August 15, 2025 • 39 mins
The complexity of addiction extends far beyond what most people understand. Join Jessica Stipanovic and Psychologist Faust Ruggiero, with over 35 years of clinical experience, as they bring profound insight into this challenging territory on the latest Sober Living Stories podcast.
Ruggiero's approach to addiction recovery challenges conventional thinking. "When you talk about addiction, people almost always go right to drugs or alcohol," he explains, before revealing he's identified at least 17 distinct addiction patterns in his latest book. From gambling and food addiction to exercise obsession, these compulsions share fundamental neurological mechanisms despite their surface differences.
What sets Ruggiero's methodology apart is his action-oriented framework. "I like to write the way I counsel," he shares. "Let's get all the information about you, let's give you all the information about your addiction, and then let's give you action steps." This practical approach mirrors successful 12-step programs, which are essentially structured action plans for recovery.
The family dimension of addiction receives particular attention throughout the conversation. Ruggiero emphasizes that addiction creates ripple effects through entire family systems, with members developing coping mechanisms that often enable continued addiction. "Nobody gets out of this unscathed," he notes, highlighting why recovery must involve healing family dynamics alongside individual healing.
Perhaps most hopeful is Ruggiero's perspective on the brain's adaptability. Through consistent practice and proper support, the addicted brain can learn new patterns of satisfaction without extreme stimulation. "Our brains learn and learning is just repetition," he explains, offering a powerful counterpoint to the misconception that addiction represents an unchangeable aspect of identity.
In the summer of 2016, Mr. Ruggiero began to develop The Fix Yourself
Empowerment Series based on the Process Life Program to help readers address the difficult situations in their lives. He has appeared on television, radio shows, and podcasts, both national and international, to discuss the Process Way of Life. His radio show “Fix It With Faust” debuted in June 2021. On June 8, 2023, the second installment in The Fix Yourself Empowerment Series, The Fix Your Anxiety Handbook, was published. It is also an award-winning publication. In December 2003, The Fix Your Depression Handbook was published. It is the third book in the series. The Fix Your Anger Handbook, the series’ fourth book, was published in May 2024.
Ready to begin your journey toward freedom from addiction? Visit faustruggiero.com to learn more about his "Fix Yourself Empowerment Series" and discover resources tailored to your recovery needs.
Sober Living Stories Podcast Host Jessica Stipanovic is a writer, podcast host, and founder of the Female Entrepreneur Organization. Join here:(1) Female Entrepreneur Organization | Facebook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi and welcome to another episode of the Sober
Living Stories podcast.
My next guest is Faust Ruggiero.
He's a psychologist who's beenin private practice for more
than 35 years.
In 2016, he began to develop abook series called the Fix your
Self-Empowerment Series and,with book five just hitting the
(00:21):
shelves what three weeks ago?
He's here today to talk abouthis practice as a clinician, his
experiences, his expertise inworking with recovering addicts,
alcoholics and all the otherareas that you have worked with.
Just give us your expertise,your experience, what you see
(00:41):
and what this book is about thatcan help the person who is
looking to overcome addiction.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Jessica, thanks so much for inviting me.
It's a pleasure to be here withyou.
You know, when you talk aboutaddiction, people almost always
go right to drugs or alcohol.
They tend to do that and weknow, particularly if you're
recovering, anyone's recovering.
You know there's your primaryaddiction and then there's all
the other ones that come alongwith it and then there's the
ones you substitute when you getoff your, when you're going to
(01:11):
recovery.
There's so many, you know, inthe book.
I put about 17, I think, with 17addictions in the book, and I
like to write the way I counsel.
If you're coming into my office, my approach is let's get all
the information that we needabout you.
Let's give you all theinformation you know about, in
this case, your addiction, andthen let's give you action steps
(01:32):
.
These are things you can do tochange it.
It's just like if you go into a12-step program, what those
steps are?
They're action steps.
That's what they really are.
Let's do these things, learnall of these things.
So you know, when I began tolearn about treating addicts, it
was really the 12-stepphilosophy that I learned and
that, even though I'm notrecovering, I follow this every
(01:53):
day.
This is one of my guideposts,so you know I wrote the book the
same way.
Let's put action steps at theend of all the chapters and then
at the end of the book.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
there's 10 chapters of the master plan, if you will,
to get yourself into recoveryand progress through it.
I had read an excerpt and Ilove the directness of it, how
it said you know what you put in, you're going to get out.
And I find that to be reallytrue because when people work
really hard at overcomingsomething, they tend to be
invested, so they're not goingto step out as quickly to have
to redo that process.
And you also talk about supporthow important that is.
(02:30):
And then family you know notjust the person but like how the
family handles it.
And those are such importantcomponents.
Could you just kind of breakthat down?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know when you talk aboutthe first part of it, that
commitment, how much you'regoing to put in.
You know, I always use theexample of of the person, let's
say, who was drinking or usingdrugs, and go to the first 12
step meeting and decides they'regoing to sit in the back of the
room and they're not going toget a sponsor and they're not
going to do any commitments.
And you know they're not reallygoing to work the program.
(02:59):
But they go to the meetings.
They may go to two or three aweek, that's great, but that's
how much you're going to get outof it.
You're really not getting intothe guts of the program.
So what do you want to do?
You want to select yourmeetings, you want to have a
home group and you want to takecommitments and have a sponsor
and work those steps.
That commitment is essential, Ithink, because you're right.
(03:23):
Now you're invested, now you'redoing the things you need to be
doing, and it's a program forlife.
That's the other part.
People have to understand theperson that comes in my office
and says I just want to getcured from this and I said, well
, you're in the wrong placebecause I don't have one.
It's a lifetime program, butthat's anything we do in our
lives.
It doesn't just apply toaddiction.
(03:43):
You want to make changes.
I think we have to think enoughof ourselves to say I like
getting up and working on meevery day.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, I like how you put that.
You have to think enough ofyourself too, because I really
think that initial step toovercome any and, like you had
said, you had 17 differentaddictions outlined in the book.
So true, there's so many in alldifferent areas of life.
But when you make that likeinternal decision that I do not
want to do it this way anymore,then you can come in and sit in
(04:12):
the front row or do the thingthat you have to do every day to
succeed.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, and you mentioned that family component.
If you exist in a family, in awork environment, lots of
friends, whatever, everyone isaffected by the addiction.
Not only are they going to bedealing with the results of what
you do and the effects, they'realso going to play their part
(04:37):
in the addiction.
Because survival in theaddiction means I get to do
things to not rock the boat orprotect my own interests.
And now I'm enabling and nowI'm, and sometimes it's for
profit.
I like to keep you addicted soI have control over things.
So you know putting that familycomponent in the book and I did
that in every chapter.
So the chapter was on gamblingor the chapter was on self-abuse
(05:01):
or whatever.
You know, I laid out the way Iwanted to do this in the book
was to talk about the addiction,give some statistics.
But then I wanted to go intothe prediction, the way it
progressed from use to abuse toaddiction.
Then I did another piece of thechapter, that's what happens to
a person in the grasp of theaddiction.
Then the following part of thechapter was the collateral
(05:21):
damage, which is the familysection.
Then I went into the steps foreach and every addiction.
Then I went into that wholeguidepost, that's 10 chapters,
the blueprint for getting sober.
And that is not just anindividual thing, it's a family
thing, it has to be.
You know we don't get out of it.
Nobody gets out of thisunscathed, it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Right, right, yeah, it's so true.
You know, I had heard someonesay once and I just thought it
was kind of true Like if youthink about dancing like and
you've been dancing like salsayour whole life with this person
, right, and then when you go inand get well or get better or
make a huge change, then you'regoing to start like dancing a
different dance and like they'reeither going to come along and
(06:05):
learn that new dance with you orthey're going to probably fall
away and the ones that come inare committed to learning that
new dance.
Everyone really profits fromthat.
Or, you know, the family systemchanges for the good, but it's
hard sometimes to to shift that.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Well, you know one of the chapters I do on that
blueprint for everybody tofollow is what I call just about
making decisions.
You know, people firmly believethat when they stop using the
drug of choice, the activity ofchoice, whatever it is, things
automatically get better.
And I just tell people, that'sonly the starting spot.
Now you're going to be into therepair work.
(06:42):
Now you're going to be intounderstanding all the dynamics
and all the connections involvedin that addiction.
You know so.
Now is when all the work begins.
Now is when you start to seeall the things.
Oh, my God, this is going to be.
You know this huge mountain infront of me, which, of course,
is why we say, one day at a time, let's do things nice and
(07:03):
simple, we keep it at your pace,but you keep on going forward.
That's the key.
Family will come along, or theywon't, that's up to them.
You will have decisions aboutwho gets in, who gets out.
That's why there's people,places and things.
You're going to make decisionsnow.
Where you were on autopilot, Iwas called addictive autopilot
before.
Now you're on consciousdecision-making in everything
(07:25):
you do, and the other part ofmaking a decision or setting a
boundary, whatever it may be, isnow you've got to have to
defend all those things.
Now you have to be accountable,and that's where you need help.
You have to have a network.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree Physicians, clinicians,whatever they may be, don't do
this, try to do this on your own, because you won't.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And for the listener.
