S2 E4 Test-Drive Your Manager: Avoiding Toxic Leadership featuring Julia Cooper

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Finding yourself stuck with a terrible boss can feel like a nightmare, but what if you could spot the warning signs before accepting the job? In this illuminating conversation with talent matchmaker Julia Cooper, we uncover the secrets to test-driving potential managers during the interview process.

Julia reveals that authenticity has become the true currency of successful workplace relationships. As a recruiter who has placed thousands of candidates throughout her career, she shares insider knowledge on how to identify red flags in leadership styles. From observing how engaged managers are during interviews to paying attention to whether they apologize for tardiness, these subtle cues often predict future behavior.

The discussion tackles today's most pressing workplace challenges, including the post-pandemic tension between remote flexibility and office requirements. One listener's frustration with inconsistent policies prompts practical advice: if remote work matters to you, verify whether your potential manager works remotely—this often determines the team's long-term arrangement. We also address the delicate dance of setting boundaries in a world where technology enables 24/7 connectivity.

Most valuably, Julia provides five essential questions every candidate should ask potential managers: How would you describe your leadership style? How do you keep your team motivated during challenges? How do you set goals and measure success? How do you onboard new team members? What's the most important leadership lesson you've learned?

Remember that in today's job market, organizations should be selling themselves to you just as much as you're selling your skills. Don't be afraid to interview the company while they're interviewing you—your future happiness depends on it.

Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
Share your bad boss story on our website.
Learn more or Book Natalie.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have to put ourselves in a candidate's shoe
and say would we want to waittwo weeks after an interview to
see how it goes?
No, you have someone sitting onthe edge of their chair
wondering like did I do good,Did I do bad?
Are they going to move forward?
No matter what level ofleadership you are, your team is
important to you.
You make and take the time foryour team and because those team

(00:24):
members are getting the jobdone, they're doing what the
company needs to thrive.
So why wouldn't you want topour into that?

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome to another episode of so your Boss Sucks.
Now what?
I'm your host, natalie ReneeParker, and I'm excited today.
Have you ever met someone whois literally born to do their
job?
Like you know that when you metthem, that they were literally
doing the thing that they weremeant to do.
That really pretty much sums upmy next guest.
You see, she recruited me intomy last corporate job, and what

(01:09):
makes it so interesting is, Ifeel like recruiters are the
salespeople of an organization,and the vibe that I get from her
her ability to dissect andunderstand and position people
in roles that fit the companyand the person is just bar none,
and so we call her the talentmatchmaker.
I'm excited to introduce to youmy good friend, julia Cooper.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Hi, natalie, thank you for having me.
What a full circle moment.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, it is.
It is.
I'm excited.
Her bio will be on the webpage.
We'll also make sure you gether LinkedIn information as well
.
So thanks for coming.
Of course, I'm excited.
I really do mind what I said.
Like you are absolutely borrownone one of the best recruiters
I've ever engaged.
Like you just have the talentfor it.
What is what do you think makesa talented recruiter?

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Great question.
In my experience, I feel likethe most successful recruiters
are going to be those who reallyhave a passion for what they do
, right.
So I think that's in actually alot of your roles when you're
working.
If it's something thatnaturally comes to you, that's
great, because essentially, arecruiter is salesperson,

(02:21):
selling you on an opportunityand matching you to an
opportunity that could belife-changing.
So I look at it a little bit asa bigger picture, right, and I
think the passionate recruiterslook at it as a bigger picture.
Not only are we helping anorganization identify top talent
, but vice versa, we're helpinga candidate identify that next

(02:43):
opportunity that could open manydoors.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, the thing that came to me as we were speaking
to was not just the salesportion of the role because you
do sell, right, you're sellingthe company but you were also
really authentic, right I found,not only with me when you're
recruiting me, but when you'rerecruiting my team, right, and
hiring for me.
You were authentic and tellingpeople like, yeah, this is

(03:07):
probably not the role for you ifyou're expecting X and you're
expecting Y, and when I'mcoaching leaders, when I'm
coaching individuals, when I'mcoaching companies, one of the
things I say is that, especiallynow, I feel like authenticity
is going to be the currency ofthis age.
Right Before it was information, before it was all these other
things.
But I feel like authenticity isthe thing, the differentiator,

(03:30):
that's going to help people havereally good work experiences.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yes, absolutely.
And so just to kind ofpiggyback off of that, one thing
that I'm big on doing when I'mrecruiting is A I have to
recruit for an organization Ibelieve in.
If I don't trust theorganization, if I don't see the
vision, if I don't know thevision, I can't sell the company
right.
Because then essentially, I'mmaking up the information.
I don't feel comfortable makingup things.
So it's big for me to reallypull back the different layers

(04:02):
of the organizationunderstanding what the mission
is, the values.
Where are we looking to be infive years?
That makes it a lot easier tosell an opportunity as well as
match a person to an opportunity, right?
So when I'm asking a candidate,where do they see themselves in
five years?
Does it align with theorganization?
If it does, that's a matchright.

(04:22):
And then another piece to it,the latter part, is
understanding my hiring managers.
What type of leaders are they?
So then, when I'm talking to acandidate, I'm seeing, is that a
good match, right?
Or I'm also, too, explaining tothem what type of leadership
they would be walking into.
So it's not a shocker, and thattypically ends up coming into

(04:45):
place itself.
Everything falls into place.
You see how things align or youjust end up identifying that
it's not a good match.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Listen.
I think that is really, reallyimportant and I find it
interesting one the need to havea match because you want to
have people be in roles thatthey like Absolutely Right, but
also knowing when it's not amatch.
Right to have people be inroles that they like Absolutely
Right, but also knowing whenit's not a match, right To say,
like this is not the role foryou.
So Julie and I are going totalk about a gambit of things.
We're going to talk about one.
We're going to talk about theletters.

(05:16):
So we've got letters here andI'm excited about the letters
we're going to talk about lateron.
So stay tuned, because you sentletters and we're going to read
them and Julia and I are goingto wax poetic on what we think
you should do.
We're also going to talk abouther perspective as a recruiter
when it comes to just how dolitmus test, or what I call test

(05:36):
drive your manager right.
So how do you really get a feelfor the organization and the
individual you're going to beworking with?
Because, at the end of the day,everybody is selling their best
selves in an interview.
But what are some of the tipsand tricks you can give us
around how to get the best outof that interview moment,
especially if you're kind of ina sucky boss situation right now

(05:57):
and you don't want to make thesame mistake twice.
But, julia, I first want tostart by talking about your own
experience as an employee of acompany, right, because the
title of the podcast is so yourBoss, that's Now what.
So talk to me about, when youthink in the back of your mind,

(06:18):
your worst boss moment.
What was your?
And I think what I loved.
What you said to me was like,hey, I haven't had a lot of
terrible bosses, but I have hadone experience, so talk to me
about that.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Absolutely.
So yes, as you said, I haven'thad a good amount, but I've had
one, and so I think back to itand I laugh, but in the moment
of course it was not funny inthe moment of course it was not
funny.
So at one of my previousorganizations I was a part of a
TA team that was pretty wellestablished.

