March 6, 2025 • 28 mins
Explore the depths of prayer with us in this enlightening episode, where we unpack the long-held belief that “God answers prayers.” Instead, we focus on the idea that God responds to the intentions and hearts behind our prayers. Our special guest, Steve Hawthorne, brings a wealth of experience in ministry, leading us through a thought-provoking dialogue on prayer's true purpose.
Learn how prayer serves as an invitation to a deeper relationship with God, rather than a transactional exchange. We discuss the courtroom analogy, where prayers act as testimonies presented to the God who actively engages with our requests. Our conversation highlights the importance of understanding prayer within the context of our relationship with the divine, moving away from seeing it as a magic formula.
Throughout the episode, we address common misconceptions about prayer and emphasize the significance of trusting in God’s timing and purposes. How do you view prayer? Join us as we encourage listeners to see prayer as a journey towards intimacy with the God who hears and responds.
Let’s deepen our prayer lives together—subscribe, share your insights, and leave us a review!
Visit Steve's website here: www.waymakers.org
Also here is the link to the article Steve referenced towards the end of the podcast: Be Assured that You Are Heard by Steve Hawthorne
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chad (00:00):
Hey everybody, thank you for tuning in to today's podcast
.
I'm going to be with SteveHawthorne and we're going to
talk about something that youmay not expect.
We're going to talk aboutprayer and how God uses it to
impact people's hearts for thenations.
Welcome to FBC Missions.
So that Podcast.
This is an encouraging place tohear how God is working in and
(00:21):
around us.
We know that he blesses Hispeople so that they can bless
the world around them.
Join us as we discuss how tojoin God in all that he is doing
.
Why is God working in our life,church and community?
It's so that, through us, theworld will know that he is me.
Hey everybody, this is PastorChad.
(00:43):
I'm so glad to be with youtoday on the podcast.
I'm here with my friend, steveHawthorne.
He's been on the podcast before.
How are you, steve?
I'm doing well.
Thank you, so great to have youwith us again in the studio, as
last time you've been in townfor Perspectives.
We've had a couple classes lastnight, this morning and another
(01:03):
one in a little bit, and we'reso thankful that you're able to
make the trip down here toBernie.
And so, man, it's again sowonderful to get to hear how the
Lord has really I don't knowshown you his heart in some ways
and the way that you've hadthis impact through the
Perspectives course and many,many other environments
throughout your ministry andyour career.
(01:24):
And so today I just want to askhow's everything?
Steve (01:28):
going?
How are you, sir?
It's going well.
I'm pressing on.
We're about to finish arevision of the entire
Perspectives course, and that'sbeing eagerly awaited.
Chad (01:39):
You may not remember this , but about 12 years ago I asked
you would there ever be anotheredition?
You said not while I'm alive.
I think we were in Tulsa,oklahoma, back then and I was
laughing.
Edition 5, right around thecorner.
Steve (01:56):
Well, it's the fifth edition.
It will be coming out publishedin the.
There'll be copies up here indecember of 225 yeah we have the
reader just about done, but thewhole curriculum includes uh,
study guidance, yeah, of course,of course.
Chad (02:16):
Uh, for those who are have been internal to the class,
there's lesson reviews.
There's all these internalcomponents that work together to
pull the class together.
So just doing the reader is onething.
Adjusting the study guide,that's another thing.
But beyond that, there's allthese internal components that
work together to pull the classtogether.
So just doing the reader is onething.
Adjusting the study guide,that's another thing.
But beyond that there's a wholebunch of peripheral tools that
go alongside the class that alsoneed to be adjusted.
So that's a huge work.
I know that you've had a greatteam working on that and Pam
(02:40):
Arland has had a part of that, abig part of it, so we're
excited she's going to come anddo our lesson.
Steve (02:44):
I think it's lesson nine later in the year, so we're
excited to have her.
Yeah, she has been an excellentcolleague of mine and she's
going to become the lead editor,and Ralph Winters passed away,
as you know, and so my name andRalph Winters and Pam Arlen is
(03:06):
going to be on the cover.
On the new one and we doalphabetical order, which you
don't have to do.
Chad (03:14):
Pam will come, first.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
Well, we've had so many goodconversations over the years,
and today we've had good onestoo, over lunch and, of course,
in the class this morning.
But today you were talkingabout this article that you've
been writing and this idea, sowhy don't you introduce it and
let's talk a little bit aboutwhat's on your heart.
Steve (03:37):
So back in 2007, the people at Pray Magazine were
asking me to write something.
I was on the board and so Isaid, yeah, I can write
something.
Here's one thing I'm concernedabout and I had noticed and I
(03:57):
wrote an article that I titledactually it was put in.
Actually it was put in.
It was first published in acollection of prayer articles by
Dan Crawford, edited by him.
He's a Baptist guy.
Dan Crawford is a name known inthe Baptist world.
(04:29):
And so he asked me to writeabout god's responses to prayer
and I said, and uh, and that's a.
I thought, okay, because theunanswered prayers yeah, that's
the problem.
Chad (04:35):
I can't get god to answer my prayer, right right, and
this is always a problem, right,everyone's like.
I think there's been evenmassive studies at times to try
to quantify how much prayer doyou need to get the results that
you want?
Steve (04:48):
Yeah, right.
So I started the article withan insight that I think is
pretty good.
It may surprise you, but theBible never says that God
answers prayer.
Chad (05:01):
Steve, like you're dropping a mic, it's a boom,
it's a bomb.
What in the world?
Steve (05:06):
It never says In all the books of the Bible in the
original languages and I canread Greek and Hebrew, but
you'll never find a single timethat specifically says that God
answers prayer.
