March 20, 2025 • 54 mins
What happens when your manager treats their job like Gollum from Lord of the Rings – clutching tasks while muttering "my precious"? Sarah Vaughn Benjamin knows exactly how this feels.
During her seven-year journey from academia to corporate HR, Sarah encountered the classic territorial boss who demanded help yet refused to delegate meaningful work. "I was just stuck," she recalls, describing how her manager claimed ownership with the chilling words: "It's my department." This stark example of leadership insecurity left Sarah feeling underutilized despite being repeatedly told she was "a rock star" – a phrase that now makes her cringe.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as Sarah reveals how COVID-19 became her unexpected catalyst for change. Furloughed and uncertain, she leveraged social media to connect with others who had pivoted careers, ultimately transforming her student life experience into a corporate learning and development role. Her resourcefulness demonstrates how career transitions often require both careful skill mapping and the courage to leap into uncertainty.
Now an HR Business Partner, Sarah shares a profound insight from her therapist: "You can't work in HR and be a sponge. You have to be a mirror." This powerful metaphor captures the delicate balance HR professionals must strike – reflecting situations back to managers rather than absorbing all the emotional weight themselves. When managers avoid difficult conversations or create unnecessary barriers for employees, HR must help navigate these challenges while maintaining organizational integrity.
The episode concludes with practical advice for listeners dealing with career-blocking bosses or suspected "quiet firing." Sarah and host Natalie emphasize the importance of documenting patterns, asking direct questions, and paying attention to how managers respond. Whether you're facing a territorial boss or fighting for professional growth, this conversation provides the strategies you need to maintain your dignity while advancing your career path. Remember: disappointment often stems from misaligned expectations – but you have the power to clarify yours.
Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
Share your bad boss story on our website.
Learn more or Book Natalie.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (00:00):
Because I think a lot of disappointment
comes when you have your own setof expectations that are not
the same as somebody else.
You can't work in HR and be asponge.
You have to be a mirror.
Natalie Parker (00:13):
Welcome to this episode of so your Boss Sucks.
Now what?
I'm Natalie Renee Parker, yourhost, and I'm excited about
today's conversation.
Have you ever met somebody whowas just like super nice and you
wanted the best for them, andthey're really good at their job
?
Well, that basically describesmy next guest and my friend,
sarah Vaughn Benjamin.
(00:33):
She is seven years into an HRcareer in varying different
organizations.
She's going to talk to us todayabout her experience as the
business partner in HR andhaving pivoted from an
interesting career as shestarted and how she got to where
she is, along with how she'shad to deal with some of
(00:54):
managers.
As I played the role of HRleader in several different
organizations, you'd besurprised how many times I've
had to work alongside a bossthat sucks, trying to mitigate
their suckiness on theiremployee base.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about that.
Also, we're going to read yourstories today, so stay tuned.
We've got a lot to talk abouton today's.
All right, so welcome my guest,sarah vaughn benjamin.
(01:31):
Her linkedin bio and everythingwill be on the website
yourbosssexcom, but let'swelcome sarah good to have you.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (01:39):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here I'mexcited, have you?
Natalie Parker (01:42):
It's been so long and I almost forgot your
married name.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (01:46):
I am, yes , yeah, sarah Vaughn Benjamin.
It's a threefold name now.
Natalie Parker (01:51):
Sidebar.
So we were talking about it andwe've decided that if men had
to change their names after theyget married, they weren't
getting into marriage, theywouldn't change their names at
all.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (01:58):
No, it's too much.
Natalie Parker (02:00):
It's a lot Too many logistics Anyway.
So I'm excited to have you.
You and I talked and we werepreparing for our conversation
today.
We were talking about what ittakes to pivot in your career.
So start talking.
Yeah, I've said it before, I'man Xer or Cusper, because I'm
kind of right on the mix, but asa millennial right.
(02:22):
You coming into the workforceyour first job, you landed the
job in academia, yes, and youhad a very interesting
experience there.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (02:33):
Yes, I did yes.
So I actually went to graduateschool to get my degree in
higher education.
So I was studying how to workwith students in their student
life area of their collegecareer.
So after I graduated, I got ajob in student life where I was
(02:55):
working with students as theyprepared for their leadership
skills, learning how to be aleader, different types of
leaders and how they could be apeer leader, which would prepare
them for their future careers.
I was in that field for abouttwo and a half years before I
switched to corporate life,where I've been the past five or
so years.
Natalie Parker (03:16):
But let's talk to me about your first leader
coming out of college.
What was that like, especiallyin the academic space?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (03:26):
Yes, so that was an interesting
experience.
I had never had a full-time jobbefore.
Of course, that was my firstfull-time job and I didn't
really know what to expect whenit came to leadership.
I didn't really know thedynamics of how things were
supposed to play, and I wasstill very junior in the fact
(03:49):
that I didn't know how to speakup for myself and how to best
interact in a professionalenvironment.
And so I came in and I had aleader who had many, many years
of experience in this field,many years of experience in this
department.
That's exciting, yes, veryexciting.
Lots of knowledge, lots ofbackground and insight.
(04:12):
My brain works a lot very wellon insight and information
gathering, and so it was reallycool to be able to have all of
that historical perspective ofhow things have changed and
grown.
I pretty quickly realized thatit was going to be difficult to
(04:36):
delegate some of those years ofexperience and some of those
tasks and ownership to a secondperson.
I was the first person in myrole in this department.
There had never been this rolebefore, and so there wasn't a
lot of clarity around divisionof duties, how things would be
delegated, how things would beowned, not having a lot of
(05:09):
autonomy in what I was doingbecause I was leading this group
of students and I had a leaderwho was used to leading these
groups of students for many,many years, and so it was really
difficult to have that sense ofautonomy when the person that
had been in this role mysupervisor was so Territorial
yes, territorial, very close toit and didn't really seem to
(05:31):
want to let go.
Natalie Parker (05:33):
How did that-?
I'm always fascinated, right?
So I would imagine I'm going tojust make up the-.
This is my story.
This is not what happened, butmy story that I'm telling myself
is.
Here you have someone whoreally has been doing the job
forever, has probably beenbegging for help Like I need a
person, and then along comes theperson and magically you can't
(05:56):
pry the work out of their hands.
How frustrating was that.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (06:00):
It was really frustrating.
I really value autonomy andbeing able to do my own work and
being able to for lack of abetter term prove my worth that
way.
I really enjoy being able tofigure things out myself and
learn by doing and gatheringthat information, and so it was
(06:21):
difficult to forge my own pathwhen I wasn't given full
ownership of what I thought Iwas supposed to be given
ownership of.
Natalie Parker (06:31):
So what did you do?
Did you confront her?
Did you talk to her?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (06:35):
So there were times when I would ask for
work.
There were times when I wouldindicate oh, I have some
bandwidth, I have some time,what can I help with?
I tried that softer approach.
There was one time where wewere both involved in a pilot
program for the Grander StudentLife Arena and both of us were
(07:00):
part of it, and so in myone-on-one one day, I asked if
there was a possibility, if Icould focus on one area of our
department and if she would beokay with focusing on a separate
area of the department so thatI could have my own experience
in this pilot program.
And the response that I was metwith was very defensive.
(07:23):
What did she say?
And the response that I was metwith was very defensive.
What did she say?
She said that it was herdepartment and that if she
wanted to be able to participatein this program for her whole
department, that it was herright Because it was hers and
she wanted to be able to overseeall of that.
Natalie Parker (07:43):
She sounds like Gollum from Lord of the Rings,
my precious lady A little bitand I was really taken aback.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (07:52):
I was really trying to be brave.
Like I mentioned earlier, I wasstill very junior and not being
able to speak up for myself,and so I talked myself up a lot
for this, to really try to standup for myself and kind of set
those boundaries, and I wasn'treally met with a positive
response, and so I was reallydiscouraged after that and it
(08:13):
ended up working out to where Ikind of was able to get some of
those boundaries that I hadasked for, but the initial
response was not great.
Natalie Parker (08:23):
So what would you tell someone in that
situation?
Because I think territorialismis another example of leadership
or individual insecurity.
When a leader is notcomfortable, either they don't
know how to tell you what to do,they don't know how to teach
you what to do, or they'rescared that if you do it, that
(08:44):
they will be seen as eitherincompetent because it took them
so long to learn it, or theywill be seen as not doing work,
because you're now doing thework a lot.
And then there's there's thepeople who they've been doing it
for so long.
They wouldn't know what to doif they didn't have the work
they're doing.
So what would you tell yourself?
(09:05):
Like now, like someone that'sin that situation?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (09:10):
Yeah.
So I would tell somebody thatit's okay to speak up for
yourself, it's okay to setboundaries, and you're not
always going to be able tocontrol the outcome, but it's
important to look out foryourself and understand that you
(09:30):
have your own career path.
You have your own needs, wants,desires when it comes to your
growth and development in yourcareer.
And if you don't ask, theanswer will always be no.
Natalie Parker (09:43):
That's fair right.
My grandmother would say closemouth, don't get the answer will
always be.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (09:47):
No, that's fair right.
Natalie Parker (09:48):
My grandmother would say close mouth, don't get
fed right.
So the other thing that I'vedone and I shared this in last
season, if you want to go back,I think it's episode four where
I talk.
No, it's episode two, where Italk about a boss who didn't
want me because he thought I waslike somebody's relative, and I
ended up finding my way andmaking myself valuable to the
organization.
I think it's important for usto recognize that you're going
(10:11):
to get a job and you're going toget paid one way or another,
but it's up to you to try tofigure out how to add value, and
one way we do that is byfiguring out what's important to
the other person.
One way we do that is byfiguring out what's important to
the other person, right, whattheir interests are, trying to
soften them up.
And it seems counterproductiveto beg for work, right, and I'm
(10:33):
sure there's some of you like Iain't begging for no work.
They going to pay me and I'lljust sit there.
But if you do that, the chancesare that more likely than not
that leader's going to be likewell, I don't know what she does
, so we should fire her.
Right?
It's an interesting dichotomy.
So how did it end up?
What ended up happening?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (10:51):
We were able to have our separate
focuses in that program.
I was able to focus on thestudent leadership and my
manager was able to focus on adifferent area of the department
.
But that didn't change that Ifelt uncomfy about it.
You know, I knew that I hadtried to set up my boundaries
and that we had had kind of adifficult conversation, and so
(11:17):
anytime that we werespecifically working on this
project I was worried aboutstepping on toes, because that
was the initial response that Ihad gotten.
And so I in a way got what Iwanted, but not without some
anxiety behind the curtain whichtakes people don't understand.
Natalie Parker (11:38):
When you have anxiety at work, it takes away
from your ability to performbecause you're still driving
energy to a part of you tomuster up the strength to be
courageous enough to do the workin the first place, which is
super exhausting.
Yeah, so you left academia andyou pivoted Talk to me about the
grand pivot from like dealingwith college students to now
(12:01):
dealing with grown adult babies.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (12:03):
Yes, so I often say that HR is, or the
role that I was in in academiawas like HR for 18-year-olds.
I was working a lot withconflict management and
leadership styles and eventerritorialism amongst the
students and understanding howwe can navigate those barriers.
(12:23):
The big pivot for me fromacademia to corporate America
came when COVID hit.
I think that was probably ahuge pivot for a lot of people
because it gave folks a time tothink about their priorities and
their goals and what they weredoing with their life, and I was
furloughed at the beginning ofCOVID.
Natalie Parker (12:45):
What is furloughed for people who don't
know.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (12:47):
So a furlough is a temporary layoff,
for lack of a better term.
