy, because I didn't, Ididn't have that.
It's about you right now.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, you know, I'm saying you know what, even in my
situation, it wasn't about me.
It was more about my adoptedmom because Whether and I mean I
can't say that she wasn't proudof who I was, but not proud
(10:11):
enough to say, hey, I adoptedher, I chose her out of any
other child I could have chosen.
But rather keep it a secretVersus making an adoption
something to celebrate.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
But then I actually do you think that adoption was
really Like, how did our culturelook at adoption?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
because even now it's not like really put out there
and promoted it's still not,because, typically, back then in
the 60s, in the 70s, it wasmore so a Shame it was, you know
, oh, we got hide the secretthat took place on this side,
(10:56):
right.
But then you have other peoplewho you know can't have children
, right, and say, well, sincethey messed up, or what have you
?
Whatever came to be for us tobe here?
Well, let's take that and makeit a positive for this couple
who can't conceive for whateverreason, right?
(11:17):
So I mean it has a purpose,because we're not born by
accident.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
No, we're not, but it does take.
And again, this is why it'sbeneficial to have those answers
, because when you don't, whenyou're unable to fill in the
blanks, you'll insert differentthings.
You will, and a lot of times,unfortunately, we go to the
negative of you know how I gothere, who I, who I could be, and
(11:47):
it's always, you know, and Iguess that's just a culture
thing as well where we assumethe worst.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
We do, we do, but we assume the worst because Society
and our history has Fostered itfor us to always assume the
worst.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I'm not saying that it's not Valid, the
thoughts, yeah.
But I think as as time hasevolved and we learn more and
we're more aware from the mentalhealth standpoint, you begin to
understand that, like you said,from a cultural standpoint,
everything that we'veexperienced takes us down this
journey.
But we have things in place tohelp us Do some positive
(12:28):
thinking to replace thosenegative, negative thoughts.
Yes, you know so, even you know.
Going back to the Kirk Franklinthing, I Remember, and you know
you share your experience, whenKirk got the call and he was
looking out the window and hewas like what, what?
He just kept saying, what, thatdisbelief that 50 I was Kirk,
(12:50):
56 he was saying no, fifty,fifty three, so fifty plus years
of Not knowing.
And then he even shared it wasanother guy.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
That he thought was that he thought he was by last,
but then he's like when he wason the man's on the death bed.
He said all I needed was that,that love and that you know,
that assurance, and the guyslike, yeah, understand.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
He said he didn't know why he couldn't get it.
I couldn't get to.
That wasn't his biologicalright, you know.
So again, it wasn't about Kirk,because if it was, he would
have said well, dude, I did thebest I could.
Exactly, I was just there tosupport he took it, took it to
his grave.
You know, maybe he knew what it, who knows?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
who knows, or you know, or even if he was, had a
little doubt.
Maybe I might not be his, butI'm not gonna bring that to him
right now.
You know, I'm saying as far asyou know.
He may not have been a hundredpercent sure that he was his
father.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Well, he could have had the car self.
I'm about to pass away.
It's about me.
This is what I need, you know.
I think that you know,selfishness can be subjective at
times.
They can, you know, because onecould say he had every right
and then one could say no, hedidn't.
And until you walk in that path, that for yourself you just
(14:11):
don't know, you just don't know,you don't know, you don't know.
So when you first found outyour information, like and I
call it that Kirk Franklinmoment, where he was like what,
what, what, what, when you'rewatching that, what did it?
Did stir up anything for you?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
or it did.
It stirred up that when I wentto to really go face-to-face to
my grandmother and she shut medown.
And then I went to my aunt andthat's when I was like First of
doing what, what, what?
I was like, you know, becauseyou're telling me now after all
(14:51):
these years, and Maya told methat Actual numbers or facts
matter, times and dates matter.
So, I had to really calculate.
So I was 37.
Okay, I've been around to 40,because it's easy to remember.
But okay, she said, no, mom,it's important.
(15:14):
Okay, so I was 37 at the timethat this all you know took
place.
So, at a 37 year old, withthree kids, a house or husband
and all this stuff, all of asudden you're gonna tell me that
the life that I lived beforeWas all alive.
Now, mind you, what also Istruggled with with Rick Kirk
(15:35):
Franklin is how he grew up, howhe struggled.
I Can't say that, right, youknow.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I'm saying we were blessed and that we were blessed
.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
But again, everybody's journey is not the
same, even though he turned outto be Kirk Franklin.
But his journey was a struggle.
But if he didn't have thatstruggle, do you think he would
have been able to put out themusic that he puts out today?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
You know God I guess had to take him Deep down, yes,
so that he could pull out whatwas laying dormant inside him.
You know it is.
You never look at somebody'sjourney and say, oh, I want that
.
You know people always say Iwant the patient of Job.
I don't want that because thatmeans I gotta do something that
Needs that much patience.
I don't need that much of mylife, exactly, but that's when
(16:25):
you are more mature, you'rethinking and you recognize that
these are the variables thatlead to that.
Yeah, you know he, he has agift and God is not going to
give gifts and not allow them tocome to the surface.
Yeah, so I agree with you.
I think that you know you hadto take him through that so that
(16:47):
that can come out.
You know, as much as we look ateverything that he has in the
public eye, that hurt that hesuffered with and probably still
is suffering, but remember whathe said now, I don't know if
you mentioned it in yours, but Iknow I did.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
No, you did too when we started speaking to our
biological mothers how we revertback to being kids again.
Remember he said I felt like Iwas 10 years old yeah, I'm 52
years old and that buzzed meanyway, because that's the same
thing I felt when I started,really, you know, when I met my
mother, all of a sudden I wentback to being a child again.
(17:26):
I'm a grown woman, like a child, I just want to be underneath
her and and you know, it's crazyhow that happens, and I'm sure
we're not the only ones.
Oh no, I'm sure that's a commonthing.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
But and again, this is why you have to put language
to Situations because, like yousaid, it's commonalities.
We just don't call it what itis.
Yeah, you know, you know youtalk about that when you revert
back.
So then, talking to mybiological mom, you know we text
back and forth and like she'llcall.
So I had texted her last monthand I said, hey, I'm about to.
(18:01):
I got a preach in two weeks, nopressure, but just wanted to
let you know.
And that's, I just was lettingher know.
So she calls me.
And she said Do you want me tocome?
And I was stuck like Is it yourquestion?
Like yeah, and she said all youhad to do is ask.
(18:21):
She says we're beyond that.
She says just ask.
And it was that moment of like amother helping their child
Navigate a tough situation, andit wasn't like a rapper man, but
it was her feeling confidentand comfortable enough to say,
no, this is what you need to doin this space, Right, and you
(18:42):
know she ended up coming and itwas just like that moment of I
felt like that child, oh, my momis here, right.
And I went to her prior to andI said, well, listen, I'm gonna
introduce my family.
She was like, um, she's like,it's not about me, don't even
mention.
I said, okay, no problem, and Isaid I don't want you to be
slighted, so I wanted to giveyou the option, you know, to
(19:03):
talk.
You know.
So that whole Not knowingbecause she didn't know what
other people's narrative wasabout it as well.
So again it goes back to thattaboo about what took place and
why was she back now and all ofthese different things.
And you know, at the end,because she met a few people
(19:24):
that were there and I told, Isaid that's my village that has
been with me on this journey,and she said everybody was just
so nice, everybody.
She said I felt like I was oncheers when everybody knew my
name and I said, well, they doknow.
You know, you know, and andthat's the part seeing Kirk
Interact with his mom, but hehadn't spoke for 20 years, over
(19:48):
20 years but then seeing how sheresponded, because All right,
after the first DNA test shewanted a second one, and then
she still wouldn't.
And he said if you can't give methis, like what you're arguing
with the facts.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
DNA don't lie, so doesn't lie.
And they did it twice and shewas still refusing.
And then her sister Right waslike like look, he just wants
the truth.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
So I guess the sister knows something.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Sisters always know something.
I'm just saying, okay, I'mputting it out there.
Okay, I'm just saying, no, theymaybe not, I don't know the way
she was talking.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I think she knew something.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
She knew something.
But obviously they always sayit's not my place to tell you,
especially if she's sittingright there.
What would it?
You see what I'm saying?
You're sitting right there andagain I don't know what the
sister relationship is.
All I know is she was likesaying look, he just wants the
(20:54):
truth.
So she's pleading with herabout saying it.
But again, that's her sister,she can't just over.
After all these years I wouldthink she would.
But again we don't know thedynamics of their relationship
so we can't say what she shouldhave done.
Correct, but Auntie got a littlehooded because even when she
(21:14):
got a little hooded she was like, excuse me.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
He was like Auntie.
She said okay, and I was likewow, he was like I'm 53 years
old.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
He's a custom now.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
You know, but that's a challenge, but I think and I
can't speak for you, but Ibelieve it's the same I think,
as a result of coming out ofthat secrecy, we fought,
especially in my house, and youcan share it if you did the same
we fought hard to have a levelof transparency, age-appropriate
(21:44):
transparency, but create adynamic where if you ask me a
question, I'm gonna answer it.
The answer may be not yet, butI'm still.
At least create that dynamicwhere you feel safe to ask,
whereas for me I didn't havethat luxury, it was because I
said so.
That was the answer.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Well, that was how it was.
That's the tell, what you know.
That was the culture.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
That was the culture you know you stay in a child's
place, like exactly, and I thinkthat you can still have a child
in their place, but you respondage appropriately because if
you put that stay in a child'splace, what it does, it hinders
their ability to advocate andask questions and explore For
that right, and when things ofthat nature happen, they're not
(22:33):
inept to say, hey, this iswhat's going on, you know, in my
life.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
And again that opens up another can of worms of
different things, unhealthythings.
