S2 E1: Your Identity Shouldn't Be a Casualty of Your Career Path featuring Ayana Coston

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What happens when toxic leadership meets talented professionals? In this riveting conversation with executive coach Ayanna Coston, we unpack the painful reality of navigating bad bosses while preserving your authentic self.

Ayana shares her experience with her first corporate boss—a leader who disappeared when things went well but materialized instantly when problems arose. She introduces us to the "throw the rock syndrome," where bosses criticize without providing direction, leaving employees endlessly guessing what success looks like. This experience taught Ayanna to advocate for herself through strategic questioning and maintain her integrity despite challenging circumstances.

The conversation takes a powerful turn as we explore how professionals from marginalized backgrounds often compromise their identities to succeed in corporate environments. From code-switching to changing hairstyles, both hosts share personal stories of the sacrifices made to appear "acceptable" in professional spaces. As Ayana notes, "For years I didn't wear sewing weaves, I didn't wear braids... but it took a toll and damaged my hair." This candid discussion highlights how younger generations are increasingly rejecting these compromises.

We also tackle the declining interest in management positions, with Ayana revealing that 85-90% of her coaching clients express reluctance to pursue leadership roles. This trend signals a significant shift in how professionals view career advancement, challenging organizations to create alternative paths for technical experts who deserve recognition without managing people.

The episode concludes with practical wisdom for anyone struggling with difficult leadership, emphasizing self-knowledge and intentional responses to workplace challenges. As Ayana advises, "Pick battles big enough to matter but small enough to win." Whether you're dealing with a toxic boss or navigating organizational politics, this conversation offers strategies to survive, thrive, and maintain your authentic self along the way.

Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
Share your bad boss story on our website.
Learn more or Book Natalie.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So when you think about that, what did you learn?
From the situation, because Ibelieve you have to take away
something from all of the crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Look to Jesus and read your Bible so that you are
equipped with something to go inthere too.
I'm so serious I'm not evensaying that in a bad way I
really feel like I got closer toGod in that job because I had
to say you are not acting like.
You were taught Go and seek theword and be kind to other
people, and I needed to show updifferently.

(00:29):
But I also was taught to askbetter questions.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
I was hey, it's me again, Natalie Parker, and
welcome to.
So your Boss Sucks.
Now what I am excited.
I'm excited.
So this entire season has beenabout HR and we've talked to a

(00:56):
ton of different people abouttheir perspective, their
experience, and I'm excited tohave my friend.
She is the coach's coach, she'sthe coach connoisseur, the
coach extraordinaire, the oneand only Ayanna Koston.
Let me tell you about Ayanna.
So, when I think about peoplewho are born to do what they do,
she is bar none that person,and I would also venture to say

(01:18):
she's probably somebody thattalks more than me, and so this
is about to be a very livelyinterview.
So buckle up your seats andwelcome my friend, ayanna.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Coston.
Hi Nan, I do talk more than youprobably, and faster so thanks
for coming on.
I can't say I've been lookingforward to this, and getting to
do it with you makes it special.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
So yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am, We've known each other,
for I'm not going to say it waswe were oldest, we are auntie
level now.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
I'm at the auntie age and I feel it in my bones.
I didn't feel it back in theday.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay, okay, I do so I'm excited, I'm excited.
So you know the name of thepodcast is so your Boss Sucks.
Now what I want to first startoff by talking about your worst
boss experience.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
I got to go to my first boss.
My first real corporate bosswas my absolute worst.
It was a nightmare.
I probably have real nightmaredreams about it at 22 years old,
fresh out of college, greenbehind the ears, as an HR
business partner.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Okay, what made it so bad?

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Where do we begin?
The best way I can put it isthe person was just nasty, mean
and aggressive.
Nasty how?
So?
My very first job.
You're coming in, at least forme y'all.
I'm expecting the warm andfuzzies I'm expected.
This is my first job.
Somebody nurturing you that partRight.
They want you to succeed.

(02:50):
And I think even furthermore, Ihad this real weird story,
natalie, that they were going tohelp me do my job and teach me
how to do parts of my jobBecause you're new, because I'm
new and I had worked at like avision place before and had
worked for ophthalmologists, solike high schoolish type of jobs
.
But I thought, oh, corporate,they're going to say I expect
this, do this and it's going tobe great.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
So whether the person was horrible or my expectations
were off no, they were horribleit was because I came in and it
was a lot of ambiguity and theneverything we did I did I got
negative feedback.
For this is wrong.
This is wrong and I'm okay withfeedback.
I grew up in a household wherewe got feedback spankings,

(03:33):
beatings and punishments, so itwasn't that I was averse to
feedback, it was I was averse toyou, didn't give me any
direction, and then the feedbackyou gave was nasty, negative
and incorrect.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
You know it's interesting.
I would imagine you wereprobably a little bit like me
where you were a good student,right, so yeah.
So you come to a place wherethere's a lot of structure.
Like you do this assignment,you pass it and you get a grade
Absolutely.
So then you come into corporateAmerica expecting some level of
clear direction and you don'tget it.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
I wouldn't even take in a little gray direction.
This was non-existent and itwas fuzzy.
And I'm a student that not onlywants to A, I want the
opportunity for extra credit.
Let's just I just did.
I went to Catholic school.
I was always top of my class inpublic school.
So to come in and I'm in thisbrand new role and let me
preface the role as an HRbusiness partner.
We're dealing with conflictevery day.

(04:24):
We're dealing with bademployees, bad managers.
I'm not getting paid enough.
I don't like my cubicle becauseit's brown.
I don't like the contract thatI'm on, so we're already dealing
with hard things.
So this particular leader, theywere very aggressive and also
very absent and I thinksometimes people think of bad

(04:45):
bosses as they're in your facebeing bad.
She was bad because shedisappeared and she only showed
up to say, ayana, you're doingthis wrong, which, again, it
doesn't bother me that I'm doingit wrong.
So I would ask questions waybefore I was a coach, like, well
, what does right look like?
And I wouldn't get a responsefigure it out.
So this is back when I learnedthat whole throw the rock

(05:07):
syndrome.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Oh, yes, I tell this story all the time in coaching
and in in speeches, right, right.
So if you don't know what throwthe rock exercise is, it's
basically the Goldilocks of workSomeone is going to tell you.
So the story goes that, um, ayoung man went to a sensei and
the sensei said find me a rock,right.
And he goes and finds the rockand he brings the rock back and
he says oh, no, that rock is toosmall.

(05:28):
Go get me another rock.
And the young man goes and getsanother rock.
No, that rock is too big.
Third rock that rock is toogreen.
Fourth rock that rock is tooblue.
And the kid can never catch upfor it before he finally stops
and says what kind of rock doyou want?
Describe it to me, what coloris it?

