Racial slurs in the workplace, managers who know nothing about your job, and organizations eliminating leadership positions – welcome to the wild world of modern work. In this eye-opening conversation, HR executive DeVaughn G. Stephens and host Natalie Parker pull back the curtain on what really happens behind closed doors in corporate America.
DeVaughn shares the shocking story of a boss who called him an "effing moolie" during his first professional HR role, revealing how this trial-by-fire experience taught him to manage his reactions and take ownership of his career development. Their discussion examines the critical moment when DeVaughn realized "the better this resume becomes, the better I have to become" – fundamentally changing his approach to professional growth.
Far from just war stories, this episode delivers actionable insights for anyone navigating difficult leadership. DeVaughn explains why documenting your accomplishments, knowing when to speak up, and recognizing when to leave are essential skills for workplace survival. The conversation explores the concerning trend of organizations flattening hierarchies and eliminating management positions, questioning how this impacts employee development and supervision.
Most powerfully, DeVaughn challenges listeners to take full responsibility for their professional journeys: "Your career is your career. It is not the organization's, it is not your manager's." He and Natalie examine why HR professionals often give excellent career advice while failing to apply the same wisdom to their own situations.
Whether you're dealing with a boss who can't take feedback, considering when to pull the ripcord on a toxic job, or simply trying to navigate workplace politics, this candid conversation provides the perspective and strategies you need to thrive despite challenging leadership.
Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
Share your bad boss story on our website.
Learn more or Book Natalie.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
He said my mother would call you an effing moolie.
And he said that to me and Ilooked at him and before I knew
it, I said to him I would havecalled your mother an OB.
Or he had a copy of his resumeand he said you see the resume.
I said yes.
He said that's who I competeagainst.
He said the better this pieceof paper becomes, the better I
(00:22):
have to become.
And in that moment I took mycareer development, my career
management, into my own hands.
I stopped, if you will,depending on others or expecting
others to contribute to that insome way.
All right, all right, we'reback.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
This is season two of so your Boss Sucks.
Now what?
I'm Natalie Parker and I'm yourhost.
I'm excited today because I amhere with my friend, my homie
for 20 plus years, the Mr DevonStevens.
Hello, Devon.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Hello Ms Parker, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'm excited.
I'm excited because not only ishe my friend, but he's also my
brother, having gone toMorehouse, me going to Bennett,
fellow partner in the HRtrenches.
So we're going to talk allabout HR this season, this
entire season, and I'm excitedto have you.
Why don't you share with us,like let's talk about your first
(01:34):
really bad job?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
My first really bad job.
Well, first, thank you forhaving me.
I appreciate this.
As you know, this is my firsttime doing something like this.
He's going to kill me later,totally outside of my comfort
zone.
But anything for my friend, mysister, correct?
Oh, yes, so my first terriblejob.
I would probably argue that Ihaven't had many terrible jobs.
(02:03):
I've had some really goodlearning experiences from some
terrible moments on the job.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
And I think probably one of my first ones was
graduating college, had gonehome for a year and then got
what I call my real job, startedmy career in HR in the summer
of 2001,.
When I met you for the firsttime, actually, and I was
(02:32):
working for a gentleman who wasvery colorful, had a very
dynamic character about him, alot of personality, dynamic
character about him, a lot ofpersonality, and I remember he
(02:53):
would always give me a hard time.
I used to call him my tourmentor, if you will, as I spent
on being a mentor.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Your tour mentor.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yes, he would torment me on purpose.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Like trial by fire.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Trial by fire.
He wanted a reaction.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
What was the job, though?
What was the?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I was in a corporate leadership development program
in the human resources function.
It was a rotational, meaning Iwas to spend a year in each of
my assignments, so thisparticular year was my first
year.
It was in labor relations.
It was in South Jersey.
(03:29):
I had relocated from theMidwest, and so I was long ways
from home, in an area unfamiliarto me, didn't know anyone.
I had the benefit, though, ofmy best friend being over the
river in Philadelphia, so thatwas some comfort.
(03:50):
But I was new and learning howto live on my own, manage pay
bills, be responsible, be anadult.
And so here I am in this man'soffice and he is giving me my
first terrible moment, and he'ssaying you know, my mother would
(04:11):
probably call you an effingmovie.
Oh, no.
And I'm looking at him.
He said that he said it to meIn the office, in the office.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Not in the parking lot.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
No, we were at work, we were in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
He said say this again.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
He said my mother would call you an effing moolie
and I did not know what that was.
I later learned I guess it hassome associations with an
eggplant and the color black andthings like that.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So he was Italian.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yes, and I believe old school Italian.
Okay, and he said that to meand I looked at him and before I
knew it I said to him I wouldhave called your mother an OB.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
He just looked at me, but wait a minute, y'all are
both in hr just exchanging slurs.
Yes, at that moment don't dothis at home children.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, I don't, I don't encourage.
But at that moment I think thatI was not um paying attention
to the fact that we worked inhuman resources.
I was paying attention to thefact that this man just called
me out of my name and the shockand the disrespect, I think,
took me off guard, and so Ithink there was this reaction
(05:37):
and I realized that that's a lotof what he would do.
He would do those littletriggers just to get a reaction
out of me.
I think it entertained him insome ways Until eventually, one
night I remember I left work,mad at him around six o'clock or
something.
I left work and I went home andI literally sat on my couch in
(05:58):
front of the TV.
I never turned the TV on and Isat there fuming, mad, mad.
I think.
I probably cursed him and saidall kinds of things and was
ready to quit and go home.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
He said worse things than the bully thing.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I'm sure, I'm sure, do you remember?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
what he said to send you in this space where you're
just sitting in front of him.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I think he probably said something questioning my
capability or my work orsomething like that.
I'm not quite sure, because alot of times it would often be
more character, you know,assassination type things or
just being nasty, just becauseyou know.
(06:39):
And I think, like I said, itwas to get a rise out of.
Yeah, and I remember sitting onthat couch mad and then
eventually, somewhere around 10,30, 11 o'clock, I said why am I
sitting on this couch mad bymyself If he's at home?
And he drank.
He told me he would drink aglass of red wine every night.
(06:59):
I said he's probably drank hisglass of red wine, enjoyed his
family and going to bedpeacefully.
Why am I mad?
And I don't have anybody elseto be mad with me.
I need some company if I'mgoing to be mad, because it's no
fun doing this by yourself.
Let's commiserate.
And so I realized that I'm notgoing to let him get me anymore,
(07:21):
I'm not going to let himtrigger me or get those rises
out of me anymore, and so I kindof learned how to just look at
him and either say nothing orsmile when he would start
cutting up.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So why didn't you report him Like, why didn't you
go tell somebody else like he'sso out of pocket?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
You know that's a good question, I think.
Being young in my career, beingaway from home, as he would do
other things to teach me andexpose me to things, I remember
(08:13):
one time that he took acolleague and I to New York City
, took us to the Statue ofLiberty and he took me to my
first dinner with a live operasinging, and I had been exposed
to, you know, different types offood calamari, first time I
(08:33):
ever had bruschetta and allthose types of things.
And whenever we would deal withbecause this was a labor
relations rotation we would dealwith the union, he made it a
point to give me space in placeto be seen and to be heard, and
so I think I tended to overlookor minimize those moments where
(08:53):
he was doing what he would bedoing just to pick him in, you
know, take me off of his own,probably self-enjoyment.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
But do you think, because labor relations can be a
bit of a tough role, right?
Do you think some of that wasto toughen you up because you
did have to deal with the laborunion?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Probably so, and I can imagine that being the case,
because a lot of times you doend up in some very contentious,
confrontational type momentswith management and union,
particularly when you disagreeon contractual terms or
different actions that may havebeen taken.
(09:35):
But I had also grown up in ablue collar unionized town.
I grew up in the Midwest, so Igrew up in the Metro Detroit
area and in the UAW families, soit wasn't like I was unfamiliar
with that.
I watched my grandparents andother members of my family get
(09:55):
up and go into plants andfactories to build cars and so
forth on a daily basis, so Iunderstood that side.
I probably didn't understandthe side of being on the
management team, though.
Right.
So it may have been part ofhelping me build the toughen my
(10:17):
skin you know a little bit, butI never asked him why.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Would you go back and ask Like, because you're not
talking like like.
I've shared my stories witheveryone here and there are
still some people that you know.
I'm glad that I survived it,and if I saw them on the street
while I wouldn't push them infront of a car, I don't know
that I would have the grace tobe like hey, how you doing Right
(10:43):
, but you don't seem to havethat animus.
We talk about this, I probably.
If you read the Bible, I'mprobably more like Peter.
You say something to me.
I'm cutting your ear off.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
You are definitely more of a peacemaker than I am,
I think for the most part, therewere moments where he showed me
more of kindness or care andconcern.
I think he just had a rougharound the edge way about doing
(11:14):
it.
Yeah, and so.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And we're talking 20 years ago.
This is like, not now 24,technically.
Don't talk to me.
I had to say all that.
Nobody asked you that.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Listen, listen, it hit me this year.
I was like, wow, I've beendoing this a long time.
But I think a lot of it alsogoes to how I was brought up, my
maternal grandmother and my mom.
They were very intentionalabout exposing me and my brother
and my cousins to differentwalks of life.
(11:49):
Right, sure, we wear bluecollar, we grew up in, quote,
unquote, the inner city, urbanarea and so forth, and you can
take all of the stereotypes andcharacterizations you want to
put on that as you will, but myfamily was very intentional
about exposing us to all typesof people.
(12:09):
We, you know, with communityservice, we did a lot of
community services, children.
My mom's godmother, part of herparish, her Catholic parish ran
a soup kitchen and so we had tovolunteer and serve the
homeless.
We had to help pack Christmasgifts and you know, we had to
help pack Christmas gifts, andyou know.
(12:30):
And we were part of upper brownprograms, and my particular
upper brown.
We were on a boarding schoolcampus.
So I was exposed, you know,from the from, from, from the, I
guess, lower class to the upperclass, whatever.
However, you want tocharacterize those, those, those
social classes, right, you know, characterize those social
(12:51):
classes right, and so I didn't.
I wasn't quick to just judge,but I was not a fool to not pay
attention to how people treatedyou.
My grandmother also taught meit doesn't take but two seconds,
two and two, to figure, torealize you know a person
(13:12):
sometimes, and so I've paidattention to those things, and
then I also learned how tonavigate and maneuver
accordingly, so that we couldstill have the relationship and
interactions that we needed tohave.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I think there's two things that came to mind for me
that you said that I think isimportant.
One is you mentioned it twiceyou value relationships, and so
that typically dictates how yourespond in situations which I
don't know for me.
Sometimes I'm ready to blow upthe bridge and I'm okay with it.
But and you know, maybe peopleare like you where you're like.
(13:44):
No, I value the relationship.
But I think the other thingthat's really commendable is
your ability to see the threadof doing soup kitchen work and
bringing some of the value intoa really difficult situation.
And I think a lot of times,when we're in really bad
leadership situations withpeople, that we don't look at
the arc of our life to say whatare the tools that we can bring
(14:07):
into the situation to help usnavigate, survive and thrive.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, I've always kind of realized that sometimes
the behaviors you're seeing inanother person you never know
you may exhibit them one dayyourself, right?
And so I try to just be alittle mindful of how I come
across, because I think, inknowing myself, if that button
gets pushed because I'm a verymuch a compartmentalizer and a
(14:43):
suppression type person in orderfor me to keep moving and keep
going, and I know that if youpush that button, whatever
happened two, three years ago,weeks ago, months ago it's going
to come right up in this momentand by the time we finish, one
of us won't be walking out andnot plan to walk out.
So we have to be not onlymindful of the other but be
(15:11):
aware of who you are too, and soI or be aware of what your
triggers might be.
So I think I've tried to payattention to those things as
I've grown up, you know, becauseas a kid I probably would have
been a little bit more explosiveand I probably would have, as
they say, set you straight,right where you stood.
(15:33):
But the kids, they now stand ondead and that business would
have been firm with me.
You understand what I'm saying,but I would have been paying
attention to the fact that nowyou're not a kid anymore, I'm an
adult in a professional setting, and my conduct, I think,
should reflect that.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
And I think that's really sometimes people forget
that you are, it's work rightand how you present is a direct
reflection on you.
People may never see how theleader acts.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
So we've taken kind of account, you and I right, if
we laid our cars together I'malmost certain you had at least
three or four worse leaders thanme right In the arc of your
career.
You've had some reallyinteresting exchanges Like walk
us through kind of high level,like what were some of those
(16:27):
scenarios and how did you kindof with each level?
Because you've risen in yourcareer well, from, you know,
being in the leadershipdevelopment program to being an
executive Right.
So I mean, and at every levelyou've had some kind of
challenge.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Absolutely.
