November 5, 2024 • 44 mins
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In 2009, as Louie Bischoff's 20-year marriage was ending, she used alcohol to cope with the sadness, grief, and depression. Louie grew up in a domestic violence household where having any type of feeling or emotion, positive or negative, was met with shame, anger, and violence; turning to alcohol at the end of her relationship seemed like an easy way to numb out through this
challenging time. Her divorce was finalized in 2010 when her sons were 6 and 8 years old. Then in July 2012, Louie realized that alcohol was ruling her life and that she was neglecting her kids, then 8 & 10.
By doing personal growth work with professionals, and other people in recovery and by continuing to put herself out there in the dating environment, Louie began pulling all of her notes, thoughts, ideas, and learnings together to create the initial framework of what is now the SOBER Relationship BlueprintTM®. Today, Louie is an entrepreneur, a great mother to her young adult sons, and an advocate for sober living. Louie has her undergrad from the University of Arizona, her MBA from Thunderbird School of Global Business, resides in Phoenix, Arizona, and has been sober from alcohol since July 11, 2012.
In this episode, we uncover the importance of self-esteem and authenticity in dating free from the societal pressures that glamorize alcohol and perfect relationships. Louie's approach of treating dating as a practice or social experiment rings true for anyone attempting to navigate the world of romance while sober. Learn about the crucial role that self-reflection and boundary-setting play in personal growth and how honesty, clarity, and recovery connect to building genuine relationships.
As Louie shares insights into the Sober Relationship Blueprint, we explore the possibility of a healthier relationship journey. This episode will guide you through establishing boundaries, fostering self-awareness, and finding meaningful connections beyond fleeting encounters. Tune in for invaluable lessons on resilience and hope, and discover how love relationships can positively influence other aspects of life. Louie invites listeners to explore further resources available on her website, including a free downloadable workbook designed to support anyone looking to improve their relationships in sobriety.
Connect with Louie Bischoff:
Grab a free copy of Quick Tips for Creating a Healthy SOBER Love Relationship which can be accessed via the main website, SoberRelationshipBlueprint.com
- SRB Website: https://www.soberrelationshipbluepri
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you are single and sober and ever wonder if a
thriving love relationship iseven possible, you're going to
love.
To meet my next guest.
Her name is Louie Bischoff.
She's the founder of the SoberRelationship Blueprint, which
offers online dating andrelationship coaching for single
people who are sober from drugs, alcohol, food, gambling and
sex addiction.
In 2009, she had a 20-yearmarriage that came to an end.
(00:24):
She used alcohol to cope withthe sadness, grief and
depression.
She grew up in a domesticallyviolent household where any type
of feeling of emotion, whetherpositive or negative, was met
with shame, anger and violence.
So turning to alcohol at theend of her own relationship
seemed like an easy way to numbout through this challenging
time.
Her divorce was finalized in2010, when her sons were six and
(00:48):
eight years old.
Then, in July 2012, louierealized that alcohol was ruling
her life and that she wasneglecting her kids, then eight
and 10.
By doing personal growth withprofessionals, other people in
recovery, and by continuing toput herself out there in the
dating environment, she beganpulling all her notes, thoughts
and ideas together and came upwith the framework of what is
(01:11):
now known as the SoberRelationship Blueprint.
Today she's a successfulentrepreneur, a great mother to
her young adult sons and anadvocate for sober living.
So tune in for her personalstory.
(01:35):
Welcome to the Sober LivingStories podcast.
This podcast is dedicated tosharing stories of sobriety.
We shine a spotlight onindividuals who have faced the
challenges of alcoholism andaddiction and are today living
out their best lives sober.
Each guest has experiencedincredible transformation and
are here to share their storywith you.
I'm Jessica Stepanovic, yourhost.
Join me each week as guestsfrom all walks of life share
(01:58):
their stories to inspire andprovide hope to those who need
it most.
(02:20):
Hi and welcome to anotherepisode of the Sober Living
Stories podcast.
Meet Louis Bischoff.
She's the founder of the SoberRelationship Blueprint, which
offers online dating andrelationship coaching for single
people who are sober from drugs, alcohol, food, gambling and
sex addiction.
She's going to share herpersonal story.
(02:40):
I'm excited about this forlisteners because this is the
first time we've had someone onthat talks about relationships
which are really in questionwhen you become sober, because
sober is such a Drinking I'msorry is such a social.
This is how we get started inrelationships, so you're going
(03:00):
to bring another perspective.
I'm so excited to hear yourpersonal story.
So welcome to the show, louie.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's such a joy to be here andsuch a pleasure to be your guest
, and thank you for theopportunity and the invitation
to be able to be here and alsoshare my story, but also be able
to help other people too.
That's certainly what I'verecognized that the more that
I'm able to share more things,the more that people are like me
(03:30):
too, me too, me too.
So it's just a wonderful placeto be.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Thank, you again for the opportunity.
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, if you could juststart from your.
You know we want to hear yourpersonal story and then lead us
all the way up to how you got todo it, with what you're doing
today to serve other people inthis area.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, great, great question.
You know I, as you mentionedand thank you for the intro on
that as well as you mentioned,I'm the founder of the Sober
Relationship Blueprint and theSober Relationship Blueprint and
that's where I'll end up also.
But the Sober RelationshipBlueprint is set up specifically
in five different modules usingthe word sober, s-o-b-e-r, and
each one of the letters of theword sober is an area of
(04:11):
learning and I got to thoseareas of learning my own
experience of being single andsober after my marriage ended,
sober after my marriage ended.
So a little bit about my storyis I didn't drink alcoholically
for very long.
(04:32):
I drank regularly as a gentleman, as they say, so to speak, as
the book says, as the big booksays.
Why can't he learn how to drinklike a gentleman?
Well, I guess I was a gentlelady.
But the aspect about that isthat I could see the end of my
marriage coming down the road,so to speak, and that's when I
(04:52):
started drinking alcoholically.
So it was about for three yearsand I'm not minimizing my
experience at all and it's not acompetition, but that's just my
story and the reason why that Iwas drinking alcoholically for
me.
I mean, I know that I'm analcoholic, but the reason why is
because I was in the painbecause I, my marriage, was
(05:16):
ending.
I was in my marriage, myrelationship with my former
husband, for almost 20 years andI conceded that it was coming
and I didn't have as, as theword is said is a maladaptive
coping skill right coping toolwas using alcohol to ease, to
numb out, to ease the pain andthe grief and the just the loss
(05:40):
of the relationship ending.
And, for the record, I was theone who ended my marriage.
It just ended.
It wasn't because of mydrinking, it wasn't because of
other people, it wasn't becauseof money, it was because we just
got to that point where it justwasn't getting better and it
just kept not getting better.
(06:01):
So I just was, like I said, sadand that was the tool that I
was using At that time when Iended the marriage.
When the marriage ended, it wasactually now a long time ago,
in 2010.
My sons were six and eight and,as I said, I was drinking
alcoholically.
I continued to drinkalcoholically after the divorce
(06:23):
into early divorce time andfinally walked into, for me, the
12 steps of work.
I know that's not for everyone,but for me that's what I did
and it was in 2012.
And at the time my kids were 8and 10.
So that's a little bit aboutjust kind of the super surface
(06:44):
level regarding my drinking andwhat it looked like.
But let me just kind of fill ina little bit of a backstory I
grew up in.
I'm the oldest of three kids.
My parents were self-employedso they were very attentive to
building the business and I grewup in a domestic violence
household.
(07:04):
So there was constant, ofcourse, constant violence, but
also constant instability, nocertainty, because a combination
, like I said, because they wereself-employed and building a
business.
So there was a lot.
Work was number one.
Value work was number two.
Value work was number three.
Value work was number one.
(07:25):
Value work was number two.
Value work was number three.
Value work was number fourvalue and the aspect around
family didn't come to like maybenumber 100 in the values that I
saw.
So, without having thedirection of learning about
comfort or learning aboutfeelings, or learning about
safety or seeing boundariesrespected, not any of those
(07:49):
things.
And in my household we werepunished for having any kind of
feelings.
So I had no feelings.
So it wasn't just like badfeelings, like you'd be crying
in the proverbial oh, why areyou crying?
I'll give you something to cryabout.
It was also like, oh, I got alittle gold star on my spelling
bee.
Like, well, who do you thinkyou are?
You think you're someonespecial?
(08:10):
I'm like, oh, I guess not.
So as I became more of an adultand um, came into like, uh,
being a teenager in high school,I didn't know boundaries, I
didn't know, I just saw tons ofcaretaking.
I was a huge caretaker in thefamily because my parents were
(08:32):
working building their business,so I was taking care of my
brothers.
I got rewarded like, oh, thankyou so much for helping.
Good job, having to try andcaretake around the violence,
trying to minimize, trying tointerfere, take the violence for
myself versus my youngerbrothers.
