May 8, 2025 • 59 mins
Katherine Coles shares her journey from struggling as a first-time leader to developing a leadership philosophy centered on partnership, integrity, and continuous learning. She transforms her understanding of what makes an effective leader by recognizing that leadership requires both self-awareness and intentional relationship-building.
• Leadership isn't about compelling people to follow but creating conditions where they choose to follow
• Only 8% of the population has true self-awareness, making intentional leadership development crucial
• Leaders who don't hear, see, or acknowledge team members create the worst working environments
• Speaking truth to power requires balancing the desire to be right with the desire to be heard
• Modern organizational systems often focus on outcomes while neglecting how people experience change
• Career transitions provide opportunities to develop adaptability and depth of understanding
• Building systems that honor people as much as performance creates sustainable organizational success
• Being grounded in personal values provides protection when navigating broken systems
• Faith can provide both direction and conviction when making difficult leadership decisions
If you're navigating broken systems, feeling unheard, or seeking to develop as a more effective leader, this conversation offers practical wisdom and inspiration.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
comes to bad bosses, tell us about your experience.
Tell us about the bad bossexperience and what you learned
about yourself and them.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Well, it's like for me it goes way, way back.
I'm going, my mind is goingthrough all of the different
bosses that I've had, and I'mactually going to start with my
first experience as a boss.
I was a bad boss.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Oh, I like to do tell .
Hi, I'm Natalie Parker, welcometo.
So your Boss Sucks Now.
What have you ever had?
(00:49):
A person who's willing to speakthe truth to you, even when it
may be uncomfortable?
Well, that's my next guest.
Catherine Cole is a builder ofsystems, one that honors people
as much as performance.
She has over 20 years ofexperience in organizational
chains and she's ledtransformation efforts that
empower leaders to lead withclarity, compassion and courage.
(01:09):
As a single mother and a Blackwoman in corporate America, she
knows what it means to thrive ina space that's not built for
you.
Now that she's pursuing herdoctorate in strategic
leadership, she's proof thatit's never too late to grow, to
rise and to lead boldly.
As a woman of faith, she's thefounder a founder of decalo
leaders, a community of leaderswho follow jesus, helping people
(01:30):
live out their faith at work.
Catherine believes in the powerof learning, healing and
reshaping systems we inheritinto ones that serve.
Help me welcome, catherinecoles.
So, catherine, it's really goodto have you today.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I am Dear, dear, dear friend, welcome to the Sew your
Boss sex community I am.
I'm so excited because I am.
I've always admired you, yourenergy, your, you're literally
the opposite of me when it comesto detail, orientation, right
y'all?
Catherine used to check my work, my spelling, my grammar,
(02:11):
because I was not the queen ofdetails.
Um, and it worked well togetherwhen we were at Amtrak and I'm
so glad that, oh, oh, my gosh,we're.
I think I'm 15 years removedfrom being on track now.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, I am too actually.
No, no, no, no, it's not 15.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Nathan is like my son is in this year, so it's
probably yeah, yeah yeah, he's10.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So not 10 for you, it's one for me, because I love
to yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, yeah, oh, my, my gosh, if this is the, this is
the meaning of keeping yournetworks, people, because it
will pay dividends.
Um, so I like to ask thequestion when it comes to bad
bosses, tell, tell us about your.
You think about the worst boss,the worst situation you had.
What was the scenario, whatrole were you in?
(03:04):
You don't have to tell us thegritty details.
We want to.
You know, save the, theinnocent and the guilty, right,
but you know, tell us about yourexperience.
Tell us about the bad bossexperience and what you learned
about yourself and and them well, I, it's like.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
for me it goes way way back, way back.
My mind is going through all ofthe different bosses that I've
had, and I'm actually going tostart with my first experience
as a boss.
I was a bad boss.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Oh, do tell.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I lacked knowledge of what a leader should be.
I didn't have the knowledge, Ididn't have the awareness and I
didn't have the knowledge.
I didn't have the awareness andI didn't have the vision.
And so I have to start with.
I was a bad boss because I justdidn't know how to lead and no
one taught me.
I was based, my leadershipskills were based on how other
(03:58):
people led me, and so how Ishowed up as a follower and how
I experienced other people'sleadership is how I started
leading, and it didn't work well.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
How did you find out it wasn't working?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Oh, my goodness, it was the worst leadership
experience ever.
I mean, at the time I blamedthe person that I had hired and
so my blame went to them.
In retrospect, years later, asI've studied leadership, as I've
(04:38):
researched and been curiouswhat makes people decide whether
or not to be a part of a teamor not to be a part of a team?
What is the leader's role inthat, I realized that I did not
give them anything that theywere willing to follow, and I
think leaders miss that piece.
They think that they'resupposed to do all the work, but
(05:00):
it's actually a partnershipbetween the leader and the team
member, and team members choosewho they want to follow, and me,
being a member of a team butnot really being a member of a
team ever until later in life,kind of began to realize that
it's a partnership that I didn'talways play well with.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
So, hindsight being what it is right, it's 2020.
When did you realize, like, ooh, I was bad.
Bad.
Was it in the moment?
Or was it, like a post-op,You're doing an autopsy in this
situation?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
It was post-op in years.
It was post-op in years.
Yeah, it was post-op in years.
How can I put this?
Amtrak was yeah that was yeahokay, I'm trying to think you
know, I've been through so manytransitions in my life.
I'm trying to think Amtrak wasstarted and it was Amtrak
(06:01):
probably when I startedreflecting on my leadership and
that was coming as I began towork with leaders to help them
reflect on who they wanted to beas leaders and their leadership
style.
And in that I've had you know,I've learned that my bad leaders
(06:21):
were doing what they knew howto do without being aware of the
impact that they were having onme and not focusing on that
leadership, that leader team,member partnership, if that
makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
It does on a couple of different fronts.
I was reading an article thatsaid I think it was either HBR
or Forbes that only 8% of thepopulation has self-awareness
only 8% of the population.
And so with that in mind,coupling that with a leader not
having both self-awareness andan intention on how they want to
(06:58):
build the relationship Right, Ithink for me that's a huge
nugget for our listeners of likelisten, you will want to be mad
at your leader, and I'm notsaying you shouldn't even be mad
at them, but the assumption ofthey should know better is
probably misplaced.
Have never been told to have anintention on defining the
(07:26):
leader-follower relationship orthe partnership that they need
to have.
They are tasked with the end ofgetting an outcome, but not the
process and the atmosphere andthe culture of what it would
take to get it done well.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Exactly, exactly.
And I think I was at Amtrak, Iwas at Fannie Mae, when I
realized that I was living inthis world of they should know
better, and I was in this worldthat they knew how to lead, knew
(08:07):
how to lead, but what theydidn't know how to do was they
didn't know how to lead mebecause we didn't have a
relationship, we weren't workingas a partnership.
And so I finally have realizedand it's the epiphany, it wasn't
an epiphany, it was adevelopmental, it was an
evolution.
For me to recognize that andI'm still recognizing it.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I appreciate the candor and the vulnerability
around like, listen, I was a badleader.
I laugh all the time of theleadership journey that I've had
in my career and knowing that,ooh, I probably didn't do that
right.
I did that great, but, oof man,I could have handled that
better.
And I think it's important forfolks to know that, listen,
(08:50):
we're not always going to get itright.
You've got to give people grace.
The other thing that I've beensharing with leaders lately is
twofold.
One, how do you create anatmosphere where people can give
you that feedback?
I'm hearing from leaders like,listen, no one talks to me.
How do you create an atmospherewhere people can give you that
feedback?
I'm hearing from leaders like,listen, you know, no one talks
to me.
I just do what I need to dobecause they're not giving me
the feedback and I'm like, well,when did you ask for it and how
(09:12):
did you ask for it, and do theyfeel safe enough to give it?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
That's it right there , because I've worked with
leaders who I've asked thosesame questions and they said
well, I asked for it.
And the question comes up forme as a coach so why do you
think?
What are you?
What do you think you're doingthat's preventing them from
being feeling safe enough toprovide it.
(09:38):
And so I will sit in onleadership meetings sometimes
and kind of watch how thedynamic works and how they work
back and forth with each other,because team dynamics is one of
my passions.
I like to see how people engagewith each other, and what I
noticed, and what I give themfeedback on, is someone actually
gave you feedback, and what youdid, instead of receiving that
(10:00):
feedback, is you defended yourbehavior.
And so, quite honestly, if Igave you feedback and you
defended your behavior, and so,quite honestly, if I gave you
feedback and you defended yourbehavior, it is not likely that
I'm going to give you feedbackagain.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Listen, especially because your defense is
completely agnostic to myexperience.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
You don't care that I had an experience.
You care that you want to beright.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You're dismissing how I am receiving you and so,
therefore, you're not seeing me,nor are you hearing me, and
that's the worst leader.
That's the worst leader thatI've ever had Leaders who did
not hear me, leaders who did notacknowledge me or see me,
leaders who dismissed myperspective, even though I was
(10:50):
the one in the midst of it all.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I want to know what that looks like.
Give me the tactical symptomsof a leader not seeing you,
hearing you, understanding youor including you, especially for
people who are like I thinkthat might be me, but I'm not
sure.
What does that look like when aleader doesn't?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
hear you when the leader doesn't see you.
What does that look like?
That can look like a lot ofdifferent things For me.
I'll give you a recentexperience over the past couple
of years.
Okay, so, as you and I havetalked about before, I have been
(11:34):
, I have, I do work.
I do work in leadership andteam dynamics.
It's where my passion is.
Dynamics.
It's where my passion is.
What's included in that and hasbeen included in that is helping
people integrate diversity,equity and inclusion into their
organization.
How do we make this part of whowe are not a separate thing in
(11:57):
a part right, and that'ssomething that I've been trying
to talk about for two yearsleading up to.
We need to talk differentlyabout this thing called
diversity, equity and inclusion.
We need to expand our owninclusion.
It is not for a group of people, it is for all people, and we
(12:17):
need to start to redevelop that.
We need to start to define thatdifferently for our clients
right.
Help our clients look at it asa way of integrating and
spreading this as to how they dowork, not something separate
and apart.
They need to make sure thatthey do, and so the leaders of
(12:39):
this, of DEIA and myorganization at the time said
yes, they were nodding theirheads, and yet they were still
practicing the old script.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
All right.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And I would repeat it and over time, and they would
still practice the old script.
So how that looked as though Iwasn't being heard or being seen
is that they did not.
They would.
I would say something, but theywould keep doing what they were
doing, and so that, and that'shappened a couple of times in my
(13:14):
career.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I would raise a point , I would say something.
I would say something that Isaw, but then they would keep
doing what they were doing saysomething that I saw, but then
they would keep doing what theywere doing.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
It's funny because I think that for one of the things
that comes to mind for me isthe analogy I use.
