Tales of Recovery: Finding Balance, Healing and Hope in Sobriety

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I did move my mic out of the way.
Oh, here we go, I did.
I was talking while it wascounting.
That's not good.
I did move my mic out of theway, so it's not like right in
my, in my face all the time.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
I like it.
Well, speaking of in your face,let's play the new season two
theme song before we have ourconversation today.
Yeah, man, all right, let's doit.
Yeah, I like this.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
I think that was enough.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
I love it.
I want to be on the same page.
I'm gonna be on the same page.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
I think that's a good one.
I think that's a good one.
I like the song.
That's a good song.
I love how you listen to thatall day, man.
It's revving me up.
Let's go, I know.
Kind of makes me feel like youknow, like the the bright side
of a Monday morning.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
You know you're driving into work and you're
like I don't really want to bedoing this, but then you hear
that song and you're like, allright, I don't think.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
I could fucking do this, or at least yeah, it makes
me feel like just put your headdown and kick some ass, and who
cares?
Yeah, fuck it, I like it.
Well, you know what came to theconclusion that we are getting
in our own way.
So we're just gonna have a noholds bar, totally authentic
conversation to bring aboutseason two, because you and I
just really wanna get back atthis.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
So I just wanna say this to all our listeners we're
back.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Holy shit, we're back and we have no idea what the
fuck we're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Not at all Same as the first, but that's the way it
should be, and we have somereason why that should be that
way, for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, dude, in all seriousness, I have missed you.
To our listeners, we haveactually not been in
communication on a regular basis.
Eric has had his life going onand I've had my life going on.
There has been a huge gap oftime between last episode and
this episode.
I wanna say shit, man.
When was the last episode aired?

(02:26):
End of season one.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
I think what was it the like around May, mid May,
somewhere in there, right, andit is now.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
November 10th.
Yeah, We've chit-chatted hereand there and we've had some
business meetings about the showhere and there, but we really
needed the break.
I think At least I know I did,and I think we really needed to
or at least I needed toimplement some practices that I
was preaching about, but it wasnot implementing.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, absolutely, and I mean there's some things that
I will share in this episode,but the bottom line is we are
two drunks trying to make it inthe world and we're being
authentic, and the authenticitypart for us was the break.
We needed that break and weneeded to go do our own shit for

(03:16):
a while and we needed tonavigate through some stuff, and
individually as well ascollectively, and I think it was
all good.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I do too, man, I really do.
I had to go to some deep, darkplaces of the corners of my mind
and then come back from it, andI'm still on the uptick right
now, which gives me the capacityto get back and to give back.
But shameless baby.
There were some fucked up timesduring the last what is that?

(03:50):
Six months?
May, june, july, august,september, october, november.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Seven months, I counted on my fingers everybody.
And thank God he's got all hisfingers, so it worked.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
I do, I do See, this is the gratitude list I'm
starting right now.
I have all 10 fingers.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
I have all my fingers .

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well listen, I'm sorry, dude, Don't you have a
mechanical arm right now?
I do.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
I do.
Speaking of things that you gothrough in the last seven months
, september 2nd I tore my biceptendon from the elbow and it
just rolled right up my arm andI had a surgery and they had to
repair it.
And I've been in PT I amactually in so one thing I

(04:43):
learned about it was the date ofthe surgery and the date of the
protocol.
Beginnings of PT are thecounting is different.
So when we started counting soI was when I started PT I was
three weeks out of surgery, butPT counted it as protocol week

(05:04):
number two.
So basically what that means toall our listeners that might be
following along, who probablyhave had orthopedic stuff going
on and totally understand this,the thought was that that week,
the week of from the surgery towhen you first get checked, does

(05:24):
not count, because it's that'sthe anything goes week.
Anything could happen comingout of surgery, type of thing.
But then the surgeon checks youout and said, okay, we're
starting to count from here andthen you'll start your protocol
in two weeks.
So, anyway, that's it's been.
Have you ever, like, hadsomething happen to you where