So as I came into teendom,those aspects about being a
(08:52):
people pleaser, trying toeliminate strife, working as
hard as I could to controlsituations just continued to, I
mean, get strengthened.
And that's how I started to showup as an adult and just not
knowing how to have boundariesbeing involved with
(09:14):
relationships, sexualrelationships, simultaneously
being in a committedrelationship but having side
relationships because, again,I'm not saying like it was a bad
, I'm a bad person I just didn'tknow how to have boundaries.
I felt like I had no worth.
I was always seeking theexternal validation because
(09:36):
internally I didn't have anyworth, I didn't have any
validation and that pattern ismy pattern for life, until now.
So when I started, you know,just a few minutes ago,
communicating and sharing withyou about like, oh, I didn't
drink alcoholically for verylong, that is true.
But the pattern of not being ahealthy, mature adult is where I
(10:04):
went through and how I wentthrough all of my adult life,
from early teendom, from 13,right From 13 until 43, when I
walked into AA and it was in the12 steps and again, it just
worked for me.
But it was the aspect aboutstarting to show up and learn
(10:24):
how to be a better mother, howto be a better sister, how to be
a better worker, how to be abetter leader, how to be a
better daughter.
I had to learn those things.
I thought I knew them, but Ihad to learn those things.
And then just being single anddating and then just develop the
(10:47):
sober relationship blueprintand being able to be out there
helping people to learn how todate sober, be single and sober
and have relationships.
So it's a little bit of mystory.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, very good.
Yeah, when you were speaking, Ithought of the, the, the phrase
.
You know, health attractshealth.
So if that's true, thenunhealthy attracts unhealthy.
So you know, having that periodof time where you know you
weren't and having siderelationships and just not
knowing.
You know and and I think thatmight be true for a lot of
(11:19):
people you know, as we come intoour adulthood or our twenties
and thirties there, my twentieswere you know navigation of like
into our adulthood, or ourtwenties and thirties they're my
twenties were you knownavigation of like.
Where did I go, like who youknow?
And then when we come intolater thirties, twenties and
thirties, we start, we startlooking internally and I think
what's what's really good aboutwhat you said?
I know, um, not everybody isfor the 12 steps, but I know
(11:40):
that that that program structurereally takes everybody out of
the picture.
Like the blame game is over andwe're just looking at, like
being responsible for who we are, which is the good news, you
know, because we can only changeourselves, which is essentially
what you did.
And you know, socializing in adrinking world is a lot easier,
(12:03):
right, especially with mattersof the heart, because it kind of
gives you that liquid courageto just go out and be, but I
think, in sobriety, if you dostruggle with the isms and the
alcoholism, in sobriety, wow,those relationships really can
be powerful, meaningful andreally long lasting.
So thank you for sharing yourpersonal story, but what would
(12:27):
be some advice to give to likestep out there in in a way that
you know you still maintainyourself, do the work first and
then step out, um, or just kindof like learn who you are?
Like, how do you do that If, ifyou're, you're just getting
sober?
How'd you do it?
Oh, I love the loaded, it's aloaded question.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, oh, it's just super easy.
No, it's not easy.
Great question.
So what I heard you ask isbasically how do you get started
?
The adult world is very focused,as we know, as you mentioned,
focused on alcohol.
And how do I start to get outthere and have relationships and
what does it look like?
And I appreciate what you saidearlier.
(13:13):
Right is that healthy attractshealthy and vice versa.
You know, I use the phrasingalso water attracts, water seeks
its own level.
So when I'm at a low waterlevel, right, I'm going to be
seeking more low water aspectslevel.
So when I'm at a low waterlevel, right, I'm going to be
seeking more low water aspects,and when I'm at a higher water
level, I'm going to be lookingfor that higher water direction
too.
So it is true, and that's beenmy experience.
(13:34):
So, how to get started?
Um, you know, that's a reallygreat question.
I've worked with a lot ofpeople and where I find the
stumbling block is and it takestime and we work together is the
concept of.
I'll say it this way I alwaysstart off when I'm working with
(13:55):
my clients of saying that lifeis a documentary, it's not a
Disney movie.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And so what?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I mean by that is that so much of our concepts
it's not, it's just informationso much of our concepts around
relationships and romanticrelationships I'll speak to
directly are conceived from aDisney thought process of a fall
in love happily ever after, ofa fall in love happily ever
(14:23):
after.
There is one person, this kindof fantasy thinking, and when I
work with people, I beginworking with people.
As I said, I start with thatlittle snippet, that little
phrase about right Life is adocumentary movie, not a Disney
movie, and let's sit down andunpack that a little bit.
(14:43):
And when?
My experience is is that itactually is.
Yes, and so, yes, keep workingon yourself.
Yes, keep doing the things thatyou need to be doing, whether
it's working with professionals,whether it's working with a
sober coach, whether it's doing12 step recovery, whether it's
whatever it is that you're doingfor yourself, to grow yourself
(15:04):
and be able to start movingforward.
For me, when I started dating, Iwas not dating at all, and this
is what I say is I was notdating to get into a
relationship.
I was dating to see if I couldbegin to change my behavior.
(15:24):
I could begin to change mybehavior If, if somebody, if the
man that I'm.
I'm a heterosexual female.
If the man that I was on a datewith wanted to see me again but
I didn't like him and I wasn'tinterested, did I have enough
self-esteem?
Did I have enough self-esteem?
Did I have enoughself-confidence?
(15:45):
Did I have enough courage tosay thank you?
I appreciate you saying that,but this is not a fit for me
because, as I mentioned about inmy story, like I'm a, I was
groomed to be a people pleaser.
Right, because there was, therewas a direct effect if things
(16:07):
were amiss at the house growingup.
So what are these things that Ican do?
Well, it's okay, I'm unhappy, Ijust need to make sure the
house is okay, or the kitchen'scleaned up so that I don't get
beat up, or my mom doesn't getbeat up, or my brothers don't
get there, so there's morecomfort or stability or safety,
and so, okay.
(16:27):
So many times, so many times, Ican't even write my.
It was like oh, my college daysor after whatever, like oh, I
really like you, louie, I reallylike you, but I'm like I don't
really like him, but okay, helikes me, okay, oh.
So I go out on a date andsomebody says, oh, can I give
you a kiss, I'm like I don'tlike him, I don't want him to
(16:49):
kiss me, like that does notsound appealing.
Like no that's not going to becomfortable for me.
Wait, what Like?
Who said that I mean I could,but I couldn't, and that's how I
started dating.
Jessica was just being able topractice.
Yeah, like an experiment.
My own data point, one socialexperiment.
(17:12):
Okay, how about this?
Okay, how about this?
So when I work with my clients,there's only one thing I say is
do you want to only go on onemore date with this person?
That's all Not.
Do I want to get in arelationship?
Not do I want to have kids?
(17:33):
Not do I want to like.
Is this person going to supportmy recovery?
None of that, because that'sall fantasy thinking and it
takes me out of being present.
So when I'm in that position ofbeing able to sit in that seat
on the date or go walking or gofor, you know, bike riding,
whatever that date looks like,I'm only looking at it with the
(17:56):
filter of do I want to talk tothis person one more time?
And the answer is no, that'stotally fine, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
And that's okay.
Yes, yeah, and I love youbrought up the word self-esteem
and I think in getting soberit's a rebuild.
For sure, from whateverbackground you come from, it's a
definite rebuild and with anincrease in self-esteem also
comes an increase inself-respect.
But I love what you're sayingbecause it's a small step, it's
(18:29):
like a practice and it's keepingit on you and what you view as
being okay to go further andthen having the courage to voice
that and to see the responseand like, regardless of what it
is, be okay with it, and thenkind of come back and talk to
your people and try and do itagain, because that's ultimately
like how you rebuild and startto change, right.
(18:52):
So that's essentially howyou're doing this coaching, I
would imagine, and you did ityourself.
You built it out ofself-experience, yeah.
So talk a little bit about theimportance of self-esteem and
how it correlates withself-respect in the early days
of getting back out there andbeing sober.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah.
So love that, love, love, lovethat.
So the question is rightbasically, what's the importance
of self-esteem?
Well, I'm just going to talkabout sober relationship
blueprint for one second,because sober relationship
blueprint, as I mentioned, eachletter of the word sober is an
area of learning and it's notaccidental on the way that the
(19:37):
letters are arranged or, excuseme, the words in the letters.
So the S is for self-esteem andthe O is for openness, the B's
for boundaries, the E isevolving into other intimacies
beyond sexual intimacy, and thenthe R is for readiness.
So when I set up the like yousaid, exactly, it was from my
own, all my own experience.
