Natalie Parker and leadership coach Ayana Coston dive into what happens behind the scenes when organizations call in executive coaches to help struggling leaders develop or correct performance issues.
• Most leaders lack fundamental leadership skills despite technical expertise
• Leadership effectiveness rarely measured in performance management
• Leaders need safe spaces to be heard without judgment
• Employees betraying themselves by not asking for what they need
• Cultural differences dramatically impact conflict management styles
• 95% of the time, the feared conversation is worse in your head than reality
• Giving feedback requires psychological safety on both sides
• Leaders being monitored/evaluated on keystroke counts rather than outcomes
• Understanding before action when addressing leadership issues
• Clear communication about values and expectations prevents misalignment
If you're working for a leader who isn't supporting you properly, have the conversation about what you need, document your approach, and be willing to make changes if the environment doesn't improve. Remember that your value isn't determined by one workplace.
Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
Share your bad boss story on our website.
Learn more or Book Natalie.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, it's me again, Natalie Parker, your host of.
So your Boss Sucks, now what?
And I'm excited, and you knowI'm always excited.
I'm excited because I'm backhere with my homie, my homegirl,
Ayanna Koston, and today we'regoing to be talking about
coaching leaders.
So this episode is about bosseswho either work for bad leaders
(00:22):
or they're a bad leaderthemselves, and we're going to
talk about and dish on you know,as coaches, what we do, what we
see, some of the themes andmotifs.
So if you're an employee, you'restill going to want to listen.
You're still going to want tolisten to this because we're
going to take you behind thecurtain of some things that you
may not know going on.
When someone says your leaderhas a coach, that's kind of what
they mean.
They've called us as, like thelifeline, the call for help, or
(00:45):
even just to help your leadersdevelop.
You're going to want to knowwhat happens behind the curtain.
So stay tuned because we'reabout to talk to my friend,
ayana Costin Remember her linkis going to be in the show notes
.
Make sure to check out herLinkedIn and all of the things
and let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Ayanna, we're back.
Thank you for having me back.
I love these conversations, butI really love them with you as
my friend, as my fellow HRODcoach, so I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I appreciate it.
I appreciate it.
We're going to have some fullrange shenanigans.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
All right, so you are a coach Now.
You've been coaching now onyour own, for the better part of
Four and a half years.
June makes five years.
I'm completely solo, but I'vebeen coaching part-time since
2010.
So it's my 15th year ofcoaching.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am, I remember that year.
All right, so short story.
I took a package from a companyand the whole point was like
I'm going to go and I'm going tostart my own business, and I
was excited, and I was too, foryou.
You were pregnant with my ideas.
So what happened was I took thepackage in February and then,
(02:11):
like two weeks later, Iannounced I had a new job and I
was angry.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
She called and cussed me out y'all.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
She really did.
It was like what in the world,how could you do?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
this to us.
No, I was legitimately angrybecause I saw your potential.
I saw your capacity and I alsoneeded to see through you as my
big sister, but little sister,same age sister, that you could
do it.
I really feel I was probablyangry because you were my hope.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And I didn't know that at the time.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
No, I remember saying how dare you?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
How dare you take a job, listen listen, I needed to
eat and I had no plan because,like we have faith.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
We had.
No, I have a plan.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Listen, faith without work is dead listen, I had no
plan and thank god I had thematurity to know that I had
ideas, but I had no plan offruition but you need that
balance.
you need the crazy one and thepractical one, and I thank God
that I was able to learn that Iwas not ready, because now, at
the age I am, the business isabout to have another birthday.
(03:12):
Shout out to Natalie ParkerEnterprises, where we help
organizations, have healthyrelationships, and we're about
to have another birthday.
What birthday?
It'll be the third this year,so just a few months away from
third birthday of the company.
It's been amazing and I'm muchmore in a different place now
being an entrepreneur than Iwould have been 15 years ago.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I remember the company you love.
I remember the company you'regoing to work for and I remember
how angry I was.
I was like but we had plans tobe entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
You said how could you do this to us?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Maybe give or take, but but I'm so proud of us to
look where we are and I thinksome of it could be the result
of the choices we made becauseof who we worked for and what we
needed for ourselves, and lookat, look at God, look at where
we are today.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yes, we are all different people, so, listen,
we're going to talk aboutcoaching leaders.
Yes, so you, you found yourentree into coaching leaders and
you have worked with a varietyof industries and organizations.
I would say thematically,what's the thing you say that
most leaders are in need of whenit comes to I don't want to say
(04:18):
autocorrect, because there's noautocorrect, but like course
correction in their leadershipstyle?
What's the thing that they'remost in need of?
Like thematically, over your 15years?
What's the thing that they'remost in need of?
Like thematically over your 15years?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
what's the thing that you see consistently?
Well, it's two parts.
It's a listening voice wherethey're truly heard and not
judged.
And you know, right now, thewhole social media thing is we
listen and we don't judge.
I really feel that, first ofall, leaders are in need of that
, because they store so much intheir brain and are just
behaving in the way that theythink the culture wants them to.
So they need us, as executiveand leadership coaches, to truly
(04:49):
listen and to not judge.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And have a safe space to be like listen.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
And that's foundational.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Because I think for so long they'd held it in
because they've been trying toplay the game.
They don't want to take it totheir families.
They don't want to take it totheir friends because their
friends are sick of being freetherapists.
They may not have a therapist,dependent on if they can afford
it or what communities thinkabout therapy, so they just need
that.
That's the foundation.
I think the theme that I'mhearing the most is I don't have
(05:16):
enough skill to do thisleadership thing.
None of them come to me sayingI'm not a good engineer, I'm not
a good scientist, I'm not agood fill in the technical word.
I don't even know what it meansto be a leader, and so I feel
so blessed to coach in thatspace because I happen to love
leadership development becauseof what I've been through, and
so I can mix that with the useof really getting curious and
(05:38):
asking what you want as yourcoach.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well, I think that's a pause for all of the folks out
listening.
Is that give your leaders graceand I say this often is that
most of them have not hadcopious amounts of exposure,
training and coaching on how tolead.
Even if they got a training yousaid copious, or any amounts,
(06:01):
any amounts, right, but I mean,think about it.
Like you learned how to ride abike, you learned how to type.
Most of us who don't type likethis anymore, right, We've
learned things by learning fromothers.
But, leadership is somethingthat many of us learn by
watching, but until you're inthe seat, you don't know how to
do it, and many of us sufferbecause our leaders never got
(06:23):
the space to have someone coachthem on how to lead.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Because they were super employees that did really
good in their job, that becamesupervisors Again back when now
we use the term leadership.
It's so fancy, but you used tohave a boss, you used to have a
supervisor, and then you had amanager and then you had a
director.
So we just became a goodemployee doesn't necessarily
mean that you're going to begood at managing personalities,
people and other work.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Right, and I would also say that I find from a
performance management space, sothat's a space that I love is
that most companies don't assessyour performance as a manager,
as a leader right, they assessyour numbers, they assess your
outcomes, but they're notassessing on these leadership
qualities.
(07:06):
How well did you do ondeveloping your team?
How well did you do on creatingthe next generation of leaders?
How well do you do?
And what you measure gets done,yeah, and so that gap for me is
also a big thing, where I'mlike come on, y'all do better.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
So why do you think they're not doing it?
Why do you think leaders arenot writing down or putting
expectation and measurements inplace for what they expect?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
One.
I think the term leadership isso obtuse.
There's no standard definitioneverywhere, right, so it's
contextual, it's situational Ifyou went to Djibouti right now,
because I guess we said thatlast episode, right, right,
culturally they're doing adifferent definition and so
there's no standard definition.
(07:53):
That's number one.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
We're not going to talk about leadership in America
on this episode, but keep going.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well, I mean, it's an episode about leadership.
And I think it's alsosubjective in many ways, and so
there are very few companiesthat have a good definition of
what leadership is.
Yes, that's number one.
Number two is I'd also say thateveryone thinks they can do it.
Every like.
You and I would not go andassess America's top model.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Cause one we ain't going to do this and we don't
know how many donuts model, butanyway.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
But I mean, but I don't even know what the scoring
is like what a good walk isright, but many cases you have
people who are reporting topeople who are leaders
themselves and they don't knowhow to assess it right, so we
have people who are ill-equippedto assess in the position in
the first place.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
But let me push back a little bit and say yes, and a
lot of people who think thatthey can't because I coach them
too would be the best leaders.
But somewhere in society or theculture of these organizations
they've been told that theycan't.
So some of the best leadersthat I would love to see lead
are afraid to and don't andwon't.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And I don't disagree with that.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
But I'll tell you this Everyone has an opinion
about leadership, right, and so,if you think about it, we are
in the age of opinion, whereeveryone thinks their opinion
matters.
Newsflash it doesn't.
It doesn't, your opinionmatters in certain segment where
people care.
Not everybody cares.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I love you.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Put it in the comments, tell it to the rain,
but at the end of the day, notevery opinion matters and they
don't all matter equally, and so, when you think about it,
everyone has a Monday morningquarterback.
John Madden situation on what aleader should or should not do,
and you don't know until you'rein that seat.
So you're flat out in it, facedin the middle of the field, you
(09:41):
don't know, but we know how itmakes us feel, but that doesn't
mean we know how to do it,because you don't know what's
coming from the top the sidearound and there's no blueprint.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Let's face it there's not one book.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
There's a million leadership books all over the
show.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Jesus was a good leader, jesus was probably the
best right, and Jesus was aservant leader too.