(05:47):
everybody's going, oh man, wow,that had to hurt or whatever,
and you're going no, it didn'thurt that much and honestly, I'm
completely fucking intrigued bythis whole thing.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
How is this all going to work?
Well, I mean tell me whathappened.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
So I was hiking with a friend and we were and, by the
way, it was basically an uphillhike.
That was the only hard part ofit.
It was, at that point, had beenup to that point, had been
super simple, but it was a goodkind of cardio type of hike.
A tree had fallen over the pathso we had to climb over the
tree.
So I found the lowest part toclimb over, so we started

(06:27):
climbing over.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
I was talking about, like those big red, like a
redwood tree, because thosetrunks are gigantic, like a big
tree base or what.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
It was a fairly no, it wasn't huge like that, but it
was mid middle of the road.
I mean we don't have anythingout here, that's that big.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
I'm a California kid, born and raised, so the
redwoods is what came to mind.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
The obstacles holy crap, yeah, we don't have those,
but we had big trees, but itwas a good medium size trunk,
got it, and so I found theeasiest way to go over.
I thought, and we get up onthere and I start to lose my
balance.
So I grabbed for a branch thatwas right above me.
I figured, oh, that'll buoy me,I'll be fine.
I still kept going.

(07:09):
I went down, I held onto thebranches as I was going down it
yanked my arm and as I twistedit, just like I could feel it
River band, yeah, and it feltlike I thought I heard a little
pop, but I don't know if I didor didn't.
Initially I thought I justre-injured an old injury and

(07:31):
then it started to feel tinglyand I thought, hmm, that's not a
good sign.
And I pulled my shirt up andthere you had a little
indentation in my arm where mybicep used to be.
Wow, and the bicep was up here.
So I had this big.
It looked like I'd been workingout like massively for like In
one small section of yourforearm, exactly it looked like

(07:53):
freaky man, Just a little freakyyeah.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
It looked like you skipped forearm day yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah, more or less, more or less.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
So they um, that's wild though man, I mean that's
fucking wild and you said itdidn't even hurt for you,
because I mean, obviously theway you made it sound.
I'm sure people are cringingright now.
I mean, even I kind of want tocringe a little bit.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Ow, you know, it's when I first went down, it stung
around the elbow and but it wasfelt like similar, like an
injury I'd had before.
So I thought, oh it's, I justaggravated this old injury.
I'm fine, right, and startedwalking and it started to
subside the feeling.

(08:35):
But then I started feeling thistingling down my arm.
I thought, okay, that's odd.
When I got to the ER, so I hadanother hour and a half out.
I mean, we were half, we wereonly halfway into the hike and I
had to get out.
I mean I couldn't.
Yeah, there's no shortcut, Ihad to do it.
So we're doing the hike.
I kept the arm up close to meand we just like did it.

(08:56):
And when I got to the ER, thefirst question was, on a scale
one to 10, what's your painthreshold?
And like, yep, that's an oddquestion, cause I wasn't feeling
a lot of pain.
I said maybe a three, probablymore like a two.
And the guy stopped writing andlooked at me.
He goes what?
And I said yeah.
I said I mean, why are youasking me about pain?
Cause well, that's usually apainful injury.

(09:18):
And I said, oh, I said well,that's where I'm at.
So then when I went back there,all they did was keep asking me
that and everybody ever sincehas asked me.
You know about the pain level.
The worst pain I had was comingout of surgery.
They didn't do a nerve blockright away because they wanted
to make sure the nerve block andthe nerve still worked.
So I woke up.

(09:38):
I was in extreme pain.
They did a nerve block.
I didn't feel it.
From there I was able to manageeverything with ibuprofen and I
got through those initial fouror five days of out of surgery
and, you know, been rocking eversince.
The PT and this contraption iscoming off.
But I'm saving it for nextHalloween.
I'm just going to get a sideface and all that and become

(10:01):
like the terminator, I think you, you're ibuprofen, that you're
Superman.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
I will let that dad joke just simmer.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Well, I think what it is also, and I got to be, you
know, I got to be cautious ofthis.
I just think I have a reallyhigh pain threshold, yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
I mean what like, please don't make this a habit
every season, by the way,because last season you had your
leg stuff going on, correct?
Yeah, I had.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
yep, I did Was it shin sponsor.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
What was that last year?

