August 20, 2024 • 39 mins
Can love survive the storm of addiction?
Join us as we uncover the powerful story of Anna Kingsley, a psychotherapist from London, who opens up about the ups and downs of being married to an active alcoholic who turned 20 months alcohol-free. Discover how the COVID-19 lockdown intensified her husband's alcohol dependence and strained their marriage, and how Anna's expertise in addiction therapy guided her through this challenging time. Anna shares the emotional rollercoaster of constant vigilance over a loved one's behavior and the liberating peace in letting go of control.
We explore the importance of staying connected, featuring Anna's supportive community, Anna's Recovery Village at https://annakingsley.substack.com/ on Substack. Her Recovery Village is packed with helpful resources and connections. If you need support, you must check this out!
This episode is a heartfelt testament to the enduring strength of community support and the compassionate journey of family recovery. Tune in for an insightful conversation filled with personal anecdotes, professional wisdom, and a message of hope for all those affected by addiction.
Couples in Recovery Course 50% OFF by clicking here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WSUE9OgJIUlWijCHmr9dZ__IWGVlTyUcKw9tRneXtxQ/edit#heading=h.rrrb3wp9sive
Connect with Anna here:
Substack: Anna's recovery village | Anna Kingsley | Substack
LinkedIn: (28) Anna Kingsley | LinkedIn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you or someone you know is married to an active
alcoholic, perhaps you're inrecovery yourself and partnered
with someone who's in recoveryand your relationships are
struggling and you want toreconnect in different ways,
then my next episode is for you.
Her name is Anna.
She's coming from London.
She's a psychotherapist.
She's also the wife of anactive alcoholic who now has two
(00:21):
years sober.
She takes us inside her houseduring the pandemic, kind of
shows us what that look and looklike and felt like to be
sitting next to someone who wasstruggling and didn't know how
to get well until he did.
She has a growing community ofthose affected by addiction
called Anna's Recovery Villagein Substack, which is loaded
(00:43):
with articles and resources,along with her website.
She herself is an addictiontherapist.
She's also helping couples findways to stay connected in
recovery.
So tune in.
Welcome to the Sober LivingStories podcast.
(01:03):
This podcast is dedicated tosharing stories of sobriety.
We shine a spotlight onindividuals who have faced the
challenges of alcoholism andaddiction and are today living
out their best lives sober.
Each guest has experiencedincredible transformation and
are here to share their storywith you.
I'm Jessica Stepanovic, yourhost.
(01:24):
Join me each week as guestsfrom all walks of life share
their story with you.
I'm Jessica Stepanovic, yourhost.
Join me each week as guestsfrom all walks of life share
their stories to inspire andprovide hope to those who need
it most.
(01:54):
Hi and welcome to anotherepisode of the Sober Living
Stories podcast.
Meet Anna Kingsley as sheshares her personal story as the
wife of an alcoholic who is,after quite a few relapses, 20
months sober.
Today, she's going to share herpersonal and professional
experience and she's going totalk about how couples can find
ways to stay connected inrecovery.
She has a growing community forthose affected by addiction
(02:17):
called Anna's Recovery Village,which you can find on Substack
and a website packed withresources.
Welcome to the show, anna.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Thank you so much.
I'm really glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
You're coming here from London and it's so good to
have you.
So, yeah, please share as farback on your personal story and
your personal experience beingable to give listeners the
perspective of being in relationwith someone who is an active
alcoholism or addiction and thenfollowing them through into
recovery, Because we do havesome listeners who are also
partnered and they're both inrecovery.
So I know that you are atherapist who has experience in
(02:58):
all of these areas, so we'reexcited to hear you today.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oh, thank you.
So let me think where I need tostart, probably actually before
I met my husband.
So the relationship I was in inmy 20s was with a very
charismatic man, very, quiteseductive, very friendly, very
outgoing, very dynamic.
And it wasn't until the veryend of our relationship, where
(03:25):
everything rather imploded, thatI found out that he actually
had a gambling addiction and ithad become so much he couldn't
deal with it and therelationship ended.
There was some money that wentmissing.
It was very, very destructiveat the end and clearly there was
(03:47):
a lot of shame around hisdifficulties.
He hid it from everybody.
So that relationship ended verymessily and he struggled to
find a way to deal with hisaddiction, and it carried on.
Find a way to deal with hisaddiction, and it carried on.
And so when I met my husband Ithought this guy's fantastic,
(04:08):
he's solid, he's secure, he'sgot great stable family, he can
write in full sentences, he'sgot a secure job, his sister
loves him, everything's going tobe great and everything was
great.
We got together, we had a lotof fun, we went traveling, we
settled down, we had kids, andthen it really wasn't until
(04:33):
lockdown that my husband reallystruggled, and I don't know what
your experience was in the US.
From what I remember, it waspretty tough.
Here in London, england, where Ilive, we were suddenly in
lockdown and my husband, who hadreally relied on his job as
part of his social network,absolutely fell apart at the
(04:56):
concept of having to be stuck inour attic room, you know, just
with a computer screen, and hereally couldn't manage the
isolation and he couldn't managethe lack of contact he had with
his family.
He struggled, it was reallyhard and inevitably, without me
(05:21):
realizing, he turned more andmore to alcohol to a point where
it became incrediblyproblematic In short time yeah,
in quite a short time.
I look back and think, well, heprobably did over rely on drink
at various points, but nothingthat was one would ever say was
(05:44):
particularly really problematic.
And then so it was really inlockdown.
We had young kids.
They were, I think they weresix and eight or eight and 10,
maybe eight and 10.
So they were still in school,both in primary school here.
So we were having to homeeducate our kids whilst also
(06:06):
trying to hold down jobs, and hecouldn't manage the stress.
We couldn't go to the gymbecause the gyms were closed.
It was very difficult.
So increasingly he starteddrinking.
I didn't notice the magic ofvodka means you can't smell it
on his breath.
He was saying initially he wasdepressed, so he's on
(06:27):
antidepressants and maybe that'swhy he was falling asleep,
because the antidepressants weremaking him sleepy.
He had all sorts of excuses.
And so I look back and think Idid not see, I didn't see it
coming, I didn't see the signsuntil really had become quite
unmanageable.
He was drinking in secret.
(06:48):
He would take my daughter toschool and then buy vodka on the
way home and then he'd go andsit in the park and he'd drink.
And I thought he would beupstairs working, but he'd
slipped out and gone to the parkto have a drink.
Then he'd be asleep and he wasconstantly uh sort of either
hiding away somewhere or asleep.
(07:09):
Well, now I look back andrealize clearly he wasn't asleep
.
He was passed out because ofall the alcohol, um, but
eventually it got to the pointwhere he couldn't hide it
anymore and thankfully, throughhis work we got him into a rehab
.
But the rehab and the rehabhelped him for the 28 days that
(07:29):
he was in rehab.
But of course you come out andlife is really difficult to
readjust.
Suddenly, everybody knows thatyou've got this difficulty,
you're battling a lot of shame,you're still very, very early
doors in your recovery.
You know it's four weeks in andinevitably it all became too
(07:50):
much.