It is when you are notpermitted to work, you're not
paid during a defined period oftime until you're called back to
work.
Natalie Parker (13:01):
It's like that episode in Friends where they're
like we were on a break rightLike we're not together, but you
can't go anywhere else, youcan't go anywhere else.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (13:10):
You're still employed, but you're not
making any of our money, so justsit tight until we decide we're
ready for you to come back.
Luckily, I was told kind ofthat time frame at the beginning
.
You know you're going to befurloughed for eight weeks, so I
had two months to kind of sitand figure out what I was doing
with myself during a time wherethere wasn't a lot of
(13:32):
flexibility in terms of groupactivities and getting out in
public and doing things becauseof, you know, the health status
of our country.
So that was when I reallystarted to think about okay,
this doesn't feel very stablebecause my role was affected by
the economic status of thecountry, et cetera.
(13:56):
And so I started to think aboutwhat my other options were.
You know, do I pivot to acorporate world?
Do I look for another role inacademia at a different
institution?
And my dad had kind of been youknow in my ear a little bit
about I really think you wouldbe good at HR, I really think
(14:18):
that you should do this.
You know he would ask mequestions about what I thought
about his teams and how heshould address things, and so I
started looking, I startedthinking about what I thought
about his teams and how heshould address things, and so I
started looking.
I started thinking about where Icould use my skills and I
really relied on a Facebookgroup that was focused on folks
(14:38):
who had been in student life andhad pivoted elsewhere.
And I was really lucky to catchthat Facebook group at a time
when they were hosting webinarsfocused on various industries so
HR, education, tech, insurance,whatever it might be and so I
(14:59):
listened in on an HR webinar andlearned about how I could use
my skills and market myself topivot.
So I was taking a look at myskills, at the work that I had
done, a lot of curriculumdevelopment, training and I
noticed that learning anddevelopment might be a good
pivot for me, and so I startedlooking for learning and
(15:21):
development roles and I was ableto find one around.
You know, about a year intoCOVID, which I felt really,
really lucky to be able to makethat switch.
Natalie Parker (15:32):
So you go.
I think one of the things thatI love about the story is that
you knew you needed to changeright and you know, not having a
job for eight weeks, althoughyou had a job, is a good impetus
for changing right.
But I love how resourceful youare at finding a group of people
who had done what you wanted todo in terms of pivoting.
(15:56):
A lot of times we will findourselves in positions and we're
stuck right, like I don't wantto be here but I have no idea
what's next, and we're stuckright Like I don't want to be
here but I have no idea what'snext, and I appreciate your
resourcefulness and going tojust at least look and see okay,
what else is everyone elsedoing.
And I'd say that to you ifyou're in a sucky situation
where your boss sucks and youknow it's time to go, if you
(16:17):
need to pull the rip cord, havean escape plan like what other
opportunities that aretangential to your experience
that would allow you to make apivot.
Sometimes that comes withlateral move.
That means you're not gettingmore money.
Sometimes you may need to takea cut off top.
That means you're going to takea little less money, but it
gets you out of your currentmisery and into a new
(16:40):
opportunity.
So talk to me about this moveto corporate.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (16:44):
Yeah.
So I was really nervous.
I didn't know similar to youknow, starting my career I
didn't know what to expect.
I you know you hear all therumors or tropes about what
corporate America is and isn't.
And I also knew that I wasreally excited to start
something new where I felt thatI could use my skills.
(17:07):
So I started out in learningand development and I was
onboarding employees, I wasdelivering soft skills training
to new hires as well and I had alot of exposure across the
business.
And I had a lot of exposureacross the business.
You know, we were a prettysmall organization and I was
(17:32):
really lucky to get in withvarious departments and various
levels of folks across the wholegroup.
Natalie Parker (17:34):
So, as you go through corporate America, how
confident were you about beingthere?
Like what did it feel like?
Were you excited?
Did you feel like you belonged?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (17:43):
You were like oh, my God, I don't know
what I'm doing.
It was a steep learning curveat first.
You know, I think anytime youjoin a new organization there's
going to be acronyms and lingothat you're not familiar with.
So it was not only the lingo ofthis company, but also just
corporate lingo in general.
I remember, towards thebeginning of my role there, it
(18:06):
was either my manager or acoworker using the word
enterprise.
I said I don't know whatenterprise means.
Natalie Parker (18:12):
What does that mean?
That doesn't mean Star Trek.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (18:14):
Right.
And so finally, one day Ipinged my manager.
I said what does enterprisemean?
And they told me oh, that justis referring to the entirety of
the corporation, but just thingslike that where I felt very not
insecure.
But I was just a little fishswimming in a big old pond and I
(18:36):
didn't know where I was going,and so it was a little bit of a
learning curve at first, but Iknew that for my role I had the
skills that I needed to be ableto do the actual work.
So it was this weird balance oflike you know, can I do this?
Yes, but also what is going on.
Natalie Parker (18:56):
Yeah so.
So talk to me about your first,your first corporate leader.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (19:05):
That was.
That was a tough relationship.
Uh, I I mentioned earlier Ireally enjoy being able to own
work that I'm doing and beingable to put forth a product that
I've worked on, and that wasnot the case in my experience in
that role.
I worked really hard when I wasdoing my onboarding with new
(19:29):
employees, but that wasessentially all I was doing and
so I probably put in in a 40hour week eight hours of work a
week and that was really toughbecause I had this anxiety of I
need to be online, I need todemonstrate that I'm I need to
(19:50):
be part of this organization,that my role is necessary.
Natalie Parker (19:53):
Because you had just survived furlough Right,
and you're in the middle ofCOVID?
Yes, and you're new to the teamyes, fun times.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (20:00):
And.
But I also want to strike thatbalance of like okay, well, if I
ask for work, am I going toseem like my role is redundant?
Am I going to seem like I don'tknow what I'm doing?
But also, if I don't ask forwork, I'm going to be bored out
of my mind.
Natalie Parker (20:12):
What did your manager say?
Is your manager All right,sidebar, it is your manager's
job to define your role, right,and I hate that you had to kind
of go begging for bed Likeplease can I have some more when
it came to work.
Right, but it's your manager'sjob to define your job.
It's your manager's job to makesure that you have a full plate
(20:38):
on your desk.
It's your manager's job to makesure that your time is occupied
.
As a full-fledged adult, it'simportant for you to communicate
, that you have a space and youhave capacity.
But it's their job to help youfill your job.
It's their job.
So I mean, what did your leadersay?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (20:54):
Yeah.
So I remember there would betimes when I would mention that
I had bandwidth or ask if therewere any projects that I could
help with, and I would be metwith the response of nope, we're
good, you know, just keep doingwhat you're doing.
But then in my head I would belike but what I'm doing is
barely anything, and so I wasjust stuck.
(21:16):
I would try to collaborate withother people, even on my team,
and so I would collaborate, helpbrainstorm things.
And I remember one time Ireached out to my manager and I
said hey, I was working with mycoworker.
We thought about these things,I have these ideas and I think I
(21:36):
can help with this, because Iknow that my coworker is really
overloaded and I have somebandwidth and I would love to
help with this.
And I was told to stay in mylane.
Natalie Parker (21:47):
I love that Stay in your lane.
And what that meant to you wasmind your business, don't try to
help a colleague, stay in yourlane.
And what that meant to you wasmind your business, don't, don't
try to help a colleague, stayin your lane.
Yep, how many of you have beenhave ever been told to stay in
your lane by your leader Like?
I think most companies wouldprobably find this a bit
appalling if they knew it wasanother colleague trying to help
(22:08):
another colleague.
And usually stay in your laneis a way to control what's
happening or for them not to getinvolved in understanding
what's happening so that theycan best support either employee
.
But stay in your lane isdangerous because it creates
silos, right, it createsboundaries that are not always
(22:30):
necessary.
I think sometimes it's good tobe like hey, listen, I don't
know about enough about that toknow if their leader would be
okay, and then the leader couldhave negotiated.
But that's not what happened.
Your man was like stay in yourlane.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (22:40):
Yep, yep.
And, like you mentioned, ofcourse there are times where
it's not going to be effectiveor the best use of somebody's
time to both be working on aproject.
In this case, I think, I waslooking for work and I knew that
my co-worker was overwhelmedand I was looking for ways to
help, and it tangentiallyaligned with my role, and so at
(23:03):
that point I was like, okay, I'mnot really sure where to go
from here.
I tried to advocate for myself.
I was being told no, and I'dasked for work and I was being
told nope, you're a rock star,you're a rock star, keep doing
what you're doing.
And so I was.
The word rock star really makesme cringe.
(23:23):
Okay, because, because of thatexperience, because I was told
all the time you're a rock star,you're doing great at what
you're doing.
But I'm sitting over herelooking at my empty calendar,
looking at my empty calendar,looking at my empty to-do list
and saying, okay, what am Irocking?
Natalie Parker (23:41):
so, so let me ask you this was he?
Did you find him to be in theauthentic?
Sarah Vaughn Benjam (23:46):
inauthentic yeah yeah, there were times.
I definitely think the way thathe presented himself to others,
um, versus the way he presentedto me, there was definitely
duplicitousness.
Yes.
Natalie Parker (24:00):
So what was like , what was the worst thing, like
an experience, Like what wasthe worst thing that happened.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (24:07):
The experience that stands out the
most was so, like I mentioned, Iwas responsible for
facilitating soft skillstraining was.
So, like I mentioned, I wasresponsible for facilitating
soft skills training and at thispoint I had sat in on trainings
(24:28):
that he had led.
I had probably had a chance tolead them myself with shadowing.
And there was a day where thesoft skills training was
supposed to happen and mymanager was sick big old cold
headache, couldn't barely talk.
And I said well, I can do this.
I've seen you do it, I know thematerial, I can facilitate it.
(24:51):
And he told me no, no, I'mgoing to do it.
And I said okay, well, are yousure?
You seem like you're not reallyfeeling very well.
You know you seem pretty sick.
I really don't mind you know,trying to pacify a little bit
and he said no, I've takenTylenol, I have a box of tissues
right here and I was okay.
(25:12):
So you're going to blow yournose in front of everybody while
you're trying to give apresentation which you know by
all means, but that was justlike wow.
For one reason or another, youdon't trust me to do what I know
and I'm confident that I can do.
Natalie Parker (25:32):
Is this like a first level manager?
Is this first time managing?
Like how high in theorganization was this role?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (25:39):
This person was one level above me.
I was an individual contributor.
I believe he was at a manageror director role, so not super
high, more of thatmid-management level.
Natalie Parker (25:50):
But in terms of doing a new hire or soft skills
training like it's not, it's nothard, no, probably should not
have been in his job jar.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (26:05):
Right, right, and it was in my job jar.
It was in my job description.
It is what I had been toldwould be my role eventually, but
the eventually was a long time.
Natalie Parker (26:19):
A long time, like weeks or.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (26:20):
No many months.
Natalie Parker (26:23):
And did he ever give you feedback as to like,
hey, you're not, like, was thereany gates of like?
Here's what success looks like.
So this is stage one.
This is stage two.
This is when I'm going to takethe training wheels off.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (26:33):
No, I was just a rock star.
Natalie Parker (26:38):
A rock star.
A rock star, all right.
So what would you tell anybodythat's in that situation, where,
again, you're in kind of thisterritorial circle of someone
not wanting to give up your work, to give?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (26:51):
up your work.
Yeah, I mean I wish I had askedthat manager for feedback Well,
no, I won't say that, because Ithink I did ask for feedback
and I was met with that samephraseology but I think I would
have asked for maybe a timeline,like you were just saying you
(27:13):
know, would have asked for maybea timeline, like you were just
saying you know what does itlook like?