So when we really look at itlike that, it's not the typical
definition that you're not goinginto organizations where
they're like let me bow and washyour feet and be the leader for
you, because I'm the boss, I'min charge, you do for me.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
All right, I wasn't going to make this about Jesus,
but let me tell you so, as aperson of faith, I will live my
entire intersectionality and saythis.
One of the things that I oftentell my husband, who's a pastor,
is the reason why Jesus was thedope leader is because he
walked with the people.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
With, and that's what coaches do.
They walk with you, rightBesides you.
They don't have to know nothingabout you, but they're going to
walk with you, not in front ofyou, and not behind you and that
makes a difference, right?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
So if you're swooping in and leaving and then coming
back and barking orders, like wetalked about earlier, right,
it's not leadership.
You are setting some level ofdirection, but that's not
necessarily and you have to havea clear vision.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Right, and I think a lot of people call themselves
leader, but they can't leadthemselves out of a paper bag or
a box or out their own frontdoors, which they know where the
door is.
So leaders have to have acompelling vision.
That's the whole Kuhn's andPosner's for those who are in a
theory or who-.
The leadership challenge.
What is your compelling vision?
That I will follow you, becausethat's the biggest part of
(11:10):
leadership, not management.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, If you're watching this on YouTube or if
you were on the Facebook page,we'll put it out there.
I want to know what are some ofthe things that you think good
leadership is right.
I'd be interested to hear fromyou all what leadership is to
you.
So if you're on YouTube, goahead and put it in the comments
.
I'd be interested to hear.
So leadership as a definition,we don't have one.
(11:31):
A lot of people who don't wantto lead.
You feel like they should lead.
What are some other things thatyou're seeing from a coaching
context that you wish peopleknew?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I wish people knew how difficult leadership is and
how much of a privilege it is.
And I'm going to start from theclients that I coach that may
be having some difficulty withwho they report into.
They may even be leadersthemselves.
A lot of my coach mostlyC-suite individuals are leaders
of other leaders.
So I think what I wish peopleknew is that leadership is hard,
(12:03):
but it's also privilege.
It's hard because there's noplaybook, and it's also hard,
Natalie, because I don't alwaysthink we get good feedback until
we do something wrong.
So when you're leading andthings are well, no one says
anything to you.
But the minute you misspoke orjudge someone the wrong way or
ask someone to do something,it's like the world falls and
(12:24):
you get demotivated anddiscouraged and almost like shut
down.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I like what you said about not getting feedback, but
I'd also be interested, right,how many of your leaders
actually get feedback from theiremployee base?
Right?
Because what I've leadersactually get feedback from their
employee base.
Right, because what I've foundis, when you're in these
leadership spaces, the peoplethat are reporting to you I
won't say subordinates, becauseI hate that word, but we're
reporting to you legit.
(12:50):
We'll just stop talking to you.
Like it becomes like radiosilence right, Like once last
time, you gave your leader goodfeedback like, oh, John, I
really appreciate how you didthis and this was great, or hey,
good job in the meeting.
And here's why I've done itbefore.
And you know, I think some ofthe leaders thought I was being
condescending.
I'm like no, I really think youdid a great job, so you got to
be authentic with it.
(13:10):
But, like, leaders needencouragement no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
We were on a call and something had happened and I
said I have to give this personfeedback and I did.
But what made it safe for me isI know the person.
They know the amount of loveand care that I have for our
work and the respect I have forthem.
So most people don't givefeedback because it's not
psychologically safe, it's notemotionally safe.
So when I think about this andyou know my brother Khalid,
you'll know exactly who it is Italked to you.
(14:11):
Something happened in a meeting.
I noticed it wasn't overlynegative, but I asked a question
about do you think peopleweren't answering because you
were doing this?
And it was a stacking questionand I wasn't sure if he thought
people weren't asking becausethey didn't have anything to say
.
I said I wasn't asking becauseI didn't know which question to
start with, because I was stuckon the last one and a few came.
(14:31):
So we were on the phone andafter everybody got off I said
do you have a quick minute?
I wanted to give you somefeedback, are you open?
I said do you have a quickminute?
I wanted to give you somefeedback, are you open?
He said yes, it was beautiful.
We talked and in the feedback Ilaughed and said hello, kettle,
this is pot.
I do this so often that Irecognized it because I'm
working on it, which was true.
I'm saying that to say we'renot getting feedback in our
(14:52):
organizations because, asleaders, are we making it safe
for people to tell us wherewe're actually going to listen?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
even if we don't agree.
Well, I think that's importantbecause you have to give people
one the benefit of the doubtthat, even if they don't deliver
it well, that they'redelivering it with the intention
of communicating somethingthat's necessary.
You get to choose whether ornot you take it or leave it.
Fish and bones right it's likea buffet right.
And if you make it safe forthem to say what they feel like
(15:20):
saying, you can work through howit's said to you or how you
might've heard it differently,or litmus tested with other
people that you trust better tocome back and say I heard what
you said, that's not what Iintended and I understand how
you felt.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So after 20 something years of doing some type of HR
leadership, coaching work, Ithink I have like the billion
dollar solution to fix this andI want to get paid for it.
So you know, when this podcastblow up, holler at me, but it's
we have.
Feedback has to become a partof the culture, and so normal
and so necessary that it's oftenwhat we would call in the
(15:53):
business world after actionreview what worked well, what
didn't work so well, what couldmake it more innovative.
So then it's not scary andthreatening.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I think it has to be a part of it.
But here's the deal One.
Many people are in hyperdrivewhen it comes to the
organization.
You just don't get time.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
You just have to act, act, act, act act, act.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You don't, and I don't know that our
organizations value the time ittakes to sit they don't know
that our organizations value thetime it takes to sit and think.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So screw the organizations and do it for
yourself, because, see, that'salso a misnomer.
The organization has to proveit.
What if we just giftedourselves that?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I agree, and you, as a leader, can make time.
And there's the pressure.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
You can tell I don't work in corporate America, no
more, I work for myself.
Listen, listen listen.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
You know what's funny , though.
I will honestly tell you this.
So I was designing aperformance management system
for an organization and theywere like Natalie, this is
really great.
I love what you're saying.
It's a room full of HR peopleand they were like on fire,
hungry and excited about what wewere saying.
And then their next response was, yeah, but they're not going to
do this on the floor becausethey just don't have enough time
(16:59):
.
And I was like, okay, so you'dmean to tell me that if a leader
was in his team, was damagingproduct over and over again, you
would actually take them offthe floor, you would train them,
take time and make sure theyknew how to do it?
Right, of course, because thatproductivity is expensive, right
(17:22):
?
Damaging the product isexpensive.
It's going to move them up, yep, right, and you know.
And so they were like yeah, Isaid so.
Tell me then how, if yourpeople are your most important
asset, that leaders out heredamaging the people aren't more
important to be able to take offthe floor and go ahead and make
sure that they have what theyneed so that they're coaching
them appropriately and givingthem feedback and engaging your
(17:45):
workforce.
If it's more important and it'smore expensive to replace a
person than a product, tell mehow.
That's not the.
So you're a little passionateabout this.
I was hot because I was likethere's a room full of people
who are like you, are thedisciples of, like this is the
thing we do, and you gave me thebusiness response.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
if they don't have time.
But that shows you that peopledon't see it with the same value
, because they only see it oh,if you mess up, I'll pull you
off the floor.
They're not thinking.
We're just not thinkingproactively in organizations and
we're making an excuse that wedon't have time.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
We have to make the time.
I agree, Agreed.
So let's go back to the leadersthat you coach.
C-suite that may have that mayhave leaders that they report to
that are less than seller Cause.
Let's be clear y'all like youmay be like an individual
contributor and have a suckyboss, but I promise you, up and
down the chain people have suckybosses.
Yes, seriously, such to thepoint that sometimes we get
called in to coach them on howto deal with the suckiness.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
All the time we get called in.
So I'm going to say thatsometimes leadership is a ripple
effect Good, bad or indifferent.
Sometimes, if you have ahorrible boss, you may become a
better boss yourself.
Sometimes, if you have ahorrible boss, you keep the
generational curse of beinghorrible going.
But I think, if I'm reallylooking at what are my
executives struggling with thatmay have their own hard boss
themselves.
(19:02):
I'm going to give some realexamples and say I had a
situation recently where I havea person who is a leader and
this person has a leader.
Their boss is not bad in termsof you would think, mean or
nasty or good.
It's almost the opposite.
This particular person that Iwas working with recently has a
boss who's just very personaland not focused on work at all.
(19:23):
Okay, so she's in a positionreporting to a boss who is not
developing her, who's nothelping her to learn, but it's
very nice, very sweet but alsovery personal.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Personal, like she gets in her business.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
They want to tell their business to their employee
, oh, like.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
so the executive is like oh yeah, so yesterday I was
getting my nails done at theblah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
So they're telling all of their personal business.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
It's about them, so their relationship is about them
.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
And some of it is sad business and personal business.
So the employee, who's also aleader, feels sad because she
has empathy for this person andshe doesn't want to be rude and
say I don't want to hear anymore.
Your personal business, how doI develop?
And so here's what we coachthrough, and this is why it's so
important for y'all to thinkabout who you are as a person
and what you want.
As I'm getting to know mycoaching client, I'm realizing
(20:10):
she's so nice and she's so sweet, but so was her boss.