(19:58):
When I set up the soberrelationship blueprint, I knew
the S had to be aroundself-esteem, because I can't go
forward with anything elsewithout building up that
confidence, the self-esteem,that belief, even if it's a
little tiny, baby belief that Iam enough and that I'm worthy.
And then the O is about beingopen to new things.
(20:21):
Like, oh, I only date this typeof guy, I only have this type
of girlfriend.
Yeah, but what if you don't?
What if it's as you said, it'sa rebuild, let's be open.
And then creating thoseboundaries with the B.
So the reason why I wanted tosay that and getting back to
your question is because for me,and what you said, is that it
(20:44):
does have to start withself-esteem.
But it's not just wave of magicwand.
And now you have self-esteem,because in my experience and my
understanding is that it all isinternal, sure, so I'm sharing
about, I'm looking for thatexterior right, that external
(21:04):
validation for myself, becauseinterior, internal, I don't feel
enough, I don't feel valuable,I don't feel worthy, I don't
inside.
So how do I build that up?
So, with self-worth, um, uh,when I started dating, I mean, I
had a sponsor, 12-step sponsor,and that was helping, but I
(21:26):
didn't have a dating coach.
So when I work with my clients,right, we're specifically
targeting on these things.
So working together with mindsetof of the iams, or affirmations
like I am worthy, I am valuable, even though that sounds silly,
but it's actually reallyvaluable to continue to change
(21:47):
the, the thought process, theneuro, the neuro processes and,
in my experience, havingself-worth, having
self-confidence, havingself-esteem allows me to begin
to sit still and listen toreally what I really want, what
(22:10):
I really need.
What does that look like?
How do I verbalize my wants andneeds and my boundaries and
keep those boundaries.
Like early on when I starteddating, I would like, oh, I've
got a boundary.
Like I was just sharing.
Like, oh, somebody wanted tokiss me and I didn't want to
kiss him.
Okay, I don't want to kiss you,and there's my boundary.
And then 30 seconds later I'mlike boundary with boundary.
(22:31):
Like here's me making out withthe person in the parking lot
because I verbalized it but Ididn't keep the boundary Right.
So these are all my ownpersonal growth.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Wrong with me.
I'm not a bad person.
These are just the things I hadto learn and that I recognize.
Other people need to learn tooif they want to.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Sure, yeah, it makes me think about, I remember early
on, because we talk a lot about, you know, self-evolvement, but
then too, I think, what goeshand in hand with growing
internally and spiritually orotherwise, you have a value on
how the other person feels aswell.
(23:16):
So, whereas before you talkedabout kissing someone you really
didn't want to kiss, so thereyou're giving them the false
hope that there's somethingthat's going to happen in the
future or there's a relationshipthat's going to come from this,
when internally you know that'snot going to happen and at some
point you have enough selfworth upon yourself but you also
(23:38):
have enough, um, like respectfor other people to not do that
anymore, to not let somebodyhang on where you know you don't
give false hope because that'snot what you're about, you know.
So it's not only like a respectfor you and to end it when it's
supposed to be ended, but italso allows the other person to
move on, to be in the truth ofwhere you're really at, so that
(24:00):
they can say, oh, okay, thenshe's not really for me and I'm
going to have to move on.
So it gives them that grace too, as you give yourself that
practice of being able.
And I think another thing thatwe could talk about, if you
don't mind, is they talk about,in early sobriety, getting
comfortable, being uncomfortable, and so when we do things
(24:22):
differently, like if you say,yeah, I had a great time, but
yeah, I don't want to do thisagain for next time, that may be
severely uncomfortable forpeople to voice their truth,
right, and but what, what comes?
Tell us what happens on theother side.
If you really allow yourself tobe uncomfortable, to hear
(24:43):
yourself say that and to be like, oh my God, was that me, did I
say that?
But when you get home, how doesthat feel if it's the truth?
Because the truth is hard, youknow, but it's necessary if you
want to get healthy.
So what's it like when you gethome after speaking your mind
and you know it's a success,right mind?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
and you know it's a.
It's a success right, yeah, it.
Well, you know like over time,the perception becomes that it's
a success right, but, as you'resaying in the moment, because
it's a different behavior itfeels really uncomfortable.
Sure.
What you were just saying,jessica, reminds me of what one
of the Brene Brown sayings right, clear is kind.
And when I'm working with myclients and even for myself, I
(25:29):
just hold on to those threewords because clear is kind For
me, this alcoholic, this addict,this person over here who's
been in active addiction before.
This person knows how to lie.
I know how to live a doublelife, I know what that looked
like.
I know the, the lying, themanipulation, the, the way that
(25:54):
I just moved through my life byhaving the double life all the
time, the amount of energy ittook to do all those things.
Right, right, to do the lies,to live the lies, to say the
lies, to do the manipulation, todo all the hiding.
And so clear is kind and asI've gotten more sober, is that
(26:17):
I move away from the lying, fromthe deception and, like you're
saying, leading people on.
Now I can recognize that.
You know, when I'mcommunicating with someone, when
I'm going on a date withsomeone, or when I'm even
working with someone or a client, I can recognize that that
exterior thing, that person, istriggering my addict or
(26:39):
triggering the codependent, ortriggering that intensity that I
used to seek out at being inactive addiction, and now I can
recognize that.
So back, going back to what youwere saying regarding being
comfortable with beinguncomfortable because it's all
new, right, as you were saying,is that getting sober is having
(27:02):
to rebuild.
Having to rebuild and becausethe previous Louis or the
previous anybody right, this iswhat I'm used to, or I'm used to
the chaos, or I'm used to thecodependency, I'm used to
sleeping with people.
This is my pattern, that I'mused to.
But I want to change thepattern.
And the only way I can changeyour pattern right If nothing
(27:24):
changes, nothing changes.
The only way I can change thepattern right If nothing changes
, nothing changes.
The only way I can change is isthat I change it and in my
experience, having other peoplearound me or me being of support
to other people reallycontinues to fortify that change
and that discomfort.
(27:44):
I remember a couple of years agothat when I was going on lots
of first dates and I was in arecovery meeting and I was
saying, and I sat there and itwas my turn to share and I said
you guys, if I did not know thatI'm doing the right thing by
going on so many first dates, Iwould think that I'm doing the
(28:05):
wrong thing.
Like what's wrong with me.
I keep going on first datesLike why can't I, you know, find
some?
Or like what's wrong, why don'tyou know?
Just kind of like that, mentalgymnastics, what's not helping
me.
But knowing like going onmultiple first dates is actually
positive because it'seliminating what I don't want.
(28:26):
But it's uncomfortable, likeyou're saying, and continuing to
be in the discomfort, and then,as you said, when I get home,
I'm like, oh wow, cool, I didthat.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Who knew.
That's great.
And I think a lot aboutpercentages when I think of
early sobriety and matters ofthe heart, right, because we
tend to.
You know, if you're in arelationship where you have an
interest, it takes up a lot ofyour mind space and it takes up
(28:57):
a lot of you know your day andit's like an 80-20,.
You know 80% the relationship,20% of what we're supposed to be
doing, you know, and when wekeep it on ourselves which is
essentially what you're talkingabout, is it really can shift
that to 80-20, like where 20 canbe the relationship and 80 can
(29:19):
be on how we're reacting to it,or you know how we're fitting it
into our life instead of makingit our entire life.
And I think that's so importantbecause it's like you talked
about the mental gymnastics andlike it's a.
It's a big energy drain and alot of exhaustion to live the
previous Jessica or the previousLouie right.
(29:41):
It's just a lot of um, figuringout stuff that we don't have to
, being responsible for peoplewe don't have to be responsible
for and their feelings andactions and such.
And when we write ourselves, itgives us that energy back to
kind of just be us and to focuson what we're supposed to be
(30:01):
focusing on, but then to kind ofgive that 20% like yeah, we're
going to go out there again, orsure, I'd like to go out again,
but it's not going to beconsuming your life, because
you're like rebuildinginternally yourself.
You know, and it's not abouteverybody and everyone else's
feelings, which you know go withpeople pleasing and a lot of
the isms that come with being analcoholic actively or growing
(30:25):
up in an environment that wasn'tquite healthy.
So, wow, there's a lot, a lotof good there.
It's it's like balances it outalmost.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, thank you, and just wanted to touch back on um.
I know that uh, uh, you and Imay have, you know, some time
under our belts for being soberand I don't want to have your
listeners think like this iseasy.
I just can only speak for my ownjourney, like it's still one
day at a time and I don't meanone day at a time that I'm not
(30:59):
going to pick up alcohol ordrink or do other things I don't
need to be doing.
It's one day at a time of justmoving through today and just
life, just for me, and so earlyin sobriety and getting back
into that aspect around socialalcohol and what that looks like
is being able to like, forexample, work with me or work
(31:22):
with someone, or even with asponsor or a guide or a mentor,
having someone on your side, inyour corner, that can guide you
through these new things, rightThrough that discomfort, through
the like, how do I?