So the way we grew up and theway our kids grew up now is it's
a different world, even thoughthey have more that they have to
deal with.
But they're a little bit moreaware of who they are Correct
(22:59):
and what you know.
Their self-awareness is wayfurther along than what ours are
.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
We're back then.
Well, they're exposed to somany more things.
They are, they are.
So it just opens up Pandora'sbox, Like the only thing we had
was that stack of encyclopedias.
If your parents invested andthey got, you know, they got at
their fingertips Exactly theworld.
They can go anywhere and doanything like in the moment
(23:27):
where we had history.
That was our teacher.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
That was our teacher.
You know you and all of itwasn't the good history because
it was missing a lot of gaps.
But getting back to Kirk, howhe handled his father when they
first met, you know how he stoodin front of the door and he
(23:54):
just had to get himself together.
The dad opened the door andhe's like hey, come on in.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
You know, like there's no people here, Because
at that point he still didn'tknow.
The dad didn't know, the daddidn't know.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
But Kirk did.
And he, I mean, he was like,okay, I need to get myself
together, right, I canunderstand that Mine didn't go
that way, mine, mine.
You would have thought in thatparticular situation, when my
mom and I first met for thefirst time face to face, that we
(24:25):
would probably hug and breakdown crying right there at the
door.
None of that happened.
It was like, oh, lisa's herefrom out of town, you know, like
it was no big deal.
I walked in, I gave her a hugLike I've seen her all my life,
we just coming home for aholiday, right, that's how it
(24:47):
was.
And then, you know, my siblingsand my nieces and nephews, they
were all there and you know Ihad my kids and my husband.
We all went there.
So it was just like it wasBusiness as usual.
Business as usual.
That was the crazy part, thatit just happened so naturally.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But it hits you there after, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
It hit me the next day.
Okay, yes, yeah, that was amoment.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I'm sure the adrenaline probably helped you
navigate in that moment.
But then, once that adrenalinewent away, yes, for both of us.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
We were in.
So I have an aunt who's a, hasher own church.
She's an apostle, and you knowme, we got there maybe on a
Saturday.
Now, like, well, wherever yougo, I'm going, cause she didn't
know I was coming.
The rest of the family knew,okay, it was for her, so it's a
surprise for her birthday.
(25:46):
Oh, wow.
So everybody else knew,everybody else is at the house,
you know.
And she opened the door andthere I was and it was like oh,
so again, childlike feelings,wherever you go, mom, I'm going
with you, I don't care where yougo, you we're there, right.
So he said, well, I'm going tochurch, great, let's go.
(26:09):
Fantastic, I'm going to beright there with you.
So, you know, she kind of toldmy aunt that we were coming to
her church and my grandmotherwas there, and it's a small
church, one big church, so ifthere's visitors, everybody
knows, and it was five of us.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, I thought y'all were singing.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
It was five of us and again, I'll reiterate, again,
it's a small church.
So we sat on the back row,right, and everybody was like,
okay, we got visitors.
Now, obviously my aunt knewRight, and my mom, she was
already there because she wasushering, okay, and you know,
(26:55):
she started preaching.
You know, service started andeverybody was, you know, doing a
normal service thing, and thenshe started preaching and I
remember that sermon was such atime as this, that was the name
of her sermon and she's, youknow, she was talking about
(27:17):
during a time, I think, for rockhad just rebelled and reelected
or something of that nature.
So she said, well, that waswhat she was going to preach
about.
But she went another way, soshe started walking up and down.
So she's, she's very prophetic,okay, all right, I am looking
(27:41):
at this woman.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
You already know it's about to come down to pipe.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I already know I am looking at her.
She starts off with Titus.
That was crazy, never met himbefore and she read him like a
book.
Wow, she called her son fromoff the pulpit and said minister
to minister, shake his hand.
(28:05):
I was like, wow, that was crazy.
She went to TC.
She spoke over him.
We're like went to my, shespoke over here.
Mind you, I'm not looking atthis woman.
She went to Jasmine, spoke,spoke over her.
I was like I'm at the end ofthe row.
(28:26):
That was about design.
She walks all the way around,comes back up.
I stand up.
She starts talking to me, Ibreak down and she just holds me
so close Like it was like mybreath was just coming from out
(28:48):
of me, it was being sucked outof me.
I was crying so hard and theneverybody was looking around
like what's this about, right?
What in the world?
So she said well, I don't knowif I can say it Again, still
saying I don't know if I can sayit.
I mean at this point At thispoint I was saying so all I hear
(29:09):
is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So she said well, this is well,she calls my mother over first,
right, just to make sure shecalls.
No, she calls my mother overfirst and, cause I was crying so
hard, she calls her over.
And then that's when my mom andI embraced and we just went
(29:29):
berserk.
So that's when she said I don'tknow if I can say it,
everybody's like, yes, say it.
So they said this is herdaughter, that she gave up for
adoption.
Church went crazy, everybodywent crazy.
I mean when I you know, this isnot that, it was what you would
(29:54):
have thought we would have didthe day before.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
And I was meant to happen there.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
And I mean it was just crazy.
It was crazy.
Then I met my grandmother andshe just went.
Oh, she kept going and rocking.
Thank you Jesus, thank youJesus, thank you Jesus, we'll
unpack that somewhere in themiddle of the night.
(30:20):
But yeah, it was crazy, you know, it's like she saw a ghost.
It was very, very intense.
And then the next day, when weleft and we, you know, we didn't
, honestly we didn't stay at herhouse, but we came over there
before we, you know, wereleaving and she just kept
(30:43):
hugging me.
She wouldn't let me go becausewe all got up, titus would say.
I just told them the kids tostick that down, because it
might take a minute, because we,she wouldn't let me go.
And all she kept saying is I'msorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
That's all she kept saying.
And I said don't worry about it, it's okay.
(31:06):
I'm here now, you know I'm herenow for you and I'm not, I'm not
going anywhere and it's all.
She kept saying I'm sorry, I'msorry, I'm sorry.
I said it's okay and she neededto hear me say that.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And it's interesting because that was a real emotion
for you, like that was yourreality, like it's okay, it's
it's it's okay.
And I think that is a testament.
Like you said, we were blessedwhere we don't have the.
You know the reality of my lifewas horrible and you had kept
me.
It would have been this andwould have been that People do
(31:47):
have that they do.
That wasn't and I'm thankful.
You know that wasn't my.
You know your journey and story.
But you hear people that areangry, that end up in the system
and nobody wants to.
You know, adopt them as theyget older.
Yes, you know they end uppotentially getting in trouble
or whatever it may be, and theyhave that.
You know you did this to me soI can respect the thought of I
(32:12):
need to apologize.
I need to apologize.
I was one of the things that mybiological mama shared, cause
like the first time I met her,you know was at my dad's funeral
.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yes, and I had the pleasure of being there, right.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
You're right, and I didn't know it was her until
after the fact and it just ittook me on a different space,
you know, and so much.
So I texted my brother and Iwas like hey, what's her number?
And he was like why?
I was like she came to thefuneral.
I want to say thank you.
(32:45):
So I'm going back to that 10,that child, where it's like
nobody else matters right now.
Yeah, you know, and after wetalked she said one for you to
be concerned, to say thank youto me for coming to your
father's funeral.
She said that pushed her to apoint where it was like like
(33:09):
whoa, she said her concern waswas I safe?
Was I okay, was I happy?
Those were what she worriedabout throughout my life.
Yeah, yeah, she said, and beingable to come and watch me do
the eulogy, being in that space,it answered all of her
(33:33):
questions.
And then this was God, becauseat the end of the eulogy I
turned around to the past and Isaid it's no secret that I was
adopted not knowing that she wasin a room.
I remember that that was notplanned in my outline, it was in
my head.
I needed to communicate thesignificance of my father,
(33:56):
always taking care of others buttrusting me, how he had trusted
me to give this eulogy.
So I wanted to tie it all backin, not knowing that it was a
confirmation yell to her.
I've always known I'm securingit, I'm thankful, whenever you
are ready, I'm here.
(34:17):
Yeah, and she said thatlistening to it, because
initially she said I was just.
She said I wasn't going to go,but something told me to go.
She said, and then I was justgoing to go in the back and
leave.
She said but then I sawsomebody that knew me, that knew
you, and I know they was goingto say something.
And then I heard your eulogy.
She said I had to stand in thatlong line and I had to come up
(34:37):
there and speak to you and in myhead I was like but if you had
just told me who you were inthat moment she was like no, it
wasn't about that.
So it's interesting and againI'm sure we'll dig deep into
that what it actually entails,because it was mind blowing.
That was my what, what moment.
(34:58):
It wasn't what I had when, whenI first got the file, but that
moment of she was here, I didn'trealize it Right, I missed it.
She was like this close.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
She gave me a hug, right, and I'm just like, oh my
gosh.
But then when we had thatsecond opportunity to sit down,
like you said, it was thatawkward.
I didn't give her a hug firstand I was like, okay, let's go.
We went to go eat and then atthe end I said I said kind of,
give her a hug.
And she was like, okay.
So it's that journey of bothpeople having their preconceived
(35:35):
notions and then being able tosuspend them and trust basically
, yeah, because they got totrust that she's going to.
It's a vulnerable moment Forboth.
That's what I'm saying.
It's a very vulnerable moment.
So you have to be able to trustwhat is inside of you of okay,
how do I navigate this space?
Speaker 1 (35:55):
and then be able to pick up on the social cues as
well.
Yeah, and that's important,because for me, from my
perspective and I'm not sayingthat I was dismissing her, but I
went so back to being a child,like it's like I didn't care
what she said, I didn't careabout her feelings.
(36:19):
You know what I'm saying.
I just wanted to be near you, Ijust wanted to lay in the bed
next to you.
You know what I'm saying?