A lot of organizations useE-D-E-I-A, e-d-e-i-a or D-E-I
whatever whatever acronym.
Your company called it at thetime as the egg after baking a
cake, right?
So like you bake the cake andthen you're like, oh, let's put
DEI in it.
(13:53):
And it's like you try to put iton top of the cake after the
cake is cold and it's iced,rather than trying to bake it
into the organizational systemand framework from the get up,
right.
And for me that unlearning Ifound in a lot of different ways
, but specifically in this spaceis really hard.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
It is.
It is really hard, and what'scome back to me over the past
three months is she told usabout this a year ago, two years
ago, and we didn't listen.
And it's not an I told you somoment, it's just do we really
listen?
Or do we really believe, asleaders, that we need to know,
(14:37):
we know better, we need to knoweverything and, as a coach, I've
worked with leaders who areovercome with I need to know
everything.
It's like no, you really don't.
That's the point of a team.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
So I want to dig in, catherine, to this idea of being
a practitioner of people andsystems.
Like, in my mind, in myexperience, you are a
practitioner of designingsystems for people to be
successful.
In your experience, like, inwhat ways have some of the
systems just not served peoplethat they like in the worst ways
(15:13):
?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You see, it biggest in change when organizational
systems go through change andthey design the change and they
say we're going to do this.
And I saw this a lot when in 19, no 2008, when the people may
be too young to know when thehousing bubble burst Right and
(15:36):
you wanted to change and a lotof organizations needed to
change their culture and so I'mnot naming names at this point.
But organizations needed tochange their culture, and so I'm
not naming names at this point.
But organizations needed tochange their culture and so they
started to design this changewithout taking into how people
were going to adapt to thischange.
How is this going to impact thepeople who had to live this
(15:58):
change?
You just kind of flip the scripton them and they're resisting.
And you're not listening toyour resistors and they're
telling you something.
They're not just being angry,they're telling you something.
So I've worked with leaders whowould just say you just have to
deal with these, theseresistors.
You just have to.
(16:19):
You just have to compel them todo what you said to do.
Just have to compel them to dowhat you said to do.
Well, that's not leadership,that is bullying it is bullying.
It is, it is, it's, it's.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
It's demonstrating a belief that people that I, that
that work on my team are thereto do what I tell them to do I,
I but I'm surprised that thereare a lot of people that lead
that way in this very um,authoritarian space, especially
(16:54):
in the leadership space.
I'm always disappointed whenI'm like we need to listen to
the pain points good, bad orindifferent, admit where you
can't even do it.
I know that's going to hurt andI'm sorry that I can't do
anything about that.
But I can offer this it's agive and a take, especially when
the system are usually notbuilt for the people.
(17:15):
We're always trying to buildfor the outcome rather than
designing it for the people whoactually do the work.
And I'm always fascinated too,because it's like if you don't
build it in a way that'sconsidering them, they're not
going to do it, they're justgoing to work around it.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I like to say that raising my children was a really
helpful in teaching me how todo that.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Say more.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Here's the thing when I raised my children, I had my
role models.
Were my parents right, and so Ididn't do everything that they
did?
But one of the things was, youknow, time out or taking away
something that was important.
So you know you're punished.
You did something child didsomething wrong.
You punished them, you put themand you know they couldn't
(18:04):
watch television.
That was my punishment Couldn'twatch television for a week.
Here's the thing.
They would do that they wouldnot watch television as long as
I was watching them.
As soon as I leave the room oras soon as I have to go to work,
the television comes on.
It's the same in the workplace.
(18:24):
People will do things the wayyou say.
You have two things that'sgoing to happen.
People will do things the wayyou say as long as you're
watching them, and as soon asyou stop watching them, they're
going to go back to what hasworked for them successfully, or
they're going to do what yousay.
It's not going to work the wayyou thought it was going to work
(18:51):
and they have absolutely noaccountability for why it didn't
work.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, and it's funny, I was having a conversation
with a group of leaders onSaturday and we were talking
about incenting employeedevelopment and I said one of
the reasons why leaders don'tdevelop employees is because
organizations have limited to noincentive for them to do it.
They are assessed on theirnumbers, they're assessed on
(19:18):
their errors, they're assessedon, you know, being able to meet
the, the tactical expectationsof the outcome, of return on
investment.
But the unembedded,indoctrinated cost of
indoctrinated cost, I don't know.
But the embedded cost of like,what does it cost to lose team
members?
What does it cost to developteam members?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I have yet to see an organization really do the
development side of requiringleaders to develop other people
do the development side ofrequiring leaders to develop
other people, and if you look atleadership development programs
and organizations, you will notsee what leaders, a leader's
role, see, a central part ofbeing a leader, and that is to
develop your team members.
You will not see that in anorganization development, in a
(20:02):
leadership development program?
Speaker 1 (20:04):
So it's interesting because it's that plus.
I don't ever see it in theirgoals.
I see the financial numbers, Isee the.
You know let's reduce the riskor safety or what have you.
But not like.
I want you to make sure thatyou are designing and creating
systems to make sure that atleast one or two of your people
are up and out or at leastpromoted, like it's usually
controlled by very few people,and you know, for me this, this
(20:27):
conversation of like the systems, the systems are usually not
made for you, they're made forthe organization, and learning
how to navigate the system isimperative for anyone who wants
to be successful in thesecorporate spaces organizations
as they grow.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Their systems are they, they need their.
Their primary purpose is how dowe accomplish what we want to
accomplish in our organizationwhile we interact and navigate
the external environment aroundus whom we serve right?
yeah and then and then in theprocess, they grow out, they
outgrow and they outgrow theirpeople and they don't know, they
(21:06):
forget to continue to includetheir team members in the vision
of what the organization istrying to do.
And then they don't evenremember to develop their
leaders, to know how to takethat vision, that larger
organizational vision, and bringit down to their particular or
their particular piece of theorganization.
(21:27):
For example, hr right.
What is the vision of HR?
Well, I know what the purposeis, but as a member of the
organization in HR, what is ourvision?
What is our vision?
What are we trying toaccomplish?
Right, and how do we tie thatto the organization's vision?
They don't develop that skillset within the system.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I agree, but I'd actually take it one step
further and say that part ofthat lack of development is,
more often than not, leadersdon't have the strategic
perspective to define it.
I'd also say that functions,especially like HR or finance,
(22:14):
don't see themselves as aninternal customer.
Like I've had copious amountsof conversations about realizing
that as a function, you'rethere to support the money
making end of the business, sothey are your customer.
And I've had knock down, dragout conversations with people
like you know, no, we're peersand yes, but they make the money
.
Like I need you to help themmake the money and all of the
(22:35):
things you should do shouldmitigate cost, time and effort
so that they can go make themoney.
I had a guy shout out to SteveBonifero, wherever you are, he
used to tell the HR functionhe's like this company does not
make HR, they make paperproducts.
Nobody's buying HR.
Unless you're like bamboo,right, nobody's buying HR.
(22:56):
You need to serve theorganization with your function,
not be a deterrent of it.
I had one leader, john Lucas.
He used to say what's the HRtax to the business?
What's the tax that we'reputting on them to try to do the
work that takes them away fromthe work that makes us money,
and a lot of departments don'tthink like that.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Correct.
For me, it's always been howdoes what you do help the
managers who make the moneyaccomplish their mission, their
vision?
How do you partner with yourteam members?
And that's what gets lost.
We are such an individualisticsociety that we forget that to
(23:37):
make organizations run well, weare partners with each other, as
well as with our customers andour stakeholders.
And so, to answer what you know,leaders, who you know, my bad
bosses are people who forgetthat, who feel that it is their
total responsibility to make medo what I need to do so that
(23:58):
they meet their numbers.
How did I adapt to thatthroughout my many roles in
corporate America is I figureout what is it that they need to
do, what's important to them.
So, even though I wasn't theboss, I still was a leader.
In that my role was to figureout what's important to you.
(24:19):
How can I help you besuccessful?
And in that I learned thesystem and that I create the
environment.
So I kind of help themaccomplish what it is that they
need to accomplish.
And the more I help themaccomplish what they need to
accomplish, the more they giveme latitude to accomplish what's
important to me.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I remember, as you were talking, I remember one of
the projects we were working ontogether and how we were with
the team and the direction wegot was like we'll design it.
And we were both like, yeah,you can't design it until you
talk to the customer becausethey've got to live with
whatever we put together.
And we took a few times on thechin advocating for let's go and
(25:04):
ask first, you know anddiagnose before we assess,
before we diagnose.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
And so how I and part of that, we went on to convince
them that that's what we neededto do.
And how did we do that?
We figured out.
What were they being measuredon?
What was keeping them up atnight as a leader?
We want to find out what keepsour team members up at night,
(25:32):
what is important to them.
Once we found out what keptthem up at night and we showed
them how our approach would helpthem get to where they wanted
to go, they gave us latitude todo what we needed to do.
They gave us time, which theydidn't want to give us, and they
gave us the people which theydidn't want to give us in the
(25:52):
beginning.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, and I think it reminds me of a book that I read
once called Every Job is aSales Job.
Right, you've got to understandwhat the client, customer,
whatever the person you'retrying to convince to partner
with needs so that they can havemutual accountability.
I say this all the time is,accountability isn't just one
way, it's a mutual agreement ofwe're trying to accomplish this
thing and you've got a part andI've got a part in how do we put
(26:15):
those parts together.
Right, I want to talk aboutyour experience as a, as a
African-American woman, theblack woman, in corporate
systems.
Like when did the system?
When has a system been justyou've been able to kind of
maneuver it and it was fineversus when you were like this
system is really not for me.
You said it earlier about likethey weren't trying to manage me
(26:37):
or lead me and they weren'tinterested in that.
Like when?
What's the most glaringexperience where you've had like
this is the system's not herefor me at all.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
I am thinking about a time.
Well, my first leadership jobwhere I was really bad at it was
one I was I was struggling with.
I only had one person to leadand I hired them, so it was my
(27:12):
very first role and I was inthere, and it was a family owned
business.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Sidebar family owned businesses are very different.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Family owned businesses are very different,
but everybody, but everybody itis.
But everybody didn't own,didn't work.
Everybody I worked with weren'tin the families, but what I'm
trying to say is they were.
As I was struggling to leadthis person, they and they had
known me for over a year andthis person was struggling to
(27:47):
follow me, and so this personwas going to them with how bad a
leader I was Right and theywouldn't.
They weren't giving me anyguidance, they were just telling
me, they just took this otherperson's side, which literally
broke my heart because I thoughtthey knew me but they didn't.
(28:10):
So that was the most glaringwhen I gave a manager feedback
on an opportunity.
(28:31):
So someone had an opportunityto take for two jobs.
