S3 E2: The Power of Second Chair: Leading, When You're Not In Charge

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In this episode, George Borum shares his transformative journey through 15 years of educational leadership, surviving 11 different bosses while maintaining his commitment to student success and learning the value of playing the supporting role.

• Understanding the power of being in the "second chair" leadership position
• How playing supporting roles teaches valuable leadership skills, like Scottie Pippen alongside Michael Jordan
• The importance of connecting personally with staff members beyond classroom performance
• Why bad leadership creates toxic workplace environments that hurt student outcomes
• How school culture and staff culture are interdependent, not separate considerations
• The evolution of charter schools and providing educational options for families
• Challenges of the "no excuses" model in education and its impact on students
• Building meaningful parent partnerships by having honest, jargon-free conversations
• Creating a Montessori charter school that makes innovative learning accessible to all
• Learning from both good and bad leadership examples to develop your authentic style

If you're interested in supporting Schenectady Scholar Charter School or learning more about George's work blending Montessori principles with charter school accessibility, check out these links: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/schenectady-scholars-charter-school/posts/?feedView=all

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Episode Transcript

Natalie Parker (00:00):
Michael Jordan never won any championships
without Scottie Pippen, likethat's the one thing people
always forget.
Michael Jordan never made it tothe playoffs without Scottie
Pippen and Scottie Pippen madeit to the playoffs without
Michael Jordan.

George Borum (00:11):
George Borume has survived 11 bosses in 15 years
and still believed enough ineducation to start his own
school.
That's either insanity orexactly the kind of radical hope
that we need.
Born in Queens and raised inJersey, he's shaped by over 16
years of urban education andhe's not just an educator, he's
a systems disruptor.
He's taught, led, been inclassrooms and in charter

(00:36):
schools, spending 15transformative years at the
Henry Johnson Charter School inAlbany, from teaching first
grade to leading as a principal.
He's seen and survived thebureaucracy, the burnout and the
bosses who break more than theybuild.
In fact, with those 15 yearsand 11 bosses, he somehow has

(00:57):
seen enough and still believesin education to launch his own
school.
Now he's the visionary behindSchenectady Scholar Charter
School.
He's redefining what it meansto educate our kids with
excellence and empathy.
A National Fellow of LiberatedEd and an emerging leader with
the American Montessori Society,he's commissioned to blend

(01:17):
rigorous academics with culturalresponsive care.
In this episode we talk aboutsurviving bad leadership, the
hidden damages of no excuseseducation, what makes a bad
teacher a better one, and howhis soft-spoken strength and
radical accountability arehelping re-image school culture
from the inside out.
Get ready, because this is notjust about school.

(01:40):
This is about the soul of work,and George Borm is here to
teach us class.
George, welcome to the show.

(02:02):
It's so good to have you, thankyou so much for having me.

Natalie Parker (02:04):
It's my pleasure for being on your show today.

George Borum (02:07):
Listen, we're going to have a great time
because the conversation we hadjust to prepare for this was so
much fun.
So tell me how a guy like yougoes from playing basketball to
going into teaching.

Natalie Parker (02:19):
Oh man.
So growing up in New York Cityand growing up in Far Rockaway,
queens, new York, it was like abirthright.
If you grow up and you're amale in New York City, you're
like you're given a pacifier anda basketball.
So pretty much that's prettymuch how you get started.
So growing up living in NewYork City until we moved to
sunny New Jersey when I wasabout 10 years old, playing

(02:39):
basketball was just a way oflife.
So as I got older, you know Iwas good, never great.
I was never that tall to everget a Division I scholarship,
but I was able to get a nice.
I was able to get to go to aDivision III school, play a
little bit of basketball there,realized I wasn't going to go to
the NBA, I wasn't going to beable to live out my hoop dreams.
So I figured, you know, let mefocus on school.

(03:01):
So what I ended up doing wasfocusing on my bachelor's degree
, getting that, and then Iminored in education and while I
was there I wanted to be ableto kind of get back all the
knowledge that I got fromcoaching and so I decided to
open up the Yellow Pages andcontact all the local high
schools in the Portland mainarea.
One got back to me and I was avolunteer assistant coach for my

(03:22):
last three years.
So that's how I kind of gotinto coaching and everything
else.

George Borum (03:27):
So for our younger listeners.
Oh, I forgot.
Before there were the interwebs, there were books that were
sent to your house that were Idon't know as thick as I don't
know.
Are there?

Natalie Parker (03:42):
any books as thick as books, because we don't
use dictionaries anymore either, so can't even say thick like a
dictionary.

George Borum (03:50):
So these archives, these ancient relics of
civilization, or a good 12 or 24inches thick, and they had
phone numbers in them, becausewe had no other way to contact
people than to finding theirphone number in the phone book.

Natalie Parker (04:06):
And you had to know alphabetical order.
They had different sections.
They had phone numbers of names.
You really had to know yourinformation on who you were
trying to contact, because you'dbe calling random people for
hours until you got the rightperson.

George Borum (04:18):
So yeah, it's like oh, his name is Anthony Brown
and they were like.
You have just made me feelextremely old.

Natalie Parker (04:25):
I apologize for that.

George Borum (04:26):
Thank you very much.
I think it's over All right, soyou looked in the phone book,
yeah.

Natalie Parker (04:32):
I called him up and one coach got back to me
Coach Russo in Portland MaineHigh School and he was like sure
.
He later on he said I thoughtyou were only going to last a
week.
You ended up lasting threeyears.
It was a great experience forme to be able to learn how to
coach but also being around highschool kids.

(04:52):
But it also taught me how toplay the second role to the
leader right next to them andbeing able to be that comfort
for students.
But I was able to take that onas a leadership role as I kind
of got older into education, asI kind of got older into
education to learn how to playthat excellent secondary role
like that second pivot in yourbuilding to just be that support
for staff as well.

George Borum (05:12):
All right, so the two things I want to kind of
pull the thread on here is oneis I just want to just put a
penny in the meter or quarter ofthe meter to talk about the
tenacity it took to like justkeep making phone calls, like
talk to me about that in yourlife.
And then I want to go to thesecond, the second chair
conversation.
So let's talk about like that,Like when did you get that

(05:33):
tenacious Cause?
I don't know if I'd have calledit so.

Natalie Parker (05:35):
I was like bored and I was just like you know
I'm doing all this work in and Ijust I've been playing
basketball my entire life andjust I think sometimes when you
go to college they tell you toturn the switch off and if
you've been playing sports andyou've been playing sports since
you were like five or six yearsold when you get to college and
you can't play anymore, it'sjust like you took a piece of my
identity.
Yeah, it takes a piece of youridentity away from you.

(05:56):
It's just like I've been doingthis activity my entire life.
It's been who I've been, howpeople have recognized me, and I
was just like you know what letme just open this book up and
I've always been like that.
I've always been someone who'sbeen like you know, basketball
has been helpful for me becauseI was able to work on my skills
by myself and I've tried to takeeverything that I've kind of

(06:17):
done with that.
If I wasn't a good reader, Iwanted to be the best reader in
class.
If I wasn't good at this, Iwanted to be able to improve.
And I try to take all thoseskills that I've learned from
basketball and kind of impliedit to the rest of my life just
to be helpful and supportive ofme.

George Borum (06:30):
So I like that, I like that a lot.
Again, I don't know that Iwould have called everyone,
thank you, thank you.
Kudos to you, sir.
So let's talk about the secondchair thing.
You know there was a movie it'sprobably at least six or seven
years old called 20 Feet Fromthe Start, and we talk about the
backup singers to lead singersand you know you'd be surprised

(06:54):
how many current singers orolder singers were backup
singers to now celebrities.