He came out just beforeChristmas 2020.
And it was incredibly tough.
We were still in lockdown.
We couldn't see anybody.
It was a really miserable time.
We couldn't see anybody.
It was, it was.
It was really miserable time.
Um and I was probably not alwaysthe most supportive wife uh, I
(08:11):
can be.
If I look back um, I was angry,I was exhausted, I was fed up
having to hold down everythingwith the kids and protect the
kids.
I was.
The mama bear in me came out.
You know it's all well and goodyou're doing this to yourself
and it's all well and goodyou're doing it to me, but you
can't do it to the kids.
(08:32):
This is not okay.
You know I, I would, I, youknow I can't promise that I was
always calm and collected.
I absolutely wasn't.
And I think, as he, as I,thought we were over the worst
because he'd he'd acknowledgedhe had a problem, he'd been to
(08:52):
rehab, he was trying to dealwith it.
He was now in therapy.
I thought I could just stopworrying about it.
And the minute I stoppedworrying about it, I became
incredibly angry.
Incredibly angry, you know,like, oh my gosh, we've been
doing this for a year.
You know there were otherthings going on in my life that
(09:13):
were problematic as well, thatthat my husband's drinking had
totally, you know, overwhelmedand I was.
I was so cross I mean, theanger was really anger, it was
upset and fear sadness, sure,yeah yeah, but it came out as
rage.
So I just became incrediblyangry in a in a very unhelpful
(09:36):
way, which I think then meant itwas even harder for he and I to
work together.
Because, sure, why would hewant to come to me?
Because I was just going to becross at him.
Oh, I was clearly cross,because I was often cross.
Um, and then we started ahelpful cycle of him relapsing,
hiding it, uh, promising he'd dobetter not, you know, and that
(10:01):
dabbling with the fellowship,deciding he could do it by
himself, slipping up all sortsof messes, and that continued
for the best part of two years,until in summer 2022, we sort of
(10:23):
hit the wall.
We sort of hit the wall.
We had a relapse in the July,just before we were about to go
on holiday.
So, and if the car hire had notbeen in my husband's name, the
car rental?
When I got, you knew I was, wewere flying to France and it was
(10:44):
the night before.
And if I hadn't thought, oh mygosh, how am I going to sort out
the car rental Because it's inhis name and I've no idea where
it was, I would have probablyblown with the kids and left him
passed out in bed.
But I thought to myself, comeon, don't do this to the kids.
And left him passed out in bed.
But I thought to myself, comeon, don't do this to the kids,
they don't know this hashappened, we'll be all right,
(11:05):
let's all go.
But I was so upset that he'ddone this because I was
desperate for a holiday and youknow so.
We did that in the July.
In the August, I had my cousins,who live in New York, flying
over to stay and literally theevening that they arrived, he
started drinking again and Ijust thought, oh, my goodness,
(11:27):
you know, there is no space formy life for us to do anything
without your drinking getting inthe way and dominating.
And literally in the September,just before our wedding
anniversary, again he relapsed.
And that three relapses inthree months finally made him
(11:53):
realize he'd had enough, whichwas good, because I I having
dabbled with, shall I leave him?
Is this the end?
Do we call time?
I'd always bounce back tothinking no, let's give him a
bit more space.
It's really tough on the kids.
But after that third relapse inthree months, I was, I was very
(12:17):
clear I can't do this anymoreand I really did step back and I
think that in part reallyhelped my husband, because I was
not interfering, I was notnagging.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Was that the turning point for him where he now has
almost two years sobriety?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you touched on a lot ofthings because you know, yes,
the pandemic, you know, is veryisolating and it happened here
as well, obviously, but in thesame respect, and when your, you
know, maybe addictions andstuff increased in that time.
(12:51):
But getting sober in that timewhen it's such a, it involves so
much community to really besuccessful.
Most of the time, um, it'sdifficult.
And then you know, so you can,you can see the increase of
stress and then see the increaseof drinking.
But then how difficult would itbe to to really sustain that if
(13:12):
you weren't already establishedin recovery?
I often thought about thosepeople who were not established
already.
So, yeah, you really trudgedthrough this these couple of
years.
You know that, like, you'vereally had a time with it, as so
many listeners can probablyrelate to.
You've identified so manythings that happen with the
hiding, the drinking, and youknow it's just part of it, right
(13:35):
, and so so what happens nextwhen he gets um, how did he seek
help and how did that changeyou all?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
He, he went back into the fellowship and this time he
did it properly and hecommitted to doing it.
And he, um he, at the beginninghe went to six meetings each
week.
So I think there was one day aweek that he didn't go to a
meeting, or sometimes he'd go toa meeting every day.
Uh, he committed to taking on arole at a meeting, so he had
(14:07):
reasons to go.
He he'd had enough.
He'd spent ages trying to livein a state of denial and ignore
his shame and just try andpretend it wasn't really
(14:31):
happening.
And he finally had had enoughbecause he was exhausted it
wasn't just me exhausted afterall this time it was everybody.
Yeah, and he was fully awarethat he wasn't functioning and,
yes, he had a drink problem, buthe's not a bad person and he
hadn't lost every aspect ofhimself and he's always loved
(14:53):
our kids and you know it's, Ithink it's.
I think people are quite quickto demonize.
You know people who havesubstance abuse issues.
They're not bad people, they'rejust struggling.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, sure, and I yeah, you've said that before
with the shame and of the shameof getting being in rehab Not
just the shame of getting beingin rehab, not just the shame of
drinking, you know, becauseoftentimes we don't really have
a name on it until we know andthen the shame of getting better
is not shame at all, like I hadthat and I experienced that
(15:30):
myself.
But now that I don't carryshame every time, I hear that
it's kind of like gosh, thedisease of alcoholism is real
right and so, just like you said, it's not a bad person trying
to get good right, it's a sickperson trying to get well.
That's what was told to me andit helped me because I thought,
(15:51):
wow, okay, because oftentimes wefeel so terrible about
ourselves, like how can I notget this right?
Why am I ruining myrelationships and, you know, not
only hurting myself but otherpeople.
Yeah, so there's really speaksto the disease of alcoholism
itself, which not everybody hasthat wants to quit, but some
(16:12):
people do and they need the help.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, and actually you know, you emphasize you, you
emphasize the word shame.
I felt shame.
There was a lot of shame.
I felt when my as a wife, as awife, that my husband was
drinking, so in his activeaddiction, I didn't want to tell
people, I didn't always want toask for help, I was trying to
protect him.
(16:34):
I didn't, you know, I madeexcuses for him, I didn't want
to expose him.
And then in recovery, you knowhe'd had this opportunity that
many people don't have to go torehab because it's I'm sure it's
the same way you are.
It's incredibly expensive here.
He'd had this opportunity andhe'd blown it.
(16:56):
You could say, you know he'sback to the beginning.
He was drinking again and Ididn't want people to think even
more badly of him.
So I didn't initially tellpeople when he he had relapsed,
because I didn't.
Again, I was back into thishabit of wanting to protect him,
wanting the best for him.