(06:51):
It didn't start with all of us,it actually grew over time.
So we started off being two ofus, grew to three, four, five,
six over a quick period of timeand so of course, when you
rapidly grow, there's kind ofthis relationship you form with
one another where it's just like, hey, we're in the trenches
together, yeah, and in therecruiting world we were

(07:14):
doubling the company size eachyear.
So it was a lot of work, a lotof blood, sweat and tears we put
in to growing the organizationand so we had got to a point
where it was time to bring on aleader for our team.
Prior to this new leader comingon board, we were reporting
directly into a senior executive.
So there was a little bit of agap there.

(07:37):
We had that leadership, but notreally as direct as we wanted
it.
That leader, that particularleader, had maybe four or five
departments within HR under her,so there's only so much that
she could give to each team.
So we were actually reallyexcited about this leader.
We're like, oh, we have a wholelist for this person, right?

(07:59):
We can't wait to give them thisidea, even in this area.
Maybe he'll be able to go inand speak on behalf of us and
really support us in these areas.
So we were definitely excited.
Well, have you ever had a bossor a new leader that you're
excited about and then they comein like a bull in a china shop?

(08:20):
It's just like you were notready.
So his first day started andagain we were very excited.
We didn't know much about him.
So on the first day we'relearning more and more.
That first week learning more.
What we quickly started toidentify was his discomfort.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
He wanted like.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Um, he wanted like discomfort, discomfort, how
discomfort.
And he realized, um how closewe were as a team and he was
coming in as a new leader.
I'm not sure if this was thefirst experience for him coming
in to an established team, um,but it was almost like he didn't
um take the steps to getting toknow us as a team and see how
we work before he implementedthings that he wanted.

(09:11):
He kind of came in ready toimplement the things that he
wanted and also he skipped thestep of getting to know us
individually which is, you know,interesting?
Yeah, so I just remembermeetings happening.
And so again, our prior leaderwas big on asking us questions.

(09:33):
She welcomed us askingquestions.
She also welcomed us to beinvolved in different things and
areas of the business.
That was something he was notused to and that was very clear.
So when we would have ourmeetings and we would ask
questions, he didn't take it aswe were being inquisitive and

(09:53):
wanting to understand.
He took it as we were notfollowing his lead or we were
not accepting of his decisions.
And that was the first strawthat broke the camel's back, in
the sense of he.
From there it went downhill.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
OK.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
So I remember one meeting we had as a team and
someone had asked him a questionagain.
More so, being inquisitive, hetook it as pushback and he said
let me tell you all something Iam leading this train in a
certain direction and if you alldon't like the direction in
which I'm leading this train,you can jump off.

(10:33):
Okay, that's when I just kindof was, like, all right, well,
there's nothing else I can say.
Nothing else I can say to himand feel comfortable, right when
we wouldn't be going back andforth, it would be more of so I
probably would be targeted.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
So there was no give and take.
He wasn't listening to anyfeedback.
Was he helping with any of thework either?
No, no, so another piece, sohe's just kind of like a drill
sergeant just come in.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Absolutely, and this is how we could tell he was very
uncomfortable, because within acouple of weeks we were hiring
for a recruiter and he hadbrought in two team members from
his previous organization.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
So he's feeling fragile and he's outnumbered, so
he brings in people that he'scomfortable with, absolutely
Basically saying I don't knowwho y'all are, but I know them.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yes, yep, and essentially because he hadn't
formed a relationship with us,didn't involve us in the
recruitment process of our newteam members, mind you, coming
into a team that's alreadyestablished.
So it's kind of like, how do yourecruit for our team when you
don't even know our team?
It's kind of how it felt.
But he's bringing on teammembers that we don't know

(11:49):
anything about, and so that wasa little bit of a strange
experience because in learningthat we found out one of them
was essentially overqualified,right.
So of course, as a recruiter,we're like red flag.
You know we're bringing someonein with managerial experience.
Why would they want to just bea talent acquisition recruiter,

(12:27):
leadership opportunities and hewas on a path to leadership
which is bypassing other teammembers on the team who
expressed, you know, an interestin leadership and who had work
to get there.
So that also created some otherturmoil.
It was just a lot of disconnect.
It felt as though, you know, hewas bringing in people to then
replace us it felt as though youknow he was bringing in people

(12:48):
to then replace us.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
So I heard fragility.
So fragility being like someonebeing insecure and fragile
about a situation.
Right, so you've got that.
You know his insecurity.
It sounds like a bit ofcronyism, right, you've got also
being alienated because he'sreally not talking to you, and
then him being an authoritarian.
So what did you and the teamdecide to do?

(13:11):
How did you even handle that?

Speaker 1 (13:13):
So I'm not sure if this would be the best advice in
all scenarios.
However, we were very our teamwas very close to our previous
leader who was a seniorexecutive.
Because we had again grown theorganization, we had to see how
things work out.
We did do like a new leaderintegration kind of program or

(13:50):
walkthrough with him.
Even in that it was still verymuch so focused on that leader.
Did I facilitate that?

Speaker 2 (13:58):
You did, you did, I was like that sounds vaguely
familiar.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yep, you did, and the focus was on that leader and we
were still like there is nodesire to get to know us as a
team, but we still foughtthrough it.
We were just like I mean, we'regoing to.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
I mean it's hard because you're virtual right
this is a smack dab in themiddle of COVID, absolutely
Right and you havepre-established relationships.
So the thing I tell you all is,if you're in this situation,
especially if you don't know theperson, do what you can to try
to have conversations thataren't work related at some

(14:38):
point to try to lessen theirdefenses Would you agree with
that, absolutely yes.
Yeah, he still is a bit of apill and I would recommend
trying to at least lessen thedefenses of the other individual
.
But I you know sometimes itdoes require you skipping leader
you have going above their headto get the kind of attention

(15:00):
you need to alleviate the painthat you have.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Absolutely, and so you know, I think, in my view of
the situation, we had tried ourhardest to give him as many
chances or as much grace aspossible.
Right, because he came fromanother organization that was
just set up, completelydifferent, and so there's a