What you will find are hundredsof times that God responds to
the people who pray, and it'slike hair splitting.
Chad (05:30):
Sure, I can't.
What's the difference so?
Steve (05:32):
I'm excited to see what this does.
Yeah, I know it is.
It's a huge difference.
But if we take a closer look,which I'd like to do with you
guys, let's talk about Godanswering prayers and instead of
answering prayers, god answerspeople.
That's huge, because there'snot anyway.
(05:58):
So you hear of how the Hebrewword anah, which means answer,
is used to describe Godanswering people who pray.
You can find it all over thePsalms.
Elijah, you know, when hecalled down fire from heaven.
Here's the prayer Answer me, oLord, answer me that this people
(06:25):
may know that you are god, andso, and uh, fire comes down from
heaven.
That's pretty powerful prayeryeah yeah, but.
But I wonder if we just saypowerful prayer because the
alliteration makes it fun to sayso.
So you remember that movie,bruce Almighty Of course my kids
(06:51):
love it yeah and so at onepoint he's given supernatural
power to be like God, and he'sgoing to answer prayers.
So he types really fast on acomputer and we're made to think
that he's answering millions ofprayers per second and saying
yes, no, no, no, get out of here.
(07:12):
Here's five and something likethat.
It's crazy, but why is thatsignificant?
It's funny, it's silly, butthat's not how God operates.
But that's what we pretend andwe think God must be hearing my
(07:35):
prayer.
He's not hearing me.
You know God processes requestslike emails or text messages.
Chad (07:43):
To log in and get caught up and try to get out the
weekend, all those ones thatcame out while he was not
watching.
Steve (07:49):
In that model, see, prayer is reduced to a procedure
.
That is a way to get results.
Chad (08:00):
Right a transaction like I ask and he gives.
And if you say the right thingdad, I need $10 to put some gas
in the car.
Okay, here you go.
Steve (08:10):
Here's 10 bucks.
Chad (08:13):
You didn't clean your room.
You're not getting it today.
Steve (08:18):
How many times have we had a little, but we we didn't
say, in Jesus name, amen, oh, webetter say it.
Chad (08:26):
It's like you hung up the phone or you didn't hang up on
time or you left it off the hook.
Steve (08:31):
That prayer's not going to work, and so there was one
spiritual leader I don't want toname his name because it would
be embarrassing, because he'swell-known but he says we now
have it's a conference.
Major thing we now have thespiritual technology to deal
with almost any problem.
He was one of the big spiritualwarfare kind of guys.
(08:54):
He got into it late, butspiritual technology.
Chad (08:58):
No no.
Steve (08:59):
That's not a technique.
If I say this and offer thisand do that little operation,
then I will get what I want, andso you can't blame us.
That's how we've taught prayer.
Prayer is usually a procurementprocess or a problem-solving
(09:25):
method something like that.
That works, but only part ofthe time, and so we thought we
could motivate people byconvincing that prayer works.
Chad (09:36):
We prayed.
Steve (09:37):
Listen to the stories and we tell the glory stories.
This lady prayed and him bam,the exact much you know.
She prayed, she, her rent was237 and she and she got a check
for 237.
What a miracle prayer works.
Chad (09:59):
You know what you're describing, steve.
I I do hear this often kind ofin the in the circles of how
prayer is supposed to work,especially from what I would
consider is like somebody who'sI don't need to describe too
many people, but the kind of anominal american christian, you
know someone who's been inchurch, but they're not really
(10:20):
closely engaged and on but likehey, I come to church, I give on
occasion, I pray when I needsomething.
You know, like this is how Iinteract with God and it is very
transactional.
I do this and I expect a result, or at least I hope for a
result.
I may or may not get it.
My faith doesn't promise meanything.
You know what I mean.
So, what you're describing isvery common.
Steve (10:46):
Yeah, is very common, yeah, so we've somehow thought
that if we could motivate peopleto pray by convincing them that
prayer works.
But by that same logic, if itdoesn't work, then we should
stop praying.
Chad (10:56):
You're not wrong.
Steve (10:57):
And for the most part we have.
So what is it?
And Jesus had a way ofdescribing that In the Gospel of
Luke, Luke 18, check that out,the first eight verses.
Amazing thing Jesus knew wewould look for a way to make
prayer work.
(11:18):
He knew that after long days orweeks and months, we would not
get to ask for a result and thatdismay could harden into stony
disappointment.
Why didn't God answer me?
And what have I got to do toconvince him?
And Jesus told a story.
(11:38):
He was telling them a parableto show that at all times they
ought to pray and not lose heart.
Lose heart, yeah, we lose heart.
We give up.
I can't make it work.
Chad (11:54):
And.
Steve (11:54):
Luke calls it a parable, but I say it's a complete
paradigm, a vision of whatprayer is and what prayer isn't,
and so the way he says it is.
There's a woman and she goes toa judge.
Now the judge, why are we goingto court?
I thought we were talking aboutprayer.
Prayer is a courtroom procedureanyway.
(12:16):
So, day after day, time aftertime, this lady goes and she
makes the same appeal over andover and over.
She's not going to answer,doesn't get a response, but she
refuses to give up.
She keeps coming and finallythe judge gives her what she
wanted.
The woman was always heard bythe judge, but the repeated
(12:41):
pleas they don't really add anynew information.
She wasn't saying it different,the magic way, the powerful way
or something like that.
Nothing changes day after day.
Jesus' point was to compare theunreliability of the unrighteous
(13:01):
judge.
The problem was not was thejudge?
He was not righteous.
Jesus called her unrighteousand so he didn't hear her and so
he was trying to say keep goingand keep praying.