Natalie Parker (06:59):
right, talk to me about like when you realized
the value of being in the secondchair and like why you weren't
salivating over that first seatwhen I was able to be the
assistant coach of the JV coach,I realized that he could be
able to really push the kids andbe able to get them to a point
of demanding a lot of them andwhen they got frustrated they

(07:21):
would go to the end of the benchand sulk lot of them.
And when they got frustratedthey would go to the end of the
bench and sulk.
And it was my job and myresponsibility to go and rub
their back and making sure likelisten, I know the coach just
said such and such to you.
You're feeling some type of way, but we need you, we need your
support, we need you to go backout there.
So get yourself together, let'stalk about what the issue is,
figure it out.
And we got to get right backout there.
So I learned in that three yearshow to play like that secondary

(07:44):
role, how to be able to besupportive in the role.
That was needed.
So I think that was the biggeststep that I was able to gain
was how can I be supportive ofthe leader by being in the
second chair?
What do they need me to play sothe organization, the team, can
run and be more functioning?
So that was the biggest piece Iwas able to learn, and I
learned that at such a young age.
I learned it from 19 to 21.

(08:05):
So it really helped me as I gotolder when it was time for me
to be in like a leadership role.

George Borum (08:12):
I'm going to stay here, george, because I think
it's such a powerful lesson.
A lot of people that are veryskilled, that have just raw
talent, often sit in the secondchair and they are very scornful
, very it's an old word scornful, but they're very just critical

(08:32):
of the person in the firstchair.
Like talk to me about you knowwhat you've seen, especially as
an educator, and you've been aneducator for decades now.
Right, like, so talk to meabout what you've seen, in
contrast to like how you do itversus other people.

Natalie Parker (08:46):
We all want to be able to say like we're the
one in charge, and when you'rean educator, any education that
tells you that they're not acontrol freak, they're
absolutely lying.
We're all control freaks.
Anybody who's in education,anybody who's a teacher, a TA,
doesn't know.
We're all control freaks.
That's why we got intoeducation, so we can control and
manage this room.
We use those words, but we'reall control freaks.
So, first and foremost, anyeducator is a control freak by

(09:09):
nature so, but for me, playinglike that second role was
important because I think ithelps support everyone around
you.
So when I became like ateaching assistant, there was a
lead teacher and I was theassistant teacher, so the
support he or she needed of meat that particular time.
I would always start it off bylike, what do you need me to do?

(09:29):
Okay, if you need me to dothose things, I'm going to
maximize those things that youneed for me to be able to do.
And then when I became a deanor assistant principal or
anything else and including inyou know I've been married for
15 years and you know we arefantastic parents, because I
always say there are things I doreally, really, really well as
a parent and I maximize that.

(09:51):
Like I go well and beyond overthose things and anything that
I'm weak at, my wife picks me upfrom that area and vice versa.
And it's the same thing in theclassroom.
It's the same thing inleadership.
I almost feel like a lot ofpeople don't want to be Scottie
Pippen, but a lot of peopledon't want to be co-president or
vice president, but you learnso much from the position that
you have.
It could provide you the toolsthat you need to be a good

(10:13):
leader.

George Borum (10:18):
He never did.

Natalie Parker (10:18):
He got some headache now because he's
talking about things that he'sspiteful about, but at the time,
in the moment, people realizeMichael Jordan never won any
championships without ScottiePippen.
Like that's the one thingpeople always forget Michael
Jordan never made it to theplayoffs without Scottie Pippen

(10:39):
and Scottie Pippen made it tothe playoffs without Michael
Jordan.
And those are the things thatwe kind of sometimes forget.
Like playing that second role.
You learn a lot from that spot.

George Borum (10:52):
Again for the younger audience.
We want to share with you thatI'm sure you know who Michael
Jordan is, but Scottie Pippenwas the Robin to the Batman.

Natalie Parker (11:05):
Everyone uses him as the prototype for any
sport.
He is the Robin to such andsuch Batman.

George Borum (11:12):
He is but I think this is a really good
conversation to have.
I promise you.
I don't know that I thought wewere going to talk about this at
all, but the idea offollowership, even when you have
bad leadership, is so importantbecause it's easy to be
critical of your leader andlisten.

(11:33):
I have my own critiques of aton of people, but you never
know what it's like until you do.

Natalie Parker (11:38):
And the most creative people we've had.
We all think of them.
Steep jobs, like everyone thatwe've always thought of.
Like they've had somebody intheir back who is doing that
grind and working hard andmaking sure things were getting
done.
So like you have to be soself-aware to understand that,
like I'm not going to get any ofthis limelight, like I'm not

(11:58):
going to get any of this likeshine, I'm not going to be on
any magazines, I'm not going tobe at the top of news, but
everyone in this company isgoing to know it wouldn't have
worked if that person wasn'tthere.
Like that's what you need totake with you.

George Borum (12:15):
And I would even go a step further to say that a
lot of people who play that roledon't even want that kind of
shine right.
It's important for us,especially if we're in the
second, want that kind of shineright.
It's important for us,especially if we're in the
second, third or fourth seat, toreally define what success is
in that seat right, rather thantrying to get, you know, some
level of pop, especially in theage where everybody wants to be

(12:36):
Right, so, so, so, let's talk.
So let's talk about your entreeinto education.
So you were the coach and youdecide, like you know what I
want to teach the baby.
Oh, that first year was awful.

Natalie Parker (12:50):
It was awful, like every first year teacher is
, and I look back on it 16 yearsinto it now thinking how much
of a poor teacher I was thatthose students had to get me in
my first year.
Like, research says thatteachers are better in their
third year, so I can onlyimagine, like how ineffective of

(13:12):
a teacher that I was.
And it takes a lot to beself-aware to understand like.
I had them for 10 months and Iwasn't the most proficient at
what I was doing.
I tried my absolute best.
I came in every day, tried toimprove and got better within
that 10 months.
But that first year was tough.
From classroom management tounderstanding curriculum, to
understanding kids, tounderstanding parents, to

(13:33):
getting them to understand whatI'm asking them to do.
It was extremely hard in thatfirst year.

George Borum (13:38):
So classroom management is like the time
management to deliver whatyou've planned.
Curriculum design is like OK,here's what I want to teach them
, and am I effective, or notAbsolutely.

Natalie Parker (13:49):
I remember that first week we had Fun Friday and
my lead teacher, who hadseveral years of experience.
They were going to a teacherlead meeting and I got them all
by myself for 30 minutes.
I was like, ok, we're going todo something absolute fun 25
first graders.
I was like, okay, we're goingto do something absolute fun 25
first graders.
I'm thinking I got this, noproblem.
No, they absolutely wore me outfor that 30 minutes, to the

(14:10):
point where I needed my parentliaison to come in and
absolutely save my life andprobably save my job that week
because the class was that bad.
She came in, said like fourwords and everyone got quiet and
I've been speaking for like 30minutes and she did it in 30
seconds and she gave me the bestpiece of advice I ever said
said you better get it togetheror they're gonna walk over you
for the next nine months.

(14:31):
You're gonna hate coming hereevery day.
So I got it together.

George Borum (14:34):
After then, that is so funny.
So what?
How did you stay motivatedafter the kids ate your lunch
that first year?
Like because in a lot of Ican't imagine failing my first
year of anything Right, Like inthe environments I've been in

(14:54):
like you've got to put points onthe board.
There's not a whole lot of roomfor error in this teacher
series.
I've heard most teachers saylike yeah, look the first one.
Just it's kind of like whenyou're taking score and it's
like just throw out the lowestscore kind of thing.