(15:22):
change there for him as well.
But in that over time you couldtell he wasn't coming in to try
to understand this organization, how we function and how he can
best lead in it.
He came in wanting to change it, and if we weren't in alignment
with the changes he wanted, hewas, we could hop off, we could

(15:42):
jump off you know it's funnybecause there's changes he
wanted, he was, we could hop off, we could jump off.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
You know it's funny because it's twofold that I've
seen where a leader like thatwill be told by the executives
that hire him that they need tochange.
So you never know if they'vebeen given an agenda that
they're trying to plow to.
But I think the biggest gaphere and if you're a leader, a
new leader, I'd really recommendthis right, there's a book
called the First 90 Days thattalks about before you change

(16:09):
anything, figure out what'sthere.
And I know, based on what'shappening popularly, that may
not be the course of action thateverybody wants to do, but you
got to figure out what you'rebreaking before you break it,
because you don't know howvaluable it is before you break
it.
Figure out what you're breakingbefore you break it, because
you don't know how valuable itis before you break it.
And so understanding what'shappening in the organization,
the kind of talent you have, thecapability they have, the

(16:30):
experience and the history thatthey have in the organization,
can really benefit you, and Ifound a lot of folks that come
in often don't have enoughcuriosity and learning
orientation to even ask thosequestions.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, yeah, and that's funny you said that
because I never thought of itfrom that point of view right,
the direction that that leadercould have been given, which
could have played into how theywere navigating.
But I think it's important,like you said, to come in and
look at current state, right,like, is it broken?

(17:03):
Before I go in and fix it.
Maybe there's some areas thatare great, some areas that do
need fixing, and the previousleader didn't understand that,
right, they weren't in the weedsof things to be able to
understand what is truly goingon, and they didn't necessarily
have that functional skill seteither.
Exactly, yes, very true, and soit was to the point where, at

(17:25):
the end of the day, I'm going todo my job.
I just, you know, I am OCD whenit comes to my job, and we got
bills to pay and we got bills topay.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Do your job.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yes, so I'm going to do my job.
That did not affect myperformance, but what it affects
was my happiness.
Coming to work, I was no longerexcited to recruit for this
company.
I was no longer excited aboutmy job, and it had nothing to do
with my career growth.
It had nothing to do with therelationships I had already

(17:55):
formed.
It had all to do with me beingunder a leader I was not aligned
with, nor did I trust.
At this point, I'm like is hetrying to get rid of me If I say
something wrong that I don'tintentionally mean to say wrong?
Am I going to be gone?
Am I going to need to jump offthe train or will he throw me?

Speaker 2 (18:14):
And I think that.
So what you've just describedis the continuum of engagement
and disengagement, because whathappens is you're gung-ho, you
love your job, I'm here, I'mdoing it, I'm doing it, and then
it's like, ooh, that's I don'tlike that, but you're still
trying, and it's like ooh, andyou keep ratcheting back and
what happens is many of us willstart to conserve our energy for

(18:35):
the foolishness, right?
So it's like, okay, I'm goingto do what I need to do, but I
also have to put in my reservetank some space and some
shielding from the foolishness,and that actually takes away
from productivity, and companiesreally, I find, don't do well
with helping employees managethe energy that they have to

(18:58):
take when dealing with badleadership, and that, literally,
is for me, the slippery slopeof disengagement.
I think that's why 87% ofpeople worldwide are on some
continuum of disengagement, likethat's the stat.
You guys, 70, 87% of people onthe planet are in some way
disengaged with their jobs, andso when you think about that,

(19:19):
your story isn't atypical from alot of us, where we're like you
know what?
I'm not feeling, this.
I'm going to do what I need todo so I can get this check.
What I ain't finna do is dealwith this foolishness, and so
thank you for sharing that.
I think that's something weneed to continue to figure out
is how we show up our authenticselves but also protect
ourselves while we're trying tofigure it out Absolutely.

(19:42):
So talk to me as a recruiter,because you've recruited
thousands of people in yournearly a decade career.
What are some of the crazythings you've seen on the
management side when it comes torecruiting.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
When it comes to recruiting, what I've experience
is having to really coach myhiring managers and, mind you,
I've worked with all levels ofleadership when it comes to
hiring, whether that's a managerto a chief executive right or a
C-suite.
And so, to be honest with youyou would be surprised I feel

(20:22):
like I manage up to myexecutives and C-suite more than
I do to my you know frontlinemanagers.
I'm not at all surprised.
Yeah, I don't know if it's moreso they have more hiring.
You know opportunities and sothey're used to the space, they
know how it goes, they're readyto go.
I mean, it's just hard to get myyou know executives to make the

(20:44):
time to recruit, and it's hardbecause it's like you need the
position you have to make thetime to recruit for it.
Plus, don't you want yourcandidates to feel like you're
engaged as a leader, that thereis the first sign to how they're
going to lead you, how involvedthey're going to be?
Are they too busy to take thetime to meet with you, to learn

(21:06):
you, to understand where youwant your career to go?
If they're not giving that timein the interview process, will
they give it throughout yourcareer on their team?
That's a good question to askyourself.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
That's a whole nugget I would have never I think
about.
I have folks that I know thatare currently in executive
searches right now and they'retalking about just how long the
companies have taken to get backto them and lead time and like
an executive search couldanywhere go from, you know,
three months to six months interms of the process and the

(21:39):
multiple hiring.
And I never thought about that,Julie, but that is a solid
point, Like if they are takingtoo long, then they're probably
not excited and on fire.
That's really really a goodpoint.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yes, or they are just not making the time to make
that a priority.
I feel no matter what level ofleadership you are, your team is
important to you.
You make and take the time foryour team and because those team
members are getting the jobdone, they're doing what the
company needs to thrive, so whywouldn't you want to pour into

(22:10):
that?
So it's really coaching them tohave that mindset.
We're all busy, but we can maketime at the beginning or end of
our day to be able to focus onour talent.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, because you have a speed in recruiting that
I really enjoy.
Like you're just like, look,we're going to.
You know, I think your averagetime to fill is like I don't
know, eight days or something.
Crazy Right.
But I also want to talk about.
I heard someone use recruitingas an analogy to dating.
Yes, like if they're notfeeling you, it's going to come

(22:47):
out in the process.
That's that's.
I'm still.
I'm fascinated on that.
Like, if they're, if they'renot taking pace, then you
probably should take that as asign.
All right.
So what are some other thingsthat you've seen in the process
on the company side that peopleneed to look out for?