Why?
Because sometimes I pray andI'm not praying to a judge or
(13:27):
something like that but Goddoesn't.
The prayer doesn't work, itdoesn't come back right away.
So this shows us.
With this parable, jesusrightly selects a courtroom for
(13:50):
us to understand what prayer isall about.
And because every time we seeheaven we see God's throne room,
which means it's a courtroom.
And most Americans we don't getkingships, we just think lady
(14:11):
die, she's a princess and thatwas amazing and they're king
something.
But a throne room is wherecourt is, decisions were made.
Yeah, and people adjust or not.
Chad (14:25):
The closest thing we have in our culture is a judge's
courtroom right.
That makes sense.
He sits on his bench and makesdecisions Right, right.
Steve (14:33):
So we come to it.
So I think there's twodifferent paradigms of prayer in
the Bible.
One I call enforcement, theother I call entreaty.
Entreaty is a word to say I'masking Sure, and enforcement is
I'm using power to coerce.
And there are some expressionsthat say that, but never once
(14:54):
does it say God answers prayer.
But so we like to think ofprayer as a device, as a method,
methodology to make thingshappen.
And yet we find throughout theBible hundreds of times that
(15:16):
people pray and god hears themand uh, and in treaty and uh,
those who pray are seen asapproaching god's throne in the
courtroom of heaven.
You don't have to get mysticabout it and be supernatural
seeing or something like that,but God can hear us from
(15:38):
anywhere on the planet and hedoes so.
He hears prayer and he answerspeople, but he hears prayer.
He may not answer it, but justlike a court and a judge hears
the testimony, hears this whatdo you say?
What's your testimony, what'syours?
(15:59):
And he hears all the testimonyand he makes a decision about
what's going to happen.
That's just like our God hehears.
Chad (16:09):
He hears.
Steve (16:09):
Yeah, but well, how come I?
I needed the rent money anddidn't come back?
I didn't, I didn't have enoughor something.
I didn't answer my prayerbecause I asked them for this
and didn't.
No, you'll never find a placewhere, if you say this in the
right kind of way and say, inJesus' name, amen, it's going to
(16:32):
work, it'll come through.
But people love to tell storiesabout prayer, but we can be
sure that God has heard everyword and so that's a marvelous
thing.
He may respond slowly, but wemust see that our lives are part
(16:56):
of a tapestry of things thatgoes back centuries.
Many generations before we werealive, god was beginning to
hear prayers and move in certainways, and he's got a great
global purpose.
And the little times in which welive.
The number of our days is short, but he hears our prayers and,
(17:22):
in light of the large thing he'sbringing about, yeah, there's
so much in differentconversations that we've had,
steve, that are coming to mymind as you're talking, you know
.
Chad (17:34):
one is this idea that our relationship with the Father is
not transactional.
It's not the better I am asyour child, the more pleased
you're going to be with me andtherefore give me.
So the more time I pray, themore time I fast, as if my
prayers and fasting were theworks that he requires in order
to bless me.
It's really not that we treatit like that.
(17:57):
Often, someone might say, well,if you don't pray, you
shouldn't expect God to do it.
I'm not saying you shouldn't.
The way that we should approachprayer is like we're
approaching our Father, likewe're approaching a relationship
with someone that we care aboutand we love, and how much more
so does he want to have thatsame relationship with us.
And so when you think aboutverses like um, god gives
(18:18):
according to his will, you know,and and and never outside of
his will.
he's never going to do anythingthat's outside of his will right
so he's bound by his own natureto do the things that he's
pursuing his purpose.
You use the words, and so,whenever our prayers are in and
encounter will, there's no, itwill not.
Steve (18:38):
He'll hear it.
Chad (18:39):
He'll hear it.
Steve (18:40):
Yeah, but it's just like any father.
Here's this kid says oh, oh, Iwant to be, I want a triple ice
cream please.
Oh, I really want that, give me, give me.
And it says well, after supperwe might get one scoop, right,
(19:03):
but you hear a response, so it'snot.
Yeah, we ask absurd things wedon't know They'll be dangerous
and damaging.
Chad (19:13):
Well, I think about the commands that Jesus talks about,
when we always I mean, if youcommand this mountain right be
removed and thrown into the sea,and you speak it with faith,
that could happen.
You get those kinds of but thatthat's the kind of way we apply
that to prayer, like if youjust command it, it will happen,
but that's again, alwaysaccording to the will of God and
(19:34):
always according to his purpose.
Yeah, and and and.
Then also you said the not grow, not to lose heart.
You know we were talking aboutthis genesis, hebrews 12, a
little while ago, that you knowconsider him who endured such
opposition from sinners, so thatyou don't grow weary and lose
heart.
And it's talking about christ,who suffered more than any of
anyone I know and yet pursued infaith the ends that god
(19:59):
commanded him with passion, withheart, with, with confidence,
with faith, and.
And so how much that goesalongside with this conversation
.
Steve (20:07):
Well, let's say, let's come boldly to the throne of
grace, right and throne of grace, well, god thinks he's some
sort of mighty man.
I know that throne is like oh,you're safe because there's a
good father and his throne roomis the place you want to come
(20:31):
and the courtroom model doesn't.
And let me just read from thisthe courtroom model doesn't
promise that any prayerinstantly sways the mind of
God's counsel.
Many appeals are not upheld.
You can appeal it and go hmm,got a better thing to do.
There's an even better thingcould happen in the long run.
Some motions are not sustained,but we can count on God to
(20:54):
wisely weigh the lives and wordsof those who pray in light of
his purpose as it unfolds in allthe earth.
His people are his preferredwitnesses.