I think, when I look at mycareer, a lot of the assignments
that I've had and not just thework or the task part of those
assignments, but the managementrelationships have been trialed
by fire and I have been burned,gotten some burns and been able
(17:07):
to heal from them along the way.
I think one of my, if you will,worse management experiences
actually was probably one of mymost teachable moments for me.
I remember having a managerthat was very standoffish, not
(17:27):
very communicative, not veryadvisory, not very communicative
, not very advisory, and it justwas a difficult relationship.
And I remember going in andasking for a salary revision and
(17:53):
I went to the individual andsaid, hey, I don't think that my
salary is aligned with thescope of the role that I have.
The role that I have is a lotbigger than what I'm being paid
and so I would respectfully liketo have my salary reconsidered
and did you come with all of theevidence of like.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Here's what I'm doing now.
List of like.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Here's what I'm doing now list Absolutely, and he
himself knew it.
Yeah, Because we went from ateam of I think there may have
been three or four, includingmyself on the business partner
team, down to just two.
It was the lead manager, himand then me, and I'm covering
(18:29):
all of this, included doinghandling all the functional work
with staffing, with comp, withEEO diversity, AAP work.
It was a lot, it was a great job, a lot, as well as having a
small union to also interfacewith, and so it was a lot of
work and I just felt like my paywas not reflective of that.
(18:51):
It didn't line with what Ithought the market was paying
for the caliber of work I wasperforming.
Which, as an HR professional, itis our job to know that Nothing
we're going to deal with on adaily basis is someone coming in
talking about pay, whether theywere paid improperly, properly,
(19:14):
timely, untimely, what have you?
It's always.
You know there's always a payissue coming.
But I remember doing that.
He came back to me.
He was very clear.
He said this is the job that Ihave and the pay that you're
making is what I'm paying for.
It.
Like it or love it, it is whatit is.
(19:34):
Ok.
And that was it.
I said OK.
He then went forward in ourconversation and he said you see
this resume.
I think he had brought a copyof his resume or he had a copy
of his resume.
He said you see the resume.
I said yes.
He said that's who I competeagainst.
(19:55):
He said the better this pieceof paper becomes, the better I
have to become.
And in that moment I took mycareer development, my career
management, into my own hands.
I stopped, if you will,depending on others or expecting
others to contribute to that insome way, and I started to
(20:18):
realize that the dependence Ineeded to change that to using
them as resources, not assources, of what I was doing in
my career, whether it was my payor my assignments and so forth,
and so I kept my nose to thegrind.
I was completing my master's, Ithink during that time I knew
(20:44):
that the company had a paybackrequirement.
I called the tuition assistanceprogram, found out when was the
last day that I would beresponsible or held accountable
for paying back anythingassociated with my master's
degree.
And when I finished my master'sand got past that date, I was
(21:09):
actively interviewing, I found anew position and I effectively
resigned.
And then I went that date I wasactively interviewing, I found
a new position and I effectivelyresigned.
And then I went from there.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Listen, I'm not mad at you.
At the end of the day, you'vegot to own your career and, with
organizations being where theyare, as much as we want to
believe they're merit based,they're also usually not looking
to just give away money, Rightand?
And so one you advocated, Twoyou put you know having, and I
(21:36):
told this story.
I think I told this story tothis group about how I was
denied a good performance ratingand I brought in like this
whole manual of all the things Ididn't like.
Now tell me how I didn'tdeserve more Right and so going,
armed with data, and I tell theteam every, every time.
I tell a group every timedocument everything, because
you're your best defense whenthings fall apart.
(21:58):
It's just important.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
And I'll tell you that, even with to your point of
document everything, it hastaken me years to get to that
point.
I had to learn how to create aspecial email file to push those
things to the side so I couldhave a quick access to the
(22:23):
records, because before I didnot, you know, it took me a long
time to say you need to catalogthat stuff, and I didn't do it.
You need to catalog that stuffand I didn't do it.
And then, when it came time forperformance review time, I'm
scrambling, going througheverything, trying to find the
evidence or, you know, referenceback to this date or this
moment and things of that nature.
So we have to be deliberate.
(22:44):
Be as deliberate with yourselfas you are with others, and I
think that's one of the thingsthat I've learned with HR.
We, as HR professionals, willtake better care of others.
We'll coach and counsel andengineering and finance and all
the other functional groups andbusinesses that we support, but
(23:05):
when it comes for us, we are notgood at it.
We don't give ourselves thesame advice and the same
coaching and counseling, and soI've had to learn how to do that
along along those years, and soyou know good point.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
That's fair.
That's fair.
It's hard.
As a caregiver of people in anorganization, you do have to put
the oxygen mask on yourself.
Let's talk about your role asan HR leader.
So you've seen hundreds ofemployees in different
industries come in and out ofyour office.
When you think about, like, thenumber one complaint that
people have about their leader,what's the theme?
(23:41):
You see, what's the like, thetop three typically it will.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
It has been around and in top three.
So I won't rank the three, I'lljust cluster them.
There's typically an element ofrace, there is an element of
sex and then there is just anelement of dislike or that
(24:13):
disrespect.
Okay, and so I have seen.
Where, you know, a person maycome in and say, well, I feel
that I'm being picked on or myperformance review was not good,
and of course it may be because, you know, I'm the only female
on the team.
They give all of the roles tothe young guys or to the young
(24:38):
white guys, or they only caterto this group, or I hang out
with this friend or that friendor something of that effect, or
I don't socialize after work,and so now I'm being excluded
and disrespected and things ofthat nature.
(25:01):
It is what I have learned notto do, which I think initially
was probably the first reactionwas to argue.
Their perception of theirexperience.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Say that one more time.
You've learned not to.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I've learned not to argue their perception of their
experience, because they'recoming in telling me this is how
I have perceived how I've beentreated.
This is how I this is myreality how I have perceived how
I've been treated.
This is how I this is myreality.
And I think when I first startedearly in my career, being young
, probably a little immature, alittle naive, I was trying to
(25:41):
argue that down, trying todismiss it or to or minimize it
in some way, because I think Iwould feel I would, I would feel
you could feel the, the, the,the, the, the hurt or the,
whatever you know discomfortthey felt.
And I'm trying to know no, maybethat's not what they met.
And here I am trying to thinkfor this manager, and I started
(26:05):
to.
I can't think for them, I don'tknow what they were thinking in
that moment, no more than I canthink for you and how you feel
and how you've been treated.
And so I learned to listen and Ilearned to coach or give some
tips and tools on how they cango back and address it.
And one of the tips that Itypically give is be very
upfront, be very clear, be verydirect and assertive about how
(26:29):
to treat, how to tell them howto treat you and how you respond
to certain things, and so so ifthey are typically someone who
yells and maybe they're yellinghas this aggressive bent to it,
be very clear with them that youdon't respond well to that type
of you know tone and tenor andthat type of communication style
.
You shut off from that.
Because when they now have thatawareness but yet they
(26:51):
persistently or consistentlykeep doing it, then I think we
have a problem.
And I also think sometimes whenyou don't give a person an
opportunity, when you don't tellthem no or don't tell them stop
, or something like that theydon't know They'll keep doing
what they don't know not to do.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's funny you should say that because a lot of
people stay silent.
So I'm now back at your firststory, where you're like I
didn't say a whole lot of thingsto the guy who was calling me
all these little slurs, but nowyour position in your role
coaching others is like no,speak up, right, say something.
I think most people don't speakup because they don't know how.
(27:29):
They don't know how to do itwithout an impassioned and bold
and you know diatribe that makesthem feel like they're about to
be on, you know, the last sceneof glory.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I'd like to believe that.
I used to believe that theydidn't know how.
People know how to speak up forthemselves.
As we talked about pay beingyou know an issue that whenever
your pay is a problem, you speakup very clearly.
Whenever your pay is a problem,you speak up very clearly.
So if you can speak up for yourpay, you can speak up when
someone has offended you ortaken a step too far in your
boundaries or whatever that theymay have crossed with you Speak
(28:02):
up.
Silence perpetuates issues, soyou can't keep silent and then
expect somebody to automaticallychange because they didn't hear
you say that this didn't feelgood or that you did something
wrong to them or you feltuncomfortable.
But the moment that they hearit and you know that you've been
(28:25):
very clear now they'reaccountable for it they're not.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
They're accountable for it.
So but what do you say?
Because you told you said thethree top issues you saw were
race, sex and being excluded ordisrespected in some kind.
To me, all of those situationsare majority, minority.
In some way, shape or form.
Like I am not with them.
I have some level of othernessthat puts me outside of the
(28:52):
sanctum of being in the coolkids, if you will.
So what do you like?
What do you say to the personwho's maybe done some of that?
But either they're beingdeflected or people are
pretending it's not the problem,Like so if I know that you're,
you've got cronyism or nepotismand I didn't get a job, like
(29:14):
because it's hard to prove.
It's hard to prove.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Let's let's assume that a, an HR professional or a
company did the good faith,investigated, addressed the
issue and took some correctiveaction investigated, addressed
the issue and took somecorrective action.
But let's assume that theperson or the issue didn't
change right and it's justpersistent.
(29:40):
Because sometimes thesecultures, these organizational
cultures, are so thick and solegacy it is hard to break them
and they're not going to breakovernight, may not even break in
a year.
You have to realize that youdon't have to stay in that and I
(30:06):
think a lot of times peoplestay in these situations because
one they don't want to putforth the effort to go look for
something new, because thatrequires effort and time and
energy and things of that natureand taking a risk too right.
But you know it's a choice tobe in the organization, it's a
choice to be here.
So sometimes the best thing foryourself is to remove yourself,
so leave Just like you acceptedthe offer.
(30:29):
Resign, so leave, just like youaccepted the offer, resign.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
So it's funny because we talk about often about when
to tell people, when to pull theripcord right, like when's the
time for you to leave, not overpetty differences, not over the
fact that you didn't get yourway in a meeting, but when it's
harming you psychologically oremotionally.
Right, you left because of thewhole pay situation.
(30:58):
Have you ever stayed somewheretoo long?
Like you know what?
I stayed too long.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Actually, yes, I think I have a couple well,
maybe two moments that I canthink of in my career where I
felt like I stayed too long.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And what was hindsight being 2020,?
What were the two or threeindicators that it was like too
long?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Well, the first thing was and I don't want, but it
took me a moment to firstrealize what was my purpose in
being in this particularassignment.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Say it again, that's good.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I had to figure out my purpose.
Why was I, why did I choose toaccept this offer, relocate my
entire life, come to this state,this place, this company, and
do this work with this group?
And once I realized what thatpurpose was, then it was then
time to realize, well, what werethe perspective, things or
(32:08):
actions that I was supposed totake, or accomplishments, or
whatever achievements that Ineeded to make.
And then say, okay, it's timeto go and exit.
And in this particular case, Ithink I realized that my purpose
in that assignment was todevelop others, was to give to
(32:29):
others what I had gotten overthe years, the goodness of what
I had gotten Now.
I'm a strength-based type ofperson, so I will leverage your
strengths to help build you, andI don't necessarily I'm not
going to anchor on where yourquote-unquote weaknesses are or
areas of development.
I think if I highlight yourstrengths, then we can overcome
(32:52):
those other areas and you canperform and do well.
And so I had.
I think my purpose was todevelop the team members, and so
there was one where they neededsome credentials and I needed
to support them as they gainedtheir credentials.
They were in a position and Isaid I remember saying to them
look for the profile of this joband what you're bringing to the
(33:15):
table.
There's a mismatch.
We need to get you somecredentials so that when, if you
ever, decide to leave here oreven grow in this organization,
when you put your paper on thestreet in the market, your
credentials and your work willall line up and it will be easy.
You won't get dismissed becauseyou don't have the education or
you won't get dismissed becauseyou don't have quote unquote
(33:35):
years of experience in somethinglike that.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
And you stay trying to get the person.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Get that person, get another, move them along in
their career.
Get them experiences.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
What did that cost you, though?
Because that's a lot of energy.
I mean, you're getting yourpaycheck, don't get me wrong.
And as a leader you should behelping your team, but you knew
it was time to go.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I did.
As a matter of fact, I knew itwas time to go, probably two
years before the actual time toleave came, but I said I'm going
to stay through these next twoyears.
And what happened is one of theindividuals I think I may have
(34:23):
become even too vested in theirdevelopment too, but one of the
individuals made a decision thatI didn't necessarily see coming
.
Um, and at the time that theymade that decision, um, I should
have said okay, divine, nowyou've done what you were
supposed to do, you havesatisfied this purpose.
(34:44):
Now you need to start lookingfor your opportunity to exit out
.