Speaker 1 (23:02):
So, of course, time, right, you want.
Just like a company wants theirtime valued, they should be
valuing your time as well, right?
So, as a recruiter, I try to beas engaged and upfront in
telling you what the processwill look like.
We do have some leaders out forthe holidays, so please be

(23:30):
aware that there may be a littlebit of a pause in the process,
but on a weekly basis I willcheck in with you.
So, as a recruiter, I feel likeit's our jobs to keep the
candidates engaged.
Right, we're that middle person, we're that liaison between the
candidate and the organization.
But on the back end, pleaseknow that I am on top of my
leadership team Like, I need youto answer this email.
If you don't answer an email,I'm going to schedule us a

(23:51):
weekly call.
You know, and it's essentiallyI'm being passive, but I have to
get in front of them just forthe candidate experience.
Right, you know, we have to putourselves in a candidate's shoe
and say or in their shoes andsay would we want to wait two
weeks after an interview to seehow it goes?
No, you have someone sitting onthe edge of their chair

(24:13):
wondering like did I do good,did I do bad, are they going to
move forward?
So we want to be timely in ourfeedback, just like we would
want the same if we were intheir seat.
So it's a lot of coaching onthe time piece of it.
Also, too, the biggest thing isdecision-making.
It's hard working with a leaderwho doesn't truly know what

(24:37):
they want.
Now, I understand that at thebeginning of the process, as
we're navigating it, they aregetting their first bunch of
talent and they're kind ofreviewing them and determining
what they like, what they don'tlike, experience-wise, skill set
technology.
But when you get towards themiddle, to the end, if the
leader hasn't identified what'sgoing to work best on their team

(25:00):
, that's a little bit concerningto me, because it happens a lot
.
Yeah, and that's why arecruiting process takes so long
.
That's why we have sixinterviews, because they can't
make a decision and I have totell them over three interviews
if it's not a VP level or higheris too many.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
So that's interesting .
I've seen, I've seen thesetrends coming out where
candidates will say like, howmany interviews do I have to
take?
And if it's more than likethree, they're like no, I'm good
, yeah, nope.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
And I get it Now.
I'll explain if there's moreinterviews.
Because sometimes there's arole that's heavily involved in
the business right and soleaders want the buy-in of their
business stakeholders.
So they may have you meet withsome of the different areas of
the business.
But as a recruiter, how do wemitigate it being so many?
Can we have it as a panelinterview?

(25:52):
Now, we don't want too manypeople in a panel because then
it's kind of like I got fivepeople and just me, so you want
it two, three.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
A panel and not a firing squad.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yes, that can be a little off-putting, right, and
that can just put someone in aposition where they don't feel
as comfortable.
So you don't want too manypeople.
But how do we keep it to three,four interviews, right?
Because this is time A lot ofthese candidates are working, so
they're taking time from theircurrent job to interview for

(26:26):
this job.
So we can't expect them to dosix, seven interviews and you're
still on the fence.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, it's frustrating and it's a waste of
time.
So be thoughtful about how manyinterviews you have to do,
especially and feel out themanager.
So let's talk about this.
So I want to talk about howpeople can test drive their
manager, but before we do so,let's talk about this.
So I want to talk about howpeople can test drive their
manager, but before we do, let'stalk about this concept of
ghosting, because I've seen, youknow, I've had companies ghost

(26:55):
me.
Right, I have.
I've haven't had many because Inever had I didn't have to do a
lot of interviewing, though formy career but I've had
companies ghost me where theyjust like go silent.
But there's also a thingcandidates will ghost recruiters
, yes, and what's now on therise is people ghosting their
first day of work.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, that as a recruiter.
Oh my gosh, you guys send usinto a heart attack.
When you don't show up on yourfirst day because our hiring
managers are looking at us likewhat happened?
Where's our candidate?
Yeah, so that is.
I haven't had that happen to me, have I had that?

(27:35):
No, I haven't had that happento me.
Now I've had someone on boardand then leave within the first
week, and that only happenedonce as far as because they
thought as though they weregoing to change the role from
being in office to remote, eventhough that expectation was set
clear.
Yeah, but as far as ghosting onthe first day, that has

(28:00):
happened more frequently than ithas in the past.
But as recruiters, what we haveto do frequently than it has in
the past, but as recruiters,what we have to do and it can be
time consuming is stay engagedwith our talent, even after
accepting the offer letter,after accepting the offer letter
.
And so in my current process wehave a recruiting coordinator.
She's typically the one that isconnecting with the candidate

(28:23):
pre-employment checks.
Here's your first dayonboarding task.
Welcome to your first day email.
And so she is actively engaged.
I have a report bill with herthat if someone does not respond
to your emails, let me know.
If it is one of my positionsthat is a hard to fill or maybe

(28:43):
executive level position.
I'm also gonna be very engagedthroughout that process.
I can't be as engaged witheveryone like that.
Just because I try to be veryengaged with my candidates
through the interview process,that we have a recruiting
coordinator that jumps in andhelps us there, right.
But if there's someone that youhave any bit of potential

(29:06):
hesitation towards you shoulddefinitely, as the recruiter be
staying like, be activelyengaged with them throughout
their onboarding process.
I'll even coach my managerslike hey, it's not a bad thing
to connect to your candidate.
You can reach out to them andsay, hey, I'm very excited for
you to join.
Typically, when a candidateinterviews with a strong leader,

(29:27):
they will start.
They will start.
I can nine times out of 10guarantee you certain managers I
work with.
They're always going to havetheir candidates start and be
very happy.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Because they give you the warm and fun seeds right,
absolutely.
I want to know from you all.
I want to know have you everaccepted a job and just didn't
show up?
Like I want to know why?
Like what was the situation?
What were the flags for you?
Cause I'm really curious.
Like there's a ton of researchof people, um, from fortune to

(30:00):
Harvard business review, so Ithink fast company even had an
article on folks just ghostingthe first day of work and like
with the job marketing beingwhat it is and there's more
demand on the supply.
Like I'm confused, I need toknow, like I need to know, what
are y'all doing out here?
Were you just not showing up tothe first?