Do I put this on my datingprofile that I don't drink?
Do I put on my dating profile,like, how do I do I tell them
right away?
And you know, one of the thingsthe biggest thing I've learned
(31:44):
is that people have to earn theright to hear my story and so
that I it's not this false senseof vulnerability when I go out
on date.
Number one of like let me tellyou all about this trauma it's
that they have to earn the right.
I didn't know that Cause Ididn't have any belief that I
had boundaries and and had words.
(32:05):
So I just am like let me tellyou about all the trauma versus
someone has to earn the right tobe able to hear my story.
So when I'm present in my date,that first date, the second,
whatever that looks like.
But I'm building up thatself-esteem.
I'm sitting in my discomfort,I'm being present and observing
(32:27):
myself like, oh, my date's notasking me any questions.
Oh, that person's a jerk, okay,but how come, when the person's
not asking you any questions,what is that about you?
Oh, the person's not asking mequestions.
I feel not enough.
I feel not worthy that theywant to know about me.
Okay, let's unpack that alittle bit versus oh, that guy
(32:51):
was a jerk, or that person was ajerk, or that woman was just
like she couldn't get right.
I don't care about the otherperson on the other side of the
table from you, I care about you.
And being able to be in thatspace early in sobriety or
middle sobriety or long-termsobriety it's all not easy.
That's just been my yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
I love that I, the um , you know, whatever you, it's
the right to hear my story andbecause a lot of times I know,
if I come, come across uh, somegirls or otherwise, and myself
too, you know, I used to just,you know, say it all in one in
the first 15, you know, and thenyou hear other people do that
(33:31):
and say, oh, wow, that was a lotof information to give someone
they don't even know.
You know, and to guard that.
And I think that's another stepin self-respect also
self-restraint, listening andjust self-esteem, where you know
we're not any more likeconnecting through, like
(33:51):
woundology, you know, like we'renot anymore connecting through
woundology, we're not connectingour wounds, right, I think that
was like Carolyn Miss orsomething.
Anyway, it's just like that'snot where we're living anymore.
We're just I'm listening to you, we're presentensing it right,
and so you're starting new andyou're building a new life and
you don't have to connectthrough your you know
(34:12):
hostilities and your survivalkit and your like past mistakes,
but you connecting in health,in a sense.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, exactly, and being able to.
Again, I can't control theother person, right, I can only
control myself.
But I can say like, okay, I'mgoing to have boundaries around
this, I'm going to.
I just can only speak formyself and say, like when I was
in those positions, and then I'mlike oversharing.
(34:42):
Right, the easy word isoversharing.
I'm oversharing all this stuffbecause I have this false belief
and false, but I thought it wasreal but because I have this
false sense of vulnerability andconnection.
The next thing that I know andthat's not a value statement or
it's not a judgment but with thenext thing, I know that I'm in
(35:04):
their bedroom and doing adultthings and and you know, I just
met him two hours earlier.
Again, not a judgment, not avalue statement, I'm just saying
like, for me, I did that overand over and over again because
I felt that there was someattention, I had some value,
there was some connection.
(35:24):
Yes, I mean, now I don't lookfor that connection and other
people's bedrooms or otherpeople's beds.
I look for that connection,that that depth of connection
with other people, like inrecovery or in the rooms, or
with the people that I work with.
That there's where I buildconnection, and those are much
deeper connections than what Ibelieve they look like.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yes, yes, and that reminds me of a someone I had
met once.
She was, she was a great girland I remember she was very just
new to dating and she went outwith someone at night and she
had slept with him the firstnight and I remember her coming
over the next day and she said,gosh, he hasn't called, he
(36:08):
hasn't called.
And then the next day, hehasn't called, he hasn't called.
And I remember saying to herwell, he doesn't have to like
cause it already had happened.
And she was like, wow, you know, like she gave her self away
that night, you know, and it waslike her first little piece of
awareness that, wow, this is a,this can be a slow build.
(36:34):
Like this isn't like you know,old me first time, right, like
she was just putting it together, like, wow, he didn't have to
call me back.
You know like when you say youearn the right to hear my
personal story, you also earnthe right to be in an intimate
situation with me.
You know which a lot of peoplemaybe didn't come to the table
(36:54):
with knowing right, and sothat's a learning curve for and
just another thing withself-respect and boundaries and
self-esteem, you know what feelsbetter.
You know, and yeah, it's reallyall great information so far.
I just I really value havingyou on here talking about this
(37:15):
like candidly and and that'swhat I love about this podcast A
lot of times we talk aboutthings that people just don't
talk about.
You know, out of closed, inside,closed doors and, um, this is
definitely an area that you knowas human beings.
You know that as human beings,we're meant to be in a
(37:37):
relationship and we're meant tobe next to someone, right, and I
know, for me, I was like a loneperson for a while.
I was self-sufficient to theutmost degree, and I remember my
brother saying to me you'relike a truck that has that beep,
beep, beep.
You just back it up when itgets too close, right, or like a
dog, he's eating out of hisbowl and another dog comes up
and he's like, you know, he'sjust like he's upset, he's like
(37:59):
get out of here, you know.
And he said, hey, we are meantto be in relation with people,
you know, because I think hewanted that for me and it was
just so unattainable because Iwas so stuck in my anger or
whatever, because I was just soraw, you know, in my
relationship with myself and myrelationship with the world at
that time.
And that's changed and it'sbeen a big gift, you know, and
(38:22):
he was right, and so I think youbring that to the table.
You give people the opportunityto grow relationships sober.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
So could you?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
tell us to grow relationships sober.
So could you tell us you know alittle bit more about what you
do and how you help individuals,and at what stage they have to
be to contact you?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, I love that.
Thank you so much.
You know, the SoberRelationship Blueprint is the
company that I founded and isdirected at helping people
create healthy, sober loverelationships and the focus is
on love relationships andromantic relationships.
But it's actually allrelationships, right, Because as
(39:02):
I start to build, like you weretalking earlier about
self-worth or self-confidence,right, as I start to have a
better relationship with myself,all of my relationships start
to get better my romanticrelationships, family, all of
those work relationships theyget better.
So Sober Relationship Blueprinthelps single people in recovery
(39:24):
from addictions, whether it'sbehavior addictions or chemical
addiction, able to start tobuild those healthy, sober love
relationships.
And I wanted just to touch realquickly two quick things.
As I mentioned before, is thateach letter of the word sober is
an area of learning, right?
So the S is self-esteem, the Ois openness, b is boundaries, e
(39:46):
is evolving into otherintimacies besides sexual
intimacy, and then the R is forreadiness.
So one of the things you werejust talking about earlier
regarding, you know, the womanthat you knew who became
sexually intimate with someone,is that I was that person all
the time, all the time Because Ididn't know, I didn't know
(40:07):
there were other intimacies thatI could build with people, not
just romantic partners, butother intimacies.
The E in sober is being able toevolve into other intimacies so
that I can learn how to beemotionally intimate with
someone.
I can learn how to beintellectually intimate with
someone.
I can learn how to bespiritually intimate, and it
(40:28):
doesn't have to be my romanticpartner, it's just for me having
to learn about those otherintimacies.
And then the R for readiness isbeing able to be ready to go
out and do those things.
You know have a sober datingplan.
I work with people all the timeon creating that sober dating
plan working on the profiles forthe dating apps, making sure
(40:49):
that it's the right balance oflanguage to protect you as a
person out there dating and tobe able to be open to other new
things as well.
So sober relationship blueprintis set up for that is to help
single people in sobriety fromchemicals or for behavior.
And you asked like where dothey have to be?
(41:11):
Um, I can't.
I would say optimally this isnot a hard fast optimally, as
the phrasing goes to be soberfor at least a year, because
being able to start to do thatrebuild um out of old behaviors,
but I I can't mandatory,mandatorily make somebody be
sober for a year or more in theprogram, but that's optimally
(41:33):
where somebody is going to be,because they're going to get
more out of it.
And I have a free download.
It's five quick tips forhealthy, sober love relationship
.
It's on my website, soberrelationship blueprint one
wordcom, so it's a pop and it'seasy to find.
It'll just be a pop up.
Put your name, email address intheir phone number, click it.
(41:57):
You'll get the email with thedownload.
It's really great, you know.
One of the things you mentionedearlier was about listening.
Yeah, listening is one of thefive quick tips to build a
healthy, sober love relationship.
I need to learn how to listenwith discernment to become
better.
So you know just differentthings like that, and I love
(42:17):
doing what I do because I seethe results immediately and
having people men and women beable to start to learn more
about themselves and learn howto have healthy, sober love
relationships using the soberrelationship blueprint that I've
created.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, and you back it with life experience and when
you've walked through ityourself, who better to teach
that?