He loves to be calling theearth.
His people are his preferredwitnesses.
He loves to be calling thewitness.
What do you have to say aboutthis?
I think we should help him.
It's like yeah, You've done itbefore.
(21:17):
Good point, that's a goodargument.
Our prayers may seem silly tounliked angels, but even the
simplest prayer is significantbecause he helps us.
The king we approach is ourfather At our side, is heaven's
favorite son and champion.
He sends his spirit to searchout the depths of who we are,
(21:42):
aligning our muddled desireswith the surpassing majesty of
his heart.
Because of his mercy, most ofthe important cases are taking
many generations to unfold.
He knows his timing.
You can be assured every wordyou have ever prayed with any
(22:03):
kind of sincerity has been heardin heaven.
He's never forgotten.
He doesn't forget.
Not a single syllable has everbeen forgotten.
Prayer doesn't work, but God isat work.
So let's pray and approachGod's throne.
We have standing at that courtand we can pray on behalf of
(22:26):
others, pray for ourselves, butlet's appeal to him and rest and
trust and not lose heart.
Chad (22:37):
It's so good, steve.
Again, the thoughts I don'twant to steal from your class I
think you shared this story onour podcast last time that you
have daughters and you love themand each of them are your
favorite in their own way.
And how much more so when theFather says come to me all who
(22:58):
are heavy laden and burdened,and I'll give you rest.
He wants to have that closenessto us.
So I think, when I hear thiswhole presentation, what I think
is that so many times weapproach prayer like it's magic.
If I say the right things, I'llget a certain response.
If I have the right words tosay, in the right order and the
right.
You know, I've been to church,I've given my tithe, I've done
(23:20):
this.
Now God owes me, so I'm goingto just call in this favor.
You've heard people talk aboutthe credit card.
I'm just going to slide it, andwhen my debit card is empty, I
need to free-fill it in some wayand you've got to do some great
act that impresses the Lord.
That really is a pagan form ofworship, it's an idolatrous form
, using your words from today.
(23:41):
And so this idea that he's afather who's near, who's close,
who's always listening, foolishrequests, your sincere heart,
your requests.
He hears them.
He hears them, and I love whatyou just said.
Oftentimes you might pick up abook at the Christian bookstore
that says prayer works.
It's like, well, actuallyprayer is a petition, but God
(24:03):
works, prayer does it.
Prayer is not magic, it's Godat work.
Actually, prayer is a petition,but God works, prayer doesn't.
Prayer is not magic.
It's God at work and it's hispeople petitioning him.
You know, asking him.
Beseeching is a word that I'veheard Justin Long use.
Right, and this idea thatthey're just saying God, we need
you, we need you, and he'ssaying I'm here, I'm nearby and
(24:26):
I may or may not be able togrant your request.
Another thing that's so commonin our world today is this idea
that if you have faith, god willdo what you want him to do.
And yet there's so manyexamples of people who struggle,
struggle hard.
I mean people in the world whoare dying, literally dying, who
love the Lord with all theirheart and things are not being
given to them, maybe being takenfrom them, and they're asking
(24:46):
the Lord where are you?
Why aren't you taking care ofus?
Why do we lose our homes, ourjobs or whatever, and we have no
answer for that, aside from Godsaying I'm enough, I'm here,
I'm suffering with you.
I've walked this line Again.
Consider him who bore suchopposition that you don't grow
weary and lose heart.
And so this is a great word,steve.
(25:07):
I love it.
Prayer doesn't work.
God works.
Steve (25:11):
God doesn't work.
Prayer is this way of invitingus to work with him.
And at the last we're not goingto say look at all the amazing
answers to prayer we were ableto make happen.
We're not going to say anythinglike that.
We're going to say, oh, he'sfulfilled everything he's
(25:32):
promised.
He came through.
What a worthy, trustworthy God.
He heard us.
It was three centuries afterthe great-great-grandmother
prayed.
We never would have known it,but it took us three aeons into
(25:53):
heaven to find out.
Oh, she's the one who prayed.
God listened, honors that woman.
So let's keep praying.
You can't.
And you heard.
We are heard, so we can beassured of that.
He's listening carefully.
So don't not pray, because itdoesn't work for me.
(26:16):
I can't make it work.
Don't go find the prayer ladyat church because she gets
through.
That's another kind of strange,bizarre thing.
You know, Jesus taught us topray our Father.
She gets through.
That's another kind of strange,bizarre thing.
Jesus taught us to pray ourFather.
That means everybody gets in,not just the high priest and all
(26:37):
that.
So let's rejoice that God hearsour prayers.
Jonah was heard from the bellyof a fish While he was fleeing
from the belly of a fish whilehe was fleeing from God.
Chad (26:48):
He's in a positionally almost anti-God location and yet
God is listening to him andhearing his prayer and even
redeeming him in the process.
What an incredible thing.
Steve has always so fun to getto hear from your heart what
God's doing this article.
Steve (27:06):
If you'd like to read the article, it's available free
download on my website.
Chad (27:10):
If you don't mind, I'll actually put it in the show
notes.
They can click on it anddownload it from the.
Steve (27:14):
Waymakersorg.
There's other articles too, butgood.
Chad (27:18):
We'll put a link to waymakersorg on there as well,
Steve.
Thank you so much.
Steve (27:23):
Thank you.
Chad (27:27):
Thank you for your ministry and, most of all, thank
you for just bearing your heart.
Every time I see you, you'retrying to show, I'd say, the
passion that you've borrowedfrom the Lord.
It's the.
Steve (27:35):
Father's heart.
Chad (27:38):
Well, thank you, sir.
Hey, for those of you listening, I hope this has been
encouraging to you.