This was when I was aconsultant.
They had an opportunity for twoconsulting opportunities.
One of those consultingopportunities would minimize or
almost reduce their pay.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
The other one would keep them whole right.
I was not the one making adecision.
My manager was the one making adecision.
We were talking about it, butthe one that was going to reduce
their pay was of better benefitto the manager.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
From a developmental perspective.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
From a.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Experience.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Not from experience, not from a developmental
perspective, from a numbersperspective, from based on how
the manager was going to be,what the how the manager was
going to be measured.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
OK.
Ok but it wasn't as transparent.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It wasn't as transparent.
I knew it, but I knew how.
I knew what the attempt was.
I knew what the attempt was.
It added to the manager'snumbers for them to take the
lower paying position, then forthem to take another position
that was internal, outside ofthe manager's purview, but would
keep them financially whole.
The individual was a person ofcolor.
(30:00):
Okay, and I mentioned it, I saidsomething about it.
(30:29):
I said and so the manager'sattempt to keep the person happy
but to get them to go in adirection that they wanted them
to go in, was to give themtickets to a basketball game.
And so I mentioned to themanager that optically, that
just didn't sit well with me.
So I spoke up and I said,optically, that didn't sit well
with me.
The feedback on that was thisthey did not feel as though I
(30:52):
was aligned to their vision, mewas not aligned to the manager's
vision, and they did not feelcomfortable that I was in a
leadership role on their team,that I was going to align, that
it would be a good fit for me astheir leader.
Now I'm paraphrasing that.
(31:13):
As a result, I thought aboutwhat that was going to be like
for me if a as a as a if Iremained on that on that
manager's team as a leader, butthat approach, that, that
(31:33):
decision, the conversation theywere taken aback.
They felt as though I wascalling them racist and they got
very defensive about it, and soI decided at that point that
perhaps I wasn't a good fit tobe a leader on that manager's
team but this started becauseyou had ethical concerns about
(31:53):
the way they were approachingthe placement of an employee
correct and that they weren'tnecessarily divulging all the
information and the personlooked like me.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And the person looked like me.
Yeah, right, so you left.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I didn't leave the company, I left the role.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Okay, did you have any backlash from that or no?
Well, no, I didn't, because Iwas still on this person's team,
but we were distanced, right,and you know there was a
different distance.
I had a different role and Iwent back to where you know.
(32:37):
I did not need to know, I didnot support them in making those
kinds of decisions anymore,support them in making those
kinds of decisions anymore.
But so I did go to them and Inegotiated what my new role
would be Good for you.
I went and said okay, so Idon't think that I'm going to be
(32:59):
a good fit for you in this role, and so here's what I'd like to
do.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
And so here's what I'd like to do looking back at
that decision, are you at allkind of hindsight being what it
is?
Are you at all curious about?
You know whether or not youmade the right decision, or if
you should have like reportedhim or, you know, was he causing
more damage after the fact?
Because I do think it is.
(33:25):
A lot of reason why many peopledon't speak up is because they
don't want to get into therisk-taking of what I'll say.
Speaking truth to power.
And I think you know our rolesare that, like innately, our
roles are to be catalysts and tobe an impetus for change and to
(33:46):
say, look, you're, you're theyou're you gotta.
You're kind of jacked up, let'slet's take a look at this in
the most you know, lovingly,diplomatic way and sometimes the
most direct way.
Did did you been thinking aboutwhat you know?
Having had that experience,would you do it differently?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
No, no, I don't regret doing that at all.
It was the right thing to do.
I have to live with myselfultimately.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
And which is actually why I'm starting.
You know, decola leaders.
I had the right thing.
I had to live with thatdecision.
I don't regret that decisionwhatsoever.
It took, and I did develop areputation of I would tell you
(34:37):
the truth, whether you like towant it to hear it or not.
I was going to tell you how Iwas going to tell you my truth.
I'm not going to say the truth,but I was going to tell you my
truth.
I was going to provide you withfeedback as to how I observed
something, and that wassomething that people expected
of me and actually began toquite honestly respect from me
(35:01):
and actually began to quitehonestly respect from me.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Listen, it's a very big thing to have the brand of
truth teller, especially whenmany folks will be silent, right
, and so I know I've been both arecipient and a witness to your
truth telling.
But for anyone who's had theopportunity, I think it's really
important for you to decidewhat can you and cannot live
(35:27):
with.
I know one of the things that Italk about, especially from a
generational difference, isthere's a level of both
diplomacy that I find at thisphase and stage of my career
that I probably didn't have 20years ago, where I was way more
rage against the machine versussome of the folks that are
(35:49):
coming into the workforce now,who are way more apt to be
extremely blunt with theirobservations and opinions.
What would you say to?
You know everyone listeningabout like what's the shift
that's happening generationallyand you know if you had your way
(36:10):
, what would happen instead ofwhat's happening right now.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So actually this happened before and at FPA, I
had one of my managers asked meto read something and I use it
all the time now when I'mcoaching leaders and they were
responding.
This manager was extremelyblunt, had a reputation for
being blunt in the organizationand I was working late.
They were working late, Iwalked by their office, I stuck
(36:36):
my head in.
They asked me to read an emailthat they were getting ready to
send and asked me what I thoughtabout it.
And I read the email.
My question to her was itdepends on what the outcome you
want.
Do you want to be heard or doyou want to be right, and what
(36:57):
good is right?
And her answer was I want to beheard.
I said well then, here's what Iwould recommend you do to
modify this.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Because what this is about is more about you than
about resolving the concerns.
It takes a lot of humilityright To be like, okay, what's
the end goal?
Because, especially if we'vebeen offended, we want to go
right into being justified orrectified or setting the record
straight.
And I found in my career thatI've I don't want to say I've
missed opportunity.
Maybe I have, but I'vedefinitely damaged relationships
(37:33):
because I wanted to be right.
I talked about it in seasonwhere I straight up and down
called a guy a liar in a meetingwith multiple people.
Like I was like sir, you arelying, you're lying.
I would not recommend thatbecause it was just, it was a
detriment to the relationship.
He was not trying to be on anyteam with me after that and
(37:55):
there were more constructive,more, I think, more creative
ways to get to what I was tryingto get to.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
And that's what's important.
It's thinking about where areyou trying to go?
Sometimes you just and I willask people I said do you want to
just say, be able to say what'son your mind and walk away, or
do you want to preserve therelationship and rectify
whatever the conflict is?
And sometimes, sometimes, Ijust want to say what I want to
(38:29):
say, and that's okay.
But let's be real clear thatyou're real clear as to what
you're trying to accomplish,right?
But, it's always a partnershipLeaders and team members.
It's a partnership, it's atwo-way street.
Leaders can't do it withouttheir team members, but team
members do want someone who isgoing to set the vision and
(38:53):
inspire them.
You can't motivate people, butyou can inspire people.
And so how are you going to dothat?
But I would say, you know, mosttimes I want to be heard and so
I have to stop and think aboutit.
The biggest thing I've learnedin the past 10 years of doing
(39:13):
this work is I don't have torespond immediately, have to
respond immediately.
I can give myself some time tosettle into the emotion of the
situation and then respond whenI am closer to getting the
outcomes that I want.
Not to say I haven't notstepped into it, but I also
(39:38):
recognize and own that it was my.
You know, I had a choice andthat's the choice I took.
Maybe it wasn't the best choice, but I made that choice.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
And I think it's important to know when and when
you do not want to make thatchoice Right and when you want
to be very clear that this isthe line you will not cross it,
and let's make sure we bothunderstand our boundaries.
Um, but that shouldn't happenevery day.
Unless there's some big problem, then you should call hr.
All right, so you've one of thefascinating things I love about
(40:11):
your.
The arc of your career is justthat you've been in so many
different industries and you'veredefined yourself over and over
again, especially raising afamily.
Talk to us about that.
All of those transitions youknow, or not all of them, at
least some key ones and howdoing that as you're raising a
(40:33):
family, cause I think a lot oftimes women and men alike will
will forego the shift, thechange, to preserve an
equilibrium that they can manageuntil the kids get older, and
what have you?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
So I like to call myself well.
I am a non-traditional student.
I started my career as anadministrative assistant and
took that to executive assistant, administrative assistant and
took that to executive assistant.
So at one point in my career Iwas the executive assistant to
(41:07):
the CEO of an accounting firm,and that has come, and in that
first that was about the first20, 30 years of my career I
changed jobs every two years andI changed jobs every two and a
half to three years.
That's two and a half to three.
It's because I got bored ofdoing the same thing.
But what I learned in thatseason was to adapt to cultures
(41:31):
really, really quickly.
I learned how to go into anorganization and learn how they
do what they do quickly and howto learn what they do quickly to
help make my manager's visioncome to fruition.
I learned where the centers ofpower were.
I learned how to influence.
(41:53):
I learned how to learn whatpeople needed provide that so
that I could have freedom to dowhat needed to be done.
And in that period I wasraising two children by myself,
for the most part.
At some point during yeah, in2008, during the housing
(42:15):
collapse it was time for me todo something different.
My manager had just said you'vereached the top of what you can
do here.
I for me to do somethingdifferent.
My manager had just said you'vereached the top of what you can
do here.
I need you to do somethingdifferent.
And so I did.
I applied for somethingdifferent.
I applied to be a change leaderas the organization was
changing its culture, and that'swhat took me into getting my
(42:35):
master's degree in organizationdevelopment.
Before that I got mycommunicate, my my best and
communications, and then I wentand got my.
Six months later I went and gotmy master's degree in
organization development andwhen I left that program that
(42:59):
was transitioning from what Iknew.
I had been an administrative.
I knew how to get a job to bean executive assistant.
I was good at it and I knew howto do it.
But when I graduated with mymaster's, I had to get another.
I didn't want to be anadministrative assistant.
I had to do something different.
I had to and I didn't know howto do it, had no clue how to do
(43:22):
it, and I prayed, because I'm awoman of faith, and I kept
praying and I actually got laidoff my last semester of the
master's program and I actuallyasked to be laid off.
They were laying people off andI asked to be laid off.
They were laying people off andI asked to be laid off because
I needed to get out of where Iwas and get out of where I was
(43:46):
without having to pay back mytuition assistance Time out.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Let's put a pause in the meter right there.
There is a great wisdom inknowing when to take a package.
There's a great wisdom ofknowing like and knowing like oh
, I need to shift, I need totransaction.
There's no, I don't thinkthere's a greater catalyst,
other than being terminatedoutright, of knowing like you
(44:11):
know what they're offering thispackage I should take it.
I get some lump sum, I get sometime, I get a little bit of
everything so that I can makethis shift.
And having a wisdom and anunderstanding and guts to do it
right for all of you are outthere like, oh, my god.