He's so nice and he's so sweet.
Her boss had almost noindication that this even
bothered her, because every timehe comes to her she openly
embraces it.
So to me, she's telling me onething like the boss isn't that
great.
So one of the coachingquestions that we ask as coaches
is what does the person knowabout how you feel?
(20:32):
How much do they know?
Not do they know, cause that'sa closed in question yes or no?
How much do you think theperson knows about how you feel?
And it was a pregnant pause andthe response was well, I don't
want to hurt their feelings.
I didn't ask you anything abouttheir feelings.
I'm curious how much do they?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
know.
You know, what's interesting Isay this often too is that we
feel betrayed when people aremean to us.
We feel betrayed when peopledon't meet our expectations, but
we more betray ourselves whenwe don't advocate for what we
need in a relationship.
You betray yourself when youdon't are so many deep roots.
(21:10):
Listen, um, there's a guy namedJerry Harvey who wrote a book.
He wrote the road to Abilene.
You're familiar with that,where we all go together, but we
really never wanted to go inthe first place.
Google it, it's great, um, butwe really never wanted to go in
the first place.
Google it, it's great.
But then there's also he wrotethis book called how Come Every
Time I Stab, I Find a?
No, how Come Every Time I Finda Knife in my Back?
(21:31):
My Fingerprints Are on the.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Knife On the knife.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Oh yeah, how Come I Get Stabbed Every time I get
stabbed in the back?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
my fingerprints are on the knife.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
And the premise of this book is that listen when
people are terrible to you andyou know the terribleness is
happening and you don't call itout.
You are a culprit to your owndemise.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Exactly, and that's what I want people to understand
.
It's not always the bad leadersand what we think like they're
being rude or they're being mean.
This person isn't getting whatthey need from their leader.
But they're also coming tocoaching to say but I don't know
how to.
So one of the things that we doin coaching is sometime in
alignment meeting where I meetwith you as the client and your
boss to say are we in alignmenton what the goal of coaching is?
(22:09):
We're not going to tell youeverything we talk about.
So I challenged this particularclient to ask their boss for
what they need, and it was a bitof nervousness at first.
They were like well, what doyou mean I should ask.
I said, well, you said you'renot sure if they know.
So they did Right then, andthere I was so proud of them.
And they said I would like morestructured feedback.
I want more feedback about whenI'm doing something wrong.
And the boss instantly openedup and literally said something
(22:33):
on the facts of yeah, I havebeen talking all personal things
.
Okay, I can do that, and it wasthat simple and that easy.
However, comma, I interjectedand said what would it look like
if we just called it feedback,not just bad, because sometimes
you're not getting any feedbackbecause you're doing such a
wonderful job.
So then we made this agreementto say we're just going to do
more feedback.
(22:53):
And then they said I want tostart with the business stuff to
see what was happening.
They were getting hijacked withthe other stuff and then his
time is out.
Do you have any work?
Things In the last 30 seconds.
Really interesting too, thatthat person, then the leader,
the executive, gave feedback tothe person right at the end of
the meeting about something thatthey could do different and
better.
Person accepted it, talked alittle bit about why they
(23:15):
behaved and then, when theleader hung up, the person said
I'm so sorry, ayanna.
I said for what?
I just lost my composure.
I was so defensive, I justdidn't handle this well.
And I looked and I said Ididn't see that.
I saw a very well-composed, puttogether person who said thank
you.
I was more distraught, as thecoach and I'm supposed to have
management, that they did it inthe way that they did it, but I
(23:35):
didn't get anything from youexcept a smile, right?
What's the moral of the story?
The moral is sometimes thefight we have is in our head
Fully and the conversation's inyour head.
So what requests do we make ofleaders?
It's our job to sometimes makea better leader by asking them
for what we need and just stopit.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
But I think that goes for any relationship.
You can't be mad at anyone forexpectations you have not
articulated nor asked for it,because you can articulate it.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
But it's another thing to ask.
I can articulate I'm angry andI'm frustrated, but then I have
to ask could you stop leavingyour sock on the floor or the
cabinets open?
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Listen Fair, but I think at the end of the day,
it's.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I have an expectation .
This is my expectation of you.
Can you meet it or not?
Because if they say listen andif you don't leave because I'm
the queen of leaving no, no, no,don't do that she's going to
tell you to quit.
No, no, no, don't do that,because that's another episode,
don't leave.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I'm saying working out, but I think, and it's okay
if they say yes and they, buteither way, when someone shows
you who they are, maya.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Angelou said believe them and believe them the first
time.
And believe them the first time.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
But then be okay with the fact that, like you know
what this is just not somethingyou can do, and don't hold them
hostage to the expectationanymore, because now you're just
you know.
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on meRight.
(25:09):
It's acceptance too, becausewith that comes I did ask and I
have to accept.
So now how do I work aroundthat?
By accepting it, just knowingthat they're not able or willing
, or both Right.
So we were having aconversation, so we are here on
set and it's a wonderful time.
We're talking to a colleaguewho's here and we asked her the
question like what's one thingas a coach you wish everyone
knew?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And the answer was how to deal with and manage
conflict.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Now, I said in season one, you have to plan for your
conflict.
You have to practice conflictbefore you have it, map out your
pathway and the things that youwill or will not do, understand
your triggers.
But at the end of the day, ifyou don't learn anything else in
a business environment, knowinghow to have conflict and manage
conflict is probably one of thebiggest challenges that we see
(25:51):
consistently throughout ourcareers.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, and you know what she said.
Her name is Krista.
She's here with us today.
It's kind of like almost likestarting at ground zero is kind
of what I heard.
That I'm constantly having tosay, like this is a normal part
of it.
It's conflict because thepeople that come to her for the
help that they need as a coachor an HR are usually only coming
because they're conflict.
(26:14):
Not many people are comingbecause things went well and
let's celebrate the big bonusesand the joy that we got together
.
They're only coming when we hitconflict.
But I think you were sayingthis earlier in one of your
other podcasts conflict helps usgrow and it actually helps us
get to the best side of therelationship, because without it
we may not have gotten there.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Listen nothing moves or grows without friction.
You said that.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Your car does not move without friction.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
A plant does not grow unless it creates friction out
of the ground.
We all need the friction.
One of my favorite scripturessays, as iron sharpens iron so
sharpens the one person inanother right.
But here's the deal Iron making, sword making.
As iron sharpens iron, so doesthe countenance of one man
sharpen another.
It is really violent.
(26:58):
It's a very violent thing.
If you've ever seen somebodymake a sword, it is a violent
thing.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
It sounds violent too .
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Thousands of degrees in heat, you pull it out and
then you take another piece ofmetal and you hammer it over and
over again to shape it and moldit To what you want it to be
and to make it sharp, exactly.
And I think that when it comesto conflict, we shy away from it
.
I, on the other hand, when Ifirst started my career, I was
(27:25):
winning Guns blazing.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
You know, it's that whole theory.
I don't know who made it.
Moving away, moving towards andmoving against.
I was like come on, I'm comingtowards you.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I'm not afraid of no ghosts.
I ain't afraid of no ghosts.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I was going into it, but I also think this is an
important conversation because aworkforce is made of people,
culturally, that come fromdifferent places.
I grew up in a household whereI went to church with my great
grandmama, but my mama and mygrandmom never really stepped
foot into a church and they wasa cussing family.
I thought we was the Navy,because everything was a curse
word and everything was a fight.
It was normal and it wasnatural to fight and then go
(28:00):
have ice cream.
Other people might grow up infamilies where conflict is the
worst thing ever and you don'taddress it.
So think about all that and thecompassion we need to have that
all of these different peopleand all the different ways we
were brought are now in oneenvironment with no guidebook,
and now some people are passive,aggressive to conflict.
Some people are like we were inour twenties boom, let's go.
(28:21):
Cause it was fun.
It wasn't even a bad thing.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
No, I'm just going'm gonna.
I thought I was gonna be alawyer.
Listen me too, guns blazingexactly like I will.
I will argue you down with allof the facts very quickly, make
my point and then leave youbleeding.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And I didn't know I cut you and I would cuss you out
without ever cussing, and smileand people say what just
happened to me exactly and Ithink one thing that I found is
um working with some otherclients as well, is that the
cultural differences right.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I have folks that work in different countries and
they're like oh my.
God, they're so loud.
Or oh my God, they won't saywhat they mean, but they'll say
it to everybody else.
Or oh my gosh, they're soaggressive.
All of these things matter andit's important for us to figure
that out.
So you've been coaching now for15 years.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
But I'm only 12.
No, I'm just joking.
I've been coaching for 15 yearsand loving it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
One of the things that's always interesting to me
is when we're called in to coacha performance issue that the
leader who hired you doesn'twant to fix themselves.
This does happen.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
And the coach is magically supposed to fix it.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Well, bob isn't producing or Bob doesn't know
that everybody hates the way heengages with them and they
haven't given him the feedback.
And the coach is brought in todo a 360 and an assessment and
all of these other things,because don't nobody want to
talk to Bob.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And oh, by the way, if it doesn't work, ayana, tell
us so that we can get rid of Boband I have to say whoa, time
out.
So the recovering HR part of meknows that we're not going to
do that in HR.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Part of me knows that we're not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You're also spending a lot of money just to get rid
of someone.
And we don't want to look likethe assassins.
We do not, and I will never be,even in HR.