(05:52):
What's the comfort?
What's the origin?
Because you get this Goldilocksof this is too hot, this is too
cold, this is too soft, this istoo hard.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Right and I'm a pretty direct person, so for me
I don't mind that you said it'swrong.
But before I was a coach and Iknew what coaching was, I said,
well, what does good look like?
And the answer that I got wasjust keep trying, just keep
doing it and see I you know, Iknew Jesus back in the day, but
I don't know him Like I know himnow.
In my forties I knew Jesus, butin my mind the things that I

(06:17):
was going to say, I had myfamily in the background, like
don't go mess up this goodgovernment job, even though it
was a government contract job.
I had them in my head Don't beyou, ayanna because they knew I
was the kid that I'm an Aries.
I'm a middle child.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
You know I'm not even all into the Zodiac, but I'm a
little spicy, so I was a person.
Let's be very clear we're bothAries and we will both I guess,
being from Jersey, that you knowbeing from Philly, like listen
we will cut you.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
So there were things in my head that I knew not to
say because I could hear like,oh my gosh, I'm going to get
fired.
But then even the things that Idid say I think she wasn't used
to someone pushing back, so Ihad a lot of support at the time
.
I still see those names in myhead I won't put too many out
just because but I still see thenames of the support that
helped me, including one of ouradmins at the time.
I won't put her name out.
Carolyn was just amazing andshe said to me one day it's not

(07:05):
you, it's her.
Doesn't that make?

Speaker 1 (07:07):
you feel better.
I feel like I've had so manypeople whisper like okay, we
know they're crazy but, it's notyou and it's like.
What's frustrating about thatis that most people know it's
not the employee, but you haveno recourse.
But it does make you feel moresane.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
But so for me, 22 years old, fresh out of college,
first real corporate experience, I'm not knowing what to expect
.
My saving grace, natalie, wasat the time.
You know I did the LDP program,and LDP is a leadership
development program and it putsyou through a rotation for two
years of different assignments.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
That's every six months.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Every six months to a year, yeah yeah, this
assignment was the longest yearof my absolute positive life and
the thing that made the leaderbad.
I remember my six month review.
Again, the leader was absent,which is what I may have said,
but they would only show up whensomething was a problem.
So for all y'all bosses outthere that might be bad, it
might be struggling.
Show up all the time, don'tjust show up when something is

(08:05):
wrong.
So all the great things I didnever got acknowledged.
But the minute that somethingwasn't written right, wasn't
researched right oh, you didn'tsay the right answer to this
situation they would show upliterally turning red, with
devil horns on the top of theirears, yelling at the top of
their.
Now they're long.
I grew up in a house withyelling, cussing, screaming and
beatings.

(08:25):
I didn't think that that cameinto work.
Everything, minus the physicalabuse, was there and I may or
may not have thought, oh, shegot me.
You know what up, she got meeffed up.
This may or may not have beenwhat I was thinking.
And so, six months in, I getthis review and it was nothing
glowing, except she shows up towork.
And I knew better than that.

(08:46):
I knew that I gave theemployees my best.
The projects my best.
My colleagues gave glowingfeedback, but it was her
feedback that just went into hownegative it was.
So I remember I wish I couldhave found it writing back.
You're only as good as yourleader is.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
You know what's interesting Mic drop.
You know it's interesting, micdrop.
You know it's interestingbecause I had that same leader
right.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
And I didn't realize that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Right, and I remember again fresh out of college
you're expecting some level ofsupport, some direction.
And I remember the things shesaid to me when I was like she
was upset about something thatdidn't happen.
It was like you didn't do this,this, this and this and this.
And I said, well, what wouldyou have me?

Speaker 2 (09:31):
do, because this is what I need to do.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
And her response was well, you don't know what you
don't know.
And I'm like well, I don't knowbecause you didn't tell me.
And I think there's a couple ofthings going on in this
scenario.
For first, you were dealingwith somebody who is staunch
negativity bias, right?
So the only ability that theyhave to see is to examine what's
wrong, and most people don'trealize how many people have

(09:54):
just a bent for the negativity.
Right, our brains work in aspace where we're always
evaluating what could do better,how things could grow better,
but there needs to be a balance,right?
And so if you're, you'recastigated with someone who's
always like you are terriblefrom a bad place right, it's,
it's.
It will make you question youridentity.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
It would.
And you know, just for thosethat are listening, it wasn't
like oh, we just don't like eachother, it's a personality thing
.
It would be I would come in atseven or eight o'clock in the
morning, cause I was new in mycareer and I thought early
mattered.
I don't think that anymore,sorry, but I would come in at
7.30 or 8.
This boss would come inanywhere between 12.30 to 2.30,
3 pm.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
But it was also the culture.
It was also the culture.
You were new, she wasestablished and her norm was
accepted.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
But barely established, because I did a
little research and found outshe was a new leader, and we'll
get back to that in a minuteabout how you can't be upset
with your leaders because youdon't know what leadership they
were modeled.
So we'll get back to that.
But she would come in 1230, 132, 30 PM.
So as I'm walking my littlehappy self out the door at five,
she would literally say whereare you going?
And I'd say home, to do what?

(10:58):
To go home?
Well, you don't have any kids,ayana, at home.
I said, well, I have a life athome.
What about you?
Because again, this was alittle bit before.
Jesus is in me the way he istoday, and so I'm sure that my
negative response didn't make itbetter because I wasn't the
most passive and I said I'vebeen here all day.
She said, well, I just got herebecause someone has to do the
hard work that needs to be donehere and because I didn't leave

(11:19):
till 10 or 11, that's why I'mcoming in at two.
Why don't you just stay?
I may have stayed once or twiceand not after that.
So then that just madeeverything worse because it
looked like I was subordinate,which was written up in the
review, and this was a timewhere you could write back in
your review and she keptremoving it.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Oh, about you being insubordinate right?

Speaker 2 (11:39):
well, no, the insubordinate part was there,
but I wrote back myjustification and it kept
getting deleted, so I really hadto escalate it up the HR chain
at that time.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
So let me go.
I want to go back to themicroaggression of you don't
have kids, so you can staylonger.
Right and so.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
As though my reproductive organs had
something to do with what time Ileft work.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
I used to tell people all the time don't talk about
my overage at work.
They're none of your business,it's not.
It's not.
I mean, and for those of youwho have you know, have this
experience male, female or likeyour personal business is what
you do after hours is yourbusiness.
It's personal and I don't, andnow that I have kids I can still
say having had kids late inlife.

(12:18):
You don't need to have kids asan excuse to leave work right,
and that should not be in thediscourse.
It's funny how many leaders wehave to coach on like you can't
put the fact that she wants tohave kids as a reason why you
can't put her on the talentmanagement right or you can't
talk about the person's homelife as you're hiring them, and

(12:39):
she would even say stuff likeyou just moved here.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
What do you do outside of work anyway?
And none of your business.
Like I have a life, I may gohome and twiddle my fingers,
it's none of your business.
I've done my 10 hours by thatpoint, because it was more than
eight, so it was just theconstant questioning and what I
noticed is that everyone aroundher made her feel like she was
doing an okay job and that wasprobably more baffling than the
boss relationship itself.