I mean, sometimes taking thepackage is not a bad thing,
especially especially if you areconsidered, you know, well
(44:35):
suited for your job, a highpotential or whatever.
Because one, they'll miss youand being missed is a good thing
.
That means you might be able tocome back.
And two, you also have skillsthat somebody else will want.
So sometimes taking the packageis a really good thing.
I appreciate you bringing thatup for sure and I was on.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
I was on um unemployment for four months.
In that time, never went hungry, never missed a car note, never
.
You know.
My kids had everything theyneeded to go to school and I
call that.
I call that grace and blessingsand coverage.
And then I just kind of started.
(45:14):
When I was ready to go back towork, I just started praying
because I didn't know how tolook for it.
One of my fears when I finishedmy program was how am I going
to do this work that I've spenttwo and a half years learning
how to do?
I didn't know how and I stayedin prayer and I said I just need
someone to say yes.
And I know that if someone saysyes, I will be fine, it will
(45:37):
take off.
And it did it, did it, it, ittook off.
Um, I did a six month umfellowship with an organization
way, which was perfect timing.
Someone reached out for me,reached out to me and said I was
looking, I'm looking for anorganization development
practitioner.
Someone recommended your nameand I went and interviewed and I
(46:00):
was at Booz Allen Hamilton foralmost four years and then I got
put on the bench.
And when you were on the bench,if you're a consultant.
When you're on the bench, youlook internal and you look
external.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
It's a contract and you've's it's a contract and you
you've got to take care of yourcareer, and so I got a phone
call from a headhunter that washiring at Amtrak, and so you
know that's the same headhunter.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
It's funny.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Four and a half years and then they changed
leadership.
I took a path.
I took another package and Iwas self-employed for about six
months and got a phone call thatsomeone was looking for an
organization developmentpractitioner and a coach.
(46:56):
And I gave them my name and Iinterviewed and I got hired by
Suntiva and I was there and Iwas there and then they sold to
my last employer and I was therefor over about five and a half
years.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
And in all of those cases, you are beating the
national average and being withthe company right.
The national average right now,according to the Bureau of
Labor Statistics, is 3.8 years,and I will say that one of the
things that I loved aboutworking with you is this idea of
creating depth in yourexperiences not having the same
(47:37):
experience over and over again,but having depth so that you
have a deep understanding andknowledge of the systems and the
functions you're working in.
But then also to continuouslylearn and rev up your skills.
And I want you to talk to usabout the decision to go
doctorate right, especially inthe season of your life.
(47:59):
Doctorate right especially inthe season of your life why,
what led you, what have youlearned and why does?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
this still excite you to still be learning.
Well, I want to go back aminute to the anthrax thing.
I was at antrax for four and ahalf years, but I changed roles
every two.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Okay, so I wanted to, because we don't have adhd
catherine, we just do a whole.
You know how much we did in twoyears at Amtrak.
We put together we worked witha team that put together an
entire competency model, theentire approach for a 20,000
person organization.
At the time, I think I put theperformance management system in
(48:39):
place and I think you helpedwith the designing of the
training.
We did so much and I don't evenremember what all you were
working on in the two years thatI was there.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
We created a whole.
I moved to the operations side.
So I moved from the HR side tothe operations side and led a
team to change their wholecustomer experience, whole
customer experience.
So they wanted, they wanted tochange that, they wanted to do a
new customer service trainingand we did a whole customer
experience um program for themthat's right.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
I remember that and I think the key to being able to
do that is when you establishtrust, you can go really fast
with your customers because theywere hungry and we we had those
quick wins quickly to be ablelike, okay, now let me show you
what I can do, if we just wereable to do it.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
But talk to me about this degree soon to be doctor,
soon to be dr coles so, um,interestingly enough, I've been
flirting with getting mydoctorate for 15 years, so
almost as soon as I finished mymasters, and I just couldn't.
I just you know.
But when they say, when you goafter your doctorate, you 15
years, so almost as soon as Ifinished my master's and I just
couldn't.
I just you know.
But when they say, when you goafter your doctorate, you need
to know what your dissertationis going to be in.
(49:46):
And one of the things that Iwanted to do is, you know, when
you go after your PhD, youbecome a researcher.
So your work is about creatingnew theory.
My opinion there is a plethoraof theory on leadership.
We have been studyingleadership for centuries, not
(50:08):
decades, centuries.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
And still don't have a common definition or common
frameworks, common assessmentsor anything.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Correct, correct.
In fact, I'm working on a blogabout that right now.
So, yes, and so I had beenpraying about it and thinking
about it, and I'm sitting inchurch one day this was over a
year ago.
I'm sitting in church one dayand I had talked to people at
(50:37):
Regent, and I talked to a lot ofpeople.
It wasn't the first interviewthat I had had, but I wanted a
program that applied.
Helped leaders apply theory,not create theory.
Help leaders apply.
You have plenty of people whoare creating theory, but it
(51:00):
falls flat.
Leaders are still trying tofigure out what do I do and how
do I do it and how does this?
You know what does this looklike and you know it's one thing
to say I'm a transformationalleader, but what is that for
real?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
OK, it's one thing to say.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
I'm an authentic leadership.
But what does that do and howdoes that impact?
And we fall back into oldpatterns because we can't apply
it very well, right.
And so when I talked to theregion, their program was about
application.
So it's a doctorate ofstrategic leadership and it's
about application of theory.
And so it's me going deep intotheory and then learning, and
(51:38):
then learning how, and teachingothers how to apply it.
And so I'm sitting in churchone day and I'm, you know,
enjoying the service, and Iy'all might think I'm crazy but
I hear in my head I want you togo to Regent and start your
doctorate program.
I'm like, okay, but I don'tknow how to pay for that.
I was like God, you're going totell me how to pay for that.
(51:58):
And sure enough, he't know howto pay for that.
I was like God, you're going totell me how to pay for that.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
And, sure enough, he showed me how to pay for it.
He showed me how to, and so Ijust started.
And it just started, it justhappened.
I love the simplicity and eveninnocence of like okay, I'll do
it, but how am I going to do it?
Like the voter rule, like Idon't know, you know, I ain't
got the money, you know.
So if this is what we both know, how are we going to do it?
Because, because a lot of timeI am again, we're opposites.
He'll probably he would tell me, like you're going to go
(52:29):
through that wall and I'd bebanging my head against the wall
trying to go through it beforeI asked like no, wait a minute,
give me the instruction.
So don't be like me, children,don't be like me.
I love that, and that has nowevolved into you being a
business owner, and I'm soexcited.
I feel like I've been waitingfor this for a long time.
(52:50):
You've been a solopreneur formultiple iterations of your life
, but this is different.
What is it and how different isit to where you are?
Speaker 2 (53:01):
but this is different .
What is it and how different isit to where you are?
So the other times that I'vetried and I have been trying to
be an I've been dipping my toeinto entrepreneurship since you
know, even when I was anadministrative assistant, I've
been dipping my toe in and atone point I had given up on it.
And then I'm studyingleadership and it happened the
(53:22):
same way.
The difference is previously Iwas trying to do it in my own
power and I was trying to decidewhat it should be about.
This one I am leaning on theHoly Spirit to create and he's
already telling.
He's told me what it's going tobe about, and so I'm just doing
what he tells me to do.
And that's the difference.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
Listen, it's a good thing to not only be a leader
but to be led, and so, for thoseof you who have, you know,
whatever faith you might, youknow, adhere to Catherine.
And I are unapologeticallyChristian, but that said, and I
are unapologetically Christian,but that said, I think it's
(54:06):
really a beautiful thing to haveboth the conviction and the I'd
say the experience, like thepoints on the board, to say you
know, I trust it and this iswhat happened right, so I'm glad
for that.
What advice would you give,catherine, for people who are
trying to lead inside of systemsthat they know are broken, that
aren't built for them?
What advice would you give them?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Be grounded in who you are as a leader.
We kind of fall into it and westart just kind of walking,
putting one foot in front of theother, and what people really
need are leaders who are humble,who are courageous and have
integrity, but foremost, thathas a focus.
(54:51):
Know what your focus is.
Who are you?
How are your values and yourbeliefs tied to the vision for
what you want to achieve for theorganization?
Organizations teach you how tobe leaders to achieve their
mission.
But even in an organization,you can have a heart for your
(55:17):
team and I have found andobserved you have a heart.
You can have a heart for yourteam, and I have found and
observed.
And when I talk to teams, whenI'm working with a leader and
I'm talking to their teams,they're looking for a leader who
will create, who will, you know, give them the vision, help
them understand the vision andhold to that vision through
integrity, through humility andthrough courage through humility
(55:46):
and through courage.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
I love that because I think, if I am convinced that
if you don't know what yourpurpose is and what your values
are, the organization will givethem to you.
And, more often than not, if aperson doesn't understand a
thing, they are more likely tomisuse it or abuse it.
So if the organization doesn'tunderstand you, they are more
likely to misuse it or abuse it.
So if the organization doesn'tunderstand you, they are more
likely to misuse you, misplaceyou or abuse you and your
skillset.
And so, knowing yourself as apart of the defense of both your
(56:11):
identity and the expression ofwho you are, and keeping real to
what you believe in when thosechallenges do come, when people
do try to test your ethics oryour integrity or what have you
have that grounding.
I appreciate that.
So what's next for you,catherine?
What's next?
Speaker 2 (56:30):
What's next for me, preferably looking to launch
Decolo Leaders in the next sixweeks.
I'm looking for five people whowant to pioneer this with me.
It's a community of leaders,and with that we will work to
(56:51):
talk about what does it mean tolead others?
What does it mean to follow?
What are my values?
What do I believe, what is myfocus?
Defining that I've coached alot of leaders who don't know
how to develop their strategybecause they don't know what
their focus is, they don't knowwhat their vision is, and so,
with Decalit leaders, we willtalk about how do you develop
(57:11):
your vision, what is your focus,who are you following and why
should someone follow you?
Why?
And so we will be starting that.
We'll be doing some groupcoaching.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
We'll be doing some service.
Speaker 2 (57:29):
And we'll be developing, doing what I've been
doing for others, but puttingleaders in the workplace that
follow Jesus and taking that tothe workplace without having to
preach to them, but simply modela place of caring and concern
(57:52):
and commitment to success.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
And compassion right, especially the death of the
Pope.
We watched all of the thingsright and just the level of
compassion.
I saw a, a clip where they tooka picture of his shoes and how
shoes were scuffed and worn, andhe asked for that because he
wanted people to see that he wassomeone who walked among them,
who served, he was a servantleader, and that is such a it a
(58:20):
it's a meaningful thing, butit's also an intentional thing
that you have to live out and Ilove that.
Your mission is to develop thatin others.