Speaker 1 (10:37):
I had it.
It happened in late October.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well, that's when I felt it Because you were running
, because you went from notrunning to being Iron man.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, I added in an extra activity and I was really
pushing it, plus I was doing alot of leg work anyway because I
was trying to, you know, doharder hikes and I ended it with
a stress fracture last year.
Yeah, that was actually healingby the time I got to the doctor
, because I thought I justreally sprained my ankle and it

(11:09):
just wasn't healing.
So I finally went to the orthoand it was yep, you got a stress
fracture, but it's healing andit's healing in the right
position.
So I'm just gonna throw you ina boot for a few weeks and we'll
see where we're at.
And that was last October.
So this October I had a newadventure, not the one you drink
out of Right?

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, not Dostop.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
I just I am hoping and praying that we get to next
October, november and I don'thave to go through any of these
kind of things again and I canenjoy an outdoor autumn hike
like any normal human being.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
I mean hiking sounds dangerous.
That's what I'm gathering fromall of this Hiking and running
sound like the worst.
Everybody right now PSA don'thike, don't run.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Don't listen to Taylor, don't ask for fucking
health.
I am a clutch and that's a bigpart of the story, so no, I just
got back from Skyzone, thetrampoline place.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
They amazingly survived COVID, which I'm really
happy about.
Long story boring One of myvery first jobs at the age of, I
want to say 16, I worked at SkyHigh Sports, which was a

(12:36):
competitor of Skyzone in RanchoCordova, california, and I was a
trampoline instructor.
I taught, like an aerobicsclass, aerobics on trampolines.
But for somebody with my ADHD,high energy, it was a perfect
sport for me to get into and tokind of vent out that excess

(13:01):
energy from Thursday to Sunday 4pm to midnight.
And was that freshman,sophomore year of high school?
Wow, and it was an amazingexperience which I can.
I could go on and on and onabout that, but fast forwarding
to now.
Right, that's 16 year oldTaylor.

(13:23):
Now I am 33 year old Taylor.
I thought it would be smart.
I've jumped over the years.
It's not like I did this coldturkey after you know what?
16 years, right?
So I've jumped a little bithere and there over the years.
I still have my basic skills,but I have not jumped in quite a

(13:46):
while and I just decided to goback by myself.
And I've been spending a lot oftime recently playing so much
Halo on PC and oddly enough Iknow this might sound odd to our
listeners smoking a lot ofhookah, which is just a version

(14:14):
of tobacco and it's calledShisha, but I've been using
those two things as a crutchwhich I'll talk about more later
and I'm trying to break that up.
This is real time.
Even today I'm trying to breakit up as of last week.
I'm trying to, you know, getback to the basics and adopt

(14:39):
different things into my dailylife.
So I went like last week I wenttwice.
The first time I thought mylungs were going to pop.
The second time, not that bad,but then I took five days off
and then I went back today and Ifelt like my lungs were going
to pop again.
And oh my gosh man, thedifference between 23 and 33 and

(15:04):
33 and 16, you know it's.
I'm not getting any younger andI have to pay more attention.
I really do Like it's kind ofinteresting for me, and I know
everybody out there is like oh,33, you're still young, I am,
but at the same time I'm alsonot 23 anymore.
So you know there is that and Ihave to be more cognizant of it

(15:27):
.
So it was really good though itwas a great workout.
My lungs are kind of calmingdown now, but, holy shit, man,
just thought of having to paymore attention like and what our
brains think at.
You know, like my, my brainstill thinks I'm 16.

(15:48):
And my body is like, yeah, no,like you know, you got, you got
some bum knees now, man, andyour neck doesn't bend that way
sometimes, so careful, rightright.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Well, when I did, when I was on the podcast for RE
, I was interviewed by Odetteand you know there's that place
in there where they ask your ageand I said you know I was 58.
And she said, oh, 58, going on38.
And I bring that up because ofwhat you just said, because I
think that's part of it is I'vegot to be aware that.