And so I think coaching is sucha beautiful thing because, yes,
you brought me into Coach Bob,but 90% of the time I say, well,
can I offer you some coaching?
What do you know about it?
Would you mind starting here?
Or I just naturally start tocoach, to ask them some of the
questions before I even go, andone of my favorite questions is
(30:09):
what have you already shared?
Not what do you think they know.
What have you already shared?
And the stories are hilariousbecause it's a lot of beating
around the bush.
They haven't said anything, butthey think we should explicitly
know.
So that's, I just think thatthat's a big part of it.
So I think coaching them tohelp them understand what it is
and what it's not, and for us tohold our integrity and ethics
(30:30):
as certified coaches is to saythis is not a part of what I'm
able to do.
This is what I'd like you to do.
This is what I can offer.
That's the hardest and thefunniest part, because people
don't want to be the bad police.
They want us to do it for a lotof money too, y'all.
People don't want to be the badpolice, they want us to do it
for a lot of money too.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Y'all Facts Not cheap , not cheap, not cheap.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
It's letter time.
It's letter time, let's do.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Letter time let's hear a letter, it's mail time.
This letter is from Jennifer,marketing coordinator for Malls
in Texas.
Dear Say your Boss, sex.
I need help.
My manager, dave, has takenmicromanagement to an insane
level.
Our company rolled out trackingsoftware to monitor remote
(31:11):
employees and I now get messagesevery hour questioning why my
activity dropped.
If I stepped away to take abathroom break or read a report
without moving my mouse, I getan email asking what I'm doing.
Last Monday I was on a45-minute strategy call engaging
in an actual discussion about amajor client project.
After the meeting, my bossasked why my keystroke count was
(31:35):
low during the time.
He didn't care that I hadactually been actively
contributing ideas.
He just saw that I wasn'ttyping, so I must not have been
working.
I understand the need foraccountability, but I feel like
I'm being treated as a machineinstead of a marketer.
The constant monitoring makesme feel like I moved into a
digital prison and it's causingme stress.
(31:55):
I'm getting my work done, butit doesn't seem to matter unless
I'm clicking the mouse nonstop.
How do I get my boss to trustthat I'm actually working
without having to put on aperformance?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
sincerely tired of being you better answer first,
because I am the queen ofquitting and have some questions
, but I'm not gonna start there.
I really want to help.
What's her first name?
Oh, oh.
Jennifer, sorry, jennifer okay,I really want to help Jennifer,
so I'm not going to go withshe's going to tell you to quit.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
It's going to end.
No, I'm not.
I'm really not.
But do you want to start first?
You want my opinion?
You're going to tell her toquit.
It's going to end, we're goingto talk about all the
opportunities?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I'm really not, but do you want to start first or
you want my opinion?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
You're going to tell her to quit, but go ahead.
No, I'm not, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
What I'm going to coach you through.
When it comes to maybe yourboss stopping is to earlier what
we talked about.
Sometimes it's a system thing,so I want to go to understanding
before I go to action.
So I want to ask my boss aquestion Like how did we come up
with this thing?
Like I kind of understand, likeremote workers, it started
during COVID.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I didn't know they were doing keystroke stuff
until-.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
I understand, but I want to ask like what their
opinion of it is.
No, even what their opinion.
That's a more powerful question, because, as a leader, what
people don't see, that you and Iget to see, is sometimes we
don't believe in it.
But I have to push it downbecause it was pushed to me.
So I'm taking all other thingsaside and trying to get the lead
to know the leader as a humanand saying what is your whole
thoughts about this?
(33:11):
Because what we usually don'tknow as employees is oh, our
boss just sucks.
They made us do it, but theycould be really under pressure
but also trying to keep theirjob.
So I start with the human levelof understanding.
What is your view of this andhow do you feel about it?
And then I would share almosteverything you shared with us in
that letter to explain that forme, my productivity isn't a
(33:32):
keystroke.
I can be less productive withmore keystrokes and get nothing
done, but I like to be presentwhen my strategy calls and take
handwritten notes and lookdirectly in the camera.
So I feel I'm being unfairlytreated for this.
Is there any way we could workaround this so that you
understand?
But I always start withunderstanding of where they come
from, what they believe, andthen clearly articulating my
(33:55):
case before I get to quitting.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
So I'd also ask, right, if we're doing the
keystroke thing, is there anexpectation of how many
keystrokes I'm supposed to haveper minute?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
it's ridiculous, it's actually crazy.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Um, I wouldn't want to work there, jennifer I'll be
honest like look who's talking.
I know I'm talking about myvalue system.
Keep your job.
You cannot live with me.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
But what I will say is that so I'm coming over, she
can't.
She can't because she can cookbut no, listen.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
So I ask the leader, what if any expectation of
metrics that he's got to produceto someone else?
If the answer is none, that isa you and him problem.
That's good, that's really good.
If there's no metric that he'sgot to give to somebody else,
then it's a problem between youand him.
And then you have to say, okay,based on this behavior, this
(34:46):
day, you did this.
This day, you did, did thatthis day, you did this I can't
help but think that you don'ttrust me, right, and that you're
owning what you think.
You're not accusing him of nottrusting you Because you said
the word I Right, I can't helpbut think that you don't trust
me.
Is that your intention, or?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I feel blank when this is happening.
I feel blank because it's notlike I'm blaming him Right.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And so you get to that point and you start to
flesh out why is it important toyou, like what's important to
you about keystrokes.
When I was hired for this job,I thought it would be this
Exactly.
Now it seems like this isimportant, so should I focus on
this and not that?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
That's a deep question and I want to say who
hurt you, dave?
But I'm trying to be thoughtful, because if it's a Dave thing,
it's like who hurt you?
That made you do this, but ifit's not, and it's being pushed
down because of some othermandates, it's so important for
us as employees of all levelswhether we manage people or not
to understand the business.
See, we can be really good atour job as a marketer.
We can be really good as ourjob as a business development
(35:46):
specialist.
You need to be really good atunderstanding the culture that
you're in and, as it shifts,understanding those shifts,
because when you started theyweren't doing that, but now that
they are understanding why, itgoes back to the heart of what
we've been talking about is ourvalue system.
I value honesty and I valuefairness.
I also value good products ofwork.
So if I'm constantly typing,you're going to get the worst
(36:08):
product out of me.
So it all starts with thediscussion, but I do want to
know who hurt Dave.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Who hurt you, dave, who hurt you?
All right.
So what we'd say is this listen, have a honest conversation.
We recommend I don't know aboutyou, but I recommend writing
the conversation out what arethe points that you want to
articulate so that you can beclear headed, even talk to some
other people to get somepotential responses, so that you
(36:34):
can be ready to have a dialogue, but understand what's
important to the job right now.
Be willing to pivot If he saysI want you stroking keys, girl,
go get you one of them.
Little things, they sell themon the internet.
Willing to pivot If he says Iwant you stroking keys, girl, go
get you one of them littlethings, they sell them on the
internet.
I'm going to tell you what.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
But they- or go get you a new job.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Or get you a new job, but until you can go, get the
little thing that keystrokes foryou, because apparently John
Bezos and Amazon sell everythingExactly.
But I would have thatconversation.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
It all starts with a conversation.
It does, and I think we justhave to be willing to be
accountable to thoseconversations, which takes us
back real quick to conflict.
Sometimes those conversationsare hard, depending on what your
appetite or desire is fordealing with real or perceived
conflict, because sometimes whatwe think is going to be
conflict is in our head and whenwe go forward the person just
didn't know and says oh, I cando that for you.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Listen, 95 percent of the time the story in your head
is worse than the reality.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, and I don't have the exact quote.
I'll have to find it.
We'll put it in a caption later.
But George Shaw I think was hisname said the biggest problem
with communication is thethought that it actually
happened.
George Bernard Shaw, georgeBernard Shaw, or something like
that.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Yeah, the biggest single problem, the biggest
fallacy of communication isbelieving that it happened.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Believing that it actually happened.
So you communicated in yourhead, but it never came through
your heart and through yourmouth, and so you're up here all
mad and no one even knowsyou're mad.
So for everybody out herelistening whether you're a
leader working for a leader whomight not be the best leader
actually communicate what you'refeeling and ask for what you
want.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, all right, ayanna, this has been a great
episode.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
We're going to have her back.
We're going to have her back,but I want to give you just a
few minutes to wrap up, tell ussome of your thoughts.
What do you want to share withthe interwebs and the people of?
So your Ball Sucks Now.
What problem is.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I don't think she knows we're related, you know,
because it's our previouspresidents, the first lady,
Michelle Obama, Mrs MichelleObama, with respect, I call you
Aunt Shelly and your husband.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Uncle.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Rock, but anyway, the best advice that she gave us
many, many years ago was whenthey go low, we go high, and I
subscribe to that most of thetime, especially at work.
I want you to model and go highregardless.
However, I think you've hadsome shifts.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Nat.
Oh yeah, she said if I don'trock with you, I ain't coming,
ain't coming.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Now I've been telling y'all to quit and I'm not
saying that lightly, I'm notsaying be starving and you can't
feed your kids and pay yourmortgage and buy shoes.
But if you don't fool withsomething, my question is I
ain't coming in.
Why do y'all keep going back,not recognizing your own value
and potential and that maybe youneed to find the right cultures
that fit for you?
Now I'm not saying quit everyquick, as quickly as I did.
(39:18):
I'm saying think about it, butfind the cultures that fit.
And that requires us to do ourdue diligence and to ask the
right questions.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's right.