But I also had a uh,particularly at this time an
actual good boss who would saythings and do things to convince
me to stay, gave retentionbonuses, gave promotions, gave
good increases, gave goodassignments and tasks, and so I
(35:06):
think I got conflicted with thatand in my own- Perfect, like
your next person.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
That's correct and I think that's really important to
say, because a lot of timesorganizations, especially if you
have potential, if you'reconsidered a high potential, if
you're considered a valuable,key player in your organization,
will do things to pacify andsatiate you, right, whether
(35:34):
that's you know degrees orcertificates and training and
all of that's good.
But the real question is areyou growing and is this the best
thing for you?
Right, right, because they cancontinue to kind of, you know,
sedate you into a comfortbecause they love you and they
need you.
But is that the best thing for?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
you.
It's a good question and youknow I am the product of baby
boomers loyalists, and so youknow it was getting an education
, get a good job, stay at thatcompany, retire, collect your
pension and things of thatnature.
But I'm also that firstgeneration.
I think that started to breakaway from that.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, but you and I still probably have more tenure
in most of our second and thirdand fourth jobs than most people
.
So I talk about this in the lastspeeches.
We grew up and it said get goodgrades, go to college and get a
job, not a purpose, notanything else.
Right, the job was the thingyou get, that's it, and you ride
(36:33):
it out until the wheels falloff.
Right, and it's nothing for usto have seen people and come in.
When we came into the workforce, I bet you that first guy was
in there.
25, 30 years, right, that wasreally a lot for us to see.
But now the average tenure inany company is like 3.8 years,
according to the Department ofLabor Statistics.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Two if you're lucky.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And I don't even understand how you get depth
with that, right?
Like I mean, how do you getdepth in a skill set with just
two years?
Right, I think you've got it.
It takes one year to learn it,another year to try to change it
and another year after that tosee what the change happened,
right?
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yes, but I think a lot of times you know when
you're being recruited out.
You know the carrots are alwaysa lot more tastier and a lot
more shiny, and everything, whenthey're in front of you.
And so, whereas you spent two,maybe three years at one company
, they've done all the training,the investment and so forth.
(37:31):
The new company now gets thebenefit of all of that and all I
have to do is give you theactual task and you can write
the codes, you can engineer theassignment, you can HR your way
out of a situation now.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
It's just a different environment.
No, but part of that.
I think we saw it when we werecoming up to where employers
would see people give them more,give them more accountabilities
and not give them the pay Right.
So I'm giving you a whole extrajob or a whole extra
accountability.
That's more significant thanlike just this one extra task.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
But your performance and your skill and your
proficiency did lack extra taskright, but your performance and
your skill and your proficiencydid lack.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, but my point is how many times did you see
where it's like oh, so-and-sohas been in this job and they're
below midpoint by 7%, 8% and wewant to give that?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
oh, we don't give 10% increases but, they deserve 10%
increases in contrast to all oftheir peers, because the
companies aren't willing to dothose shifts and changes to keep
the talent Correct, and so Ithink again that goes to where
the former mentality was I'lljust stay and suffer through
(38:43):
that Right, Whereas today no,Thankfully I've gotten the
education, the training, thecertificates and some skills in
these first year or two, and now, when X company comes out and
they're going to give me notonly the 10 percent but but but
(39:04):
a 15 percent bonus coming withit, oh, I'm leaving.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
But don't we just create a workforce of
mercenaries?
Does everybody just kind ofprostitute it out here for next
year?
Speaker 1 (39:14):
You do, which is why I think for me, what I have done
in the last probably the last10 years of my career is I've
really been a promoter ofgetting the return on your
investment.
So, particularly in the rolewhere I have been you know, the
(39:36):
head of HR I have told mymanagement team look, we're the
company that has invested inthis person to get these skills
to be able to do this, to runthis machine or to engineer this
process, or to design this orformulate that.
I wouldn't give that up easily.
(39:58):
And guess what?
We can give them 10%, becauseif I go recruit out, I'm going
to pay 20% more for a newrecruit whom you don't know
their background or you don't.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
And it's going to cost you more to recruit them.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
You're going to trust what they tell you in an
interview and what you read onpaper, and we have to believe
that that'll show up at work.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
It's better to have the devil you know than the
devil you don't.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
That is very true.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
So, so, so, head of HR, I want you to put on your
futurist hat, because one of thethings that's happening now
right, so we had the great, wehad the great was it the great
Resignation, resignation, thegreat resignation?
Then we had quiet quittingright, that was like a big thing
, like nobody ever quiet quitbefore.
Anyway, it was a whole bunch ofpeople that quiet quit in the
(40:42):
2000s, 2010s.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Listen, I did some quiet quitting in the early in
the mid 2000s, I think, when itwas time for me to make some
exits.
Now that you look at what thedefinition is or how to describe
it, I think I did that.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
So that being what it is the new, you know, a new
trend that's happening is whereorganizations are starting to
flatten their workforce, right,so Harvard Business Review had
an article out talking about it.
Recently, amazon talked aboutthe fact that they're going to
get rid of like 13,000 managers.
(41:21):
Last year, meta did the same.
What like, as a leader of HR,having been in some really big
companies, what like?
Let's talk about this because Ihave my own opinion, but I
really want to hear from youLike what do you think that
means, not only for theorganization but for the
workforce?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Well, they just call it right sizing Right.
We're just right sizing theorganization.
It comes down.
Yes, there may be someefficiency and proficiency that
is generated from that, but itcomes down to the dollars and
cents.
It's money, it's cost.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Oh yeah, Amazon said it's going to be like $3.2, $3.8
billion savings or somethinglike that, which tells me they
just made repeated hiring.
That's a lot of people all atthe same time in a very short
period of time.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
It is a lot of people .
I think to me that's wherecompanies have to pay attention
to what they say, because a lotof times companies will get up
and they'll advocate our peopleare first, our people, our
culture is people is peoplecentric.
We are, we value our people.
(42:34):
We have all kind ofpontificated and hyperbole
around people, impact thesepeople's livelihood and
well-being, and we don't prepareor we don't help transition and
we just drop you off and dumpyou.
(42:56):
Where's that same value,where's that same priority?
Where's that same culture thatwas supposed to be
people-centric when it comes tothat?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
It's interesting you should say that I had a client
that were like oh, we're afamily, we're a family and I'm
like, well, what happens whenyou have to lay off the family?
It's basically like you'reamputating a part of your
organization Because familytakes care of family.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Right that part.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
And listen, I get it.
A business is a business andthe business has to make money,
and if it can't make money thenit's not profitable.
So, so there's no.
You might as well be a charity,I get it Like that's not lost
on me, but I do think it'sinteresting how the pendulum is
swinging from copious amounts ofhierarchy to we're going to be
as lean as we possibly can.
(43:38):
It kind of reminds me when wefirst came into the workforce
right, like the pendulumcontinues to switch back and
forth.
What do you think that's goingto mean for the managers who
stay and the employees that haveto now be under this lean
workforce?
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I think that it's a fact of life, right?
So, I think, one we have torealize.
We have to stop acting likewe've never been here before,
right, we've.
I've seen this cycle throughoutmy entire career, so so, so, so
, let's stop acting like we'venever seen an exercise and staff
(44:22):
reductions.
We've never seen exercises inspans and layers.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah, but you've got the Gen Z's new to the workforce
right there now.
And spans and layers, yeah, butyou've got the Gen Z's new to
the workforce right they're now.
This is this first experience,but they've probably seen their
parents and others, you know,get reduced.
Welcome to the world of work.
I can't stand you.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Welcome to life.
I cannot stand you.
Welcome to reality, you are sovocalist.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Here's what I think is going to happen.
Here's my thing right, everyone, you'll get these leaning of
the workforce and the spans ofcontrol.
The number of managers toemployees will double and in
some places triple, and thatwill become even more stressful
for an already stressed outworkforce.
And when you think, in thecycles of performance,
(45:05):
management, discipline and allof that stuff, it'll go untamed.
Because how can I be managed,how do you even know I'm working
on, if you got 30 other peopleto consider?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I think.
Well, I'll say this Well, lookat a public school teacher who
has probably 30, 40 students ina class.
It's not the same, it'sprobably worse.
And they have unruly children.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
They have more performance assessments and more
behavioral issues than we havewith civilized adults, but
typically a teacher giveseveryone in the room 30
assignments that are the sameassignment.
If I'm a program manager with30 direct reports or a project
manager with 30 direct reportsor a project manager with 30
direct reports, and I've gotsomebody working Scrum, I've got
(45:52):
somebody working software, I'vegot somebody working debt, like
everybody's working somethingdifferent, I can't assess them
the same.
So, you trust them to do the jobthat you've hired them to do it
.
How do I know what they'redoing?
That's part of the reason whythe hierarchy shrinking, because
most of the people never knewwhat the people were doing Well.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
at the end of the day , everything has to come and
meet a central point right, sowe're all contributing to some
common goal.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
What happens is the work gets delegated and it
should get reintegrated backinto a bigger goal.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Right.
So how do you then, as themanager?
If you have a goal to reach,you have a task, whatever that
might be how do you know if thattask has been accomplished or
that goal has been reached?
Everybody has to do their part.
If there's a missing part, youknow where that missing part is
All right.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
I'm going to say this again In all of your work as an
HR leader, you need to tell meall of your managers knew what
your people were doing.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
They may not have known every, down to the dotting
the I crossing the T, down tothe dotting the I crossing the T
.
But you have enough of anawareness so that because, at
the end of the day remember,managers are looking out for
themselves as well they try tomake sure that they're not
getting caught up because youfailed to do something right.
They're going to explain awaywhy you failed to do something,
(47:04):
so they don't get caught up too.
So they're going to make surethat things have to get done.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
I don't think so.
Maybe I don't have as muchfaith in humanity as you do.
Listen, I want to hear fromy'all.
Listen, if you're listening tothis on YouTube, or find me on
Instagram or Facebook.
I want to know how many of youknow that your manager has no
clue of what you do Like, evenif you worked your goals up
right now.
Clue of what you do Like evenif you wrote your goals up right
(47:30):
now, they would have no way tocheck it.
They wouldn't even know how youdo your work.
I want to hear that Like.
I've experienced some of that,not in some ways personally, and
once I experienced it one timeearly in my career, when I was
working in Jersey.
I was like never again and Imade it a point to give my
manager weekly reports of what Iwas doing, because what you're
not going to do is never knowwhat I'm talking about so that
you could talk about it to otherpeople.
(47:50):
So I made a point to inform myleader.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
But I have also witnessed firsthand in several
different industries wheremanagers are like, yeah, I don't
know what they do, or peopleknew that their manager didn't
know what they did Personally mymanagers have not necessarily,
again, they've not known everyspecific detail, every movement,
(48:18):
every individual action I'vetaken, but they've known enough
of the high level to know, tohave an awareness and an
understanding so that ifsomething did come back to them
they weren't caught off guard.
Now, part of that to me is onthe responsibility of the
employee.
I agree At least to your point.
(48:39):
You were sending updates orsomething, weekly reports, so
that they at least knew thatI've only had, I think, maybe
two managers, but one that I canremember where specifically I
did that with this individualand, to be honest with you, I
did it out of spite.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Wait a minute.
Why were you being spiteful?
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Because this individual, they wanted to come
to me to tell me that I, youknow, hadn't done some things,
or, or, or.
What have you only to realize?
Oh, he actually did do it, didit very well, and now that
manager is getting the glory forwhat I did.
That's awesome.
(49:20):
So I said, since you want toact this way, let me show you
what it really looks like.
And so I made.
I made sure that they were veryinformed on a weekly basis,
creating a whole template sothat they would see and I
emailed it to them on Fridays, Ithink, either Friday afternoons
or Friday evenings as to what Iaccomplished that week.
(49:41):
And eventually they gotoverwhelmed with that and they
stopped asking and they stoppedwanting it and they started
trusting me to do the job thatthey had hired me to do.
You're paying me at a certainlevel.
You're hiring me at a certainlevel.
Trust me to manage, trust me tolead.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
I agree.
I agree with you and, from anHR perspective, I know I have
been working with directors andprogram managers who like like
oh yeah, that's Bob, but I'mreally not sure, and we've had
to either discipline the leaderor coach them because they
weren't aware of what the personwas doing.
And I expect that, as we seethis flattening, we're going to
(50:20):
see a surfacing of leaders beingoverwhelmed in a season where
they're already overwhelmed.
It's possible Because we don'thave.
One of the things is, when wewere coming up, we had managers
whose job, their only job, wasto manage.
They weren't working managers.
I have yet to come across manyleaders who their only job is to
(50:42):
lead.
They have both a job and theyhave to manage the people and I
think they're going to continueto be overwhelmed and that's
going to cause the workenvironment, the culture and
even people's developmentopportunities to be stunted,
because they'll only reach forthe people they know.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Isn't one of the arguments of flattening?
We're going to streamlineprocesses.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Oh yeah, they want to be more agile.