(16:23):
You know, I just have to becautious in how I do things, not
that I can't do them, I justhave to be smarter about what
I'm taking on and everything I'mdoing is fine, I just have to
do it with a little bit morecaution, that's all.
Again, and saying that and eventhe doctor said it, the PT guys

(16:44):
say it all the time I could dothe same thing 100 times again
and never tear that, never tearthat bicep.
That was just a freak, freakaccident Could happen to anybody
.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
And so our bicep, similar to bones where, like you
know, they can come backstronger.
I mean, I know age plays afactor in all that too.
I'm dumb, I don't know thesethings.
I just I don't know, maybe.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
I mean I know that they told me that what happens
is where they reattached it tothe bone grows around that where
that reattachment is and ithelps strengthen it.
Nice, so I take extra calciumand but that was something I was
doing from the break last yearand you know they like, yeah, I
keep taking D3 and extra calciumalong with, you know, working

(17:32):
like they were all about megoing back to the gym as soon as
I could possibly go.
So I went back.
I was literally back in the gym, like probably week three of
out of the surgery.
Good for you, because the leftside like I don't know if you
know this and maybe listenersknow this, maybe they don't but
one of the things I found out inall this that I thought was
amazing, and my brother found it, was that there's been studies

(17:56):
Done that when people that haveinjuries to a limb, if they work
out the other side, their,their atrophy issues will be
minimal or lessened, I guess Ishould say, and also their
ability, like I found this outtoo that your brain, so there's

(18:16):
a part of your brain that workseach part of your body, so your
arm or arms, are worked by acertain part of your brain.
So and it's intricate in termsof your right arm is worked by a
certain part of your brain,your left arm is worked by a
certain part of your brain.
Well, when there is an injury,where that part of the body is
not working, that part of thebrain actually shuts down and it

(18:38):
can be atrophied as well.
So by working out on the otherside, the brain balances.
So whenever there's an overloadon one side, it'll balance over
into the other side.
So by balancing over into theright side, it's it's firing
that part of the brain andmaking it work.
And it's also firing thosemuscles like the, the synopsis

(19:02):
to the muscle, those muscles,that information to the muscles
is still working because thebrain is firing to it, which
just makes healing better.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, and I feel like I mean, it seems like an
analogy for a lot of things inlife, though as well, you know,
even relating to, like sobriety.
Why does it have to be aphysical limb?
It could be a mental limb thatwe're fucked up with right now,
that we need to heal, and I feellike what you're saying is the
only way to do that is you haveto take action, you have to do

(19:36):
something about it, becauseyou're going to the gym and
you're choosing to work out theother side and see results, and
your brain is assisting you andcompensating for it and finding
harmony.
I don't know about balance.
I always replace balance withharmony because I always think
of balance as a seesaw, and ithas to be one for one, where

(20:00):
harmony can be a symphony ofsounds that correlate together,
which then create unity, andthat to me just seems a little
bit more.
I'm a musician, so that's.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
But look at you, man.
I mean talk about work in themuscle.
The segue right in sobriety wasalways like we've been doing
this.
We've been doing this theselast six months.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Hey, I mean honestly, I just I wasn't even knowing I
was segwaying right there.
I was more or less just saying,hey, like no, you're right
though.
It's a it's a good thing to tothink about and you know there's
been a lot of things for meover the last six months, seven
months.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, what's going on with you, by the way?
I mean, we've been talking allabout my arm.
Let's find out what you wereyou're at.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
I'm not in any rush, man, I, I think in season one I
had like a big thing on like oh,let's try and keep our episodes
to 45 minutes, and then we hadlike an hour and a half one and
I was worried about analyticsand yada, yada, yada, no, I
ain't got time for that.
It all contributed to kind oflike where we left off at season
one, where I was just superburnt out and I was like I'm not

(21:09):
necessarily just because of thepodcast, you know, I actually
found relief every time I hadthose conversations and I love
all of the guests and I'mlooking forward to having more
guests on.
But it was exhausting on theeditor's side of the fence, on
the, you know, production sideof the house, right going in and

(21:31):
spending all those hoursclipping, editing, cleaning up
our voices, making sure we hadtheir intro, outro.
You were on top of doing theshow notes, things like that,
and it just got so exhaustingfor me that I wasn't going to my
own meetings anymore, I washardly talking to my sponsor

(21:52):
anymore and you know I I wassleeping a lot.
And then I really was gettingdeep, deep, deep into computer
gaming, which is fantastic.
I honestly, was never a gamer.
I mean, I always had thesystems.
I always had, you know, theoriginal PlayStation.