(13:02):
It's like no one notices or noone's going to say anything,
maybe behind closed doors, butto her people were very friendly
, so very cordial.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
I don't know about you, but I honestly think that
in many cases management is afraternity Mm Right, where you
know it's the Dukes of Hazzard,just a good old boy.
Yes, yes, never meaning no harmRight Because meanin' no harm
right, Because, like you, may beslack, but I ain't saying
nothing because I don't want yousaying nothing about my
slackness.
And we allow people.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
We're the culprits of mediocrity because we don't
call it out yes and or fearbecause your title is higher
than mine.
What decision will you make?
You know behind closed doors,because your title is higher
than mine what decision will youmake behind closed doors?

Speaker 1 (13:47):
because your title happened to be a director at
that time.
I don't know who you'reconnected to, because that was
part of the issue too.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
That was the whole issue at our big organization.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
That was part of the whole issue is that because the
appearance of being tethered toone executor of another, those
alliances, I don't want to sayanything bad because I don't
know who she's talking to.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, and I don't know who she's talking to and
how that's going to affect, andwe were in a company with over
100,000 people at that time,early 20s it was like 150 at
that point.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Oh wow, yeah, it was big.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
I remember the one 18 , 120, but I'll go with the 150.
So I think it wasn't just thework, it was the culture, and I
think no one teaches in collegeand in high school about how to
navigate political culture.
No one teaches how to navigatea good boss or a bad boss.
They said oh, here's what youneed to know about HR, Yana.
Here's how you deal with legalissues, ethical issues, payroll
issues, hiring issues.

(14:31):
Not one person sat me down andmy entire family and my entire
circle and said how do youmanage a boss?
So that was its own learning.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Which is why we have the podcast Opportunity.
A company spend billions ofdollars trying to shape leaders
and they will incrementally getbetter.
Like a bad leader will getincrementally less bad.
A decent leader will getincrementally better, but
they're not going to getexponentially better if they

(14:59):
don't have leadership in theirvalue system.
That's number one.
Number two is when you think ofa 40 year career, you're going
to work for at least 10 to 15people.
We already know that peopleleave managers.
They don't leave companies.
At least that's what thestatistics say.
They also say that, um, theaverage tenure in a company is
somewhere to three to four yearsnow based on the Bureau of

(15:21):
Labor Statistics.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
And now, with TikTok society, it looks like less
Right.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
And so, if we know all of that that's happening,
then we have to read the tealeaves.
You're more than likely, if youwere playing Russian roulette,
you're going to run into a badboss, yep.
So why not help people navigatethe inevitability that you're
going to work for somebody thatsucks, and maybe not that person
sucks, but you're going to worktangentially for the finance
guy whose team won't do theirjob because he's awful, or what

(15:45):
have you?
These are interactions that wehave all the time.
Even in small companies, youhave this situation where
everybody's not firing on allcylinders and it affects you and
impacts you, and so how do wemake sure you know?
How to navigate the nonsense.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I think that's good.
You know, we were in a companythat I was on a leadership
development program which helpedme significantly, because we
talked about how to manageconflict, we talked about
emotional intelligence, wetalked about what makes a good
leader, ironically at a timewhen we didn't have the best
leaders.
So it's strange to me that in acompany, this boss was able to
manage and exist simply becausewe did a good job as far as far

(16:25):
as trying to do our best totrain leaders.
This is exactly what got meinto the role that I'm in today,
which is really helping leadersto show up with joy at work and
be the best, their best selves,because, fundamentally, at the
heart of that leader, they werenot happy, in my opinion.
Um, they were.
When a leadership kick is almostlike and I don't mean no harm,
so anybody listening, that's acop.
But sometimes I think some copsjust were bullied and now they

(16:47):
need power so they get a gun anda badge.
I almost felt like this withthis leader that oh, something's
wrong on the inside, have somecompassion.
And then it went to hatred tohave some passion to.
It's okay, you're going to getout of here.
And my next boss was absolutelybetter, but unorganized and
just unorganized but better asfar as kindness.

(17:07):
So the best thing about thisseries with so your boss sucks.
You know what.
You're going to have differentbosses that are good at
different things, but know whoyou are, so you know how to
manage.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
In that, situation and know how to get the best out
of it.
So here's my next question so,having this deplorable person,
this person with deplorableleadership skills because we
also believe that not everyone'sbad we don't, you know, people
are not good or bad.
If you will, you have peoplewith bad skills and how they
show up is bad for you, and it'skind of like some people are

(17:38):
not allergic to penicillin andeveryone else other people are
right Like you're not.
Not everything's a gel for you.
So when you think about that,what did you learn from the
situation?
Because I believe you have totake away something from all of
the crazy.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
What I learned was look to Jesus and read your
Bible so that you are equippedwith something to go in there
too.
I'm so serious I'm not evensaying that in a bad way I
really feel like I got closer toGod in that job because I had
to say you are not acting like.
You were taught Go and seek theword and be kind to other
people, and I needed to show updifferently.
But I also was taught to askbetter questions.

(18:13):
I was taught to say what do youexpect to need what?
If we decided we could meetbefore the project kicked off so
that I'm not getting suchnegative feedback at the end.
And when I started to do that,she did dismantle a little bit
because it was common sense andit was logic, and I started to
get more of what I needed, youknow, from that person.
She even said by the time Ileft oh, you're going to be a

(18:34):
powerful leader because you knowhow to push back.
The biggest thing that I learnedis sometimes people are testing
you just to see how you'regoing to do and in all of my not
that I've had a million, but inthe two or three really bad
boss situations I've had it'shelped me to be a kinder person
and to also recognize.
You don't know what someoneelse is going through.
I don't think I deserved it,but something's wrong on this

(18:58):
inside.
It's not good when it comes outon the outside like that.
So I just learned to be morekind, to get a little closer to
Jesus and to also have afoundation for who I was going
to be, regardless of who theydecided to be.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Listen, I said that in season one and the thing that
comes to mind is the bookcalled the Four Agreements and
the Four Agreements the firstagreement is don't be offended,
don't be offended, don't beoffended.
Take nothing personally, don'tbe offended, take nothing
personally, right?
And the idea is that I don'tknow what's going on with you
and I'm gonna let you have thatand I get to choose how I show
up.
Right, and we've heard fromsome of our other guests about

(19:34):
how you intentionally have tochoose when people are being
obstinate, defiant, rude,disrespectful.
That you choose.
It's a choice on how you showup and it's a predetermined
choice.
It's harder to choose in themoment because you may not have
all your faculty.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Because your amygdala is hijacked and your emotional
intelligence is hijacked.
But I also think it's a goodreminder for us to learn how to
communicate.
And I see and we'll get intothis maybe in another episode I
see most of us don't know how tocommunicate and ask for what we
want, so we're just complainingabout what's happening around
us.
So the other thing that Ilearned is to pause in the