All right, that's a wrap.
Y'all Listen, like, share andsubscribe.
We'd love to see you on ourFacebook page.
On our internet, share yourstory on our website,
yourbossupscom.
This is Natalie Parker signingoff.
And remember don't let yourboss suck the life out of you.
Bye.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
(39:47):
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom.
Or, if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
thenatalieparkercom.
Hey, it's me again, Natalie Parker, your host of.
So your Boss Sucks, now what?
And I'm excited, and you knowI'm always excited.
I'm excited because I'm backhere with my homie, my homegirl,
Ayanna Koston, and today we'regoing to be talking about
coaching leaders.
So this episode is about bosseswho either work for bad leaders
(00:22):
or they're a bad leaderthemselves, and we're going to
talk about and dish on you know,as coaches, what we do, what we
see, some of the themes andmotifs.
So if you're an employee, you'restill going to want to listen.
You're still going to want tolisten to this because we're
going to take you behind thecurtain of some things that you
may not know going on.
When someone says your leaderhas a coach, that's kind of what
they mean.
They've called us as, like thelifeline, the call for help, or
(00:45):
even just to help your leadersdevelop.
You're going to want to knowwhat happens behind the curtain.
So stay tuned because we'reabout to talk to my friend,
ayana Costin Remember her linkis going to be in the show notes
.
Make sure to check out herLinkedIn and all of the things
and let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Ayanna, we're back.
Thank you for having me back.
I love these conversations, butI really love them with you as
my friend, as my fellow HRODcoach, so I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I appreciate it.
I appreciate it.
We're going to have some fullrange shenanigans.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
All right, so you are a coach Now.
You've been coaching now onyour own, for the better part of
Four and a half years.
June makes five years.
I'm completely solo, but I'vebeen coaching part-time since
2010.
So it's my 15th year ofcoaching.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am, I remember that year.
All right, so short story.
I took a package from a companyand the whole point was like
I'm going to go and I'm going tostart my own business, and I
was excited, and I was too, foryou.
You were pregnant with my ideas.
So what happened was I took thepackage in February and then,
(02:11):
like two weeks later, Iannounced I had a new job and I
was angry.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
She called and cussed me out y'all.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
She really did.
It was like what in the world,how could you do?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
this to us.
No, I was legitimately angrybecause I saw your potential.
I saw your capacity and I alsoneeded to see through you as my
big sister, but little sister,same age sister, that you could
do it.
I really feel I was probablyangry because you were my hope.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And I didn't know that at the time.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
No, I remember saying how dare you?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
How dare you take a job, listen listen, I needed to
eat and I had no plan because,like we have faith.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
We had.
No, I have a plan.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Listen, faith without work is dead listen, I had no
plan and thank god I had thematurity to know that I had
ideas, but I had no plan offruition but you need that
balance.
you need the crazy one and thepractical one, and I thank God
that I was able to learn that Iwas not ready, because now, at
the age I am, the business isabout to have another birthday.
(03:12):
Shout out to Natalie ParkerEnterprises, where we help
organizations, have healthyrelationships, and we're about
to have another birthday.
What birthday?
It'll be the third this year,so just a few months away from
third birthday of the company.
It's been amazing and I'm muchmore in a different place now
being an entrepreneur than Iwould have been 15 years ago.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I remember the company you love.
I remember the company you'regoing to work for and I remember
how angry I was.
I was like but we had plans tobe entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
You said how could you do this to us?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Maybe give or take, but but I'm so proud of us to
look where we are and I thinksome of it could be the result
of the choices we made becauseof who we worked for and what we
needed for ourselves, and lookat, look at God, look at where
we are today.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yes, we are all different people, so, listen,
we're going to talk aboutcoaching leaders.
Yes, so you, you found yourentree into coaching leaders and
you have worked with a varietyof industries and organizations.
I would say thematically,what's the thing you say that
most leaders are in need of whenit comes to I don't want to say
(04:18):
autocorrect, because there's noautocorrect, but like course
correction in their leadershipstyle?
What's the thing that they'remost in need of?
Like thematically, over your 15years?
What's the thing that they'remost in need of?
Like thematically over your 15years?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
what's the thing that you see consistently?
Well, it's two parts.
It's a listening voice wherethey're truly heard and not
judged.
And you know, right now, thewhole social media thing is we
listen and we don't judge.
I really feel that, first ofall, leaders are in need of that
, because they store so much intheir brain and are just
behaving in the way that theythink the culture wants them to.
So they need us, as executiveand leadership coaches, to truly
(04:49):
listen and to not judge.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And have a safe space to be like listen.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
And that's foundational.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Because I think for so long they'd held it in
because they've been trying toplay the game.
They don't want to take it totheir families.
They don't want to take it totheir friends because their
friends are sick of being freetherapists.
They may not have a therapist,dependent on if they can afford
it or what communities thinkabout therapy, so they just need
that.
That's the foundation.
I think the theme that I'mhearing the most is I don't have
(05:16):
enough skill to do thisleadership thing.
None of them come to me sayingI'm not a good engineer, I'm not
a good scientist, I'm not agood fill in the technical word.
I don't even know what it meansto be a leader, and so I feel
so blessed to coach in thatspace because I happen to love
leadership development becauseof what I've been through, and
so I can mix that with the useof really getting curious and
(05:38):
asking what you want as yourcoach.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well, I think that's a pause for all of the folks out
listening.
Is that give your leaders graceand I say this often is that
most of them have not hadcopious amounts of exposure,
training and coaching on how tolead.
Even if they got a training yousaid copious, or any amounts,
(06:01):
any amounts, right, but I mean,think about it.
Like you learned how to ride abike, you learned how to type.
Most of us who don't type likethis anymore, right, We've
learned things by learning fromothers.
But, leadership is somethingthat many of us learn by
watching, but until you're inthe seat, you don't know how to
do it, and many of us sufferbecause our leaders never got
(06:23):
the space to have someone coachthem on how to lead.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Because they were super employees that did really
good in their job, that becamesupervisors Again back when now
we use the term leadership.
It's so fancy, but you used tohave a boss, you used to have a
supervisor, and then you had amanager and then you had a
director.
So we just became a goodemployee doesn't necessarily
mean that you're going to begood at managing personalities,
people and other work.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Right, and I would also say that I find from a
performance management space, sothat's a space that I love is
that most companies don't assessyour performance as a manager,
as a leader right, they assessyour numbers, they assess your
outcomes, but they're notassessing on these leadership
qualities.
(07:06):
How well did you do ondeveloping your team?
How well did you do on creatingthe next generation of leaders?
How well do you do?
And what you measure gets done,yeah, and so that gap for me is
also a big thing, where I'mlike come on, y'all do better.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
So why do you think they're not doing it?
Why do you think leaders arenot writing down or putting
expectation and measurements inplace for what they expect?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
One.
I think the term leadership isso obtuse.
There's no standard definitioneverywhere, right, so it's
contextual, it's situational Ifyou went to Djibouti right now,
because I guess we said thatlast episode, right, right,
culturally they're doing adifferent definition and so
there's no standard definition.
(07:53):
That's number one.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
We're not going to talk about leadership in America
on this episode, but keep going.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well, I mean, it's an episode about leadership.
And I think it's alsosubjective in many ways, and so
there are very few companiesthat have a good definition of
what leadership is.
Yes, that's number one.
Number two is I'd also say thateveryone thinks they can do it.
Every like.
You and I would not go andassess America's top model.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Cause one we ain't going to do this and we don't
know how many donuts model, butanyway.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
But I mean, but I don't even know what the scoring
is like what a good walk isright, but many cases you have
people who are reporting topeople who are leaders
themselves and they don't knowhow to assess it right, so we
have people who are ill-equippedto assess in the position in
the first place.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
But let me push back a little bit and say yes, and a
lot of people who think thatthey can't because I coach them
too would be the best leaders.
But somewhere in society or theculture of these organizations
they've been told that theycan't.
So some of the best leadersthat I would love to see lead
are afraid to and don't andwon't.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And I don't disagree with that.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
But I'll tell you this Everyone has an opinion
about leadership, right, and so,if you think about it, we are
in the age of opinion, whereeveryone thinks their opinion
matters.
Newsflash it doesn't.
It doesn't, your opinionmatters in certain segment where
people care.
Not everybody cares.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I love you.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Put it in the comments, tell it to the rain,
but at the end of the day, notevery opinion matters and they
don't all matter equally, and so, when you think about it,
everyone has a Monday morningquarterback.
John Madden situation on what aleader should or should not do,
and you don't know until you'rein that seat.
So you're flat out in it, facedin the middle of the field, you
(09:41):
don't know, but we know how itmakes us feel, but that doesn't
mean we know how to do it,because you don't know what's
coming from the top the sidearound and there's no blueprint.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Let's face it there's not one book.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
There's a million leadership books all over the
show.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Jesus was a good leader, jesus was probably the
best right, and Jesus was aservant leader too.
So when we really look at itlike that, it's not the typical
definition that you're not goinginto organizations where
they're like let me bow and washyour feet and be the leader for
you, because I'm the boss, I'min charge, you do for me.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
All right, I wasn't going to make this about Jesus,
but let me tell you so, as aperson of faith, I will live my
entire intersectionality and saythis.
One of the things that I oftentell my husband, who's a pastor,
is the reason why Jesus was thedope leader is because he
walked with the people.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
With, and that's what coaches do.