Natalie Parker (15:11):
Like teachers kind of just accept that that
first year was a wash, because Ithink sometimes you forget like
you don't know, and you can goand do a teacher prep program.
You can do student teaching,but it doesn't prepare you for
the first day of school.
You have those faces lookingback at you and they know
without knowing.
We always say like kids canjust smell the fear in a teacher

(15:32):
when they first walk in.
And I don't think that as muchas I used to.
But they can tell when you'renot prepared.
And there were days when I wasnot prepared and I and I didn't
know my content.
I I didn't know my lesson.
I didn't know what I was goingto do if a student did A, and as
I got better with my craft, Icould start planning out.
If a student was doing this,this is what I'm going to do.
I knew the content better, soit just started to flow

(15:56):
naturally better.
I was able to give the kidsmore of my personality and was
able to understand them a lotmore.
So once you get out of thatfirst year it's like yeah, you
just got to make it out of thefirst year.
You can make it out of thefirst year unscathed and you
feel like you want to come back.
That's the success.
Make it out of your first yearwith some level of success.
You'll be a great teachercoming down the road, I promise.

(16:18):
All right, so you make it outthat first year.

George Borum (16:21):
Then what happens?
You decide to stay.
Tell me about like your firstbad boss.

Natalie Parker (16:26):
Oh man, I've had so many so in education and the
first one was the first one.

George Borum (16:32):
Give me the first one.

Natalie Parker (16:33):
First principal I had.
She stayed in our office everysingle day, never left, ever.
And the only time she left heroffice was when we knew somebody
was getting fired because shewould be walking around, someone
she just interviewed.
So we would all startwhispering she never up here.
We were like, oh, somebodygetting fired, who getting fired
today?
Somebody gone, somebody's gone.

(16:55):
So we knew and we always wouldknow, and this was very messed
up because all the lead teachersat that time were white and all
like the TAs were like black.
So we knew if she was walkingaround, someone who was black
was like some TAs getting firedtoday, someone's got to go,
someone's on the block.
So it was just like the waythat she manipulated like the

(17:16):
staffing there wasn't conducivefor us to have a very good like
working sort of relationship,especially around race.
So whenever we saw those sortsof things, everyone picked up on
it really, really quick andeven though we tried to have
conversations around that, itwas never like understood, like
what that appearance looked likeif you were a black or brown

(17:36):
staff member see there's so muchto talk about so oh, absolutely
your little undergroundrailroad of knowing the things
right.

George Borum (17:52):
So in every, yeah, in every company, in every
network there's there's anunderground of people who know
the things that are going on.
So you all have theseconversations and I would
imagine both the teachers andthe tas knew it, because they
would know right and and telllike, did that?
Did anybody ever try to?

Natalie Parker (18:11):
tell her the quiet part out loud, but she
would always get defensive andalso she would also play the
card that her husband was black.
So it always was kind of like,well, I can't do't do that, my
husband, like we were like, oh,okay, okay, that's your card to
use in this conversation.
But we were just like it looks,because you have, you know, the

(18:35):
black teachers who are, whichwe didn't have a lot of lead
teachers that were black, theywere all TAs, like we were in
charge of, like classroommanagement, making sure we, like
you know, kids went to lunchand recess.
So we had this hugerelationship with the kids that
wasn't just in the classroom, itwas outside of the classroom,
it was getting them off the bus,putting them on the bus
interacting with parents.

(18:55):
So anytime parents had like anissue or something positive,
they would always go to the TAsand then the TAs would always
have to relate it back to thelead teacher.
So it became a place where,like, parents were just
interacting with the TAs andeven though we had conversations
around that, it never got fixedor never wanted to have like a
larger conversation about whatthe appearance looked like to

(19:18):
the larger public of parents.

George Borum (19:20):
And as a teaching assistant, what was the
functional relationship betweenyou and the lead teachers?
Were they aware enough to likelet's, you know, let's bury this
because we don't have time forit.
Let's have a good relationship.
Or did it create like abureaucracy In some classrooms?

Natalie Parker (19:34):
if you had a good relationship with your
teacher, it did.
If you didn't, it was ahierarchy, because it became
almost if the TA wasn't there.
Some classrooms function in away that the students would only
listen to the TA and then theywould listen to the teacher only
if the TA was in the room.
But if the TA was out, wasabsent, wasn't there for a day

(19:55):
or two, and then, you know, inany business we play the game of
well, I'm just not going tocome to work today, we'll see
what the classroom looks like.
So no, we always play thosegames.
So in education that's a bigthing.
Like if you take a day, I'mgonna take a day, I'm taking my
day off.
So if you take Monday off, I'mtaking Tuesday off and we'll be
back on Wednesday.
So yeah, absolutely, peoplewould just you take Monday.

George Borum (20:15):
I'm going to take off.
You're going to be by yourselfthe next day.
So don't do it.
All right, you, you survive.
So you, you guys, tried toconfront it's unsuccessful, you
survive.
That you know.
I think that what strikes meabout that situation was is the

(20:41):
the potential lack of discretionthat the leader had?
Or or maybe it was intentional?
There's a ton of research onhow fear in the workplace is
extremely toxic for productivity.
So I can't imagine the level ofanxiety that that would create
for the organization and theloss of productivity, because

(21:01):
even if the person, theinterviewee, was walked or the
candidate was walked through onehallway people will spend time
saying like hey, did you seewhat happened?

Natalie Parker (21:10):
like, and so it just yeah, interesting snowball
effect of like what's going onyou know, we weren't like naive
to it, like we picked it up,like adults are smart.
Sometimes when you become aleader, you feel like like
you're the smartest person inthe room.
In reality, you're not Likeyour staff culture is huge,
especially in education.
It's massive because we talkabout like two different kinds

(21:30):
of culture.
We talk about school culture,then we talk about staff culture
, and we generally talk aboutschool culture more than
anything else because you wantto have a safe nurturing
environment for all students andstaff.
But that staff culture is justas important for all students
and staff.
But that staff culture is justas important.
And if it's not and people cantell the difference between you

(21:50):
finally coming out of youroffice and the only reason why
you're doing that is for a newhire, then that's going to lead
to problems in our school, whichit did because people picked up
on that and then didn't want tostay or wanted to leave.

George Borum (22:02):
So what I hear you saying is that staff culture
and school culture is notmutually exclusive.
They're interdependent.
And in what ways?
In your career, over the arc ofyour career, seen them work
well together.

Natalie Parker (22:18):
I've had the fortune and pleasure of being in
really good staff culture andone of the things that was the
most dominating force is that wesupported each other in ways
outside of work.
So we would go to each other'sfamily's gatherings and we would
be able to understand andsupport each other.
So when you came to work, youknew that person always had your

(22:38):
best interest.
So when they gave you feedbackmaybe that you didn't want to
hear, you knew it was a place oflike compassion, empathy, but
also love to get you better soyou can get better at your craft
.
Because if you want to stayhere like, we need you to get
better and this is how you canget better.
And I've learned over the years,like when you have a culture
like that, especially ineducation, because you spend so

(22:58):
much time in the classroom, youspend so much time with your
peers, that you have to havethis level of relationship.
That's why you see so manyteachers outside of work hang
out with each other and doactivities and stuff like that.
It's a very for so many wordslike clicks and stuff like that
when it comes to certain gradelevels or certain teachers.
Or this is the math team andthis is the ELA team and you

(23:19):
know this is the PE team.
It's like we do a lot of that.