And I will tell you folks,catherine Coles is the real deal
, and so if you want to beinvolved, if you want to get
connected with her, we'll haveher information in the chat and
in the information that weprovide in the show notes so
(58:40):
that you can get connected withher.
You will not be disappointed bythe investment of connecting
with her and her community.
Catherine, I want to thank youfor coming on today.
I love your life.
Connect with her on LinkedIn.
We'll also give you herinformation, but we really
appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
Thank you for having me.
I love you, I love you.
Speaker 1 (59:00):
You know I do.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom.
Or, if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
(59:21):
thenataliearkercom.
Or if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
thenataliparkercom.
comes to bad bosses, tell us about your experience.
Tell us about the bad bossexperience and what you learned
about yourself and them.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Well, it's like for me it goes way, way back.
I'm going, my mind is goingthrough all of the different
bosses that I've had, and I'mactually going to start with my
first experience as a boss.
I was a bad boss.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Oh, I like to do tell .
Hi, I'm Natalie Parker, welcometo.
So your Boss Sucks Now.
What have you ever had?
(00:49):
A person who's willing to speakthe truth to you, even when it
may be uncomfortable?
Well, that's my next guest.
Catherine Cole is a builder ofsystems, one that honors people
as much as performance.
She has over 20 years ofexperience in organizational
chains and she's ledtransformation efforts that
empower leaders to lead withclarity, compassion and courage.
(01:09):
As a single mother and a Blackwoman in corporate America, she
knows what it means to thrive ina space that's not built for
you.
Now that she's pursuing herdoctorate in strategic
leadership, she's proof thatit's never too late to grow, to
rise and to lead boldly.
As a woman of faith, she's thefounder a founder of decalo
leaders, a community of leaderswho follow jesus, helping people
(01:30):
live out their faith at work.
Catherine believes in the powerof learning, healing and
reshaping systems we inheritinto ones that serve.
Help me welcome, catherinecoles.
So, catherine, it's really goodto have you today.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I am Dear, dear, dear friend, welcome to the Sew your
Boss sex community I am.
I'm so excited because I am.
I've always admired you, yourenergy, your, you're literally
the opposite of me when it comesto detail, orientation, right
y'all?
Catherine used to check my work, my spelling, my grammar,
(02:11):
because I was not the queen ofdetails.
Um, and it worked well togetherwhen we were at Amtrak and I'm
so glad that, oh, oh, my gosh,we're.
I think I'm 15 years removedfrom being on track now.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, I am too actually.
No, no, no, no, it's not 15.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Nathan is like my son is in this year, so it's
probably yeah, yeah yeah, he's10.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So not 10 for you, it's one for me, because I love
to yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, yeah, oh, my, my gosh, if this is the, this is
the meaning of keeping yournetworks, people, because it
will pay dividends.
Um, so I like to ask thequestion when it comes to bad
bosses, tell, tell us about your.
You think about the worst boss,the worst situation you had.
What was the scenario, whatrole were you in?
(03:04):
You don't have to tell us thegritty details.
We want to.
You know, save the, theinnocent and the guilty, right,
but you know, tell us about yourexperience.
Tell us about the bad bossexperience and what you learned
about yourself and and them well, I, it's like.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
for me it goes way way back, way back.
My mind is going through all ofthe different bosses that I've
had, and I'm actually going tostart with my first experience
as a boss.
I was a bad boss.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Oh, do tell.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I lacked knowledge of what a leader should be.
I didn't have the knowledge, Ididn't have the awareness and I
didn't have the knowledge.
I didn't have the awareness andI didn't have the vision.
And so I have to start with.
I was a bad boss because I justdidn't know how to lead and no
one taught me.
I was based, my leadershipskills were based on how other
(03:58):
people led me, and so how Ishowed up as a follower and how
I experienced other people'sleadership is how I started
leading, and it didn't work well.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
How did you find out it wasn't working?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Oh, my goodness, it was the worst leadership
experience ever.
I mean, at the time I blamedthe person that I had hired and
so my blame went to them.
In retrospect, years later, asI've studied leadership, as I've
(04:38):
researched and been curiouswhat makes people decide whether
or not to be a part of a teamor not to be a part of a team?
What is the leader's role inthat, I realized that I did not
give them anything that theywere willing to follow, and I
think leaders miss that piece.
They think that they'resupposed to do all the work, but
(05:00):
it's actually a partnershipbetween the leader and the team
member, and team members choosewho they want to follow, and me,
being a member of a team butnot really being a member of a
team ever until later in life,kind of began to realize that
it's a partnership that I didn'talways play well with.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
So, hindsight being what it is right, it's 2020.
When did you realize, like, ooh, I was bad.
Bad.
Was it in the moment?
Or was it, like a post-op,You're doing an autopsy in this
situation?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
It was post-op in years.
It was post-op in years.
Yeah, it was post-op in years.
How can I put this?
Amtrak was yeah that was yeahokay, I'm trying to think you
know, I've been through so manytransitions in my life.
I'm trying to think Amtrak wasstarted and it was Amtrak
(06:01):
probably when I startedreflecting on my leadership and
that was coming as I began towork with leaders to help them
reflect on who they wanted to beas leaders and their leadership
style.
And in that I've had you know,I've learned that my bad leaders
(06:21):
were doing what they knew howto do without being aware of the
impact that they were having onme and not focusing on that
leadership, that leader team,member partnership, if that
makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
It does on a couple of different fronts.
I was reading an article thatsaid I think it was either HBR
or Forbes that only 8% of thepopulation has self-awareness
only 8% of the population.
And so with that in mind,coupling that with a leader not
having both self-awareness andan intention on how they want to
(06:58):
build the relationship Right, Ithink for me that's a huge
nugget for our listeners of likelisten, you will want to be mad
at your leader, and I'm notsaying you shouldn't even be mad
at them, but the assumption ofthey should know better is
probably misplaced.
Have never been told to have anintention on defining the
(07:26):
leader-follower relationship orthe partnership that they need
to have.
They are tasked with the end ofgetting an outcome, but not the
process and the atmosphere andthe culture of what it would
take to get it done well.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Exactly, exactly.
And I think I was at Amtrak, Iwas at Fannie Mae, when I
realized that I was living inthis world of they should know
better, and I was in this worldthat they knew how to lead, knew
(08:07):
how to lead, but what theydidn't know how to do was they
didn't know how to lead mebecause we didn't have a
relationship, we weren't workingas a partnership.
And so I finally have realizedand it's the epiphany, it wasn't
an epiphany, it was adevelopmental, it was an
evolution.
For me to recognize that andI'm still recognizing it.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I appreciate the candor and the vulnerability
around like, listen, I was a badleader.
I laugh all the time of theleadership journey that I've had
in my career and knowing that,ooh, I probably didn't do that
right.
I did that great, but, oof man,I could have handled that
better.
And I think it's important forfolks to know that, listen,
(08:50):
we're not always going to get itright.
You've got to give people grace.
The other thing that I've beensharing with leaders lately is
twofold.
One, how do you create anatmosphere where people can give
you that feedback?
I'm hearing from leaders like,listen, no one talks to me.
How do you create an atmospherewhere people can give you that
feedback?
I'm hearing from leaders like,listen, you know, no one talks
to me.
I just do what I need to dobecause they're not giving me
the feedback and I'm like, well,when did you ask for it and how
(09:12):
did you ask for it, and do theyfeel safe enough to give it?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
That's it right there , because I've worked with
leaders who I've asked thosesame questions and they said
well, I asked for it.
And the question comes up forme as a coach so why do you
think?
What are you?
What do you think you're doingthat's preventing them from
being feeling safe enough toprovide it.
(09:38):
And so I will sit in onleadership meetings sometimes
and kind of watch how thedynamic works and how they work
back and forth with each other,because team dynamics is one of
my passions.
I like to see how people engagewith each other, and what I
noticed, and what I give themfeedback on, is someone actually
gave you feedback, and what youdid, instead of receiving that
(10:00):
feedback, is you defended yourbehavior.
And so, quite honestly, if Igave you feedback and you
defended your behavior, and so,quite honestly, if I gave you
feedback and you defended yourbehavior, it is not likely that
I'm going to give you feedbackagain.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Listen, especially because your defense is
completely agnostic to myexperience.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
You don't care that I had an experience.
You care that you want to beright.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You're dismissing how I am receiving you and so,
therefore, you're not seeing me,nor are you hearing me, and
that's the worst leader.
That's the worst leader thatI've ever had Leaders who did
not hear me, leaders who did notacknowledge me or see me,
leaders who dismissed myperspective, even though I was
(10:50):
the one in the midst of it all.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I want to know what that looks like.
Give me the tactical symptomsof a leader not seeing you,
hearing you, understanding youor including you, especially for
people who are like I thinkthat might be me, but I'm not
sure.
What does that look like when aleader doesn't?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
hear you when the leader doesn't see you.
What does that look like?
That can look like a lot ofdifferent things For me.
I'll give you a recentexperience over the past couple
of years.
Okay, so, as you and I havetalked about before, I have been
(11:34):
, I have, I do work.
I do work in leadership andteam dynamics.
It's where my passion is.
Dynamics.
It's where my passion is.
What's included in that and hasbeen included in that is helping
people integrate diversity,equity and inclusion into their
organization.
How do we make this part of whowe are not a separate thing in
(11:57):
a part right, and that'ssomething that I've been trying
to talk about for two yearsleading up to.
We need to talk differentlyabout this thing called
diversity, equity and inclusion.
We need to expand our owninclusion.
It is not for a group of people, it is for all people, and we
(12:17):
need to start to redevelop that.
We need to start to define thatdifferently for our clients
right.
Help our clients look at it asa way of integrating and
spreading this as to how they dowork, not something separate
and apart.
They need to make sure thatthey do, and so the leaders of
(12:39):
this, of DEIA and myorganization at the time said
yes, they were nodding theirheads, and yet they were still
practicing the old script.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
All right.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And I would repeat it and over time, and they would
still practice the old script.
So how that looked as though Iwasn't being heard or being seen
is that they did not.
They would.
I would say something, but theywould keep doing what they were
doing, and so that, and that'shappened a couple of times in my
(13:14):
career.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I would raise a point , I would say something.
I would say something that Isaw, but then they would keep
doing what they were doing saysomething that I saw, but then
they would keep doing what theywere doing.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
It's funny because I think that for one of the things
that comes to mind for me isthe analogy I use.
A lot of organizations useE-D-E-I-A, e-d-e-i-a or D-E-I
whatever whatever acronym.
Your company called it at thetime as the egg after baking a
cake, right?
So like you bake the cake andthen you're like, oh, let's put
DEI in it.
(13:53):
And it's like you try to put iton top of the cake after the
cake is cold and it's iced,rather than trying to bake it
into the organizational systemand framework from the get up,
right.