And then I very quicklyrealized that, anna, you are
(17:20):
shooting yourself in the foothere.
You can't do this by yourself.
You have got to let people into help you, to help our
children and to help my husband.
There's no shame here.
This is difficult.
Relapse is unfortunately areality.
It happens, it's going tohappen because you know the
(17:44):
rehab system over here it'spretty much 28 days and you're
out.
You don't have long periodsnormally and there's so little
that they can do in 28 days.
You're bound to continue tostruggle.
The work is still.
You know, there's still a lotof work to do and I think,
unfortunately for my husbandbeing in lockdown there, he was
(18:05):
briefly for 28 days in a littlebubble in his rehab centre with
these people who were around himall the time new people to be
excited by, to care for him, anda community within this rehab
center.
And then suddenly he's back outinto the real world.
But it's not the real world,it's lockdown and now he's back
(18:26):
up into his attic room all byhimself.
So he'd had 28 days of having acommunity around him to help
him and then he was back in thisisolated lockdown state that we
were all in.
So I look back and think well,of course he was going to
relapse, but at the time it wasjust.
We were just trying to surviveand I think the thing that
(18:48):
helped me as well as helped himwas bringing people in.
So he so that that awful July,august, september of 2022, each
time that happened, I toldpeople, I told my sister, I told
my parents, I told my friends,and they all love him.
They're not going to make himfeel worse, but I needed them to
(19:11):
know.
I couldn't carry the secret bymyself.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So how did that help you?
Like, just being honest.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Absolutely Just being honest, having an outlet.
I didn't want to talk about itall the time, but I just needed
people to know because the notknowing felt well, felt not true
and felt quite suffocating.
So I just needed people to knowwhat was really happening.
(19:38):
And, yes, my mom checked in onme and my sister, you know,
dropped around with a cake andmy friends, you know, invited me
out a bit more and peoplestepped up.
But really I just needed themto know because I don't want a
secret.
You know.
I think the secrets aroundaddiction is so punitive.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
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Now back to our guest.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
So I don't feel ashamed now in saying that my
husband is in recovery and Idon't feel ashamed around
telling his story.
I feel a little bad becauseit's his story to tell, but in a
sense it's our story and ourkids that that daddy goes to
meetings and that daddy doesn'tdrink, um, and, and, hopefully,
(21:24):
as time goes on, our family, youknow, and each time we sit down
to eat we have a littlegratitude conversation about
what are we grateful for.
Because what I've realized isand I'm through my work but also
through my husband's recoveryis there's so much within that
(21:44):
recovery, the recovery world andthe recovery program that
really we all should be doing.
This is like healthy living um,whether you have a substance
difficulty or not, uh, there'sso much richness in having a
much healthier way of living, amore open way of living, a more
(22:09):
service-based way of living,like I'll help you, you'll help
me, and and and we grow together.
And that's definitely somethingI see in my personal, private,
professional.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I agree with you a hundred percent.
You know, I remember being thiswas probably 18, 19 years ago
but there was a meeting and itwas inside a small school room
and there was just signs allaround the top of the you know
the, the walls and it said likeshare, say thank you, keep your
promises, like and that's reallywhat recovery is, on the daily
(22:46):
it, it you're continually tryingto be that better version of
yourself, like it's justcontinual, because life becomes
more peaceful.
It's easy.
You respect yourself, yourbehaviors are in line, so you're
not apt to go off and dosomething.
You're respecting the peoplethat you love.
(23:07):
You know it's just a very basicpractice and you know I love the
perspective of you as the wifeof an alcoholic because your
feelings and your emotions, theywere really it was a lot.
You felt all the sadness.
Then it turned to anger andrage.
(23:29):
Your mama bear protection cameout over your kids and
normalizing your house.
It's a lot to manage.
I would imagine it affects thewhole entire family system,
right?
Can you speak about that alittle bit, about how you kind
of handled yourself and how yougot better along the way?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
And well, I have to say I hold my hands up.
I haven't always handled myselfwell, but I think we all, you
know, you, you, you learn as yougo, I think, where I am now.
Well, first of all, I made themistakes lots of people make, so
in as much as they come out andyou can't help but fall into
(24:14):
the trap of monitoring.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
What are some of the mistakes that you made so people
can learn from them?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Oh, so I made a massive.
So one of the things I lookback and think thank goodness
I've stopped doing that.
I would track my husband on ourphones, you know, if he said
he'd gone to work or if he saidhe was going for a walk, was he
really going for a walk or washe going to the supermarket to
buy alcohol?
Where was he?
Has he gone to a meeting?
(24:41):
Is he in the meeting?
Has he left the meeting?
Has he walked out of themeeting?
So I will be constantlychecking on my phone.
Where is he?
Where is he?
And that was exhausting.
Like I have better things to bedoing than monitoring my
husband.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
So how'd you put that down?
When did you identify that thatwas not what you were supposed
to be doing and what you do now?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
now I don't bother, look, looking, except if he's
running late and I need to know,you know, whether he's five
minutes away or still stuck inthe office.
So I've stopped doing that nowand the freedom it gives me is
incredible.
I don't, and the time I getback and the time in my brain I
get back and I've stopped.
(25:23):
I've stopped.
Accident.
I used to accidentally, onpurpose, kick his bag to see if
there was a bottle of vodkahidden in it and I would check
through his bag to find out.
I've stopped monitoring.
And the minute you, when yourealize that that there is no
(25:46):
point in monitoring, I realizedI can't control this.
It's not my fault.
I didn't cause it.
I have no control over whetherhe's going to drink and I also
had to learn that whether hedrinks or not, it's not a
reflection on me or how he feelsabout me, or how he feels about
(26:06):
our family, or how how much heloves his children.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Oh, that's, so true, my goodness.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, it's not about that at all.
It's his unhealthy copingstrategies and his difficulty.
So me trying to assess ortrying to one-up him by trying
to find out whether he'ssecretly drinking or not, it's
going to make no difference atall, because what am I going to
do with that?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
that's such great advice because it's such a
heartbreak sometimes for peoplewatching.
You know somebody suffer likethat.
They think what did I do?
You know, what did I do?
Why don't they want to be here?
Why don't they want to be inpart of our family or next to us
?
Right, and it's like it's notthey do.
They're struggling, they do,but it's so hard to see
(26:55):
sometimes through the, the angerand the judgment and like what
you know.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
But you're it, the truth is they do, they do, they
absolutely do, and it's nosurprise to me that that my
husband's sobriety is down tothe community he's found in, the
fellowship.
And the fellowship may not beeverybody's thing, but there are
other communities that you canfall back on and and you need a
(27:22):
community around you.
You can't do this alone.
You absolutely can't.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I agree, I agree.
So you know you had you createda community called Anna's
Recovery Village on Substack andI'm really really encourage
listeners to go to your websiteand I'm really really encourage
listeners to go to your website,which you can let them know at
the end, because there's just alot of information there and
resources and you've createdthis village, which I love the
(27:53):
name.
Can you share a little bitabout that and why you did it
and how people can find that?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
So so years ago I used to be a journalist, so I
love writing.