George Borum (23:22):
So how much of that is coping versus
connectivity Like you know whatI mean, like cause sometimes,
when you're in trying situationslike I'm just going to be here
and commiserate and cope withyou, versus like we are
connected and we're living thisthing out together.

Natalie Parker (23:36):
I think that's part of it, because part of it
is just being able to say, likewe in this together, like if you
got to suffer, we all got tosuffer, so we got gotta suffer,
so we gotta suffer together.
Then we need to be able to cometogether to be able to
understand, like, what's for thegreater good.
And that's what we always usedto say, like, regardless of who
is sitting in that hierarchychair, as principal of our
building, we still got to do itfor the kids.

(23:57):
Because at the end of the day,like we have to perform for our
kids, especially working in acharter where you know you're
working, sometimes off of afive-year renewal, especially in
New York state.
Like, if you're a charter andyou don't get a five-year
renewal, you get closed, youknow, and you're an at-will
employee.
So after you don't have acontract that's two or three
years you have a 10-monthcontract.

(24:18):
So if you don't get renewed forthe next year, you don't have a
job.
So you constantly have to learnto get better at your craft.

George Borum (24:24):
So talk to me about charter schools.
When did you start your love ofcharter schools versus I don't
want to say versus publicschools, but opposed to public
schools, right, because you'vebeen in both spaces?

Natalie Parker (24:34):
Yes, I think my love for charters have always
come from a place of givingparents choice and options.
Like I grew up, my mother sentme and my brother both to
Catholic schools and then when Imoved to New Jersey, I went to
a public school Like that washer option.
She could have sent me to aCatholic school, but she chose
to send me to a public.
And that's the biggest thingwith charters.
I know there's this always thisanimosity between public and

(24:58):
charter and stealing funds andstealing kids, which I've never
understood.
How a charter can physicallysteal a child from a public
school.
We don't go in and physicallytake them and steal them from
their parents and make them comehere.
It's a choice that a parentwants and if we are offering a
parent something that they'reinterested in doing, like a
longer school day and a longerschool year and parents are

(25:20):
enjoying that, then they havethe option to be able to come to
a charter.
If they don't, then obviouslythey will stay at a public
school, which might be highperforming, or they just feel
more comfortable being at apublic school.

George Borum (25:36):
So I feel as though giving parents that
choice is the most importantthing.
Okay, so you move from thepublic school to the charter
school piece.
Tell me about the leadershipdifferences between public and
charter.

Natalie Parker (25:45):
I think the biggest thing in most charters
is we don't have a teacher'sunion behind us, so it's very
much an at will.
So we work in an environmentwhere, like I said before, we
have a 10-month contract or a12-month contract that we're
working for that school year andwe have to get renewed, and
also we're working under theumbrella of okay, we have this

(26:08):
five-year renewal.
So in three or four years theauthorizer is going to come in
and look at our scores, look atour enrollment, look at our
finances, look at our operationsand if we're not up to snuff,
we get closed.
And the difference betweenpublic is just like there aren't
many public schools beingclosed after like five years of
just opening.
So you really have to make surethat everything you're putting

(26:29):
in place is academically soundfor kids and also that you're
hiring the correct staff,because you have a very small
window and you can't afford tohave a teacher that is behind or
failing, that's there, forthree or four years.
You just can't, because youcan't move them to like another
building or to a higher gradelevel or anything else like that
.
You just don't have that option.

George Borum (26:50):
So in your tenure and I don't know if it was in
the charter schools or not, but,like at one point, you had 11
leaders 15 years.

Natalie Parker (27:00):
Yes, I have a record.
Yeah, I have a record.
Yes, all in charter.
So I've had 11 differentbuilding leaders, including
myself.
I was principal for three days.
I had the best three-yeartenure of any principal in the
history of our building.

George Borum (27:14):
The three days.
The three days Was it over theweekend.
George, it was over the weekendFriday, Saturday.

Natalie Parker (27:20):
No, I did a Monday, tuesday, wednesday.
I did a Monday, tuesday,wednesday.
I got.
I got interim principal onFriday and then I was off
interim by Wednesday.
And if you ask any of my oldstaff, they say I was the best
principal in three days.
Why?
Why, because our schedule saidthat we were going to end school
.
I had the ability because whenyou're in a charter and

(27:43):
transportation becomes an issue,so for some reason someone
didn't look at the calendarreally well.
So we were going to have to payfor busing for three extra days
and it was going to be like onehundred and eighty thousand
dollars.
And I was just like we don'thave that right now.
The director of finance told meI said OK, so what we're going

(28:03):
to do is we're just going totell parents on monday there's
no school on tuesday andwednesday.
So came up with this verycrafty conversation I had with
parents and let them know.
I said listen, we have threedays left.
Two of these are half a days.
We can't afford transportation,so today's going to be the last
day of school.
Kids were applauding me, I wasgetting high fives, and and then
, listen, on Tuesday we hadkindergarten graduation.
On Wednesday we had fourthgrade graduation.
It was beautiful and then I wasall done, so no one could

(28:26):
complain about my principalshipbecause I ended school early and
the kids loved me, the teachersloved me and that's two out of
the three stakeholders thatreally appreciated it.
So I'll take that 75%.
I was shooting 75%.
I'll take that 75%, I wasshooting 75%, I'll take it.

George Borum (28:43):
Listen, let's talk about the third stakeholder
Cause.
As a parent, I will tell youthere is nothing that gets me to
the highest levels ofirritating than seeing that my
child who goes to I thinkthey're like trimesters, right,
but it's like every other week.
She's off on a Friday, everyother.

Natalie Parker (29:00):
What did the?
Parents say to you they got towork, george.
Just one parent that got fuckedup.
I only had one, that's it.

George Borum (29:11):
No, no, no.
Let me help you out.
You had one parent that saidthey were mad.

Natalie Parker (29:15):
I had such a good relationship with parents
they would come up to me andthey would be like what you
doing?
I'd be like, listen, it costsabout $180,000.
And y'all know y'all not goingto bring your kids for a half a
day anyway, so why are youpretending?
And they were like yeah, yougot it.
You know they wasn't comingTuesday or Wednesday anyway,
because it was a half a day.
I said exactly so we ain't gotto do all this.
You know what.
We'll see you next year.

(29:36):
Have a great summer.
You know, let us know if youneed anything.
You know we'll see you inseptember.
And they'd be like you got it.
I was like, okay enough.
Said only one parent called andgot upset.
I explained it.
He was still upset.
But I was like one parent outof 375 was like and I'm two to
three of the stakeholdersthought it was the best decision
the kids and the teachersshooting 75.

(29:56):
I'll take that any day so, solet's talk about these.
I would I'd have been hot.

George Borum (30:00):
I don't mean that she's calling you like, look man
, you you can close the school,but you got to take her.
So talk to me about thestakeholders, because one of the
things that I'm finding is that, you know, unlike a person that
works in like a corporatesituation or even a small
business right, we try in mostcases to have one boss right,

(30:23):
the person that gives youdirection, whatever in education
, it's just an interestingdynamic of having both the, the
administration, the students,the parents, the federal
requirement, like it's a lot ofthings pulling at you.
How do you, how do you managethat in a way that doesn't suck?

Natalie Parker (30:43):
I think having those conversations with all of
your stakeholders and being ableto be up front with them.
I think when you end up likeclouding it in jargon where no
one understands, that's when youget like people you get lost.
Like, if you just tell parentsand tell teachers and even tell
students, like this is what wegot, like this is what we need
to be at, I think we'recompletely honest with people.