We'd love to talk to you somemore.
If you have any questions orthoughts, or even if you
disagree and you want to tell meabout it, I'd love to hear
about that.
So please feel free to give ussome response.
Have a wonderful day and Godbless.
We are so thankful that youjoined our podcast today.
We would love to hear anyfeedback you may have for us.
(27:59):
Remember, psalm 67 says may Godbe gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine on us,so that your ways may be known
on earth and your salvationamong all nations.
Don't forget why the Lordblesses us it's so that we can
be a blessing to those around us.
(28:19):
Until next time, god bless.
Hey everybody, thank you for tuning in to today's podcast
.
I'm going to be with SteveHawthorne and we're going to
talk about something that youmay not expect.
We're going to talk aboutprayer and how God uses it to
impact people's hearts for thenations.
Welcome to FBC Missions.
So that Podcast.
This is an encouraging place tohear how God is working in and
(00:21):
around us.
We know that he blesses Hispeople so that they can bless
the world around them.
Join us as we discuss how tojoin God in all that he is doing
.
Why is God working in our life,church and community?
It's so that, through us, theworld will know that he is me.
Hey everybody, this is PastorChad.
(00:43):
I'm so glad to be with youtoday on the podcast.
I'm here with my friend, steveHawthorne.
He's been on the podcast before.
How are you, steve?
I'm doing well.
Thank you, so great to have youwith us again in the studio, as
last time you've been in townfor Perspectives.
We've had a couple classes lastnight, this morning and another
(01:03):
one in a little bit, and we'reso thankful that you're able to
make the trip down here toBernie.
And so, man, it's again sowonderful to get to hear how the
Lord has really I don't knowshown you his heart in some ways
and the way that you've hadthis impact through the
Perspectives course and many,many other environments
throughout your ministry andyour career.
(01:24):
And so today I just want to askhow's everything?
Steve (01:28):
going?
How are you, sir?
It's going well.
I'm pressing on.
We're about to finish arevision of the entire
Perspectives course, and that'sbeing eagerly awaited.
Chad (01:39):
You may not remember this , but about 12 years ago I asked
you would there ever be anotheredition?
You said not while I'm alive.
I think we were in Tulsa,oklahoma, back then and I was
laughing.
Edition 5, right around thecorner.
Steve (01:56):
Well, it's the fifth edition.
It will be coming out publishedin the.
There'll be copies up here indecember of 225 yeah we have the
reader just about done, but thewhole curriculum includes uh,
study guidance, yeah, of course,of course.
Chad (02:16):
Uh, for those who are have been internal to the class,
there's lesson reviews.
There's all these internalcomponents that work together to
pull the class together.
So just doing the reader is onething.
Adjusting the study guide,that's another thing.
But beyond that, there's allthese internal components that
work together to pull the classtogether.
So just doing the reader is onething.
Adjusting the study guide,that's another thing.
But beyond that there's a wholebunch of peripheral tools that
go alongside the class that alsoneed to be adjusted.
So that's a huge work.
I know that you've had a greatteam working on that and Pam
(02:40):
Arland has had a part of that, abig part of it, so we're
excited she's going to come anddo our lesson.
Steve (02:44):
I think it's lesson nine later in the year, so we're
excited to have her.
Yeah, she has been an excellentcolleague of mine and she's
going to become the lead editor,and Ralph Winters passed away,
as you know, and so my name andRalph Winters and Pam Arlen is
(03:06):
going to be on the cover.
On the new one and we doalphabetical order, which you
don't have to do.
Chad (03:14):
Pam will come, first.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
Well, we've had so many goodconversations over the years,
and today we've had good onestoo, over lunch and, of course,
in the class this morning.
But today you were talkingabout this article that you've
been writing and this idea, sowhy don't you introduce it and
let's talk a little bit aboutwhat's on your heart.
Steve (03:37):
So back in 2007, the people at Pray Magazine were
asking me to write something.
I was on the board and so Isaid, yeah, I can write
something.
Here's one thing I'm concernedabout and I had noticed and I
(03:57):
wrote an article that I titledactually it was put in.
Actually it was put in.
It was first published in acollection of prayer articles by
Dan Crawford, edited by him.
He's a Baptist guy.
Dan Crawford is a name known inthe Baptist world.
(04:29):
And so he asked me to writeabout god's responses to prayer
and I said, and uh, and that's a.
I thought, okay, because theunanswered prayers yeah, that's
the problem.
Chad (04:35):
I can't get god to answer my prayer, right right, and
this is always a problem, right,everyone's like.
I think there's been evenmassive studies at times to try
to quantify how much prayer doyou need to get the results that
you want?
Steve (04:48):
Yeah, right.
So I started the article withan insight that I think is
pretty good.
It may surprise you, but theBible never says that God
answers prayer.
Chad (05:01):
Steve, like you're dropping a mic, it's a boom,
it's a bomb.
What in the world?
Steve (05:06):
It never says In all the books of the Bible in the
original languages and I canread Greek and Hebrew, but
you'll never find a single timethat specifically says that God
answers prayer.
What you will find are hundredsof times that God responds to
the people who pray, and it'slike hair splitting.
Chad (05:30):
Sure, I can't.
What's the difference so?
Steve (05:32):
I'm excited to see what this does.
Yeah, I know it is.
It's a huge difference.
But if we take a closer look,which I'd like to do with you
guys, let's talk about Godanswering prayers and instead of
answering prayers, god answerspeople.
That's huge, because there'snot anyway.
(05:58):
So you hear of how the Hebrewword anah, which means answer,
is used to describe Godanswering people who pray.
You can find it all over thePsalms.