You know, when you first hearlike it's, it's seems like
daunting, like oh, you have todo this and you have to do all
this work.
You know when you think aboutbeing in an active addiction and
then hitting the point whereyou make a decision, make a
change, and then you have allthis work ahead of you.
But the end result and theprocess itself is so revealing
(08:07):
to who you really are that itshould be like sure, it's
difficult, but it's so rewarding, it's just everything.
So I don't want listeners to bediscouraged, although there's
so much waiting on the otherside of that, it's absolutely
incredible.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
And you're not doing it alone.
I always try to make thatdistinction for my people.
When you were in the addiction,you were doing this alone and
that's what you chose to do.
You didn't open up to anyone.
Everything was a secret.
There were all the games youplayed, all the things you did
to maintain that addiction.
You did it all by yourself,Whether you believe it or not,
whether you understood it or not.
It was a lonely place to be.
(08:43):
But you're not using addictivemeasures to move forward.
Now we're opening up.
Now, if you're doing the rightthings, you're going to get a
sponsor.
That person is going to bethere for you.
You feel like you want to use.
You feel like things aregetting overwhelmed.
You can call that personanytime.
If you're going to meetings, youknow how this works.
You don't just walk in fiveminutes late into the meeting.
(09:04):
You get there 20 minutes aheadof time and you talk to people
and you exchange what's going on.
And if you're smart, you go toall different kinds of meetings.
So you have your speakermeetings, but then you have
discussion meetings and stepmeetings and big book meetings
and all those things.
So you do the right thing.
You go to all these things.
You let people in.
You get a counselor if you needone, one who understands
(09:25):
addiction, so you can startpiecing your life back together.
You let people in.
Addicts don't do that.
Addicts tend to want to pushpeople out.
It's just if you pull thepeople in you're no longer alone
and what looked like amonumental thing is a piece by
piece, little thing you do everyday and then you start building
(09:45):
little successes and as you dothose, you say I can do this, I
just have to keep doing it,that's all, and I keep my
network close.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, yeah, good points.
Absolutely, and I think thatthe relationships that you build
in that are authentic and theyare real.
You know, as opposed to maybewhat was happening before it is.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You know why?
Everyone, most of the peopleyou meet in the rooms they're
all trying to get better also.
So all of a sudden, you've comefrom a place where people
weren't trying to do that.
They were beating themselves upto a place where everyone is
showing all the love they can,all the support they can, all
with the United goal which is tostay sober.
(10:25):
When did you ever have that inyour life?
When you look at that, you say,well, that's there and I can
rely on that anytime I need it.
What a nice place to be.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, and what's great about 12 step, I think, is
it is a program of action, butthere's also a spiritual
component, so it's like acombination and and it's that
actionable steps that that cantake people through their every
day and and the cost of it is sogood because it's relatively
cost nothing.
If you have nothing, you givenothing, but so you know, it's
(10:57):
just, it's really, and there'snow, with online, people can
access it anywhere, even thoughin person is probably best.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Sure, you know you talk about the spiritual part
and the higher power and youknow, being a person of faith
myself, I understand that and Iteach that component and I have
it in the book a chapter calledPowerful Surrender.
People assume that when yousurrender it's a weakness.
But what you've done, whatyou're really surrendering, is
all the garbage.
You're taking all that stuffand you're surrendering.
(11:26):
I'm no longer going to be aslave to that.
I am going to surrender to oneentity, which is my higher power
.
You will define that as youdefine it.
For me it's God, but it may besomething else for someone else
and then you attach to that andthen you're able to work through
your higher power and turnthings over.
Instead of worries and pain,you learn how to turn things
(11:48):
over to the higher power,connect to a more powerful
energy source, if you will, andmove in that direction.
Again, another part of theprogram that really helps you in
the transition.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's true as well.
You know that surrender partmay be difficult for people
who've been going it alone,self-sufficient, independent,
kind of fearless out there, andthen they put all that down and
they're, like you know, supposedto give something over.
It's such a good flip of onceyou really can understand what
(12:22):
that means, you know, whenyou're kind of giving over
control to something beyondyourself and then you start to
live in that and once thecontact's been made, you start
to see it everywhere.
So it's really, it's really agift.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
It's hard for a lot of us to get humble and then say
I'm going to trust someone.
All of a sudden, this personwho I've been, where I keep
everything close, trust nobody,let nobody in and I'm the master
at least I believe.
At least I believe I'm themaster of my own destiny.
But what I am is I'm a prisonerof my own destiny.
All of a sudden I'm turningthat over and saying sure, you
(12:57):
can come into my life, I'm goingto let you have all this
private information and I'mgoing to trust you with that.
And that's a big step to take.
Again, I tell people you're notgoing in and unloading your
entire life at one time.
It's again a step by stepprocess.
You learn how to touch yourselfback and forth with that,
because you know if it's asponsor, you're going to trust
(13:18):
your sponsor.
But your sponsor is also in theprogram, so they have to trust
you, so that reciprocity isreally, really powerful once it
gets going.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, what do you think is you know from your
experience over the last 35 plusyears?
What do you think is thehardest to do in the beginning
couple months for people who arelooking to overcome something?
Is it just, you know, basicallylike white knuckling kind of
things, or is it getting backinto their daily life or
relationships?
What do you see as the mostdifficult part?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
The hardest part.
To me.
It's a twofold thing.
The first one is to make thedecision to say, okay, I'm not
doing well.
I have to stop telling myselfthat well, it'll be better, or
it's bad because that thinghappened.
It's not good because I'm notmaking good decisions or the
place in my life I'm at I can'tseem to get out of.
(14:08):
So my first decision is thatI'm going to get help.
The second part of that is tonow know where to go so you can
start the help process and Itell people, you know, if it's
an addiction, you have three orfour ways you can go.
You can go to a counselor, youcan go to a 12-step meeting, you
can go to your family doctor oryou can go online.
I provide in every chapter Iprovide the national numbers,
(14:30):
the helplines for people to goto with every addiction.
You have places to go.
You're going to make that firstinitial step.
You know for a lot of peoplethat the first step and actually
there's a fifth person you goto which is a friend.
You know for a lot of peoplethat the first step and actually
there's a fifth person you goto which is a friend.
You know my friend used todrink and now he or she hasn't
had anything in three years.
They went to that meeting.
(14:51):
Hey, can you help me out?
I'm starting this.
You just want to get someoneelse in the picture to help you
make the first step, which is toget in there and get things
started.
Everything goes from that point.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's true .
I think there's a lot of.
It's hard to ask for help ifyou have not for years and I
think that you know can delayyour recovery for years.
And so just that initial likego in and say, hey, I need some
help, and just watch whathappens.
You know, and I find that youknow if you're genuinely, if the
(15:24):
decision's been made, you'reshowing up, people will bend
over backwards to help you.
If you're helping yourself, ifyou're showing that interest and
they know you really want toget well and make a change,
they'll really step forward andhelp you.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And I think you've just touched on a very important
point why are you making thedecision?
You know I have people thatcome and they'll say well, I
need help for my drinking, forexample.
Why do you want to get sober?
Well, you know life, it hasn'tbeen good and I should do this.
Are you married?
Yes, how's the marriage?
Well, my spouse says they'regoing to leave if I don't get
help.
I said that's a great littlepush, but if you're doing it for
(16:01):
them, you know where I'm goingwith this.
It's not going anywhere becauseyou didn't say I need it.
You're saying if I don't dothis, you're going to leave.
Or you got in trouble with thelegal system and they've sent
you Somewhere along the line.
You have to be able to say I amnot doing.
Well, Look at my life.
(16:21):
My marriage isn't where itshould be.
Finances maybe that's beingcompromised or work or friends,
all those things.
Physically, I'm not feelinggood.
I'm looking at the decisionsI'm making and I'm really not
where I need to be.
I just don't feel good about mylife.
Now you're talking about areason to make a change.
My wife or my husband is goingto leave.
It's legitimate, but it doesn'tput you in a position to
(16:42):
finally get to the point whereyou say I am making mistakes,
it's not about them, it's aboutme.
I have to change because Ifirmly want this.
That's where the those peoplewho do that really increase
their odds of getting into andmaintaining sobriety.
Doing it for someone else.
You're going to do it.
You know what that's going todo.
It's going to createresentments.
(17:02):
I'm doing it, but I reallydon't want to be.
I could be doing that tonight.
Or you know it's.
It's not my problem, it's yours.
It's all that kind of stuff.
Make a decision for yourself.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
So what do you think is you know?
You hear people regardless ofsure it could be with alcohol,
but it could be with anythingLike I can get sober.
I can't stay that way.
So what's the staying powerpiece?
Can you speak to that?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's again maintaining your network and one
day at a time.
Don't get ahead of yourself.
I just have someone come in andwe're just starting an
addiction program.
She's been drinking for 13, 14years and she says how long will
this take?
I said I don't know.
She says five years from now.
I'll probably be okay.
I said I don't know.
(17:47):
She said well, you should knowall these and I said no, I
should not.
What I can tell you is what youhave to do today.
If you keep doing that, it'sonly about today.
It's the place you're living.
Sustained sobriety is not adestination for you.