I also.
There's two things that stuckout to me as we close.
You do say love relationshipson your website and that really
caught my eye because you canstart, because it's like that's
(42:55):
the focus, but then it alsomatriculates onto other
relationships as well.
I mean this is a completechange.
And then I love that the R isat the end for readiness,
because it's like a buildup,like you do S-O-V-E-R, and then
you're ready to go.
So it's like an exciting, likeI am ready to go do this, to
walk into my new life, to walkinto like a new dating, love,
(43:16):
relationship world, and I'mequipped.
So I thank you so much forbeing here.
I'm definitely going to haveyou back on to talk more and I
will put everything that she hadjust spoken about Louis had
just spoken about website, herfree download in the show notes.
So, please, I encouragelisteners to visit and to grab
that workbook.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, thank you Love this.
Thank you so much, jessica, forallowing me the opportunity to
be your guest on Sober.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Living Stories.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for being here, louie, it was great.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Love it To view our featured author of the month or
to become a guest yourself,visit wwwjessicastepanoviccom.
If you are single and sober and ever wonder if a
thriving love relationship iseven possible, you're going to
love.
To meet my next guest.
Her name is Louie Bischoff.
She's the founder of the SoberRelationship Blueprint, which
offers online dating andrelationship coaching for single
people who are sober from drugs, alcohol, food, gambling and
sex addiction.
In 2009, she had a 20-yearmarriage that came to an end.
(00:24):
She used alcohol to cope withthe sadness, grief and
depression.
She grew up in a domesticallyviolent household where any type
of feeling of emotion, whetherpositive or negative, was met
with shame, anger and violence.
So turning to alcohol at theend of her own relationship
seemed like an easy way to numbout through this challenging
time.
Her divorce was finalized in2010, when her sons were six and
(00:48):
eight years old.
Then, in July 2012, louierealized that alcohol was ruling
her life and that she wasneglecting her kids, then eight
and 10.
By doing personal growth withprofessionals, other people in
recovery, and by continuing toput herself out there in the
dating environment, she beganpulling all her notes, thoughts
and ideas together and came upwith the framework of what is
(01:11):
now known as the SoberRelationship Blueprint.
Today she's a successfulentrepreneur, a great mother to
her young adult sons and anadvocate for sober living.
So tune in for her personalstory.
(01:35):
Welcome to the Sober LivingStories podcast.
This podcast is dedicated tosharing stories of sobriety.
We shine a spotlight onindividuals who have faced the
challenges of alcoholism andaddiction and are today living
out their best lives sober.
Each guest has experiencedincredible transformation and
are here to share their storywith you.
I'm Jessica Stepanovic, yourhost.
Join me each week as guestsfrom all walks of life share
(01:58):
their stories to inspire andprovide hope to those who need
it most.
(02:20):
Hi and welcome to anotherepisode of the Sober Living
Stories podcast.
Meet Louis Bischoff.
She's the founder of the SoberRelationship Blueprint, which
offers online dating andrelationship coaching for single
people who are sober from drugs, alcohol, food, gambling and
sex addiction.
She's going to share herpersonal story.
(02:40):
I'm excited about this forlisteners because this is the
first time we've had someone onthat talks about relationships
which are really in questionwhen you become sober, because
sober is such a Drinking I'msorry is such a social.
This is how we get started inrelationships, so you're going
(03:00):
to bring another perspective.
I'm so excited to hear yourpersonal story.
So welcome to the show, louie.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's such a joy to be here andsuch a pleasure to be your guest
, and thank you for theopportunity and the invitation
to be able to be here and alsoshare my story, but also be able
to help other people too.
That's certainly what I'verecognized that the more that
I'm able to share more things,the more that people are like me
(03:30):
too, me too, me too.
So it's just a wonderful placeto be.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Thank, you again for the opportunity.
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, if you could juststart from your.
You know we want to hear yourpersonal story and then lead us
all the way up to how you got todo it, with what you're doing
today to serve other people inthis area.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, great, great question.
You know I, as you mentionedand thank you for the intro on
that as well as you mentioned,I'm the founder of the Sober
Relationship Blueprint and theSober Relationship Blueprint and
that's where I'll end up also.
But the Sober RelationshipBlueprint is set up specifically
in five different modules usingthe word sober, s-o-b-e-r, and
each one of the letters of theword sober is an area of
(04:11):
learning and I got to thoseareas of learning my own
experience of being single andsober after my marriage ended,
sober after my marriage ended.
So a little bit about my storyis I didn't drink alcoholically
for very long.
(04:32):
I drank regularly as a gentleman, as they say, so to speak, as
the book says, as the big booksays.
Why can't he learn how to drinklike a gentleman?
Well, I guess I was a gentlelady.
But the aspect about that isthat I could see the end of my
marriage coming down the road,so to speak, and that's when I
(04:52):
started drinking alcoholically.
So it was about for three yearsand I'm not minimizing my
experience at all and it's not acompetition, but that's just my
story and the reason why that Iwas drinking alcoholically for
me.
I mean, I know that I'm analcoholic, but the reason why is
because I was in the painbecause I, my marriage, was
(05:16):
ending.
I was in my marriage, myrelationship with my former
husband, for almost 20 years andI conceded that it was coming
and I didn't have as, as theword is said is a maladaptive
coping skill right coping toolwas using alcohol to ease, to
numb out, to ease the pain andthe grief and the just the loss
(05:40):
of the relationship ending.
And, for the record, I was theone who ended my marriage.
It just ended.
It wasn't because of mydrinking, it wasn't because of
other people, it wasn't becauseof money, it was because we just
got to that point where it justwasn't getting better and it
just kept not getting better.
(06:01):
So I just was, like I said, sadand that was the tool that I
was using At that time when Iended the marriage.
When the marriage ended, it wasactually now a long time ago,
in 2010.
My sons were six and eight and,as I said, I was drinking
alcoholically.
I continued to drinkalcoholically after the divorce
(06:23):
into early divorce time andfinally walked into, for me, the
12 steps of work.
I know that's not for everyone,but for me that's what I did
and it was in 2012.
And at the time my kids were 8and 10.
So that's a little bit aboutjust kind of the super surface
(06:44):
level regarding my drinking andwhat it looked like.
But let me just kind of fill ina little bit of a backstory I
grew up in.
I'm the oldest of three kids.
My parents were self-employedso they were very attentive to
building the business and I grewup in a domestic violence
household.
(07:04):
So there was constant, ofcourse, constant violence, but
also constant instability, nocertainty, because a combination
, like I said, because they wereself-employed and building a
business.
So there was a lot.
Work was number one.
Value work was number two.
Value work was number three.
Value work was number one.
(07:25):
Value work was number two.
Value work was number three.
Value work was number fourvalue and the aspect around
family didn't come to like maybenumber 100 in the values that I
saw.
So, without having thedirection of learning about
comfort or learning aboutfeelings, or learning about
safety or seeing boundariesrespected, not any of those
(07:49):
things.
And in my household we werepunished for having any kind of
feelings.
So I had no feelings.
So it wasn't just like badfeelings, like you'd be crying
in the proverbial oh, why areyou crying?
I'll give you something to cryabout.
It was also like, oh, I got alittle gold star on my spelling
bee.
Like, well, who do you thinkyou are?
You think you're someonespecial?
(08:10):
I'm like, oh, I guess not.
So as I became more of an adultand um, came into like, uh,
being a teenager in high school,I didn't know boundaries, I
didn't know, I just saw tons ofcaretaking.
I was a huge caretaker in thefamily because my parents were
(08:32):
working building their business,so I was taking care of my
brothers.
I got rewarded like, oh, thankyou so much for helping.
Good job, having to try andcaretake around the violence,
trying to minimize, trying tointerfere, take the violence for
myself versus my youngerbrothers.
So as I came into teendom,those aspects about being a
(08:52):
people pleaser, trying toeliminate strife, working as
hard as I could to controlsituations just continued to, I
mean, get strengthened.
And that's how I started to showup as an adult and just not
knowing how to have boundariesbeing involved with
(09:14):
relationships, sexualrelationships, simultaneously
being in a committedrelationship but having side
relationships because, again,I'm not saying like it was a bad
, I'm a bad person I just didn'tknow how to have boundaries.
I felt like I had no worth.
I was always seeking theexternal validation because
(09:36):
internally I didn't have anyworth, I didn't have any
validation and that pattern ismy pattern for life, until now.
So when I started, you know,just a few minutes ago,
communicating and sharing withyou about like, oh, I didn't
drink alcoholically for verylong, that is true.
But the pattern of not being ahealthy, mature adult is where I
(10:04):
went through and how I wentthrough all of my adult life,
from early teendom, from 13,right From 13 until 43, when I
walked into AA and it was in the12 steps and again, it just
worked for me.