30, 60, 96 months down the line.
When would you expect that Iwould be able to take the reins
on these things and just ask fora little bit more clarity
around his expectations versusmy own expectations, right?
Because I think a lot ofdisappointment comes when you
have your own set ofexpectations that are not the
(27:35):
same as somebody else.
Natalie Parker (27:36):
That is powerful .
Say it one more time.
A lot of disappointment comes.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (27:40):
When your expectations are not the same
as somebody else.
Natalie Parker (27:45):
And you don't talk about it.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (27:47):
That's interesting.
Natalie Parker (27:48):
And I totally agree with you.
I think a lot of times we havewe often have an expectation of
someone we don't articulate.
But I'm sorry that happened toyou.
So what happens next?
Like so, so you leave thatlater and you eventually the
company or so I pivoted toanother team where I was given
(28:10):
more agency.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (28:12):
I was pushed out of my comfort zone to
learn about my own skills fromNatalie herself, and I'd never
been pushed like that before.
Nobody had told me or asked mequestions that made me think
about how I could do thingsdifferently.
Because, you know, being inthose first two roles, I
(28:38):
logically knew that there wereareas of growth, but nobody had
pointed them out to me andnobody had really thought or
cared enough to say this is howyou can get to this next point.
And so I was givenopportunities.
I was allowed to brainstorm andthink about things from
(28:59):
different perspectives.
Of course, it only lasted acouple of months before you know
Things happened.
Things happened.
Natalie Parker (29:07):
But I remember look one, I have not.
I didn't pay her to say thesethings, right, but I remember
saying and I said this toeveryone on my team my job is to
make your resume look sexy.
Do you remember that?
I do remember that my job is tomake your resume look sexy,
that when you leave here, thatthe next person is clamoring to
have you, that you have leapsand bounds experiences where you
(29:30):
know you've done it, you'vedone it well, you've learned
from it, even if you fumbled.
But it's leaps and boundsbeyond.
And I didn't want to do yourwork.
I've done that work.
I had been doing that kind ofwork for I was like I don't want
to do this work, but here let'sfigure out how we can get you
and get you the experiences andhave your ownership.
I think Dan Pink says that whenpeople are working, the best
(29:52):
kind of work that they want hasautonomy, mastery.
And there's a third one, oh God, I can't remember it, but it's
this idea of like people want toown their work.
They want to own their work.
I want to be able to,especially in the kind of
knowledge work that we do.
There's no need for us to sharethis work as a leader.
(30:12):
you really need to be coachingpeople and removing barriers and
that sort of thing, and so Ipromise you I didn't tell her to
say all of those things, but itwas fun right, it was fun and
it was fun to um to help you getyour confidence, cause that was
the other thing.
Like when you have a boss thatsucks, you don't realize how
(30:36):
emasculating, how exhausting andhow much confidence sucking it
is out of you.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (30:41):
Right?
Yep, I remember when I had topivot out of that organization,
being afraid that I wouldn't beable to market myself because I
didn't have any work to show forit.
I'm wondering how I was goingto demonstrate my capabilities
in an interview when I didn'tthink that there was much to
(31:05):
show for it.
And I just remember when I wason this new team, I was able to
make my own presentations andget in front of leaders and
still work together with theteam.
Right, I owned the presentationand I was the leader of the
presentation, but I still had ateam to back me up and to
(31:26):
provide ideas during thepresentation when our leaders
asked questions, and it was justa short stint when I got a
taste of what I wanted, and thenwe had to shift.
Natalie Parker (31:40):
Yeah, yeah, so so now you're an HR business
partner, I am.
You were on the other side,right Cause we were in that
talent management space when I,you're on the other side.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (31:50):
So talk to me about being a business
partner and having to coachleaders that you know may have a
little suck on them like thatmake life difficult for others
have to deal with, whether it'san ego or, um, unwillingness to
listen, and so a lot of thelearning that I'm doing is
(32:19):
understanding how to bestinteract with different types of
people, which is the biggestlearning point for me.
Um, my therapist always saysthat you can't work in HR and be
a sponge.
You have to be a mirror.
Natalie Parker (32:37):
Yes, that's a real.
Your therapist is smart.
That's really really good.
I think it's becauseemotionally you could take on so
much stuff from both thecompany, the management and the
employees that you just leaveheavy Right.
I used to work for a companywhere I used to have to do
layoffs quite a bit because thecontract you'd win a contract,
(32:58):
then you lose a contract andit's just a lot of emotional
weight and I love the idea that.
As as HR like and everybodylikes to blame us, everybody
likes to blame HR Let me tellyou something More often than
not, it's your leader that hasan accountability and we are
there to coach them right.
We're there to coach themthrough what they're supposed to
(33:18):
do, and it's theiraccountability.
More often than not, hr didn'tdo something to you, right, but
that's usually the rep we get.
So that's thing number one.
Thing number two is the mirrorthat we hold is to try to help
the leader understand theiraccountability or their employee
, use an employee to understandthe accountability, and a lot of
(33:41):
times, some things that wecan't tell you is usually we
know when you have bad leaders,we're just not allowed to say it
, and so we have to navigate tolike oh, he's terrible, but how
do we?
Or at least his leadershipskills are terrible, or her
leadership skills are, at leasthis leadership skills are
terrible, or her leadershipskills are terrible, or their
leadership skills are terrible,but how do we help them navigate
so they mitigate the damagethat they're doing to the
(34:02):
workforce?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (34:04):
Yup, and that could come in a lot of
different ways, right?
So sometimes it's just amanager not wanting to have a
performance conversation becausethey don't want to deal with it
or they don't want to confrontit.
Natalie Parker (34:18):
That is so like it's.
That is literally one of thebiggest, most common things.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (34:25):
Yes, and then it gets to a point where
the manager comes to you andsays OK, I want to fire this
person.
You pull up the profile.
Oh, I don't see any disciplineon record.
Have you had any coachingconversations?
Have you had any verbalwarnings?
Written warnings?
No, okay.
Well, let's pivot and startthere, because it's not fair to
(34:45):
the employee to not be awarethat you have these concerns and
we need to give them a chanceto turn it around, because we
don't know if they just don'tknow what they're supposed to be
doing.
We don't know if they're goingsomething really personal and
maybe they'll turn it around.
We don't know if they don'thave the skills and they need to
be upskilled or if they needmentorship.
(35:07):
And so it's really on themanager to have those
conversations to help withgrowth and development, to be
candid and have that goodfeedback.
Natalie Parker (35:18):
But do you see, I agree, and I think that is
both on the manager and on theemployee because, if you want to
keep your job, you better betalking to your manager.
Yeah, at the end of the day,they are an agent of the company
.
I will continue to see.
They are an agent of thecompany and so if they're not
talking to you every I don'tknow eight weeks, you need to be
engaging, instigating aconversation, requiring some
(35:44):
level of feedback and makingthem feel uncomfortable until
they do Not like rude, but justuncomfortable.
Like, hey, listen, do you haveany feedback?
And if they give it to youverbally, what do I say?
Document everything.
Go back to your desk.
Bob, it was so great to meetwith you.
I really appreciate when yousaid I was doing well and I am a
rock star.
(36:04):
Right, and here's what I'mdoing this week.
It's important for us to holdpeople accountable.
You know I talk a lot aboutmutual accountability, like so
the boss has an accountabilityto you, but you also have
accountability to them becauseyou signed up for the job.
And in this knowledge spaceespecially, I mean even in a
blue collar space, like you guyssay listen, hey, I want to
(36:24):
check in, how are we doing?
What am I missing?
And make them talk to you.
And if you cannot, that's whenyou go back to HR.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (36:31):
Right, yep, yes, even my husband this
week was wanting to make surethat his manager knew what he
was working on.
He's in this big kind of shiftwith his company right now, and
so he's kind of working for twobosses.
Natalie Parker (36:45):
That's fun.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (36:46):
Oh, so fun.
And so he's trying to make surethat the boss that hired him is
satisfied with the work thathe's doing, but also that his
new boss also understands whathe's doing.
And so even just last week hesaid hey, manager, I here are
the things that I see as mypriorities this week.
If you need me to shift mypriorities, let me know.
(37:09):
But I wanted to just make youaware so that you know what I'm
up to essentially, and that goesto that accountability, so that
your manager knows what you'reworking on.
There's a lot of times wheremanagers will come to me and say
well, I don't even know whatthey're doing.
Have you talked to them?
Natalie Parker (37:25):
I literally just had this conversation with one
of our other guests, so I said Iwas like, listen, there's an
article out in Forbes I thinkit's Forbes or Fortune, I can't
remember but we'll put it up onthe screen and put it in the
show notes that there's talkingabout there's a flattening in
leadership that companies arestarting to just wholesale wipe
away their middle management,and my concern is that people
(37:49):
will get even less directionthan they get right now.
Like, if a leader has 10 directreports, that's a lot, right,
it's manageable, but it's a lot.
But then if it goes from 10 to20, that's actually not
sustainable to have good culture, good feedback, good direction
setting, because a lot ofleaders, especially in some of
(38:11):
the work that we do, they don'tknow what you're doing.
And so I've adopted I adopted along time ago a cadence of like
I'm going to tell you beforeyou ask, so you don't need to
act like you don't know.
So do you find that?
Like, fairly like, a decentamount of leaders are like yeah,
I'm not sure what my team'sdoing.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (38:29):
Yeah, if leaders are not having regular
touch points, I find that to be,and you know, sometimes you
don't know if that's on themanager or if the employee is
not having those conversationseither.
Natalie Parker (38:41):
To your point from before, why doesn't the
organization expect the managerto know what the employee is
doing?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (38:47):
Right, yeah, and so a lot of the advice
usually that I'm giving is OK.
Well, are you having one onones?
And if not, I would suggestthat you start.
You know, depending on thenature of the role, maybe every
week is too much, you know,maybe you do biweekly, maybe you
do monthly, maybe you shouldhave some team meetings.
If you're not having teammeetings because you want to
(39:07):
make sure that you have facetime so that your employees
don't feel like they'refloundering, but also that so
you can go to your boss and sayhere's what my team is working
on and, you know, demonstratethat the work is valuable.
Natalie Parker (39:21):
Yeah, and in the days of you know, SharePoint,
Google drive, all these otherthings have a shared document
that your leader can go to, witha week by week synopsis, where
you're on one document like weekone, week two, for every week
of 52 weeks so they can go backand look and say, oh, this is
what they did this week.
So give me a, give me a, giveme, let's lift.
(39:44):
Let's lift the curtain a littlebit.
Talk to me about a scenariothat's happened where you were
like, okay, the boss is reallynot in the right and you're
having to help navigate to makesure that the employees are
damaged in the process.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (39:57):
Yeah, so I had a situation where a team
member was not able to come intothe office because their car
was in the shop and it was goingto be in the shop for about two
weeks.
Now our expectation, you know.
You got to come into the office.
We work in a hybrid environment,as many companies do, and I had
(40:18):
gotten a request from theemployee to get a work from home
temporary exception.
You know, I can I work fromhome for two weeks while my car
is in the shop, and so I askedthe employee to speak with their
manager, and then the managergot involved and I got on the
(40:41):
phone with this manager and Iimmediately realized that we
were dealing with a reallydifficult situation because the
manager didn't want to make anyexceptions and wanted the
employee to be butt in seat atthe office no matter what.
And I said, whoa, you know howdo you deal with this when this
manager is being so adamant andsuch a frustrated tone of voice
(41:05):
that they weren't willing tomake any exceptions.