(20:11):
moment and to do some work formyself.
I'm not perfect, I'm not thebest employee, so I just had to
pause and say what could thisreally be about and how do I
still make an impact?
The difference is I cared aboutwork.
I didn't just come for a check.
I cared about developing, Icared about feedback, I cared
about learning.
So I was more frustrated thatthose things I couldn't do as
well because I was so hijackedby the personality.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, Well, it's interesting that you say that,
because I'm thinking about mytime and how I reacted to a lot
of it and I would just gomissing Like I would literally
go missing, I wouldn't answeremail.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
She would have to call my cell phone Like listen,
I have no interest, and then amutual friend of ours would have
to call me.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Like yo, she's looking for him, Like I know.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Give me a minute.
I don't have it, I don't and.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
I didn't have.
I like I have no capacity todeal with you and your
foolishness right now.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
You could go missing, so maybe that's a new thing I
would advise it.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
I would not advise it , I would not advise it, but I
knew what I could take incertain moments.
And oh, by the way, I wasremote, so I was several states
away.
I was on a facility at anotherlocation.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
She was remote too.
She was at home when I was atthe office.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Listen, all I know is that and I look back at it and
laugh because I wouldn't do thatnow.
Is that?
And I, like, I look back at itand laugh because I wouldn't do
that now, right, but you knowtwo three years out of college,
I was like listen.
I have no patience for it, butshow up folks.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
But funny story before we get off of this person
.
This is how things show up.
Maybe five years later or so,it's this amazing job with the
same company openinternationally to move to
Africa.
I'm like this.
The job has my name written onit.
The only thing that wasn't goodis they showed me how big the
dorm rooms were you would beliving in and I was like that
may not work for me.
She's a bit of a prima donna,but I am a big prima donna.
But I called another friend,tiffany.
I said would you like to takethis job?

(21:55):
I think it'll be great.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Shout out to Tiffany Green we love you.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
And I know you're still over in South Africa, but
you went to Djibouti, to EastAfrica, to take this job.
The reason I didn't go isbecause I found out who the
leader was and I said, oh, I'mnot going to be crossing another
continent with no supportsystem.
You didn't know you could gomissing.
That was going to be the leadof the job.
So I'm saying that to say youhave to know yourself, and while

(22:21):
we can't blame other people, wehave to make decisions to
support us.
And where I was in my life waslike I want to learn how to be a
good employee and I want tolearn how to do HR well.
I don't want to spend my daysnavigating the difficulties of
working for someone.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
So, but I would also say, maybe not from that leader.
I've also learned how to dogood HR by working for some
really bad people Like ooh, Iwant to do that.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Oh, that's the best way, because now we can have
this podcast and now I get tocoach people on how not to be
such assholes.
Leap that part out.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
But I do think that because of this, we now get to
navigate and help people to makea choice about how to be an
authentic leader and how tobrand yourself.
And it's a lot of poor leadersout here that don't know.
They're poor because no one hasever given them the accurate
feedback.
But that's another day.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
No, no, no we're going to talk about that next
episode.
So tell me.
So all right, so you firstfirst out of the gate.
You have the bad leader.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Then, like, give me another one Cause I think I only
have two or three y'all promise, but I had to think about this.
And the second one I shouldhave walked out of the interview
and I didn't know it was goingto be such a bad leader.
And it was two leaders mydirect director and then that
person's boss.
But the interview was sodysfunctional, unorganized, that

(23:38):
my direct manager was asking mequestions, shuffling through a
bunch of paper, really nervous,and you could tell she wasn't
prepared.
But I went with it and Ianswered the questions
gracefully.
No joke, natalie.
40 to 50 minutes into theinterview her boss comes in and
says let's start all over.
And so my face at this time Ididn't have a poker face, but I
had more religion and I said saymore about what it means to

(24:00):
start over, because I've beenhere and I've answered.
And that person started askingthe same question.
So then the other person wouldsay oh well, I asked her.
She says well, I didn't hear it.
I want to know.
So now they're having thisdynamic and I am a psychologist,
I'm an HR person, I have abackground in organizational
development, so I'm partiallyfascinated that these two folks
about to join this.

(24:21):
So I leave the interviewthinking there is no way I'm
getting this job or taking it,and I did.
I got it instantly.
I think I got a phone call thatday after.
I gave feedback that this wasvery unorganized and I'm not
sure what's happening.
Are you all OK?
Like I literally think I askedthat question because there was
this very strange dynamic goingon.
It was in health care, so itmade it even more stranger

(24:44):
because I was like where's thehealth and wellness EAP benefits
happening for?

Speaker 1 (24:47):
these, so wait a minute, I'm going to pause, so
if you haven't watched it, wehave an interview with Julia
Cooper as a recruiter and shetells us you got to go back and
listen to it, if you haven't.
She talks about how to getwarning signs in the interview.
So, literally, you justarticulated a bunch of the
things that she said, like acouple of the red flags of like

(25:07):
maybe you shouldn't take thisjob.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Go back and listen to the episode I will listen to
the episode and I should nothave taken it.
I think what made me take itwas it was an opportunity to do
the thing.
I love the technical part, soit's funny.
Before I would have been sayingoh, I'm not worried about
working for a good or bad leader.
This time I said I can work forany leader because I've had
dysfunction.
I know how to manage it but Iwas able to coach full time and

(25:30):
to do the thing that I love.
So I said, oh, I can do thesetwo weird people for a little
bit, because I didn't need tonavigate how to manage a bad
manager.
I needed to do the work that Ilove.
So this is also a reminder forthose of you to know what's
important to you at differenttimes in your career, because I
should have gone out.
Running the office was ugly.
It was this brown green color,it was just a lot of things.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Like that 70s show kind of thing Like that 70s show
what worse.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
And I was like, what year is this Right?
So, anyway, they were havingthis dynamic Really.
Long story short, my directboss was a little bit of a bad
boss because she was cluelessand disorganized.
So we would drive around, likemy first week.
She said meet me at thislocation.
I'm in the car at the locationand she says, oh, I'm running

(26:13):
late.
And then she gets there andsays, oops, we're at the wrong
location.
But we have a meeting thatstarts in like 10 or 15 minutes.
So we're going from likeGaithersburg to DC, which.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
So we're going from like Gaithersburg to DC and
she's asking me to drive.
Geographically it's like ifit's anywhere near rush hour is
an hour drive it is and it'slike 13 miles.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Exactly.
And then we get to the newbuilding and I say, well,
where's the meeting?
Because I'm new, I barely havemy little cell phone and my
computer.
And she says, oh, I don't know.
And we was like well, what doyou mean?
So then we get to the meetingand the person is frazzled.
So I'm not the most low keycalm person, but I also I'm not,
but I'm also not frazzled in abusiness meeting.

(26:50):
So here I am with my type Abubbly personality, trying to be
calm, while my heart is racingbecause we have these doctors
who are looking at us like we'renuts and I can't say like, oh,
it's your fault.
But in my mind I'm thinking didyou not know where we were
going?
So this had happened for acouple of weeks, miss, meetings
were happening.
So I go to the boss's boss andI say I think I'm going back to

(27:15):
my old company and she says why?
And I was like it's just a lot,I'm not trying to throw anybody
under the bus, but something isoff.
And she said close the door.
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm going to get rid of thatperson and I hired you because I
knew you could do the job Shadyand most people would be so
excited by that.
I was like WTF.

(27:36):
Because now I'm thinking backto the interview three, four
weeks prior.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
What in the game of thrones is going on?

Speaker 2 (27:42):
So within a couple of weeks that person was uninvited
from the company, threw off thebus and I was now doing two
roles, but without the propertitle because I had to wait and
go through the proper HR andvetting and this and any other.
So no title or any money, butdoing it.
The funny story in thebackground five or six people
sent me this role for that myboss's job and I said no.