But it was the aspect aboutstarting to show up and learn
(10:24):
how to be a better mother, howto be a better sister, how to be
a better worker, how to be abetter leader, how to be a
better daughter.
I had to learn those things.
I thought I knew them, but Ihad to learn those things.
And then just being single anddating and then just develop the
(10:47):
sober relationship blueprintand being able to be out there
helping people to learn how todate sober, be single and sober
and have relationships.
So it's a little bit of mystory.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, very good.
Yeah, when you were speaking, Ithought of the, the, the phrase
.
You know, health attractshealth.
So if that's true, thenunhealthy attracts unhealthy.
So you know, having that periodof time where you know you
weren't and having siderelationships and just not
knowing.
You know and and I think thatmight be true for a lot of
(11:19):
people you know, as we come intoour adulthood or our twenties
and thirties there, my twentieswere you know navigation of like
into our adulthood, or ourtwenties and thirties they're my
twenties were you knownavigation of like.
Where did I go, like who youknow?
And then when we come intolater thirties, twenties and
thirties, we start, we startlooking internally and I think
what's what's really good aboutwhat you said?
I know, um, not everybody isfor the 12 steps, but I know
(11:40):
that that that program structurereally takes everybody out of
the picture.
Like the blame game is over andwe're just looking at, like
being responsible for who we are, which is the good news, you
know, because we can only changeourselves, which is essentially
what you did.
And you know, socializing in adrinking world is a lot easier,
(12:03):
right, especially with mattersof the heart, because it kind of
gives you that liquid courageto just go out and be, but I
think, in sobriety, if you dostruggle with the isms and the
alcoholism, in sobriety, wow,those relationships really can
be powerful, meaningful andreally long lasting.
So thank you for sharing yourpersonal story, but what would
(12:27):
be some advice to give to likestep out there in in a way that
you know you still maintainyourself, do the work first and
then step out, um, or just kindof like learn who you are?
Like, how do you do that If, ifyou're, you're just getting
sober?
How'd you do it?
Oh, I love the loaded, it's aloaded question.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, oh, it's just super easy.
No, it's not easy.
Great question.
So what I heard you ask isbasically how do you get started
?
The adult world is very focused,as we know, as you mentioned,
focused on alcohol.
And how do I start to get outthere and have relationships and
what does it look like?
And I appreciate what you saidearlier.
(13:13):
Right is that healthy attractshealthy and vice versa.
You know, I use the phrasingalso water attracts, water seeks
its own level.
So when I'm at a low waterlevel, right, I'm going to be
seeking more low water aspectslevel.
So when I'm at a low waterlevel, right, I'm going to be
seeking more low water aspects,and when I'm at a higher water
level, I'm going to be lookingfor that higher water direction
too.
So it is true, and that's beenmy experience.
(13:34):
So, how to get started?
Um, you know, that's a reallygreat question.
I've worked with a lot ofpeople and where I find the
stumbling block is and it takestime and we work together is the
concept of.
I'll say it this way I alwaysstart off when I'm working with
(13:55):
my clients of saying that lifeis a documentary, it's not a
Disney movie.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And so what?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I mean by that is that so much of our concepts
it's not, it's just informationso much of our concepts around
relationships and romanticrelationships I'll speak to
directly are conceived from aDisney thought process of a fall
in love happily ever after, ofa fall in love happily ever
(14:23):
after.
There is one person, this kindof fantasy thinking, and when I
work with people, I beginworking with people.
As I said, I start with thatlittle snippet, that little
phrase about right Life is adocumentary movie, not a Disney
movie, and let's sit down andunpack that a little bit.
(14:43):
And when?
My experience is is that itactually is.
Yes, and so, yes, keep workingon yourself.
Yes, keep doing the things thatyou need to be doing, whether
it's working with professionals,whether it's working with a
sober coach, whether it's doing12 step recovery, whether it's
whatever it is that you're doingfor yourself, to grow yourself
(15:04):
and be able to start movingforward.
For me, when I started dating, Iwas not dating at all, and this
is what I say is I was notdating to get into a
relationship.
I was dating to see if I couldbegin to change my behavior.
(15:24):
I could begin to change mybehavior If, if somebody, if the
man that I'm.
I'm a heterosexual female.
If the man that I was on a datewith wanted to see me again but
I didn't like him and I wasn'tinterested, did I have enough
self-esteem?
Did I have enough self-esteem?
Did I have enoughself-confidence?
(15:45):
Did I have enough courage tosay thank you?
I appreciate you saying that,but this is not a fit for me
because, as I mentioned about inmy story, like I'm a, I was
groomed to be a people pleaser.
Right, because there was, therewas a direct effect if things
(16:07):
were amiss at the house growingup.
So what are these things that Ican do?
Well, it's okay, I'm unhappy, Ijust need to make sure the
house is okay, or the kitchen'scleaned up so that I don't get
beat up, or my mom doesn't getbeat up, or my brothers don't
get there, so there's morecomfort or stability or safety,
and so, okay.
(16:27):
So many times, so many times, Ican't even write my.
It was like oh, my college daysor after whatever, like oh, I
really like you, louie, I reallylike you, but I'm like I don't
really like him, but okay, helikes me, okay, oh.
So I go out on a date andsomebody says, oh, can I give
you a kiss, I'm like I don'tlike him, I don't want him to
(16:49):
kiss me, like that does notsound appealing.
Like no that's not going to becomfortable for me.
Wait, what Like?
Who said that I mean I could,but I couldn't, and that's how I
started dating.
Jessica was just being able topractice.
Yeah, like an experiment.
My own data point, one socialexperiment.
(17:12):
Okay, how about this?
Okay, how about this?
So when I work with my clients,there's only one thing I say is
do you want to only go on onemore date with this person?
That's all Not.
Do I want to get in arelationship?
Not do I want to have kids?
(17:33):
Not do I want to like.
Is this person going to supportmy recovery?
None of that, because that'sall fantasy thinking and it
takes me out of being present.
So when I'm in that position ofbeing able to sit in that seat
on the date or go walking or gofor, you know, bike riding,
whatever that date looks like,I'm only looking at it with the
(17:56):
filter of do I want to talk tothis person one more time?
And the answer is no, that'stotally fine, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
And that's okay.
Yes, yeah, and I love youbrought up the word self-esteem
and I think in getting soberit's a rebuild.
For sure, from whateverbackground you come from, it's a
definite rebuild and with anincrease in self-esteem also
comes an increase inself-respect.
But I love what you're sayingbecause it's a small step, it's
(18:29):
like a practice and it's keepingit on you and what you view as
being okay to go further andthen having the courage to voice
that and to see the responseand like, regardless of what it
is, be okay with it, and thenkind of come back and talk to
your people and try and do itagain, because that's ultimately
like how you rebuild and startto change, right.
(18:52):
So that's essentially howyou're doing this coaching, I
would imagine, and you did ityourself.
You built it out ofself-experience, yeah.
So talk a little bit about theimportance of self-esteem and
how it correlates withself-respect in the early days
of getting back out there andbeing sober.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah.
So love that, love, love, lovethat.
So the question is rightbasically, what's the importance
of self-esteem?
Well, I'm just going to talkabout sober relationship
blueprint for one second,because sober relationship
blueprint, as I mentioned, eachletter of the word sober is an
area of learning and it's notaccidental on the way that the
(19:37):
letters are arranged or, excuseme, the words in the letters.
So the S is for self-esteem andthe O is for openness, the B's
for boundaries, the E isevolving into other intimacies
beyond sexual intimacy, and thenthe R is for readiness.
So when I set up the like yousaid, exactly, it was from my
own, all my own experience.
(19:58):
When I set up the soberrelationship blueprint, I knew
the S had to be aroundself-esteem, because I can't go
forward with anything elsewithout building up that
confidence, the self-esteem,that belief, even if it's a
little tiny, baby belief that Iam enough and that I'm worthy.
And then the O is about beingopen to new things.
(20:21):
Like, oh, I only date this typeof guy, I only have this type
of girlfriend.
Yeah, but what if you don't?
What if it's as you said, it'sa rebuild, let's be open.
And then creating thoseboundaries with the B.
So the reason why I wanted tosay that and getting back to
your question is because for me,and what you said, is that it
(20:44):
does have to start withself-esteem.
But it's not just wave of magicwand.
And now you have self-esteem,because in my experience and my
understanding is that it all isinternal, sure, so I'm sharing
about, I'm looking for thatexterior right, that external
(21:04):
validation for myself, becauseinterior, internal, I don't feel
enough, I don't feel valuable,I don't feel worthy, I don't
inside.
So how do I build that up?
So, with self-worth, um, uh,when I started dating, I mean, I
had a sponsor, 12-step sponsor,and that was helping, but I
(21:26):
didn't have a dating coach.