When I was a kid, my fathermade me write a diary every day
for about 10 years of mychildhood.
So writing is a part of my well.
It's just probably the bestthing, the thing I'm best at.
So when I needed some kind ofoutlet and I wanted to do
(28:45):
something and I'd studied andI'd only you get part of the
picture, but not the wholepicture and I just thought let
me try and note down what I havelearned along the way, like
what are the things?
And I'm continuing to learn,like I continue to learn from my
husband, like you continue tolearn, like I continue to learn
from my husband, like youcontinue to learn.
Well, um, and I learn from myclients that I work with.
So I just wanted to startbuilding a resource and a place
(29:10):
where people could just come.
You know, I'm not a yes, I'm anaddiction therapist, but I'm
not a medically trained doctor.
I I don't.
Um, I'm also writing from myexperience as the spouse of
somebody and somebody who livesthis.
So I just wanted to write in avery friendly, non-academic,
(29:32):
non-medical type way.
This is happening to me.
This is relevant because thisis in my mind this week and
hopefully over, and that's it'sstill new and it's very new and
it's just growing.
But my hope is that people willjust join and then they'll
contribute their articles andthen we'll really have a little
(29:55):
community.
And I called it Anna's recoveryvillage because I am very, very
much aware like, just like youknow, it takes a village to
raise a child.
It's going to take villages tohelp me.
It's going to.
I need a village around me todo this.
I can't do this by myself.
I can't recover and myrelationship can't recover and
my family can't recover.
(30:16):
If we're going to think we cando it all by ourselves.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, so true.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
We need to true.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, it's so helpful when you get next to people who
understand what you're goingthrough.
It's just.
The support system iseverything.
It just.
It changes your perspective.
You can laugh at things thatare not laughable.
Just on and on, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah and I.
I found a local group nearbywhere I live and I go once a
week and I was telling one of Iwas talking about the story of
how my husband used to beobsessed with going to the
supermarket and I thought he wasbeing really helpful um, but of
course going to buy alcohol.
(31:01):
And afterwards another of myclients, another woman in the
group, came up and said myhusband used to do exactly the
same and now I can't walk pastthat supermarket without feeling
rage.
So just really silly littleanecdotes about what addiction,
how the addiction has played outin your life.
(31:23):
When you are able to connectwith somebody else who has their
own little version of howaddiction has played out, it's
so healing, I think, and sorewarding and really really
beneficial.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
So what is life like now at home?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Very calm my kids.
I can't my daughter.
So my daughter is now 13, goingon 14, and my son is 11, going
on 12.
My son was, as the youngest onewas, probably the most affected
.
He was upset.
He missed his dad.
He didn't understand why daddywas still asleep.
(32:04):
He had become over-reliant onme as the functioning parent, as
the present one.
So over the last couple ofyears he has started to really
bond a lot more again with hisfather, which is lovely to see.
(32:26):
It also takes the pressure offme that I don't have to be the
one he always instinctivelyturns to.
He can trust his dad again.
My daughter luckily had a hugegroup of friends who protected
her.
I think through a lot of it,but we have, we're quite an open
family.
There's no secrets.
My kids instinctively ask theirdads oh, if you got a meeting
(32:51):
today, you had a meeting andthey know why he's going to the
meetings.
So I think we're a lot calmerand really one high point for me
um, this year was that my songot two, three offers to three
fantastic schools and twoscholarships and I just thought
(33:14):
this isn't because my kid'ssmart, it's also because he's
emotionally smart andemotionally resilient and I
would not have imagined that wecould.
My husband and I could havehelped him, nurture him, support
him.
My husband was the one who wastaking him to sports things and
sports events and my son's gotthis incredible sports
(33:36):
scholarship to a great schooland we've done that together and
that's that's great, great,yeah you brought it.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
You brought up such a good point, you know, as as a
mom, right.
So I have three children aswell, similar ages, and you know
we often say like, you know,how are they doing, like?
But we see, you know, you canlook to the evidence of um, how
they're doing socially withtheir friends and also in their
sports and also academically,you know, and if those things
(34:04):
are excelling, I mean those arethe things that drop when kids
aren't feeling well or doingwell.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
You know, but I think , yeah, that's the, that's the
gift of having a home that isfunctioning you know, if not
just functioning again, you know, for some, and along the way
we've been, we've all beenforced to not to learn how to
(34:29):
have the emotional conversations.
So if my son that he can tellme he's upset.
And he tells me he's upset andwe we work with that and my
daughter tells me that she'supset and they know they can be
crossed with me and it will beokay.
So we've all.
I think we're doing pretty wellon the emotional intelligence
scale.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yes, you know you're a therapist, psychotherapist and
addictionist therapist and apsychosexual therapist Yep and
your husband's in recovery.
So the communication in yourhome must be wonderful and your
kids not always.
Well, you know, like I mean youhave the tools to.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah, we know how to out.
Yes, yeah, we know how toapologize and repair things when
we're wrong, and I think that'sprobably the greatest life
skill I've teacheded my kidsthat if they mess up, they can
apologize and it will be okay.
They have to fess up and thenwe'll deal with it.
(35:29):
So, yes, our communication is alot better than it was, you
know, three, four years ago.
It's not brilliant, but we'reall working at it and we're a
pretty tight little group now.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
So if there's something that you could tell
someone who's listening, who isin a relationship with someone
who has active alcoholism, whatwould you say?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
I would say please look after yourself, please put
some boundaries in place, pleaserecognize what is their stuff
and what is your stuff.
Please do not do what I did andtip into trying to manage the
situation, because this is notsomething that you can manage by
(36:18):
yourself.
It is not something that youcan manage by yourself.
Please don't take it personally.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Please don't try and take control of it.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Please love them, but from a distance, you know but
from a distance.
Yeah.
You know, is there anyresources that you would direct
them to in order to do that?
Well, they can come find me onSubstack and come and share
their experiences.
Well, I have found lots ofpeople have found Al-Anon to be
(36:49):
really helpful, but there areother kind of groups similar to
that.
We have Smart Recovery here inthe UK.
There will be other resources.
Please tell people.
That's probably the number onething I would say.
Please don't keep it a secret.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Tell a friend.
It sounds like from yourconversation before that honesty
.
Once you got honest with thepeople around you about what was
happening inside your home,that's when you found a lot of
freedom.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Absolutely so.
Look after yourselves, behonest, lean on other people.
Try not to do this by yourself.
Be mindful that they are ontheir own journey.
It's not your journey, andplease don't tip into trying to
(37:39):
do it for them, because theyhave to do it by themselves.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
A lot of great insights.
Thank you so much.
So could you let listeners knowwhere they can find you during
the week and also where you'relocated on the internets?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
So, geographically, I'm in London and that's where I
work and live and see myclients.
Uh, I have a website,kingsleycounselingcom, where I
work with, with individuals andcouples who have relationship
difficulties or whose lives havebeen affected by addiction, and
(38:18):
I'm hoping to set up a groupprogram to help couples recover
together rather than to be doingit separately.
So that's my big project for2024.
And I'm on Substack as well, socome and check out Anna's
Recovery Village.