(28:04):
And another three or fourpeople sent it when it became
working for that director and Isaid no because they knew it was
my role.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, but let me go back to this situation because I
think, again, a lot of peoplewould be excited to be brought
into the inner sanctum.
And I think it's funny becauseas HR people, we often get told
things that are like oh, that'sinteresting, right, but you do
have to watch when a leader istalking about another leader to
you.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Because what are they saying about you, that part,
when you're not there?

Speaker 1 (28:32):
That part Seriously.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
I don't trust it.
I didn't feel like, oh, this isgreat, I get the inside.
I feel like, why didn't you vetyour hire?
And I feel like, why didn't youvet your hire?
And now I understand why youwere interviewing with me the
way that you did.
But there was also a little bitof lack of authenticity and
honesty with that.
That didn't feel right and itwas like, oh, congratulations,
you got it.
But I said that role takes meaway from coaching, which is

(28:55):
what I came to do.
I don't want to manage, I don'twant to lead a bunch of other
people in programs.
I want to coach, right.
But I think we have to learn toknow who we are and what we
want so we can speak up forourselves, no matter how good or
bad the boss may or may not be.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
But I want to lean into this too, because I was
reading some articles aboutleadership and one of the things
that's coming to fruition, I'dsay it's the long arc of about
10 years where people just don'twant to be managers anymore.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh, everybody I meet.
Today I'm meeting so manypeople who don't want to manage.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Why is that?
Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 (29:28):
In my coaching practice.
I would say 85 to 90% of peoplesince the year has started has
said to me in some way I don'twant to manage.
And before I tell you why, it'sbecause they're on these hypo
programs and people are sendingthem to coaching.
Hypo meaning high potential.
Thank you, High potentialprograms where the organization
is trying to promote them.
The employees know that, butthey're saying I don't want to

(29:49):
be promoted, but I've beenperforming well, so I'm going to
just do this coaching thing.
But please don't tell them Iwant to be promoted Sidebar.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
One of the things that I hate about talent
management is that I feel likeonce you get to a certain
technical level, there's nothingelse for you to do.
I feel like once you get to acertain technical level, there's
nothing else for you to do,like it's only.
You are only a high potential,to the extent that you will lead
people, and I think it's anextreme misnomer, because a lot
of people never need to leadanyone ever, and that's why you
are great technically gosomewhere, sit down and we will

(30:16):
pay you copious amounts of moneyto have deep, wonderful
understanding for things that wedon't understand ourselves.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
And I think Lockheed started to do that good.
Back to when we worked atLockheed Martin they did good.
They had a technical track andmore of a leadership track and
something in the middle wherethey could pay people to do well
, to be a SME, a subject matterexpert in their field.
I do think that super employeesbecome supervisors that then
become leaders and executives,and the danger in that is if you

(30:44):
don't have a strong program tohelp them be equipped to be an
authentic leader on their ownauthentic leader on their own
and they have to want to bethere.
So you asked me like, why dopeople not want to lead?
I'm hearing the funnieststories and the government it's
like well, once I hit GS 15,that's it.
Um, so you're now going to makeme an SES for just a little bit
more money and now I have tocome into office every single

(31:06):
day for no reason.
And my corporate spaces?
I'm hearing I want a life.
That's the biggest thing I hear.
I want a life.
If I become an executive, thatequals in my culture.
I have no life and I work sevendays a week.
I don't see my family.
I don't want that or the money,so I want to stay here and not
grow.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
And they don't want the headache of having to deal
with their peers that you know.
You go from peer to boss, whichmakes sense.
Interesting tension.
Now you're not invited to thehappy hours, you're not invited
to the Superbowl party.
You used to key, key, key keybut now you're the leader.
No you can't, because you're anagent of the company and I'm not
listen.
I'm not talking bad about beinga leader.

(31:46):
I think people who have agenuine interest in developing
others, a genuine interest andmaking other people succeed,
that is it's noble work, it'sbeautiful work.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
And it's a privilege to lead.
It really is.
It's a privilege to lead, but Ithink leadership always used to
equate to money and to power,and when people sign up for
those two things, you miss theopportunity to manage other
people in a way.
That's so beautiful, that's aprivilege, because we're all
about a few extra dollars andpower.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
So talk to me again about so.
The lady told you to take thisother lady's job and they didn't
give you no more money.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
No, no, um, they didn't.
But I'm going to tell you afunny story before I tell you
how I had to exit stage left.
But the funny story is, I think, that the leader's leader
absolutely hates me in theground that I walk on and her
face was intimidating, herposition was intimidating.
No one ever said anything tootoo bad about her.
People were like, oh, you workfor that person.
Oh yeah, she's different.
And I will say she was anAfrican-American and a minority

(32:45):
leader and the boss I hadoriginally worked for was a
Caucasian woman.
Fast forward, the Caucasianwoman gets fired.
I get the job.
I'm sitting at my desk one dayand I get a text that I don't
hear.
And then I get an email thatsays check your text from the
said boss and that I cannot makethis up.
And maybe I'm being a littledramatic, but it read something

(33:06):
like do you want to go to lunchwith me?
Press one for yes, two formaybe and three for no.
Wait a minute, wait a minute,wait a minute.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
It reminds me of high school Do you like me, do you
like me?
Circle Check one.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
I'm not being dramatic, but that's how I read
it, if it didn't say thatexactly, because it was like
three choices.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
She gave you a poll and a text message, so I thought
, oh my gosh, I must be introuble.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
So then I'm like, and then she says don't write back
an email, write back on text.
So I'm like, what did I do?
But this is maybe six or sevenmonths into the job.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
I don't feel like I'm doing anything amazing.
She's awkward.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
It was, it was, it was weird, so she's awkward.
But we never talked at work, wenever had anything personal and
we never even shared a coffee.
So I not know what to do.
I'm intrigued and curious.
So I say yes, but don't tellanybody else that we're working
for I don't want them to know.
Don't even make a thing, don'tcall me from here.
And we worked in like secureenvironments.
This was not a clear, securegovernment environment, this was

(34:08):
a medical environment.
So I say yes, like, don't evenmeet me in the garage, meet me
at the restaurant Clandestine.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
We couldn't even ride together.
Jason Bourne, Jack Ryan, JackReacher, anybody?

Speaker 2 (34:20):
We had to ride separately.
So then I get there and I feellike I'm on an episode of like
you know, like I don't know, newYork undercover something like
I got the hat on and the scarfand I'm looking and she's got
the glasses and we sit down andit was weird because this person
who I didn't really think likedme she wasn't mean to me, but
it was just a very she was hardto read comes up with oh, it's
just so glad we get to hang outlike this and have lunch.

(34:42):
So now I'm like oh my gosh, I'mnot in trouble.
But what is it?
Oh, I like your manicure.
Okay, thanks.
Well, where do you go?
And I'm like this is a setup.
What is happening?
The point of this story is tosay, when you're not authentic
as a leader, I feel that and I'ma very authentic person.
So after five minutes of BS,nothing.
I really like you and I wantedyou to know that.