(22:14):
When I was a little kid Iplayed my Game Boy, I played the
Advance, I had a Dreamcast, youknow.
I played all of the systems allthe way up until PS5 and Xbox
One Series X.
But I was also a PC gamer for avery short period of time and I

(22:37):
never went back to it.
I switched over to controllerimmediately, thinking that was
the better option.
But I ended up watching Netflixand using it for other
platforms, you know, or otherways of watching shit.
It wasn't my thing.
I was always the rock climberoutside, you know, let's go dirt
biking.

(22:58):
So you know snowboarding, let'sgo do something outside.
You know, it's one of the bestthings for somebody like me.
And in my recovery I was sofocused in on the first three
years of my recovery on, youknow, giving back, working my
steps, paying it forward, beingthere, open and honest for other

(23:21):
individuals that I reallyslowly started to lose a sense
of myself and video gaming endedup being my crutch Not
initially, it was a lot of fun,because I actually initially
used it, because I have a bestfriend of mine that lives in St

(23:42):
Louis, missouri, who is a big PCgamer, and he told me to get a
PC.
We also had our small businessgoing as well.
So I was like, hey, you knowwhat?
I need?
A high powered PC so then I canrun some high tech machine in
my garage, produce some thingsfor the business but then
secretly use it for my gaming.
I was also wanting to reconnectwith him on a regular basis

(24:06):
because since I've lived out inColorado for the last five years
, I've always disassociatedmyself from friendships, and
that's something I'm working on.
I have a.
I have like three best friendsin St Louis, I have one really
solid best friend in Californiaand then I have a lot of other
actually no, that's not true.

(24:26):
I have like four solid bestfriends in California and then I
have one solid best friend outhere in Colorado.
These are all the people that Ireally connect with and really
identify with and they accept mefor who I am through and
through, and they've seen methrough my darkest stuff.
But when you move to a newstate, like I did, I had a

(24:51):
significant other at the time itwas five years ago now and we
ended up breaking up reallyquickly because of my alcoholism
, going our separate ways andthen finding respect and love
for each other later down theroad, because initially, I have
to thank her for getting me onmy path to sobriety.

(25:11):
Well, through all of that, Ithen was left with this I'm
alone here in Colorado.
When I met my wife, I wasadopted into her friend group
and adopted into her family,which then obviously later
became my actual family.

(25:31):
But initially you feel likeyou're just this weird third
party, third wheel in everythingthat you do.
I still get that sense, evenwith her friends.
I don't know why.
It's just something that I do.
So my way of curing that waswhen I, with you, identified

(25:58):
that we needed to slow down,slow a roll on the podcast, take
a break for a while, giveourselves the mental space we
need and really start focusingon things.
I had good intentions.
My intentions were get intovideo gaming with one of your
really close best friends.
It's very easy to do becauseyou get on a computer and you're

(26:21):
instantaneously able to seeeach other, you're able to chat,
and I started learning so manycool things about the video game
world of PC gamers.
Like, I know some terminology.
Now, I'm not a pro, but, hey,like I know some things a lot
more than I did six, sevenmonths ago, and he taught me all

(26:44):
about Discord.
I ended up teaching you aboutDiscord as well, because we were
kind of exploring that as aplatform to host some things in
the future, and I pretty muchthen went down an interesting
road.
My wife joined me.
She got a PC Cassie is who I'mtalking about.

(27:07):
She's helped us host a coupleof episodes, and she was a guest
on one of our episodes inseason one, and we built her a
PC, which I got to watch mybuddy teach me how to do that,
which was fantastic, but she isalso a nursing school, and so

(27:28):
she had those priorities, andshe didn't forget those
priorities because she doesn'thave ADHD she's a normie, you
know.
She is like us, though, so shehas to deal with those things,
but she was able to play gamesfor a little while with us, run
some really cool dungeons andNew World, and we leveled up all

(27:52):
our characters together.
It was a fantastic time overthe summer and it was a great
way to save money, becausefinancial stress is another
factor.
That is just a whole otheraspect to the depths of my
despair over the last six months, and through that I then

(28:17):
started to get back into smokinghookah, which, when I was 18
years old, it was actually areally cool thing for me and my
friends in California to go tothe local hookah bar and smoke
hookah Actually just legally,with no alcohol.
There might have been, you know, some smoking of us some than

(28:39):
other, every once in a whilethere as well, but for the most
part we just enjoyed it.
We had a good time on it.
So I just rekindled thatliterally from like I think I'd
stopped smoking hookah at agelike 19.
It only lasted a short periodof time, all the way up until
earlier this year, and I boughtmy own.