(31:04):
When we start getting into likethis heavy jargon of things
that no one really understands,that's when you start losing
them.
Like, just tell parents, likecompletely upfront, this is
where we are at a school, thisis where we need to be at.
This is the support that weneed to have from you.
School this is where we need tobe at.
This is the support that weneed to have from you.
I think they're more willing tolisten to you if you tell them
what you need from them, asopposed to just giving them
constant information.

(31:24):
Just what do you need from meas a parent?
Do you need me to make surethat my kid reads 20 minutes at
a time?
Do you need me to be able tomake sure that their homework is
done?
Those sorts of things areextremely helpful.

George Borum (31:33):
So let's talk about parent partnership and it
comes to your experience.
Tell me about some of thestraining parental relationships
you've had like again asstakeholders, like what are some
of the challenges you had andwhat would you want to see from
parents?

Natalie Parker (31:48):
as an educator.
I have this theory, likebecause when I first started I'm
gonna age myself.
Back in 2008 I realized a lotof my parents were older parents
.
When they saw me they were likeyou're my child, they don't.
I'm just saying.
I'm just saying when I wasolder parents.

George Borum (32:09):
you look like my son's age Older parents I had a
lot of you got a kindergartenwith a 60-year-old parent.
You got to follow up Somegrandmas and stuff like that.

Natalie Parker (32:19):
They'll be like you, my son's age what are you
talking to me about?
My child?
So they were so involved, likethey were actively involved in
day-to-day.
They were, by most standards,helicopter parents, if you want
to be able to call them.
I think, as we progressivelyhave gotten like towards now,
obviously parents are likeobviously younger and we're
seeing like a huge differentdynamic on like their

(32:42):
interactions with teachers andwith the schools, because I
think their experience inschools may not have been as
great and as may have not beenas warm.
So they're willing to like pushback and challenge.
That's why you see a lot oflike challenges with parents,
like pushing back on schools,and it doesn't always end up in

(33:02):
like spoken in the right way.
But I think, like generation, ageneration before me had maybe
a more positive experienceinteraction with schools and
with teachers than thisgeneration of parents who did
with schools, because, because,like, look at all the things we
just pushed into schools forparents.

George Borum (33:23):
I think that's part of the problem so for the,
for the young, oh, yes, yes, I'm40, so I think a lot of what we
did with kids especiallyparents that are anywhere
between their 20s and like early30s is they went to school.

Natalie Parker (33:41):
Especially if you went to charters like we did
, like this sort of no excusemodel charters where we wanted
to just harp on very smallthings making sure your shirt
was tucked in, make sure you hada belt, and we would send kids
home if we didn't like, we wouldsuspend kids, like we had.
We wanted to instill theseexpectations for kids very much

(34:02):
in the classroom and by doingthose things I think they had a
negative experience.
So anytime anything resembledthat, they come very hard at
schools and stuff like thatrightfully so, because they have
their own trauma from thatexperience and that's something
that we have to kind of have aconversation about with parents
about what was their experiencein schools and how can we
address those and make sure thatit doesn't look like the same

(34:24):
thing for their kids.

George Borum (34:26):
So it's interesting because I was
talking to someone else who saidpart of their challenge is that
the parents don't know thatthey should be helping.

Natalie Parker (34:34):
That's true, too , parents, because we haven't
explained to parents what wewant them to do.
We tell parents to be with yourkids 20 minutes a day.
Make sure you check theirhomework and make sure you get
them to school on time.
Like OK, like there's so muchthat goes into K-12 experiences.
That's more than just that.
Like you have to, realistically, at the dinner table, what's
your favorite subject?

(34:54):
What did you guys do?
Asking open-ended questions,like those sorts of things.
But how many parents areprepped with that?
How many parents hadconversations with their kids
that looked like that?
So if you're not trained as aparent, that your parent did
that, what's the things we needyou to be able to work with with

(35:16):
your kids at home?
So, when they are doing areading comprehension lesson,
because you had a longconversation with them, this
question that they about toanswer, they already have,
they're already familiar with.
Like those are the sorts ofthings that we need to do.
Yeah, I agree, I will tell you Itreat both of my children's
education like a performancemanagement plan where I'm like
OK, now what is going?

George Borum (35:35):
for this year.
Where are they along the lineof continuum?
What do we need to work on?
Tell me what they're doing well.

Natalie Parker (35:42):
Because at the end of the day.

George Borum (35:43):
I'm trying to make them fully functional adults,
and so I won't be like BillCosby, where he couldn't get all
the people at his house Like Ineed them out of my house,
george, so we need to make surethat they can do all those
things Like raised.
Are we on schedule?
And if we're not, I can acceptnot being on schedule,
especially with a kid who has aneurodiverse need.

(36:05):
Cool with that, I just need to-.

Natalie Parker (36:07):
And are you asking the teachers?

George Borum (36:08):
Always making some kind of progress, even if the
progress is failure in learning.

Natalie Parker (36:12):
But what are we like?
And those are the conversationsthat we need to be able to have
with parents.
And I always tell parents allthe time, like a lot of the
experiences maybe you had, likedid your parents talk to you
about school and some of themyou know, a lot of times I would
ask them we would do new parentorientation and I would talk
about all the things that we dohere at school and I would say,

(36:34):
like raise your hand if yourparents spoke to you when you
came home every single day for15, 20 minutes and a lot of the
hands at the beginning of mycareer were up as my career went
later on, later on the handswere down and that wasn't a case
.
And I implore parents, likehave a conversation with the kid
, ask them how their day was,what did they learn?
Like, why was that important?
Like those sorts of things thatwe need to be able to do.

(36:56):
But we also have to trainparents to be able to be a
community school where we areteaching our parents what we
want them to be able to do.
So, like a lot of parents hadreally tough experience, like
they had schools that thoughtlike let's do the broken window
theory of teaching students inschools schools what's that?

(37:22):
Tell people what that is.
So broken window theory was anapproach of like a criminologist
back in the seventies.
So coming out of the sixtiesand you know civil rights and
we've seen riots in Detroit andNewark and New York and all
places.
So this criminologist comes upwith this idea that if you have
a car that has been busted outof the windows and the hubcaps
off and the tires are there,you're going to start getting a

(37:43):
little bit of crime.
Then you have graffiti on thebuilding, then you're going to
have more crime.
So the plight is the idea that,like, if you have a broken
window, it's just going to leadto more and more crime.
So what schools did coming outof like late 90s, going into the
2000s, was we starteddeveloping schools around this
idea If kids shirts are nottucked in, then it's going to

(38:03):
lead to more suspension.
So if you don't have your shirttucked in, you don't have a
belt on, you're not doing yourhomework, you got to leave
school.
So that's what we did.
So a lot of kids who now areparents are like I don't want
that experience for my son ordaughter.
So the minute they get anyresemblance of that, because we

(38:25):
never explained to parents whywe were doing it that way.
So nowadays we have to be ableto explain to parents more and
more about our approaches, notfrom an academic standpoint, but
just from an overall standpoint.

George Borum (38:33):
And I think, as a stakeholder, you owe it to them.
Like here's what, here's thecontract we're trying to go for,
right?
Yeah, otherwise, what are we?

Natalie Parker (38:40):
doing yes.

George Borum (38:42):
So let's talk about this 11 leaders in 15
years.
So you have your three-dayprincipalship, and then what
happens?
You know you say the best.
I will not forget it.
So tell me about some of theseother 11 rotating leaders.
Like what was going on?
Were they not hiring well, Werethey?
They weren't built for it.