When you get there, and maybeyou get your 10-year chip or
whatever, fine, you got there.
(18:08):
Now you can look back.
It's a looking back, but you'reonly sober today and I just
keep people focused on what youhave to do today.
It's like working out.
If you say, geez, I'm 50 poundsoverweight, I can't lift
anything heavy and I can't walkfor 10 minutes, let alone run,
I'm not going to tell you to goin and grab this program and run
(18:30):
with it.
I'm going to say go very slow,little things, one day at a time
.
Don't set goals on what youhave to look like.
Just go do the program the wayyou're supposed to and
everything else will take careof itself.
That's what I tell people withthis program.
And the other thing is try toenjoy the fact that you're
working on yourself.
It's not a chore, you're notbeating yourself up.
You were beating yourself up.
(18:52):
Enjoy it.
Be able to say you know whatI'm going to get.
This, I love it, people aroundme are helping.
I'm opening up, I'm feelinggood about it.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Be able to do that.
Yeah, yeah, wow, so let me.
Let me go somewhere else.
I'd love to hear your opinionon this.
You know so to me.
You know there's a differencebetween a true alcoholic and
somebody who wants who's sober,curious, or wants to, to live
alcohol free, but they didn'treally have an you know a real
problem yet, or you know it'snot working for them.
So how, how is that approachdifferent?
I know that one seems to belike a life-saving mission and
(19:28):
the other seems to be alifestyle change, and so, seeing
as you've been doing this forquite a long time, how do you
handle that differently whenpeople come to you, or do they
not come to you for the one, butyou see more of the other?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
It's about 50-50, so to speak, the ones that you know
.
My life's falling apart.
I'm losing everything I knowI'm addicted.
I'm doing this from morning toevening.
That's easy easy to diagnose.
The other ones don't presentthat way.
They'll present with myrelationship really stinks or
I'm depressed a lot or anxious alot.
And then, as I start asking thequestions, I'm inevitably just
(20:04):
because of training and my ownexposure to addicts.
I always say any substances inyour life and be honest with me,
let's talk about this.
And then they'll say well, youknow, they won't tell me that
they have a problem with it.
They'll tell me that becauseother things are happening.
Maybe they drank a little more,or now they're smoking pot and
they got their medical card, butthey also buy some and they're
(20:28):
supplementing their prescription.
Or the gambling.
Well, I only do it once in awhile.
But yeah, how are your finances?
Well, so when we go in and westart doing history and we start
really getting all the factstogether, that's when all this
problematic behavior comes out.
Sometimes I find addictionshidden there, sometimes I find
the movement toward thatprogression where it's going to
(20:51):
take hold.
And then the other thing, ofcourse, is family history.
Do we have any of that in thefamily, any substance abuse,
other addictions, mental healthissues and I go there.
Now we start unlocking doorafter door and this stuff comes
out.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, yeah, because I think when you get further and
they say it's not really aboutthe drink or the substance, or
the food, or the sugar or thegambling, it's about what the
behaviors that that behaviorbrings, how it makes you feel
you're guilty, you're hiding,you're dishonest, you're
shameful, which kind of colorsyour personality and how you
handle people in the world.
(21:27):
Right, and so I could see it.
Yeah, that that when you saidit presents differently,
absolutely I could see that.
So they both, they both haveboth of those different aspects
of whether it's alcohol freeliving or, you know, bottom rock
, bottom alcoholism have anability to positively get better
(21:47):
.
Yeah, you know, and I try tosay we always want to educate
people.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
You know, people have a tendency to misinterpret
particularly drugs which arelegal, like alcohol and
marijuana, and those they'relegal or over the counter
amphetamines and caffeine, well,they're not doing any damage to
me.
And I say example someone comesin and says I have so much
anxiety now, I always gophysical first.
(22:11):
Okay, let's see what you'redoing.
Are you sleeping well?
Well, not so good.
Caffeine how much caffeine aday?
Well, I have three or four cupsof coffee.
You make it black and strong,you know.
I ask any energy drinks?
How much sugar?
And then, okay, by the end ofthe night you're still.
Are you tired when you go tobed?
Well, I am, but down I hit thebed and my eyes are wide open.
I said, yeah, that a caffeinepresents that way, uh, those.
(22:33):
So you know it's not because adrug is legal, does it does not
mean it's okay.
We've legalized pot now andeveryone says you know the old
story, you can't get addicted topot.
Well, you certainly can,absolutely and long range, that
there is a marijuana toxicitythat builds in the brain and
it's almost like an alcoholic'swet brain after a while.
(22:54):
That's very hard to reverse,you know.
So you know, I try to let themknow that you know these, these
addictions are compulsions wherethe brain is now becoming
overly stimulated and you cannotstop.
There's a neurologicalcomponent we have to look at
with all of this and it crossesall the addictions.
The one thing all addictionshave is that it stimulates the
(23:18):
brain and the tolerancecontinues to build in all
addictions.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Wow so just because a drug is legal doesn't mean it's
okay yeah.
No means, and that would belike caffeine, sugar, marijuana
today.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Alcohol, alcohol.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I could see that.
So, yeah, that's really andit's just everywhere and there's
just, yeah, everyone moves sofast and we consume, so and you
know, there's just such a drivefor more.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
No, it's interesting when you look at the
legalization of marijuana,everyone says well, we legalized
it because it has medicinal.
No, we didn't legalize it forthat.
We like our drugs.
We are a drug culture.
We like the stimulation and theexcitement it produces tax
dollars.
Now it's a big money crop, justlike alcohol.
(24:08):
That's why it's legal.
You can't stop it from beingproduced, so the government
cashes in.
We like our euphoria, so wepush it.
And now you'll notice it's notjust legalized for medicinal
purposes.
That was only step one.
Now it will be legalized formedicinal purposes.
That was only step one.
Now it will be legalized forrecreation.
Across the country.
We will have a whole new brandof addiction, of addicts.
(24:30):
Now we will have marijuanaaddicts yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And if you look, yeah , and I think about the driving,
you know, drinking and drivingbad, smoking and driving not
good.
And so if you look in the past,over the years, I saw, like in
the past say 20 years, just Isaw, like in the past say 20
years, just like this influx ofthe drugs change.
Okay, you had the opioidepidemic, before that crack
cocaine, I don't know.
Like before that it wassomething else.
So I look ahead and I think ofmarijuana as being like this,
(24:57):
even though it's like there's adispensary on every corner.
I don't know where you're from.
I'm in Florida and I kind ofsee them crop up and I'm like,
wow, okay, it's just like everycorner.
And when I was in Colorado itwas legal at that time.
I think it was legal when I wasthere, but not here.
I don't even know if it is hereor not, but you know, how can
something be so available formedicinal purposes and not be
(25:20):
abused or overused in otherareas?
You know, it's just like anydrug.
I don't see how it's going tobe good.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
We're manufactured to deal with intense, chronic pain
.
Well, look where the opiateepidemic went.
Marijuana will be the samething.
It's not going to be the harddrug like an opiate, but you
know the opiate you might have,depending on the person.
You might take it 10 times aday or you might take it two or
three times a day and getaddicted.
Marijuana it's not just you know, you put it in your pipe and
(25:47):
smoke it anymore.
The roots to get it into yourbody, gummies and other oral
roots too.
They have their pens with themand you know people don't know
because the smells are alldisguised.
So now you know you walk outand you take a hit off your pen
and it goes on all day long andpeople will say and you know
where I'm going, I think I'mgoing to go with this.
(26:08):
People will say I'm doing thatbecause I get anxious.
No, you're doing that becauseyou're addicted, because when
you stop it goes down and you'vegot to bring the drug back up
in your body.
So now, what used to besomething that helped you with
your anxiety now creates youranxiety and you use more of it.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
That's the addictive flow, that is the textbook
addictive flow, right it?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
absolutely is.
So that's what we'll expectnext.
So I always say we're gearingup for the next new addicts that
will come in there and theywill be younger because of the
pot.
They will start smoking potmuch, much younger.
It'll be legalized, parentswill be smoking.
It'll be around the house.
There's the vape pen over thereand the kid walks over and does
(26:55):
this, holds his breath andwalks out of the room and we
have a whole new clientele andit's going to be something that
we have never seen before.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, I remember about 10 or 15 years ago or
maybe 10, I don't know when thepills were big and I remember
thinking, gosh, I've never seenso many young people like, say,
20, 30, so much pain that theyneeded to.
You know, and yeah, and justpeople, that college kids just
(27:24):
started stealing things and youknow, just unexpected, like
regular, it's just took over somany people's lives, you know.
So, yeah, the marijuana thing,it's just up and coming and it's
bigger and bigger and it'severywhere.
So we'll just see where thisplays out.
So two you talked earlier aboutwe were touching on like
(27:45):
addiction transfers.
It's like you put down one andthen maybe you stop drinking and
then you pick up food or youknow I'm going to have, I can't
drink, so I'll have dessert, andthen it turns into something
like bigger and the samebehaviors start to be like, so
like where everything getssmaller.
So what are some of the mostcommon like addiction transfers
(28:05):
that you see in your practice?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Well, food is a big one.
That's huge.
I see a lot of that.