I'd love to see you there.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, and I'm going to put all of that in the show
notes.
If you have or would likeresources, check out Anna's
website.
Also, I encourage you to headover to, if you're on Substack,
go to Anna's Recovery Village toread articles and also to
submit your own.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Please do.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, thank you so much for being here.
I appreciate all the insight.
It was a great perspective.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Thank you, thank you, perspective.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for tuning into theSober Living Stories podcast.
If you have been inspired,consider subscribing and sharing
with anyone who could use hopein their lives.
Remember to stay tuned for moreinspiring stories in the
episodes to come To view ourfeatured author of the month or
to become a
If you or someone you know is married to an active
alcoholic, perhaps you're inrecovery yourself and partnered
with someone who's in recoveryand your relationships are
struggling and you want toreconnect in different ways,
then my next episode is for you.
Her name is Anna.
She's coming from London.
She's a psychotherapist.
She's also the wife of anactive alcoholic who now has two
(00:21):
years sober.
She takes us inside her houseduring the pandemic, kind of
shows us what that look and looklike and felt like to be
sitting next to someone who wasstruggling and didn't know how
to get well until he did.
She has a growing community ofthose affected by addiction
called Anna's Recovery Villagein Substack, which is loaded
(00:43):
with articles and resources,along with her website.
She herself is an addictiontherapist.
She's also helping couples findways to stay connected in
recovery.
So tune in.
Welcome to the Sober LivingStories podcast.
(01:03):
This podcast is dedicated tosharing stories of sobriety.
We shine a spotlight onindividuals who have faced the
challenges of alcoholism andaddiction and are today living
out their best lives sober.
Each guest has experiencedincredible transformation and
are here to share their storywith you.
I'm Jessica Stepanovic, yourhost.
(01:24):
Join me each week as guestsfrom all walks of life share
their story with you.
I'm Jessica Stepanovic, yourhost.
Join me each week as guestsfrom all walks of life share
their stories to inspire andprovide hope to those who need
it most.
(01:54):
Hi and welcome to anotherepisode of the Sober Living
Stories podcast.
Meet Anna Kingsley as sheshares her personal story as the
wife of an alcoholic who is,after quite a few relapses, 20
months sober.
Today, she's going to share herpersonal and professional
experience and she's going totalk about how couples can find
ways to stay connected inrecovery.
She has a growing community forthose affected by addiction
(02:17):
called Anna's Recovery Village,which you can find on Substack
and a website packed withresources.
Welcome to the show, anna.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Thank you so much.
I'm really glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
You're coming here from London and it's so good to
have you.
So, yeah, please share as farback on your personal story and
your personal experience beingable to give listeners the
perspective of being in relationwith someone who is an active
alcoholism or addiction and thenfollowing them through into
recovery, Because we do havesome listeners who are also
partnered and they're both inrecovery.
So I know that you are atherapist who has experience in
(02:58):
all of these areas, so we'reexcited to hear you today.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oh, thank you.
So let me think where I need tostart, probably actually before
I met my husband.
So the relationship I was in inmy 20s was with a very
charismatic man, very, quiteseductive, very friendly, very
outgoing, very dynamic.
And it wasn't until the veryend of our relationship, where
(03:25):
everything rather imploded, thatI found out that he actually
had a gambling addiction and ithad become so much he couldn't
deal with it and therelationship ended.
There was some money that wentmissing.
It was very, very destructiveat the end and clearly there was
(03:47):
a lot of shame around hisdifficulties.
He hid it from everybody.
So that relationship ended verymessily and he struggled to
find a way to deal with hisaddiction, and it carried on.
Find a way to deal with hisaddiction, and it carried on.
And so when I met my husband Ithought this guy's fantastic,
(04:08):
he's solid, he's secure, he'sgot great stable family, he can
write in full sentences, he'sgot a secure job, his sister
loves him, everything's going tobe great and everything was
great.
We got together, we had a lotof fun, we went traveling, we
settled down, we had kids, andthen it really wasn't until
(04:33):
lockdown that my husband reallystruggled, and I don't know what
your experience was in the US.
From what I remember, it waspretty tough.
Here in London, england, where Ilive, we were suddenly in
lockdown and my husband, who hadreally relied on his job as
part of his social network,absolutely fell apart at the
(04:56):
concept of having to be stuck inour attic room, you know, just
with a computer screen, and hereally couldn't manage the
isolation and he couldn't managethe lack of contact he had with
his family.
He struggled, it was reallyhard and inevitably, without me
(05:21):
realizing, he turned more andmore to alcohol to a point where
it became incrediblyproblematic In short time yeah,
in quite a short time.
I look back and think, well, heprobably did over rely on drink
at various points, but nothingthat was one would ever say was
(05:44):
particularly really problematic.
And then so it was really inlockdown.
We had young kids.
They were, I think they weresix and eight or eight and 10,
maybe eight and 10.
So they were still in school,both in primary school here.
So we were having to homeeducate our kids whilst also
(06:06):
trying to hold down jobs, and hecouldn't manage the stress.
We couldn't go to the gymbecause the gyms were closed.
It was very difficult.
So increasingly he starteddrinking.
I didn't notice the magic ofvodka means you can't smell it
on his breath.
He was saying initially he wasdepressed, so he's on
(06:27):
antidepressants and maybe that'swhy he was falling asleep,
because the antidepressants weremaking him sleepy.
He had all sorts of excuses.
And so I look back and think Idid not see, I didn't see it
coming, I didn't see the signsuntil really had become quite
unmanageable.
He was drinking in secret.
(06:48):
He would take my daughter toschool and then buy vodka on the
way home and then he'd go andsit in the park and he'd drink.
And I thought he would beupstairs working, but he'd
slipped out and gone to the parkto have a drink.
Then he'd be asleep and he wasconstantly uh sort of either
hiding away somewhere or asleep.
(07:09):
Well, now I look back andrealize clearly he wasn't asleep
.
He was passed out because ofall the alcohol, um, but
eventually it got to the pointwhere he couldn't hide it
anymore and thankfully, throughhis work we got him into a rehab
.
But the rehab and the rehabhelped him for the 28 days that
(07:29):
he was in rehab.
But of course you come out andlife is really difficult to
readjust.
Suddenly, everybody knows thatyou've got this difficulty,
you're battling a lot of shame,you're still very, very early
doors in your recovery.
You know it's four weeks in andinevitably it all became too
(07:50):
much.
He came out just beforeChristmas 2020.
And it was incredibly tough.
We were still in lockdown.
We couldn't see anybody.
It was a really miserable time.
We couldn't see anybody.
It was, it was.
It was really miserable time.
Um and I was probably not alwaysthe most supportive wife uh, I
(08:11):
can be.
If I look back um, I was angry,I was exhausted, I was fed up
having to hold down everythingwith the kids and protect the
kids.
I was.
The mama bear in me came out.
You know it's all well and goodyou're doing this to yourself
and it's all well and goodyou're doing it to me, but you
can't do it to the kids.
(08:32):
This is not okay.
You know I, I would, I, youknow I can't promise that I was
always calm and collected.