Right, I just wanted to get youknow right in my bed, or, you
know, get off my bed, you're alittle bit too close.
I just met you.
You know, I didn't care, I didnot care at that point.
She didn't do any of that.
(36:40):
Right, you want to make up forlost time, but right.
That's it, and that's the onlything she would always say I
don't, I don't, you know I don'thave any money, or you know, I
have nothing to give you.
I said well, we're eatingbecause I don't have none either
.
I said but all I want is yourtime.
Right, and that's all I want isyour time.
(37:03):
And you know, unfortunately,well, fortunately, it's, it's
fortunate I did get our time.
I just didn't get enough timethat I thought I was to get.
But again, we can unpack thatat another time.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
So, going back to the Kirk Franklin documentary, he
gets the call, he's like, oh mygosh, this is real.
He goes and shares it with thepeople he's working with and you
can see them breaking down.
So I remember sharing with youand our crew yeah, you know they
.
This is where I met in theexcitement and it's almost
(37:44):
therapeutic, because when wetalk about that vulnerability, I
can't be vulnerable witheverybody.
This is a safe space.
Let me unpack it.
And even as you share it,you're picking up on how people
are responding and what they'relooking.
You know how they're looking.
So I'm watching and the peoplein the room are are crying and
(38:06):
they're supporting it.
And the young lady who was atthe funeral, you know they got
the information right.
You know Kirk expressed thatthey were close.
Yes, and just to watch her,because now she's like that
piece of the puzzle that wasmissing, to help open that gap,
help get a bridge.
Yeah, you know.
(38:27):
So I couldn't even imagine thejoy that you know she feels
because you know, if I wasn'tthere, you know who's to say
that she contemplated not goingthat day.
Who's to say that you know shewould have been like, yeah, I
got to leave early or I'm goingto get there later whatever man
Exactly.
But because she was in theright place at the right time
(38:48):
what God wanted her to be theyunlocked this other door.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
And the thing is, the funeral she was going to was
Kirk's aunt.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
But he said he didn't go because he figured his mom
was going to be there so hedidn't want to go.
And this I mean God put that onhis spirit so that this other
piece could take place, exactlyBecause if he and mom had been
there, none of that other stuffprobably would have happened,
because he probably wouldn'thave said anything, the dad,
anybody he would probably leftout, because the mom probably
(39:24):
would have caused a scene,because it's all about her, all
about her and you know.
But everything happened the wayit was supposed to happen.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Right and he was like he was shooting a documentary.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
And he said he'd never never done it before In
the 13 albums, never.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
And this crew was following him Everywhere.
You know, whatever, and Ialways say, you know, we like to
call the spirit by the wrongname because we'll say, well,
something told me and somethingthat's no, that was what name.
Oh, we know, the spirit is whatled you to do X, y and Z
Exactly.
Call it what it is, exactly.
You know, so that to watch thatjourney, like I said, for me it
(40:09):
was that pain of what's neverbeen about me.
It's always been controlled byother people the narratives,
yeah.
But then I have to fall back onmy face and say, well, maybe
that's what I needed.
You know what I'm saying.
If I'm gonna say, you know, godis in control, then I have to
(40:31):
understand that his ways are notmy ways and what he does will
not always be clear to me, but Ialways accept the fact that it
will always work off of my good.
Yes, yes.
So I look at it and you know Iwrestled with that thing.
When his father said youdetermine, this is about you, I
(40:53):
started crying, me and Janet, meand my wife are sitting there
and you know she got the tissue,you know, did the right thing,
but it was painful.
So after we watched it, shesaid you wanna talk?
And I said I don't know if Ishould be angry.
I said I don't know.
I said but that statement spokevolumes to me, you know.
(41:19):
And then spoke with a few otherpeople that have just kind of
talked to me on this journey andone of the guys said well, it's
like when you are grilling, allyou can do is put the meat in
the proper position, but on thisday it may take 30 minutes to
(41:43):
cook.
Next day it may take 45 minutesto cook.
You're not in control of all ofthe variables.
All you can do is put the meaton yeah.
All you can do is prepare ityeah.
Something else controls thosevariables, but the end result is
something great.
Great.
I said well, since you put itthat way.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
I mean, do you think that it resonated with you?
Because it was Kirk?
Speaker 2 (42:13):
and his father.
Absolutely so.
It was that I'm happy for Kirk,I celebrated, but that little
kid where maybe, if othersweren't controlling the
narrative, I could have had timeand found him before he
transitioned.
(42:33):
You know, that's and it's not ajudgment, that's just the
reality, exactly, and I think alot of times we get caught up in
, well, I shouldn't say this andthat.
No, that's a fact, that's avariable.
Yeah, that is Whether now, themotivation behind what, the
decision's where.
That's different.
I'm not talking about that.
(42:53):
I'm in this looking at thecards that are on the table.
If biological mom I mean if thedoctor and mom had said you
know what, we want you to findthem, I want you to do X, y and
Z prior to 2000 and I think hepassed away, 2009.
That would have been nine, 10,11, 12, 13, four to five years
(43:20):
of that dynamic.
Now, at that time, biologicalmom might have been ready, you
know what I'm saying.
So it might have caused moredamage.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
It could have caused more damage for sure.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Who's to say that biological dad was ready?
You know, I don't know whatthat aspect is, so I have to, at
this point, reserve the rightto say you know what, whatever
it's supposed to be, and that'swhen I say if God wants that
(43:53):
part to be revealed to you, youwill see it before you take your
last breath.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Correct, correct.
That's how I feel.
When it comes to my biologicalfather, I'm like, whether I do,
whether I don't, I'm OK with iteither way and I just put it in.
If it's meant for me to findout who he is, then it will
(44:19):
happen in due time.
Right now, I keep hittingroadblocks.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Did you do an SSD?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Oh, absolutely, I've done everything you can possibly
do.
Ok, I've done it, but as far asanswering, I can only get to
like second cousin and I'vespoken to, communicated to
cousins on my biologicalfather's parental side and my
(44:47):
biological father's paternalside, but I've only gotten to
second cousin.
So I haven't been able to bridgethat gap yet.
And just for what little bit Ido know.
I don't think we'll ever havehis DNA anywhere because he was
(45:07):
a roller stone.
So hopefully, maybe again.
If it's meant for me to know, Iwill know.
But as of right now, I've beenhitting roadblocks but I'm not
like, oh, I've got to find it.
If it happens, it happens.
If it doesn't, I'm still atpeace, there's so many other
(45:30):
blessings in the journey.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
You don't have that one piece.
It's not as devastating asstill you want to know.
Yeah, absolutely, you've beenblessed in other regards.
So, going back to Kirk Franklin, we talked about when he first
got the call how he was sharingwith people.
We talked about when he firstmet his dad, when he gave him
(45:53):
the envelope and shared yes, youare the father.
How they had to take a secondDNA test and then how the mom
didn't want to acknowledgeeither DNA test.
Talk to me about him and hisson.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Oh my goodness, yes that part.
That right there, consideringand I don't know how much of the
background of him and his son,who have been estranged for some
years.
You know, I heard the call.
Yeah, we all heard the call.
That's true, that did go viral.
(46:29):
So for that to happen I meantalking about healing right
there the healing startedclosing up instantaneously.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
His son said that's my grandfather.
He said that's all I need.
That's all I need, that's all.
I need and it's just like, assimple as it may sound, it was,
so significant it was, and Ithink that for people to watch
(47:06):
it being laid out, familydynamic is so powerful it is.
You know what I'm saying?
Because now you have threegenerations right there, right
there, and I guarantee they havemore common than they have not.
Yes, then have not yes.
So, as much as Kirk and his sonwere bumping heads, maybe the
(47:31):
son was thinking, if I had agrandfather to go and talk to,
kirk was probably saying if Ihad my father, it'd help me be a
better father.
Father, you know what I'msaying?
Yes, it's just so manyvariables, but it just shows to
me the power of a family bond,and you know what's funny?
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Well, it's not funny, but it's interesting that that
tape went viral for that day,because you know why.
That's how.
Again, that's how God works,because that wouldn't have not
(48:11):
happened.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
If it wasn't going to be this end result, the end
result that had to happen, sothat we could appreciate that
moment that much more.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Exactly, wow, exactly , it had to, and then the world
saw it all.
So if we didn't see the firstpart, yeah, Then we wouldn't
have understood the significanceof the second part Correct.
Thank god for the year.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Mind blowing, mind blowing, mind blowing.
And you know it's, I think,with and we talked earlier how
this generation and right now,everything is the information
age and you know so it createsquestions.
Yeah, so now, when you have thedynamics of family and people
(49:01):
are questioning well, how, whoyou got, ancestry, that are
filling the gaps, even then whenyou don't want to talk about it
, you know.
So now you look, there's aplatform of adoptees and
adoption.
You know, you have stories.
They don't come out and sayadoption, tracing your roots,
Right, they indirectly come withit, but at the core, it's about
(49:25):
a family that isnon-traditional.
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Yeah, and finally, we come froma non-traditional family.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
And speaking of non-traditional families.
So just this past Sunday, kerryWashington came out with her
book and she also, you know,spoke about her biological
father as a sperm donor from asperm bank.
Wow, that's a whole different.
That's different, right, andthat's not even you know.
(50:01):
They didn't tell us she wasadopted or anything, because she
wasn't adopted yeah, she wasn't, because she's even using the
words I'm searching for my spermdonor, not, you know, my
biological.
She just said sperm donor.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
But I guess you know, and by all means that's her
truth.
I'm not taking away from, I'mjust asking isn't he still the
biological father?
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I don't recall her saying biological father.
I don't recall that.
I remember her saying spermdonor because her mom said I
went to a sperm bank.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
I wondered does she carry shame because of you know,
it's just so rather.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So she said that you know she's known for five years.