And you know I just had tore-explain.
You know, yes, this employee istypically working in an
in-office role and we're dealingwith kind of a Exigent
(41:26):
circumstances yes yes, and theemployee lived pretty far away.
She was commuting pretty far tocome into the office, and so we
ended up being able toaccommodate.
But it had to involve HR and Idon't think necessarily that
(41:52):
that conversation should havehad to involve me.
I would hope that employeefeels comfortable enough with
the manager, trust their teammember enough to be able to make
exceptions in certain scenarios, team member enough to be able
to make exceptions in certainscenarios, and this just wasn't
one of those types of scenariosand you know, when I got on the
(42:12):
phone with that manager I couldtell right away that this wasn't
, you know, a person who waswilling really to look at things
from any other way besides whatthe rules were.
Natalie Parker (42:24):
Which is interesting, and a lot of times
what the rules were, which isinteresting.
And a lot of times managerswill abdicate their own autonomy
, their own latitude ofdecision-making.
For line seven says this, andthis is how I interpret it so
now, and you've got to know,when you're working with a
leader who starts with no, soyou can determine how best to
(42:46):
navigate that too.
When you're working with aleader who starts with no, so
you can determine how best tonavigate that too.
So I think this is a good timefor us to talk about story.
It's letter time, all right,it's story time.
So again, we asked for letters.
You sent them.
This one is from Priya, who's aproject manager in New York.
She says uh, I've been in mycompany for five years and I
(43:11):
haven't moved up once.
I know I'm ready.
My team knows I'm ready, but myboss keeps making excuses.
He says you're too valuablewhere you are, and last week I
found out he's blocked me fromseveral internal transfer
requests I've made.
I don't want to leave, but Ifeel stuck.
How do I get past my boss, whosees me as an asset but not as a
(43:33):
leader?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (43:35):
That's tough, that's really tough, and
I can only imagine that Priyafeels the same way, maybe that I
felt in some of my past roles,where I knew I had the skills
but I wasn't given theopportunity.
And so one thing that maybe Iwould suggest to Priya is
(43:58):
talking with her manager aboutwhat her goals are, if she
hasn't already.
You know, these are my goals,this is my desired career path.
This is where I see myself inone year, in five years.
How do you see me getting there?
How can?
What are some things that I cando to get there?
You know, I've applied forseveral roles, or I would like
(44:22):
to see myself in this type ofrole, and how would you suggest
that I build certain skills orwhat do I need to focus on so I
can get there?
Because it maybe sounds likethe leader wants to hold on a
little bit, maybe doesn't wantto make any changes, maybe
doesn't want to find somebodyelse and teach somebody else,
(44:45):
but you know you got to let thebird fly the nest sometimes.
Natalie Parker (44:50):
Yeah, I agree with you and I'd say that, from
a talent management perspective,we call these people blockers,
where they know the value of thetalent they have to the point
where they're willing to keepthem as a captivated audience,
not allow them to grow.
So what I'd say to you is thisa couple of things.
One is who are your allies inthe organization that you know?
(45:13):
Have an understanding of yourskillset, your capability, your
worth and your value and beginto ask for coaching on how to
maneuver in the organization.
The other thing is it'simportant for your manager not
to be the only person that knowsyour name in the organization
when there comes an opportunityfor growth.
(45:36):
So, does your HR person know?
Do the people in the nextdepartment that you want to go
to know who knows and what arethe opportunities?
Third thing do you have proofthat your manager's blocking you
, and can you share that eitherwith HR in a way that's not
going to kind of?
You know, currently set yourwhole world on fire and hey, you
(45:58):
know, and if you're ready toleave, you might as well just
ask like, look, I'm noticing apattern.
I don't know if it's true ornot, but I'm noticing a pattern
that I've asked for multiplepromotions because I know I'm
ready for growth and it seemslike you're blocking me.
Is that your intention?
And then see what happens.
You will probably get thebiggest Porky Pig impersonation.
(46:20):
You know it's like right, likeyou're going to get the
stuttering, you're going to getthe red face, whatever it is.
You're probably going to PorkyPig's a little diggit now that I
think about that.
But, like, what you'll probablyget is him or her taken aback
by the fact that you were thatdirect.
And notice, I didn't say you'reblocking me.
What I said is I've noticed apattern, I've noticed that I've
(46:41):
been interested in these thingsand I've noticed that it seems
as if you're not supporting me.
Is that true and is that yourintention?
And all they can do is say yesor no?
Because, to Sarah's point, ifyou have a growth pattern, if
you have an interest and they'reblocking it, that just makes
them selfish.
And if all of that happens andyou now know that they're
(47:02):
selfish, you can leave.
And it's unfortunate, and allroads don't lead to quitting.
But having that conflict, thatpositive conflict on your own
behalf, is really helpful foryour career.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (47:15):
Yep, and it's unfortunate sometimes that
you do have to make the decisionto leave or pivot or go
somewhere else if you're notgetting the growth and
development that you need andthat you want for yourself.
But it's important to advocatefor yourself so that you can get
to where you want to be.
Natalie Parker (47:34):
Yeah.
So I mean, it's a differencefrom, you know, people being
territorial with work and peoplebeing territorial with you.
I like it.
We've got another story.
So this is from oh, this isgood.
This is from a customer servicerep in Nashville, tasha.
I feel like my boss is trying toghost me out of my own job,
(47:57):
like if he just makes thingsmiserable enough, I might quit
on my own or he won't have todeal with the whole messy
process of laying me off.
A few months ago, things werefine.
I had a solid workload, I'dmanaged with some great client
accounts and I felt like I wasactually contributing.
But then, little by little,everything started to shift my
best accounts reassigned, myworkload doubled, but with the
(48:21):
worst clients, ones that areimpossible to please and
basically guaranteed to take myperformance metrics Suddenly I'm
left, getting left out ofmeetings that I used to be in,
and every time I make a requestwhether it's for time off to
support an issue or even justcheck-ins, crickets.
I finally decided just to askhim outright hey, is there
(48:42):
something going on?
I've noticed a lot of changes?
And his response says oh no,it's just a part of
restructuring.
Uh right, meanwhile otherpeople on my team.
New hires are getting moresupport, better accounts
opportunities and I never knewexisted.
It's like I've been silentlydemoted but no one will actually
say on it.
I'd honestly rather be laid offthan the slow starve out of my
(49:04):
job like this.
At least with a layoff you getseverance and can move on with
some dignity.
But if I quit I get nothing andif I stay I risk performance
tanking because they're clearlysetting me up to fail.
So what do I do?
How do I confront this withoutmaking things even worse?
And is there a way to get someactual answers without getting
brushed off again?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (49:25):
without getting brushed off again.
That's tough.
It's always so hard when yousee something, see writing on
the wall, and you're not gettingan answer that you think aligns
with what you see.
It's this weird dissonanceright Of well, I can see what's
(49:46):
happening, so why isn't anybodysaying that something's
happening?
And you feel a little likeyou're spinning and a lot of
times managers can't or won't bedirect.
Sometimes it is a matter ofcan't based on you know if it is
a true.
You know restructure with legalinvolved and whatnot, but there
(50:07):
is something to say abouttransparency and when I hear
restructure I think, okay, well,how does that impact me Of?
Natalie Parker (50:18):
course.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (50:19):
So if I'm Tasha, okay.
So I hear you manager sayingthat there's restructuring.
So with this restructure, whatdoes my role look like in that
restructure?
You know, asking more directquestions.
You know, I think it's naturalto start off with, well, is
something going on, and maybeseeing if that information will
come.
But if it doesn't, then youhave to get more direct and say,
(50:42):
okay, well, if we'rerestructuring, what does my role
look like?
What will my new jobresponsibilities be?
Am I still going to manage XYZaccounts or is my role going to
look different?
And if it is, what do you seemy new role as?
Because it's harder to avoidthose direct, pointed questions
(51:05):
and hopefully get some sort ofinsight into okay, maybe my role
is really being eliminated ormaybe there's something new and
exciting for me.
Natalie Parker (51:20):
I like this concept of being direct.
I'd also earmark the fact thatsometimes leaders don't
recognize when they do death bya thousand cuts.
So all of these things havehappened to you and maybe it's
time for you to write them downon paper on this date.
(51:41):
This happened on this date.
This happened on this date.
This happened on this date.
This happened.
Looking at the totality of it,can you explain to me my
performance was here and I was arock star, and now this is
happening.
Are you giving me a stretchassignment?
Is there a need for this shift?
Because I'm the most tenuredperson Cause maybe the story
you're telling yourself aroundlike being silently fired, maybe
(52:03):
the antithesis of that, whereit's like no, these people are
way too junior to do these hardaccounts and we trust you that
could actually be another story.
The case of point is, the onlyfacts you have are the things
that happened to you.
You don't know the why, soasking the question will at
least get you more information.
If you look at the totality ofall of the actions, in concert
(52:26):
with your leader, to say, okay,the first thing, tell me why
this was how first happened.
Now tell me why this one, andtell me why this one and where
are we going with this Cause?
This shift in workload seems alot different than what I was
enjoying six months ago.
And how long do you think thisis going to last?
And let me tell you what Ireally want to do.
And does this make sense?
And you can tell from theenergy of your leader whether or
not they're afraid of theconversation.
(52:48):
It's a whole vibe, and beingable to tell that energy is
important because you'll thenhave more information.
You may not have clarity, youmay not have all the answers,
but you do have another datapoint to be able to be watchful
for it.
And I think, a lot of timeshaving us having sat on the side
(53:08):
of having to do reductions offorce, having to do layoffs,
having to do restructuresthere's not a lot he or she can
say, but you can tell by theenergy if they have a command of
what's happening or if they arethe author of what's happening
to you or if they are just aminion, if they are the author
of what's happening?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (53:29):
to you, or if they are just a minion,
Right, Yep, Yep.
It's really tough in either ofthose scenarios, whether it's
like oh, I can tell that you'rethe one directing this or I can
tell that you're just kind ofbeing told what to tell me.
It doesn't feel great.
But I think the point oflooking at what you're telling
yourself versus the facts ofwhat's happening and digging
(53:50):
into that will really helpuncover what's really going on
here, or at least closer togetting an answer to that
question.
Natalie Parker (54:01):
For sure, and you're always fighting for your
agency and autonomy so that youcan make a good decision, mm-hmm
.
So, sarah, we've had a reallygreat conversation.
We've talked about careerpivots.
We've talked about bad bossesthat we've had.
We've talked about how, sittingon the side of the leadership
fence and helping leadersnavigate and employees navigate
(54:22):
their tough situations.
What's one thing you would tellan employee about navigating a
difficult leader Like?
What's one thing you wish theydid that they are not doing
right now in mass?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (54:38):
I think it's important to really pay
attention to, kind of to yourpoint, paying attention to how
your manager responds when youask questions, when you ask the
why, when you're really tryingto dig in, because I think it's
really important for managers tobe able to own their
(54:58):
conversations, their decisionsand their management style,
their relationship with theirteam members.
And so when a manager is tryingto give an explanation for
something and they pivot theexplanation or they blame
somebody else or say thedecision was out of their
control, I'd maybe, you know,have that little alert go up in
(55:22):
your head.
You know, maybe it's true thatthe decision was out of their
control and maybe there issomething that the manager can
do in their communication stylewith you to help explain things
a little bit more, because it'sa manager's job to manage their
(55:43):
team and to understand how theirteam works and how the
interpersonal relationships withthemselves, with the team
members, and so I think it'sreally important to understand
and pay attention to that bodylanguage and the responses that
you're getting so that you canunderstand.