I absolutely wasn't.
And I think, as he, as I,thought we were over the worst
because he'd he'd acknowledgedhe had a problem, he'd been to
(08:52):
rehab, he was trying to dealwith it.
He was now in therapy.
I thought I could just stopworrying about it.
And the minute I stoppedworrying about it, I became
incredibly angry.
Incredibly angry, you know,like, oh my gosh, we've been
doing this for a year.
You know there were otherthings going on in my life that
(09:13):
were problematic as well, thatthat my husband's drinking had
totally, you know, overwhelmedand I was.
I was so cross I mean, theanger was really anger, it was
upset and fear sadness, sure,yeah yeah, but it came out as
rage.
So I just became incrediblyangry in a in a very unhelpful
(09:36):
way, which I think then meant itwas even harder for he and I to
work together.
Because, sure, why would hewant to come to me?
Because I was just going to becross at him.
Oh, I was clearly cross,because I was often cross.
Um, and then we started ahelpful cycle of him relapsing,
hiding it, uh, promising he'd dobetter not, you know, and that
(10:01):
dabbling with the fellowship,deciding he could do it by
himself, slipping up all sortsof messes, and that continued
for the best part of two years,until in summer 2022, we sort of
(10:23):
hit the wall.
We sort of hit the wall.
We had a relapse in the July,just before we were about to go
on holiday.
So, and if the car hire had notbeen in my husband's name, the
car rental?
When I got, you knew I was, wewere flying to France and it was
(10:44):
the night before.
And if I hadn't thought, oh mygosh, how am I going to sort out
the car rental Because it's inhis name and I've no idea where
it was, I would have probablyblown with the kids and left him
passed out in bed.
But I thought to myself, comeon, don't do this to the kids.
And left him passed out in bed.
But I thought to myself, comeon, don't do this to the kids,
they don't know this hashappened, we'll be all right,
(11:05):
let's all go.
But I was so upset that he'ddone this because I was
desperate for a holiday and youknow so.
We did that in the July.
In the August, I had my cousins,who live in New York, flying
over to stay and literally theevening that they arrived, he
started drinking again and Ijust thought, oh, my goodness,
(11:27):
you know, there is no space formy life for us to do anything
without your drinking getting inthe way and dominating.
And literally in the September,just before our wedding
anniversary, again he relapsed.
And that three relapses inthree months finally made him
(11:53):
realize he'd had enough, whichwas good, because I I having
dabbled with, shall I leave him?
Is this the end?
Do we call time?
I'd always bounce back tothinking no, let's give him a
bit more space.
It's really tough on the kids.
But after that third relapse inthree months, I was, I was very
(12:17):
clear I can't do this anymoreand I really did step back and I
think that in part reallyhelped my husband, because I was
not interfering, I was notnagging.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Was that the turning point for him where he now has
almost two years sobriety?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you touched on a lot ofthings because you know, yes,
the pandemic, you know, is veryisolating and it happened here
as well, obviously, but in thesame respect, and when your, you
know, maybe addictions andstuff increased in that time.
(12:51):
But getting sober in that timewhen it's such a, it involves so
much community to really besuccessful.
Most of the time, um, it'sdifficult.
And then you know, so you can,you can see the increase of
stress and then see the increaseof drinking.
But then how difficult would itbe to to really sustain that if
(13:12):
you weren't already establishedin recovery?
I often thought about thosepeople who were not established
already.
So, yeah, you really trudgedthrough this these couple of
years.
You know that, like, you'vereally had a time with it, as so
many listeners can probablyrelate to.
You've identified so manythings that happen with the
hiding, the drinking, and youknow it's just part of it, right
(13:35):
, and so so what happens nextwhen he gets um, how did he seek
help and how did that changeyou all?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
He, he went back into the fellowship and this time he
did it properly and hecommitted to doing it.
And he, um he, at the beginninghe went to six meetings each
week.
So I think there was one day aweek that he didn't go to a
meeting, or sometimes he'd go toa meeting every day.
Uh, he committed to taking on arole at a meeting, so he had
(14:07):
reasons to go.
He he'd had enough.
He'd spent ages trying to livein a state of denial and ignore
his shame and just try andpretend it wasn't really
(14:31):
happening.
And he finally had had enoughbecause he was exhausted it
wasn't just me exhausted afterall this time it was everybody.
Yeah, and he was fully awarethat he wasn't functioning and,
yes, he had a drink problem, buthe's not a bad person and he
hadn't lost every aspect ofhimself and he's always loved
(14:53):
our kids and you know it's, Ithink it's.
I think people are quite quickto demonize.
You know people who havesubstance abuse issues.
They're not bad people, they'rejust struggling.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, sure, and I yeah, you've said that before
with the shame and of the shameof getting being in rehab Not
just the shame of getting beingin rehab, not just the shame of
drinking, you know, becauseoftentimes we don't really have
a name on it until we know andthen the shame of getting better
is not shame at all, like I hadthat and I experienced that
(15:30):
myself.
But now that I don't carryshame every time, I hear that
it's kind of like gosh, thedisease of alcoholism is real
right and so, just like you said, it's not a bad person trying
to get good right, it's a sickperson trying to get well.
That's what was told to me andit helped me because I thought,
(15:51):
wow, okay, because oftentimes wefeel so terrible about
ourselves, like how can I notget this right?
Why am I ruining myrelationships and, you know, not
only hurting myself but otherpeople.
Yeah, so there's really speaksto the disease of alcoholism
itself, which not everybody hasthat wants to quit, but some
(16:12):
people do and they need the help.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, and actually you know, you emphasize you, you
emphasize the word shame.
I felt shame.
There was a lot of shame.
I felt when my as a wife, as awife, that my husband was
drinking, so in his activeaddiction, I didn't want to tell
people, I didn't always want toask for help, I was trying to
protect him.
(16:34):
I didn't, you know, I madeexcuses for him, I didn't want
to expose him.
And then in recovery, you knowhe'd had this opportunity that
many people don't have to go torehab because it's I'm sure it's
the same way you are.
It's incredibly expensive here.
He'd had this opportunity andhe'd blown it.
(16:56):
You could say, you know he'sback to the beginning.
He was drinking again and Ididn't want people to think even
more badly of him.
So I didn't initially tellpeople when he he had relapsed,
because I didn't.
Again, I was back into thishabit of wanting to protect him,
wanting the best for him.
And then I very quicklyrealized that, anna, you are
(17:20):
shooting yourself in the foothere.
You can't do this by yourself.
You have got to let people into help you, to help our
children and to help my husband.
There's no shame here.
This is difficult.
Relapse is unfortunately areality.
It happens, it's going tohappen because you know the
(17:44):
rehab system over here it'spretty much 28 days and you're
out.
You don't have long periodsnormally and there's so little
that they can do in 28 days.
You're bound to continue tostruggle.
The work is still.
You know, there's still a lotof work to do and I think,
unfortunately for my husbandbeing in lockdown there, he was
(18:05):
briefly for 28 days in a littlebubble in his rehab centre with
these people who were around himall the time new people to be
excited by, to care for him, anda community within this rehab
center.