(39:03):
Did they in over their head?
Like what was going on and howdid it affect you?

Natalie Parker (39:08):
So my first four years I had one building leader
and then after that we startedgetting a new building leader
and our first building leaderwas from out of state, came from
Michigan.
He ended up staying half theschool year because just didn't
work out.
But as a staff we knew we hadto come together and work

(39:30):
together.
We would always say, like he'sout making an album, so like we
would come up with random thingslike and then we got another
building leader who was from NewYork State.
But we were in urban school andour board decided to hire
somebody from a rural community45 minutes away from an urban
area and it wasn't new to her,she had no idea what she was
doing.

(39:51):
So we would always want to dothis splashy hire.
We're going to do a nationwidesearch.
We had a principal from Detroit, we had a principal from Vegas,
we had a principal fromTennessee and we just kept
bringing in all these names fromour state and it just never
worked out because they weren'tfamiliar with the community,
they didn't get comfortable withour students, they didn't get

(40:12):
comfortable with our familiesand it was about making a
splashy hire.
It's about being able to say wegot a principal from Vegas, we
got a principal from Michigan,as opposed to just being like,
ok, we're hiring the bestcandidate locally because we
want to be able to support whatparents want and people who know
Albany or know the area thatyou're around, but how does that
affect you as a teacher?

George Borum (40:31):
You know we've decided that you're good second
chair You're.
You're still in this in theclassroom, like, like.
How did that suck for you.

Natalie Parker (40:44):
So literally my first year, my first four years,
I had one principal, and thenthe next year, my last year, in
the classroom I had my secondprincipal and when he left we
just kept chugging along andfinished out the year and then,
literally that next year Ibecame an administrator.
So then I went through this spanof just having all of these

(41:05):
second these, all thesedifferent administrators, coming
with these ideas of what themission and vision was even
though we knew what it wasbecause it was right there on
the wall but their vision of howdo we get to that excellence in
playing second chair, of how dowe get to that excellence In
playing second chair?
I was able to use all thoseskills that I used back when I
was an assistant coach to helpme be able to filter in this new

(41:26):
person with a new personality,from a different geographical
background, to be able to helpsupport them without them
thinking, oh, you just want myjob or why didn't they just give
it to you?
Because everyone came in andliterally asked me that why
aren't you principal?
That's what they would all sayto start off the conversation.
How did you reconcile that in?

George Borum (41:44):
your mind, though, Knowing that at least you had
the respect of your peers rightand you have the respect of the
stakeholders?
Did you ever ask I don't know,the chair of the board or
anybody like, look, OK, tell mewhat I'm not doing?

Natalie Parker (41:59):
So I probably and I'll be honest, I
self-sabotage myself.
So I said one of two things Isaid the one time we were in a
transition.
Our board chair came to ourbuilding and spoke to me and
said like your principal leftwithout you guys knowing he's no

(42:20):
longer here.
And this is when my three-dayinterim and they asked I said,
how would you feel about being aprincipal?
And I told them I said I can'tbe principal here because I know
the staff too well and it wouldbe hard for me to let somebody
go when I've gone to a barbecueat their house.
I'm too connected to thebuilding to be able to run the

(42:43):
building effectively.
You have to bring somebody fromthe outside.
I can help and support them,but I can't run this building
because I will have to makedecisions for staff that I've
grown too close to because we'vehad so many different building
leaders, and for me to have keptthem here.
They knew that I've grown tooclose to because we've had so
many different building leaders,and for me to have kept them
here.
They knew that I could alwaysbe that support that they could

(43:04):
lean on during a difficult time,even though we did have
different building leaders orthey didn't like a different
teacher.
They could always come to mefor that level of support when I
had to step into that role.
I was going to lose that and Ididn't want to.

George Borum (43:17):
I don't know that.
That sounds like self-sabotage,as in as much as a deliberate
choice.

Natalie Parker (43:24):
Or maybe a career suicide.
Maybe I chose to do that asopposed to taking on.

George Borum (43:28):
So so, looking, looking back, though, would you,
would you have done itdifferent?

Natalie Parker (43:34):
No, absolutely not Everyone asks me like like
now that you are like I'm nolonger working there, I've
worked there.
I worked there for 15 years.
No, because I always, like, atthe end of the day, I think back
on my 15 years there and,having all the them who have
left to go teach at a publicschool, I've had superintendents

(44:01):
contact me and say, whateveryou guys did there, this teacher
is fantastic and wonderful.
So whatever you guys did therewas great, thank you for that.
Like you really get asuperintendent from a public
school to call a charter or anyany in general, just to say like
thank you for that.
Or a principal would call andreach out, or just to be able to

(44:23):
say say like, whatever you guysdid at that particular time to
get this teacher where they areat, like they're a joy and a
pleasure to be able to have here.
So I think back on, like we didsuch a good work.
We were independent charter, wewere mom and pop, we stayed
open, for they're still open now.
And I think that's morerewarding because you know
schools, especially charters,can become like Pepsi and Coke,
like a conglomerate.
You can have all these schoolswith all the same name.
But we were independent, wewere mom and pop.

George Borum (44:45):
We worked off of that we loved that Explain the
conglomerate of charter schools.

Natalie Parker (44:51):
So, you have different charter schools that,
yeah, almost franchise, I wouldsay.
Like there are like likefranchising of charter schools
that you hear the name just like, oh okay, they have schools in
new york, they have schools inflorida, they have schools in
texas.
They could be high performingschools, but they're also a
level of like any kind ofgrocery store that you see

(45:12):
around in your area there's alot of them.
So they all have the samemission or the same vision.
Now you can bring that businessto that particular area, but
does it hold any value?
Because it's not like homegrown,like being an independent
charter.
We were independent.
We worked off of word of mouth.
We had second, third generationkids that were in our building

(45:35):
because their older brother wentthere and then they had kids
and then they brought a cousinand a nephew and you know,
great-grandmother kids went hereand they liked this teacher in
second grade so they signed themup for kindergarten to make
sure that they got that secondgrade teacher.
Like we worked off of thosesorts of things and sometimes
when you become like a largerconglomerate of things, you kind
of lose that homegrown piece toit.

George Borum (45:59):
So you leave the classroom, go into
administration.
Then you become buildingmanager.

Natalie Parker (46:10):
Yeah, so I become.
I go through three differentroles, name titles, but they're
all the same thing.
I went from being a dean toassistant principal, then to
principal for behavior andculture.
So I did all the day to daysort of stuff open the building,
close the building, read tokids when they come off, did the
level of like when teacherswere out planning that pieces of

(46:31):
things, so like if you neededsomething fixed or done or knew
where, I knew where everythingwas.
So I managed the building dayto day.
So it made life easier for ourprincipal for academics.
It made life easier for ourhead of school at that time to
be able to work on like biggerpicture things where I dealt
with like the day to day sort ofthings of a parent complaint or

(46:54):
you know, something was brokeor the AC wasn't working.
Who do I need to call just tobe able to get somebody here?

George Borum (47:00):
So like an operational triage kind of thing
.

Natalie Parker (47:03):
Yeah, it was every day, because somebody
would always call out.
You know somebody, some kidwould throw up in the middle of
the hallway and can't find ajanitor.
So you got to get the gloves on, you got to get the mop out,
you got to get it off the floor.
Before we transition, likethose sorts of things that keep
a building moving, you need toalways have a second person
who's ready to be able to workand be able to get those things

(47:26):
done.