They walk with you, rightBesides you.
They don't have to know nothingabout you, but they're going to
walk with you, not in front ofyou, and not behind you and that
makes a difference, right?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
So if you're swooping in and leaving and then coming
back and barking orders, like wetalked about earlier, right,
it's not leadership.
You are setting some level ofdirection, but that's not
necessarily and you have to havea clear vision.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Right, and I think a lot of people call themselves
leader, but they can't leadthemselves out of a paper bag or
a box or out their own frontdoors, which they know where the
door is.
So leaders have to have acompelling vision.
That's the whole Kuhn's andPosner's for those who are in a
theory or who-.
The leadership challenge.
What is your compelling vision?
That I will follow you, becausethat's the biggest part of
(11:10):
leadership, not management.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, If you're watching this on YouTube or if
you were on the Facebook page,we'll put it out there.
I want to know what are some ofthe things that you think good
leadership is right.
I'd be interested to hear fromyou all what leadership is to
you.
So if you're on YouTube, goahead and put it in the comments
.
I'd be interested to hear.
So leadership as a definition,we don't have one.
(11:31):
A lot of people who don't wantto lead.
You feel like they should lead.
What are some other things thatyou're seeing from a coaching
context that you wish peopleknew?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I wish people knew how difficult leadership is and
how much of a privilege it is.
And I'm going to start from theclients that I coach that may
be having some difficulty withwho they report into.
They may even be leadersthemselves.
A lot of my coach mostlyC-suite individuals are leaders
of other leaders.
So I think what I wish peopleknew is that leadership is hard,
(12:03):
but it's also privilege.
It's hard because there's noplaybook, and it's also hard,
Natalie, because I don't alwaysthink we get good feedback until
we do something wrong.
So when you're leading andthings are well, no one says
anything to you.
But the minute you misspoke orjudge someone the wrong way or
ask someone to do something,it's like the world falls and
(12:24):
you get demotivated anddiscouraged and almost like shut
down.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I like what you said about not getting feedback, but
I'd also be interested, right,how many of your leaders
actually get feedback from theiremployee base?
Right?
Because what I've leadersactually get feedback from their
employee base.
Right, because what I've foundis, when you're in these
leadership spaces, the peoplethat are reporting to you I
won't say subordinates, becauseI hate that word, but we're
reporting to you legit.
(12:50):
We'll just stop talking to you.
Like it becomes like radiosilence right, Like once last
time, you gave your leader goodfeedback like, oh, John, I
really appreciate how you didthis and this was great, or hey,
good job in the meeting.
And here's why I've done itbefore.
And you know, I think some ofthe leaders thought I was being
condescending.
I'm like no, I really think youdid a great job, so you got to
be authentic with it.
(13:10):
But, like, leaders needencouragement no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
We were on a call and something had happened and I
said I have to give this personfeedback and I did.
But what made it safe for me isI know the person.
They know the amount of loveand care that I have for our
work and the respect I have forthem.
So most people don't givefeedback because it's not
psychologically safe, it's notemotionally safe.
So when I think about this andyou know my brother Khalid,
you'll know exactly who it is Italked to you.
(14:11):
Something happened in a meeting.
I noticed it wasn't overlynegative, but I asked a question
about do you think peopleweren't answering because you
were doing this?
And it was a stacking questionand I wasn't sure if he thought
people weren't asking becausethey didn't have anything to say
.
I said I wasn't asking becauseI didn't know which question to
start with, because I was stuckon the last one and a few came.
(14:31):
So we were on the phone andafter everybody got off I said
do you have a quick minute?
I wanted to give you somefeedback, are you open?
I said do you have a quickminute?
I wanted to give you somefeedback, are you open?
He said yes, it was beautiful.
We talked and in the feedback Ilaughed and said hello, kettle,
this is pot.
I do this so often that Irecognized it because I'm
working on it, which was true.
I'm saying that to say we'renot getting feedback in our
(14:52):
organizations because, asleaders, are we making it safe
for people to tell us wherewe're actually going to listen?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
even if we don't agree.
Well, I think that's importantbecause you have to give people
one the benefit of the doubtthat, even if they don't deliver
it well, that they'redelivering it with the intention
of communicating somethingthat's necessary.
You get to choose whether ornot you take it or leave it.
Fish and bones right it's likea buffet right.
And if you make it safe forthem to say what they feel like
(15:20):
saying, you can work through howit's said to you or how you
might've heard it differently,or litmus tested with other
people that you trust better tocome back and say I heard what
you said, that's not what Iintended and I understand how
you felt.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So after 20 something years of doing some type of HR
leadership, coaching work, Ithink I have like the billion
dollar solution to fix this andI want to get paid for it.
So you know, when this podcastblow up, holler at me, but it's
we have.
Feedback has to become a partof the culture, and so normal
and so necessary that it's oftenwhat we would call in the
(15:53):
business world after actionreview what worked well, what
didn't work so well, what couldmake it more innovative.
So then it's not scary andthreatening.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I think it has to be a part of it.
But here's the deal One.
Many people are in hyperdrivewhen it comes to the
organization.
You just don't get time.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
You just have to act, act, act, act act, act.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You don't, and I don't know that our
organizations value the time ittakes to sit they don't know
that our organizations value thetime it takes to sit and think.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So screw the organizations and do it for
yourself, because, see, that'salso a misnomer.
The organization has to proveit.
What if we just giftedourselves that?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I agree, and you, as a leader, can make time.
And there's the pressure.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
You can tell I don't work in corporate America, no
more, I work for myself.
Listen, listen listen.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
You know what's funny , though.
I will honestly tell you this.
So I was designing aperformance management system
for an organization and theywere like Natalie, this is
really great.
I love what you're saying.
It's a room full of HR peopleand they were like on fire,
hungry and excited about what wewere saying.
And then their next response was, yeah, but they're not going to
do this on the floor becausethey just don't have enough time
(16:59):
.
And I was like, okay, so you'dmean to tell me that if a leader
was in his team, was damagingproduct over and over again, you
would actually take them offthe floor, you would train them,
take time and make sure theyknew how to do it?
Right, of course, because thatproductivity is expensive, right
(17:22):
?
Damaging the product isexpensive.
It's going to move them up, yep, right, and you know.
And so they were like yeah, Isaid so.
Tell me then how, if yourpeople are your most important
asset, that leaders out heredamaging the people aren't more
important to be able to take offthe floor and go ahead and make
sure that they have what theyneed so that they're coaching
them appropriately and givingthem feedback and engaging your
(17:45):
workforce.
If it's more important and it'smore expensive to replace a
person than a product, tell mehow.
That's not the.
So you're a little passionateabout this.
I was hot because I was likethere's a room full of people
who are like you, are thedisciples of, like this is the
thing we do, and you gave me thebusiness response.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
if they don't have time.
But that shows you that peopledon't see it with the same value
, because they only see it oh,if you mess up, I'll pull you
off the floor.
They're not thinking.
We're just not thinkingproactively in organizations and
we're making an excuse that wedon't have time.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
We have to make the time.
I agree, Agreed.
So let's go back to the leadersthat you coach.
C-suite that may have that mayhave leaders that they report to
that are less than seller Cause.
Let's be clear y'all like youmay be like an individual
contributor and have a suckyboss, but I promise you, up and
down the chain people have suckybosses.
Yes, seriously, such to thepoint that sometimes we get
called in to coach them on howto deal with the suckiness.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
All the time we get called in.
So I'm going to say thatsometimes leadership is a ripple
effect Good, bad or indifferent.
Sometimes, if you have ahorrible boss, you may become a
better boss yourself.
Sometimes, if you have ahorrible boss, you keep the
generational curse of beinghorrible going.
But I think, if I'm reallylooking at what are my
executives struggling with thatmay have their own hard boss
themselves.
(19:02):
I'm going to give some realexamples and say I had a
situation recently where I havea person who is a leader and
this person has a leader.
Their boss is not bad in termsof you would think, mean or
nasty or good.
It's almost the opposite.
This particular person that Iwas working with recently has a
boss who's just very personaland not focused on work at all.
(19:23):
Okay, so she's in a positionreporting to a boss who is not
developing her, who's nothelping her to learn, but it's
very nice, very sweet but alsovery personal.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Personal, like she gets in her business.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
They want to tell their business to their employee
, oh, like.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
so the executive is like oh yeah, so yesterday I was
getting my nails done at theblah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
So they're telling all of their personal business.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
It's about them, so their relationship is about them
.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
And some of it is sad business and personal business.
So the employee, who's also aleader, feels sad because she
has empathy for this person andshe doesn't want to be rude and
say I don't want to hear anymore.
Your personal business, how doI develop?
And so here's what we coachthrough, and this is why it's so
important for y'all to thinkabout who you are as a person
and what you want.
As I'm getting to know mycoaching client, I'm realizing
(20:10):
she's so nice and she's so sweet, but so was her boss.
He's so nice and he's so sweet.
Her boss had almost noindication that this even
bothered her, because every timehe comes to her she openly
embraces it.
So to me, she's telling me onething like the boss isn't that
great.
So one of the coachingquestions that we ask as coaches
is what does the person knowabout how you feel?
(20:32):
How much do they know?
Not do they know, cause that'sa closed in question yes or no?
How much do you think theperson knows about how you feel?
And it was a pregnant pause andthe response was well, I don't
want to hurt their feelings.
I didn't ask you anything abouttheir feelings.