Speaker 1 (30:16):
day.
Let me know, so we can mitigate.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
That is it.
I'm wondering.
If is there is there, do youhave like multiple offers?
When you play in chicken,you're like who comes in first
with the highest bid?
Are you using the one offer tohave the second offer?
I want to know have you everghosted a first day of work?
Let me know.
If you're on YouTube, put it onthe chat.
If you're on Facebook, ifyou're listening to this online,

(30:42):
go ahead and shoot over to ourwebsite, yourbosssuckscom, or,
uh, to our Facebook page,because I want to hear.
I want to hear what people haveto say about ghosting their
first day of work.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Absolutely.
And I'll say one last thing as arecruiter, if you build strong
rapport with your candidates,they actually will feel bad,
ghosting right, like they aregoing to like if I don't show up
on my first day, that's goingto look bad on my recruiter.
So if you build that rapport andjust that comfortability with
your candidates, they'll tellyou Is it a great conversation

(31:16):
to hear as a recruiter, no, butI'm always like you know what.
I want you to make the bestdecision for yourself and your
career and I would rather youmake this decision before we've
invested the time and the moneyto onboard you than you to come
on board and then a week or 90days later be gone.
So I do appreciate thetransparency, but the ghosting

(31:39):
piece, I think if we asrecruiters are establishing that
rapport, that open dialoguewith our candidates, that will
help mitigate them just notshowing up.
I think they are establishingthat rapport, that open dialogue
with our candidates.
That will help mitigate themjust not showing up.
I think they are nervous thattoo.
They try to say, hey, Iaccepted another offer, I'm no
longer interested.
Their recruiter might try totalk them into it.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So let's talk about the flipside.
Let's talk about when someone'strying to find a boss that
doesn't suck in the recruitingprocess.
What are some of the thingsthat they should be looking for
or asking to test drive theirmanager to see if they're worth
their soap?

Speaker 1 (32:26):
in interviewing and trying to assess how strong of a
leader the hiring manager isthat you would be working under
is how engaged are they in theinterview process?
Right, and you're looking atthe moments where they would be
genuinely themselves, right?
So, coming into, let's just say, a video interview, you know,
are they setting the tone for itto be comfortable?
Are they very rigid and by thebook, right?
So that tells you already whattype of leader You're either

(32:48):
going to be working with anA-type leader that's rigid,
going to follow every step, oryou're working with someone that
says, hey, how are you today?
And you're having just natural,open dialogue.
Oh, I see you have, I can hearyour dog, I have a dog too.
Right?
Just making it a comfortableenvironment, and then they will

(33:08):
shift to the interview processor the questions that they have.
So I think that's the numberone indicator.
Also, them showing up on timeor prepared is another thing too
.
Now things happen and I go aheadand I prepare my candidates
that, hey, sometimes I'mscheduling my hiring managers
back to back.
Or you know they're coming froma meeting, they're coming into

(33:29):
this interview, give them a fiveto 10 minute grace period.
But if they come on to theirinterview and they apologize for
their tardiness.
Again they're holdingthemselves accountable, they're
recognizing that they were lateand they're saying that to you
so they value your time.
So there's a couple small kindof soft not skills, but things
that you can kind of look outfor right.

(33:52):
Another big thing is a hiringmanager should be very
interested in selling you theopportunity right.
So it's not just that they'reinterviewing you, but they
should be prepared to beinterviewed right.

(34:12):
So they should want tounderstand what it is that
you're looking for in the nextopportunity that you take on,
what's important to you, andthey should be ready to
highlight those in their pitch.
So I always tell my hiringmanagers you should have a
closing pitch right that toucheson these different pieces of
what this candidate is lookingfor.
That gets them excited right.

(34:33):
If you're like we grow our team,like in the last year I've
promoted four people within myteam because not only have we
had success as a company, but asa team and as a leader, I
strive to grow and develop myteam.
That can be exciting forsomeone.
Just visibility within thebusiness, like my team is in

(34:54):
front of these differentdepartments and we have this
type of impact on the business,and I know you mentioned that
you want to be in a role whereyou're impactful.
So they're just aligning whatthe opportunity has that aligns
to what the candidate is needing.
That is a good leader, right?
Because that's a leader that'sthoughtful, that's a leader that
is taking the time tounderstand their team and then

(35:18):
being able to present themopportunities that align.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, and I would also say that it's important for
the candidate to look for howthe leader's looking for the job
to mature.
So we expect that this nextthing you could potentially do
is this, this, this Now, if it'sa new role and you've got to
grow into that, fine, but atleast have the conversation of
like, what could this look likein another three years?

(35:43):
So talk to us about whatquestions?
No, no, no.
Talk to us about whether or nota candidate should ask for
internal references, the sameway a company asks for
references from the candidate.
I've done this before.
Like, okay, you want me to move, you want me to come all the
way down there.

(36:03):
Like I need to talk to peopleand meet people that I'm going
to be relocating my entire lifefor.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
So good question and I do not think that is a bad ask
.
I think, as a candidate, justlike hiring managers, just like
recruiters, read the room, Readthe room, Understand who would
be the best person to ask thatto, right?
Sometimes you can ask that toyour hiring manager because
they've created that environmentwhere they'll welcome that and

(36:36):
not be offended by it or takenaback by it.
Right?
Sometimes it's your recruiter.
You're asking that rightBecause, again, I strive to
build a rapport with mycandidate that they should be
comfortable to ask me what theyneed and then I can go back and
make it happen.
Now, would I frame it asinternal references?
Probably not.

(36:57):
What I would suggest is sayingmore of I would love the
opportunity to meet with some ofthe people I would be working
closely with within the teamRight, and then that comes off a
little bit more of oh, shewants to see the space, she
wants to see the team, which istrue, but you also want to see
how they feel about their leader.
And you can tell by energy, youcan tell by excitement.

(37:20):
You can tell a lot byinterviewing with someone like
if this is something they enjoydoing, if this is something
they're like I'm doing itbecause I have to, or you know,
it's just, I think it is a goodway to approach.
It is probably ask me if youcould do a panel interview with
the team at some point,especially if you know you're a
finalist candidate.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yeah.
So it's interesting I have, Ihave an experience where, you
know I they were like, hey, wewant you to move, and I'm like,
yeah, I've met all of the peopleat the headquarters, but I
haven't met the people where I'mgoing to live, and so I asked
for that, and it was funnybecause it was actually kind of
raw.
I got really some really goodfeedback.
At one point, one of the ladieslike get out, right, it was.

(38:00):
She was I think about it now,she.
She was like I think about itnow, she's probably right.
I lasted a long time, though,but that was her perspective,
and it was really soberingbecause it was a balance between
the picture I was being paintedfrom the recruiter and the
leadership team and people whowere on the ground, and so I

(38:21):
really I love the balance ofthat.
So I would strongly suggest, ifyou can, if you have the space,
if you read the room and youknow who to ask, if you have the
opportunity, do your homeworkand see who you can talk to
internally to get the feels asto what's going on with both the
leadership as well as theenvironment.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
Absolutely.
Another good way to do that aswell if you're local to an
office, asking if you can comevisit the office or do one of
your interviews in person thatallows for you also to get a
feel of the culture of thatoffice space, especially if
you're going to be working in it.
I feel like if you're going tobe working in an office space at
some point in time you shouldwant to visit that office,

(39:02):
because you can go into thatoffice and cut the tension with
a knife.
Who wants to work in an officespace like that?
No, or you can go into anoffice space that's empty.
I've had like with my currentorganization.
One of our office spaces is notthat occupied and some people
like that right.