George Borum (47:26):
So I mean, what I love about your path is that
you've you've gone up throughthe ranks and now let's talk
about where you are now.
Like what's what's differentfor you?
What have you learned,especially from some of the bad
leaders, like I'm never doingthat what they did.
Like I'm never doing thosethree things.
Like give me some of that, talkto me about that.

Natalie Parker (47:48):
I think having soft skills, especially with
newer teachers that you'recoming in I think when I was
coming in it didn't like matterif the leader liked you or not.
Like you just work, just towork.
I feel like now you have towork for somebody you like who
generally cares about yourwellbeing and making sure that
like it's not just about what'sin the classroom, about worried

(48:10):
about you as an individual.
So my biggest thing in learning, one of the things I've learned
, is, like it's simple, thingslike how was your weekend, was
your weekend remembering youknow your staff's kids names and
if they play soccer, like oh,how was that soccer game
yesterday?
Like doing those sorts ofthings it affirms that you like
understand.
One of the things that I didbefore I left it henry johnson

(48:30):
last summer was I we had like 40or 50 staff like I hand wrote a
note to every single staffmember before I left because I
thought it was important forthem to be able to just
understand.
Like even though this mighthave been your first year or
this is your 15th year with me,like I appreciate the time that
you put in in being here.
So I think on my journey rightnow trying to open up a charter
school.
I think using those skills whenit comes to leadership, but

(48:53):
also getting people tounderstand like what my mission
and vision of the school thathasn't even been built yet is
the biggest takeaway from that.

George Borum (49:02):
It's a personal peeve, but I don't like the term
soft skills and it's just it's.
For me it's.
They are life skills, like ifyou never learned how to do
calculus.
It is far more important foryou to learn how to talk to
people do calculus.
It is far more important foryou to learn how to talk to
people.

(49:24):
It's far more important for youto learn how to resolve conflict
yes we all need technicalskills, but then the receiving
end of the educator space.
So we receive all the peoplethat you guys educate and then
we get them in the workforce andthey don't know how to talk to
people, they don't know how tohave conflicts, they don't know
how to debate, they don't knowhow to negotiate.

Natalie Parker (49:40):
It's funny, I was talking to someone.

George Borum (49:41):
I was coaching somebody the other day and they
were like well, I don't likethis and I don't like that, and
I don't like that.
And I'm like well, it soundslike you don't prefer a lot of
things, and that's fine.
You can have preferences, butyour inability to pinpoint.
So how do you negotiate so youcan get further, rather than
just being mad at the thingsthat aren't like the way you

(50:03):
want them to be?
And for me, I feel like a bigmiss in education is really
honing in on just thesefundamental people skills like
to be able to connect andoperate, Because even if you are
a coder in the back Westernwing of some big conglomerate,
you still got to know how totalk to people.
And so for me it's alwaysinteresting, and I think in the

(50:28):
age of digital and all things,AI, we don't know what's real
Authenticity and being able tomanage relationships is going to
be the chief thing that makespeople successful in this day
and age.

Natalie Parker (50:42):
I completely agree with that.
I think when I was coming up,even just growing up like, just
like that level of like we'rejust going to grind, we're just
going to like you're coming towork, to work, it doesn't matter
if you like your boss, itdoesn't mean anything, you need
to come to work.
And that was like the approachthat I had for my first, like

(51:05):
several years like, especiallywhen I first became a dean.
Very like, late in my 20s, myfifth year in education, I was
like I don't care what theteachers like who cares?
Like you're going to do yourjob because I'm the boss and I'm
telling you what to do and Ihad to learn that skill.
Like oh, people don't like that.
Like okay, like I have adifferent approach.
Like they don't like that toomuch.

(51:26):
Like okay, like, and thatwasn't, that's not even my
personality.
But I figured like that's how Isee bosses were on tv and that's
what I've read in books.
And like that's the mindset youhad to have.
And I didn't know you couldshift the mindset because every
boss that I've ever had, evenwhen I was working at a movie
theater when I was in highschool, did the exact same thing

(51:48):
.
So my high school basketballcoach was the exact same way.
Everything was very stern andvery to the point when giving
feedback, like you're going todo this, because I told you to
command and control.
Exactly so when I got to becomea leader, I didn't know that
you could deviate and besomething unique or innovative
in your building.

George Borum (52:08):
But as I've gotten older and I've become more red.
I understand.
Has anybody ever given you,like you call anybody giving you
that feedback, like, look, boss, I'll work that way, like when
you now, ok, now, like now Ifeel more comfortable with
myself being able to access.

Natalie Parker (52:23):
I think early on I did not feel super
comfortable, but what ended uphappening was those who, when I
became a leader, those who weremy friends as teachers were just
like that's not you.
Why are you acting like?
Like that?
That's not you.
That's never been you.
So why are you pretending to bethis human that we've never

(52:43):
interacted with?
Like you can be the leader ofthe building.
We respect you, but you don'tneed to act like that or treat
people like that.
You've never done that beforeand I had to take that and sit
with it.

George Borum (52:53):
I appreciate having people in your life who
know you well enough to give youthe mirror and be like let's
look at this and see if this isyou people in your life who know
you well enough to give you themirror and be like let's look
at this and see if this is youand I also.
It lends itself to reallyhaving people you know, whether
you're listening or watching orwhatever.
Just think about the kind ofleader you would want to be,
whatever the situation is, andbe intentional about it.

(53:15):
I do think there are certain.
We talk about this sometimeswhen we're facilitating and
training.
There are some times wherecommand and control is important
when the building is on fireI'll have time for you to, like
me, get out the building rightand then there are times where
we need to work together andnegotiate.
I think there's space for eachstyle, but any style overused is

(53:36):
dangerous.
Is that what I'm going topreach?

Natalie Parker (53:40):
No, and I think that that's the case sometimes,
that we have to just figure outall those pieces, and I think
it's it's been hard for me and Ithink, but over time you grow
and you just become like, youimprove and you get better, and
I think that's the biggest thingthat I've tried to gain is just
how do you get better each andevery day?
And that's how I kind of takethe approach to doing things.

George Borum (54:03):
So you are now in a different seat altogether,
right?
So you?
Your love for charter schoolhas spawned something new in
your life.
Tell us about what?
All of the surviving, the 11bosses and 15 years and learning
your own leadership style.
Where are you now in this space?

Natalie Parker (54:22):
Oh, I'm in the space of trying to open up my
own charter school, SchenectadyScholar Charter School.

George Borum (54:35):
It would be the first Montessori charter school
in central New York Free tuitionyou got first of all you got to
define because there's a lot offor those who are not in
education.

Natalie Parker (54:41):
There's a lot of the first Montessori.

George Borum (54:46):
So let's talk about the recipe, the gumbo of
things going on in that title.

Natalie Parker (54:51):
So most people when they hear Montessori,
especially in or around thisarea where I live at, it's
usually affluent, white,typically very expensive school
to be able to get into.
And Montessori is an approachwhere you know, freedom with
limits and it's very muchstudents mixed age classrooms.
So it's a very unique learningstyle and learning approach to

(55:14):
having schools.
It was something that wasadopted many, many years ago,
which has been co-opted,typically in more affluent areas
, and what I wanted to do,especially after COVID, was,
over the years, charters havebeen very structured, Some
people would say even like it'svery rigorous, but it doesn't
allow itself to be able to beflexible, and what I wanted to

(55:36):
do was to have a charter schoolthat was very flexible.
So, thinking about this approach, it was just like let's put
these two ideas together,Because 10 or 15 years ago I
could never see how these twoopposite ends of the spectrums
could come together.
I said if we blend these twomodels together and take the
pieces that we enjoy, we canstill have a longer school day,
a longer school year, but nothave this high level of

(55:56):
compliance in the building wherewe're drawing lines in the
hallway making kids walk on it.
We can have freedom with limits.
We can teach the kids what wewant them to be able to do.
We can use hands-on materials,like they use in Montessori, but
we can also prepare kids to beable to be doctors and lawyers
by using both of theseapproaches.
So I was like we can still dothis.
It's just going to lookdifferent, it's going to sound

(56:17):
different, but it can beinnovative for especially black
and brown families, who need adifferent approach, who just
need a different option.
And that's what we want tooffer.
It's just a different optionfor families.