I'm curious how much do they?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
know.
You know, what's interesting Isay this often too is that we
feel betrayed when people aremean to us.
We feel betrayed when peopledon't meet our expectations, but
we more betray ourselves whenwe don't advocate for what we
need in a relationship.
You betray yourself when youdon't are so many deep roots.
(21:10):
Listen, um, there's a guy namedJerry Harvey who wrote a book.
He wrote the road to Abilene.
You're familiar with that,where we all go together, but we
really never wanted to go inthe first place.
Google it, it's great, um, butwe really never wanted to go in
the first place.
Google it, it's great.
But then there's also he wrotethis book called how Come Every
Time I Stab, I Find a?
No, how Come Every Time I Finda Knife in my Back?
(21:31):
My Fingerprints Are on the.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Knife On the knife.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Oh yeah, how Come I Get Stabbed Every time I get
stabbed in the back?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
my fingerprints are on the knife.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
And the premise of this book is that listen when
people are terrible to you andyou know the terribleness is
happening and you don't call itout.
You are a culprit to your owndemise.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Exactly, and that's what I want people to understand
.
It's not always the bad leadersand what we think like they're
being rude or they're being mean.
This person isn't getting whatthey need from their leader.
But they're also coming tocoaching to say but I don't know
how to.
So one of the things that we doin coaching is sometime in
alignment meeting where I meetwith you as the client and your
boss to say are we in alignmenton what the goal of coaching is?
(22:09):
We're not going to tell youeverything we talk about.
So I challenged this particularclient to ask their boss for
what they need, and it was a bitof nervousness at first.
They were like well, what doyou mean I should ask.
I said, well, you said you'renot sure if they know.
So they did Right then, andthere I was so proud of them.
And they said I would like morestructured feedback.
I want more feedback about whenI'm doing something wrong.
And the boss instantly openedup and literally said something
(22:33):
on the facts of yeah, I havebeen talking all personal things
.
Okay, I can do that, and it wasthat simple and that easy.
However, comma, I interjectedand said what would it look like
if we just called it feedback,not just bad, because sometimes
you're not getting any feedbackbecause you're doing such a
wonderful job.
So then we made this agreementto say we're just going to do
more feedback.
(22:53):
And then they said I want tostart with the business stuff to
see what was happening.
They were getting hijacked withthe other stuff and then his
time is out.
Do you have any work?
Things In the last 30 seconds.
Really interesting too, thatthat person, then the leader,
the executive, gave feedback tothe person right at the end of
the meeting about something thatthey could do different and
better.
Person accepted it, talked alittle bit about why they
(23:15):
behaved and then, when theleader hung up, the person said
I'm so sorry, ayanna.
I said for what?
I just lost my composure.
I was so defensive, I justdidn't handle this well.
And I looked and I said Ididn't see that.
I saw a very well-composed, puttogether person who said thank
you.
I was more distraught, as thecoach and I'm supposed to have
management, that they did it inthe way that they did it, but I
(23:35):
didn't get anything from youexcept a smile, right?
What's the moral of the story?
The moral is sometimes thefight we have is in our head
Fully and the conversation's inyour head.
So what requests do we make ofleaders?
It's our job to sometimes makea better leader by asking them
for what we need and just stopit.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
But I think that goes for any relationship.
You can't be mad at anyone forexpectations you have not
articulated nor asked for it,because you can articulate it.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
But it's another thing to ask.
I can articulate I'm angry andI'm frustrated, but then I have
to ask could you stop leavingyour sock on the floor or the
cabinets open?
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Listen Fair, but I think at the end of the day,
it's.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I have an expectation .
This is my expectation of you.
Can you meet it or not?
Because if they say listen andif you don't leave because I'm
the queen of leaving no, no, no,don't do that she's going to
tell you to quit.
No, no, no, don't do that,because that's another episode,
don't leave.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I'm saying working out, but I think, and it's okay
if they say yes and they, buteither way, when someone shows
you who they are, maya.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Angelou said believe them and believe them the first
time.
And believe them the first time.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
But then be okay with the fact that, like you know
what this is just not somethingyou can do, and don't hold them
hostage to the expectationanymore, because now you're just
you know.
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on meRight.
(25:09):
It's acceptance too, becausewith that comes I did ask and I
have to accept.
So now how do I work aroundthat?
By accepting it, just knowingthat they're not able or willing
, or both Right.
So we were having aconversation, so we are here on
set and it's a wonderful time.
We're talking to a colleaguewho's here and we asked her the
question like what's one thingas a coach you wish everyone
knew?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And the answer was how to deal with and manage
conflict.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Now, I said in season one, you have to plan for your
conflict.
You have to practice conflictbefore you have it, map out your
pathway and the things that youwill or will not do, understand
your triggers.
But at the end of the day, ifyou don't learn anything else in
a business environment, knowinghow to have conflict and manage
conflict is probably one of thebiggest challenges that we see
(25:51):
consistently throughout ourcareers.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, and you know what she said.
Her name is Krista.
She's here with us today.
It's kind of like almost likestarting at ground zero is kind
of what I heard.
That I'm constantly having tosay, like this is a normal part
of it.
It's conflict because thepeople that come to her for the
help that they need as a coachor an HR are usually only coming
because they're conflict.
(26:14):
Not many people are comingbecause things went well and
let's celebrate the big bonusesand the joy that we got together
.
They're only coming when we hitconflict.
But I think you were sayingthis earlier in one of your
other podcasts conflict helps usgrow and it actually helps us
get to the best side of therelationship, because without it
we may not have gotten there.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Listen nothing moves or grows without friction.
You said that.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Your car does not move without friction.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
A plant does not grow unless it creates friction out
of the ground.
We all need the friction.
One of my favorite scripturessays, as iron sharpens iron so
sharpens the one person inanother right.
But here's the deal Iron making, sword making.
As iron sharpens iron, so doesthe countenance of one man
sharpen another.
It is really violent.
(26:58):
It's a very violent thing.
If you've ever seen somebodymake a sword, it is a violent
thing.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
It sounds violent too .
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Thousands of degrees in heat, you pull it out and
then you take another piece ofmetal and you hammer it over and
over again to shape it and moldit To what you want it to be
and to make it sharp, exactly.
And I think that when it comesto conflict, we shy away from it
.
I, on the other hand, when Ifirst started my career, I was
(27:25):
winning Guns blazing.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
You know, it's that whole theory.
I don't know who made it.
Moving away, moving towards andmoving against.
I was like come on, I'm comingtowards you.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I'm not afraid of no ghosts.
I ain't afraid of no ghosts.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I was going into it, but I also think this is an
important conversation because aworkforce is made of people,
culturally, that come fromdifferent places.
I grew up in a household whereI went to church with my great
grandmama, but my mama and mygrandmom never really stepped
foot into a church and they wasa cussing family.
I thought we was the Navy,because everything was a curse
word and everything was a fight.
It was normal and it wasnatural to fight and then go
(28:00):
have ice cream.
Other people might grow up infamilies where conflict is the
worst thing ever and you don'taddress it.
So think about all that and thecompassion we need to have that
all of these different peopleand all the different ways we
were brought are now in oneenvironment with no guidebook,
and now some people are passive,aggressive to conflict.
Some people are like we were inour twenties boom, let's go.
(28:21):
Cause it was fun.
It wasn't even a bad thing.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
No, I'm just going'm gonna.
I thought I was gonna be alawyer.
Listen me too, guns blazingexactly like I will.
I will argue you down with allof the facts very quickly, make
my point and then leave youbleeding.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And I didn't know I cut you and I would cuss you out
without ever cussing, and smileand people say what just
happened to me exactly and Ithink one thing that I found is
um working with some otherclients as well, is that the
cultural differences right.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I have folks that work in different countries and
they're like oh my.
God, they're so loud.
Or oh my God, they won't saywhat they mean, but they'll say
it to everybody else.
Or oh my gosh, they're soaggressive.
All of these things matter andit's important for us to figure
that out.
So you've been coaching now for15 years.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
But I'm only 12.
No, I'm just joking.
I've been coaching for 15 yearsand loving it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
One of the things that's always interesting to me
is when we're called in to coacha performance issue that the
leader who hired you doesn'twant to fix themselves.
This does happen.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
And the coach is magically supposed to fix it.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Well, bob isn't producing or Bob doesn't know
that everybody hates the way heengages with them and they
haven't given him the feedback.
And the coach is brought in todo a 360 and an assessment and
all of these other things,because don't nobody want to
talk to Bob.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And oh, by the way, if it doesn't work, ayana, tell
us so that we can get rid of Boband I have to say whoa, time
out.
So the recovering HR part of meknows that we're not going to
do that in HR.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Part of me knows that we're not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You're also spending a lot of money just to get rid
of someone.
And we don't want to look likethe assassins.
We do not, and I will never be,even in HR.
And so I think coaching is sucha beautiful thing because, yes,
you brought me into Coach Bob,but 90% of the time I say, well,
can I offer you some coaching?
What do you know about it?
Would you mind starting here?
Or I just naturally start tocoach, to ask them some of the
questions before I even go, andone of my favorite questions is
(30:09):
what have you already shared?
Not what do you think they know.
What have you already shared?
And the stories are hilariousbecause it's a lot of beating
around the bush.
They haven't said anything, butthey think we should explicitly
know.
So that's, I just think thatthat's a big part of it.