Okay, and the only reason sheknows is because again, there's
a you know the show Finding yourRoots.
She was going to be on it, butyou know, when you do your DNA
and all that stuff, they track,they do a lot of well, she
wanted to get ahead of it butyou have to.
(51:07):
Everybody that's in your circle, your parents have.
Everybody has signed off on it.
Oh, so they were like wait aminute.
So so, um, this is, oh, Gates,that's his name.
So he went to go speak to herparents because they have to
sign off on it, and so the momwas like so, hypothetically,
(51:34):
let's talk about this here.
If someone you know went to asperm bank, but that you know,
would that make a difference?
Yes, it's going to make adifference, it's.
DNA.
He was like yes, she said so.
Well then, we're not signingoff on this, we're not doing it.
(51:56):
So I can't remember if he saidyou know my ass why I can't
remember.
But the next thing was, I thinkthey said well, you know her,
she was conceived by a spermdonor.
And I think they asked her whatdo you think you know I should,
we should do?
He said you should tell herRight.
(52:20):
Because, she's going to ask whywe're not going forth in this,
and that's why she's not.
Because DNA don't lie, I don'tcare how you slice it, how you
cut it, you can't change it.
So that's why I don'tunderstand Kirk Franklin's mom
Like oh no, this is not yourfather.
Are you stupid?
Speaker 2 (52:40):
Well, again, trauma, if she, you know, whatever
decisions that she, the patternsof her.
You know, true, you're right,and we're sitting on the other
side of the equation.
We are.
We're not having gone throughthe trauma that she experienced.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
And she probably has had it in her head for 53 years
that she believes it.
That's her true.
It's her truth, right?
So I stand back and say, no,she's not stupid, right?
But she's in her truth, and Idon't know if she's ever going
to reconcile with reality.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
If you don't reconcile with the fact that
your child is sitting in frontof you asking for years, and
then they took the DNA twice,and then the man who is the
father like he's just as calmand it's like look, hey, this is
what it is.
I'm here.
Nobody that I saw was attackingher.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
No one no.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
It was.
These are the cards that weredealt.
Just acknowledge it.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
So all I need you to do but then she makes it better.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
Oh, what a relationship with my son.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
So maybe she felt like the father coming in would
replace her.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
But she's been there for 20 years.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
And you're right.
But maybe she thought that thefather coming in would be in
position and push her furtheraway, because maybe the father
Well, yeah, I think about it,the father is established, the
father is, has appears to have amentally stable situation.
So maybe it's a reflection ofwell, if you're going to think,
(54:19):
if you're going to get close tohim, then I know I'm not going
to get close because I don'tknow, but again she goes.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
So you're going to use this to not have a
relationship with me.
But my thing is why didn't youhave a relationship with him for
the past 20 years?
Because I'm sure it wasn't that, because she's always been in
his life, he's always known whoshe was, but she came in and out
(54:50):
and out, in and out.
She never stayed because that'swhen he was with a distant
relative who was, I think, 80s,something like that, 60s,
something like that, was veryold.
I just don't understand how youhave a sister and obviously at
least we know of two sisters andnobody wanted to help with the
(55:14):
kid.
I don't understand.
Maybe you all were young, butonce you got older y'all know
what it's kid is, becauseapparently it was a distant
relative.
It was a relative.
Help me understand.
But he's trying to understandhow I fall through the cracks,
(55:35):
how I fall through the cracks, ababy fall through the cracks,
end up with this one lady, thisolder, older lady that said, oh
no, we're not going to let himgo in the system, but then no
one came back to get him becausethe auntie didn't look like she
was hurting for money.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
They look like they've done pretty well, pretty
well.
I'm just saying that's just melooking from the outside and I
just don't understand how theyall but then again, if Deborah
was on, whatever island she wason, maybe she pushed people away
(56:16):
and they were like you knowwhat, I ain't dealing with it?
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yeah, but even though you're not dealing with her,
what about him?
Who knows?
I don't know.
He's like he grew up by himself, which, on the flip side, I'm
grateful that he grew up byhimself, because we benefit from
his, we're benefit from his.
Unfortunately, we benefit fromhis pain.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
So you know, and I don't know if we can wrap up I'm
thinking about how adoption hasbeen portrayed in the media,
right, because now they'retalking about it, we're all you
know, a big mental healthstandpoint.
Yeah, so I can only think oftwo, ironically, sitcoms that
addressed adoption, and theyboth were white.
(57:04):
Families with a black child,different strokes and Webster,
yeah, how you know that.
That speaks volumes, and whatit says to me is that the
perception is that you can't, wecan, we'll take care of it.
You know, we have the fuck is.
Both were financially stable.
They were, you know whatPapadopoulos was, a judge.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
So, yes, he had money , yeah, drumming was a
businessman, Right.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
So this you know, we're going to go and we'll take
care of it.
I don't even remember how he,how he got Webster I don't know
if it was.
I'm going to have to look thatup.
We'll talk about that when wetalk about media adoption.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
But I was sitting here thinking about how it's
portrayed and it creates thisnarrative because I remember
Willis and I'm going back andthey would meet their mom and
Arnold really didn't know andyou know that whole dynamic.
But that's going to be a greatepisode, so make sure y'all tune
in on this one.
Yes, because yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
And there's a lot of reality ones too.
Now now Tom Cruise.
Yeah, they adopted Angela Jolie, Sandra Bullock, they.
So, yeah, you definitely we'regoing to.
That's going to be a good one,even in the shot.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
I don't know if you watched the shot.
Speaker 1 (58:19):
I do not.
We'll talk about that, that'sokay.
Okay, I'm a binge watcher queenso I can binge watch it real
quick.
Speaker 2 (58:27):
I'm talking about six seasons.
I'm going to season five, okay,but yeah, watch it.
It's pretty awesome.
Okay, all right.
So, yeah, this has been a goodepisode and I think it goes to
show the relevance of you know,these adoption stories and
truths.
Speaker 1 (58:44):
Yeah, they, and with the technology of today they are
starting to reveal themselves.
Yeah, so I'm just saying somepeople may want to get ahead of
it.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
Yeah, you're right.
Go ahead and speak your truthSpeak your truth now, wherever
hold your peace.
Hey, own it and it's okay, it'sall right.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
It's all right, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (59:09):
So again we want to thank you all for just coming
into our conversation and wehope that it makes you think and
hope, we hope that it inspiresyou and we also hope that, if
maybe you're not the adoptee,but you know somebody and it
gives you a better understandinginto their thought process.
So on that note, I'm John andI'm Lisa.
(59:29):
And so I'm adopted.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
We're adopted, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
See you next time yeah.
Welcome to the so Unadopted podcast where we talk
everything adoption.
This journey is not one we takealone.
Together, we grapple with rawemotions that surface from
adoption stories I want you tobe comfortable enough to hear,
so sit back and go with us onthis journey as we dive deep
into adoption.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hey, so welcome again to another episode of so
Unadopted podcast.
I'm Lisa, I'm John, andtogether we are adopted.
So again, we wanted to create aspace for adoptions, truths,
and to be able to share them.
(01:03):
Even though we both have acommon denominator in this whole
situation which we are adopted,our stories are definitely
different and we just wanted tobe able to share our stories and
want others to probably comeand tell us about their stories
as well.
But we're just going to startoff with our stories and then
(01:26):
we'll go from there.
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Our stories give the validations of why we're able to
speak about this platform, andthis podcast is where we will
hear adoption truths from otheradoptees, adoptive parents and
birth parents and families,because everybody's impacted
differently with regards to theconcept of adoption.
We will also hear input fromlicensed professionals such as
(01:51):
psychologists, social workers,to get a deeper understanding of
the adoption journey, becausethere's so many different levels
and players in that journeythat you go on.
Hopefully, these stories andperspectives will give hope,
understanding and courage tothose who share our adopted or
(02:11):
are considering adoption, alongwith the journey of acceptance,
reconciliation and maintenanceof being adopted.
Those are the pillars thatwe're defining that during that
journey, you will experienceit's not to say that you won't
experience others, but againthat journey of acceptance, when
you first find out thatreconciliation, whether it's
with those adopted parents,whether it's with the biological
(02:35):
parents, even with yourself,and then the maintenance of
being adopted.
Once you come to terms witheverything you accepted, then
what happens with the rest ofyour life?
Do you talk about it?
Do you help others as they gothrough the journey?
All of those variables are whatwe have defined as pillars in
the commonalities of ourjourneys.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes, and so today we did discuss our last episode
that we're going to talk about,when we actually met our
biological mothers.
But before we get to ourpersonal stories, because just
recently Kirk Franklin had theopportunity to document him
(03:21):
meeting his father for the firsttime his biological father and
that I mean I couldn't text youfast enough to send that to you.
So let's deep dive into that,shall we?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Shall we, let's deep dive.
So I'm going to ask you whatwas your perspective?
And again, having heard ourstories and the journeys, what
was your first and foremost?
When you first got the conceptof Father's Day, I didn't know
what to expect.
I know he's got an album comingout, so I'm excited because I'm
(03:56):
like all right, I'm about toget some new music Music what
had no idea the depths that hewas going to take us.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
For some reason I had kind of a thought that it was
going to be him finding hisfather.
I knew it had something to dowith that I don't know why it's
Father's Day.
I knew that he didn't.
You know he was adopted andthings of that nature.
So I kind of had an idea, but Iwasn't sure.
So I wasn't surprised.
(04:27):
Surprised, but how it all cameabout, that was amazing.
That was a shocker.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
We encourage you to go to YouTube and watch the
documentary to give you someunderstanding.
Don't let this be the spoiler.
You need to watch it so you canhave your own independent
feelings.
We'll share ours.