We're going to be agile.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
It's going to make communication trash everything
is going to be so much moreeasier to do right, that's what
so if that's the case, thenshouldn't it be easier to manage
people?
Speaker 2 (51:20):
I don't.
You guys tell me what you think.
I don't agree.
I think that I think this guynamed elliot jack, who's really
the father of organizationaltheory on hierarchy right.
His theory is there's anyorganization needs no more than
eight levels.
If you have more than eightlevels, you have too many
because each level has a varyingdegree of accountability.
(51:41):
That adds difficulty and has alevel of thinking outward right.
So a level eight CEO of likecompany, like you know, the big
boys like Microsoft or whatever,you've got to think you know
generations out to be ahead ofwhat's coming, whereas if you're
a level four manager, you'vegot to be able to manage.
You know groups of people.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
And these eight levels, this is from the
employee at the lowest levelwhich is doing tactical Yep.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
And so if you look at the lowest, level which is
doing tactical yep, and so ifyou look at the military there,
his argument is there'sgradations but there's solid
levels of like.
If you're level one, you'redoing day, you know in, in and
out work.
It's just you take an order,you do the order.
You take an order, you do anorder and you have very little
latitude.
And if you got more than eightlevels, I say, yeah, you, you're
probably doing too much, but Iexpect that it's going to have
(52:33):
some pain before it gets better,have you?
Speaker 1 (52:36):
ever seen one that didn't.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Shut up.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
For me.
I'm just very practical andpragmatic about it.
I don't argue that, whateverthe business came to and said
the reasons why they came to saywe need to flatten, okay, I'm
trusting that there's probablysome legitimacy in it.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
I'm more suspicious.
I'm always suspicious, but Iwould say that at the end of the
day you said it and I agreewith you, and I think I've said
it too where you have toadvocate both for your work
package and for your career,right, you have to be in charge
of that.
So I asked for letters and Ihave a few, so I'm excited.
Thank you so much for all ofyou who have submitted, and this
(53:22):
letter is from Elise J, who's agraphic designer from Miami.
Hey, elise, dear, so your BossSucks.
I don't even know why.
My boss asked for feedback.
She says she wants opencommunication, but the second
anyone actually gives hersuggestions.
She takes it as a personalattack and, honestly, it's
exhausting.
A few weeks ago we were in ateam meeting and my coworker,
(53:44):
jake, casually suggested that wemake a small tweak in our
design flow, literally just away to make a file sharing easy.
Before he could even finish hissentence, she cut him off with
oh so you're saying my systemdoesn't work?
Jake just blinked, thenawkwardly backtracked no, I just
thought, maybe because I'vebeen doing this for years and
(54:07):
I've been doing it this way foryears.
She shuffled and she huffed andcrossed her arms and it works
fine, she said.
And so that was that.
Nobody else spoke for the restof the meeting.
And this isn't new.
If we bring up challenges, shewaves them off and says it's
just how the industry is.
If we suggest something new,she acts like we're calling her
(54:27):
incompetent.
If someone pushes back, shegets defensive and finds a way
to subtly ice them out of ourfuture projects.
At this point we all just nodand smile and go along with
whatever she says, which sucks,because I love my work and my
actual team, but the environmentis stifling.
We're supposed to be a creativeteam, but how are we supposed
(54:48):
to innovate when speaking upfeels like we're stepping on
landmines?
So what do you do when thebiggest roadblock is
communication?
What should I do?
How do I fix the psychologicalsafety when my leader is the
problem?
Speaker 1 (55:04):
It's a good question in that situation.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Quit.
You could, I mean't speak up,you could.
And this is for me this is aripcord moment, because if you
can't speak up and you can't doyour if and it's it sounds like
the graphic designing is usuallygroup it's a group, project,
right, it's a group.
And if you can't go to anyoneelse to share what's happening,
(55:34):
to figure out how to influenceher, then yeah, I'm just
quitting.
As a reaction, I'll say thisone who else does she listen to?
Who else influences her thatyou may be able to befriend, get
alongside, build an ally with,that can lean on her in a way
that you can't.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
The other thing I think I'm hearing in that letter
is it sounds like in theexample she gave, the suggestion
was brought up in a groupsetting.
I don't know if the managerwould be different if the
suggestions were broughtone-on-one.
Okay, and that way it gives heran opportunity to think through
(56:17):
it and because sometimes whenyou have to respond in the
moment, you know you may youdon't have an answer sometimes,
right, and you may want to thinkthrough.
Jake, I think that's theco-worker that gave the file
sharing suggestion.
You may want to have some time.
Let me think through what Jakehas suggested, and I need maybe
(56:39):
more than a moment when we're inthis meeting together or
something like that, so maybemaybe approaching the manager
one-on-one.
The other thing to do is alsocollectively, if you all stand
behind an idea An intervention.
(57:01):
Absolutely, and do so.
And guess what?
Sometimes these managers needto be taught lessons too, right?
Ooh, okay, shady say it, and Ithink that there's power in
numbers.
So band together and supportone another.
If you all support Jake's filesharing suggestion idea, then
(57:25):
all 10, 12, five, whatevernumber of you all in the group
raise your hand and say wesupport it.
We think it will work.
Speaker 2 (57:32):
I like that and I think-.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Give us a trial period.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
So I think let's first identify what's going on
here.
Your leader, for whateverreason, is, I'm going to say an
insecure, she's insecure aboutsomething.
I think you have a point in.
I had a leader that, like you,never wanted to look wrong in
any public setting, and so if wehad any recommendations, we had
(57:57):
to give it to her in writingbeforehand to say have you
considered?
And it was always a reallypassive way, and she ended up
having to chew on it for likedays because she was more of a
person who liked to kind of takeher homework home and do it
herself and then come with afull solution as if she had done
it herself.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
Now the whole you know, come up with a solution as
if I had done it myself.
Piece.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
I like it, but if it gets you to where you need to go
.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
But I do understand, because I am also someone who
needs to.
Sometimes I need a little timeto digest and process and come
back now, but I'm also one thatwill give you full credit for
your idea and what you've done.
I'm not going to take that fromyou.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
But I do think.
But if she's if she, I wouldimagine, I'm going to assume if
she's not going to take feedbackin person, in group setting,
I'd first try it one-on-one, I'dsecond try it in writing.
That way you can at least get aresponse in writing and if it's
, you know, really out of pocket, you can go to HR and then
(59:12):
again.
Speaker 1 (59:12):
Sometimes you have to let them manage.
Teach a manager a lesson.
Let them trip over their ownfeet facts.
Let her continue with herprocess as she is.
You don't?
You don't argue with crazy.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
No, because you never know how crazy, crazy, doesn't
know how crazy it is, and not tosuggest that the man is crazy.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
So I say that you know, although she might be, but
I say that facetiously.
But my thing is learn when tolet go.
And if you give and put theidea out there, it's out there.
If they want to take it, letthem take it, if they don't, you
move on.
But if it's causing you thatmuch frustration, that much
(59:50):
angst, then I think again,that's when you may have to, to
your point, you may have to makea decision.
Is this the team I want to beon, the manager I want to work
under?
You know, do I need to makesome changes for my own
psychological safety?
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Yeah, I think it also depends on the job, right,
because graphic design is such acreative job and if you don't
have the space as a creative tobe creative, because there's so
much, the vibe is so challenging, I could see where it could be
a little stifling.
Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Yes, and if you don't want your creativity stifled,
then you have to know when to.
You got to know your triggersright, so you got to know when
you need to eat them.
You know what changes you needto make and how that change you
know needs to manifest for you.
So that's how I look at it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
So, Devon, we've had a really robust conversation and
I've really enjoyed it.
So I guess my question to youis you know, when you think
about all of the bad bosses, yousurvived.
What's your one or two gems,nuggets, jewels?
(01:01:01):
You would tell people to thrivein environments that may be
less than desirable for them.
Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
I think the first thing is to recognize that your
career is your career.
It is no one else's, it is notthe organization's, it is not
your manager's.
It is yours and you can dependon them if you want to, if it
makes sense, or you can leveragethem all as resources to help
(01:01:37):
you manage your career, todevelop your career.
The organization is there toprovide a job and hopefully that
job comes with experiences thathelp to build your career.
But you own it all.
So make those decisions foryourself.
You know whether it's time,location or whatever it might be
(01:01:57):
.
Figure that out for yourself,because a lot of times some of
the employee issues we get arebecause they want somebody else,
they want HR to figure it outfor them.
Facts and I can't do that foryou.
One of the things I cannot dofor you is think for you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
You know it's interesting.
You should say that too,because I feel like both
managers and employees want usto play roughly sometimes.
Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
They do.
Now I will tell you that mypersonal employee relations
philosophy is I'm pro-employeeuntil management shows me
otherwise.
So when they come in the roomand I'm listening, I'm hearing
both sides, but unless themanagement can show me that this
employee indeed is wrong, orwhat have you, I'm sending y'all
(01:02:44):
back out.
You two resolve this and fixthis.
And manager, listen to whatyour employee is telling you,
because if you don't, this isgoing to show back up on you,
and so that's how I look atthings.
Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
So it's interesting, having not done a pure labor
role.
I worked in a lot of differentlabor spaces but I never had
that accountability for labor.
When employees came to mearguing or fussing about their
manager, my first response iswell, what did the leader say
when you told them that youdisagreed?
And more often than not I foundpeople were not trying to have
(01:03:17):
that smoke, they weren't tryingto have those hard conversations
and so I would say.
I would add to that like, yeah,like one.
Own your career, but also Isaid it before own your conflict
.
Know when you need to have aconflict.
That's going to better therelationship so that you can
teach people how to treat you.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
I'll tell you a book that I have had to pull off the
shelf because it has some goodtemplates to follow Crucial
Conversation.
You know that's my favorite.
I've had to pull that off theshelf when I've had to, as a
manager, do performancediscussions because part of it
(01:03:55):
was I needed to be direct, Ineeded to be assertive, and I
did not want to hurt theperson's feelings.
I did not want to be comeacross or be viewed as
disrespectful or anything likethat, and so I needed something
to help guide me through thoseconversations.
That book and even when youGoogle online, I think you can
(01:04:16):
find some templates and thingslike that has been helpful to me
to help me write out an actualscript or talking points for
having those types of as we call, hard conversations.
So I would encourage people tobuy that book, to read it,
peruse it, focus in on thetemplates.
Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
And practice.
I would say practice right.
So.
Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
I did that.
I actually did that once.
I practiced it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Having conflicts.
You shouldn't be trying tomaster conflict.
While you're in a conflict, youshould try to figure out and
determine and outline okay, whatare some previous conflicts
I've had, what would I've done,and maybe even find somebody to
role play with, like all rightnow.
This is the kind of person theyare.
I need you to respond like thisso that I know how to respond
(01:05:02):
appropriately in the moment andkeep my cool, because it's like
riding a bike it's gonna lookugly at first, but after you get
it it'll be smooth sailing.
Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
But you got to start with the pedaling and putting
your feet on the pedals andtrying to at least engage in the
conflict until you get yourmuscle up the other thing, too,
that I hope people can be, hopepeople can be perhaps receptive
(01:05:31):
or accommodating to, is torealize that people will have
reactions, and sometimes thosereactions won't be pleasant.
And as long as they're notviolent or threatening or
harmful in some way, sometimesyou have to allow the person to
have the reaction right.
One of the things that I thinkI learned and I don't, and it
may have been a part of theCrucial Conversations type of
(01:05:53):
teachings or something withperformance management, I
believe, along the years youknow where a person may start
here, but they're going to comeback around and they may come
back and tell you hey, you knowI apologize or I didn't mean to
come across that way, I wasfrustrated.
They'll help, you know, explainto you why they responded to
(01:06:15):
the way that they did, so thatyou too can then go off and fix
those things.
Now again, you don't have tosubject yourself to people's
poor behavior either.
So you know, just again, aslong as it's not harmful, it's
not violent or life-threateningin any way, if you can tolerate
(01:06:35):
that you know once, I hope thengive them the space to have that
reaction, because you knowsomeone may cuss you out at work
, someone may say something youdon't like.
They may throw shade, as theysay.
They may read you, as they say,they may stand on business.
I hope their business is finewhen they're standing, but you
(01:06:58):
know in that moment, you know aslong as you know again, it's
not harming you or hurting youand you guys can come back and
have, hopefully, a reasonableconversation Because at the end
of the day, remember, this ispeople's livelihood and their
well-being, and I'm not quick tosnatch that from somebody
because there's others that areprobably dependent on that.
(01:07:21):
Again, I grew up in ablue-collar town in a union
family.
I was dependent on mygrandparents and my mom and all
them going to work every day.
I know that's right and I'vereaped the benefits of them.
You know having to deal withsome tough, terrible management
situations.
Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
I know that's right.
I'm a Teamsters baby myself.
Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
Teamsters local 830 from.
Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Philadelphia.
Yes, sir, well, that is all ourtime.
You understand, he's just local.
You understand?
830 from Philadelphia.
Yes, sir, well, that is all ourtime.
Devon, it has been absolutely apleasure to have you on the pod
.
Thank you, appreciate you,appreciate you, listen.
We hope you've enjoyed thisTune in next time and we're
excited to have you like, shareand follow.
Also, check us out on yourwebsite.
We want to hear your stories,just like Elise.
(01:08:08):
Thanks, elise J, again fromMiami, for sharing your story.
And remember, don't let yourboss suck the life out of you.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom or, if you'd
(01:08:28):
like to be a sponsor, email usat info at thenatalieparkercom.
He said my mother would call you an effing moolie.
And he said that to me and Ilooked at him and before I knew
it, I said to him I would havecalled your mother an OB.
Or he had a copy of his resumeand he said you see the resume.
I said yes.
He said that's who I competeagainst.
He said the better this pieceof paper becomes, the better I
(00:22):
have to become.
And in that moment I took mycareer development, my career
management, into my own hands.
I stopped, if you will,depending on others or expecting
others to contribute to that insome way.
All right, all right, we'reback.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
This is season two of so your Boss Sucks.
Now what?
I'm Natalie Parker and I'm yourhost.
I'm excited today because I amhere with my friend, my homie
for 20 plus years, the Mr DevonStevens.
Hello, Devon.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Hello Ms Parker, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'm excited.
I'm excited because not only ishe my friend, but he's also my
brother, having gone toMorehouse, me going to Bennett,
fellow partner in the HRtrenches.
So we're going to talk allabout HR this season, this
entire season, and I'm excitedto have you.
Why don't you share with us,like let's talk about your first
(01:34):
really bad job?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
My first really bad job.
Well, first, thank you forhaving me.
I appreciate this.
As you know, this is my firsttime doing something like this.
He's going to kill me later,totally outside of my comfort
zone.
But anything for my friend, mysister, correct?
Oh, yes, so my first terriblejob.
I would probably argue that Ihaven't had many terrible jobs.
(02:03):
I've had some really goodlearning experiences from some
terrible moments on the job.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
And I think probably one of my first ones was
graduating college, had gonehome for a year and then got
what I call my real job, startedmy career in HR in the summer
of 2001,.
When I met you for the firsttime, actually, and I was
(02:32):
working for a gentleman who wasvery colorful, had a very
dynamic character about him, alot of personality, dynamic
character about him, a lot ofpersonality, and I remember he
(02:53):
would always give me a hard time.
I used to call him my tourmentor, if you will, as I spent
on being a mentor.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Your tour mentor.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yes, he would torment me on purpose.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Like trial by fire.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Trial by fire.
He wanted a reaction.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
What was the job, though?
What was the?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I was in a corporate leadership development program
in the human resources function.
It was a rotational, meaning Iwas to spend a year in each of
my assignments, so thisparticular year was my first
year.
It was in labor relations.
It was in South Jersey.
(03:29):
I had relocated from theMidwest, and so I was long ways
from home, in an area unfamiliarto me, didn't know anyone.
I had the benefit, though, ofmy best friend being over the
river in Philadelphia, so thatwas some comfort.
(03:50):
But I was new and learning howto live on my own, manage pay
bills, be responsible, be anadult.
And so here I am in this man'soffice and he is giving me my
first terrible moment, and he'ssaying you know, my mother would
(04:11):
probably call you an effingmovie.
Oh, no.
And I'm looking at him.
He said that he said it to meIn the office, in the office.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Not in the parking lot.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
No, we were at work, we were in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
He said say this again.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
He said my mother would call you an effing moolie
and I did not know what that was.
I later learned I guess it hassome associations with an
eggplant and the color black andthings like that.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So he was Italian.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yes, and I believe old school Italian.
Okay, and he said that to meand I looked at him and before I
knew it I said to him I wouldhave called your mother an OB.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
He just looked at me, but wait a minute, y'all are
both in hr just exchanging slurs.
Yes, at that moment don't dothis at home children.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, I don't, I don't encourage.
But at that moment I think thatI was not um paying attention
to the fact that we worked inhuman resources.
I was paying attention to thefact that this man just called
me out of my name and the shockand the disrespect, I think,
took me off guard, and so Ithink there was this reaction
(05:37):
and I realized that that's a lotof what he would do.
He would do those littletriggers just to get a reaction
out of me.
I think it entertained him insome ways Until eventually, one
night I remember I left work,mad at him around six o'clock or
something.
I left work and I went home andI literally sat on my couch in
(05:58):
front of the TV.
I never turned the TV on and Isat there fuming, mad, mad.
I think.
I probably cursed him and saidall kinds of things and was
ready to quit and go home.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
He said worse things than the bully thing.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I'm sure, I'm sure, do you remember?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
what he said to send you in this space where you're
just sitting in front of him.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I think he probably said something questioning my
capability or my work orsomething like that.
I'm not quite sure, because alot of times it would often be
more character, you know,assassination type things or
just being nasty, just becauseyou know.
(06:39):
And I think, like I said, itwas to get a rise out of.
Yeah, and I remember sitting onthat couch mad and then
eventually, somewhere around 10,30, 11 o'clock, I said why am I
sitting on this couch mad bymyself If he's at home?
And he drank.
He told me he would drink aglass of red wine every night.
(06:59):
I said he's probably drank hisglass of red wine, enjoyed his
family and going to bedpeacefully.
Why am I mad?
And I don't have anybody elseto be mad with me.
I need some company if I'mgoing to be mad, because it's no
fun doing this by yourself.
Let's commiserate.
And so I realized that I'm notgoing to let him get me anymore,
(07:21):
I'm not going to let himtrigger me or get those rises
out of me anymore, and so I kindof learned how to just look at
him and either say nothing orsmile when he would start
cutting up.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So why didn't you report him Like, why didn't you
go tell somebody else like he'sso out of pocket?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
You know that's a good question, I think.
Being young in my career, beingaway from home, as he would do
other things to teach me andexpose me to things, I remember
(08:13):
one time that he took acolleague and I to New York City
, took us to the Statue ofLiberty and he took me to my
first dinner with a live operasinging, and I had been exposed
to, you know, different types offood calamari, first time I
(08:33):
ever had bruschetta and allthose types of things.
And whenever we would deal withbecause this was a labor
relations rotation we would dealwith the union, he made it a
point to give me space in placeto be seen and to be heard, and
so I think I tended to overlookor minimize those moments where
(08:53):
he was doing what he would bedoing just to pick him in, you
know, take me off of his own,probably self-enjoyment.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
But do you think, because labor relations can be a
bit of a tough role, right?
Do you think some of that wasto toughen you up because you
did have to deal with the laborunion?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Probably so, and I can imagine that being the case,
because a lot of times you doend up in some very contentious,
confrontational type momentswith management and union,
particularly when you disagreeon contractual terms or
different actions that may havebeen taken.
(09:35):
But I had also grown up in ablue collar unionized town.
I grew up in the Midwest, so Igrew up in the Metro Detroit
area and in the UAW families, soit wasn't like I was unfamiliar
with that.
I watched my grandparents andother members of my family get
(09:55):
up and go into plants andfactories to build cars and so
forth on a daily basis, so Iunderstood that side.
I probably didn't understandthe side of being on the
management team, though.
Right.
So it may have been part ofhelping me build the toughen my
(10:17):
skin you know a little bit, butI never asked him why.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Would you go back and ask Like, because you're not
talking like like.
I've shared my stories witheveryone here and there are
still some people that you know.
I'm glad that I survived it,and if I saw them on the street
while I wouldn't push them infront of a car, I don't know
that I would have the grace tobe like hey, how you doing Right
(10:43):
, but you don't seem to havethat animus.
We talk about this, I probably.
If you read the Bible, I'mprobably more like Peter.
You say something to me.
I'm cutting your ear off.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
You are definitely more of a peacemaker than I am,
I think for the most part, therewere moments where he showed me
more of kindness or care andconcern.
I think he just had a rougharound the edge way about doing
(11:14):
it.
Yeah, and so.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And we're talking 20 years ago.
This is like, not now 24,technically.
Don't talk to me.
I had to say all that.
Nobody asked you that.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Listen, listen, it hit me this year.
I was like, wow, I've beendoing this a long time.
But I think a lot of it alsogoes to how I was brought up, my
maternal grandmother and my mom.
They were very intentionalabout exposing me and my brother
and my cousins to differentwalks of life.
(11:49):
Right, sure, we wear bluecollar, we grew up in, quote,
unquote, the inner city, urbanarea and so forth, and you can
take all of the stereotypes andcharacterizations you want to
put on that as you will, but myfamily was very intentional
about exposing us to all typesof people.
(12:09):
We, you know, with communityservice, we did a lot of
community services, children.
My mom's godmother, part of herparish, her Catholic parish ran
a soup kitchen and so we had tovolunteer and serve the
homeless.
We had to help pack Christmasgifts and you know, we had to
help pack Christmas gifts, andyou know.
(12:30):
And we were part of upper brownprograms, and my particular
upper brown.
We were on a boarding schoolcampus.
So I was exposed, you know,from the from, from, from the, I
guess, lower class to the upperclass, whatever.
However, you want tocharacterize those, those, those
social classes, right, you know, characterize those social
(12:51):
classes right, and so I didn't.
I wasn't quick to just judge,but I was not a fool to not pay
attention to how people treatedyou.
My grandmother also taught meit doesn't take but two seconds,
two and two, to figure, torealize you know a person
(13:12):
sometimes, and so I've paidattention to those things, and
then I also learned how tonavigate and maneuver
accordingly, so that we couldstill have the relationship and
interactions that we needed tohave.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I think there's two things that came to mind for me
that you said that I think isimportant.
One is you mentioned it twiceyou value relationships, and so
that typically dictates how yourespond in situations which I
don't know for me.
Sometimes I'm ready to blow upthe bridge and I'm okay with it.
But and you know, maybe peopleare like you where you're like.
(13:44):
No, I value the relationship.
But I think the other thingthat's really commendable is
your ability to see the threadof doing soup kitchen work and
bringing some of the value intoa really difficult situation.
And I think a lot of times,when we're in really bad
leadership situations withpeople, that we don't look at
the arc of our life to say whatare the tools that we can bring
(14:07):
into the situation to help usnavigate, survive and thrive.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, I've always kind of realized that sometimes
the behaviors you're seeing inanother person you never know
you may exhibit them one dayyourself, right?
And so I try to just be alittle mindful of how I come
across, because I think, inknowing myself, if that button
gets pushed because I'm a verymuch a compartmentalizer and a
(14:43):
suppression type person in orderfor me to keep moving and keep
going, and I know that if youpush that button, whatever
happened two, three years ago,weeks ago, months ago it's going
to come right up in this momentand by the time we finish, one
of us won't be walking out andnot plan to walk out.
So we have to be not onlymindful of the other but be
(15:11):
aware of who you are too, and soI or be aware of what your
triggers might be.
So I think I've tried to payattention to those things as
I've grown up, you know, becauseas a kid I probably would have
been a little bit more explosiveand I probably would have, as
they say, set you straight,right where you stood.
(15:33):
But the kids, they now stand ondead and that business would
have been firm with me.
You understand what I'm saying,but I would have been paying
attention to the fact that nowyou're not a kid anymore, I'm an
adult in a professional setting, and my conduct, I think,
should reflect that.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
And I think that's really sometimes people forget
that you are, it's work rightand how you present is a direct
reflection on you.
People may never see how theleader acts.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
So we've taken kind of account, you and I right, if
we laid our cars together I'malmost certain you had at least
three or four worse leaders thanme right In the arc of your
career.
You've had some reallyinteresting exchanges Like walk
us through kind of high level,like what were some of those
(16:27):
scenarios and how did you kindof with each level?
Because you've risen in yourcareer well, from, you know,
being in the leadershipdevelopment program to being an
executive Right.
So I mean, and at every levelyou've had some kind of
challenge.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Absolutely.
I think, when I look at mycareer, a lot of the assignments
that I've had and not just thework or the task part of those
assignments, but the managementrelationships have been trialed
by fire and I have been burned,gotten some burns and been able
(17:07):
to heal from them along the way.
I think one of my, if you will,worse management experiences
actually was probably one of mymost teachable moments for me.
I remember having a managerthat was very standoffish, not
(17:27):
very communicative, not veryadvisory, not very communicative
, not very advisory, and it justwas a difficult relationship.
And I remember going in andasking for a salary revision and
(17:53):
I went to the individual andsaid, hey, I don't think that my
salary is aligned with thescope of the role that I have.
The role that I have is a lotbigger than what I'm being paid
and so I would respectfully liketo have my salary reconsidered
and did you come with all of theevidence of like.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Here's what I'm doing now.