Elijah, you know, when hecalled down fire from heaven.
Here's the prayer Answer me, oLord, answer me that this people
(06:25):
may know that you are god, andso, and uh, fire comes down from
heaven.
That's pretty powerful prayeryeah yeah, but.
But I wonder if we just saypowerful prayer because the
alliteration makes it fun to sayso.
So you remember that movie,bruce Almighty Of course my kids
(06:51):
love it yeah and so at onepoint he's given supernatural
power to be like God, and he'sgoing to answer prayers.
So he types really fast on acomputer and we're made to think
that he's answering millions ofprayers per second and saying
yes, no, no, no, get out of here.
(07:12):
Here's five and something likethat.
It's crazy, but why is thatsignificant?
It's funny, it's silly, butthat's not how God operates.
But that's what we pretend andwe think God must be hearing my
(07:35):
prayer.
He's not hearing me.
You know God processes requestslike emails or text messages.
Chad (07:43):
To log in and get caught up and try to get out the
weekend, all those ones thatcame out while he was not
watching.
Steve (07:49):
In that model, see, prayer is reduced to a procedure
.
That is a way to get results.
Chad (08:00):
Right a transaction like I ask and he gives.
And if you say the right thingdad, I need $10 to put some gas
in the car.
Okay, here you go.
Steve (08:10):
Here's 10 bucks.
Chad (08:13):
You didn't clean your room.
You're not getting it today.
Steve (08:18):
How many times have we had a little, but we we didn't
say, in Jesus name, amen, oh, webetter say it.
Chad (08:26):
It's like you hung up the phone or you didn't hang up on
time or you left it off the hook.
Steve (08:31):
That prayer's not going to work, and so there was one
spiritual leader I don't want toname his name because it would
be embarrassing, because he'swell-known but he says we now
have it's a conference.
Major thing we now have thespiritual technology to deal
with almost any problem.
He was one of the big spiritualwarfare kind of guys.
(08:54):
He got into it late, butspiritual technology.
Chad (08:58):
No no.
Steve (08:59):
That's not a technique.
If I say this and offer thisand do that little operation,
then I will get what I want, andso you can't blame us.
That's how we've taught prayer.
Prayer is usually a procurementprocess or a problem-solving
(09:25):
method something like that.
That works, but only part ofthe time, and so we thought we
could motivate people byconvincing that prayer works.
Chad (09:36):
We prayed.
Steve (09:37):
Listen to the stories and we tell the glory stories.
This lady prayed and him bam,the exact much you know.
She prayed, she, her rent was237 and she and she got a check
for 237.
What a miracle prayer works.
Chad (09:59):
You know what you're describing, steve.
I I do hear this often kind ofin the in the circles of how
prayer is supposed to work,especially from what I would
consider is like somebody who'sI don't need to describe too
many people, but the kind of anominal american christian, you
know someone who's been inchurch, but they're not really
(10:20):
closely engaged and on but likehey, I come to church, I give on
occasion, I pray when I needsomething.
You know, like this is how Iinteract with God and it is very
transactional.
I do this and I expect a result, or at least I hope for a
result.
I may or may not get it.
My faith doesn't promise meanything.
You know what I mean.
So, what you're describing isvery common.
Steve (10:46):
Yeah, is very common, yeah, so we've somehow thought
that if we could motivate peopleto pray by convincing them that
prayer works.
But by that same logic, if itdoesn't work, then we should
stop praying.
Chad (10:56):
You're not wrong.
Steve (10:57):
And for the most part we have.
So what is it?
And Jesus had a way ofdescribing that In the Gospel of
Luke, Luke 18, check that out,the first eight verses.
Amazing thing Jesus knew wewould look for a way to make
prayer work.
(11:18):
He knew that after long days orweeks and months, we would not
get to ask for a result and thatdismay could harden into stony
disappointment.
Why didn't God answer me?
And what have I got to do toconvince him?
And Jesus told a story.
(11:38):
He was telling them a parableto show that at all times they
ought to pray and not lose heart.
Lose heart, yeah, we lose heart.
We give up.
I can't make it work.
Chad (11:54):
And.
Steve (11:54):
Luke calls it a parable, but I say it's a complete
paradigm, a vision of whatprayer is and what prayer isn't,
and so the way he says it is.
There's a woman and she goes toa judge.
Now the judge, why are we goingto court?
I thought we were talking aboutprayer.
Prayer is a courtroom procedureanyway.
(12:16):
So, day after day, time aftertime, this lady goes and she
makes the same appeal over andover and over.
She's not going to answer,doesn't get a response, but she
refuses to give up.
She keeps coming and finallythe judge gives her what she
wanted.
The woman was always heard bythe judge, but the repeated
(12:41):
pleas they don't really add anynew information.
She wasn't saying it different,the magic way, the powerful way
or something like that.
Nothing changes day after day.
Jesus' point was to compare theunreliability of the unrighteous
(13:01):
judge.
The problem was not was thejudge?
He was not righteous.
Jesus called her unrighteousand so he didn't hear her and so
he was trying to say keep goingand keep praying.
Why?
Because sometimes I pray andI'm not praying to a judge or
(13:27):
something like that but Goddoesn't.
The prayer doesn't work, itdoesn't come back right away.
So this shows us.
With this parable, jesusrightly selects a courtroom for
(13:50):
us to understand what prayer isall about.
And because every time we seeheaven we see God's throne room,
which means it's a courtroom.
And most Americans we don't getkingships, we just think lady
(14:11):
die, she's a princess and thatwas amazing and they're king
something.
But a throne room is wherecourt is, decisions were made.
Yeah, and people adjust or not.