And then suddenly he's back outinto the real world.
But it's not the real world,it's lockdown and now he's back
(18:26):
up into his attic room all byhimself.
So he'd had 28 days of having acommunity around him to help
him and then he was back in thisisolated lockdown state that we
were all in.
So I look back and think well,of course he was going to
relapse, but at the time it wasjust.
We were just trying to surviveand I think the thing that
(18:48):
helped me as well as helped himwas bringing people in.
So he so that that awful July,august, september of 2022, each
time that happened, I toldpeople, I told my sister, I told
my parents, I told my friends,and they all love him.
They're not going to make himfeel worse, but I needed them to
(19:11):
know.
I couldn't carry the secret bymyself.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So how did that help you?
Like, just being honest.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Absolutely Just being honest, having an outlet.
I didn't want to talk about itall the time, but I just needed
people to know because the notknowing felt well, felt not true
and felt quite suffocating.
So I just needed people to knowwhat was really happening.
(19:38):
And, yes, my mom checked in onme and my sister, you know,
dropped around with a cake andmy friends, you know, invited me
out a bit more and peoplestepped up.
But really I just needed themto know because I don't want a
secret.
You know.
I think the secrets aroundaddiction is so punitive.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
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(20:23):
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(20:44):
Visit wwwsoberlinkcom backslashsober dash living and check out
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device today.
Now back to our guest.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
So I don't feel ashamed now in saying that my
husband is in recovery and Idon't feel ashamed around
telling his story.
I feel a little bad becauseit's his story to tell, but in a
sense it's our story and ourkids that that daddy goes to
meetings and that daddy doesn'tdrink, um, and, and, hopefully,
(21:24):
as time goes on, our family, youknow, and each time we sit down
to eat we have a littlegratitude conversation about
what are we grateful for.
Because what I've realized isand I'm through my work but also
through my husband's recoveryis there's so much within that
(21:44):
recovery, the recovery world andthe recovery program that
really we all should be doing.
This is like healthy living um,whether you have a substance
difficulty or not, uh, there'sso much richness in having a
much healthier way of living, amore open way of living, a more
(22:09):
service-based way of living,like I'll help you, you'll help
me, and and and we grow together.
And that's definitely somethingI see in my personal, private,
professional.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I agree with you a hundred percent.
You know, I remember being thiswas probably 18, 19 years ago
but there was a meeting and itwas inside a small school room
and there was just signs allaround the top of the you know
the, the walls and it said likeshare, say thank you, keep your
promises, like and that's reallywhat recovery is, on the daily
(22:46):
it, it you're continually tryingto be that better version of
yourself, like it's justcontinual, because life becomes
more peaceful.
It's easy.
You respect yourself, yourbehaviors are in line, so you're
not apt to go off and dosomething.
You're respecting the peoplethat you love.
(23:07):
You know it's just a very basicpractice and you know I love the
perspective of you as the wifeof an alcoholic because your
feelings and your emotions, theywere really it was a lot.
You felt all the sadness.
Then it turned to anger andrage.
(23:29):
Your mama bear protection cameout over your kids and
normalizing your house.
It's a lot to manage.
I would imagine it affects thewhole entire family system,
right?
Can you speak about that alittle bit, about how you kind
of handled yourself and how yougot better along the way?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
And well, I have to say I hold my hands up.
I haven't always handled myselfwell, but I think we all, you
know, you, you, you learn as yougo, I think, where I am now.
Well, first of all, I made themistakes lots of people make, so
in as much as they come out andyou can't help but fall into
(24:14):
the trap of monitoring.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
What are some of the mistakes that you made so people
can learn from them?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Oh, so I made a massive.
So one of the things I lookback and think thank goodness
I've stopped doing that.
I would track my husband on ourphones, you know, if he said
he'd gone to work or if he saidhe was going for a walk, was he
really going for a walk or washe going to the supermarket to
buy alcohol?
Where was he?
Has he gone to a meeting?
(24:41):
Is he in the meeting?
Has he left the meeting?
Has he walked out of themeeting?
So I will be constantlychecking on my phone.
Where is he?
Where is he?
And that was exhausting.
Like I have better things to bedoing than monitoring my
husband.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
So how'd you put that down?
When did you identify that thatwas not what you were supposed
to be doing and what you do now?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
now I don't bother, look, looking, except if he's
running late and I need to know,you know, whether he's five
minutes away or still stuck inthe office.
So I've stopped doing that nowand the freedom it gives me is
incredible.
I don't, and the time I getback and the time in my brain I
get back and I've stopped.
(25:23):
I've stopped.
Accident.
I used to accidentally, onpurpose, kick his bag to see if
there was a bottle of vodkahidden in it and I would check
through his bag to find out.
I've stopped monitoring.
And the minute you, when yourealize that that there is no
(25:46):
point in monitoring, I realizedI can't control this.
It's not my fault.
I didn't cause it.
I have no control over whetherhe's going to drink and I also
had to learn that whether hedrinks or not, it's not a
reflection on me or how he feelsabout me, or how he feels about
(26:06):
our family, or how how much heloves his children.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Oh, that's, so true, my goodness.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, it's not about that at all.
It's his unhealthy copingstrategies and his difficulty.
So me trying to assess ortrying to one-up him by trying
to find out whether he'ssecretly drinking or not, it's
going to make no difference atall, because what am I going to
do with that?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
that's such great advice because it's such a
heartbreak sometimes for peoplewatching.
You know somebody suffer likethat.
They think what did I do?
You know, what did I do?
Why don't they want to be here?
Why don't they want to be inpart of our family or next to us
?
Right, and it's like it's notthey do.
They're struggling, they do,but it's so hard to see
(26:55):
sometimes through the, the angerand the judgment and like what
you know.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
But you're it, the truth is they do, they do, they
absolutely do, and it's nosurprise to me that that my
husband's sobriety is down tothe community he's found in, the
fellowship.
And the fellowship may not beeverybody's thing, but there are
other communities that you canfall back on and and you need a
(27:22):
community around you.
You can't do this alone.
You absolutely can't.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I agree, I agree.
So you know you had you createda community called Anna's
Recovery Village on Substack andI'm really really encourage
listeners to go to your websiteand I'm really really encourage
listeners to go to your website,which you can let them know at
the end, because there's just alot of information there and
resources and you've createdthis village, which I love the
(27:53):
name.
Can you share a little bitabout that and why you did it
and how people can find that?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
So so years ago I used to be a journalist, so I
love writing.
When I was a kid, my fathermade me write a diary every day
for about 10 years of mychildhood.
So writing is a part of my well.
It's just probably the bestthing, the thing I'm best at.
So when I needed some kind ofoutlet and I wanted to do
(28:45):
something and I'd studied andI'd only you get part of the
picture, but not the wholepicture and I just thought let
me try and note down what I havelearned along the way, like
what are the things?
And I'm continuing to learn,like I continue to learn from my
husband, like you continue tolearn, like I continue to learn
from my husband, like youcontinue to learn.
Well, um, and I learn from myclients that I work with.