So when I work with my clients,right, we're specifically
targeting on these things.
So working together with mindsetof of the iams, or affirmations
like I am worthy, I am valuable, even though that sounds silly,
but it's actually reallyvaluable to continue to change
(21:47):
the, the thought process, theneuro, the neuro processes and,
in my experience, havingself-worth, having
self-confidence, havingself-esteem allows me to begin
to sit still and listen toreally what I really want, what
(22:10):
I really need.
What does that look like?
How do I verbalize my wants andneeds and my boundaries and
keep those boundaries.
Like early on when I starteddating, I would like, oh, I've
got a boundary.
Like I was just sharing.
Like, oh, somebody wanted tokiss me and I didn't want to
kiss him.
Okay, I don't want to kiss you,and there's my boundary.
And then 30 seconds later I'mlike boundary with boundary.
(22:31):
Like here's me making out withthe person in the parking lot
because I verbalized it but Ididn't keep the boundary Right.
So these are all my ownpersonal growth.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Wrong with me.
I'm not a bad person.
These are just the things I hadto learn and that I recognize.
Other people need to learn tooif they want to.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Sure, yeah, it makes me think about, I remember early
on, because we talk a lot about, you know, self-evolvement, but
then too, I think, what goeshand in hand with growing
internally and spiritually orotherwise, you have a value on
how the other person feels aswell.
(23:16):
So, whereas before you talkedabout kissing someone you really
didn't want to kiss, so thereyou're giving them the false
hope that there's somethingthat's going to happen in the
future or there's a relationshipthat's going to come from this,
when internally you know that'snot going to happen and at some
point you have enough selfworth upon yourself but you also
(23:38):
have enough, um, like respectfor other people to not do that
anymore, to not let somebodyhang on where you know you don't
give false hope because that'snot what you're about, you know.
So it's not only like a respectfor you and to end it when it's
supposed to be ended, but italso allows the other person to
move on, to be in the truth ofwhere you're really at, so that
(24:00):
they can say, oh, okay, thenshe's not really for me and I'm
going to have to move on.
So it gives them that grace too, as you give yourself that
practice of being able.
And I think another thing thatwe could talk about, if you
don't mind, is they talk about,in early sobriety, getting
comfortable, being uncomfortable, and so when we do things
(24:22):
differently, like if you say,yeah, I had a great time, but
yeah, I don't want to do thisagain for next time, that may be
severely uncomfortable forpeople to voice their truth,
right, and but what, what comes?
Tell us what happens on theother side.
If you really allow yourself tobe uncomfortable, to hear
(24:43):
yourself say that and to be like, oh my God, was that me, did I
say that?
But when you get home, how doesthat feel if it's the truth?
Because the truth is hard, youknow, but it's necessary if you
want to get healthy.
So what's it like when you gethome after speaking your mind
and you know it's a success,right mind?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
and you know it's a.
It's a success right, yeah, it.
Well, you know like over time,the perception becomes that it's
a success right, but, as you'resaying in the moment, because
it's a different behavior itfeels really uncomfortable.
Sure.
What you were just saying,jessica, reminds me of what one
of the Brene Brown sayings right, clear is kind.
And when I'm working with myclients and even for myself, I
(25:29):
just hold on to those threewords because clear is kind For
me, this alcoholic, this addict,this person over here who's
been in active addiction before.
This person knows how to lie.
I know how to live a doublelife, I know what that looked
like.
I know the, the lying, themanipulation, the, the way that
(25:54):
I just moved through my life byhaving the double life all the
time, the amount of energy ittook to do all those things.
Right, right, to do the lies,to live the lies, to say the
lies, to do the manipulation, todo all the hiding.
And so clear is kind and asI've gotten more sober, is that
(26:17):
I move away from the lying, fromthe deception and, like you're
saying, leading people on.
Now I can recognize that.
You know, when I'mcommunicating with someone, when
I'm going on a date withsomeone, or when I'm even
working with someone or a client, I can recognize that that
exterior thing, that person, istriggering my addict or
(26:39):
triggering the codependent, ortriggering that intensity that I
used to seek out at being inactive addiction, and now I can
recognize that.
So back, going back to what youwere saying regarding being
comfortable with beinguncomfortable because it's all
new, right, as you were saying,is that getting sober is having
(27:02):
to rebuild.
Having to rebuild and becausethe previous Louis or the
previous anybody right, this iswhat I'm used to, or I'm used to
the chaos, or I'm used to thecodependency, I'm used to
sleeping with people.
This is my pattern, that I'mused to.
But I want to change thepattern.
And the only way I can changeyour pattern right If nothing
(27:24):
changes, nothing changes.
The only way I can change thepattern right If nothing changes
, nothing changes.
The only way I can change is isthat I change it and in my
experience, having other peoplearound me or me being of support
to other people reallycontinues to fortify that change
and that discomfort.
(27:44):
I remember a couple of years agothat when I was going on lots
of first dates and I was in arecovery meeting and I was
saying, and I sat there and itwas my turn to share and I said
you guys, if I did not know thatI'm doing the right thing by
going on so many first dates, Iwould think that I'm doing the
(28:05):
wrong thing.
Like what's wrong with me.
I keep going on first datesLike why can't I, you know, find
some?
Or like what's wrong, why don'tyou know?
Just kind of like that, mentalgymnastics, what's not helping
me.
But knowing like going onmultiple first dates is actually
positive because it'seliminating what I don't want.
(28:26):
But it's uncomfortable, likeyou're saying, and continuing to
be in the discomfort, and then,as you said, when I get home,
I'm like, oh wow, cool, I didthat.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Who knew.
That's great.
And I think a lot aboutpercentages when I think of
early sobriety and matters ofthe heart, right, because we
tend to.
You know, if you're in arelationship where you have an
interest, it takes up a lot ofyour mind space and it takes up
(28:57):
a lot of you know your day andit's like an 80-20,.
You know 80% the relationship,20% of what we're supposed to be
doing, you know, and when wekeep it on ourselves which is
essentially what you're talkingabout, is it really can shift
that to 80-20, like where 20 canbe the relationship and 80 can
(29:19):
be on how we're reacting to it,or you know how we're fitting it
into our life instead of makingit our entire life.
And I think that's so importantbecause it's like you talked
about the mental gymnastics andlike it's a.
It's a big energy drain and alot of exhaustion to live the
previous Jessica or the previousLouie right.
(29:41):
It's just a lot of um, figuringout stuff that we don't have to
, being responsible for peoplewe don't have to be responsible
for and their feelings andactions and such.
And when we write ourselves, itgives us that energy back to
kind of just be us and to focuson what we're supposed to be
(30:01):
focusing on, but then to kind ofgive that 20% like yeah, we're
going to go out there again, orsure, I'd like to go out again,
but it's not going to beconsuming your life, because
you're like rebuildinginternally yourself.
You know, and it's not abouteverybody and everyone else's
feelings, which you know go withpeople pleasing and a lot of
the isms that come with being analcoholic actively or growing
(30:25):
up in an environment that wasn'tquite healthy.
So, wow, there's a lot, a lotof good there.
It's it's like balances it outalmost.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, thank you, and just wanted to touch back on um.
I know that uh, uh, you and Imay have, you know, some time
under our belts for being soberand I don't want to have your
listeners think like this iseasy.
I just can only speak for my ownjourney, like it's still one
day at a time and I don't meanone day at a time that I'm not
(30:59):
going to pick up alcohol ordrink or do other things I don't
need to be doing.
It's one day at a time of justmoving through today and just
life, just for me, and so earlyin sobriety and getting back
into that aspect around socialalcohol and what that looks like
is being able to like, forexample, work with me or work
(31:22):
with someone, or even with asponsor or a guide or a mentor,
having someone on your side, inyour corner, that can guide you
through these new things, rightThrough that discomfort, through
the like, how do I?
Do I put this on my datingprofile that I don't drink?
Do I put on my dating profile,like, how do I do I tell them
right away?
And you know, one of the thingsthe biggest thing I've learned
(31:44):
is that people have to earn theright to hear my story and so
that I it's not this false senseof vulnerability when I go out
on date.
Number one of like let me tellyou all about this trauma it's
that they have to earn the right.
I didn't know that Cause Ididn't have any belief that I
had boundaries and and had words.
(32:05):
So I just am like let me tellyou about all the trauma versus
someone has to earn the right tobe able to hear my story.
So when I'm present in my date,that first date, the second,
whatever that looks like.
But I'm building up thatself-esteem.
I'm sitting in my discomfort,I'm being present and observing
(32:27):
myself like, oh, my date's notasking me any questions.
Oh, that person's a jerk, okay,but how come, when the person's
not asking you any questions,what is that about you?
Oh, the person's not asking mequestions.
I feel not enough.