(39:23):
Some people like to be in aspace that's not loud and a lot
of movement they can focus.
But some people need peoplearound right, and so that could
be hard for them to go in dailyor on a hybrid schedule and it's
like but it's dead in here andnow.
They're like I could be at home, right, and then that creates
just unhappiness in their role.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that and with this
concept you know I'm an ex, youare a millennial we still have
boomers in the workforce.
We've got boomers, exes,millennials, zs and alphas in
the workforce Five generationsright For the first time.
Five Culturally there's so muchgoing on right For the first

(40:06):
time.
Five Culturally there's so muchgoing on right Because we've
got this tension of like workfrom home, don't work from home.
Everybody's got these RTOsreturn to work orders.
We're seeing this across andI'm sure you can appreciate as a
recruiter, like everyone's like, well, I do want to work from
home and some roles are okay,some roles are not.
I want to read this next letterbecause somebody sent us a

(40:29):
letter.
All right, so it's letter time.
This letter is from Derek.
He's an IT analyst from Denver,colorado.
Thanks, derek for the letterDear.
So your boss sucks.
I'm losing my mind.
Our company can't decide whatit wants to do with remote work.
Our one week we're allowed towork from home.

(40:50):
The next week we're forced backinto office with little notice.
My boss just sent me an emailsaying we value flexibility but
also collaboration, which meansabsolutely nothing.
It's frustrating because Iplanned childcare with my wife
around remote work and now I'mscrambling every other week.
Some of my coworkers live outof state and relocated and we
were first told we could beremote.

(41:11):
Now they're expected to fly inat their own expense and just
sit in the office and take zoomcalls all day.
I'd be fine with a clear policy, but this flip-flopping is
exhausting.
How do I get leadership to picka lane?
Help with last worker.
So this is this is a hot topic.
I'm gonna let Julia talk first.

(41:31):
What would you say?

Speaker 1 (41:34):
That is a hot topic, because there's no consistency
there, there's no trust in whatis it.
What is it that they want?
Right?
I would say in that scenario,if it impacts your personal life
, Right, and you've made thechanges to try to adapt, but
they keep changing.

(41:54):
You know, it may be good to putyour fillers out there.
Put your fillers out there, seewhat other opportunities are
there that are consistent.
See what other opportunitiesare there that are consistent.
But that is a a true um kind oflesson in when you are in the
recruitment process,understanding how clear they are
on hybrid, remote and in officework, Right, Um?

(42:17):
Do they say it with confidenceor are they saying like right
now, we're three days in office,two days remote, but that could
change.
That's telling youinconsistency.
Is there right?

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, and I'd also say it largely depends on the
manager.
I'm also finding so I grew upup until, oh God, up until, I
would say, 2000,.
When did this go 2020.
2000, when was COVID 2020.
So I'd say up until 2015, 2016,.

(42:48):
I was working in office everyday, with the exception of like
I'd take a Friday and work fromhome.
It was like infrequent in mostof the companies I've worked for
and I've worked in defense,transportation, forestry,
finance, right, but the lastroles that I had were fine with
being remote for a good, decentamount of time.

(43:10):
But it's an interesting tension.
Now companies are feelingpressure, one cause they're
paying for these buildings andain't nobody in them, and
there's an assumption thatpeople aren't working yes, which
I find fascinating.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
That's going to, and you're right.
But I feel like that also isyour leader's ability to make
the business understand thatyour team can still perform from
a remote environment, right?
So I've been in positions wheresame role but I have to be in
office.
But let's just say, ashleyacross the hall doesn't have to

(43:47):
be and I, for the life of me,cannot understand why I have to
be in office and she doesn't,right?
And it was to the point whereit's like I'm performing.
Now I feel like I'm in officebecause you're using me for more
than just my job description.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Right, I'm answering phones, I'm staffing shifts and
that's not what I'm supposed todo.
I'm supposed to recruit.
And I had to come back to themand say every month you ask me
about my numbers and if I don'tmeet my numbers, I have to hear
it, I have to explain.
But do you not notice thatyou're taking me away from my

(44:25):
focus in recruiting by having meanswer these phones and staff
opens or fill openings?
And so their solution to it wasthey were going to give me an
office upstairs and I said sowhat's the difference in just
letting me work hybrid?
So in that experience I felt myleadership didn't trust me.

(44:46):
And when you are a performerand you meet expectations to the
point where they've given youmore work to do with the same
amount of money, it was like Ididn't feel valued.
So that's where I walked away,because I didn't feel my
leadership valued me.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
You know, I think it's interesting because we
talked about it when I waspre-interviewing you but this
idea of organizations shiftingtheir values and not telling the
organization that the valueshifted right.
So for the organization thatsays, hey, you know what we can
do hybrid work and then it'slike, nope, we're in crisis,

(45:25):
we're going to change the model.
I feel like, especially withcurrent affairs being what they
were, companies are doing aworse and worse job of
communicating that we'reintentionally about to break the
psychological contract.
What do I mean by that?
You were hired for a thing.
We're now shifting the thingyou're hired for.
We're shifting the way the workis getting done and we're doing

(45:49):
it with these intentions.
For this reason and we're sorrybecause I've never seen anybody
apologize, like I said, that'slike a non-American thing to do
in corporations is apologize,but to break that thing that you
intentionally bought into.
Because at the end of the day,when you get hired by a company,
you are buying into what youwere sold the brand, the perks,

(46:12):
the total reward structure, allthat You're buying into what you
were sold the brand, the perks,the total reward structure, all
that you were buying into thatand when they break it, I feel
like somebody should apologize,like you know what Things have
shifted and my bad something.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, like we had started the conversation around.
It's like a relationship, right, company.
When something changes orsomething happens, the key to a
relationship's, you know,continuing at its pace or
sustaining is communication,right Understanding what's going
on, why it happened.
If a company can communicatethe changes, maybe not

(46:50):
everyone's going to be receptiveof it, but they'll appreciate
and respect.
Yeah, I can respect you.
Yes, because it's a company.
Business is business.
We know changes are going to bemade, not always for the people
but for the organization.
But it's about communicatingthat, being forward about it,
instead of just having it happen.
And then you're going to putthe manager as the front person

(47:13):
to let the team know, and he haslittle to no information about
it.
Just like, hey, you got to goback into the office.
Another big tip in interviewingis, if you want to feel as
comfortable as possible, knowingthat, hey, I signed up for a
remote opportunity and I want tostay remote, make sure your

(47:34):
manager is remote.
That's a good kind of becausenine times out of 10, if your
manager, if your leadership teamis remote, the chances of them
bringing a team back into anoffice with no leadership local
is very, very slim.
Now, I'm not saying it doesn'thappen or it can't, or they

(47:55):
can't.
Give your leadership team anultimatum and then they decide
no, but it's very rare.
So it's different.
When your leadership team islocal to an office and you're
remote, then there's a chance,if they do make that change in
that shift, that they may sayhey, we need people local here.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
So that's a good kind of tip.
I go by.
And I've heard candidates askthat they asked me before um
like is the team remote?
Is my leadership team remote?
Okay?