And for me that unlearning Ifound in a lot of different ways
, but specifically in this spaceis really hard.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
It is.
It is really hard, and what'scome back to me over the past
three months is she told usabout this a year ago, two years
ago, and we didn't listen.
And it's not an I told you somoment, it's just do we really
listen?
Or do we really believe, asleaders, that we need to know,
(14:37):
we know better, we need to knoweverything and, as a coach, I've
worked with leaders who areovercome with I need to know
everything.
It's like no, you really don't.
That's the point of a team.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
So I want to dig in, catherine, to this idea of being
a practitioner of people andsystems.
Like, in my mind, in myexperience, you are a
practitioner of designingsystems for people to be
successful.
In your experience, like, inwhat ways have some of the
systems just not served peoplethat they like in the worst ways
(15:13):
?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You see, it biggest in change when organizational
systems go through change andthey design the change and they
say we're going to do this.
And I saw this a lot when in 19, no 2008, when the people may
be too young to know when thehousing bubble burst Right and
(15:36):
you wanted to change and a lotof organizations needed to
change their culture and so I'mnot naming names at this point.
But organizations needed tochange their culture, and so I'm
not naming names at this point.
But organizations needed tochange their culture and so they
started to design this changewithout taking into how people
were going to adapt to thischange.
How is this going to impact thepeople who had to live this
(15:58):
change?
You just kind of flip the scripton them and they're resisting.
And you're not listening toyour resistors and they're
telling you something.
They're not just being angry,they're telling you something.
So I've worked with leaders whowould just say you just have to
deal with these, theseresistors.
You just have to.
(16:19):
You just have to compel them todo what you said to do.
Just have to compel them to dowhat you said to do.
Well, that's not leadership,that is bullying it is bullying.
It is, it is, it's, it's.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
It's demonstrating a belief that people that I, that
that work on my team are thereto do what I tell them to do I,
I but I'm surprised that thereare a lot of people that lead
that way in this very um,authoritarian space, especially
(16:54):
in the leadership space.
I'm always disappointed whenI'm like we need to listen to
the pain points good, bad orindifferent, admit where you
can't even do it.
I know that's going to hurt andI'm sorry that I can't do
anything about that.
But I can offer this it's agive and a take, especially when
the system are usually notbuilt for the people.
(17:15):
We're always trying to buildfor the outcome rather than
designing it for the people whoactually do the work.
And I'm always fascinated too,because it's like if you don't
build it in a way that'sconsidering them, they're not
going to do it, they're justgoing to work around it.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I like to say that raising my children was a really
helpful in teaching me how todo that.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Say more.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Here's the thing when I raised my children, I had my
role models.
Were my parents right, and so Ididn't do everything that they
did?
But one of the things was, youknow, time out or taking away
something that was important.
So you know you're punished.
You did something child didsomething wrong.
You punished them, you put themand you know they couldn't
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watch television.
That was my punishment Couldn'twatch television for a week.
Here's the thing.
They would do that they wouldnot watch television as long as
I was watching them.
As soon as I leave the room oras soon as I have to go to work,
the television comes on.
It's the same in the workplace.
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People will do things the wayyou say.
You have two things that'sgoing to happen.
People will do things the wayyou say as long as you're
watching them, and as soon asyou stop watching them, they're
going to go back to what hasworked for them successfully, or
they're going to do what yousay.
It's not going to work the wayyou thought it was going to work
(18:51):
and they have absolutely noaccountability for why it didn't
work.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, and it's funny, I was having a conversation
with a group of leaders onSaturday and we were talking
about incenting employeedevelopment and I said one of
the reasons why leaders don'tdevelop employees is because
organizations have limited to noincentive for them to do it.
They are assessed on theirnumbers, they're assessed on
(19:18):
their errors, they're assessedon, you know, being able to meet
the, the tactical expectationsof the outcome, of return on
investment.
But the unembedded,indoctrinated cost of
indoctrinated cost, I don't know.
But the embedded cost of like,what does it cost to lose team
members?
What does it cost to developteam members?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I have yet to see an organization really do the
development side of requiringleaders to develop other people
do the development side ofrequiring leaders to develop
other people, and if you look atleadership development programs
and organizations, you will notsee what leaders, a leader's
role, see, a central part ofbeing a leader, and that is to
develop your team members.
You will not see that in anorganization development, in a
(20:02):
leadership development program?
Speaker 1 (20:04):
So it's interesting because it's that plus.
I don't ever see it in theirgoals.
I see the financial numbers, Isee the.
You know let's reduce the riskor safety or what have you.
But not like.
I want you to make sure thatyou are designing and creating
systems to make sure that atleast one or two of your people
are up and out or at leastpromoted, like it's usually
controlled by very few people,and you know, for me this, this
(20:27):
conversation of like the systems, the systems are usually not
made for you, they're made forthe organization, and learning
how to navigate the system isimperative for anyone who wants
to be successful in thesecorporate spaces organizations
as they grow.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Their systems are they, they need their.
Their primary purpose is how dowe accomplish what we want to
accomplish in our organizationwhile we interact and navigate
the external environment aroundus whom we serve right?
yeah and then and then in theprocess, they grow out, they
outgrow and they outgrow theirpeople and they don't know, they
(21:06):
forget to continue to includetheir team members in the vision
of what the organization istrying to do.
And then they don't evenremember to develop their
leaders, to know how to takethat vision, that larger
organizational vision, and bringit down to their particular or
their particular piece of theorganization.
(21:27):
For example, hr right.
What is the vision of HR?
Well, I know what the purposeis, but as a member of the
organization in HR, what is ourvision?
What is our vision?
What are we trying toaccomplish?
Right, and how do we tie thatto the organization's vision?
They don't develop that skillset within the system.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I agree, but I'd actually take it one step
further and say that part ofthat lack of development is,
more often than not, leadersdon't have the strategic
perspective to define it.
I'd also say that functions,especially like HR or finance,
(22:14):
don't see themselves as aninternal customer.
Like I've had copious amountsof conversations about realizing
that as a function, you'rethere to support the money
making end of the business, sothey are your customer.
And I've had knock down, dragout conversations with people
like you know, no, we're peersand yes, but they make the money
.
Like I need you to help themmake the money and all of the
(22:35):
things you should do shouldmitigate cost, time and effort
so that they can go make themoney.
I had a guy shout out to SteveBonifero, wherever you are, he
used to tell the HR functionhe's like this company does not
make HR, they make paperproducts.
Nobody's buying HR.
Unless you're like bamboo,right, nobody's buying HR.
(22:56):
You need to serve theorganization with your function,
not be a deterrent of it.
I had one leader, john Lucas.
He used to say what's the HRtax to the business?
What's the tax that we'reputting on them to try to do the
work that takes them away fromthe work that makes us money,
and a lot of departments don'tthink like that.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Correct.
For me, it's always been howdoes what you do help the
managers who make the moneyaccomplish their mission, their
vision?
How do you partner with yourteam members?
And that's what gets lost.
We are such an individualisticsociety that we forget that to
(23:37):
make organizations run well, weare partners with each other, as
well as with our customers andour stakeholders.
And so, to answer what you know,leaders, who you know, my bad
bosses are people who forgetthat, who feel that it is their
total responsibility to make medo what I need to do so that
(23:58):
they meet their numbers.
How did I adapt to thatthroughout my many roles in
corporate America is I figureout what is it that they need to
do, what's important to them.
So, even though I wasn't theboss, I still was a leader.
In that my role was to figureout what's important to you.
(24:19):
How can I help you besuccessful?
And in that I learned thesystem and that I create the
environment.
So I kind of help themaccomplish what it is that they
need to accomplish.
And the more I help themaccomplish what they need to
accomplish, the more they giveme latitude to accomplish what's
important to me.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I remember, as you were talking, I remember one of
the projects we were working ontogether and how we were with
the team and the direction wegot was like we'll design it.
And we were both like, yeah,you can't design it until you
talk to the customer becausethey've got to live with
whatever we put together.
And we took a few times on thechin advocating for let's go and
(25:04):
ask first, you know anddiagnose before we assess,
before we diagnose.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
And so how I and part of that, we went on to convince
them that that's what we neededto do.
And how did we do that?
We figured out.
What were they being measuredon?
What was keeping them up atnight as a leader?
We want to find out what keepsour team members up at night,
(25:32):
what is important to them.
Once we found out what keptthem up at night and we showed
them how our approach would helpthem get to where they wanted
to go, they gave us latitude todo what we needed to do.
They gave us time, which theydidn't want to give us, and they
gave us the people which theydidn't want to give us in the
(25:52):
beginning.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, and I think it reminds me of a book that I read
once called Every Job is aSales Job.
Right, you've got to understandwhat the client, customer,
whatever the person you'retrying to convince to partner
with needs so that they can havemutual accountability.
I say this all the time is,accountability isn't just one
way, it's a mutual agreement ofwe're trying to accomplish this
thing and you've got a part andI've got a part in how do we put
(26:15):
those parts together.
Right, I want to talk aboutyour experience as a, as a
African-American woman, theblack woman, in corporate
systems.
Like when did the system?
When has a system been justyou've been able to kind of
maneuver it and it was fineversus when you were like this
system is really not for me.
You said it earlier about likethey weren't trying to manage me
(26:37):
or lead me and they weren'tinterested in that.
Like when?
What's the most glaringexperience where you've had like
this is the system's not herefor me at all.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
I am thinking about a time.
Well, my first leadership jobwhere I was really bad at it was
one I was I was struggling with.
I only had one person to leadand I hired them, so it was my
(27:12):
very first role and I was inthere, and it was a family owned
business.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Sidebar family owned businesses are very different.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Family owned businesses are very different,
but everybody, but everybody itis.
But everybody didn't own,didn't work.
Everybody I worked with weren'tin the families, but what I'm
trying to say is they were.
As I was struggling to leadthis person, they and they had
known me for over a year andthis person was struggling to
(27:47):
follow me, and so this personwas going to them with how bad a
leader I was Right and theywouldn't.
They weren't giving me anyguidance, they were just telling
me, they just took this otherperson's side, which literally
broke my heart because I thoughtthey knew me but they didn't.
(28:10):
So that was the most glaringwhen I gave a manager feedback
on an opportunity.
(28:31):
So someone had an opportunityto take for two jobs.
This was when I was aconsultant.
They had an opportunity for twoconsulting opportunities.
One of those consultingopportunities would minimize or
almost reduce their pay.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
The other one would keep them whole right.
I was not the one making adecision.
My manager was the one making adecision.
We were talking about it, butthe one that was going to reduce
their pay was of better benefitto the manager.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
From a developmental perspective.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
From a.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Experience.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Not from experience, not from a developmental
perspective, from a numbersperspective, from based on how
the manager was going to be,what the how the manager was
going to be measured.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
OK.