Chad (14:25):
The closest thing we have in our culture is a judge's
courtroom right.
That makes sense.
He sits on his bench and makesdecisions Right, right.
Steve (14:33):
So we come to it.
So I think there's twodifferent paradigms of prayer in
the Bible.
One I call enforcement, theother I call entreaty.
Entreaty is a word to say I'masking Sure, and enforcement is
I'm using power to coerce.
And there are some expressionsthat say that, but never once
(14:54):
does it say God answers prayer.
But so we like to think ofprayer as a device, as a method,
methodology to make thingshappen.
And yet we find throughout theBible hundreds of times that
(15:16):
people pray and god hears themand uh, and in treaty and uh,
those who pray are seen asapproaching god's throne in the
courtroom of heaven.
You don't have to get mysticabout it and be supernatural
seeing or something like that,but God can hear us from
(15:38):
anywhere on the planet and hedoes so.
He hears prayer and he answerspeople, but he hears prayer.
He may not answer it, but justlike a court and a judge hears
the testimony, hears this whatdo you say?
What's your testimony, what'syours?
(15:59):
And he hears all the testimonyand he makes a decision about
what's going to happen.
That's just like our God hehears.
Chad (16:09):
He hears.
Steve (16:09):
Yeah, but well, how come I?
I needed the rent money anddidn't come back?
I didn't, I didn't have enoughor something.
I didn't answer my prayerbecause I asked them for this
and didn't.
No, you'll never find a placewhere, if you say this in the
right kind of way and say, inJesus' name, amen, it's going to
(16:32):
work, it'll come through.
But people love to tell storiesabout prayer, but we can be
sure that God has heard everyword and so that's a marvelous
thing.
He may respond slowly, but wemust see that our lives are part
(16:56):
of a tapestry of things thatgoes back centuries.
Many generations before we werealive, god was beginning to
hear prayers and move in certainways, and he's got a great
global purpose.
And the little times in which welive.
The number of our days is short, but he hears our prayers and,
(17:22):
in light of the large thing he'sbringing about, yeah, there's
so much in differentconversations that we've had,
steve, that are coming to mymind as you're talking, you know
.
Chad (17:34):
one is this idea that our relationship with the Father is
not transactional.
It's not the better I am asyour child, the more pleased
you're going to be with me andtherefore give me.
So the more time I pray, themore time I fast, as if my
prayers and fasting were theworks that he requires in order
to bless me.
It's really not that we treatit like that.
(17:57):
Often, someone might say, well,if you don't pray, you
shouldn't expect God to do it.
I'm not saying you shouldn't.
The way that we should approachprayer is like we're
approaching our Father, likewe're approaching a relationship
with someone that we care aboutand we love, and how much more
so does he want to have thatsame relationship with us.
And so when you think aboutverses like um, god gives
(18:18):
according to his will, you know,and and and never outside of
his will.
he's never going to do anythingthat's outside of his will right
so he's bound by his own natureto do the things that he's
pursuing his purpose.
You use the words, and so,whenever our prayers are in and
encounter will, there's no, itwill not.
Steve (18:38):
He'll hear it.
Chad (18:39):
He'll hear it.
Steve (18:40):
Yeah, but it's just like any father.
Here's this kid says oh, oh, Iwant to be, I want a triple ice
cream please.
Oh, I really want that, give me, give me.
And it says well, after supperwe might get one scoop, right,
(19:03):
but you hear a response, so it'snot.
Yeah, we ask absurd things wedon't know They'll be dangerous
and damaging.
Chad (19:13):
Well, I think about the commands that Jesus talks about,
when we always I mean, if youcommand this mountain right be
removed and thrown into the sea,and you speak it with faith,
that could happen.
You get those kinds of but thatthat's the kind of way we apply
that to prayer, like if youjust command it, it will happen,
but that's again, alwaysaccording to the will of God and
(19:34):
always according to his purpose.
Yeah, and and and.
Then also you said the not grow, not to lose heart.
You know we were talking aboutthis genesis, hebrews 12, a
little while ago, that you knowconsider him who endured such
opposition from sinners, so thatyou don't grow weary and lose
heart.
And it's talking about christ,who suffered more than any of
anyone I know and yet pursued infaith the ends that god
(19:59):
commanded him with passion, withheart, with, with confidence,
with faith, and.
And so how much that goesalongside with this conversation
.
Steve (20:07):
Well, let's say, let's come boldly to the throne of
grace, right and throne of grace, well, god thinks he's some
sort of mighty man.
I know that throne is like oh,you're safe because there's a
good father and his throne roomis the place you want to come
(20:31):
and the courtroom model doesn't.
And let me just read from thisthe courtroom model doesn't
promise that any prayerinstantly sways the mind of
God's counsel.
Many appeals are not upheld.
You can appeal it and go hmm,got a better thing to do.
There's an even better thingcould happen in the long run.
Some motions are not sustained,but we can count on God to
(20:54):
wisely weigh the lives and wordsof those who pray in light of
his purpose as it unfolds in allthe earth.
His people are his preferredwitnesses.
He loves to be calling theearth.
His people are his preferredwitnesses.
He loves to be calling thewitness.
What do you have to say aboutthis?
I think we should help him.
It's like yeah, You've done itbefore.
(21:17):
Good point, that's a goodargument.
Our prayers may seem silly tounliked angels, but even the
simplest prayer is significantbecause he helps us.
The king we approach is ourfather At our side, is heaven's
favorite son and champion.
He sends his spirit to searchout the depths of who we are,
(21:42):
aligning our muddled desireswith the surpassing majesty of
his heart.
Because of his mercy, most ofthe important cases are taking
many generations to unfold.