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Okay, I like it All right.
So this letter's from Jordanand, uh, this one talks about
culture and boundaries.
It fits well into the themethat we were talking about.
He says so your boss sucks.
I need help ASAP because myboss is straight up out.
She has zero chill when itcomes to work-life balance and I
swear she thinks we're on call24 seven like ER doctors or

(48:49):
something.
Last Saturday I was out with myfamily vibing like ER doctors or
something.
Last Saturday I was out with myfamily vibing, enjoying some
actual time off.
Then, ding, I got a text fromher at 9 PM asking for an update
on a client.
Mind you, I had already senther an email about it earlier.
I ignored it because, duh, it'sSaturday night.
Five minutes later she callsand I don't pick up the phone.

(49:09):
Then she calls again, stilldon't answer because, hello,
boundaries.
So what does she do?
She sends a team-wide email,basically shading me for not
being responsive Like I get.
Sales is a grind, but do Ireally need to be on every
second of my life to prove thatI care about my job?
I feel like I can't relaxwithout my phone being glued to

(49:33):
the hip in case she hits me up.
I've tried dropping hints aboutneeding personal time, but she
hits me with.
It's the nature of sales Bruh.
No, that's the nature of atoxic hustle culture.
At what point do I get to pushback without getting labeled
lazy or uncommitted?
How do I get her to realizethat my life doesn't revolve

(49:53):
around replying to her texts atall hours?
Thanks, chained to my phone andlosing my mind.
So what do you think?

Speaker 1 (50:02):
I think you get her to realize that by not
responding right.
So again, that's setting theboundary of.
You can be available if youwant to, but just be cautious of
when you open up that door ofcommunication.
Your leader may not know whento stop.

(50:22):
So if you want to have yourwork-life balance, your personal
time on the weekend don't beresponsive.
Time on the weekend don't beresponsive.
Some people will not put theiremails on their phone because if
you're like me, you're going toautomatically look at it and
then you may respond.
That's me, but I'm okay withmixing a little bit of work into

(50:45):
my weekend.
That's my personal choice, butsomeone who is not.
You really have to set thoseboundaries and not feel bad
about it, because at the end ofthe day, unless they said you
were expected to work on theweekend, you're not expected to
work on the weekend.
If you can get your job doneMonday through Friday, then
kudos to you.
You can get it done Mondaythrough Friday.
But at times you may have to betransparent and not drop hints.

(51:10):
You may have to have thatone-on-one conversation with
your leader and let them knowwhy it's important that you're
getting your work done Mondaythrough Friday.
On the weekends.
You need that time to reset, tocome back to the week refreshed
.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
So I hear what you're saying and I'll say this as
someone who came into theworkforce in the early 2000s
right, it was nothing for us towork 80 hours a week, like 60,
80 hours, which it's double awork week.
So we worked two weeks in onebecause we were just Xs, were
bomb like that, right?
So we would do that mainlybecause the boomers were doing

(51:47):
it.
Like these people didn't shutoff ever, like it was nothing
for me to get an email or textfrom one of my VPs like, hey, do
you have this information?
At 11 o'clock at night and manyof us shout out to all of my
people who know what I'm talkingabout would sleep with our
phones right next to our bedsbecause we were expecting
messages.
It was just the nature of someof the work, and if you work for

(52:09):
some of the bigger companiesthat are like some of these
consulting firms, what have you?
The pace is what it is and theygo right.
I think 20 plus years later thependulum shifted a little bit.
But I first asked Jordan, whatculture did you walk into?
What else is everybody doing?
And if they're doing it andyou're not, you are the odd man
out and you signed up forsomething that you didn't

(52:30):
realize and you've got toreconcile with that.
The second thing I would saythere's nothing wrong with you
setting boundaries, as long asthey're clear boundaries.
People don't know what you havein your head, so use dropping
subtle hints for someone who'sprobably a boomer, an Xer or
just somebody who's really hardup trying to get up their next
promotion?
They're not feeling you.

(52:51):
You have to be really specific.
What get their next promotion?
They're not feeling you.
You have to be really specific.
What I would recommend is askingquestions to your leader.
So let's just say your leader'sname is Pam.
Hey, pam, I've noticed thatevery Saturday I'm getting
messages from you and it's myvalue system not to work on
Saturday.
Can you tell me what's going onand let her explain what her
intention is?
Leave it to her, but tell her,like it's my practice, it's my

(53:15):
religion, I don't care what yousay, but say I'm not going to
work on Saturday.
So what do you need from me andhow do we make sure you get it
before you have a fire drillthat I'm not ready to answer to,
because sometimes people'sbehavior, their erratic behavior
, is their own lack of timemanagement.
And it's okay to say like,listen, an emergency on your

(53:36):
part does not constitute anemergency on mine.
Right or poor planning on yourpart does not constitute an
emergency on mine, and it'snothing wrong with saying that.
And I think it's important toask her intention first and let
her know that you wannaunderstand what her need is so
that you can also fit it intothe fact that you're not going
to work on the weekends or past,you know, five, six o'clock,

(53:58):
whatever.
That is Absolutely.
But understanding the cultureyou walked into, I think, is
paramount, because a lot oftimes you're like, well, I'm not
doing this and you look aroundlike one of these things is
doing its own thing, right, likeyou are the odd man out and you
don't want to be, it's nothelpful and maybe that's just
not the culture for you.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yes, and that's where it's important to understand
the organization that you'rejoining and understanding the
team you're joining.
So when you're interviewing,asking those questions, right,
how do you encompass work-lifebalance or support work-life
balance within your team?
You're asking the hiringmanager your potential future
leader, that in the interviewprocess to get that

(54:39):
understanding, especially ifwork-life balance is important
to you.
So, really, what I advise mycandidates to do is jot down
what's important to you, likewhat are deal breakers for you,
what causes you to be unhappy ata job, and make sure you touch
on that during the interview.
Right, you have to understand,like some things are going to be

(55:01):
good to ask the recruiter, somethings are going to be good to
ask a hiring manager and somethings may be good to ask, like
a panel interview, which may bebusiness partners you work with
or other team members.
But you want to make sure youunderstand what type of
environment you're walking intoBecause, like you said, the rest
of the team is working 50, 60hours.