I see gambling.
You know they'll go to that.
One drug to the other.
Alcohol Okay, maybe now I'mdabbling in pills just a little
bit.
Or now I've started to smokeinstead of a pot.
I see a lot of that going on.
Exercise is another one, youknow.
Good, now I'm going to getmyself healthy.
(28:28):
I'm off the drug or the alcohol.
I'm going to get myself healthy.
Now I'm going to the gym sevendays a week.
I'm spending two hours there.
Now I, along with that, I'mstarting to look good.
So now I'm going to change mydiet and all the stuff is going
out.
I'm just going to put tons ofprotein in and I'm not.
The key is that once the braingets used to the acceleration
(28:53):
and the high and all thateuphoria, it seeks it out.
What we're really doing withaddicts if we treat them
properly is to learn how to takethat euphoria and drop it down
a bit On a scale of 1 to 10, soto speak.
The brain now wants an 8.
But the brain will be just ashappy at a 2, which is fine.
We want to get back to simplepleasures.
(29:15):
Addicts have a difficult timedoing something very simple,
simple pleasure without theirdrug of choice with them.
So we want to.
The training is to get thatbrain to slow down, not seek out
all this huge, this large, thisoverabundance of euphoria it
does not need, Because if wedon't do that, then the brain
(29:36):
says, okay, I can't drink, or Ican't, what else can I do?
So then we do all therationalization.
Well, I was doing that, thatwas terrible, I'll just do this
now, or this is healthy for menow, I'll just do that.
And now we have the same persontaking their addiction,
transferring it to somethingthey have now rationalized and
(29:56):
essentially they're activeaddicts.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yet yeah, yeah.
So it's extreme and so you wantto try to get to this middle
road.
And in that middle road I thinkwhat happens is, you know, at
first it's uncomfortable becauseit's not familiar to a lot of
people who've been living likeaddicted, familiar to a lot of
people who've been livingaddicted.
But when you get there and youexperience the calm, the peace,
(30:18):
the serenity, the simplicitybecause it's a lot of work to
maintain an addiction, no matterwhat it is, whether you're
hiding it or eating all proteinor going to the gym or whatever
it is so when you live in thatmiddle road it's a really great
place to be.
But it doesn't seem so invitingto someone who's been living at
(30:39):
extremes, you know, and I knowthat was true for me.
But really now the goal for meis like to get to that middle of
the road and to stay there moreoften, because that's where you
can really enjoy your life andlike see people and like eye to
eye and present tense and howtime becomes important and more
meaningful.
So there's real cause.
I remember years and years agomy main goal of my life was to
(31:03):
just like calm my mind down andto just not have it race and to
just be calm.
And you know, somewhere alongthe line in the busyness, it
comes back and it's like oh no,no, how do I get back there?
And you get back there byliving a life in the middle, I
think, if you're an addict.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Well, you do.
I try to help people understandthat our brains learn and
learning is just repetition.
It's repetition, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
So it's not this ingrained like you can't be that
because you're that.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
No, the brain it's a retraining.
Yes, talk about that a little,that's really that's really
interesting to me and, I bet, tolisteners, and hopeful it is.
You know, I tell people.
Think about it this way.
You didn't just.
You know, you're a kid and youwere born an addict and start
doing all these things Somewherealong the line.
You train your brain to acceptthis higher level of
(31:56):
acceleration, this action.
So that should tell you thatthe brain can learn.
Now, if the brain can learnthat, why can't the brain learn
to slow down and appreciatethings at a more simple level?
What do you have to do is giveit the opportunity to learn.
Yeah, that's so good.
I have a friend that lives inthe city and when I would visit
(32:19):
him it would be sirens and itwould be action, and let's go to
this club and people everywhere.
And you know, we get back tohis apartment.
I would say, let me just calmdown.
He'd come to my house and whenit was time to go to bed I had
to put a television in his room.
This was way back in the 80s.
I had to put a television inhis room just for noise, because
if he didn't hear the sirensand the yelling and the
(32:40):
screaming he couldn't go tosleep.
Training program we get intorecovery.
One of the things we're doingis retraining our brain to
understand and be able to enjoysimple pleasures.
You know, it's sort of likeyou're going to the fair and you
can enjoy walking around andhaving a nice time and talking
(33:00):
to people, versus the one that'sgot to get on that roller
coaster and go frontwards andbackwards and upside down.
And if they didn't get on theroller coaster, how was your
evening?
It was okay.
We just kind of walked aroundand did nothing.
The person says it was reallyenjoyable.
I saw so-and-so.
You know, we grabbed somethingto eat.
It was nice and calm.
(33:20):
We had a wonderful time, wenthome and it was nice and easy.
Yeah so to do that.
Not that you have to do it allthe time.
You know nothing wrong withriding the roller coaster, but
you shouldn't need to do it.
That's the key.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
You shouldn't need to do it Right, right, and so
before you talked about you,address the physical with your
clients first.
So what do you see as thephysical component?
That must be such a gift toyour system to slow it down and
to not have to live in theextremes.
(33:53):
You're talking about healthlike life, longevity, all of
those things Like.
Doesn't that affect your healthin a really positive way when
you kind of take it down?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Absolutely.
The first part of physical Ithink people understand is that
there is no such thing as anaddiction.
That is only psychological ormental.
We're physical organisms.
We feel euphoria in our brain.
Some people can say we're goingto go out tonight and I'm going
to have two glasses of wine.
(34:24):
I already know that That'll bemy limit and I'm fine.
Never think about that for therest of the week.
The next person goes out and hasone.
And you know the old story if Ihave one, I'm going to have a
hundred.
The next person goes out andhas one.
You know the ulcer If I haveone, I'm going to have 100.
So you know.
So they can't have the onebecause their brain is not set
up that way.
That one will trigger theaddictive response in the brain
(34:46):
and they'll want to continue tosupplement that.
So it's physical.
You've got to understand thatand you're not going to think
your way out of it.
You know there's a plan.
Aa has a plan.
It does address the physical.
It doesn't do it directly, buteverything it does in that slow
down teach your brain people,places and things, all that's
(35:07):
designed to slow neurology down.
It wasn't the Bill W's intent.
However, when you break it downin terms of what happened.
That's what's going on on thephysical level and we want
people to understand that.
That's why you say I think yousaid it was alcohol that you
were into If you and I went outfor the evening, I could have
one, two drinks and I'd be OK Ifyou had the one.
We don't know what's happeningnow, maybe you were lucky.
(35:28):
Maybe you're fortunate.
All the sponsors said help me,I just screwed up.
Or it's a home, and on the wayhome you stop at the liquor
store and purchase a bottle.
We don't know what's going tohappen with you.
That's the neurology that youhave that you're born with, it
wasn't.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Right, yeah, yeah, there's so much good stuff.
I really I'm enjoying thisconversation.
There's so much truth toeverything you're saying, yeah.
So what would you say to peoplewho are listening?
Your last book.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Jessica, when I started doing this I wanted to
help people empower themselvesfrom the inside that's my way of
doing things and get to a pointof balance.
We're physical, we'reintellectual, we're emotional,
we're spiritual.
Again, if you look at the12-step program, it hits all
four of those.
We want to get those in balance, not at a high level anywhere.
I always say on a scale of 1 to10, it could be a 2 or a 10.
(36:20):
It's irrelevant, so they're inbalance.
So I wanted to help peoplelearn to do that, get their
emotions down, get more clarityof thought, get their body in
physical shape so it helps them,it's not a hindrance and
hopefully to connect to yourspirituality.
That was the first book.
The pandemic hit and we lookedand I said all right, look at
(36:41):
the anxiety level here.
So second book was the Fix yourAnxiety Handbook.
Following that, we sawdepression coming at the end of
the pandemic.
So we went with depression.
Well, we saw in the countrywhat we just the presidential
election just personified theanger that we're experiencing.
So that was the fourth book.
But I always had this in my headthat I needed to do one on
(37:01):
addiction.
I've worked so much withaddiction and so much at so many
levels.
So the fifth book was the Fixyour Addiction Handbook.
Interestingly, the 12-stepprograms in my area of course a
lot of people I know in the areaI've treated came back and said
I bought the book.
Do you mind if I take this tomy meeting?
Please do.
And now the 12-steppers in myarea are starting to use this as
(37:24):
supplemental reading, which isreally nice to hear.
The goal of that book is reallyto help people understand that
this is something that if you'rewilling to work with there are
ways to do that.
There's an abundance oftreatment out there if you're
willing to do it.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, and you know, just in talking to you I could
tell that I mean well, becauseyou have been in this for so
many years and worked with somany people.
If someone is working in12-step and wants to supplement
with this if they're not goingto a therapist, if they're not
able to go to a therapistbecause of expenses or this or
that, like purchase this series,you know, walk through it.
(38:05):
It's not like it was written.
You know, when I was readingthe excerpts I was so it really
resonated with me.
It spoke to me because of thedirectness of it and the actions
.
And I love the family component, like we had talked about
earlier, because everyone'sliving in that and it helps them
kind of navigate through that.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
If any advice I give to people is don't play with
recovery.
There is no such thing as yourversion of recovery.
Everyone likes to think thatway.