Ok but it wasn't as transparent.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It wasn't as transparent.
I knew it, but I knew how.
I knew what the attempt was.
I knew what the attempt was.
It added to the manager'snumbers for them to take the
lower paying position, then forthem to take another position
that was internal, outside ofthe manager's purview, but would
keep them financially whole.
The individual was a person ofcolor.
(30:00):
Okay, and I mentioned it, I saidsomething about it.
(30:29):
I said and so the manager'sattempt to keep the person happy
but to get them to go in adirection that they wanted them
to go in, was to give themtickets to a basketball game.
And so I mentioned to themanager that optically, that
just didn't sit well with me.
So I spoke up and I said,optically, that didn't sit well
with me.
The feedback on that was thisthey did not feel as though I
(30:52):
was aligned to their vision, mewas not aligned to the manager's
vision, and they did not feelcomfortable that I was in a
leadership role on their team,that I was going to align, that
it would be a good fit for me astheir leader.
Now I'm paraphrasing that.
(31:13):
As a result, I thought aboutwhat that was going to be like
for me if a as a as a if Iremained on that on that
manager's team as a leader, butthat approach, that, that
(31:33):
decision, the conversation theywere taken aback.
They felt as though I wascalling them racist and they got
very defensive about it, and soI decided at that point that
perhaps I wasn't a good fit tobe a leader on that manager's
team but this started becauseyou had ethical concerns about
(31:53):
the way they were approachingthe placement of an employee
correct and that they weren'tnecessarily divulging all the
information and the personlooked like me.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And the person looked like me.
Yeah, right, so you left.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I didn't leave the company, I left the role.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Okay, did you have any backlash from that or no?
Well, no, I didn't, because Iwas still on this person's team,
but we were distanced, right,and you know there was a
different distance.
I had a different role and Iwent back to where you know.
(32:37):
I did not need to know, I didnot support them in making those
kinds of decisions anymore,support them in making those
kinds of decisions anymore.
But so I did go to them and Inegotiated what my new role
would be Good for you.
I went and said okay, so Idon't think that I'm going to be
(32:59):
a good fit for you in this role, and so here's what I'd like to
do.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
And so here's what I'd like to do looking back at
that decision, are you at allkind of hindsight being what it
is?
Are you at all curious about?
You know whether or not youmade the right decision, or if
you should have like reportedhim or, you know, was he causing
more damage after the fact?
Because I do think it is.
(33:25):
A lot of reason why many peopledon't speak up is because they
don't want to get into therisk-taking of what I'll say.
Speaking truth to power.
And I think you know our rolesare that, like innately, our
roles are to be catalysts and tobe an impetus for change and to
(33:46):
say, look, you're, you're theyou're you gotta.
You're kind of jacked up, let'slet's take a look at this in
the most you know, lovingly,diplomatic way and sometimes the
most direct way.
Did did you been thinking aboutwhat you know?
Having had that experience,would you do it differently?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
No, no, I don't regret doing that at all.
It was the right thing to do.
I have to live with myselfultimately.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
And which is actually why I'm starting.
You know, decola leaders.
I had the right thing.
I had to live with thatdecision.
I don't regret that decisionwhatsoever.
It took, and I did develop areputation of I would tell you
(34:37):
the truth, whether you like towant it to hear it or not.
I was going to tell you how Iwas going to tell you my truth.
I'm not going to say the truth,but I was going to tell you my
truth.
I was going to provide you withfeedback as to how I observed
something, and that wassomething that people expected
of me and actually began toquite honestly respect from me
(35:01):
and actually began to quitehonestly respect from me.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Listen, it's a very big thing to have the brand of
truth teller, especially whenmany folks will be silent, right
, and so I know I've been both arecipient and a witness to your
truth telling.
But for anyone who's had theopportunity, I think it's really
important for you to decidewhat can you and cannot live
(35:27):
with.
I know one of the things that Italk about, especially from a
generational difference, isthere's a level of both
diplomacy that I find at thisphase and stage of my career
that I probably didn't have 20years ago, where I was way more
rage against the machine versussome of the folks that are
(35:49):
coming into the workforce now,who are way more apt to be
extremely blunt with theirobservations and opinions.
What would you say to?
You know everyone listeningabout like what's the shift
that's happening generationallyand you know if you had your way
(36:10):
, what would happen instead ofwhat's happening right now.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So actually this happened before and at FPA, I
had one of my managers asked meto read something and I use it
all the time now when I'mcoaching leaders and they were
responding.
This manager was extremelyblunt, had a reputation for
being blunt in the organizationand I was working late.
They were working late, Iwalked by their office, I stuck
(36:36):
my head in.
They asked me to read an emailthat they were getting ready to
send and asked me what I thoughtabout it.
And I read the email.
My question to her was itdepends on what the outcome you
want.
Do you want to be heard or doyou want to be right, and what
(36:57):
good is right?
And her answer was I want to beheard.
I said well then, here's what Iwould recommend you do to
modify this.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Because what this is about is more about you than
about resolving the concerns.
It takes a lot of humilityright To be like, okay, what's
the end goal?
Because, especially if we'vebeen offended, we want to go
right into being justified orrectified or setting the record
straight.
And I found in my career thatI've I don't want to say I've
missed opportunity.
Maybe I have, but I'vedefinitely damaged relationships
(37:33):
because I wanted to be right.
I talked about it in seasonwhere I straight up and down
called a guy a liar in a meetingwith multiple people.
Like I was like sir, you arelying, you're lying.
I would not recommend thatbecause it was just, it was a
detriment to the relationship.
He was not trying to be on anyteam with me after that and
(37:55):
there were more constructive,more, I think, more creative
ways to get to what I was tryingto get to.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
And that's what's important.
It's thinking about where areyou trying to go?
Sometimes you just and I willask people I said do you want to
just say, be able to say what'son your mind and walk away, or
do you want to preserve therelationship and rectify
whatever the conflict is?
And sometimes, sometimes, Ijust want to say what I want to
(38:29):
say, and that's okay.
But let's be real clear thatyou're real clear as to what
you're trying to accomplish,right?
But, it's always a partnershipLeaders and team members.
It's a partnership, it's atwo-way street.
Leaders can't do it withouttheir team members, but team
members do want someone who isgoing to set the vision and
(38:53):
inspire them.
You can't motivate people, butyou can inspire people.
And so how are you going to dothat?
But I would say, you know, mosttimes I want to be heard and so
I have to stop and think aboutit.
The biggest thing I've learnedin the past 10 years of doing
(39:13):
this work is I don't have torespond immediately, have to
respond immediately.
I can give myself some time tosettle into the emotion of the
situation and then respond whenI am closer to getting the
outcomes that I want.
Not to say I haven't notstepped into it, but I also
(39:38):
recognize and own that it was my.
You know, I had a choice andthat's the choice I took.
Maybe it wasn't the best choice, but I made that choice.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
And I think it's important to know when and when
you do not want to make thatchoice Right and when you want
to be very clear that this isthe line you will not cross it,
and let's make sure we bothunderstand our boundaries.
Um, but that shouldn't happenevery day.
Unless there's some big problem, then you should call hr.
All right, so you've one of thefascinating things I love about
(40:11):
your.
The arc of your career is justthat you've been in so many
different industries and you'veredefined yourself over and over
again, especially raising afamily.
Talk to us about that.
All of those transitions youknow, or not all of them, at
least some key ones and howdoing that as you're raising a
(40:33):
family, cause I think a lot oftimes women and men alike will
will forego the shift, thechange, to preserve an
equilibrium that they can manageuntil the kids get older, and
what have you?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
So I like to call myself well.
I am a non-traditional student.
I started my career as anadministrative assistant and
took that to executive assistant, administrative assistant and
took that to executive assistant.
So at one point in my career Iwas the executive assistant to
(41:07):
the CEO of an accounting firm,and that has come, and in that
first that was about the first20, 30 years of my career I
changed jobs every two years andI changed jobs every two and a
half to three years.
That's two and a half to three.
It's because I got bored ofdoing the same thing.
But what I learned in thatseason was to adapt to cultures
(41:31):
really, really quickly.
I learned how to go into anorganization and learn how they
do what they do quickly and howto learn what they do quickly to
help make my manager's visioncome to fruition.
I learned where the centers ofpower were.
I learned how to influence.
(41:53):
I learned how to learn whatpeople needed provide that so
that I could have freedom to dowhat needed to be done.
And in that period I wasraising two children by myself,
for the most part.
At some point during yeah, in2008, during the housing
(42:15):
collapse it was time for me todo something different.
My manager had just said you'vereached the top of what you can
do here.
I for me to do somethingdifferent.
My manager had just said you'vereached the top of what you can
do here.
I need you to do somethingdifferent.
And so I did.
I applied for somethingdifferent.
I applied to be a change leaderas the organization was
changing its culture, and that'swhat took me into getting my
(42:35):
master's degree in organizationdevelopment.
Before that I got mycommunicate, my my best and
communications, and then I wentand got my.
Six months later I went and gotmy master's degree in
organization development andwhen I left that program that
(42:59):
was transitioning from what Iknew.
I had been an administrative.
I knew how to get a job to bean executive assistant.
I was good at it and I knew howto do it.
But when I graduated with mymaster's, I had to get another.
I didn't want to be anadministrative assistant.
I had to do something different.
I had to and I didn't know howto do it, had no clue how to do
(43:22):
it, and I prayed, because I'm awoman of faith, and I kept
praying and I actually got laidoff my last semester of the
master's program and I actuallyasked to be laid off.
They were laying people off andI asked to be laid off.
They were laying people off andI asked to be laid off because
I needed to get out of where Iwas and get out of where I was
(43:46):
without having to pay back mytuition assistance Time out.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Let's put a pause in the meter right there.
There is a great wisdom inknowing when to take a package.
There's a great wisdom ofknowing like and knowing like oh
, I need to shift, I need totransaction.
There's no, I don't thinkthere's a greater catalyst,
other than being terminatedoutright, of knowing like you
(44:11):
know what they're offering thispackage I should take it.
I get some lump sum, I get sometime, I get a little bit of
everything so that I can makethis shift.
And having a wisdom and anunderstanding and guts to do it
right for all of you are outthere like, oh, my god.
I mean, sometimes taking thepackage is not a bad thing,
especially especially if you areconsidered, you know, well
(44:35):
suited for your job, a highpotential or whatever.
Because one, they'll miss youand being missed is a good thing
.
That means you might be able tocome back.
And two, you also have skillsthat somebody else will want.
So sometimes taking the packageis a really good thing.
I appreciate you bringing thatup for sure and I was on.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
I was on um unemployment for four months.
In that time, never went hungry, never missed a car note, never
.
You know.
My kids had everything theyneeded to go to school and I
call that.
I call that grace and blessingsand coverage.