So I think coaching them tohelp them understand what it is
and what it's not, and for us tohold our integrity and ethics
(30:30):
as certified coaches is to saythis is not a part of what I'm
able to do.
This is what I'd like you to do.
This is what I can offer.
That's the hardest and thefunniest part, because people
don't want to be the bad police.
They want us to do it for a lotof money too, y'all.
People don't want to be the badpolice, they want us to do it
for a lot of money too.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Y'all Facts Not cheap , not cheap, not cheap.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
It's letter time.
It's letter time, let's do.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Letter time let's hear a letter, it's mail time.
This letter is from Jennifer,marketing coordinator for Malls
in Texas.
Dear Say your Boss, sex.
I need help.
My manager, dave, has takenmicromanagement to an insane
level.
Our company rolled out trackingsoftware to monitor remote
(31:11):
employees and I now get messagesevery hour questioning why my
activity dropped.
If I stepped away to take abathroom break or read a report
without moving my mouse, I getan email asking what I'm doing.
Last Monday I was on a45-minute strategy call engaging
in an actual discussion about amajor client project.
After the meeting, my bossasked why my keystroke count was
(31:35):
low during the time.
He didn't care that I hadactually been actively
contributing ideas.
He just saw that I wasn'ttyping, so I must not have been
working.
I understand the need foraccountability, but I feel like
I'm being treated as a machineinstead of a marketer.
The constant monitoring makesme feel like I moved into a
digital prison and it's causingme stress.
(31:55):
I'm getting my work done, butit doesn't seem to matter unless
I'm clicking the mouse nonstop.
How do I get my boss to trustthat I'm actually working
without having to put on aperformance?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
sincerely tired of being you better answer first,
because I am the queen ofquitting and have some questions
, but I'm not gonna start there.
I really want to help.
What's her first name?
Oh, oh.
Jennifer, sorry, jennifer okay,I really want to help Jennifer,
so I'm not going to go withshe's going to tell you to quit.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
It's going to end.
No, I'm not.
I'm really not.
But do you want to start first?
You want my opinion?
You're going to tell her toquit.
It's going to end, we're goingto talk about all the
opportunities?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I'm really not, but do you want to start first or
you want my opinion?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
You're going to tell her to quit, but go ahead.
No, I'm not, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
What I'm going to coach you through.
When it comes to maybe yourboss stopping is to earlier what
we talked about.
Sometimes it's a system thing,so I want to go to understanding
before I go to action.
So I want to ask my boss aquestion Like how did we come up
with this thing?
Like I kind of understand, likeremote workers, it started
during COVID.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I didn't know they were doing keystroke stuff
until-.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
I understand, but I want to ask like what their
opinion of it is.
No, even what their opinion.
That's a more powerful question, because, as a leader, what
people don't see, that you and Iget to see, is sometimes we
don't believe in it.
But I have to push it downbecause it was pushed to me.
So I'm taking all other thingsaside and trying to get the lead
to know the leader as a humanand saying what is your whole
thoughts about this?
(33:11):
Because what we usually don'tknow as employees is oh, our
boss just sucks.
They made us do it, but theycould be really under pressure
but also trying to keep theirjob.
So I start with the human levelof understanding.
What is your view of this andhow do you feel about it?
And then I would share almosteverything you shared with us in
that letter to explain that forme, my productivity isn't a
(33:32):
keystroke.
I can be less productive withmore keystrokes and get nothing
done, but I like to be presentwhen my strategy calls and take
handwritten notes and lookdirectly in the camera.
So I feel I'm being unfairlytreated for this.
Is there any way we could workaround this so that you
understand?
But I always start withunderstanding of where they come
from, what they believe, andthen clearly articulating my
(33:55):
case before I get to quitting.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
So I'd also ask, right, if we're doing the
keystroke thing, is there anexpectation of how many
keystrokes I'm supposed to haveper minute?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
it's ridiculous, it's actually crazy.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Um, I wouldn't want to work there, jennifer I'll be
honest like look who's talking.
I know I'm talking about myvalue system.
Keep your job.
You cannot live with me.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
But what I will say is that so I'm coming over, she
can't.
She can't because she can cookbut no, listen.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
So I ask the leader, what if any expectation of
metrics that he's got to produceto someone else?
If the answer is none, that isa you and him problem.
That's good, that's really good.
If there's no metric that he'sgot to give to somebody else,
then it's a problem between youand him.
And then you have to say, okay,based on this behavior, this
(34:46):
day, you did this.
This day, you did, did thatthis day, you did this I can't
help but think that you don'ttrust me, right, and that you're
owning what you think.
You're not accusing him of nottrusting you Because you said
the word I Right, I can't helpbut think that you don't trust
me.
Is that your intention, or?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I feel blank when this is happening.
I feel blank because it's notlike I'm blaming him Right.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And so you get to that point and you start to
flesh out why is it important toyou, like what's important to
you about keystrokes.
When I was hired for this job,I thought it would be this
Exactly.
Now it seems like this isimportant, so should I focus on
this and not that?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
That's a deep question and I want to say who
hurt you, dave?
But I'm trying to be thoughtful, because if it's a Dave thing,
it's like who hurt you?
That made you do this, but ifit's not, and it's being pushed
down because of some othermandates, it's so important for
us as employees of all levelswhether we manage people or not
to understand the business.
See, we can be really good atour job as a marketer.
We can be really good as ourjob as a business development
(35:46):
specialist.
You need to be really good atunderstanding the culture that
you're in and, as it shifts,understanding those shifts,
because when you started theyweren't doing that, but now that
they are understanding why, itgoes back to the heart of what
we've been talking about is ourvalue system.
I value honesty and I valuefairness.
I also value good products ofwork.
So if I'm constantly typing,you're going to get the worst
(36:08):
product out of me.
So it all starts with thediscussion, but I do want to
know who hurt Dave.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Who hurt you, dave, who hurt you?
All right.
So what we'd say is this listen, have a honest conversation.
We recommend I don't know aboutyou, but I recommend writing
the conversation out what arethe points that you want to
articulate so that you can beclear headed, even talk to some
other people to get somepotential responses, so that you
(36:34):
can be ready to have a dialogue, but understand what's
important to the job right now.
Be willing to pivot If he saysI want you stroking keys, girl,
go get you one of them.
Little things, they sell themon the internet.
Willing to pivot If he says Iwant you stroking keys, girl, go
get you one of them littlethings, they sell them on the
internet.
I'm going to tell you what.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
But they- or go get you a new job.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Or get you a new job, but until you can go, get the
little thing that keystrokes foryou, because apparently John
Bezos and Amazon sell everythingExactly.
But I would have thatconversation.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
It all starts with a conversation.
It does, and I think we justhave to be willing to be
accountable to thoseconversations, which takes us
back real quick to conflict.
Sometimes those conversationsare hard, depending on what your
appetite or desire is fordealing with real or perceived
conflict, because sometimes whatwe think is going to be
conflict is in our head and whenwe go forward the person just
didn't know and says oh, I cando that for you.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Listen, 95 percent of the time the story in your head
is worse than the reality.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, and I don't have the exact quote.
I'll have to find it.
We'll put it in a caption later.
But George Shaw I think was hisname said the biggest problem
with communication is thethought that it actually
happened.
George Bernard Shaw, georgeBernard Shaw, or something like
that.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Yeah, the biggest single problem, the biggest
fallacy of communication isbelieving that it happened.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Believing that it actually happened.
So you communicated in yourhead, but it never came through
your heart and through yourmouth, and so you're up here all
mad and no one even knowsyou're mad.
So for everybody out herelistening whether you're a
leader working for a leader whomight not be the best leader
actually communicate what you'refeeling and ask for what you
want.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, all right, ayanna, this has been a great
episode.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
We're going to have her back.
We're going to have her back,but I want to give you just a
few minutes to wrap up, tell ussome of your thoughts.
What do you want to share withthe interwebs and the people of?
So your Ball Sucks Now.
What problem is.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I don't think she knows we're related, you know,
because it's our previouspresidents, the first lady,
Michelle Obama, Mrs MichelleObama, with respect, I call you
Aunt Shelly and your husband.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Uncle.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Rock, but anyway, the best advice that she gave us
many, many years ago was whenthey go low, we go high, and I
subscribe to that most of thetime, especially at work.
I want you to model and go highregardless.
However, I think you've hadsome shifts.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Nat.
Oh yeah, she said if I don'trock with you, I ain't coming,
ain't coming.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Now I've been telling y'all to quit and I'm not
saying that lightly, I'm notsaying be starving and you can't
feed your kids and pay yourmortgage and buy shoes.
But if you don't fool withsomething, my question is I
ain't coming in.
Why do y'all keep going back,not recognizing your own value
and potential and that maybe youneed to find the right cultures
that fit for you?
Now I'm not saying quit everyquick, as quickly as I did.
(39:18):
I'm saying think about it, butfind the cultures that fit.
And that requires us to do ourdue diligence and to ask the
right questions.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's right.
All right, that's a wrap.
Y'all Listen, like, share andsubscribe.
We'd love to see you on ourFacebook page.
On our internet, share yourstory on our website,
yourbossupscom.
This is Natalie Parker signingoff.
And remember don't let yourboss suck the life out of you.
Bye.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Natalie Parker
(39:47):
Enterprises, where we shape thefuture and unlock potential by
helping organizations and peoplework together to do good work.
Find out more atthenatalieparkercom.
Or, if you'd like to be asponsor, email us at info at
thenatalieparkercom.
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