Recovery in my, the way I teachit and the way I counsel is an
all or nothing proposition.
You know it's just.
You can't.
You can't get your defenses anddeny this and rationalize that
(38:43):
and it doesn't work.
You've got to be brutallyhonest with yourself and the
people that are helping you.
If you're willing to say, okay,it's done.
I am putting myself into this,yes, I know what I'm signing up
for.
It's going to get hard.
However, I'm not alone andevery step of the way, as hard
as it gets, there's going to bethat person there who is going
(39:04):
to help me.
You don't have to have acounselor right away.
There are support groupseverywhere for all the
addictions.
They're online Exactly.
There are 12-step programs.
There are free ways to do thisand people just waiting to wrap
their arms around you but yougot to give them the chance.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's right.
That's right.
Well, it was such a pleasurehaving you on today.
So much good information.
Where can people buy the bookand where can they find you
during the week?
Speaker 2 (39:32):
The best place for both of that is my website.
It's my name fosteragerocom and, as you said, excerpts from the
books are there.
You can see what they're like.
Everything about the booksmyself, the appearances, all
those things, they're all thereand there's a contact link and I
do get back to people if theycontact.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for beinghere and sharing all of that
information to listeners.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
It has been a pleasure Thanks.
Hi and welcome to another episode of the Sober
Living Stories podcast.
My next guest is Faust Ruggiero.
He's a psychologist who's beenin private practice for more
than 35 years.
In 2016, he began to develop abook series called the Fix your
Self-Empowerment Series and,with book five just hitting the
(00:21):
shelves what three weeks ago?
He's here today to talk abouthis practice as a clinician, his
experiences, his expertise inworking with recovering addicts,
alcoholics and all the otherareas that you have worked with.
Just give us your expertise,your experience, what you see
(00:41):
and what this book is about thatcan help the person who is
looking to overcome addiction.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Jessica, thanks so much for inviting me.
It's a pleasure to be here withyou.
You know, when you talk aboutaddiction, people almost always
go right to drugs or alcohol.
They tend to do that and weknow, particularly if you're
recovering, anyone's recovering.
You know there's your primaryaddiction and then there's all
the other ones that come alongwith it and then there's the
ones you substitute when you getoff your, when you're going to
(01:11):
recovery.
There's so many, you know, inthe book.
I put about 17, I think, with 17addictions in the book, and I
like to write the way I counsel.
If you're coming into my office, my approach is let's get all
the information that we needabout you.
Let's give you all theinformation you know about, in
this case, your addiction, andthen let's give you action steps
(01:32):
.
These are things you can do tochange it.
It's just like if you go into a12-step program, what those
steps are?
They're action steps.
That's what they really are.
Let's do these things, learnall of these things.
So you know, when I began tolearn about treating addicts, it
was really the 12-stepphilosophy that I learned and
that, even though I'm notrecovering, I follow this every
(01:53):
day.
This is one of my guideposts,so you know I wrote the book the
same way.
Let's put action steps at theend of all the chapters and then
at the end of the book.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
there's 10 chapters of the master plan, if you will,
to get yourself into recoveryand progress through it.
I had read an excerpt and Ilove the directness of it, how
it said you know what you put in, you're going to get out.
And I find that to be reallytrue because when people work
really hard at overcomingsomething, they tend to be
invested, so they're not goingto step out as quickly to have
to redo that process.
And you also talk about supporthow important that is.
(02:30):
And then family you know notjust the person but like how the
family handles it.
And those are such importantcomponents.
Could you just kind of breakthat down?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know when you talk aboutthe first part of it, that
commitment, how much you'regoing to put in.
You know, I always use theexample of of the person, let's
say, who was drinking or usingdrugs, and go to the first 12
step meeting and decides they'regoing to sit in the back of the
room and they're not going toget a sponsor and they're not
going to do any commitments.
And you know they're not reallygoing to work the program.
(02:59):
But they go to the meetings.
They may go to two or three aweek, that's great, but that's
how much you're going to get outof it.
You're really not getting intothe guts of the program.
So what do you want to do?
You want to select yourmeetings, you want to have a
home group and you want to takecommitments and have a sponsor
and work those steps.
That commitment is essential, Ithink, because you're right.
(03:23):
Now you're invested, now you'redoing the things you need to be
doing, and it's a program forlife.
That's the other part.
People have to understand theperson that comes in my office
and says I just want to getcured from this and I said, well
, you're in the wrong placebecause I don't have one.
It's a lifetime program, butthat's anything we do in our
lives.
It doesn't just apply toaddiction.
(03:43):
You want to make changes.
I think we have to think enoughof ourselves to say I like
getting up and working on meevery day.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, I like how you put that.
You have to think enough ofyourself too, because I really
think that initial step toovercome any and, like you had
said, you had 17 differentaddictions outlined in the book.
So true, there's so many in alldifferent areas of life.
But when you make that likeinternal decision that I do not
want to do it this way anymore,then you can come in and sit in
(04:12):
the front row or do the thingthat you have to do every day to
succeed.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, and you mentioned that family component.
If you exist in a family, in awork environment, lots of
friends, whatever, everyone isaffected by the addiction.
Not only are they going to bedealing with the results of what
you do and the effects, they'realso going to play their part
(04:37):
in the addiction.
Because survival in theaddiction means I get to do
things to not rock the boat orprotect my own interests.
And now I'm enabling and nowI'm, and sometimes it's for
profit.
I like to keep you addicted soI have control over things.
So you know putting that familycomponent in the book and I did
that in every chapter.
So the chapter was on gamblingor the chapter was on self-abuse
(05:01):
or whatever.
You know, I laid out the way Iwanted to do this in the book
was to talk about the addiction,give some statistics.
But then I wanted to go intothe prediction, the way it
progressed from use to abuse toaddiction.
Then I did another piece of thechapter, that's what happens to
a person in the grasp of theaddiction.
Then the following part of thechapter was the collateral
(05:21):
damage, which is the familysection.
Then I went into the steps foreach and every addiction.
Then I went into that wholeguidepost, that's 10 chapters,
the blueprint for getting sober.
And that is not just anindividual thing, it's a family
thing, it has to be.
You know we don't get out of it.
Nobody gets out of thisunscathed, it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Right, right, yeah, it's so true.
You know, I had heard someonesay once and I just thought it
was kind of true Like if youthink about dancing like and
you've been dancing like salsayour whole life with this person
, right, and then when you go inand get well or get better or
make a huge change, then you'regoing to start like dancing a
different dance and like they'reeither going to come along and
(06:05):
learn that new dance with you orthey're going to probably fall
away and the ones that come inare committed to learning that
new dance.
Everyone really profits fromthat.
Or, you know, the family systemchanges for the good, but it's
hard sometimes to to shift that.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Well, you know one of the chapters I do on that
blueprint for everybody tofollow is what I call just about
making decisions.
You know, people firmly believethat when they stop using the
drug of choice, the activity ofchoice, whatever it is, things
automatically get better.
And I just tell people, that'sonly the starting spot.
Now you're going to be into therepair work.
(06:42):
Now you're going to be intounderstanding all the dynamics
and all the connections involvedin that addiction.
You know so.
Now is when all the work begins.
Now is when you start to seeall the things.
Oh, my God, this is going to be.
You know this huge mountain infront of me, which, of course,
is why we say, one day at a time, let's do things nice and
(07:03):
simple, we keep it at your pace,but you keep on going forward.
That's the key.
Family will come along, or theywon't, that's up to them.
You will have decisions aboutwho gets in, who gets out.
That's why there's people,places and things.
You're going to make decisionsnow.
Where you were on autopilot, Iwas called addictive autopilot
before.
Now you're on consciousdecision-making in everything
(07:25):
you do, and the other part ofmaking a decision or setting a
boundary, whatever it may be, isnow you've got to have to
defend all those things.
Now you have to be accountable,and that's where you need help.
You have to have a network.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree Physicians, clinicians,whatever they may be, don't do
this, try to do this on your own, because you won't.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And for the listener.
You know, when you first hearlike it's, it's seems like
daunting, like oh, you have todo this and you have to do all
this work.
You know when you think aboutbeing in an active addiction and
then hitting the point whereyou make a decision, make a
change, and then you have allthis work ahead of you.
But the end result and theprocess itself is so revealing
(08:07):
to who you really are that itshould be like sure, it's
difficult, but it's so rewarding, it's just everything.
So I don't want listeners to bediscouraged, although there's
so much waiting on the otherside of that, it's absolutely
incredible.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
And you're not doing it alone.
I always try to make thatdistinction for my people.
When you were in the addiction,you were doing this alone and
that's what you chose to do.
You didn't open up to anyone.
Everything was a secret.
There were all the games youplayed, all the things you did
to maintain that addiction.
You did it all by yourself,Whether you believe it or not,
whether you understood it or not.
It was a lonely place to be.
(08:43):
But you're not using addictivemeasures to move forward.
Now we're opening up.
Now, if you're doing the rightthings, you're going to get a
sponsor.
That person is going to bethere for you.
You feel like you want to use.
You feel like things aregetting overwhelmed.
You can call that personanytime.
If you're going to meetings, youknow how this works.
You don't just walk in fiveminutes late into the meeting.