(55:22):
Yes, you're going to look likethe oddball out setting
boundaries, saying you don'twork on Saturday.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
You don't kind of look like a prima donna.
And I'll say this I'll put myHR hat on Jordan, what's your
work look like?
Are you a good performer?
Are you a quality performer?
Are you behind?
Because if you're behind, youprobably need to go ahead and
answer that Saturday email.
I find it interesting thatsometimes poor performers are
usually like well, I'm not doingthat, but you kind of need to

(55:47):
to catch up, right?
So, jordan, I'm sure you're agreat performer, but if you not
ask around, ask some of thepeople around you like hey,
listen, look at my work package.
Like am I delivering, am I?
You need to be really honestabout that.
The other thing I'll say is ityou can't, it's probably not
likely for you to expect apromotion just doing what you're
asked.

(56:09):
I'm going to say that again forthe people of that Don't expect
a promotion just for doing yourjob.
Many of us who have been on thecorporate ladder on various
stages know that if you wantthat next job, it's both
positioning yourself with theright allies and network.
But the better half is doingmore than your ass, and that's

(56:32):
what most companies expect.
But the better half is doingmore than your ass and that's
what most companies expect, andso if you're really looking for
to grow in your career, moreoften than not that other duties
, as a sign box is actuallyquite big and quite large, and
it's going to cost some nightsand some weekends and blood,
sweat and tears in order for youto get that next level up.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Absolutely.
Thanks, yes, and honestlysetting that tone right with
your leader.
You guys should be havingconversations on.
You know where you want yourcareer to go.
I know there's individuals inmy team that they just want to
do their job.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
And go home, and go home, leave me alone.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
And so no, they're not going to do the extra work,
right?
They want to do what is askedof them and then clock out, and
that's okay.
You need those team members onthe team because there's not
going to be enough promotionalopportunities for everybody,
right?
But if you're someone thatwants to grow, it is going to
take, you know, that extra workof showing that you can do it

(57:27):
and setting that tone.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
All right.
So if you ever have a chance totalk to a professional, you've
got to ask them, like, whattheir top questions are, and so
we're going to ask Julia, thetalent matchmaker, what her top
five questions.
A candidate should ask amanager to make sure they're not
a leader.
That sucks.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Love this question, so I did jot down five questions
that will be helpful.
First one would be how do youdescribe your leadership style?
So it's important to ask thisto your hiring manager,
potential leader, because youwant to understand how they
describe themselves.
Are they a people leader?
Are they hands-on, but not amicromanager?

(58:09):
We want to understand whatstyle they lead their team in
and if that fits your style.
So, two, what do you do to keepyour team motivated, especially
during challenging times?
That one's a good one.
Reason for this we want tounderstand, during high,
stressful times maybe criticalperiods of the year, strict

(58:33):
deadlines how do they lead theirteam, how do they guide their
team during these challengingtimes and keep them motivated?
That's really important.
Question number three how doyou set goals with your team and
how do you measure success?
Another big one, I would say.
A lot of the positions I recruitfor are typically on the
corporate side, so there's somesort of bonus aligned to the

(58:58):
position that are typically inalignment to performance.
So you want to understand howdo they determine your success
within your role.
What are they using?
Kpis, are there certaincriteria that you have to meet?
You want to understand how dothey measure success in your
role.
Question number four how do youonboard new team members to set

(59:23):
them up for success?
So this is important, right?
So a lot of candidates mightask what does onboarding look
within the first 30 to 60 days?
Honestly, a leader who has thismapped out is a leader who has
prepared for this person to comeon board and wants to set them
up for success.
So if they're able toconfidently answer how they're

(59:44):
going to set you up for success,they're ready for you and that
typically highlights a strongleader.
And then, last but not least,what is the most important
leadership lesson you've learnedin your career?
This question allows and kindof opens up the floor for a
leader to be very authentic.
They can share opportunitieswhere they've had to hold

(01:00:07):
themselves accountable asleaders.
But you really can understandwhat type of leader they are if
they can tell you how they'vetaken lessons and have learned
from it.
So these would be, I would say,five questions that will allow
for you to dive a little bitdeeper into what type of leader
you're interviewing with.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Julia.
I've really enjoyed our timetogether.
I think it's been a fabulousconversation.
So many nuggets from thisconversation, I think one from
understanding your culture tothe five questions that you
should ask when you're lookingfor your manager.
Just so many nuggets.

(01:00:47):
I'd be interested.
If you have nuggets from thissession, please drop them in the
comments or shout them out onour Facebook page.
Any final thoughts you want toshare with the so your Boss
Sucks community?

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Yes.
Some final thoughts I wouldlove to share is when you are in
the search for your nextopportunity whether that's
passive search or you'reactively searching don't be
afraid to ask questions.
Don't be afraid to interviewthe opportunity like they are
interviewing you.

(01:01:20):
This is going to be potentiallya pivotal moment in your career
, so you want to make sure thatyou understand the full picture,
you understand what type ofleadership you're going into.
I know my sister once said youknow, sometimes you can hop from
one frying pan to the next.
So that's the thing you don'twant to do.
You don't want to leave a toxicenvironment for another toxic

(01:01:45):
environment.
That's a little bit backwards.
That you are confident inyourself and your skill sets to
understand that an organizationshould also be selling you on
the opportunity to join them.
So always ask questions.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
I like that because a lot of times organizations,
especially if they have a bigbrand name, try to make it feel
like you should be grateful towork for them.
Not that they're gaining anasset because they're getting
you, and so operating with thatlevel of confidence also, I
think, puts you within the legup.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Absolutely, and a strong leader will know that too
.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Absolutely Well, listen.
This concludes our episode ofso your Boss Sucks, now what?
Thanks again to Julia Cooper,the talent matchmaker.
You've been an excellent guestand we're excited to see you.
Hopefully one more time.
We'll figure out that out.
Yes, we'd love to.
That's it for today.
I'm excited about what's goingon.
This entire season is all aboutHR.
I brought in some of my goodfriends to tell you how to

(01:02:45):
navigate your sucky bosssituations so you can go from
suck to success.
I'm excited about what'shappening.
Don't forget to like, share andsubscribe, and remember, don't
let your boss suck the life outof you.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker

(01:03:06):
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom or, if you'd
like to bea.