I feel not worthy that theywant to know about me.
Okay, let's unpack that alittle bit versus oh, that guy
(32:51):
was a jerk, or that person was ajerk, or that woman was just
like she couldn't get right.
I don't care about the otherperson on the other side of the
table from you, I care about you.
And being able to be in thatspace early in sobriety or
middle sobriety or long-termsobriety it's all not easy.
That's just been my yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
I love that I, the um , you know, whatever you, it's
the right to hear my story andbecause a lot of times I know,
if I come, come across uh, somegirls or otherwise, and myself
too, you know, I used to just,you know, say it all in one in
the first 15, you know, and thenyou hear other people do that
(33:31):
and say, oh, wow, that was a lotof information to give someone
they don't even know.
You know, and to guard that.
And I think that's another stepin self-respect also
self-restraint, listening andjust self-esteem, where you know
we're not any more likeconnecting through, like
(33:51):
woundology, you know, like we'renot anymore connecting through
woundology, we're not connectingour wounds, right, I think that
was like Carolyn Miss orsomething.
Anyway, it's just like that'snot where we're living anymore.
We're just I'm listening to you, we're presentensing it right,
and so you're starting new andyou're building a new life and
you don't have to connectthrough your you know
(34:12):
hostilities and your survivalkit and your like past mistakes,
but you connecting in health,in a sense.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, exactly, and being able to.
Again, I can't control theother person, right, I can only
control myself.
But I can say like, okay, I'mgoing to have boundaries around
this, I'm going to.
I just can only speak formyself and say, like when I was
in those positions, and then I'mlike oversharing.
(34:42):
Right, the easy word isoversharing.
I'm oversharing all this stuffbecause I have this false belief
and false, but I thought it wasreal but because I have this
false sense of vulnerability andconnection.
The next thing that I know andthat's not a value statement or
it's not a judgment but with thenext thing, I know that I'm in
(35:04):
their bedroom and doing adultthings and and you know, I just
met him two hours earlier.
Again, not a judgment, not avalue statement, I'm just saying
like, for me, I did that overand over and over again because
I felt that there was someattention, I had some value,
there was some connection.
(35:24):
Yes, I mean, now I don't lookfor that connection and other
people's bedrooms or otherpeople's beds.
I look for that connection,that that depth of connection
with other people, like inrecovery or in the rooms, or
with the people that I work with.
That there's where I buildconnection, and those are much
deeper connections than what Ibelieve they look like.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yes, yes, and that reminds me of a someone I had
met once.
She was, she was a great girland I remember she was very just
new to dating and she went outwith someone at night and she
had slept with him the firstnight and I remember her coming
over the next day and she said,gosh, he hasn't called, he
(36:08):
hasn't called.
And then the next day, hehasn't called, he hasn't called.
And I remember saying to herwell, he doesn't have to like
cause it already had happened.
And she was like, wow, you know, like she gave her self away
that night, you know, and it waslike her first little piece of
awareness that, wow, this is a,this can be a slow build.
(36:34):
Like this isn't like you know,old me first time, right, like
she was just putting it together, like, wow, he didn't have to
call me back.
You know like when you say youearn the right to hear my
personal story, you also earnthe right to be in an intimate
situation with me.
You know which a lot of peoplemaybe didn't come to the table
(36:54):
with knowing right, and sothat's a learning curve for and
just another thing withself-respect and boundaries and
self-esteem, you know what feelsbetter.
You know, and yeah, it's reallyall great information so far.
I just I really value havingyou on here talking about this
(37:15):
like candidly and and that'swhat I love about this podcast A
lot of times we talk aboutthings that people just don't
talk about.
You know, out of closed, inside,closed doors and, um, this is
definitely an area that you knowas human beings.
You know that as human beings,we're meant to be in a
(37:37):
relationship and we're meant tobe next to someone, right, and I
know, for me, I was like a loneperson for a while.
I was self-sufficient to theutmost degree, and I remember my
brother saying to me you'relike a truck that has that beep,
beep, beep.
You just back it up when itgets too close, right, or like a
dog, he's eating out of hisbowl and another dog comes up
and he's like, you know, he'sjust like he's upset, he's like
(37:59):
get out of here, you know.
And he said, hey, we are meantto be in relation with people,
you know, because I think hewanted that for me and it was
just so unattainable because Iwas so stuck in my anger or
whatever, because I was just soraw, you know, in my
relationship with myself and myrelationship with the world at
that time.
And that's changed and it'sbeen a big gift, you know, and
(38:22):
he was right, and so I think youbring that to the table.
You give people the opportunityto grow relationships sober.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
So could you?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
tell us to grow relationships sober.
So could you tell us you know alittle bit more about what you
do and how you help individuals,and at what stage they have to
be to contact you?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, I love that.
Thank you so much.
You know, the SoberRelationship Blueprint is the
company that I founded and isdirected at helping people
create healthy, sober loverelationships and the focus is
on love relationships andromantic relationships.
But it's actually allrelationships, right, Because as
(39:02):
I start to build, like you weretalking earlier about
self-worth or self-confidence,right, as I start to have a
better relationship with myself,all of my relationships start
to get better my romanticrelationships, family, all of
those work relationships theyget better.
So Sober Relationship Blueprinthelps single people in recovery
(39:24):
from addictions, whether it'sbehavior addictions or chemical
addiction, able to start tobuild those healthy, sober love
relationships.
And I wanted just to touch realquickly two quick things.
As I mentioned before, is thateach letter of the word sober is
an area of learning, right?
So the S is self-esteem, the Ois openness, b is boundaries, e
(39:46):
is evolving into otherintimacies besides sexual
intimacy, and then the R is forreadiness.
So one of the things you werejust talking about earlier
regarding, you know, the womanthat you knew who became
sexually intimate with someone,is that I was that person all
the time, all the time Because Ididn't know, I didn't know
(40:07):
there were other intimacies thatI could build with people, not
just romantic partners, butother intimacies.
The E in sober is being able toevolve into other intimacies so
that I can learn how to beemotionally intimate with
someone.
I can learn how to beintellectually intimate with
someone.
I can learn how to bespiritually intimate, and it
(40:28):
doesn't have to be my romanticpartner, it's just for me having
to learn about those otherintimacies.
And then the R for readiness isbeing able to be ready to go
out and do those things.
You know have a sober datingplan.
I work with people all the timeon creating that sober dating
plan working on the profiles forthe dating apps, making sure
(40:49):
that it's the right balance oflanguage to protect you as a
person out there dating and tobe able to be open to other new
things as well.
So sober relationship blueprintis set up for that is to help
single people in sobriety fromchemicals or for behavior.
And you asked like where dothey have to be?
(41:11):
Um, I can't.
I would say optimally this isnot a hard fast optimally, as
the phrasing goes to be soberfor at least a year, because
being able to start to do thatrebuild um out of old behaviors,
but I I can't mandatory,mandatorily make somebody be
sober for a year or more in theprogram, but that's optimally
(41:33):
where somebody is going to be,because they're going to get
more out of it.
And I have a free download.
It's five quick tips forhealthy, sober love relationship
.
It's on my website, soberrelationship blueprint one
wordcom, so it's a pop and it'seasy to find.
It'll just be a pop up.
Put your name, email address intheir phone number, click it.
(41:57):
You'll get the email with thedownload.
It's really great, you know.
One of the things you mentionedearlier was about listening.
Yeah, listening is one of thefive quick tips to build a
healthy, sober love relationship.
I need to learn how to listenwith discernment to become
better.
So you know just differentthings like that, and I love
(42:17):
doing what I do because I seethe results immediately and
having people men and women beable to start to learn more
about themselves and learn howto have healthy, sober love
relationships using the soberrelationship blueprint that I've
created.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, and you back it with life experience and when
you've walked through ityourself, who better to teach
that?
I also.
There's two things that stuckout to me as we close.
You do say love relationshipson your website and that really
caught my eye because you canstart, because it's like that's
(42:55):
the focus, but then it alsomatriculates onto other
relationships as well.
I mean this is a completechange.
And then I love that the R isat the end for readiness,
because it's like a buildup,like you do S-O-V-E-R, and then
you're ready to go.
So it's like an exciting, likeI am ready to go do this, to
walk into my new life, to walkinto like a new dating, love,
(43:16):
relationship world, and I'mequipped.
So I thank you so much forbeing here.
I'm definitely going to haveyou back on to talk more and I
will put everything that she hadjust spoken about Louis had
just spoken about website, herfree download in the show notes.
So, please, I encouragelisteners to visit and to grab
that workbook.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, thank you Love this.
Thank you so much, jessica, forallowing me the opportunity to
be your guest on Sober.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Living Stories.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for being here, louie, it was great.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Love it To view our featured author of the month or
to become a guest yourself,visit wwwjessicastepanoviccom.
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