(56:03):
Okay, is my manager reallypaying attention to my concerns
or are they just trying to brushthem off?
Natalie Parker (56:11):
I like it.
I like it.
I used to tell people when Iwas in an HR role, whether it
was an HR director or businesspartner or whatever I would say
listen, when somebody tells youHR said, ask them who?
Because I have an A right, I'mNatalie.
Did Natalie say or did someoneelse?
Because the leader does have totake accountability for their
decisions?
All right, that's all for today, folks, and I want to thank
(56:33):
again my guest, sarahVaughn-Benjamin, for coming onto
the show.
It was great to have you.
Make sure you tune in, checkout our Facebook page, check out
the website yourbosssockscom,and remember don't let your boss
suck the life out of you.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
(56:54):
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom.
Or, if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
thenatalieparkercom.
Or if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
thenatalieparkercom.
Because I think a lot of disappointment
comes when you have your own setof expectations that are not
the same as somebody else.
You can't work in HR and be asponge.
You have to be a mirror.
Natalie Parker (00:13):
Welcome to this episode of so your Boss Sucks.
Now what?
I'm Natalie Renee Parker, yourhost, and I'm excited about
today's conversation.
Have you ever met somebody whowas just like super nice and you
wanted the best for them, andthey're really good at their job
?
Well, that basically describesmy next guest and my friend,
sarah Vaughn Benjamin.
(00:33):
She is seven years into an HRcareer in varying different
organizations.
She's going to talk to us todayabout her experience as the
business partner in HR andhaving pivoted from an
interesting career as shestarted and how she got to where
she is, along with how she'shad to deal with some of
(00:54):
managers.
As I played the role of HRleader in several different
organizations, you'd besurprised how many times I've
had to work alongside a bossthat sucks, trying to mitigate
their suckiness on theiremployee base.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about that.
Also, we're going to read yourstories today, so stay tuned.
We've got a lot to talk abouton today's.
All right, so welcome my guest,sarah vaughn benjamin.
(01:31):
Her linkedin bio and everythingwill be on the website
yourbosssexcom, but let'swelcome sarah good to have you.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (01:39):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here I'mexcited, have you?
Natalie Parker (01:42):
It's been so long and I almost forgot your
married name.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (01:46):
I am, yes , yeah, sarah Vaughn Benjamin.
It's a threefold name now.
Natalie Parker (01:51):
Sidebar.
So we were talking about it andwe've decided that if men had
to change their names after theyget married, they weren't
getting into marriage, theywouldn't change their names at
all.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (01:58):
No, it's too much.
Natalie Parker (02:00):
It's a lot Too many logistics Anyway.
So I'm excited to have you.
You and I talked and we werepreparing for our conversation
today.
We were talking about what ittakes to pivot in your career.
So start talking.
Yeah, I've said it before, I'man Xer or Cusper, because I'm
kind of right on the mix, but asa millennial right.
(02:22):
You coming into the workforceyour first job, you landed the
job in academia, yes, and youhad a very interesting
experience there.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (02:33):
Yes, I did yes.
So I actually went to graduateschool to get my degree in
higher education.
So I was studying how to workwith students in their student
life area of their collegecareer.
So after I graduated, I got ajob in student life where I was
(02:55):
working with students as theyprepared for their leadership
skills, learning how to be aleader, different types of
leaders and how they could be apeer leader, which would prepare
them for their future careers.
I was in that field for abouttwo and a half years before I
switched to corporate life,where I've been the past five or
so years.
Natalie Parker (03:16):
But let's talk to me about your first leader
coming out of college.
What was that like, especiallyin the academic space?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (03:26):
Yes, so that was an interesting
experience.
I had never had a full-time jobbefore.
Of course, that was my firstfull-time job and I didn't
really know what to expect whenit came to leadership.
I didn't really know thedynamics of how things were
supposed to play, and I wasstill very junior in the fact
(03:49):
that I didn't know how to speakup for myself and how to best
interact in a professionalenvironment.
And so I came in and I had aleader who had many, many years
of experience in this field,many years of experience in this
department.
That's exciting, yes, veryexciting.
Lots of knowledge, lots ofbackground and insight.
(04:12):
My brain works a lot very wellon insight and information
gathering, and so it was reallycool to be able to have all of
that historical perspective ofhow things have changed and
grown.
I pretty quickly realized thatit was going to be difficult to
(04:36):
delegate some of those years ofexperience and some of those
tasks and ownership to a secondperson.
I was the first person in myrole in this department.
There had never been this rolebefore, and so there wasn't a
lot of clarity around divisionof duties, how things would be
delegated, how things would beowned, not having a lot of
(05:09):
autonomy in what I was doingbecause I was leading this group
of students and I had a leaderwho was used to leading these
groups of students for many,many years, and so it was really
difficult to have that sense ofautonomy when the person that
had been in this role mysupervisor was so Territorial
yes, territorial, very close toit and didn't really seem to
(05:31):
want to let go.
Natalie Parker (05:33):
How did that-?
I'm always fascinated, right?
So I would imagine I'm going tojust make up the-.
This is my story.
This is not what happened, butmy story that I'm telling myself
is.
Here you have someone whoreally has been doing the job
forever, has probably beenbegging for help Like I need a
person, and then along comes theperson and magically you can't
(05:56):
pry the work out of their hands.
How frustrating was that.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (06:00):
It was really frustrating.
I really value autonomy andbeing able to do my own work and
being able to for lack of abetter term prove my worth that
way.
I really enjoy being able tofigure things out myself and
learn by doing and gatheringthat information, and so it was
(06:21):
difficult to forge my own pathwhen I wasn't given full
ownership of what I thought Iwas supposed to be given
ownership of.
Natalie Parker (06:31):
So what did you do?
Did you confront her?
Did you talk to her?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (06:35):
So there were times when I would ask for
work.
There were times when I wouldindicate oh, I have some
bandwidth, I have some time,what can I help with?
I tried that softer approach.
There was one time where wewere both involved in a pilot
program for the Grander StudentLife Arena and both of us were
(07:00):
part of it, and so in myone-on-one one day, I asked if
there was a possibility, if Icould focus on one area of our
department and if she would beokay with focusing on a separate
area of the department so thatI could have my own experience
in this pilot program.
And the response that I was metwith was very defensive.
(07:23):
What did she say?
And the response that I was metwith was very defensive.
What did she say?
She said that it was herdepartment and that if she
wanted to be able to participatein this program for her whole
department, that it was herright Because it was hers and
she wanted to be able to overseeall of that.
Natalie Parker (07:43):
She sounds like Gollum from Lord of the Rings,
my precious lady A little bitand I was really taken aback.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (07:52):
I was really trying to be brave.
Like I mentioned earlier, I wasstill very junior and not being
able to speak up for myself,and so I talked myself up a lot
for this, to really try to standup for myself and kind of set
those boundaries, and I wasn'treally met with a positive
response, and so I was reallydiscouraged after that and it
(08:13):
ended up working out to where Ikind of was able to get some of
those boundaries that I hadasked for, but the initial
response was not great.
Natalie Parker (08:23):
So what would you tell someone in that
situation?
Because I think territorialismis another example of leadership
or individual insecurity.
When a leader is notcomfortable, either they don't
know how to tell you what to do,they don't know how to teach
you what to do, or they'rescared that if you do it, that
(08:44):
they will be seen as eitherincompetent because it took them
so long to learn it, or theywill be seen as not doing work,
because you're now doing thework a lot.
And then there's there's thepeople who they've been doing it
for so long.
They wouldn't know what to doif they didn't have the work
they're doing.
So what would you tell yourself?
(09:05):
Like now, like someone that'sin that situation?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (09:10):
Yeah.
So I would tell somebody thatit's okay to speak up for
yourself, it's okay to setboundaries, and you're not
always going to be able tocontrol the outcome, but it's
important to look out foryourself and understand that you
(09:30):
have your own career path.
You have your own needs, wants,desires when it comes to your
growth and development in yourcareer.
And if you don't ask, theanswer will always be no.
Natalie Parker (09:43):
That's fair right.
My grandmother would say closemouth, don't get the answer will
always be.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (09:47):
No, that's fair right.
Natalie Parker (09:48):
My grandmother would say close mouth, don't get
fed right.
So the other thing that I'vedone and I shared this in last
season, if you want to go back,I think it's episode four where
I talk.
No, it's episode two, where Italk about a boss who didn't
want me because he thought I waslike somebody's relative, and I
ended up finding my way andmaking myself valuable to the
organization.
I think it's important for usto recognize that you're going
(10:11):
to get a job and you're going toget paid one way or another,
but it's up to you to try tofigure out how to add value, and
one way we do that is byfiguring out what's important to
the other person.
One way we do that is byfiguring out what's important to
the other person, right, whattheir interests are, trying to
soften them up.
And it seems counterproductiveto beg for work, right, and I'm
(10:33):
sure there's some of you like Iain't begging for no work.
They going to pay me and I'lljust sit there.
But if you do that, the chancesare that more likely than not
that leader's going to be likewell, I don't know what she does
, so we should fire her.
Right?
It's an interesting dichotomy.
So how did it end up?
What ended up happening?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (10:51):
We were able to have our separate
focuses in that program.
I was able to focus on thestudent leadership and my
manager was able to focus on adifferent area of the department
.
But that didn't change that Ifelt uncomfy about it.
You know, I knew that I hadtried to set up my boundaries
and that we had had kind of adifficult conversation, and so
(11:17):
anytime that we werespecifically working on this
project I was worried aboutstepping on toes, because that
was the initial response that Ihad gotten.
And so I in a way got what Iwanted, but not without some
anxiety behind the curtain whichtakes people don't understand.
Natalie Parker (11:38):
When you have anxiety at work, it takes away
from your ability to performbecause you're still driving
energy to a part of you tomuster up the strength to be
courageous enough to do the workin the first place, which is
super exhausting.
Yeah, so you left academia andyou pivoted Talk to me about the
grand pivot from like dealingwith college students to now
(12:01):
dealing with grown adult babies.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (12:03):
Yes, so I often say that HR is, or the
role that I was in in academiawas like HR for 18-year-olds.
I was working a lot withconflict management and
leadership styles and eventerritorialism amongst the
students and understanding howwe can navigate those barriers.
(12:23):
The big pivot for me fromacademia to corporate America
came when COVID hit.
I think that was probably ahuge pivot for a lot of people
because it gave folks a time tothink about their priorities and
their goals and what they weredoing with their life, and I was
furloughed at the beginning ofCOVID.
Natalie Parker (12:45):
What is furloughed for people who don't
know.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (12:47):
So a furlough is a temporary layoff,
for lack of a better term.
It is when you are notpermitted to work, you're not
paid during a defined period oftime until you're called back to
work.
Natalie Parker (13:01):
It's like that episode in Friends where they're
like we were on a break rightLike we're not together, but you
can't go anywhere else, youcan't go anywhere else.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (13:10):
You're still employed, but you're not
making any of our money, so justsit tight until we decide we're
ready for you to come back.
Luckily, I was told kind ofthat time frame at the beginning
.
You know you're going to befurloughed for eight weeks, so I
had two months to kind of sitand figure out what I was doing
with myself during a time wherethere wasn't a lot of
(13:32):
flexibility in terms of groupactivities and getting out in
public and doing things becauseof, you know, the health status
of our country.
So that was when I reallystarted to think about okay,
this doesn't feel very stablebecause my role was affected by
the economic status of thecountry, et cetera.
(13:56):
And so I started to think aboutwhat my other options were.
You know, do I pivot to acorporate world?