(09:04):
You get there 20 minutes aheadof time and you talk to people
and you exchange what's going on.
And if you're smart, you go toall different kinds of meetings.
So you have your speakermeetings, but then you have
discussion meetings and stepmeetings and big book meetings
and all those things.
So you do the right thing.
You go to all these things.
You let people in.
You get a counselor if you needone, one who understands
(09:25):
addiction, so you can startpiecing your life back together.
You let people in.
Addicts don't do that.
Addicts tend to want to pushpeople out.
It's just if you pull thepeople in you're no longer alone
and what looked like amonumental thing is a piece by
piece, little thing you do everyday and then you start building
(09:45):
little successes and as you dothose, you say I can do this, I
just have to keep doing it,that's all, and I keep my
network close.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, yeah, good points.
Absolutely, and I think thatthe relationships that you build
in that are authentic and theyare real.
You know, as opposed to maybewhat was happening before it is.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You know why?
Everyone, most of the peopleyou meet in the rooms they're
all trying to get better also.
So all of a sudden, you've comefrom a place where people
weren't trying to do that.
They were beating themselves upto a place where everyone is
showing all the love they can,all the support they can, all
with the United goal which is tostay sober.
(10:25):
When did you ever have that inyour life?
When you look at that, you say,well, that's there and I can
rely on that anytime I need it.
What a nice place to be.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, and what's great about 12 step, I think, is
it is a program of action, butthere's also a spiritual
component, so it's like acombination and and it's that
actionable steps that that cantake people through their every
day and and the cost of it is sogood because it's relatively
cost nothing.
If you have nothing, you givenothing, but so you know, it's
(10:57):
just, it's really, and there'snow, with online, people can
access it anywhere, even thoughin person is probably best.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Sure, you know you talk about the spiritual part
and the higher power and youknow, being a person of faith
myself, I understand that and Iteach that component and I have
it in the book a chapter calledPowerful Surrender.
People assume that when yousurrender it's a weakness.
But what you've done, whatyou're really surrendering, is
all the garbage.
You're taking all that stuffand you're surrendering.
(11:26):
I'm no longer going to be aslave to that.
I am going to surrender to oneentity, which is my higher power
.
You will define that as youdefine it.
For me it's God, but it may besomething else for someone else
and then you attach to that andthen you're able to work through
your higher power and turnthings over.
Instead of worries and pain,you learn how to turn things
(11:48):
over to the higher power,connect to a more powerful
energy source, if you will, andmove in that direction.
Again, another part of theprogram that really helps you in
the transition.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's true as well.
You know that surrender partmay be difficult for people
who've been going it alone,self-sufficient, independent,
kind of fearless out there, andthen they put all that down and
they're, like you know, supposedto give something over.
It's such a good flip of onceyou really can understand what
(12:22):
that means, you know, whenyou're kind of giving over
control to something beyondyourself and then you start to
live in that and once thecontact's been made, you start
to see it everywhere.
So it's really, it's really agift.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
It's hard for a lot of us to get humble and then say
I'm going to trust someone.
All of a sudden, this personwho I've been, where I keep
everything close, trust nobody,let nobody in and I'm the master
at least I believe.
At least I believe I'm themaster of my own destiny.
But what I am is I'm a prisonerof my own destiny.
All of a sudden I'm turningthat over and saying sure, you
(12:57):
can come into my life, I'm goingto let you have all this
private information and I'mgoing to trust you with that.
And that's a big step to take.
Again, I tell people you're notgoing in and unloading your
entire life at one time.
It's again a step by stepprocess.
You learn how to touch yourselfback and forth with that,
because you know if it's asponsor, you're going to trust
(13:18):
your sponsor.
But your sponsor is also in theprogram, so they have to trust
you, so that reciprocity isreally, really powerful once it
gets going.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, what do you think is you know from your
experience over the last 35 plusyears?
What do you think is thehardest to do in the beginning
couple months for people who arelooking to overcome something?
Is it just, you know, basicallylike white knuckling kind of
things, or is it getting backinto their daily life or
relationships?
What do you see as the mostdifficult part?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
The hardest part.
To me.
It's a twofold thing.
The first one is to make thedecision to say, okay, I'm not
doing well.
I have to stop telling myselfthat well, it'll be better, or
it's bad because that thinghappened.
It's not good because I'm notmaking good decisions or the
place in my life I'm at I can'tseem to get out of.
(14:08):
So my first decision is thatI'm going to get help.
The second part of that is tonow know where to go so you can
start the help process and Itell people, you know, if it's
an addiction, you have three orfour ways you can go.
You can go to a counselor, youcan go to a 12-step meeting, you
can go to your family doctor oryou can go online.
I provide in every chapter Iprovide the national numbers,
(14:30):
the helplines for people to goto with every addiction.
You have places to go.
You're going to make that firstinitial step.
You know for a lot of peoplethat the first step and actually
there's a fifth person you goto which is a friend.
You know for a lot of peoplethat the first step and actually
there's a fifth person you goto which is a friend.
You know my friend used todrink and now he or she hasn't
had anything in three years.
They went to that meeting.
(14:51):
Hey, can you help me out?
I'm starting this.
You just want to get someoneelse in the picture to help you
make the first step, which is toget in there and get things
started.
Everything goes from that point.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's true .
I think there's a lot of.
It's hard to ask for help ifyou have not for years and I
think that you know can delayyour recovery for years.
And so just that initial likego in and say, hey, I need some
help, and just watch whathappens.
You know, and I find that youknow if you're genuinely, if the
(15:24):
decision's been made, you'reshowing up, people will bend
over backwards to help you.
If you're helping yourself, ifyou're showing that interest and
they know you really want toget well and make a change,
they'll really step forward andhelp you.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And I think you've just touched on a very important
point why are you making thedecision?
You know I have people thatcome and they'll say well, I
need help for my drinking, forexample.
Why do you want to get sober?
Well, you know life, it hasn'tbeen good and I should do this.
Are you married?
Yes, how's the marriage?
Well, my spouse says they'regoing to leave if I don't get
help.
I said that's a great littlepush, but if you're doing it for
(16:01):
them, you know where I'm goingwith this.
It's not going anywhere becauseyou didn't say I need it.
You're saying if I don't dothis, you're going to leave.
Or you got in trouble with thelegal system and they've sent
you Somewhere along the line.
You have to be able to say I amnot doing.
Well, Look at my life.
(16:21):
My marriage isn't where itshould be.
Finances maybe that's beingcompromised or work or friends,
all those things.
Physically, I'm not feelinggood.
I'm looking at the decisionsI'm making and I'm really not
where I need to be.
I just don't feel good about mylife.
Now you're talking about areason to make a change.
My wife or my husband is goingto leave.
It's legitimate, but it doesn'tput you in a position to
(16:42):
finally get to the point whereyou say I am making mistakes,
it's not about them, it's aboutme.
I have to change because Ifirmly want this.
That's where the those peoplewho do that really increase
their odds of getting into andmaintaining sobriety.
Doing it for someone else.
You're going to do it.
You know what that's going todo.
It's going to createresentments.
(17:02):
I'm doing it, but I reallydon't want to be.
I could be doing that tonight.
Or you know it's.
It's not my problem, it's yours.
It's all that kind of stuff.
Make a decision for yourself.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
So what do you think is you know?
You hear people regardless ofsure it could be with alcohol,
but it could be with anythingLike I can get sober.
I can't stay that way.
So what's the staying powerpiece?
Can you speak to that?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's again maintaining your network and one
day at a time.
Don't get ahead of yourself.
I just have someone come in andwe're just starting an
addiction program.
She's been drinking for 13, 14years and she says how long will
this take?
I said I don't know.
She says five years from now.
I'll probably be okay.
I said I don't know.
(17:47):
She said well, you should knowall these and I said no, I
should not.
What I can tell you is what youhave to do today.
If you keep doing that, it'sonly about today.
It's the place you're living.
Sustained sobriety is not adestination for you.
When you get there, and maybeyou get your 10-year chip or
whatever, fine, you got there.
(18:08):
Now you can look back.
It's a looking back, but you'reonly sober today and I just
keep people focused on what youhave to do today.
It's like working out.
If you say, geez, I'm 50 poundsoverweight, I can't lift
anything heavy and I can't walkfor 10 minutes, let alone run,
I'm not going to tell you to goin and grab this program and run
(18:30):
with it.
I'm going to say go very slow,little things, one day at a time
.
Don't set goals on what youhave to look like.
Just go do the program the wayyou're supposed to and
everything else will take careof itself.
That's what I tell people withthis program.
And the other thing is try toenjoy the fact that you're
working on yourself.
It's not a chore, you're notbeating yourself up.
You were beating yourself up.
(18:52):
Enjoy it.
Be able to say you know whatI'm going to get.
This, I love it, people aroundme are helping.
I'm opening up, I'm feelinggood about it.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Be able to do that.
Yeah, yeah, wow, so let me.
Let me go somewhere else.
I'd love to hear your opinionon this.
You know so to me.
You know there's a differencebetween a true alcoholic and
somebody who wants who's sober,curious, or wants to, to live
alcohol free, but they didn'treally have an you know a real
problem yet, or you know it'snot working for them.