And then I just kind of started.
(45:14):
When I was ready to go back towork, I just started praying
because I didn't know how tolook for it.
One of my fears when I finishedmy program was how am I going
to do this work that I've spenttwo and a half years learning
how to do?
I didn't know how and I stayedin prayer and I said I just need
someone to say yes.
And I know that if someone saysyes, I will be fine, it will
(45:37):
take off.
And it did it, did it, it, ittook off.
Um, I did a six month umfellowship with an organization
way, which was perfect timing.
Someone reached out for me,reached out to me and said I was
looking, I'm looking for anorganization development
practitioner.
Someone recommended your nameand I went and interviewed and I
(46:00):
was at Booz Allen Hamilton foralmost four years and then I got
put on the bench.
And when you were on the bench,if you're a consultant.
When you're on the bench, youlook internal and you look
external.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
It's a contract and you've's it's a contract and you
you've got to take care of yourcareer, and so I got a phone
call from a headhunter that washiring at Amtrak, and so you
know that's the same headhunter.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
It's funny.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Four and a half years and then they changed
leadership.
I took a path.
I took another package and Iwas self-employed for about six
months and got a phone call thatsomeone was looking for an
organization developmentpractitioner and a coach.
(46:56):
And I gave them my name and Iinterviewed and I got hired by
Suntiva and I was there and Iwas there and then they sold to
my last employer and I was therefor over about five and a half
years.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
And in all of those cases, you are beating the
national average and being withthe company right.
The national average right now,according to the Bureau of
Labor Statistics, is 3.8 years,and I will say that one of the
things that I loved aboutworking with you is this idea of
creating depth in yourexperiences not having the same
(47:37):
experience over and over again,but having depth so that you
have a deep understanding andknowledge of the systems and the
functions you're working in.
But then also to continuouslylearn and rev up your skills.
And I want you to talk to usabout the decision to go
doctorate right, especially inthe season of your life.
(47:59):
Doctorate right especially inthe season of your life why,
what led you, what have youlearned and why does?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
this still excite you to still be learning.
Well, I want to go back aminute to the anthrax thing.
I was at antrax for four and ahalf years, but I changed roles
every two.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Okay, so I wanted to, because we don't have adhd
catherine, we just do a whole.
You know how much we did in twoyears at Amtrak.
We put together we worked witha team that put together an
entire competency model, theentire approach for a 20,000
person organization.
At the time, I think I put theperformance management system in
(48:39):
place and I think you helpedwith the designing of the
training.
We did so much and I don't evenremember what all you were
working on in the two years thatI was there.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
We created a whole.
I moved to the operations side.
So I moved from the HR side tothe operations side and led a
team to change their wholecustomer experience, whole
customer experience.
So they wanted, they wanted tochange that, they wanted to do a
new customer service trainingand we did a whole customer
experience um program for themthat's right.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
I remember that and I think the key to being able to
do that is when you establishtrust, you can go really fast
with your customers because theywere hungry and we we had those
quick wins quickly to be ablelike, okay, now let me show you
what I can do, if we just wereable to do it.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
But talk to me about this degree soon to be doctor,
soon to be dr coles so, um,interestingly enough, I've been
flirting with getting mydoctorate for 15 years, so
almost as soon as I finished mymasters, and I just couldn't.
I just you know.
But when they say, when you goafter your doctorate, you 15
years, so almost as soon as Ifinished my master's and I just
couldn't.
I just you know.
But when they say, when you goafter your doctorate, you need
to know what your dissertationis going to be in.
(49:46):
And one of the things that Iwanted to do is, you know, when
you go after your PhD, youbecome a researcher.
So your work is about creatingnew theory.
My opinion there is a plethoraof theory on leadership.
We have been studyingleadership for centuries, not
(50:08):
decades, centuries.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
And still don't have a common definition or common
frameworks, common assessmentsor anything.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Correct, correct.
In fact, I'm working on a blogabout that right now.
So, yes, and so I had beenpraying about it and thinking
about it, and I'm sitting inchurch one day this was over a
year ago.
I'm sitting in church one dayand I had talked to people at
(50:37):
Regent, and I talked to a lot ofpeople.
It wasn't the first interviewthat I had had, but I wanted a
program that applied.
Helped leaders apply theory,not create theory.
Help leaders apply.
You have plenty of people whoare creating theory, but it
(51:00):
falls flat.
Leaders are still trying tofigure out what do I do and how
do I do it and how does this?
You know what does this looklike and you know it's one thing
to say I'm a transformationalleader, but what is that for
real?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
OK, it's one thing to say.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
I'm an authentic leadership.
But what does that do and howdoes that impact?
And we fall back into oldpatterns because we can't apply
it very well, right.
And so when I talked to theregion, their program was about
application.
So it's a doctorate ofstrategic leadership and it's
about application of theory.
And so it's me going deep intotheory and then learning, and
(51:38):
then learning how, and teachingothers how to apply it.
And so I'm sitting in churchone day and I'm, you know,
enjoying the service, and Iy'all might think I'm crazy but
I hear in my head I want you togo to Regent and start your
doctorate program.
I'm like, okay, but I don'tknow how to pay for that.
I was like God, you're going totell me how to pay for that.
(51:58):
And sure enough, he't know howto pay for that.
I was like God, you're going totell me how to pay for that.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
And, sure enough, he showed me how to pay for it.
He showed me how to, and so Ijust started.
And it just started, it justhappened.
I love the simplicity and eveninnocence of like okay, I'll do
it, but how am I going to do it?
Like the voter rule, like Idon't know, you know, I ain't
got the money, you know.
So if this is what we both know, how are we going to do it?
Because, because a lot of timeI am again, we're opposites.
He'll probably he would tell me, like you're going to go
(52:29):
through that wall and I'd bebanging my head against the wall
trying to go through it beforeI asked like no, wait a minute,
give me the instruction.
So don't be like me, children,don't be like me.
I love that, and that has nowevolved into you being a
business owner, and I'm soexcited.
I feel like I've been waitingfor this for a long time.
(52:50):
You've been a solopreneur formultiple iterations of your life
, but this is different.
What is it and how different isit to where you are?
Speaker 2 (53:01):
but this is different .
What is it and how different isit to where you are?
So the other times that I'vetried and I have been trying to
be an I've been dipping my toeinto entrepreneurship since you
know, even when I was anadministrative assistant, I've
been dipping my toe in and atone point I had given up on it.
And then I'm studyingleadership and it happened the
(53:22):
same way.
The difference is previously Iwas trying to do it in my own
power and I was trying to decidewhat it should be about.
This one I am leaning on theHoly Spirit to create and he's
already telling.
He's told me what it's going tobe about, and so I'm just doing
what he tells me to do.
And that's the difference.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
Listen, it's a good thing to not only be a leader
but to be led, and so, for thoseof you who have, you know,
whatever faith you might, youknow, adhere to Catherine.
And I are unapologeticallyChristian, but that said, and I
are unapologetically Christian,but that said, I think it's
(54:06):
really a beautiful thing to haveboth the conviction and the I'd
say the experience, like thepoints on the board, to say you
know, I trust it and this iswhat happened right, so I'm glad
for that.
What advice would you give,catherine, for people who are
trying to lead inside of systemsthat they know are broken, that
aren't built for them?
What advice would you give them?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Be grounded in who you are as a leader.
We kind of fall into it and westart just kind of walking,
putting one foot in front of theother, and what people really
need are leaders who are humble,who are courageous and have
integrity, but foremost, thathas a focus.
(54:51):
Know what your focus is.
Who are you?
How are your values and yourbeliefs tied to the vision for
what you want to achieve for theorganization?
Organizations teach you how tobe leaders to achieve their
mission.
But even in an organization,you can have a heart for your
(55:17):
team and I have found andobserved you have a heart.
You can have a heart for yourteam, and I have found and
observed.
And when I talk to teams, whenI'm working with a leader and
I'm talking to their teams,they're looking for a leader who
will create, who will, you know, give them the vision, help
them understand the vision andhold to that vision through
integrity, through humility andthrough courage through humility
(55:46):
and through courage.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
I love that because I think, if I am convinced that
if you don't know what yourpurpose is and what your values
are, the organization will givethem to you.
And, more often than not, if aperson doesn't understand a
thing, they are more likely tomisuse it or abuse it.
So if the organization doesn'tunderstand you, they are more
likely to misuse it or abuse it.
So if the organization doesn'tunderstand you, they are more
likely to misuse you, misplaceyou or abuse you and your
skillset.
And so, knowing yourself as apart of the defense of both your
(56:11):
identity and the expression ofwho you are, and keeping real to
what you believe in when thosechallenges do come, when people
do try to test your ethics oryour integrity or what have you
have that grounding.
I appreciate that.
So what's next for you,catherine?
What's next?
Speaker 2 (56:30):
What's next for me, preferably looking to launch
Decolo Leaders in the next sixweeks.
I'm looking for five people whowant to pioneer this with me.
It's a community of leaders,and with that we will work to
(56:51):
talk about what does it mean tolead others?
What does it mean to follow?
What are my values?
What do I believe, what is myfocus?
Defining that I've coached alot of leaders who don't know
how to develop their strategybecause they don't know what
their focus is, they don't knowwhat their vision is, and so,
with Decalit leaders, we willtalk about how do you develop
(57:11):
your vision, what is your focus,who are you following and why
should someone follow you?
Why?
And so we will be starting that.
We'll be doing some groupcoaching.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
We'll be doing some service.
Speaker 2 (57:29):
And we'll be developing, doing what I've been
doing for others, but puttingleaders in the workplace that
follow Jesus and taking that tothe workplace without having to
preach to them, but simply modela place of caring and concern
(57:52):
and commitment to success.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
And compassion right, especially the death of the
Pope.
We watched all of the thingsright and just the level of
compassion.
I saw a, a clip where they tooka picture of his shoes and how
shoes were scuffed and worn, andhe asked for that because he
wanted people to see that he wassomeone who walked among them,
who served, he was a servantleader, and that is such a it a
(58:20):
it's a meaningful thing, butit's also an intentional thing
that you have to live out and Ilove that.
Your mission is to develop thatin others.
And I will tell you folks,catherine Coles is the real deal
, and so if you want to beinvolved, if you want to get
connected with her, we'll haveher information in the chat and
in the information that weprovide in the show notes so
(58:40):
that you can get connected withher.
You will not be disappointed bythe investment of connecting
with her and her community.
Catherine, I want to thank youfor coming on today.
I love your life.
Connect with her on LinkedIn.
We'll also give you herinformation, but we really
appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
Thank you for having me.
I love you, I love you.
Speaker 1 (59:00):
You know I do.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom.
Or, if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
(59:21):
thenataliearkercom.
Or if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
thenataliparkercom.
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