So I would encourage you andyou don't have most people say
stop this podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Father's Day.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, stop this on pause, we'll pause for one
second and go to YouTube Right.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Watch it because it's and we'll wait until you come
back.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right, you're going to rob yourself if you don't
watch it, to have your ownemotional tie to it.
Yes, so talk to me about howyou felt watching it.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
You know me, I'm a big crybaby, so I was crying
through the whole thing.
It's just how he talked about.
It was a small town he grew upin and what really struck me was
how he kept saying how did thisone little baby and nobody know
about this one little baby fallthrough the cracks?
(05:28):
I don't understand it.
He just couldn't wrap his headaround that In this small town,
nobody knew that this woman waspregnant, nobody knew and how.
His father was at a funeral andsaid oh, you know what I'm used
to date and I can't rememberhis mother's name Deborah,
(05:51):
deborah, just like that.
All these years no onequestioned it.
Now I understand about peoplenot questioning things.
Correct.
What's true about?
it I want to be in your business.
But just in my journey no onewanted to question.
Well, no one did question mynucleus of a family growing up
(06:13):
because we kind of we didn'treally look alike but our
complexions were the same, so noone questioned that.
So I kind of understand why noone would question in this town.
You're seeing this man all overthe world.
You're not going to like, hmm,let me hear his look familiar.
(06:39):
You know what I'm saying.
But God does things the way hedoes things for a reason.
That's the truth.
The first thing that came to mymind is, if Kirk didn't go down
the path that he went down, hemay not be Kirk Franklin today.
(07:02):
We all go through what we gothrough for a purpose.
It's not by accident.
No, it's not.
It's not by accident.
But his mom is shady.
That's all I got to say.
So that's just me.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I mean, mama is shady and was interesting and I've
looked at dialogue as we talkabout it.
Yes, so what was interesting?
His dad said I was a child whenI dated them.
He did so immediately.
I'm thinking did she takeadvantage of him?
You know what I'm saying?
(07:41):
You think about it from thatstandpoint because even as him,
he and Kirk were talking, hesaid I didn't know anything
about her being pregnant oranything of that nature.
So as a child he had thisexperience.
Now I'm going to play, I ain'tthinking about that.
So when you talk about mama andher choices, why Kirk don't talk
(08:03):
to her now and whatever it was,that part really stood out to
me and I was like, wow.
So and the father, like hebroke down and he was like if I
had known so all these years andhe had no problem saying you
(08:24):
know, if this is what it is, youpursue it.
So that, like I said, that partstuck out to me, the whole.
I was a child.
So now this child, he didn't gointo his experience because he
didn't make it about him.
He didn't make anything abouthim, and that's the part that.
That's the part that broke mewhen he said you determine who
(08:48):
you Give me access to.
This is about you, yep.
So the thing that I Guess brokeme in it when he said that I
reflected over my journey andand you know, a lot of times
through my journey, it wasn'tabout me, it was about the other
(09:09):
people and protecting theirfeelings and their, their, space
.
So my, my adopted mom didn'twant it because she felt Maybe
threatened to some degree.
So to protect her, I don't sayanything.
My adopted mom in my biologicalmom you know she wasn't ready
(09:29):
and now I know why, but it stillwas that.
No, yeah.
So in my head when Kirk'sfather said that it Wait on me
heavy, because I didn't, Ididn't have that.
It's about you right now.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, you know, I'm saying you know what, even in my
situation, it wasn't about me.
It was more about my adoptedmom because Whether and I mean I
can't say that she wasn't proudof who I was, but not proud
(10:11):
enough to say, hey, I adoptedher, I chose her out of any
other child I could have chosen.
But rather keep it a secretVersus making an adoption
something to celebrate.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
But then I actually do you think that adoption was
really Like, how did our culturelook at adoption?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
because even now it's not like really put out there
and promoted it's still not,because, typically, back then in
the 60s, in the 70s, it wasmore so a Shame it was, you know
, oh, we got hide the secretthat took place on this side,
(10:56):
right.
But then you have other peoplewho you know can't have children
, right, and say, well, sincethey messed up, or what have you
?
Whatever came to be for us tobe here?
Well, let's take that and makeit a positive for this couple
who can't conceive for whateverreason, right?
(11:17):
So I mean it has a purpose,because we're not born by
accident.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
No, we're not, but it does take.
And again, this is why it'sbeneficial to have those answers
, because when you don't, whenyou're unable to fill in the
blanks, you'll insert differentthings.
You will, and a lot of times,unfortunately, we go to the
negative of you know how I gothere, who I, who I could be, and
(11:47):
it's always, you know, and Iguess that's just a culture
thing as well where we assumethe worst.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
We do, we do, but we assume the worst because Society
and our history has Fostered itfor us to always assume the
worst.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I'm not saying that it's not Valid, the
thoughts, yeah.
But I think as as time hasevolved and we learn more and
we're more aware from the mentalhealth standpoint, you begin to
understand that, like you said,from a cultural standpoint,
everything that we'veexperienced takes us down this
journey.
But we have things in place tohelp us Do some positive
(12:28):
thinking to replace thosenegative, negative thoughts.
Yes, you know so, even you know.
Going back to the Kirk Franklinthing, I Remember, and you know
you share your experience, whenKirk got the call and he was
looking out the window and hewas like what, what?
He just kept saying, what, thatdisbelief that 50 I was Kirk,
(12:50):
56 he was saying no, fifty,fifty three, so fifty plus years
of Not knowing.
And then he even shared it wasanother guy.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
That he thought was that he thought he was by last,
but then he's like when he wason the man's on the death bed.
He said all I needed was that,that love and that you know,
that assurance, and the guyslike, yeah, understand.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
He said he didn't know why he couldn't get it.
I couldn't get to.
That wasn't his biologicalright, you know.
So again, it wasn't about Kirk,because if it was, he would
have said well, dude, I did thebest I could.
Exactly, I was just there tosupport he took it, took it to
his grave.
You know, maybe he knew what it, who knows?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
who knows, or you know, or even if he was, had a
little doubt.
Maybe I might not be his, butI'm not gonna bring that to him
right now.
You know, I'm saying as far asyou know.
He may not have been a hundredpercent sure that he was his
father.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Well, he could have had the car self.
I'm about to pass away.
It's about me.
This is what I need, you know.
I think that you know,selfishness can be subjective at
times.
They can, you know, because onecould say he had every right
and then one could say no, hedidn't.
And until you walk in that path, that for yourself you just
(14:11):
don't know, you just don't know,you don't know, you don't know.
So when you first found outyour information, like and I
call it that Kirk Franklinmoment, where he was like what,
what, what, what, when you'rewatching that, what did it?
Did stir up anything for you?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
or it did.
It stirred up that when I wentto to really go face-to-face to
my grandmother and she shut medown.
And then I went to my aunt andthat's when I was like First of
doing what, what, what?
I was like, you know, becauseyou're telling me now after all
(14:51):
these years, and Maya told methat Actual numbers or facts
matter, times and dates matter.
So, I had to really calculate.
So I was 37.
Okay, I've been around to 40,because it's easy to remember.
But okay, she said, no, mom,it's important.
(15:14):
Okay, so I was 37 at the timethat this all you know took
place.
So, at a 37 year old, withthree kids, a house or husband
and all this stuff, all of asudden you're gonna tell me that
the life that I lived beforeWas all alive.
Now, mind you, what also Istruggled with with Rick Kirk
(15:35):
Franklin is how he grew up, howhe struggled.
I Can't say that, right, youknow.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I'm saying we were blessed and that we were blessed
.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
But again, everybody's journey is not the
same, even though he turned outto be Kirk Franklin.
But his journey was a struggle.
But if he didn't have thatstruggle, do you think he would
have been able to put out themusic that he puts out today?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
You know God I guess had to take him Deep down, yes,
so that he could pull out whatwas laying dormant inside him.
You know it is.
You never look at somebody'sjourney and say, oh, I want that
.
You know people always say Iwant the patient of Job.
I don't want that because thatmeans I gotta do something that
Needs that much patience.
I don't need that much of mylife, exactly, but that's when
(16:25):
you are more mature, you'rethinking and you recognize that
these are the variables thatlead to that.
Yeah, you know he, he has agift and God is not going to
give gifts and not allow them tocome to the surface.
Yeah, so I agree with you.
I think that you know you hadto take him through that so that
(16:47):
that can come out.
You know, as much as we look ateverything that he has in the
public eye, that hurt that hesuffered with and probably still
is suffering, but remember whathe said now, I don't know if
you mentioned it in yours, but Iknow I did.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
No, you did too when we started speaking to our
biological mothers how we revertback to being kids again.
Remember he said I felt like Iwas 10 years old yeah, I'm 52
years old and that buzzed meanyway, because that's the same
thing I felt when I started,really, you know, when I met my
mother, all of a sudden I wentback to being a child again.
(17:26):
I'm a grown woman, like a child, I just want to be underneath
her and and you know, it's crazyhow that happens, and I'm sure
we're not the only ones.
Oh no, I'm sure that's a commonthing.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
But and again, this is why you have to put language
to Situations because, like yousaid, it's commonalities.
We just don't call it what itis.
Yeah, you know, you know youtalk about that when you revert
back.
So then, talking to mybiological mom, you know we text
back and forth and like she'llcall.
So I had texted her last monthand I said, hey, I'm about to.
(18:01):
I got a preach in two weeks, nopressure, but just wanted to
let you know.
And that's, I just was lettingher know.
So she calls me.
And she said Do you want me tocome?
And I was stuck like Is it yourquestion?
Like yeah, and she said all youhad to do is ask.
(18:21):
She says we're beyond that.
She says just ask.
And it was that moment of like amother helping their child
Navigate a tough situation, andit wasn't like a rapper man, but
it was her feeling confidentand comfortable enough to say,
no, this is what you need to doin this space, Right, and you
(18:42):
know she ended up coming and itwas just like that moment of I
felt like that child, oh, my momis here, right.