Do I look for another role inacademia at a different
institution?
And my dad had kind of been youknow in my ear a little bit
about I really think you wouldbe good at HR, I really think
(14:18):
that you should do this.
You know he would ask mequestions about what I thought
about his teams and how heshould address things, and so I
started looking, I startedthinking about what I thought
about his teams and how heshould address things, and so I
started looking.
I started thinking about where Icould use my skills and I
really relied on a Facebookgroup that was focused on folks
(14:38):
who had been in student life andhad pivoted elsewhere.
And I was really lucky to catchthat Facebook group at a time
when they were hosting webinarsfocused on various industries so
HR, education, tech, insurance,whatever it might be and so I
(14:59):
listened in on an HR webinar andlearned about how I could use
my skills and market myself topivot.
So I was taking a look at myskills, at the work that I had
done, a lot of curriculumdevelopment, training and I
noticed that learning anddevelopment might be a good
pivot for me, and so I startedlooking for learning and
(15:21):
development roles and I was ableto find one around.
You know, about a year intoCOVID, which I felt really,
really lucky to be able to makethat switch.
Natalie Parker (15:32):
So you go.
I think one of the things thatI love about the story is that
you knew you needed to changeright and you know, not having a
job for eight weeks, althoughyou had a job, is a good impetus
for changing right.
But I love how resourceful youare at finding a group of people
who had done what you wanted todo in terms of pivoting.
(15:56):
A lot of times we will findourselves in positions and we're
stuck right, like I don't wantto be here but I have no idea
what's next, and we're stuckright Like I don't want to be
here but I have no idea what'snext, and I appreciate your
resourcefulness and going tojust at least look and see okay,
what else is everyone elsedoing.
And I'd say that to you ifyou're in a sucky situation
where your boss sucks and youknow it's time to go, if you
(16:17):
need to pull the rip cord, havean escape plan like what other
opportunities that aretangential to your experience
that would allow you to make apivot.
Sometimes that comes withlateral move.
That means you're not gettingmore money.
Sometimes you may need to takea cut off top.
That means you're going to takea little less money, but it
gets you out of your currentmisery and into a new
(16:40):
opportunity.
So talk to me about this moveto corporate.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (16:44):
Yeah.
So I was really nervous.
I didn't know similar to youknow, starting my career I
didn't know what to expect.
I you know you hear all therumors or tropes about what
corporate America is and isn't.
And I also knew that I wasreally excited to start
something new where I felt thatI could use my skills.
(17:07):
So I started out in learningand development and I was
onboarding employees, I wasdelivering soft skills training
to new hires as well and I had alot of exposure across the
business.
And I had a lot of exposureacross the business.
You know, we were a prettysmall organization and I was
(17:32):
really lucky to get in withvarious departments and various
levels of folks across the wholegroup.
Natalie Parker (17:34):
So, as you go through corporate America, how
confident were you about beingthere?
Like what did it feel like?
Were you excited?
Did you feel like you belonged?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (17:43):
You were like oh, my God, I don't know
what I'm doing.
It was a steep learning curveat first.
You know, I think anytime youjoin a new organization there's
going to be acronyms and lingothat you're not familiar with.
So it was not only the lingo ofthis company, but also just
corporate lingo in general.
I remember, towards thebeginning of my role there, it
(18:06):
was either my manager or acoworker using the word
enterprise.
I said I don't know whatenterprise means.
Natalie Parker (18:12):
What does that mean?
That doesn't mean Star Trek.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (18:14):
Right.
And so finally, one day Ipinged my manager.
I said what does enterprisemean?
And they told me oh, that justis referring to the entirety of
the corporation, but just thingslike that where I felt very not
insecure.
But I was just a little fishswimming in a big old pond and I
(18:36):
didn't know where I was going,and so it was a little bit of a
learning curve at first, but Iknew that for my role I had the
skills that I needed to be ableto do the actual work.
So it was this weird balance oflike you know, can I do this?
Yes, but also what is going on.
Natalie Parker (18:56):
Yeah so.
So talk to me about your first,your first corporate leader.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (19:05):
That was.
That was a tough relationship.
Uh, I I mentioned earlier Ireally enjoy being able to own
work that I'm doing and beingable to put forth a product that
I've worked on, and that wasnot the case in my experience in
that role.
I worked really hard when I wasdoing my onboarding with new
(19:29):
employees, but that wasessentially all I was doing and
so I probably put in in a 40hour week eight hours of work a
week and that was really toughbecause I had this anxiety of I
need to be online, I need todemonstrate that I'm I need to
(19:50):
be part of this organization,that my role is necessary.
Natalie Parker (19:53):
Because you had just survived furlough Right,
and you're in the middle ofCOVID?
Yes, and you're new to the teamyes, fun times.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (20:00):
And.
But I also want to strike thatbalance of like okay, well, if I
ask for work, am I going toseem like my role is redundant?
Am I going to seem like I don'tknow what I'm doing?
But also, if I don't ask forwork, I'm going to be bored out
of my mind.
Natalie Parker (20:12):
What did your manager say?
Is your manager All right,sidebar, it is your manager's
job to define your role, right,and I hate that you had to kind
of go begging for bed Likeplease can I have some more when
it came to work.
Right, but it's your manager'sjob to define your job.
It's your manager's job to makesure that you have a full plate
(20:38):
on your desk.
It's your manager's job to makesure that your time is occupied
.
As a full-fledged adult, it'simportant for you to communicate
, that you have a space and youhave capacity.
But it's their job to help youfill your job.
It's their job.
So I mean, what did your leadersay?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (20:54):
Yeah.
So I remember there would betimes when I would mention that
I had bandwidth or ask if therewere any projects that I could
help with, and I would be metwith the response of nope, we're
good, you know, just keep doingwhat you're doing.
But then in my head I would belike but what I'm doing is
barely anything, and so I wasjust stuck.
(21:16):
I would try to collaborate withother people, even on my team,
and so I would collaborate, helpbrainstorm things.
And I remember one time Ireached out to my manager and I
said hey, I was working with mycoworker.
We thought about these things,I have these ideas and I think I
(21:36):
can help with this, because Iknow that my coworker is really
overloaded and I have somebandwidth and I would love to
help with this.
And I was told to stay in mylane.
Natalie Parker (21:47):
I love that Stay in your lane.
And what that meant to you wasmind your business, don't try to
help a colleague, stay in yourlane.
And what that meant to you wasmind your business, don't, don't
try to help a colleague, stayin your lane.
Yep, how many of you have beenhave ever been told to stay in
your lane by your leader Like?
I think most companies wouldprobably find this a bit
appalling if they knew it wasanother colleague trying to help
(22:08):
another colleague.
And usually stay in your laneis a way to control what's
happening or for them not to getinvolved in understanding
what's happening so that theycan best support either employee
.
But stay in your lane isdangerous because it creates
silos, right, it createsboundaries that are not always
(22:30):
necessary.
I think sometimes it's good tobe like hey, listen, I don't
know about enough about that toknow if their leader would be
okay, and then the leader couldhave negotiated.
But that's not what happened.
Your man was like stay in yourlane.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (22:40):
Yep, yep.
And, like you mentioned, ofcourse there are times where
it's not going to be effectiveor the best use of somebody's
time to both be working on aproject.
In this case, I think, I waslooking for work and I knew that
my co-worker was overwhelmedand I was looking for ways to
help, and it tangentiallyaligned with my role, and so at
(23:03):
that point I was like, okay, I'mnot really sure where to go
from here.
I tried to advocate for myself.
I was being told no, and I'dasked for work and I was being
told nope, you're a rock star,you're a rock star, keep doing
what you're doing.
And so I was.
The word rock star really makesme cringe.
(23:23):
Okay, because, because of thatexperience, because I was told
all the time you're a rock star,you're doing great at what
you're doing.
But I'm sitting over herelooking at my empty calendar,
looking at my empty calendar,looking at my empty to-do list
and saying, okay, what am Irocking?
Natalie Parker (23:41):
so, so let me ask you this was he?
Did you find him to be in theauthentic?
Sarah Vaughn Benjam (23:46):
inauthentic yeah yeah, there were times.
I definitely think the way thathe presented himself to others,
um, versus the way he presentedto me, there was definitely
duplicitousness.
Yes.
Natalie Parker (24:00):
So what was like , what was the worst thing, like
an experience, Like what wasthe worst thing that happened.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (24:07):
The experience that stands out the
most was so, like I mentioned, Iwas responsible for
facilitating soft skillstraining was.
So, like I mentioned, I wasresponsible for facilitating
soft skills training and at thispoint I had sat in on trainings
(24:28):
that he had led.
I had probably had a chance tolead them myself with shadowing.
And there was a day where thesoft skills training was
supposed to happen and mymanager was sick big old cold
headache, couldn't barely talk.
And I said well, I can do this.
I've seen you do it, I know thematerial, I can facilitate it.
(24:51):
And he told me no, no, I'mgoing to do it.
And I said okay, well, are yousure?
You seem like you're not reallyfeeling very well.
You know you seem pretty sick.
I really don't mind you know,trying to pacify a little bit
and he said no, I've takenTylenol, I have a box of tissues
right here and I was okay.
(25:12):
So you're going to blow yournose in front of everybody while
you're trying to give apresentation which you know by
all means, but that was justlike wow.
For one reason or another, youdon't trust me to do what I know
and I'm confident that I can do.
Natalie Parker (25:32):
Is this like a first level manager?
Is this first time managing?
Like how high in theorganization was this role?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (25:39):
This person was one level above me.
I was an individual contributor.
I believe he was at a manageror director role, so not super
high, more of thatmid-management level.
Natalie Parker (25:50):
But in terms of doing a new hire or soft skills
training like it's not, it's nothard, no, probably should not
have been in his job jar.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (26:05):
Right, right, and it was in my job jar.
It was in my job description.
It is what I had been toldwould be my role eventually, but
the eventually was a long time.
Natalie Parker (26:19):
A long time, like weeks or.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (26:20):
No many months.
Natalie Parker (26:23):
And did he ever give you feedback as to like,
hey, you're not, like, was thereany gates of like?
Here's what success looks like.
So this is stage one.
This is stage two.
This is when I'm going to takethe training wheels off.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (26:33):
No, I was just a rock star.
Natalie Parker (26:38):
A rock star.
A rock star, all right.
So what would you tell anybodythat's in that situation, where,
again, you're in kind of thisterritorial circle of someone
not wanting to give up your work, to give?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (26:51):
up your work.
Yeah, I mean I wish I had askedthat manager for feedback Well,
no, I won't say that, because Ithink I did ask for feedback
and I was met with that samephraseology but I think I would
have asked for maybe a timeline,like you were just saying you
(27:13):
know, would have asked for maybea timeline, like you were just
saying you know what does itlook like?
30, 60, 96 months down the line.
When would you expect that Iwould be able to take the reins
on these things and just ask fora little bit more clarity
around his expectations versusmy own expectations, right?
Because I think a lot ofdisappointment comes when you
have your own set ofexpectations that are not the
(27:35):
same as somebody else.
Natalie Parker (27:36):
That is powerful .
Say it one more time.
A lot of disappointment comes.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (27:40):
When your expectations are not the same
as somebody else.
Natalie Parker (27:45):
And you don't talk about it.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (27:47):
That's interesting.
Natalie Parker (27:48):
And I totally agree with you.
I think a lot of times we havewe often have an expectation of
someone we don't articulate.
But I'm sorry that happened toyou.
So what happens next?