So I just wanted to startbuilding a resource and a place
(29:10):
where people could just come.
You know, I'm not a yes, I'm anaddiction therapist, but I'm
not a medically trained doctor.
I I don't.
Um, I'm also writing from myexperience as the spouse of
somebody and somebody who livesthis.
So I just wanted to write in avery friendly, non-academic,
(29:32):
non-medical type way.
This is happening to me.
This is relevant because thisis in my mind this week and
hopefully over, and that's it'sstill new and it's very new and
it's just growing.
But my hope is that people willjust join and then they'll
contribute their articles andthen we'll really have a little
(29:55):
community.
And I called it Anna's recoveryvillage because I am very, very
much aware like, just like youknow, it takes a village to
raise a child.
It's going to take villages tohelp me.
It's going to.
I need a village around me todo this.
I can't do this by myself.
I can't recover and myrelationship can't recover and
my family can't recover.
(30:16):
If we're going to think we cando it all by ourselves.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, so true.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
We need to true.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, it's so helpful when you get next to people who
understand what you're goingthrough.
It's just.
The support system iseverything.
It just.
It changes your perspective.
You can laugh at things thatare not laughable.
Just on and on, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah and I.
I found a local group nearbywhere I live and I go once a
week and I was telling one of Iwas talking about the story of
how my husband used to beobsessed with going to the
supermarket and I thought he wasbeing really helpful um, but of
course going to buy alcohol.
(31:01):
And afterwards another of myclients, another woman in the
group, came up and said myhusband used to do exactly the
same and now I can't walk pastthat supermarket without feeling
rage.
So just really silly littleanecdotes about what addiction,
how the addiction has played outin your life.
(31:23):
When you are able to connectwith somebody else who has their
own little version of howaddiction has played out, it's
so healing, I think, and sorewarding and really really
beneficial.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
So what is life like now at home?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Very calm my kids.
I can't my daughter.
So my daughter is now 13, goingon 14, and my son is 11, going
on 12.
My son was, as the youngest onewas, probably the most affected
.
He was upset.
He missed his dad.
He didn't understand why daddywas still asleep.
(32:04):
He had become over-reliant onme as the functioning parent, as
the present one.
So over the last couple ofyears he has started to really
bond a lot more again with hisfather, which is lovely to see.
(32:26):
It also takes the pressure offme that I don't have to be the
one he always instinctivelyturns to.
He can trust his dad again.
My daughter luckily had a hugegroup of friends who protected
her.
I think through a lot of it,but we have, we're quite an open
family.
There's no secrets.
My kids instinctively ask theirdads oh, if you got a meeting
(32:51):
today, you had a meeting andthey know why he's going to the
meetings.
So I think we're a lot calmerand really one high point for me
um, this year was that my songot two, three offers to three
fantastic schools and twoscholarships and I just thought
(33:14):
this isn't because my kid'ssmart, it's also because he's
emotionally smart andemotionally resilient and I
would not have imagined that wecould.
My husband and I could havehelped him, nurture him, support
him.
My husband was the one who wastaking him to sports things and
sports events and my son's gotthis incredible sports
(33:36):
scholarship to a great schooland we've done that together and
that's that's great, great,yeah you brought it.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
You brought up such a good point, you know, as as a
mom, right.
So I have three children aswell, similar ages, and you know
we often say like, you know,how are they doing, like?
But we see, you know, you canlook to the evidence of um, how
they're doing socially withtheir friends and also in their
sports and also academically,you know, and if those things
(34:04):
are excelling, I mean those arethe things that drop when kids
aren't feeling well or doingwell.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
You know, but I think , yeah, that's the, that's the
gift of having a home that isfunctioning you know, if not
just functioning again, you know, for some, and along the way
we've been, we've all beenforced to not to learn how to
(34:29):
have the emotional conversations.
So if my son that he can tellme he's upset.
And he tells me he's upset andwe we work with that and my
daughter tells me that she'supset and they know they can be
crossed with me and it will beokay.
So we've all.
I think we're doing pretty wellon the emotional intelligence
scale.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yes, you know you're a therapist, psychotherapist and
addictionist therapist and apsychosexual therapist Yep and
your husband's in recovery.
So the communication in yourhome must be wonderful and your
kids not always.
Well, you know, like I mean youhave the tools to.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah, we know how to out.
Yes, yeah, we know how toapologize and repair things when
we're wrong, and I think that'sprobably the greatest life
skill I've teacheded my kidsthat if they mess up, they can
apologize and it will be okay.
They have to fess up and thenwe'll deal with it.
(35:29):
So, yes, our communication is alot better than it was, you
know, three, four years ago.
It's not brilliant, but we'reall working at it and we're a
pretty tight little group now.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
So if there's something that you could tell
someone who's listening, who isin a relationship with someone
who has active alcoholism, whatwould you say?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
I would say please look after yourself, please put
some boundaries in place, pleaserecognize what is their stuff
and what is your stuff.
Please do not do what I did andtip into trying to manage the
situation, because this is notsomething that you can manage by
(36:18):
yourself.
It is not something that youcan manage by yourself.
Please don't take it personally.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Please don't try and take control of it.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Please love them, but from a distance, you know but
from a distance.
Yeah.
You know, is there anyresources that you would direct
them to in order to do that?
Well, they can come find me onSubstack and come and share
their experiences.
Well, I have found lots ofpeople have found Al-Anon to be
(36:49):
really helpful, but there areother kind of groups similar to
that.
We have Smart Recovery here inthe UK.
There will be other resources.
Please tell people.
That's probably the number onething I would say.
Please don't keep it a secret.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Tell a friend.
It sounds like from yourconversation before that honesty
.
Once you got honest with thepeople around you about what was
happening inside your home,that's when you found a lot of
freedom.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Absolutely so.
Look after yourselves, behonest, lean on other people.
Try not to do this by yourself.
Be mindful that they are ontheir own journey.
It's not your journey, andplease don't tip into trying to
(37:39):
do it for them, because theyhave to do it by themselves.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
A lot of great insights.
Thank you so much.
So could you let listeners knowwhere they can find you during
the week and also where you'relocated on the internets?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
So, geographically, I'm in London and that's where I
work and live and see myclients.
Uh, I have a website,kingsleycounselingcom, where I
work with, with individuals andcouples who have relationship
difficulties or whose lives havebeen affected by addiction, and
(38:18):
I'm hoping to set up a groupprogram to help couples recover
together rather than to be doingit separately.
So that's my big project for2024.
And I'm on Substack as well, socome and check out Anna's
Recovery Village.
I'd love to see you there.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, and I'm going to put all of that in the show
notes.
If you have or would likeresources, check out Anna's
website.
Also, I encourage you to headover to, if you're on Substack,
go to Anna's Recovery Village toread articles and also to
submit your own.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Please do.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, thank you so much for being here.
I appreciate all the insight.
It was a great perspective.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Thank you, thank you, perspective.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for tuning into theSober Living Stories podcast.
If you have been inspired,consider subscribing and sharing
with anyone who could use hopein their lives.
Remember to stay tuned for moreinspiring stories in the
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