So how, how is that approachdifferent?
I know that one seems to belike a life-saving mission and
(19:28):
the other seems to be alifestyle change, and so, seeing
as you've been doing this forquite a long time, how do you
handle that differently whenpeople come to you, or do they
not come to you for the one, butyou see more of the other?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
It's about 50-50, so to speak, the ones that you know
.
My life's falling apart.
I'm losing everything I knowI'm addicted.
I'm doing this from morning toevening.
That's easy easy to diagnose.
The other ones don't presentthat way.
They'll present with myrelationship really stinks or
I'm depressed a lot or anxious alot.
And then, as I start asking thequestions, I'm inevitably just
(20:04):
because of training and my ownexposure to addicts.
I always say any substances inyour life and be honest with me,
let's talk about this.
And then they'll say well, youknow, they won't tell me that
they have a problem with it.
They'll tell me that becauseother things are happening.
Maybe they drank a little more,or now they're smoking pot and
they got their medical card, butthey also buy some and they're
(20:28):
supplementing their prescription.
Or the gambling.
Well, I only do it once in awhile.
But yeah, how are your finances?
Well, so when we go in and westart doing history and we start
really getting all the factstogether, that's when all this
problematic behavior comes out.
Sometimes I find addictionshidden there, sometimes I find
the movement toward thatprogression where it's going to
(20:51):
take hold.
And then the other thing, ofcourse, is family history.
Do we have any of that in thefamily, any substance abuse,
other addictions, mental healthissues and I go there.
Now we start unlocking doorafter door and this stuff comes
out.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, yeah, because I think when you get further and
they say it's not really aboutthe drink or the substance, or
the food, or the sugar or thegambling, it's about what the
behaviors that that behaviorbrings, how it makes you feel
you're guilty, you're hiding,you're dishonest, you're
shameful, which kind of colorsyour personality and how you
handle people in the world.
(21:27):
Right, and so I could see it.
Yeah, that that when you saidit presents differently,
absolutely I could see that.
So they both, they both haveboth of those different aspects
of whether it's alcohol freeliving or, you know, bottom rock
, bottom alcoholism have anability to positively get better
(21:47):
.
Yeah, you know, and I try tosay we always want to educate
people.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
You know, people have a tendency to misinterpret
particularly drugs which arelegal, like alcohol and
marijuana, and those they'relegal or over the counter
amphetamines and caffeine, well,they're not doing any damage to
me.
And I say example someone comesin and says I have so much
anxiety now, I always gophysical first.
(22:11):
Okay, let's see what you'redoing.
Are you sleeping well?
Well, not so good.
Caffeine how much caffeine aday?
Well, I have three or four cupsof coffee.
You make it black and strong,you know.
I ask any energy drinks?
How much sugar?
And then, okay, by the end ofthe night you're still.
Are you tired when you go tobed?
Well, I am, but down I hit thebed and my eyes are wide open.
I said, yeah, that a caffeinepresents that way, uh, those.
(22:33):
So you know it's not because adrug is legal, does it does not
mean it's okay.
We've legalized pot now andeveryone says you know the old
story, you can't get addicted topot.
Well, you certainly can,absolutely and long range, that
there is a marijuana toxicitythat builds in the brain and
it's almost like an alcoholic'swet brain after a while.
(22:54):
That's very hard to reverse,you know.
So you know, I try to let themknow that you know these, these
addictions are compulsions wherethe brain is now becoming
overly stimulated and you cannotstop.
There's a neurologicalcomponent we have to look at
with all of this and it crossesall the addictions.
The one thing all addictionshave is that it stimulates the
(23:18):
brain and the tolerancecontinues to build in all
addictions.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Wow so just because a drug is legal doesn't mean it's
okay yeah.
No means, and that would belike caffeine, sugar, marijuana
today.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Alcohol, alcohol.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I could see that.
So, yeah, that's really andit's just everywhere and there's
just, yeah, everyone moves sofast and we consume, so and you
know, there's just such a drivefor more.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
No, it's interesting when you look at the
legalization of marijuana,everyone says well, we legalized
it because it has medicinal.
No, we didn't legalize it forthat.
We like our drugs.
We are a drug culture.
We like the stimulation and theexcitement it produces tax
dollars.
Now it's a big money crop, justlike alcohol.
(24:08):
That's why it's legal.
You can't stop it from beingproduced, so the government
cashes in.
We like our euphoria, so wepush it.
And now you'll notice it's notjust legalized for medicinal
purposes.
That was only step one.
Now it will be legalized formedicinal purposes.
That was only step one.
Now it will be legalized forrecreation.
Across the country.
We will have a whole new brandof addiction, of addicts.
(24:30):
Now we will have marijuanaaddicts yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And if you look, yeah , and I think about the driving,
you know, drinking and drivingbad, smoking and driving not
good.
And so if you look in the past,over the years, I saw, like in
the past say 20 years, just Isaw, like in the past say 20
years, just like this influx ofthe drugs change.
Okay, you had the opioidepidemic, before that crack
cocaine, I don't know.
Like before that it wassomething else.
So I look ahead and I think ofmarijuana as being like this,
(24:57):
even though it's like there's adispensary on every corner.
I don't know where you're from.
I'm in Florida and I kind ofsee them crop up and I'm like,
wow, okay, it's just like everycorner.
And when I was in Colorado itwas legal at that time.
I think it was legal when I wasthere, but not here.
I don't even know if it is hereor not, but you know, how can
something be so available formedicinal purposes and not be
(25:20):
abused or overused in otherareas?
You know, it's just like anydrug.
I don't see how it's going tobe good.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
We're manufactured to deal with intense, chronic pain
.
Well, look where the opiateepidemic went.
Marijuana will be the samething.
It's not going to be the harddrug like an opiate, but you
know the opiate you might have,depending on the person.
You might take it 10 times aday or you might take it two or
three times a day and getaddicted.
Marijuana it's not just you know, you put it in your pipe and
(25:47):
smoke it anymore.
The roots to get it into yourbody, gummies and other oral
roots too.
They have their pens with themand you know people don't know
because the smells are alldisguised.
So now you know you walk outand you take a hit off your pen
and it goes on all day long andpeople will say and you know
where I'm going, I think I'mgoing to go with this.
(26:08):
People will say I'm doing thatbecause I get anxious.
No, you're doing that becauseyou're addicted, because when
you stop it goes down and you'vegot to bring the drug back up
in your body.
So now, what used to besomething that helped you with
your anxiety now creates youranxiety and you use more of it.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
That's the addictive flow, that is the textbook
addictive flow, right it?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
absolutely is.
So that's what we'll expectnext.
So I always say we're gearingup for the next new addicts that
will come in there and theywill be younger because of the
pot.
They will start smoking potmuch, much younger.
It'll be legalized, parentswill be smoking.
It'll be around the house.
There's the vape pen over thereand the kid walks over and does
(26:55):
this, holds his breath andwalks out of the room and we
have a whole new clientele andit's going to be something that
we have never seen before.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, I remember about 10 or 15 years ago or
maybe 10, I don't know when thepills were big and I remember
thinking, gosh, I've never seenso many young people like, say,
20, 30, so much pain that theyneeded to.
You know, and yeah, and justpeople, that college kids just
(27:24):
started stealing things and youknow, just unexpected, like
regular, it's just took over somany people's lives, you know.
So, yeah, the marijuana thing,it's just up and coming and it's
bigger and bigger and it'severywhere.
So we'll just see where thisplays out.
So two you talked earlier aboutwe were touching on like
(27:45):
addiction transfers.
It's like you put down one andthen maybe you stop drinking and
then you pick up food or youknow I'm going to have, I can't
drink, so I'll have dessert, andthen it turns into something
like bigger and the samebehaviors start to be like, so
like where everything getssmaller.
So what are some of the mostcommon like addiction transfers
(28:05):
that you see in your practice?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Well, food is a big one.
That's huge.
I see a lot of that.
I see gambling.
You know they'll go to that.
One drug to the other.
Alcohol Okay, maybe now I'mdabbling in pills just a little
bit.
Or now I've started to smokeinstead of a pot.
I see a lot of that going on.
Exercise is another one, youknow.
Good, now I'm going to getmyself healthy.
(28:28):
I'm off the drug or the alcohol.
I'm going to get myself healthy.
Now I'm going to the gym sevendays a week.
I'm spending two hours there.
Now I, along with that, I'mstarting to look good.
So now I'm going to change mydiet and all the stuff is going
out.
I'm just going to put tons ofprotein in and I'm not.
The key is that once the braingets used to the acceleration
(28:53):
and the high and all thateuphoria, it seeks it out.
What we're really doing withaddicts if we treat them
properly is to learn how to takethat euphoria and drop it down
a bit On a scale of 1 to 10, soto speak.
The brain now wants an 8.
But the brain will be just ashappy at a 2, which is fine.
We want to get back to simplepleasures.
(29:15):
Addicts have a difficult timedoing something very simple,
simple pleasure without theirdrug of choice with them.
So we want to.
The training is to get thatbrain to slow down, not seek out
all this huge, this large, thisoverabundance of euphoria it
does not need, Because if wedon't do that, then the brain
(29:36):
says, okay, I can't drink, or Ican't, what else can I do?