And I went to her prior to andI said, well, listen, I'm gonna
introduce my family.
She was like, um, she's like,it's not about me, don't even
mention.
I said, okay, no problem, and Isaid I don't want you to be
slighted, so I wanted to giveyou the option, you know, to
(19:03):
talk.
You know.
So that whole Not knowingbecause she didn't know what
other people's narrative wasabout it as well.
So again it goes back to thattaboo about what took place and
why was she back now and all ofthese different things.
And you know, at the end,because she met a few people
(19:24):
that were there and I told, Isaid that's my village that has
been with me on this journey,and she said everybody was just
so nice, everybody.
She said I felt like I was oncheers when everybody knew my
name and I said, well, they doknow.
You know, you know, and andthat's the part seeing Kirk
Interact with his mom, but hehadn't spoke for 20 years, over
(19:48):
20 years but then seeing how sheresponded, because All right,
after the first DNA test shewanted a second one, and then
she still wouldn't.
And he said if you can't give methis, like what you're arguing
with the facts.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
DNA don't lie, so doesn't lie.
And they did it twice and shewas still refusing.
And then her sister Right waslike like look, he just wants
the truth.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
So I guess the sister knows something.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Sisters always know something.
I'm just saying, okay, I'mputting it out there.
Okay, I'm just saying, no, theymaybe not, I don't know the way
she was talking.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I think she knew something.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
She knew something.
But obviously they always sayit's not my place to tell you,
especially if she's sittingright there.
What would it?
You see what I'm saying?
You're sitting right there andagain I don't know what the
sister relationship is.
All I know is she was likesaying look, he just wants the
(20:54):
truth.
So she's pleading with herabout saying it.
But again, that's her sister,she can't just over.
After all these years I wouldthink she would.
But again we don't know thedynamics of their relationship
so we can't say what she shouldhave done.
Correct, but Auntie got a littlehooded because even when she
(21:14):
got a little hooded she was like, excuse me.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
He was like Auntie.
She said okay, and I was likewow, he was like I'm 53 years
old.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
He's a custom now.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
You know, but that's a challenge, but I think and I
can't speak for you, but Ibelieve it's the same I think,
as a result of coming out ofthat secrecy, we fought,
especially in my house, and youcan share it if you did the same
we fought hard to have a levelof transparency, age-appropriate
(21:44):
transparency, but create adynamic where if you ask me a
question, I'm gonna answer it.
The answer may be not yet, butI'm still.
At least create that dynamicwhere you feel safe to ask,
whereas for me I didn't havethat luxury, it was because I
said so.
That was the answer.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Well, that was how it was.
That's the tell, what you know.
That was the culture.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
That was the culture you know you stay in a child's
place, like exactly, and I thinkthat you can still have a child
in their place, but you respondage appropriately because if
you put that stay in a child'splace, what it does, it hinders
their ability to advocate andask questions and explore For
that right, and when things ofthat nature happen, they're not
(22:33):
inept to say, hey, this iswhat's going on, you know, in my
life.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
And again that opens up another can of worms of
different things, unhealthythings.
So the way we grew up and theway our kids grew up now is it's
a different world, even thoughthey have more that they have to
deal with.
But they're a little bit moreaware of who they are Correct
(22:59):
and what you know.
Their self-awareness is wayfurther along than what ours are
.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
We're back then.
Well, they're exposed to somany more things.
They are, they are.
So it just opens up Pandora'sbox, Like the only thing we had
was that stack of encyclopedias.
If your parents invested andthey got, you know, they got at
their fingertips Exactly theworld.
They can go anywhere and doanything like in the moment
(23:27):
where we had history.
That was our teacher.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
That was our teacher.
You know you and all of itwasn't the good history because
it was missing a lot of gaps.
But getting back to Kirk, howhe handled his father when they
first met, you know how he stoodin front of the door and he
(23:54):
just had to get himself together.
The dad opened the door andhe's like hey, come on in.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
You know, like there's no people here, Because
at that point he still didn'tknow.
The dad didn't know, the daddidn't know.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
But Kirk did.
And he, I mean, he was like,okay, I need to get myself
together, right, I canunderstand that Mine didn't go
that way, mine, mine.
You would have thought in thatparticular situation, when my
mom and I first met for thefirst time face to face, that we
(24:25):
would probably hug and breakdown crying right there at the
door.
None of that happened.
It was like, oh, lisa's herefrom out of town, you know, like
it was no big deal.
I walked in, I gave her a hugLike I've seen her all my life,
we just coming home for aholiday, right, that's how it
(24:47):
was.
And then, you know, my siblingsand my nieces and nephews, they
were all there and you know Ihad my kids and my husband.
We all went there.
So it was just like it wasBusiness as usual.
Business as usual.
That was the crazy part, thatit just happened so naturally.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But it hits you there after, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
It hit me the next day.
Okay, yes, yeah, that was amoment.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I'm sure the adrenaline probably helped you
navigate in that moment.
But then, once that adrenalinewent away, yes, for both of us.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
We were in.
So I have an aunt who's a, hasher own church.
She's an apostle, and you knowme, we got there maybe on a
Saturday.
Now, like, well, wherever yougo, I'm going, cause she didn't
know I was coming.
The rest of the family knew,okay, it was for her, so it's a
surprise for her birthday.
(25:46):
Oh, wow.
So everybody else knew,everybody else is at the house,
you know.
And she opened the door andthere I was and it was like oh,
so again, childlike feelings,wherever you go, mom, I'm going
with you, I don't care where yougo, you we're there, right.
So he said, well, I'm going tochurch, great, let's go.
(26:09):
Fantastic, I'm going to beright there with you.
So, you know, she kind of toldmy aunt that we were coming to
her church and my grandmotherwas there, and it's a small
church, one big church, so ifthere's visitors, everybody
knows, and it was five of us.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, I thought y'all were singing.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
It was five of us and again, I'll reiterate, again,
it's a small church.
So we sat on the back row,right, and everybody was like,
okay, we got visitors.
Now, obviously my aunt knewRight, and my mom, she was
already there because she wasushering, okay, and you know,
(26:55):
she started preaching.
You know, service started andeverybody was, you know, doing a
normal service thing, and thenshe started preaching and I
remember that sermon was such atime as this, that was the name
of her sermon and she's, youknow, she was talking about
(27:17):
during a time, I think, for rockhad just rebelled and reelected
or something of that nature.
So she said, well, that waswhat she was going to preach
about.
But she went another way, soshe started walking up and down.
So she's, she's very prophetic,okay, all right, I am looking
(27:41):
at this woman.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
You already know it's about to come down to pipe.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I already know I am looking at her.
She starts off with Titus.
That was crazy, never met himbefore and she read him like a
book.
Wow, she called her son fromoff the pulpit and said minister
to minister, shake his hand.
(28:05):
I was like, wow, that was crazy.
She went to TC.
She spoke over him.
We're like went to my, shespoke over here.
Mind you, I'm not looking atthis woman.
She went to Jasmine, spoke,spoke over her.
I was like I'm at the end ofthe row.
(28:26):
That was about design.
She walks all the way around,comes back up.
I stand up.
She starts talking to me, Ibreak down and she just holds me
so close Like it was like mybreath was just coming from out
(28:48):
of me, it was being sucked outof me.
I was crying so hard and theneverybody was looking around
like what's this about, right?
What in the world?
So she said well, I don't knowif I can say it Again, still
saying I don't know if I can sayit.
I mean at this point At thispoint I was saying so all I hear
(29:09):
is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So she said well, this is well,she calls my mother over first,
right, just to make sure shecalls.
No, she calls my mother overfirst and, cause I was crying so
hard, she calls her over.
And then that's when my mom andI embraced and we just went
(29:29):
berserk.
So that's when she said I don'tknow if I can say it,
everybody's like, yes, say it.
So they said this is herdaughter, that she gave up for
adoption.
Church went crazy, everybodywent crazy.
I mean when I you know, this isnot that, it was what you would
(29:54):
have thought we would have didthe day before.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
And I was meant to happen there.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
And I mean it was just crazy.
It was crazy.
Then I met my grandmother andshe just went.
Oh, she kept going and rocking.
Thank you Jesus, thank youJesus, thank you Jesus, we'll
unpack that somewhere in themiddle of the night.
(30:20):
But yeah, it was crazy, you know, it's like she saw a ghost.
It was very, very intense.
And then the next day, when weleft and we, you know, we didn't
, honestly we didn't stay at herhouse, but we came over there
before we, you know, wereleaving and she just kept
(30:43):
hugging me.
She wouldn't let me go becausewe all got up, titus would say.
I just told them the kids tostick that down, because it
might take a minute, because we,she wouldn't let me go.
And all she kept saying is I'msorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
That's all she kept saying.
And I said don't worry about it, it's okay.
(31:06):
I'm here now, you know I'm herenow for you and I'm not, I'm not
going anywhere and it's all.
She kept saying I'm sorry, I'msorry, I'm sorry.
I said it's okay and she neededto hear me say that.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And it's interesting because that was a real emotion
for you, like that was yourreality, like it's okay, it's
it's it's okay.
And I think that is a testament.
Like you said, we were blessedwhere we don't have the.
You know the reality of my lifewas horrible and you had kept
me.
It would have been this andwould have been that People do
(31:47):
have that they do.
That wasn't and I'm thankful.
You know that wasn't my.
You know your journey and story.
But you hear people that areangry, that end up in the system
and nobody wants to.
You know, adopt them as theyget older.
Yes, you know they end uppotentially getting in trouble
or whatever it may be, and theyhave that.
You know you did this to me soI can respect the thought of I
(32:12):
need to apologize.