George Borum (56:27):
What?
What makes that option so muchmore important, at least now, in
this day and age?

Natalie Parker (56:37):
Oh, great question.
I think we have been stagnanton like, what our approach is.
So like, okay, if we go topublic school, public schools
look like this.
We go to charters, they looklike this.

George Borum (56:49):
Okay.

Natalie Parker (56:50):
And then that's it in school, or you have money
to be able to send your kid to aMontessori school.
It affords you theseopportunities the more money and
resources they have, or justgeographically where you live at
.
What I want to be able to do isblend these two ideas together
and be able to make it work forfamilies who typically wouldn't

(57:11):
have the opportunity to be ableto go to one of the other
options.

George Borum (57:17):
Listen, man, I'm excited.
So where are you on thisjourney and how can folks
support you?

Natalie Parker (57:24):
So we so our application was due April 8th.
We were able to get ourapplication in because it is an
extremely heavy lift.
I wrote together a 567 pagedocument because you have to put
all these things together.
So if you think of a school andall the documents that go into
it, because you have to put allthese things together, so if you
think of a school and all thedocuments that go into it.

(57:44):
And one of the big things was, Icalled in every single favor
I've ever had in education in myentire life.
I called every favor, anythingtime I did.
And if I lifted a box for you,I called in and asked can you
look at this document for mereal quick?
I literally did.
I called it.
I don't probably have anyfavors left in education.

(58:04):
I have to build my equity backup again but I was able to get
the application in with afantastic and wonderful board.
I have 14 board members, whichis extremely high for education,
and what's special about ourboard is that it's mutually
exclusive of black and brownwomen.
I think that's extremely,extremely important for myself
when I was putting this boardtogether.
70% of the teaching force inthis country is women, most

(58:26):
households.
Research says that educationand health decisions are made by
moms, aunties, grandmas.
So I wanted a board that kindof looked like that and they all
come from finance education.
One's a professor, one's stillin college, one's a teacher,
they still in college, one's ateacher.
They are just like a wealth offantastic and wonderful human
beings that are helping me putthis vision out there, and a

(58:50):
couple weeks ago we had publiccomment where the community was
able to come out and say if theywere pro or against us, and
they were able to come out andshow their support for our
school.
So right now we are just kindof waiting out the process for
the next step in the process,and right now we're just, you
know, enjoying the summer andgetting the word out to parents
about what we can offer and, youknow, just trying to give them

(59:10):
another option.
That's the biggest thing.
It's not to embarrass theschool district or make them
look bad or say that theirteachers are not good.
It's just to afford parentsanother option.

George Borum (59:25):
That's all.
We just want to give peopleanother option.
George, I'm really excited foryou because I think that what
you're doing is lendinginnovation in a space that
hasn't had a lot of innovationat least real innovation.
I think we've kind of movedaround the deck chairs on the
Titanic a bit right.
Yes, absolutely Really excitedfor the work you're doing.
I want to hear about how youbalance family as an educator
and the leadership lessonsyou've learned again kind of,

(59:46):
from bad bosses and what you'vetaken for your family and things
that you will or will not do.

Natalie Parker (59:52):
I think what I've learned is when I became a
parent.
I became a parent later on inmy career Are you one of those
old parents.
I am one of those old parents Iam.
I have an eight-year-old and 40years old.
So when I say that to people,they're like, oh, you're old,
your kid is going to be you know, you're going to be almost 50

(01:00:12):
when your kid goes to college.
I'm like, okay, I'm notrealizing.
Like, okay, I'm an older parent, sure.
Like, oh, okay, I'm an olderparent, sure, so I'm an older
parent.
So I think I was able to learna lot, especially by being an
educator.
When you're in the classroom yousee so many kids and I think
what I, early on, I did in theclassroom, which wasn't the
right thing to think and havethe mindset I used to say, well,

(01:00:35):
I'm not going to do that as aparent, but not understanding,
like every parent, situation isslightly a bit different and I
think what made me realize as aneducator, after being like a
dad, is just understanding that,like, every decision you make,
you're trying to make it in thebest interest of your child and
sometimes it doesn't come offthat way.
So you know, I would often likeI realize now having a daughter

(01:00:57):
that you know, when I was inthe classroom as a teacher, I
used to say, like girls werebossy.
But I would never say boys werebossy, never say that.
But as I got older in my careerand was able to do a lot of
reading and research andunderstand that like it's like
oh, that's my own bias.
So I stopped saying I used tosay like no, she just has a

(01:01:18):
really good leadership skills,that's all.
We just got to find a betterway to hone us those.
So she's not bossy, she justhas really good leadership
skills.
We just have to hone us thosebetter.
So like those sorts of things Ithink really has helped me as
like a parent and an educator, Ithink for my leadership style.
I think the biggest thing I wasable to take away from all the
1,500s of building leaders thatI've ever had in my entire

(01:01:41):
career is that I think beingable to understand your staff is
the most important thing.
Just being humble and I neverwant to ask a staff member to do
something I wouldn't do myself.
So that means helping to servelunch, covering a class teaching
third grade for a day becausethe teacher is out, like those
sorts of things go a long waywith your staff to be able to

(01:02:02):
understand, like he's in thefight with us every single day
Like he understands.
He has a lot of things on hisplate that's different than mine
, but he's willing to come intoour classroom and teach for
three and a half hours, likethat's going to go a long way
with the teacher than anythingelse I can do.

George Borum (01:02:19):
I think those are wonderful lessons.
I want to ask you one lastquestion to wrap our
conversation.
What would you say to the earlyin career teacher, or even the
medical career teacher who'sdealing with a bad leadership
situation in their workenvironment?
What's one survival skill youtry to give them?

Natalie Parker (01:02:41):
Find your group of people that make you want to
be able to come to work everyday.
But, most importantly, make surethat those 25, 30 faces looking
back at you know that you'rethere for them, making sure that
you're still empathetic and allthat frustration that you might
have towards that leader orprincipal that's in your
building, or instructional coachwhoever is giving you that high

(01:03:02):
level of frustration thatyou're putting all of that
emphasis into your classroom andthen in your spare time, try to
make sure that you are thinkingof other innovative ideas.
So find those two or threepeople that have that same level
of frustration and work on aseparate plan, maybe opening up
a school or developing afellowship that you can maybe go
to the superintendent aboutthat you want to be able to work

(01:03:23):
on some level of leadership andthen being able to see how can
you leverage yourself to be ableto say, moving forward, like,
ok, I see all the things thatthey're doing wrong.
So when I become a leader, I'mnot going to do that, because
everything is a teachable moment.
So you can learn from a badboss, you can learn from a good
boss, you can take skills fromboth and be able to say I want
to be like that when I become aleader, or I don't want to be

(01:03:44):
like that.
So I think that's the biggestthing.

George Borum (01:03:47):
George, it has been awesome to have you on so
it's been my pleasure as well.
Thank you so much for beinghere.

Natalie Parker (01:03:52):
Thank you so much.

George Borum (01:04:07):
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