So then we do all therationalization.
Well, I was doing that, thatwas terrible, I'll just do this
now, or this is healthy for menow, I'll just do that.
And now we have the same persontaking their addiction,
transferring it to somethingthey have now rationalized and
(29:56):
essentially they're activeaddicts.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yet yeah, yeah.
So it's extreme and so you wantto try to get to this middle
road.
And in that middle road I thinkwhat happens is, you know, at
first it's uncomfortable becauseit's not familiar to a lot of
people who've been living likeaddicted, familiar to a lot of
people who've been livingaddicted.
But when you get there and youexperience the calm, the peace,
(30:18):
the serenity, the simplicitybecause it's a lot of work to
maintain an addiction, no matterwhat it is, whether you're
hiding it or eating all proteinor going to the gym or whatever
it is so when you live in thatmiddle road it's a really great
place to be.
But it doesn't seem so invitingto someone who's been living at
(30:39):
extremes, you know, and I knowthat was true for me.
But really now the goal for meis like to get to that middle of
the road and to stay there moreoften, because that's where you
can really enjoy your life andlike see people and like eye to
eye and present tense and howtime becomes important and more
meaningful.
So there's real cause.
I remember years and years agomy main goal of my life was to
(31:03):
just like calm my mind down andto just not have it race and to
just be calm.
And you know, somewhere alongthe line in the busyness, it
comes back and it's like oh no,no, how do I get back there?
And you get back there byliving a life in the middle, I
think, if you're an addict.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Well, you do.
I try to help people understandthat our brains learn and
learning is just repetition.
It's repetition, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
So it's not this ingrained like you can't be that
because you're that.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
No, the brain it's a retraining.
Yes, talk about that a little,that's really that's really
interesting to me and, I bet, tolisteners, and hopeful it is.
You know, I tell people.
Think about it this way.
You didn't just.
You know, you're a kid and youwere born an addict and start
doing all these things Somewherealong the line.
You train your brain to acceptthis higher level of
(31:56):
acceleration, this action.
So that should tell you thatthe brain can learn.
Now, if the brain can learnthat, why can't the brain learn
to slow down and appreciatethings at a more simple level?
What do you have to do is giveit the opportunity to learn.
Yeah, that's so good.
I have a friend that lives inthe city and when I would visit
(32:19):
him it would be sirens and itwould be action, and let's go to
this club and people everywhere.
And you know, we get back tohis apartment.
I would say, let me just calmdown.
He'd come to my house and whenit was time to go to bed I had
to put a television in his room.
This was way back in the 80s.
I had to put a television inhis room just for noise, because
if he didn't hear the sirensand the yelling and the
(32:40):
screaming he couldn't go tosleep.
Training program we get intorecovery.
One of the things we're doingis retraining our brain to
understand and be able to enjoysimple pleasures.
You know, it's sort of likeyou're going to the fair and you
can enjoy walking around andhaving a nice time and talking
(33:00):
to people, versus the one that'sgot to get on that roller
coaster and go frontwards andbackwards and upside down.
And if they didn't get on theroller coaster, how was your
evening?
It was okay.
We just kind of walked aroundand did nothing.
The person says it was reallyenjoyable.
I saw so-and-so.
You know, we grabbed somethingto eat.
It was nice and calm.
(33:20):
We had a wonderful time, wenthome and it was nice and easy.
Yeah so to do that.
Not that you have to do it allthe time.
You know nothing wrong withriding the roller coaster, but
you shouldn't need to do it.
That's the key.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
You shouldn't need to do it Right, right, and so
before you talked about you,address the physical with your
clients first.
So what do you see as thephysical component?
That must be such a gift toyour system to slow it down and
to not have to live in theextremes.
(33:53):
You're talking about healthlike life, longevity, all of
those things Like.
Doesn't that affect your healthin a really positive way when
you kind of take it down?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Absolutely.
The first part of physical Ithink people understand is that
there is no such thing as anaddiction.
That is only psychological ormental.
We're physical organisms.
We feel euphoria in our brain.
Some people can say we're goingto go out tonight and I'm going
to have two glasses of wine.
(34:24):
I already know that That'll bemy limit and I'm fine.
Never think about that for therest of the week.
The next person goes out and hasone.
And you know the old story if Ihave one, I'm going to have a
hundred.
The next person goes out andhas one.
You know the ulcer If I haveone, I'm going to have 100.
So you know.
So they can't have the onebecause their brain is not set
up that way.
That one will trigger theaddictive response in the brain
(34:46):
and they'll want to continue tosupplement that.
So it's physical.
You've got to understand thatand you're not going to think
your way out of it.
You know there's a plan.
Aa has a plan.
It does address the physical.
It doesn't do it directly, buteverything it does in that slow
down teach your brain people,places and things, all that's
(35:07):
designed to slow neurology down.
It wasn't the Bill W's intent.
However, when you break it downin terms of what happened.
That's what's going on on thephysical level and we want
people to understand that.
That's why you say I think yousaid it was alcohol that you
were into If you and I went outfor the evening, I could have
one, two drinks and I'd be OK Ifyou had the one.
We don't know what's happeningnow, maybe you were lucky.
(35:28):
Maybe you're fortunate.
All the sponsors said help me,I just screwed up.
Or it's a home, and on the wayhome you stop at the liquor
store and purchase a bottle.
We don't know what's going tohappen with you.
That's the neurology that youhave that you're born with, it
wasn't.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Right, yeah, yeah, there's so much good stuff.
I really I'm enjoying thisconversation.
There's so much truth toeverything you're saying, yeah.
So what would you say to peoplewho are listening?
Your last book.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Jessica, when I started doing this I wanted to
help people empower themselvesfrom the inside that's my way of
doing things and get to a pointof balance.
We're physical, we'reintellectual, we're emotional,
we're spiritual.
Again, if you look at the12-step program, it hits all
four of those.
We want to get those in balance, not at a high level anywhere.
I always say on a scale of 1 to10, it could be a 2 or a 10.
(36:20):
It's irrelevant, so they're inbalance.
So I wanted to help peoplelearn to do that, get their
emotions down, get more clarityof thought, get their body in
physical shape so it helps them,it's not a hindrance and
hopefully to connect to yourspirituality.
That was the first book.
The pandemic hit and we lookedand I said all right, look at
(36:41):
the anxiety level here.
So second book was the Fix yourAnxiety Handbook.
Following that, we sawdepression coming at the end of
the pandemic.
So we went with depression.
Well, we saw in the countrywhat we just the presidential
election just personified theanger that we're experiencing.
So that was the fourth book.
But I always had this in my headthat I needed to do one on
(37:01):
addiction.
I've worked so much withaddiction and so much at so many
levels.
So the fifth book was the Fixyour Addiction Handbook.
Interestingly, the 12-stepprograms in my area of course a
lot of people I know in the areaI've treated came back and said
I bought the book.
Do you mind if I take this tomy meeting?
Please do.
And now the 12-steppers in myarea are starting to use this as
(37:24):
supplemental reading, which isreally nice to hear.
The goal of that book is reallyto help people understand that
this is something that if you'rewilling to work with there are
ways to do that.
There's an abundance oftreatment out there if you're
willing to do it.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, and you know, just in talking to you I could
tell that I mean well, becauseyou have been in this for so
many years and worked with somany people.
If someone is working in12-step and wants to supplement
with this if they're not goingto a therapist, if they're not
able to go to a therapistbecause of expenses or this or
that, like purchase this series,you know, walk through it.
(38:05):
It's not like it was written.
You know, when I was readingthe excerpts I was so it really
resonated with me.
It spoke to me because of thedirectness of it and the actions
.
And I love the family component, like we had talked about
earlier, because everyone'sliving in that and it helps them
kind of navigate through that.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
If any advice I give to people is don't play with
recovery.
There is no such thing as yourversion of recovery.
Everyone likes to think thatway.
Recovery in my, the way I teachit and the way I counsel is an
all or nothing proposition.
You know it's just.
You can't.
You can't get your defenses anddeny this and rationalize that
(38:43):
and it doesn't work.
You've got to be brutallyhonest with yourself and the
people that are helping you.
If you're willing to say, okay,it's done.
I am putting myself into this,yes, I know what I'm signing up
for.
It's going to get hard.
However, I'm not alone andevery step of the way, as hard
as it gets, there's going to bethat person there who is going
(39:04):
to help me.
You don't have to have acounselor right away.
There are support groupseverywhere for all the
addictions.
They're online Exactly.
There are 12-step programs.
There are free ways to do thisand people just waiting to wrap
their arms around you but yougot to give them the chance.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's right.
That's right.
Well, it was such a pleasurehaving you on today.
So much good information.
Where can people buy the bookand where can they find you
during the week?
Speaker 2 (39:32):
The best place for both of that is my website.
It's my name fosteragerocom and, as you said, excerpts from the
books are there.
You can see what they're like.
Everything about the booksmyself, the appearances, all
those things, they're all thereand there's a contact link and I
do get back to people if theycontact.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for beinghere and sharing all of that
information to listeners.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
It has been a pleasure Thanks.
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