Like so, so you leave thatlater and you eventually the
company or so I pivoted toanother team where I was given
(28:10):
more agency.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (28:12):
I was pushed out of my comfort zone to
learn about my own skills fromNatalie herself, and I'd never
been pushed like that before.
Nobody had told me or asked mequestions that made me think
about how I could do thingsdifferently.
Because, you know, being inthose first two roles, I
(28:38):
logically knew that there wereareas of growth, but nobody had
pointed them out to me andnobody had really thought or
cared enough to say this is howyou can get to this next point.
And so I was givenopportunities.
I was allowed to brainstorm andthink about things from
(28:59):
different perspectives.
Of course, it only lasted acouple of months before you know
Things happened.
Things happened.
Natalie Parker (29:07):
But I remember look one, I have not.
I didn't pay her to say thesethings, right, but I remember
saying and I said this toeveryone on my team my job is to
make your resume look sexy.
Do you remember that?
I do remember that my job is tomake your resume look sexy,
that when you leave here, thatthe next person is clamoring to
have you, that you have leapsand bounds experiences where you
(29:30):
know you've done it, you'vedone it well, you've learned
from it, even if you fumbled.
But it's leaps and boundsbeyond.
And I didn't want to do yourwork.
I've done that work.
I had been doing that kind ofwork for I was like I don't want
to do this work, but here let'sfigure out how we can get you
and get you the experiences andhave your ownership.
I think Dan Pink says that whenpeople are working, the best
(29:52):
kind of work that they want hasautonomy, mastery.
And there's a third one, oh God, I can't remember it, but it's
this idea of like people want toown their work.
They want to own their work.
I want to be able to,especially in the kind of
knowledge work that we do.
There's no need for us to sharethis work as a leader.
(30:12):
you really need to be coachingpeople and removing barriers and
that sort of thing, and so Ipromise you I didn't tell her to
say all of those things, but itwas fun right, it was fun and
it was fun to um to help you getyour confidence, cause that was
the other thing.
Like when you have a boss thatsucks, you don't realize how
(30:36):
emasculating, how exhausting andhow much confidence sucking it
is out of you.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (30:41):
Right?
Yep, I remember when I had topivot out of that organization,
being afraid that I wouldn't beable to market myself because I
didn't have any work to show forit.
I'm wondering how I was goingto demonstrate my capabilities
in an interview when I didn'tthink that there was much to
(31:05):
show for it.
And I just remember when I wason this new team, I was able to
make my own presentations andget in front of leaders and
still work together with theteam.
Right, I owned the presentationand I was the leader of the
presentation, but I still had ateam to back me up and to
(31:26):
provide ideas during thepresentation when our leaders
asked questions, and it was justa short stint when I got a
taste of what I wanted, and thenwe had to shift.
Natalie Parker (31:40):
Yeah, yeah, so so now you're an HR business
partner, I am.
You were on the other side,right Cause we were in that
talent management space when I,you're on the other side.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (31:50):
So talk to me about being a business
partner and having to coachleaders that you know may have a
little suck on them like thatmake life difficult for others
have to deal with, whether it'san ego or, um, unwillingness to
listen, and so a lot of thelearning that I'm doing is
(32:19):
understanding how to bestinteract with different types of
people, which is the biggestlearning point for me.
Um, my therapist always saysthat you can't work in HR and be
a sponge.
You have to be a mirror.
Natalie Parker (32:37):
Yes, that's a real.
Your therapist is smart.
That's really really good.
I think it's becauseemotionally you could take on so
much stuff from both thecompany, the management and the
employees that you just leaveheavy Right.
I used to work for a companywhere I used to have to do
layoffs quite a bit because thecontract you'd win a contract,
(32:58):
then you lose a contract andit's just a lot of emotional
weight and I love the idea that.
As as HR like and everybodylikes to blame us, everybody
likes to blame HR Let me tellyou something More often than
not, it's your leader that hasan accountability and we are
there to coach them right.
We're there to coach themthrough what they're supposed to
(33:18):
do, and it's theiraccountability.
More often than not, hr didn'tdo something to you, right, but
that's usually the rep we get.
So that's thing number one.
Thing number two is the mirrorthat we hold is to try to help
the leader understand theiraccountability or their employee
, use an employee to understandthe accountability, and a lot of
(33:41):
times, some things that wecan't tell you is usually we
know when you have bad leaders,we're just not allowed to say it
, and so we have to navigate tolike oh, he's terrible, but how
do we?
Or at least his leadershipskills are terrible, or her
leadership skills are, at leasthis leadership skills are
terrible, or her leadershipskills are terrible, or their
leadership skills are terrible,but how do we help them navigate
so they mitigate the damagethat they're doing to the
(34:02):
workforce?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (34:04):
Yup, and that could come in a lot of
different ways, right?
So sometimes it's just amanager not wanting to have a
performance conversation becausethey don't want to deal with it
or they don't want to confrontit.
Natalie Parker (34:18):
That is so like it's.
That is literally one of thebiggest, most common things.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (34:25):
Yes, and then it gets to a point where
the manager comes to you andsays OK, I want to fire this
person.
You pull up the profile.
Oh, I don't see any disciplineon record.
Have you had any coachingconversations?
Have you had any verbalwarnings?
Written warnings?
No, okay.
Well, let's pivot and startthere, because it's not fair to
(34:45):
the employee to not be awarethat you have these concerns and
we need to give them a chanceto turn it around, because we
don't know if they just don'tknow what they're supposed to be
doing.
We don't know if they're goingsomething really personal and
maybe they'll turn it around.
We don't know if they don'thave the skills and they need to
be upskilled or if they needmentorship.
(35:07):
And so it's really on themanager to have those
conversations to help withgrowth and development, to be
candid and have that goodfeedback.
Natalie Parker (35:18):
But do you see, I agree, and I think that is
both on the manager and on theemployee because, if you want to
keep your job, you better betalking to your manager.
Yeah, at the end of the day,they are an agent of the company
.
I will continue to see.
They are an agent of thecompany and so if they're not
talking to you every I don'tknow eight weeks, you need to be
engaging, instigating aconversation, requiring some
(35:44):
level of feedback and makingthem feel uncomfortable until
they do Not like rude, but justuncomfortable.
Like, hey, listen, do you haveany feedback?
And if they give it to youverbally, what do I say?
Document everything.
Go back to your desk.
Bob, it was so great to meetwith you.
I really appreciate when yousaid I was doing well and I am a
rock star.
(36:04):
Right, and here's what I'mdoing this week.
It's important for us to holdpeople accountable.
You know I talk a lot aboutmutual accountability, like so
the boss has an accountabilityto you, but you also have
accountability to them becauseyou signed up for the job.
And in this knowledge spaceespecially, I mean even in a
blue collar space, like you guyssay listen, hey, I want to
(36:24):
check in, how are we doing?
What am I missing?
And make them talk to you.
And if you cannot, that's whenyou go back to HR.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (36:31):
Right, yep, yes, even my husband this
week was wanting to make surethat his manager knew what he
was working on.
He's in this big kind of shiftwith his company right now, and
so he's kind of working for twobosses.
Natalie Parker (36:45):
That's fun.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (36:46):
Oh, so fun.
And so he's trying to make surethat the boss that hired him is
satisfied with the work thathe's doing, but also that his
new boss also understands whathe's doing.
And so even just last week hesaid hey, manager, I here are
the things that I see as mypriorities this week.
If you need me to shift mypriorities, let me know.
(37:09):
But I wanted to just make youaware so that you know what I'm
up to essentially, and that goesto that accountability, so that
your manager knows what you'reworking on.
There's a lot of times wheremanagers will come to me and say
well, I don't even know whatthey're doing.
Have you talked to them?
Natalie Parker (37:25):
I literally just had this conversation with one
of our other guests, so I said Iwas like, listen, there's an
article out in Forbes I thinkit's Forbes or Fortune, I can't
remember but we'll put it up onthe screen and put it in the
show notes that there's talkingabout there's a flattening in
leadership that companies arestarting to just wholesale wipe
away their middle management,and my concern is that people
(37:49):
will get even less directionthan they get right now.
Like, if a leader has 10 directreports, that's a lot, right,
it's manageable, but it's a lot.
But then if it goes from 10 to20, that's actually not
sustainable to have good culture, good feedback, good direction
setting, because a lot ofleaders, especially in some of
(38:11):
the work that we do, they don'tknow what you're doing.
And so I've adopted I adopted along time ago a cadence of like
I'm going to tell you beforeyou ask, so you don't need to
act like you don't know.
So do you find that?
Like, fairly like, a decentamount of leaders are like yeah,
I'm not sure what my team'sdoing.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (38:29):
Yeah, if leaders are not having regular
touch points, I find that to be,and you know, sometimes you
don't know if that's on themanager or if the employee is
not having those conversationseither.
Natalie Parker (38:41):
To your point from before, why doesn't the
organization expect the managerto know what the employee is
doing?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (38:47):
Right, yeah, and so a lot of the advice
usually that I'm giving is OK.
Well, are you having one onones?
And if not, I would suggestthat you start.
You know, depending on thenature of the role, maybe every
week is too much, you know,maybe you do biweekly, maybe you
do monthly, maybe you shouldhave some team meetings.
If you're not having teammeetings because you want to
(39:07):
make sure that you have facetime so that your employees
don't feel like they'refloundering, but also that so
you can go to your boss and sayhere's what my team is working
on and, you know, demonstratethat the work is valuable.
Natalie Parker (39:21):
Yeah, and in the days of you know, SharePoint,
Google drive, all these otherthings have a shared document
that your leader can go to, witha week by week synopsis, where
you're on one document like weekone, week two, for every week
of 52 weeks so they can go backand look and say, oh, this is
what they did this week.
So give me a, give me a, giveme, let's lift.
(39:44):
Let's lift the curtain a littlebit.
Talk to me about a scenariothat's happened where you were
like, okay, the boss is reallynot in the right and you're
having to help navigate to makesure that the employees are
damaged in the process.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (39:57):
Yeah, so I had a situation where a team
member was not able to come intothe office because their car
was in the shop and it was goingto be in the shop for about two
weeks.
Now our expectation, you know.
You got to come into the office.
We work in a hybrid environment,as many companies do, and I had
(40:18):
gotten a request from theemployee to get a work from home
temporary exception.
You know, I can I work fromhome for two weeks while my car
is in the shop, and so I askedthe employee to speak with their
manager, and then the managergot involved and I got on the
(40:41):
phone with this manager and Iimmediately realized that we
were dealing with a reallydifficult situation because the
manager didn't want to make anyexceptions and wanted the
employee to be butt in seat atthe office no matter what.
And I said, whoa, you know howdo you deal with this when this
manager is being so adamant andsuch a frustrated tone of voice
(41:05):
that they weren't willing tomake any exceptions.
And you know I just had tore-explain.
You know, yes, this employee istypically working in an
in-office role and we're dealingwith kind of a Exigent
(41:26):
circumstances yes yes, and theemployee lived pretty far away.
She was commuting pretty far tocome into the office, and so we
ended up being able toaccommodate.
But it had to involve HR and Idon't think necessarily that
(41:52):
that conversation should havehad to involve me.
I would hope that employeefeels comfortable enough with
the manager, trust their teammember enough to be able to make
exceptions in certain scenarios, team member enough to be able
to make exceptions in certainscenarios, and this just wasn't
one of those types of scenariosand you know, when I got on the
(42:12):
phone with that manager I couldtell right away that this wasn't
, you know, a person who waswilling really to look at things
from any other way besides whatthe rules were.
Natalie Parker (42:24):
Which is interesting, and a lot of times
what the rules were, which isinteresting.