List of like.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Here's what I'm doing now list Absolutely, and he
himself knew it.
Yeah, Because we went from ateam of I think there may have
been three or four, includingmyself on the business partner
team, down to just two.
It was the lead manager, himand then me, and I'm covering
(18:29):
all of this, included doinghandling all the functional work
with staffing, with comp, withEEO diversity, AAP work.
It was a lot, it was a great job, a lot, as well as having a
small union to also interfacewith, and so it was a lot of
work and I just felt like my paywas not reflective of that.
(18:51):
It didn't line with what Ithought the market was paying
for the caliber of work I wasperforming.
Which, as an HR professional, itis our job to know that Nothing
we're going to deal with on adaily basis is someone coming in
talking about pay, whether theywere paid improperly, properly,
(19:14):
timely, untimely, what have you?
It's always.
You know there's always a payissue coming.
But I remember doing that.
He came back to me.
He was very clear.
He said this is the job that Ihave and the pay that you're
making is what I'm paying for.
It.
Like it or love it, it is whatit is.
(19:34):
Ok.
And that was it.
I said OK.
He then went forward in ourconversation and he said you see
this resume.
I think he had brought a copyof his resume or he had a copy
of his resume.
He said you see the resume.
I said yes.
He said that's who I competeagainst.
(19:55):
He said the better this pieceof paper becomes, the better I
have to become.
And in that moment I took mycareer development, my career
management, into my own hands.
I stopped, if you will,depending on others or expecting
others to contribute to that insome way, and I started to
(20:18):
realize that the dependence Ineeded to change that to using
them as resources, not assources, of what I was doing in
my career, whether it was my payor my assignments and so forth,
and so I kept my nose to thegrind.
I was completing my master's, Ithink during that time I knew
(20:44):
that the company had a paybackrequirement.
I called the tuition assistanceprogram, found out when was the
last day that I would beresponsible or held accountable
for paying back anythingassociated with my master's
degree.
And when I finished my master'sand got past that date, I was
(21:09):
actively interviewing, I found anew position and I effectively
resigned.
And then I went that date I wasactively interviewing, I found
a new position and I effectivelyresigned.
And then I went from there.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Listen, I'm not mad at you.
At the end of the day, you'vegot to own your career and, with
organizations being where theyare, as much as we want to
believe they're merit based,they're also usually not looking
to just give away money, Rightand?
And so one you advocated, Twoyou put you know having, and I
(21:36):
told this story.
I think I told this story tothis group about how I was
denied a good performance ratingand I brought in like this
whole manual of all the things Ididn't like.
Now tell me how I didn'tdeserve more Right and so going,
armed with data, and I tell theteam every, every time.
I tell a group every timedocument everything, because
you're your best defense whenthings fall apart.
(21:58):
It's just important.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
And I'll tell you that, even with to your point of
document everything, it hastaken me years to get to that
point.
I had to learn how to create aspecial email file to push those
things to the side so I couldhave a quick access to the
(22:23):
records, because before I didnot, you know, it took me a long
time to say you need to catalogthat stuff, and I didn't do it.
You need to catalog that stuffand I didn't do it.
And then, when it came time forperformance review time, I'm
scrambling, going througheverything, trying to find the
evidence or, you know, referenceback to this date or this
moment and things of that nature.
So we have to be deliberate.
(22:44):
Be as deliberate with yourselfas you are with others, and I
think that's one of the thingsthat I've learned with HR.
We, as HR professionals, willtake better care of others.
We'll coach and counsel andengineering and finance and all
the other functional groups andbusinesses that we support, but
(23:05):
when it comes for us, we are notgood at it.
We don't give ourselves thesame advice and the same
coaching and counseling, and soI've had to learn how to do that
along along those years, and soyou know good point.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
That's fair.
That's fair.
It's hard.
As a caregiver of people in anorganization, you do have to put
the oxygen mask on yourself.
Let's talk about your role asan HR leader.
So you've seen hundreds ofemployees in different
industries come in and out ofyour office.
When you think about, like, thenumber one complaint that
people have about their leader,what's the theme?
(23:41):
You see, what's the like, thetop three typically it will.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
It has been around and in top three.
So I won't rank the three, I'lljust cluster them.
There's typically an element ofrace, there is an element of
sex and then there is just anelement of dislike or that
(24:13):
disrespect.
Okay, and so I have seen.
Where, you know, a person maycome in and say, well, I feel
that I'm being picked on or myperformance review was not good,
and of course it may be because, you know, I'm the only female
on the team.
They give all of the roles tothe young guys or to the young
(24:38):
white guys, or they only caterto this group, or I hang out
with this friend or that friendor something of that effect, or
I don't socialize after work,and so now I'm being excluded
and disrespected and things ofthat nature.
(25:01):
It is what I have learned notto do, which I think initially
was probably the first reactionwas to argue.
Their perception of theirexperience.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Say that one more time.
You've learned not to.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I've learned not to argue their perception of their
experience, because they'recoming in telling me this is how
I have perceived how I've beentreated.
This is how I this is myreality how I have perceived how
I've been treated.
This is how I this is myreality.
And I think when I first startedearly in my career, being young
, probably a little immature, alittle naive, I was trying to
(25:41):
argue that down, trying todismiss it or to or minimize it
in some way, because I think Iwould feel I would, I would feel
you could feel the, the, the,the, the, the hurt or the,
whatever you know discomfortthey felt.
And I'm trying to know no, maybethat's not what they met.
And here I am trying to thinkfor this manager, and I started
(26:05):
to.
I can't think for them, I don'tknow what they were thinking in
that moment, no more than I canthink for you and how you feel
and how you've been treated.
And so I learned to listen and Ilearned to coach or give some
tips and tools on how they cango back and address it.
And one of the tips that Itypically give is be very
upfront, be very clear, be verydirect and assertive about how
(26:29):
to treat, how to tell them howto treat you and how you respond
to certain things, and so so ifthey are typically someone who
yells and maybe they're yellinghas this aggressive bent to it,
be very clear with them that youdon't respond well to that type
of you know tone and tenor andthat type of communication style
.
You shut off from that.
Because when they now have thatawareness but yet they
(26:51):
persistently or consistentlykeep doing it, then I think we
have a problem.
And I also think sometimes whenyou don't give a person an
opportunity, when you don't tellthem no or don't tell them stop
, or something like that theydon't know They'll keep doing
what they don't know not to do.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's funny you should say that because a lot of
people stay silent.
So I'm now back at your firststory, where you're like I
didn't say a whole lot of thingsto the guy who was calling me
all these little slurs, but nowyour position in your role
coaching others is like no,speak up, right, say something.
I think most people don't speakup because they don't know how.
(27:29):
They don't know how to do itwithout an impassioned and bold
and you know diatribe that makesthem feel like they're about to
be on, you know, the last sceneof glory.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I'd like to believe that.
I used to believe that theydidn't know how.
People know how to speak up forthemselves.
As we talked about pay beingyou know an issue that whenever
your pay is a problem, you speakup very clearly.
Whenever your pay is a problem,you speak up very clearly.
So if you can speak up for yourpay, you can speak up when
someone has offended you ortaken a step too far in your
boundaries or whatever that theymay have crossed with you Speak
(28:02):
up.
Silence perpetuates issues, soyou can't keep silent and then
expect somebody to automaticallychange because they didn't hear
you say that this didn't feelgood or that you did something
wrong to them or you feltuncomfortable.
But the moment that they hearit and you know that you've been
(28:25):
very clear now they'reaccountable for it they're not.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
They're accountable for it.
So but what do you say?
Because you told you said thethree top issues you saw were
race, sex and being excluded ordisrespected in some kind.
To me, all of those situationsare majority, minority.
In some way, shape or form.
Like I am not with them.
I have some level of othernessthat puts me outside of the
(28:52):
sanctum of being in the coolkids, if you will.
So what do you like?
What do you say to the personwho's maybe done some of that?
But either they're beingdeflected or people are
pretending it's not the problem,Like so if I know that you're,
you've got cronyism or nepotismand I didn't get a job, like
(29:14):
because it's hard to prove.
It's hard to prove.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Let's let's assume that a, an HR professional or a
company did the good faith,investigated, addressed the
issue and took some correctiveaction investigated, addressed
the issue and took somecorrective action.
But let's assume that theperson or the issue didn't
change right and it's justpersistent.
(29:40):
Because sometimes thesecultures, these organizational
cultures, are so thick and solegacy it is hard to break them
and they're not going to breakovernight, may not even break in
a year.
You have to realize that youdon't have to stay in that and I
(30:06):
think a lot of times peoplestay in these situations because
one they don't want to putforth the effort to go look for
something new, because thatrequires effort and time and
energy and things of that natureand taking a risk too right.
But you know it's a choice tobe in the organization, it's a
choice to be here.
So sometimes the best thing foryourself is to remove yourself,
so leave Just like you acceptedthe offer.
(30:29):
Resign, so leave, just like youaccepted the offer, resign.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
So it's funny because we talk about often about when
to tell people, when to pull theripcord right, like when's the
time for you to leave, not overpetty differences, not over the
fact that you didn't get yourway in a meeting, but when it's
harming you psychologically oremotionally.
Right, you left because of thewhole pay situation.
(30:58):
Have you ever stayed somewheretoo long?
Like you know what?
I stayed too long.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Actually, yes, I think I have a couple well,
maybe two moments that I canthink of in my career where I
felt like I stayed too long.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And what was hindsight being 2020,?
What were the two or threeindicators that it was like too
long?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Well, the first thing was and I don't want, but it
took me a moment to firstrealize what was my purpose in
being in this particularassignment.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Say it again, that's good.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I had to figure out my purpose.
Why was I, why did I choose toaccept this offer, relocate my
entire life, come to this state,this place, this company, and
do this work with this group?
And once I realized what thatpurpose was, then it was then
time to realize, well, what werethe perspective, things or
(32:08):
actions that I was supposed totake, or accomplishments, or
whatever achievements that Ineeded to make.
And then say, okay, it's timeto go and exit.
And in this particular case, Ithink I realized that my purpose
in that assignment was todevelop others, was to give to
(32:29):
others what I had gotten overthe years, the goodness of what
I had gotten Now.
I'm a strength-based type ofperson, so I will leverage your
strengths to help build you, andI don't necessarily I'm not
going to anchor on where yourquote-unquote weaknesses are or
areas of development.
I think if I highlight yourstrengths, then we can overcome
(32:52):
those other areas and you canperform and do well.
And so I had.
I think my purpose was todevelop the team members, and so
there was one where they neededsome credentials and I needed
to support them as they gainedtheir credentials.
They were in a position and Isaid I remember saying to them
look for the profile of this joband what you're bringing to the
(33:15):
table.
There's a mismatch.
We need to get you somecredentials so that when, if you
ever, decide to leave here oreven grow in this organization,
when you put your paper on thestreet in the market, your
credentials and your work willall line up and it will be easy.
You won't get dismissed becauseyou don't have the education or
you won't get dismissed becauseyou don't have quote unquote
(33:35):
years of experience in somethinglike that.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
And you stay trying to get the person.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Get that person, get another, move them along in
their career.
Get them experiences.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
What did that cost you, though?
Because that's a lot of energy.
I mean, you're getting yourpaycheck, don't get me wrong.
And as a leader you should behelping your team, but you knew
it was time to go.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I did.
As a matter of fact, I knew itwas time to go, probably two
years before the actual time toleave came, but I said I'm going
to stay through these next twoyears.
And what happened is one of theindividuals I think I may have
(34:23):
become even too vested in theirdevelopment too, but one of the
individuals made a decision thatI didn't necessarily see coming
.
Um, and at the time that theymade that decision, um, I should
have said okay, divine, nowyou've done what you were
supposed to do, you havesatisfied this purpose.
(34:44):
Now you need to start lookingfor your opportunity to exit out
.
But I also had a uh,particularly at this time an
actual good boss who would saythings and do things to convince
me to stay, gave retentionbonuses, gave promotions, gave
good increases, gave goodassignments and tasks, and so I
(35:06):
think I got conflicted with thatand in my own- Perfect, like
your next person.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
That's correct and I think that's really important to
say, because a lot of timesorganizations, especially if you
have potential, if you'reconsidered a high potential, if
you're considered a valuable,key player in your organization,
will do things to pacify andsatiate you, right, whether
(35:34):
that's you know degrees orcertificates and training and
all of that's good.
But the real question is areyou growing and is this the best
thing for you?
Right, right, because they cancontinue to kind of, you know,
sedate you into a comfortbecause they love you and they
need you.
But is that the best thing for?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
you.
It's a good question and youknow I am the product of baby
boomers loyalists, and so youknow it was getting an education
, get a good job, stay at thatcompany, retire, collect your
pension and things of thatnature.