(35:02):
I was hoping we can hang outsometime.
I am now totally like get outof here.
So I said well, why are yousometimes cold at work?
And it changed the dynamics.
I wanted to know oh, I'm not.
She proceeds to tell me a storyabout how she does like me.
But she got in trouble andsmacked from leaders in HR
before I got there for showingfavoritism to another black

(35:24):
woman employee.
So now, because she doesn'twant to show favoritism to me,
because I happen to be black andshe happens to be black, she
just doesn't like me at all, soshe doesn't get in trouble for
favoritism.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
So it's so funny that you should say that, because I
remember I did my last two orthree roles, right, all right.
So let me go back when I was atthat same company, right, all
right.
So, for let me, let me go backwhen I was at that same company,
right, so the um, I had what wecalled it the blacklist, and it
was a bunch of youngerprofessionals and it was like I
think the email list was like ahundred 200 people and I would

(35:54):
send out black history flagsevery week and we would have
happy hours it was like thisunderground list.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
I remember who created it.
You know who you are, but Iwon't say your name, I know
exactly, and so he gave it to me.
Oh no, this was a she.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Okay, well then we have to talk about that because
I got it from somebody else.
I got it Cedric Waters, you oweme, so, um, he gave it to me.
He was like you want this, youdo need to know it.
I'm like I don't want this, butit was fun for the year or two
that I was in Jersey and wewould get together and like we
had a real sense of community.
And it's interesting to me andevery company that I've went to

(36:27):
there's a desire to have thatcommunity and shout out to
companies who still have theiremployee resource groups and
things like that.
But it is always the optics.
Everyone else can get togetherand it not be a problem, but
when we get together we must bestaging a deal and when she says
we.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
What she's talking about is African-Americans and
Blacks, and I want to bespecific to that because I think
people don't know it, and thatwas that whole concept of the
books.
Why are all the Blacks sittingat one table or something like
that?
I may have the book messed upand it was.
Nobody notices until too manyof one group, whether it's Black
, asian, lgbt, younger or older.
No one notices until they'reall together.

(37:04):
But for us it was even moreprominent.
So I have this now, my directleader saying to me I really
like you, but I have no signsthat she's interested in if I
live or die.
Now asking me about my manicureand trying to be almost
friendly and I'm scared, likewhat do you want?
So we end the lunch.
She says we should do it again.
We never did, but we got alongokay at work.

(37:29):
The story was I got in troublebecause someone said I showed
favoritism to another person whowas African-American.
But then the story got so deep,natalie, that she says and she
wasn't even all the wayAfrican-American, she was mixed
and she was from another country.
And for that here's where myheart and my compassion comes in
.
You've been burnt for somethingand for that, here's where my
heart and my compassion comes in.
You've been burnt for somethingand now that has created you to
be the leader you are, which isbecause of one situation when
someone said you showed person afavoritism.

(37:50):
Now, anybody that looksremotely like them, I'm going to
just treat them like crap.
Sorry, that doesn't fix it.
That doesn't solve the problem,but in her mind that's how
sometimes we work.
I've been reprimanded.
Let me go to the extreme, butthat affects your bottom line,
which are the people Listen?

Speaker 1 (38:07):
and it's unfortunate that she to get to a place where
she could resolve that.
Okay, y'all, y'all havefavoritism all over the place,
right?
I can't remember the name ofthe entrepreneur, but she's very
well known and I can see herface, but I can't remember her
name.
And she talks about how, likeshe was at a firm and they were
all talking about, well, herwhole team is black and she's

(38:29):
like, yeah, but your whole teamis white.
Oh, I know exactly who you'retalking to the IT firm Um but
the whole point is that you knowagain, when we do something,
it's very prominent versus whenit's done elsewhere, it's
considered favoritism orcronyism or what have you.
And I think what, what I wouldhave everyone take away from
this black, white or indifferent.

(38:50):
Leave people alone, like at theend of the day, everyone's
trying to do the best that theycan and if you don't have a
sense of community at work, itleads to alienation and
disengagement.
Every engagement survey that Iknow that's worth a salt will
ask do you have a friend at work?
Why?
Because it's the leadingindicator to your at-work
happiness.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
And I think Gardner did studies about that almost
every year.
It is If you have a person youtrust or a friend at work,
you're going to show up withmore joy and more satisfaction.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Listen at every job I had a work husband I had a work
sister.
I work somebody.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
I'm telling the reverend now.
Oh no listen.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
My husband knows all of my work husbands Good, good.
And they all get along.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah, it's important, but you those relationships.
But another point is you can'tmake the relationships out of
nothing.
So if you want a genuinerelationship, regardless of who
the person is, be genuine.
And the part that made this aharder boss not the worst part,
but a harder boss was there wasjust so much that was not
genuinely authentic and it was ahard barrier to read.

(39:49):
And I question their humannessto say do they have feelings?

Speaker 1 (39:52):
But here's what I've found too is that for a lot of
leaders who look like me or you,some of us end up having to
train in parts of ourselves tobe accepted in the circles, and
so there's a loss ofauthenticity and perhaps
identity for us to stay where weare.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
It's absolutely a bit of sacrifice down to the braids
that are in my hair.
When I have had people at worksay, oh, you look so much softer
when your hair is blow dried, Isaid let it rain outside.
You're going to see AngelaDavis.
So the reason I wear braids isit's easy and I love it and I
can go through the storms of theweather.
But someone said you looksofter because of that.
So for years I didn't wearsewing weaves, I didn't wear

(40:33):
braids, I didn't wear anythingbut that.
But it took a toll and damagedmy hair.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
Listen, I will say this.
I will um, I don't.
I.
It wasn't until I left my firstcorporate job that I started
wearing my hair.
I actually cut all my hair offas a as a as a treatise of like,
I am free from the situation.
I wore my natural.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
I don't natural curls Come on.
Crown act.
Before it was a crown act.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Listen, I didn't even know that I had like natural
curls, neither did I.
We'll put up a shot.
Hopefully William will put up ashot of me in my fro.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
I didn't know I had natural curls.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
I had pressed my hair for so long and then I finally
went natural and then when Ileft, I cut all my hair off and
it was like liberating becausewe had to be but we had to to be

(41:29):
acceptable in the space and Ithink I want people to know,
especially if you're youngerthan us we're not going-.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
Let me take that back .
We had a choice and I alwayschose to do what I needed to do.
I like money we had a choice.
But I come from a family thathad no one in corporate America,
that had never made those typesof salaries at a young age
making six figures in twentiesor all that.
I never had that.
So I had a choice.
But I chose that so that Icould get ahead sometime.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
But I think it's.
I think it's important too andI like the fact that you said we
had a choice.
We did have a choice, but Ithere is a level of because
we're not in the majority, themajority space, right, right,
the name's not our name's, noton the door, but have you?
there is a chameleon thing wehave to do at times to be in in
the spaces, and I don't I don'tbesmirch that Like.

(42:14):
My mother is from Danville,Virginia, which is about two
hours, three hours away, Right,and she grew up in the South,
but she made it a point to notspeak.
Southern.
She taught us not to have aSouthern drawl.
I grew up in Jersey.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
We would talk not to have a ghetto drawl growing up
in that part.
She was like you're not goingto sound like XYZ, Right?