I need to apologize.
I was one of the things that mybiological mama shared, cause
like the first time I met her,you know was at my dad's funeral
.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yes, and I had the pleasure of being there, right.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
You're right, and I didn't know it was her until
after the fact and it just ittook me on a different space,
you know, and so much.
So I texted my brother and Iwas like hey, what's her number?
And he was like why?
I was like she came to thefuneral.
I want to say thank you.
(32:45):
So I'm going back to that 10,that child, where it's like
nobody else matters right now.
Yeah, you know, and after wetalked she said one for you to
be concerned, to say thank youto me for coming to your
father's funeral.
She said that pushed her to apoint where it was like like
(33:09):
whoa, she said her concern waswas I safe?
Was I okay, was I happy?
Those were what she worriedabout throughout my life.
Yeah, yeah, she said, and beingable to come and watch me do
the eulogy, being in that space,it answered all of her
(33:33):
questions.
And then this was God, becauseat the end of the eulogy I
turned around to the past and Isaid it's no secret that I was
adopted not knowing that she wasin a room.
I remember that that was notplanned in my outline, it was in
my head.
I needed to communicate thesignificance of my father,
(33:56):
always taking care of others buttrusting me, how he had trusted
me to give this eulogy.
So I wanted to tie it all backin, not knowing that it was a
confirmation yell to her.
I've always known I'm securingit, I'm thankful, whenever you
are ready, I'm here.
(34:17):
Yeah, and she said thatlistening to it, because
initially she said I was just.
She said I wasn't going to go,but something told me to go.
She said, and then I was justgoing to go in the back and
leave.
She said but then I sawsomebody that knew me, that knew
you, and I know they was goingto say something.
And then I heard your eulogy.
She said I had to stand in thatlong line and I had to come up
(34:37):
there and speak to you and in myhead I was like but if you had
just told me who you were inthat moment she was like no, it
wasn't about that.
So it's interesting and againI'm sure we'll dig deep into
that what it actually entails,because it was mind blowing.
That was my what, what moment.
(34:58):
It wasn't what I had when, whenI first got the file, but that
moment of she was here, I didn'trealize it Right, I missed it.
She was like this close.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
She gave me a hug, right, and I'm just like, oh my
gosh.
But then when we had thatsecond opportunity to sit down,
like you said, it was thatawkward.
I didn't give her a hug firstand I was like, okay, let's go.
We went to go eat and then atthe end I said I said kind of,
give her a hug.
And she was like, okay.
So it's that journey of bothpeople having their preconceived
(35:35):
notions and then being able tosuspend them and trust basically
, yeah, because they got totrust that she's going to.
It's a vulnerable moment Forboth.
That's what I'm saying.
It's a very vulnerable moment.
So you have to be able to trustwhat is inside of you of okay,
how do I navigate this space?
Speaker 1 (35:55):
and then be able to pick up on the social cues as
well.
Yeah, and that's important,because for me, from my
perspective and I'm not sayingthat I was dismissing her, but I
went so back to being a child,like it's like I didn't care
what she said, I didn't careabout her feelings.
(36:19):
You know what I'm saying.
I just wanted to be near you, Ijust wanted to lay in the bed
next to you.
You know what I'm saying?
Right, I just wanted to get youknow right in my bed, or, you
know, get off my bed, you're alittle bit too close.
I just met you.
You know, I didn't care, I didnot care at that point.
She didn't do any of that.
(36:40):
Right, you want to make up forlost time, but right.
That's it, and that's the onlything she would always say I
don't, I don't, you know I don'thave any money, or you know, I
have nothing to give you.
I said well, we're eatingbecause I don't have none either
.
I said but all I want is yourtime.
Right, and that's all I want isyour time.
(37:03):
And you know, unfortunately,well, fortunately, it's, it's
fortunate I did get our time.
I just didn't get enough timethat I thought I was to get.
But again, we can unpack thatat another time.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
So, going back to the Kirk Franklin documentary, he
gets the call, he's like, oh mygosh, this is real.
He goes and shares it with thepeople he's working with and you
can see them breaking down.
So I remember sharing with youand our crew yeah, you know they
.
This is where I met in theexcitement and it's almost
(37:44):
therapeutic, because when wetalk about that vulnerability, I
can't be vulnerable witheverybody.
This is a safe space.
Let me unpack it.
And even as you share it,you're picking up on how people
are responding and what they'relooking.
You know how they're looking.
So I'm watching and the peoplein the room are are crying and
(38:06):
they're supporting it.
And the young lady who was atthe funeral, you know they got
the information right.
You know Kirk expressed thatthey were close.
Yes, and just to watch her,because now she's like that
piece of the puzzle that wasmissing, to help open that gap,
help get a bridge.
Yeah, you know.
(38:27):
So I couldn't even imagine thejoy that you know she feels
because you know, if I wasn'tthere, you know who's to say
that she contemplated not goingthat day.
Who's to say that you know shewould have been like, yeah, I
got to leave early or I'm goingto get there later whatever man
Exactly.
But because she was in theright place at the right time
(38:48):
what God wanted her to be theyunlocked this other door.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
And the thing is, the funeral she was going to was
Kirk's aunt.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
But he said he didn't go because he figured his mom
was going to be there so hedidn't want to go.
And this I mean God put that onhis spirit so that this other
piece could take place, exactlyBecause if he and mom had been
there, none of that other stuffprobably would have happened,
because he probably wouldn'thave said anything, the dad,
anybody he would probably leftout, because the mom probably
(39:24):
would have caused a scene,because it's all about her, all
about her and you know.
But everything happened the wayit was supposed to happen.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Right and he was like he was shooting a documentary.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
And he said he'd never never done it before In
the 13 albums, never.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
And this crew was following him Everywhere.
You know, whatever, and Ialways say, you know, we like to
call the spirit by the wrongname because we'll say, well,
something told me and somethingthat's no, that was what name.
Oh, we know, the spirit is whatled you to do X, y and Z
Exactly.
Call it what it is, exactly.
You know, so that to watch thatjourney, like I said, for me it
(40:09):
was that pain of what's neverbeen about me.
It's always been controlled byother people the narratives,
yeah.
But then I have to fall back onmy face and say, well, maybe
that's what I needed.
You know what I'm saying.
If I'm gonna say, you know, godis in control, then I have to
(40:31):
understand that his ways are notmy ways and what he does will
not always be clear to me, but Ialways accept the fact that it
will always work off of my good.
Yes, yes.
So I look at it and you know Iwrestled with that thing.
When his father said youdetermine, this is about you, I
(40:53):
started crying, me and Janet, meand my wife are sitting there
and you know she got the tissue,you know, did the right thing,
but it was painful.
So after we watched it, shesaid you wanna talk?
And I said I don't know if Ishould be angry.
I said I don't know.
I said but that statement spokevolumes to me, you know.
(41:19):
And then spoke with a few otherpeople that have just kind of
talked to me on this journey andone of the guys said well, it's
like when you are grilling, allyou can do is put the meat in
the proper position, but on thisday it may take 30 minutes to
(41:43):
cook.
Next day it may take 45 minutesto cook.
You're not in control of all ofthe variables.
All you can do is put the meaton yeah.
All you can do is prepare ityeah.
Something else controls thosevariables, but the end result is
something great.
Great.
I said well, since you put itthat way.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
I mean, do you think that it resonated with you?
Because it was Kirk?
Speaker 2 (42:13):
and his father.
Absolutely so.
It was that I'm happy for Kirk,I celebrated, but that little
kid where maybe, if othersweren't controlling the
narrative, I could have had timeand found him before he
transitioned.
(42:33):
You know, that's and it's not ajudgment, that's just the
reality, exactly, and I think alot of times we get caught up in
, well, I shouldn't say this andthat.
No, that's a fact, that's avariable.
Yeah, that is Whether now, themotivation behind what, the
decision's where.
That's different.
I'm not talking about that.
(42:53):
I'm in this looking at thecards that are on the table.
If biological mom I mean if thedoctor and mom had said you
know what, we want you to findthem, I want you to do X, y and
Z prior to 2000 and I think hepassed away, 2009.
That would have been nine, 10,11, 12, 13, four to five years
(43:20):
of that dynamic.
Now, at that time, biologicalmom might have been ready, you
know what I'm saying.
So it might have caused moredamage.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
It could have caused more damage for sure.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Who's to say that biological dad was ready?
You know, I don't know whatthat aspect is, so I have to, at
this point, reserve the rightto say you know what, whatever
it's supposed to be, and that'swhen I say if God wants that
(43:53):
part to be revealed to you, youwill see it before you take your
last breath.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Correct, correct.
That's how I feel.
When it comes to my biologicalfather, I'm like, whether I do,
whether I don't, I'm OK with iteither way and I just put it in.
If it's meant for me to findout who he is, then it will
(44:19):
happen in due time.
Right now, I keep hittingroadblocks.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Did you do an SSD?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Oh, absolutely, I've done everything you can possibly
do.
Ok, I've done it, but as far asanswering, I can only get to
like second cousin and I'vespoken to, communicated to
cousins on my biologicalfather's parental side and my
(44:47):
biological father's paternalside, but I've only gotten to
second cousin.
So I haven't been able to bridgethat gap yet.
And just for what little bit Ido know.
I don't think we'll ever havehis DNA anywhere because he was
(45:07):
a roller stone.
So hopefully, maybe again.
If it's meant for me to know, Iwill know.
But as of right now, I've beenhitting roadblocks but I'm not
like, oh, I've got to find it.
If it happens, it happens.
If it doesn't, I'm still atpeace, there's so many other
(45:30):
blessings in the journey.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
You don't have that one piece.
It's not as devastating asstill you want to know.
Yeah, absolutely, you've beenblessed in other regards.