But I'm also that firstgeneration.
I think that started to breakaway from that.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, but you and I still probably have more tenure
in most of our second and thirdand fourth jobs than most people
.
So I talk about this in the lastspeeches.
We grew up and it said get goodgrades, go to college and get a
job, not a purpose, notanything else.
Right, the job was the thingyou get, that's it, and you ride
(36:33):
it out until the wheels falloff.
Right, and it's nothing for usto have seen people and come in.
When we came into the workforce, I bet you that first guy was
in there.
25, 30 years, right, that wasreally a lot for us to see.
But now the average tenure inany company is like 3.8 years,
according to the Department ofLabor Statistics.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Two if you're lucky.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And I don't even understand how you get depth
with that, right?
Like I mean, how do you getdepth in a skill set with just
two years?
Right, I think you've got it.
It takes one year to learn it,another year to try to change it
and another year after that tosee what the change happened,
right?
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yes, but I think a lot of times you know when
you're being recruited out.
You know the carrots are alwaysa lot more tastier and a lot
more shiny, and everything, whenthey're in front of you.
And so, whereas you spent two,maybe three years at one company
, they've done all the training,the investment and so forth.
(37:31):
The new company now gets thebenefit of all of that and all I
have to do is give you theactual task and you can write
the codes, you can engineer theassignment, you can HR your way
out of a situation now.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
It's just a different environment.
No, but part of that.
I think we saw it when we werecoming up to where employers
would see people give them more,give them more accountabilities
and not give them the pay Right.
So I'm giving you a whole extrajob or a whole extra
accountability.
That's more significant thanlike just this one extra task.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
But your performance and your skill and your
proficiency did lack extra taskright, but your performance and
your skill and your proficiencydid lack.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, but my point is how many times did you see
where it's like oh, so-and-sohas been in this job and they're
below midpoint by 7%, 8% and wewant to give that?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
oh, we don't give 10% increases but, they deserve 10%
increases in contrast to all oftheir peers, because the
companies aren't willing to dothose shifts and changes to keep
the talent Correct, and so Ithink again that goes to where
the former mentality was I'lljust stay and suffer through
(38:43):
that Right, Whereas today no,Thankfully I've gotten the
education, the training, thecertificates and some skills in
these first year or two, and now, when X company comes out and
they're going to give me notonly the 10 percent but but but
(39:04):
a 15 percent bonus coming withit, oh, I'm leaving.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
But don't we just create a workforce of
mercenaries?
Does everybody just kind ofprostitute it out here for next
year?
Speaker 1 (39:14):
You do, which is why I think for me, what I have done
in the last probably the last10 years of my career is I've
really been a promoter ofgetting the return on your
investment.
So, particularly in the rolewhere I have been you know, the
(39:36):
head of HR I have told mymanagement team look, we're the
company that has invested inthis person to get these skills
to be able to do this, to runthis machine or to engineer this
process, or to design this orformulate that.
I wouldn't give that up easily.
(39:58):
And guess what?
We can give them 10%, becauseif I go recruit out, I'm going
to pay 20% more for a newrecruit whom you don't know
their background or you don't.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
And it's going to cost you more to recruit them.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
You're going to trust what they tell you in an
interview and what you read onpaper, and we have to believe
that that'll show up at work.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
It's better to have the devil you know than the
devil you don't.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
That is very true.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
So, so, so, head of HR, I want you to put on your
futurist hat, because one of thethings that's happening now
right, so we had the great, wehad the great was it the great
Resignation, resignation, thegreat resignation?
Then we had quiet quittingright, that was like a big thing
, like nobody ever quiet quitbefore.
Anyway, it was a whole bunch ofpeople that quiet quit in the
(40:42):
2000s, 2010s.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Listen, I did some quiet quitting in the early in
the mid 2000s, I think, when itwas time for me to make some
exits.
Now that you look at what thedefinition is or how to describe
it, I think I did that.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
So that being what it is the new, you know, a new
trend that's happening is whereorganizations are starting to
flatten their workforce, right,so Harvard Business Review had
an article out talking about it.
Recently, amazon talked aboutthe fact that they're going to
get rid of like 13,000 managers.
(41:21):
Last year, meta did the same.
What like, as a leader of HR,having been in some really big
companies, what like?
Let's talk about this because Ihave my own opinion, but I
really want to hear from youLike what do you think that
means, not only for theorganization but for the
workforce?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Well, they just call it right sizing Right.
We're just right sizing theorganization.
It comes down.
Yes, there may be someefficiency and proficiency that
is generated from that, but itcomes down to the dollars and
cents.
It's money, it's cost.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Oh yeah, Amazon said it's going to be like $3.2, $3.8
billion savings or somethinglike that, which tells me they
just made repeated hiring.
That's a lot of people all atthe same time in a very short
period of time.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
It is a lot of people .
I think to me that's wherecompanies have to pay attention
to what they say, because a lotof times companies will get up
and they'll advocate our peopleare first, our people, our
culture is people is peoplecentric.
We are, we value our people.
(42:34):
We have all kind ofpontificated and hyperbole
around people, impact thesepeople's livelihood and
well-being, and we don't prepareor we don't help transition and
we just drop you off and dumpyou.
(42:56):
Where's that same value,where's that same priority?
Where's that same culture thatwas supposed to be
people-centric when it comes tothat?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
It's interesting you should say that I had a client
that were like oh, we're afamily, we're a family and I'm
like, well, what happens whenyou have to lay off the family?
It's basically like you'reamputating a part of your
organization Because familytakes care of family.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Right that part.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
And listen, I get it.
A business is a business andthe business has to make money,
and if it can't make money thenit's not profitable.
So, so there's no.
You might as well be a charity,I get it Like that's not lost
on me, but I do think it'sinteresting how the pendulum is
swinging from copious amounts ofhierarchy to we're going to be
as lean as we possibly can.
(43:38):
It kind of reminds me when wefirst came into the workforce
right, like the pendulumcontinues to switch back and
forth.
What do you think that's goingto mean for the managers who
stay and the employees that haveto now be under this lean
workforce?
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I think that it's a fact of life, right?
So, I think, one we have torealize.
We have to stop acting likewe've never been here before,
right, we've.
I've seen this cycle throughoutmy entire career, so so, so, so
, let's stop acting like we'venever seen an exercise and staff
(44:22):
reductions.
We've never seen exercises inspans and layers.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah, but you've got the Gen Z's new to the workforce
right there now.
And spans and layers, yeah, butyou've got the Gen Z's new to
the workforce right they're now.
This is this first experience,but they've probably seen their
parents and others, you know,get reduced.
Welcome to the world of work.
I can't stand you.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Welcome to life.
I cannot stand you.
Welcome to reality, you are sovocalist.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Here's what I think is going to happen.
Here's my thing right, everyone, you'll get these leaning of
the workforce and the spans ofcontrol.
The number of managers toemployees will double and in
some places triple, and thatwill become even more stressful
for an already stressed outworkforce.
And when you think, in thecycles of performance,
(45:05):
management, discipline and allof that stuff, it'll go untamed.
Because how can I be managed,how do you even know I'm working
on, if you got 30 other peopleto consider?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I think.
Well, I'll say this Well, lookat a public school teacher who
has probably 30, 40 students ina class.
It's not the same, it'sprobably worse.
And they have unruly children.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
They have more performance assessments and more
behavioral issues than we havewith civilized adults, but
typically a teacher giveseveryone in the room 30
assignments that are the sameassignment.
If I'm a program manager with30 direct reports or a project
manager with 30 direct reportsor a project manager with 30
direct reports, and I've gotsomebody working Scrum, I've got
(45:52):
somebody working software, I'vegot somebody working debt, like
everybody's working somethingdifferent, I can't assess them
the same.
So, you trust them to do the jobthat you've hired them to do it
.
How do I know what they'redoing?
That's part of the reason whythe hierarchy shrinking, because
most of the people never knewwhat the people were doing Well.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
at the end of the day , everything has to come and
meet a central point right, sowe're all contributing to some
common goal.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
What happens is the work gets delegated and it
should get reintegrated backinto a bigger goal.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Right.
So how do you then, as themanager?
If you have a goal to reach,you have a task, whatever that
might be how do you know if thattask has been accomplished or
that goal has been reached?
Everybody has to do their part.
If there's a missing part, youknow where that missing part is
All right.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
I'm going to say this again In all of your work as an
HR leader, you need to tell meall of your managers knew what
your people were doing.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
They may not have known every, down to the dotting
the I crossing the T, down tothe dotting the I crossing the T
.
But you have enough of anawareness so that because, at
the end of the day remember,managers are looking out for
themselves as well they try tomake sure that they're not
getting caught up because youfailed to do something right.
They're going to explain awaywhy you failed to do something,
(47:04):
so they don't get caught up too.
So they're going to make surethat things have to get done.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
I don't think so.
Maybe I don't have as muchfaith in humanity as you do.
Listen, I want to hear fromy'all.
Listen, if you're listening tothis on YouTube, or find me on
Instagram or Facebook.
I want to know how many of youknow that your manager has no
clue of what you do Like, evenif you worked your goals up
right now.
Clue of what you do Like evenif you wrote your goals up right
(47:30):
now, they would have no way tocheck it.
They wouldn't even know how youdo your work.
I want to hear that Like.
I've experienced some of that,not in some ways personally, and
once I experienced it one timeearly in my career, when I was
working in Jersey.
I was like never again and Imade it a point to give my
manager weekly reports of what Iwas doing, because what you're
not going to do is never knowwhat I'm talking about so that
you could talk about it to otherpeople.
(47:50):
So I made a point to inform myleader.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
But I have also witnessed firsthand in several
different industries wheremanagers are like, yeah, I don't
know what they do, or peopleknew that their manager didn't
know what they did Personally mymanagers have not necessarily,
again, they've not known everyspecific detail, every movement,
(48:18):
every individual action I'vetaken, but they've known enough
of the high level to know, tohave an awareness and an
understanding so that ifsomething did come back to them
they weren't caught off guard.
Now, part of that to me is onthe responsibility of the
employee.
I agree At least to your point.
(48:39):
You were sending updates orsomething, weekly reports, so
that they at least knew thatI've only had, I think, maybe
two managers, but one that I canremember where specifically I
did that with this individualand, to be honest with you, I
did it out of spite.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Wait a minute.
Why were you being spiteful?
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Because this individual, they wanted to come
to me to tell me that I, youknow, hadn't done some things,
or, or, or.
What have you only to realize?
Oh, he actually did do it, didit very well, and now that
manager is getting the glory forwhat I did.
That's awesome.
(49:20):
So I said, since you want toact this way, let me show you
what it really looks like.
And so I made.
I made sure that they were veryinformed on a weekly basis,
creating a whole template sothat they would see and I
emailed it to them on Fridays, Ithink, either Friday afternoons
or Friday evenings as to what Iaccomplished that week.
(49:41):
And eventually they gotoverwhelmed with that and they
stopped asking and they stoppedwanting it and they started
trusting me to do the job thatthey had hired me to do.
You're paying me at a certainlevel.
You're hiring me at a certainlevel.
Trust me to manage, trust me tolead.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
I agree.
I agree with you and, from anHR perspective, I know I have
been working with directors andprogram managers who like like
oh yeah, that's Bob, but I'mreally not sure, and we've had
to either discipline the leaderor coach them because they
weren't aware of what the personwas doing.
And I expect that, as we seethis flattening, we're going to
(50:20):
see a surfacing of leaders beingoverwhelmed in a season where
they're already overwhelmed.
It's possible Because we don'thave.
One of the things is, when wewere coming up, we had managers
whose job, their only job, wasto manage.
They weren't working managers.
I have yet to come across manyleaders who their only job is to
(50:42):
lead.
They have both a job and theyhave to manage the people and I
think they're going to continueto be overwhelmed and that's
going to cause the workenvironment, the culture and
even people's developmentopportunities to be stunted,
because they'll only reach forthe people they know.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Isn't one of the arguments of flattening?
We're going to streamlineprocesses.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Oh yeah, they want to be more agile.
We're going to be agile.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
It's going to make communication trash everything
is going to be so much moreeasier to do right, that's what
so if that's the case, thenshouldn't it be easier to manage
people?
Speaker 2 (51:20):
I don't.
You guys tell me what you think.
I don't agree.
I think that I think this guynamed elliot jack, who's really
the father of organizationaltheory on hierarchy right.
His theory is there's anyorganization needs no more than
eight levels.
If you have more than eightlevels, you have too many
because each level has a varyingdegree of accountability.
(51:41):
That adds difficulty and has alevel of thinking outward right.
So a level eight CEO of likecompany, like you know, the big
boys like Microsoft or whatever,you've got to think you know
generations out to be ahead ofwhat's coming, whereas if you're
a level four manager, you'vegot to be able to manage.