Speaker 1 (42:34):
I wasn't allowed to say contractions until I was in
college.
I couldn't say ain't.
So when I got to college, whatI got was oh, you talk like a
work girl.
Yep, I do.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Oh, I was told the same too, but I probably won't
get a job though.
But I went to Catholic schooland we were taught you don't.
And the same company, thesecond company I also had bought
in a team one day that wasbrown, all brown, and a few
people said too many of them hadan accent or slang, and I knew
exactly what they mean.
It was a Baltimore slang and aDC slang, and a.
Louisiana slang.
And it wasn't.

(43:05):
And they said, but Ayanna, yousound different.
And I said, well, I'm notmaking my voice sound like this.
This is how I sound, but to seefive women of color running a
program was also a threat.
They approved it, they vettedit, but it was still a few of
the people that worked theresaid, oh, but they had an
interesting way that they spoke.
So not only is it our identity,it's how we talk, it's how we

(43:26):
look, it's how we choose to act.
Sometimes that makes us feellike this is the only way we're
going to be here.
Now, 20 plus years later, I seethat dynamic shifting hugely
from where we were 20 plus yearsago.
I think that's a sign of thetimes, but I also think it's a
sign of maturity, where, for me,it's okay to walk away from
something that I wouldn't havewalked away from before, because

(43:46):
I didn't know that there was abigger world to work out here.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah, and I appreciate how the barriers are
starting to break down.
I have a really good littlesister.
Shout out to Sinead Urquard.
She's a recruiter cousin so youguys should check her out on
LinkedIn.
But she has her brand to thepoint that she's a recruiter and
she's like look, I'm fromCamden, New Jersey, and I'm not
going to change how I talk andI'm good at my job and she's

(44:12):
great.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
And she used to tell me like now you talk white, I do
, because that's what I wasneeded at the time, and so I'm
excited about the fact that it'sproper, and that's what I
didn't understand, becausegrowing up in our house.
It was just even in our family.
It was just proper Okay.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
But it was.
But it was.
It was white because the tone,the tonation, like the timbre,
the nasalness right.
Like I can speak proper English.
I didn't break contractions andall that stuff, right.
But and then I went to an HBCU,which was an interesting
experience, right, because I wasthe black white girl, right,
and I think we Shout out toBennett, shout out to Bennett

(44:47):
College, good old Bennett, and Ithink all of those things
matter, as you're in these workenvironments.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
It all matters and I know, though, we started talking
about bosses it all matters andI think the takeaway for me is
we can all lead and we can allbe a boss or a manager in any
way, and so, even if you don'tmanage direct reports, model who
you are as a leader, as aperson, and that was my takeaway
.
Through good, bad orindifferent bosses, I get to
lead even without direct reports.

(45:17):
How do I want to show up andmodel the way?
And I'm not always perfect, andneither are they, but it's just
that reminder that you shoulddemonstrate the characteristics
you want someone to give you.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Absolutely.
So, all right.
So we're going to do a letter,we're going to do one of the
letters.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
It's a hot topic y'all, so we're going to do a
letter and do one of the letters.

Speaker 1 (45:42):
It's a hot topic, y'all.
So this is from Michelle.
She's an HR manager fromAtlanta.
Dear, your boss sucks.
I was hired as an HR manager tohelp lead our company's DEI
initiatives.
It was something like thecompany said that it was a
serious about creating inclusiveleadership programs,
diversifying hiring andfostering a workplace where
everyone felt valued.
But lately leadership has beenquietly dismantling everything.
The budget for our mentoringprogram is gone.

(46:04):
The DEI committee wasrestructured, which really means
dissolved.
When I tried to bring it up inthe equity up equity in a recent
meeting, I was told we shouldfocus on unity, not division.
I feel like I was hired tocheck a box and now they want me
to make all the initiativesdisappear without making noise.
I understand the businesspriority shift, but I feel like

(46:25):
I'm betraying employees whotrusted me to create real change
.
If I fight too hard, I'm afraidthat I'll be pushed out, but if
I don't fight at all, I will becomplicit in this black slide.
What do I do?
Frustrated diversity indisguise, michelle what does she
do?

Speaker 2 (46:43):
I'm going to speak from an HR perspective, but with
my coach hat on, because Ican't.
I can't separate the two.
Nat, I'm an executive coach.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
Michelle, the intersectionality of everything.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
You know, I think the first thing you should do is
get honest with yourself aboutwhat it is that you want at this
roadblock.
What is it that you want andwhat is your highest value?
We only need one value.
What is the value that's beingstepped on that you feel
disrespected by, that you feeldisregarded?
What might you make up hervalue to be that she's feeling

(47:16):
compromised in?
We can make up anyone, but whatone?

Speaker 1 (47:21):
I think it's honesty right.
She was hired to do a thing andnow she can't do the thing she
was hired to do.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
It's honesty, and I think sometimes people get lost
in the feelings and emotions.
That is something else, maybeeven about the DEI, or maybe
about fairness or justice.
But I think to start withhonesty is, if you're being
honest with yourself, what isthe right question that you need
to ask the company and what'sthe right choice you need to
make to be honest with yourselfin an environment where people
weren't all the way honest withyou.
And then you know.

(47:47):
I would say pick your fight,sis, pick the fight of you know,
back in the day, shout outs toSean if you're watching this.
Sean Jenkins was an amazing HRleader I had who used to say
pick battles big enough tomatter but small enough to win.
And so if this is big enough tomatter, fight.
If it's not, let it go and gofind another honest situation

(48:10):
where you can do the best ofyourself.
But be honest with yourself andspeak up.
Now there's more behind it,like your financial situation,
all the things.
I'm not here and I've had a lotof jobs.
Also, my advice is to quit, tolet it go.
Let it go, but in the midst ofnot letting it go, I say speak
up in your right time and whenit feels comfortable enough for

(48:33):
you that you're not in any typeof a financial insecurity place,
but to ask them what ispossible for you to do and to
speak on the honesty part of itand to say, well, what can we do
instead?
But you know, my advice isalways a little bit street
gangster, which is find anotherjob that wants you sit at tables
, that invite you, and thingsmay have shifted, um, but I

(48:57):
think that you could ask them tobe honest about it and maybe
deliver the message themselves,so it doesn't come from you.
Yeah, and we have to do thatall the time in HR.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
So so I would I like what you said, and I want to
kind of put things inperspective.
The headlines are bleeding withthis topic right Right now, yes
, and it could easily feel likethe world is crashing down, but
the other thing that I'll shareis that there's a there was a
report done by I think it wasNew York times.
It said 97% of companies arebacking down on their

(49:28):
initiatives, and so I thinkwhat's a couple of things that I
would challenge you on is, onceyou do all the dismantling,
what's the thing that they wantyou to do?
Like, if you're skilled in thiswork, if this is your life's
work, if this is your passion,where, what corner?

Speaker 2 (49:43):
are they going to sit you in what's?