So, going back to Kirk Franklin, we talked about when he first
got the call how he was sharingwith people.
We talked about when he firstmet his dad, when he gave him
(45:53):
the envelope and shared yes, youare the father.
How they had to take a secondDNA test and then how the mom
didn't want to acknowledgeeither DNA test.
Talk to me about him and hisson.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Oh my goodness, yes that part.
That right there, consideringand I don't know how much of the
background of him and his son,who have been estranged for some
years.
You know, I heard the call.
Yeah, we all heard the call.
That's true, that did go viral.
(46:29):
So for that to happen I meantalking about healing right
there the healing startedclosing up instantaneously.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
His son said that's my grandfather.
He said that's all I need.
That's all I need, that's all.
I need and it's just like, assimple as it may sound, it was,
so significant it was, and Ithink that for people to watch
(47:06):
it being laid out, familydynamic is so powerful it is.
You know what I'm saying?
Because now you have threegenerations right there, right
there, and I guarantee they havemore common than they have not.
Yes, then have not yes.
So, as much as Kirk and his sonwere bumping heads, maybe the
(47:31):
son was thinking, if I had agrandfather to go and talk to,
kirk was probably saying if Ihad my father, it'd help me be a
better father.
Father, you know what I'msaying?
Yes, it's just so manyvariables, but it just shows to
me the power of a family bond,and you know what's funny?
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Well, it's not funny, but it's interesting that that
tape went viral for that day,because you know why.
That's how.
Again, that's how God works,because that wouldn't have not
(48:11):
happened.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
If it wasn't going to be this end result, the end
result that had to happen, sothat we could appreciate that
moment that much more.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Exactly, wow, exactly , it had to, and then the world
saw it all.
So if we didn't see the firstpart, yeah, Then we wouldn't
have understood the significanceof the second part Correct.
Thank god for the year.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Mind blowing, mind blowing, mind blowing.
And you know it's, I think,with and we talked earlier how
this generation and right now,everything is the information
age and you know so it createsquestions.
Yeah, so now, when you have thedynamics of family and people
(49:01):
are questioning well, how, whoyou got, ancestry, that are
filling the gaps, even then whenyou don't want to talk about it
, you know.
So now you look, there's aplatform of adoptees and
adoption.
You know, you have stories.
They don't come out and sayadoption, tracing your roots,
Right, they indirectly come withit, but at the core, it's about
(49:25):
a family that isnon-traditional.
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Yeah, and finally, we come froma non-traditional family.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
And speaking of non-traditional families.
So just this past Sunday, kerryWashington came out with her
book and she also, you know,spoke about her biological
father as a sperm donor from asperm bank.
Wow, that's a whole different.
That's different, right, andthat's not even you know.
(50:01):
They didn't tell us she wasadopted or anything, because she
wasn't adopted yeah, she wasn't, because she's even using the
words I'm searching for my spermdonor, not, you know, my
biological.
She just said sperm donor.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
But I guess you know, and by all means that's her
truth.
I'm not taking away from, I'mjust asking isn't he still the
biological father?
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I don't recall her saying biological father.
I don't recall that.
I remember her saying spermdonor because her mom said I
went to a sperm bank.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
I wondered does she carry shame because of you know,
it's just so rather.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So she said that you know she's known for five years.
Okay, and the only reason sheknows is because again, there's
a you know the show Finding yourRoots.
She was going to be on it, butyou know, when you do your DNA
and all that stuff, they track,they do a lot of well, she
wanted to get ahead of it butyou have to.
(51:07):
Everybody that's in your circle, your parents have.
Everybody has signed off on it.
Oh, so they were like wait aminute.
So so, um, this is, oh, Gates,that's his name.
So he went to go speak to herparents because they have to
sign off on it, and so the momwas like so, hypothetically,
(51:34):
let's talk about this here.
If someone you know went to asperm bank, but that you know,
would that make a difference?
Yes, it's going to make adifference, it's.
DNA.
He was like yes, she said so.
Well then, we're not signingoff on this, we're not doing it.
(51:56):
So I can't remember if he saidyou know my ass why I can't
remember.
But the next thing was, I thinkthey said well, you know her,
she was conceived by a spermdonor.
And I think they asked her whatdo you think you know I should,
we should do?
He said you should tell herRight.
(52:20):
Because, she's going to ask whywe're not going forth in this,
and that's why she's not.
Because DNA don't lie, I don'tcare how you slice it, how you
cut it, you can't change it.
So that's why I don'tunderstand Kirk Franklin's mom
Like oh no, this is not yourfather.
Are you stupid?
Speaker 2 (52:40):
Well, again, trauma, if she, you know, whatever
decisions that she, the patternsof her.
You know, true, you're right,and we're sitting on the other
side of the equation.
We are.
We're not having gone throughthe trauma that she experienced.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
And she probably has had it in her head for 53 years
that she believes it.
That's her true.
It's her truth, right?
So I stand back and say, no,she's not stupid, right?
But she's in her truth, and Idon't know if she's ever going
to reconcile with reality.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
If you don't reconcile with the fact that
your child is sitting in frontof you asking for years, and
then they took the DNA twice,and then the man who is the
father like he's just as calmand it's like look, hey, this is
what it is.
I'm here.
Nobody that I saw was attackingher.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
No one no.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
It was.
These are the cards that weredealt.
Just acknowledge it.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
So all I need you to do but then she makes it better.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
Oh, what a relationship with my son.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
So maybe she felt like the father coming in would
replace her.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
But she's been there for 20 years.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
And you're right.
But maybe she thought that thefather coming in would be in
position and push her furtheraway, because maybe the father
Well, yeah, I think about it,the father is established, the
father is, has appears to have amentally stable situation.
So maybe it's a reflection ofwell, if you're going to think,
(54:19):
if you're going to get close tohim, then I know I'm not going
to get close because I don'tknow, but again she goes.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
So you're going to use this to not have a
relationship with me.
But my thing is why didn't youhave a relationship with him for
the past 20 years?
Because I'm sure it wasn't that, because she's always been in
his life, he's always known whoshe was, but she came in and out
(54:50):
and out, in and out.
She never stayed because that'swhen he was with a distant
relative who was, I think, 80s,something like that, 60s,
something like that, was veryold.
I just don't understand how youhave a sister and obviously at
least we know of two sisters andnobody wanted to help with the
(55:14):
kid.
I don't understand.
Maybe you all were young, butonce you got older y'all know
what it's kid is, becauseapparently it was a distant
relative.
It was a relative.
Help me understand.
But he's trying to understandhow I fall through the cracks,
(55:35):
how I fall through the cracks, ababy fall through the cracks,
end up with this one lady, thisolder, older lady that said, oh
no, we're not going to let himgo in the system, but then no
one came back to get him becausethe auntie didn't look like she
was hurting for money.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
They look like they've done pretty well, pretty
well.
I'm just saying that's just melooking from the outside and I
just don't understand how theyall but then again, if Deborah
was on, whatever island she wason, maybe she pushed people away
(56:16):
and they were like you knowwhat, I ain't dealing with it?
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yeah, but even though you're not dealing with her,
what about him?
Who knows?
I don't know.
He's like he grew up by himself, which, on the flip side, I'm
grateful that he grew up byhimself, because we benefit from
his, we're benefit from his.
Unfortunately, we benefit fromhis pain.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
So you know, and I don't know if we can wrap up I'm
thinking about how adoption hasbeen portrayed in the media,
right, because now they'retalking about it, we're all you
know, a big mental healthstandpoint.
Yeah, so I can only think oftwo, ironically, sitcoms that
addressed adoption, and theyboth were white.
(57:04):
Families with a black child,different strokes and Webster,
yeah, how you know that.
That speaks volumes, and whatit says to me is that the
perception is that you can't, wecan, we'll take care of it.
You know, we have the fuck is.
Both were financially stable.
They were, you know whatPapadopoulos was, a judge.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
So, yes, he had money , yeah, drumming was a
businessman, Right.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
So this you know, we're going to go and we'll take
care of it.
I don't even remember how he,how he got Webster I don't know
if it was.
I'm going to have to look thatup.
We'll talk about that when wetalk about media adoption.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
But I was sitting here thinking about how it's
portrayed and it creates thisnarrative because I remember
Willis and I'm going back andthey would meet their mom and
Arnold really didn't know andyou know that whole dynamic.
But that's going to be a greatepisode, so make sure y'all tune
in on this one.
Yes, because yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
And there's a lot of reality ones too.
Now now Tom Cruise.
Yeah, they adopted Angela Jolie, Sandra Bullock, they.
So, yeah, you definitely we'regoing to.
That's going to be a good one,even in the shot.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
I don't know if you watched the shot.
Speaker 1 (58:19):
I do not.
We'll talk about that, that'sokay.
Okay, I'm a binge watcher queenso I can binge watch it real
quick.
Speaker 2 (58:27):
I'm talking about six seasons.
I'm going to season five, okay,but yeah, watch it.
It's pretty awesome.
Okay, all right.
So, yeah, this has been a goodepisode and I think it goes to
show the relevance of you know,these adoption stories and
truths.
Speaker 1 (58:44):
Yeah, they, and with the technology of today they are
starting to reveal themselves.
Yeah, so I'm just saying somepeople may want to get ahead of
it.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
Yeah, you're right.
Go ahead and speak your truthSpeak your truth now, wherever
hold your peace.
Hey, own it and it's okay, it'sall right.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
It's all right, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (59:09):
So again we want to thank you all for just coming
into our conversation and wehope that it makes you think and
hope, we hope that it inspiresyou and we also hope that, if
maybe you're not the adoptee,but you know somebody and it
gives you a better understandinginto their thought process.
So on that note, I'm John andI'm Lisa.
(59:29):
And so I'm adopted.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
We're adopted, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
See you next time yeah.
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