He knows his timing.
You can be assured every wordyou have ever prayed with any
(22:03):
kind of sincerity has been heardin heaven.
He's never forgotten.
He doesn't forget.
Not a single syllable has everbeen forgotten.
Prayer doesn't work, but God isat work.
So let's pray and approachGod's throne.
We have standing at that courtand we can pray on behalf of
(22:26):
others, pray for ourselves, butlet's appeal to him and rest and
trust and not lose heart.
Chad (22:37):
It's so good, steve.
Again, the thoughts I don'twant to steal from your class I
think you shared this story onour podcast last time that you
have daughters and you love themand each of them are your
favorite in their own way.
And how much more so when theFather says come to me all who
(22:58):
are heavy laden and burdened,and I'll give you rest.
He wants to have that closenessto us.
So I think, when I hear thiswhole presentation, what I think
is that so many times weapproach prayer like it's magic.
If I say the right things, I'llget a certain response.
If I have the right words tosay, in the right order and the
right.
You know, I've been to church,I've given my tithe, I've done
(23:20):
this.
Now God owes me, so I'm goingto just call in this favor.
You've heard people talk aboutthe credit card.
I'm just going to slide it, andwhen my debit card is empty, I
need to free-fill it in some wayand you've got to do some great
act that impresses the Lord.
That really is a pagan form ofworship, it's an idolatrous form
, using your words from today.
(23:41):
And so this idea that he's afather who's near, who's close,
who's always listening, foolishrequests, your sincere heart,
your requests.
He hears them.
He hears them, and I love whatyou just said.
Oftentimes you might pick up abook at the Christian bookstore
that says prayer works.
It's like, well, actuallyprayer is a petition, but God
(24:03):
works, prayer does it.
Prayer is not magic, it's Godat work.
Actually, prayer is a petition,but God works, prayer doesn't.
Prayer is not magic.
It's God at work and it's hispeople petitioning him.
You know, asking him.
Beseeching is a word that I'veheard Justin Long use.
Right, and this idea thatthey're just saying God, we need
you, we need you, and he'ssaying I'm here, I'm nearby and
(24:26):
I may or may not be able togrant your request.
Another thing that's so commonin our world today is this idea
that if you have faith, god willdo what you want him to do.
And yet there's so manyexamples of people who struggle,
struggle hard.
I mean people in the world whoare dying, literally dying, who
love the Lord with all theirheart and things are not being
given to them, maybe being takenfrom them, and they're asking
(24:46):
the Lord where are you?
Why aren't you taking care ofus?
Why do we lose our homes, ourjobs or whatever, and we have no
answer for that, aside from Godsaying I'm enough, I'm here,
I'm suffering with you.
I've walked this line Again.
Consider him who bore suchopposition that you don't grow
weary and lose heart.
And so this is a great word,steve.
(25:07):
I love it.
Prayer doesn't work.
God works.
Steve (25:11):
God doesn't work.
Prayer is this way of invitingus to work with him.
And at the last we're not goingto say look at all the amazing
answers to prayer we were ableto make happen.
We're not going to say anythinglike that.
We're going to say, oh, he'sfulfilled everything he's
(25:32):
promised.
He came through.
What a worthy, trustworthy God.
He heard us.
It was three centuries afterthe great-great-grandmother
prayed.
We never would have known it,but it took us three aeons into
(25:53):
heaven to find out.
Oh, she's the one who prayed.
God listened, honors that woman.
So let's keep praying.
You can't.
And you heard.
We are heard, so we can beassured of that.
He's listening carefully.
So don't not pray, because itdoesn't work for me.
(26:16):
I can't make it work.
Don't go find the prayer ladyat church because she gets
through.
That's another kind of strange,bizarre thing.
You know, Jesus taught us topray our Father.
She gets through.
That's another kind of strange,bizarre thing.
Jesus taught us to pray ourFather.
That means everybody gets in,not just the high priest and all
(26:37):
that.
So let's rejoice that God hearsour prayers.
Jonah was heard from the bellyof a fish While he was fleeing
from the belly of a fish whilehe was fleeing from God.
Chad (26:48):
He's in a positionally almost anti-God location and yet
God is listening to him andhearing his prayer and even
redeeming him in the process.
What an incredible thing.
Steve has always so fun to getto hear from your heart what
God's doing this article.
Steve (27:06):
If you'd like to read the article, it's available free
download on my website.
Chad (27:10):
If you don't mind, I'll actually put it in the show
notes.
They can click on it anddownload it from the.
Steve (27:14):
Waymakersorg.
There's other articles too, butgood.
Chad (27:18):
We'll put a link to waymakersorg on there as well,
Steve.
Thank you so much.
Steve (27:23):
Thank you.
Chad (27:27):
Thank you for your ministry and, most of all, thank
you for just bearing your heart.
Every time I see you, you'retrying to show, I'd say, the
passion that you've borrowedfrom the Lord.
It's the.
Steve (27:35):
Father's heart.
Chad (27:38):
Well, thank you, sir.
Hey, for those of you listening, I hope this has been
encouraging to you.
We'd love to talk to you somemore.
If you have any questions orthoughts, or even if you
disagree and you want to tell meabout it, I'd love to hear
about that.
So please feel free to give ussome response.
Have a wonderful day and Godbless.
We are so thankful that youjoined our podcast today.
We would love to hear anyfeedback you may have for us.
(27:59):
Remember, psalm 67 says may Godbe gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine on us,so that your ways may be known
on earth and your salvationamong all nations.
Don't forget why the Lordblesses us it's so that we can
be a blessing to those around us.
(28:19):
Until next time, god bless.
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