Speaker 1 (49:45):
next, right, you've got to think about the second
and third box implications towhat's happening and really make
them have a real hardconversation about where does my
future lie in this organization.
If you can settle on thatanswer and it's something that
excites you, that's a newopportunity.
Then I'd say you know what?
Ride that out and see whathappens, especially if you still
feel as if you're somehowvalued as an individual, even if

(50:06):
the work is being responsiblein a reactive way.
But the second thing I'll sayis this I honestly think you
know I like to be a bit of afuturist, right?

Speaker 2 (50:16):
So you don't quit as quick as me.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I don't because I got mouths tofeed right, but I will say this
I believe that we are all aboutto be in a season where we're
going to have to be HarrietTubman right, when we're going
to have to have this undergroundrailroad of network where we

(50:40):
may not see the quiet things outloud, but we'll say it to each
other and figure out how to movein silence, because, as much as
we want people to accept what'shappening, part of the
challenge with the work is thatwe are really.
You know, my grandfather was apissing in the wind in some
cases, because some people don'twant this knowledge, and so do
you want to be the HarrietTubman in the organization that

(51:01):
is helping people maneuver andtranslate what's happening in
the organization, because Ipromise you, my career has
benefited from a lot ofunderground railroad
conversations, and it's also wedo have to change the language
too, because I can still modelgood behavior of inclusivity.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
I can model good behavior of being thoughtful
about differences without itbeing called an employee
resource group or without itbeing called something.
So I think your question isvalid to say so what's next for
me in my career?
Because we had this thing andno longer exists.
What would you like me to donow?
But see, I'm a little risky andyou know this A little, a lot.

(51:38):
But my risk comes in askingit's a book called Change your
Questions, change your Life.
Marilyn Adams is amazingAmerican University shout outs.
As a graduate of AU, americanChange the question you have to
them what is prompting this?
What does fear have to do withit?
What would you do if youweren't afraid?
Because I can settle for doingwhatever you ask me to do.

(51:59):
If I understand the reasoning,I think Michelle may be caught
in the I don't even know what Ican or I should ask.
I'm making that up.
So ask the right questions,because you may be pleasantly
shocked that there's more to itthan we know, and then, from
that, make your decision.
See, if I ask the questions andit's just oh, this just feels
right today because of the windand the way things have been
going with the current state ofthe world, that's different than

(52:20):
we have to take a timeoutbecause I got a strategy and
this is what it looks like.
That's going to be different.
So I'm asking you to becourageous and be bold, michelle
, and ask the right questions sothat you can make the right
decision, leaning on that valueof honesty.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
I would say ask the right questions of the right
people.
So my longtime mentor his nameis Ken Diskin.
Shout out to Ken Diskin.
He is my fairy godfather of mycareer and one of the things he
would tell me is don't ever talkto people about your situation
that can't help you change it.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Well, nick, spain shout outs to you too, because
Nick also told us that, like youtalking to the wrong audience,
if they can't help you, what'sthe purpose?
Yeah, so who's going to helpchange that situation for?

Speaker 1 (53:02):
Michelle, michelle, listen, we want to hear more.
Good luck, let us know how itworks out.
But at the end of the day, Ithink you know in your heart
what you need to do and justfollow that.
But Ayanna would tell you toquit Any last closing thoughts.
When it comes to your career,your, you know your journey as

(53:25):
this, you know HR coaching guru,this OD beautifulness.
What would you say?
What would you say to thepeople that are like struggling
in their bad bossery?

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Two things again, because I can go from you know,
gangster to Christian, to thatown self.
Be true.
And you know, this lastquestion made me think about
that.
Know who you are, because myadvice works for me and my
spirit.
Your advice can work for youand your spirit, but you have to
get centered in knowing who youare to make the right decisions
.
Too often we just take theadvice from someone else and do
what they say.
Get quiet with yourself andthink about what those values

(53:58):
are.
And the last thing I will say isI heard a business coach say
this recently.
Her name is Danielle and she'sa business coach in this group
around Black women who invest.
She says we have not because weask not.
And that's a very Christian,biblical thing and a model I
live by.
Ask your leaders for what youwant and need and give them an

(54:20):
opportunity to do it, because atthe end of the day they're just
humans struggling, like usgoing to the bathroom, like us
going through their own life'sjourney.
That may or may not have beentrained well, but first it's up
to us to ask, and I think inthis generation we're not taught
well how to ask or how to pushback, but we have to ask and
give people genuine time tofigure out if they can meet your

(54:41):
request.
And if they can't, then y'allquit.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Fair, fair, but I will go back to this Merrilee
Adams thing.
So Dr Merrilee Adams is apioneer in her own right.
I would strongly suggest, ifyou have problems with questions
, go grab this book.
It's called Change yourQuestions to Change your Life
and the premise is this when youask questions out of curiosity
and looking to learn, it'sdifferent than judging the
situation, judging the person,judging yourself, because it

(55:08):
leads you to a dead end.
If you ask why did this happento me?
Why did they do that?
Why am I stupid?
Why am I all these other things?
She says you're going into themud or the pit.
It's called the judgment.
The pit of judgment is what shecalls it.
And she says there's a learnermindset.
And those learner questions arecurious questions Like now tell
me how we got here.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
What did you learn from working for that bad?

Speaker 1 (55:27):
boss.
That's right, that's why we caninterview this way, and so we
love that book, because itreally is a seminal work on how
to ask good questions, to getanswers, to inform your next
step, because if you stay in aplace of victimization, then you
take away your power and youlose your autonomy and you lose
your ability to think clearlyand your mental health too.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
And in the book.
Just if you don't read thewhole book, go to Google and put
in the choice map.
It's a PDF and the choice mapsums up the book about the
learner you know road versus thejudges road.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
We'll put it in the show notes.
We'll put it in the show.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
Yep, yep, and that's why I just think that it's
important to always be at choice, because we chose to change our
identity, our hair, our voice,our whatever to be there Cause
we like money.
Cause we like money, but it'salso I'll have to find the exact
.
Keenan and Peele did thislittle like thing about how
sometimes we I can't think ofthe exact word, but we kind of
shift who we are around theaudiences that we're with

(56:19):
because they're comfortable.
So be at choice, but really tryto learn as much as you can by
being in learners mindset.
We all judge, but just don'tstay there too long Like I want
you to judge if your car is notworking, the brakes aren't
working.
Don't be like what can I learn?
No, try to stop, becausethere's a time and place to
judge and say, okay, I need tostop, and then there's a time to
say what can I learn?
And so just take care ofyourself, both the employees,

(56:43):
and shout out to the bossesdoing the best y'all can.
That might not even knowsomebody thinks you're a bad
boss.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Well, listen, ayana, this has been so much fun.
Oh my gosh, I really, reallyappreciate you coming.
So that's a wrap on our episode.
Listen, I've thoroughly enjoyedthis conversation.
We talked about authenticity,we talked about learning from
your bad boss situation and wetalked about choice.
Go back and listen, cause I'msure I'm going to go back and
listen as well and share it withsomebody, because I'm sure you

(57:13):
know someone in your life thatneeds to hear this conversation.
Remember, like, subscribe,share and follow, and don't let
your boss suck the life out ofyou.
Bye.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.

(57:36):
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