And a lot of times managerswill abdicate their own autonomy
, their own latitude ofdecision-making.
For line seven says this, andthis is how I interpret it so
now, and you've got to know,when you're working with a
leader who starts with no, soyou can determine how best to
(42:46):
navigate that too.
When you're working with aleader who starts with no, so
you can determine how best tonavigate that too.
So I think this is a good timefor us to talk about story.
It's letter time, all right,it's story time.
So again, we asked for letters.
You sent them.
This one is from Priya, who's aproject manager in New York.
She says uh, I've been in mycompany for five years and I
(43:11):
haven't moved up once.
I know I'm ready.
My team knows I'm ready, but myboss keeps making excuses.
He says you're too valuablewhere you are, and last week I
found out he's blocked me fromseveral internal transfer
requests I've made.
I don't want to leave, but Ifeel stuck.
How do I get past my boss, whosees me as an asset but not as a
(43:33):
leader?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (43:35):
That's tough, that's really tough, and
I can only imagine that Priyafeels the same way, maybe that I
felt in some of my past roles,where I knew I had the skills
but I wasn't given theopportunity.
And so one thing that maybe Iwould suggest to Priya is
(43:58):
talking with her manager aboutwhat her goals are, if she
hasn't already.
You know, these are my goals,this is my desired career path.
This is where I see myself inone year, in five years.
How do you see me getting there?
How can?
What are some things that I cando to get there?
You know, I've applied forseveral roles, or I would like
(44:22):
to see myself in this type ofrole, and how would you suggest
that I build certain skills orwhat do I need to focus on so I
can get there?
Because it maybe sounds likethe leader wants to hold on a
little bit, maybe doesn't wantto make any changes, maybe
doesn't want to find somebodyelse and teach somebody else,
(44:45):
but you know you got to let thebird fly the nest sometimes.
Natalie Parker (44:50):
Yeah, I agree with you and I'd say that, from
a talent management perspective,we call these people blockers,
where they know the value of thetalent they have to the point
where they're willing to keepthem as a captivated audience,
not allow them to grow.
So what I'd say to you is thisa couple of things.
One is who are your allies inthe organization that you know?
(45:13):
Have an understanding of yourskillset, your capability, your
worth and your value and beginto ask for coaching on how to
maneuver in the organization.
The other thing is it'simportant for your manager not
to be the only person that knowsyour name in the organization
when there comes an opportunityfor growth.
(45:36):
So, does your HR person know?
Do the people in the nextdepartment that you want to go
to know who knows and what arethe opportunities?
Third thing do you have proofthat your manager's blocking you
, and can you share that eitherwith HR in a way that's not
going to kind of?
You know, currently set yourwhole world on fire and hey, you
(45:58):
know, and if you're ready toleave, you might as well just
ask like, look, I'm noticing apattern.
I don't know if it's true ornot, but I'm noticing a pattern
that I've asked for multiplepromotions because I know I'm
ready for growth and it seemslike you're blocking me.
Is that your intention?
And then see what happens.
You will probably get thebiggest Porky Pig impersonation.
(46:20):
You know it's like right, likeyou're going to get the
stuttering, you're going to getthe red face, whatever it is.
You're probably going to PorkyPig's a little diggit now that I
think about that.
But, like, what you'll probablyget is him or her taken aback
by the fact that you were thatdirect.
And notice, I didn't say you'reblocking me.
What I said is I've noticed apattern, I've noticed that I've
(46:41):
been interested in these thingsand I've noticed that it seems
as if you're not supporting me.
Is that true and is that yourintention?
And all they can do is say yesor no?
Because, to Sarah's point, ifyou have a growth pattern, if
you have an interest and they'reblocking it, that just makes
them selfish.
And if all of that happens andyou now know that they're
(47:02):
selfish, you can leave.
And it's unfortunate, and allroads don't lead to quitting.
But having that conflict, thatpositive conflict on your own
behalf, is really helpful foryour career.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (47:15):
Yep, and it's unfortunate sometimes that
you do have to make the decisionto leave or pivot or go
somewhere else if you're notgetting the growth and
development that you need andthat you want for yourself.
But it's important to advocatefor yourself so that you can get
to where you want to be.
Natalie Parker (47:34):
Yeah.
So I mean, it's a differencefrom, you know, people being
territorial with work and peoplebeing territorial with you.
I like it.
We've got another story.
So this is from oh, this isgood.
This is from a customer servicerep in Nashville, tasha.
I feel like my boss is trying toghost me out of my own job,
(47:57):
like if he just makes thingsmiserable enough, I might quit
on my own or he won't have todeal with the whole messy
process of laying me off.
A few months ago, things werefine.
I had a solid workload, I'dmanaged with some great client
accounts and I felt like I wasactually contributing.
But then, little by little,everything started to shift my
best accounts reassigned, myworkload doubled, but with the
(48:21):
worst clients, ones that areimpossible to please and
basically guaranteed to take myperformance metrics Suddenly I'm
left, getting left out ofmeetings that I used to be in,
and every time I make a requestwhether it's for time off to
support an issue or even justcheck-ins, crickets.
I finally decided just to askhim outright hey, is there
(48:42):
something going on?
I've noticed a lot of changes?
And his response says oh no,it's just a part of
restructuring.
Uh right, meanwhile otherpeople on my team.
New hires are getting moresupport, better accounts
opportunities and I never knewexisted.
It's like I've been silentlydemoted but no one will actually
say on it.
I'd honestly rather be laid offthan the slow starve out of my
(49:04):
job like this.
At least with a layoff you getseverance and can move on with
some dignity.
But if I quit I get nothing andif I stay I risk performance
tanking because they're clearlysetting me up to fail.
So what do I do?
How do I confront this withoutmaking things even worse?
And is there a way to get someactual answers without getting
brushed off again?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (49:25):
without getting brushed off again.
That's tough.
It's always so hard when yousee something, see writing on
the wall, and you're not gettingan answer that you think aligns
with what you see.
It's this weird dissonanceright Of well, I can see what's
(49:46):
happening, so why isn't anybodysaying that something's
happening?
And you feel a little likeyou're spinning and a lot of
times managers can't or won't bedirect.
Sometimes it is a matter ofcan't based on you know if it is
a true.
You know restructure with legalinvolved and whatnot, but there
(50:07):
is something to say abouttransparency and when I hear
restructure I think, okay, well,how does that impact me Of?
Natalie Parker (50:18):
course.
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (50:19):
So if I'm Tasha, okay.
So I hear you manager sayingthat there's restructuring.
So with this restructure, whatdoes my role look like in that
restructure?
You know, asking more directquestions.
You know, I think it's naturalto start off with, well, is
something going on, and maybeseeing if that information will
come.
But if it doesn't, then youhave to get more direct and say,
(50:42):
okay, well, if we'rerestructuring, what does my role
look like?
What will my new jobresponsibilities be?
Am I still going to manage XYZaccounts or is my role going to
look different?
And if it is, what do you seemy new role as?
Because it's harder to avoidthose direct, pointed questions
(51:05):
and hopefully get some sort ofinsight into okay, maybe my role
is really being eliminated ormaybe there's something new and
exciting for me.
Natalie Parker (51:20):
I like this concept of being direct.
I'd also earmark the fact thatsometimes leaders don't
recognize when they do death bya thousand cuts.
So all of these things havehappened to you and maybe it's
time for you to write them downon paper on this date.
(51:41):
This happened on this date.
This happened on this date.
This happened on this date.
This happened.
Looking at the totality of it,can you explain to me my
performance was here and I was arock star, and now this is
happening.
Are you giving me a stretchassignment?
Is there a need for this shift?
Because I'm the most tenuredperson Cause maybe the story
you're telling yourself aroundlike being silently fired, maybe
(52:03):
the antithesis of that, whereit's like no, these people are
way too junior to do these hardaccounts and we trust you that
could actually be another story.
The case of point is, the onlyfacts you have are the things
that happened to you.
You don't know the why, soasking the question will at
least get you more information.
If you look at the totality ofall of the actions, in concert
(52:26):
with your leader, to say, okay,the first thing, tell me why
this was how first happened.
Now tell me why this one, andtell me why this one and where
are we going with this Cause?
This shift in workload seems alot different than what I was
enjoying six months ago.
And how long do you think thisis going to last?
And let me tell you what Ireally want to do.
And does this make sense?
And you can tell from theenergy of your leader whether or
not they're afraid of theconversation.
(52:48):
It's a whole vibe, and beingable to tell that energy is
important because you'll thenhave more information.
You may not have clarity, youmay not have all the answers,
but you do have another datapoint to be able to be watchful
for it.
And I think, a lot of timeshaving us having sat on the side
(53:08):
of having to do reductions offorce, having to do layoffs,
having to do restructuresthere's not a lot he or she can
say, but you can tell by theenergy if they have a command of
what's happening or if they arethe author of what's happening
to you or if they are just aminion, if they are the author
of what's happening?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (53:29):
to you, or if they are just a minion,
Right, Yep, Yep.
It's really tough in either ofthose scenarios, whether it's
like oh, I can tell that you'rethe one directing this or I can
tell that you're just kind ofbeing told what to tell me.
It doesn't feel great.
But I think the point oflooking at what you're telling
yourself versus the facts ofwhat's happening and digging
(53:50):
into that will really helpuncover what's really going on
here, or at least closer togetting an answer to that
question.
Natalie Parker (54:01):
For sure, and you're always fighting for your
agency and autonomy so that youcan make a good decision, mm-hmm
.
So, sarah, we've had a reallygreat conversation.
We've talked about careerpivots.
We've talked about bad bossesthat we've had.
We've talked about how, sittingon the side of the leadership
fence and helping leadersnavigate and employees navigate
(54:22):
their tough situations.
What's one thing you would tellan employee about navigating a
difficult leader Like?
What's one thing you wish theydid that they are not doing
right now in mass?
Sarah Vaughn Benjamin (54:38):
I think it's important to really pay
attention to, kind of to yourpoint, paying attention to how
your manager responds when youask questions, when you ask the
why, when you're really tryingto dig in, because I think it's
really important for managers tobe able to own their
(54:58):
conversations, their decisionsand their management style,
their relationship with theirteam members.
And so when a manager is tryingto give an explanation for
something and they pivot theexplanation or they blame
somebody else or say thedecision was out of their
control, I'd maybe, you know,have that little alert go up in
(55:22):
your head.
You know, maybe it's true thatthe decision was out of their
control and maybe there issomething that the manager can
do in their communication stylewith you to help explain things
a little bit more, because it'sa manager's job to manage their
(55:43):
team and to understand how theirteam works and how the
interpersonal relationships withthemselves, with the team
members, and so I think it'sreally important to understand
and pay attention to that bodylanguage and the responses that
you're getting so that you canunderstand.
(56:03):
Okay, is my manager reallypaying attention to my concerns
or are they just trying to brushthem off?
Natalie Parker (56:11):
I like it.
I like it.
I used to tell people when Iwas in an HR role, whether it
was an HR director or businesspartner or whatever I would say
listen, when somebody tells youHR said, ask them who?
Because I have an A right, I'mNatalie.
Did Natalie say or did someoneelse?
Because the leader does have totake accountability for their
decisions?
All right, that's all for today, folks, and I want to thank
(56:33):
again my guest, sarahVaughn-Benjamin, for coming onto
the show.
It was great to have you.
Make sure you tune in, checkout our Facebook page, check out
the website yourbosssockscom,and remember don't let your boss
suck the life out of you.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
(56:54):
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom.
Or, if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
thenatalieparkercom.
Or if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
thenatalieparkercom.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.