You know groups of people.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
And these eight levels, this is from the
employee at the lowest levelwhich is doing tactical Yep.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
And so if you look at the lowest, level which is
doing tactical yep, and so ifyou look at the military there,
his argument is there'sgradations but there's solid
levels of like.
If you're level one, you'redoing day, you know in, in and
out work.
It's just you take an order,you do the order.
You take an order, you do anorder and you have very little
latitude.
And if you got more than eightlevels, I say, yeah, you, you're
probably doing too much, but Iexpect that it's going to have
(52:33):
some pain before it gets better,have you?
Speaker 1 (52:36):
ever seen one that didn't.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Shut up.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
For me.
I'm just very practical andpragmatic about it.
I don't argue that, whateverthe business came to and said
the reasons why they came to saywe need to flatten, okay, I'm
trusting that there's probablysome legitimacy in it.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
I'm more suspicious.
I'm always suspicious, but Iwould say that at the end of the
day you said it and I agreewith you, and I think I've said
it too where you have toadvocate both for your work
package and for your career,right, you have to be in charge
of that.
So I asked for letters and Ihave a few, so I'm excited.
Thank you so much for all ofyou who have submitted, and this
(53:22):
letter is from Elise J, who's agraphic designer from Miami.
Hey, elise, dear, so your BossSucks.
I don't even know why.
My boss asked for feedback.
She says she wants opencommunication, but the second
anyone actually gives hersuggestions.
She takes it as a personalattack and, honestly, it's
exhausting.
A few weeks ago we were in ateam meeting and my coworker,
(53:44):
jake, casually suggested that wemake a small tweak in our
design flow, literally just away to make a file sharing easy.
Before he could even finish hissentence, she cut him off with
oh so you're saying my systemdoesn't work?
Jake just blinked, thenawkwardly backtracked no, I just
thought, maybe because I'vebeen doing this for years and
(54:07):
I've been doing it this way foryears.
She shuffled and she huffed andcrossed her arms and it works
fine, she said.
And so that was that.
Nobody else spoke for the restof the meeting.
And this isn't new.
If we bring up challenges, shewaves them off and says it's
just how the industry is.
If we suggest something new,she acts like we're calling her
(54:27):
incompetent.
If someone pushes back, shegets defensive and finds a way
to subtly ice them out of ourfuture projects.
At this point we all just nodand smile and go along with
whatever she says, which sucks,because I love my work and my
actual team, but the environmentis stifling.
We're supposed to be a creativeteam, but how are we supposed
(54:48):
to innovate when speaking upfeels like we're stepping on
landmines?
So what do you do when thebiggest roadblock is
communication?
What should I do?
How do I fix the psychologicalsafety when my leader is the
problem?
Speaker 1 (55:04):
It's a good question in that situation.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Quit.
You could, I mean't speak up,you could.
And this is for me this is aripcord moment, because if you
can't speak up and you can't doyour if and it's it sounds like
the graphic designing is usuallygroup it's a group, project,
right, it's a group.
And if you can't go to anyoneelse to share what's happening,
(55:34):
to figure out how to influenceher, then yeah, I'm just
quitting.
As a reaction, I'll say thisone who else does she listen to?
Who else influences her thatyou may be able to befriend, get
alongside, build an ally with,that can lean on her in a way
that you can't.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
The other thing I think I'm hearing in that letter
is it sounds like in theexample she gave, the suggestion
was brought up in a groupsetting.
I don't know if the managerwould be different if the
suggestions were broughtone-on-one.
Okay, and that way it gives heran opportunity to think through
(56:17):
it and because sometimes whenyou have to respond in the
moment, you know you may youdon't have an answer sometimes,
right, and you may want to thinkthrough.
Jake, I think that's theco-worker that gave the file
sharing suggestion.
You may want to have some time.
Let me think through what Jakehas suggested, and I need maybe
(56:39):
more than a moment when we're inthis meeting together or
something like that, so maybemaybe approaching the manager
one-on-one.
The other thing to do is alsocollectively, if you all stand
behind an idea An intervention.
(57:01):
Absolutely, and do so.
And guess what?
Sometimes these managers needto be taught lessons too, right?
Ooh, okay, shady say it, and Ithink that there's power in
numbers.
So band together and supportone another.
If you all support Jake's filesharing suggestion idea, then
(57:25):
all 10, 12, five, whatevernumber of you all in the group
raise your hand and say wesupport it.
We think it will work.
Speaker 2 (57:32):
I like that and I think-.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Give us a trial period.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
So I think let's first identify what's going on
here.
Your leader, for whateverreason, is, I'm going to say an
insecure, she's insecure aboutsomething.
I think you have a point in.
I had a leader that, like you,never wanted to look wrong in
any public setting, and so if wehad any recommendations, we had
(57:57):
to give it to her in writingbeforehand to say have you
considered?
And it was always a reallypassive way, and she ended up
having to chew on it for likedays because she was more of a
person who liked to kind of takeher homework home and do it
herself and then come with afull solution as if she had done
it herself.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
Now the whole you know, come up with a solution as
if I had done it myself.
Piece.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
I like it, but if it gets you to where you need to go
.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
But I do understand, because I am also someone who
needs to.
Sometimes I need a little timeto digest and process and come
back now, but I'm also one thatwill give you full credit for
your idea and what you've done.
I'm not going to take that fromyou.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
But I do think.
But if she's if she, I wouldimagine, I'm going to assume if
she's not going to take feedbackin person, in group setting,
I'd first try it one-on-one, I'dsecond try it in writing.
That way you can at least get aresponse in writing and if it's
, you know, really out of pocket, you can go to HR and then
(59:12):
again.
Speaker 1 (59:12):
Sometimes you have to let them manage.
Teach a manager a lesson.
Let them trip over their ownfeet facts.
Let her continue with herprocess as she is.
You don't?
You don't argue with crazy.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
No, because you never know how crazy, crazy, doesn't
know how crazy it is, and not tosuggest that the man is crazy.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
So I say that you know, although she might be, but
I say that facetiously.
But my thing is learn when tolet go.
And if you give and put theidea out there, it's out there.
If they want to take it, letthem take it, if they don't, you
move on.
But if it's causing you thatmuch frustration, that much
(59:50):
angst, then I think again,that's when you may have to, to
your point, you may have to makea decision.
Is this the team I want to beon, the manager I want to work
under?
You know, do I need to makesome changes for my own
psychological safety?
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Yeah, I think it also depends on the job, right,
because graphic design is such acreative job and if you don't
have the space as a creative tobe creative, because there's so
much, the vibe is so challenging, I could see where it could be
a little stifling.
Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Yes, and if you don't want your creativity stifled,
then you have to know when to.
You got to know your triggersright, so you got to know when
you need to eat them.
You know what changes you needto make and how that change you
know needs to manifest for you.
So that's how I look at it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
So, Devon, we've had a really robust conversation and
I've really enjoyed it.
So I guess my question to youis you know, when you think
about all of the bad bosses, yousurvived.
What's your one or two gems,nuggets, jewels?
(01:01:01):
You would tell people to thrivein environments that may be
less than desirable for them.
Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
I think the first thing is to recognize that your
career is your career.
It is no one else's, it is notthe organization's, it is not
your manager's.
It is yours and you can dependon them if you want to, if it
makes sense, or you can leveragethem all as resources to help
(01:01:37):
you manage your career, todevelop your career.
The organization is there toprovide a job and hopefully that
job comes with experiences thathelp to build your career.
But you own it all.
So make those decisions foryourself.
You know whether it's time,location or whatever it might be
(01:01:57):
.
Figure that out for yourself,because a lot of times some of
the employee issues we get arebecause they want somebody else,
they want HR to figure it outfor them.
Facts and I can't do that foryou.
One of the things I cannot dofor you is think for you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
You know it's interesting.
You should say that too,because I feel like both
managers and employees want usto play roughly sometimes.
Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
They do.
Now I will tell you that mypersonal employee relations
philosophy is I'm pro-employeeuntil management shows me
otherwise.
So when they come in the roomand I'm listening, I'm hearing
both sides, but unless themanagement can show me that this
employee indeed is wrong, orwhat have you, I'm sending y'all
(01:02:44):
back out.
You two resolve this and fixthis.
And manager, listen to whatyour employee is telling you,
because if you don't, this isgoing to show back up on you,
and so that's how I look atthings.
Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
So it's interesting, having not done a pure labor
role.
I worked in a lot of differentlabor spaces but I never had
that accountability for labor.
When employees came to mearguing or fussing about their
manager, my first response iswell, what did the leader say
when you told them that youdisagreed?
And more often than not I foundpeople were not trying to have
(01:03:17):
that smoke, they weren't tryingto have those hard conversations
and so I would say.
I would add to that like, yeah,like one.
Own your career, but also Isaid it before own your conflict
.
Know when you need to have aconflict.
That's going to better therelationship so that you can
teach people how to treat you.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
I'll tell you a book that I have had to pull off the
shelf because it has some goodtemplates to follow Crucial
Conversation.
You know that's my favorite.
I've had to pull that off theshelf when I've had to, as a
manager, do performancediscussions because part of it
(01:03:55):
was I needed to be direct, Ineeded to be assertive, and I
did not want to hurt theperson's feelings.
I did not want to be comeacross or be viewed as
disrespectful or anything likethat, and so I needed something
to help guide me through thoseconversations.
That book and even when youGoogle online, I think you can
(01:04:16):
find some templates and thingslike that has been helpful to me
to help me write out an actualscript or talking points for
having those types of as we call, hard conversations.
So I would encourage people tobuy that book, to read it,
peruse it, focus in on thetemplates.
Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
And practice.
I would say practice right.
So.
Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
I did that.
I actually did that once.
I practiced it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Having conflicts.
You shouldn't be trying tomaster conflict.
While you're in a conflict, youshould try to figure out and
determine and outline okay, whatare some previous conflicts
I've had, what would I've done,and maybe even find somebody to
role play with, like all rightnow.
This is the kind of person theyare.
I need you to respond like thisso that I know how to respond
(01:05:02):
appropriately in the moment andkeep my cool, because it's like
riding a bike it's gonna lookugly at first, but after you get
it it'll be smooth sailing.
Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
But you got to start with the pedaling and putting
your feet on the pedals andtrying to at least engage in the
conflict until you get yourmuscle up the other thing, too,
that I hope people can be, hopepeople can be perhaps receptive
(01:05:31):
or accommodating to, is torealize that people will have
reactions, and sometimes thosereactions won't be pleasant.
And as long as they're notviolent or threatening or
harmful in some way, sometimesyou have to allow the person to
have the reaction right.
One of the things that I thinkI learned and I don't, and it
may have been a part of theCrucial Conversations type of
(01:05:53):
teachings or something withperformance management, I
believe, along the years youknow where a person may start
here, but they're going to comeback around and they may come
back and tell you hey, you knowI apologize or I didn't mean to
come across that way, I wasfrustrated.
They'll help, you know, explainto you why they responded to
(01:06:15):
the way that they did, so thatyou too can then go off and fix
those things.
Now again, you don't have tosubject yourself to people's
poor behavior either.
So you know, just again, aslong as it's not harmful, it's
not violent or life-threateningin any way, if you can tolerate
(01:06:35):
that you know once, I hope thengive them the space to have that
reaction, because you knowsomeone may cuss you out at work
, someone may say something youdon't like.
They may throw shade, as theysay.
They may read you, as they say,they may stand on business.
I hope their business is finewhen they're standing, but you
(01:06:58):
know in that moment, you know aslong as you know again, it's
not harming you or hurting youand you guys can come back and
have, hopefully, a reasonableconversation Because at the end
of the day, remember, this ispeople's livelihood and their
well-being, and I'm not quick tosnatch that from somebody
because there's others that areprobably dependent on that.
(01:07:21):
Again, I grew up in ablue-collar town in a union
family.
I was dependent on mygrandparents and my mom and all
them going to work every day.
I know that's right and I'vereaped the benefits of them.
You know having to deal withsome tough, terrible management
situations.
Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
I know that's right.
I'm a Teamsters baby myself.
Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
Teamsters local 830 from.
Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Philadelphia.
Yes, sir, well, that is all ourtime.
You understand, he's just local.
You understand?
830 from Philadelphia.
Yes, sir, well, that is all ourtime.
Devon, it has been absolutely apleasure to have you on the pod
.
Thank you, appreciate you,appreciate you, listen.
We hope you've enjoyed thisTune in next time and we're
excited to have you like, shareand follow.
Also, check us out on yourwebsite.
We want to hear your stories,just like Elise.
(01:08:08):
Thanks, elise J, again fromMiami, for sharing your story.
And remember, don't let yourboss suck the life out of you.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom or, if you'd
(01:08:28):
like to be a sponsor, email usat info at thenatalieparkercom.
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