(28:59):
I actually hooked up the hoseto a microphone stand so then I
could PC game without having tohold on to it.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Leave it to you to figure that.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Hey, man, don't judge me until all those people are
there, I'm actually impressed.
So I mean if anybody's lookingfor a hookah solution to their
PC gaming problems hit me up.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Well, maybe you should market it.
Maybe that should be thebusiness.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
No, I should not market it.
That should be free to society.
Get yourself a microphone standproblem solved, one that bends.
So I just was doing it, onesie,twosies every now and then, but
then, slowly, I could feel theneural pathways starting to be

(29:57):
built again.
And, mind you everybody, I'mstill sober.
Alcohol, I am still free fromalcohol.
I'm free from all substances,obviously other than nicotine
right now because of Sheeshah,from hookah and caffeine.
Outside of that, no, I'vemaintained this entire time.

(30:18):
I've gone through dark timesbut I have been able to maintain
my sobriety through this bybeing held accountable, and I'm
getting there soon.
I've always had my macro voiceand my macro lens throughout my
entire life and I can always seemyself from 80 feet up in the

(30:42):
air, if not from outer space,and analyze myself from a third
party's perspective, and I cansee the writing on the wall and
the tools of sobriety.
Even though I wasn't activelyworking them at the time, I
still was in the connection withpeople in recovery.
I would still help people andpeople would help me along the
way.
It's not like I was completelydisengaged.

(31:04):
I'd be responding to posts onthe internet.
I'd be trying to help peoplethat would call me and reach out
and say, hey, I need to getinto a treatment center, and
then I would be helping out mybuddy of mine who has been
really struggling a lot latelybut he's finding his way.
So you know, with all of thesefactors at play and financial

(31:28):
stress living over us, I reallyjust wanted to disassociate.
I really wanted to embrace therestless, irritability and
discontentedness that life wasstarting to spiral me into.
And I say life was, I was, Iwas spiraling me into that.
That is me trying to placeblame on something other than
myself.

(31:49):
So, through all of that and Iknow this is really long winded,
but hey, fuck it.
I got to a beautiful place ofmelancholy where my energies

(32:10):
allowed me to wake the fuck upand just be OK with not being OK
again.
And you constantly have to shedthis stuff, you constantly have
to shed your shame, and it's anever ending process because
it's progress, not perfectionfor me and I'm ill equipped to

(32:34):
manage my own brain, which iswhy I started to reach out again
and say, hey, I'm not OK.
You even reached out a coupleof times to me over the last
seven months because you knewthat there was just something
going on.
I had some other people inrecovery reaching out to me as
well and it's so fascinating howquick we are to say I'm good,

(32:59):
to say it's all right, it's notthat bad.
We downplay it, we this, wethat, because sometimes when we
just say it like it is, peopledo shut us out or do shut us
down and you know those fearscan be confirmed sometimes and
it's really hard to pick thathard in our lives.

(33:21):
And then my wife and I weregoing through some conflicts,
just fundamental conflicts inour marriage, and I'm not going
to get into all of that stuff,but it was really trying and
really challenging for both ofus and I had to really pick up

(33:43):
some recovery books again andreally go back to the basics and
remind myself that, no matterhow far down this road of
recovery I drive, I'm alwaysstill three feet from the ditch,
which will always be right nextto the road.
And it's a little morbid, butit's humbling and it's a
reminder that it doesn't matterhow much time you have, it's

(34:07):
subjective.
All I have is this moment andtoday.
And you know, get back to thethings that bring you joy,
authentic joy, and jumping ontrampolines was one of those
things.
Getting out my heelies yeah,that's right.
You know those things that cameout in 2000 or 2001,.

(34:27):
The single wheel on the backheel of a skater shoe I never
stopped riding those, likeseriously, I have like two pair,
I think, right now, but onlyone pair works.
I broke those bad boys outagain.
I was like, anytime I'm goingto the grocery store for my wife
and for me I shouldn't say Ishouldn't say for my wife

(34:52):
Fucking asshole.
Who the fuck do I think I am?
When I go to the grocery storefor my family God damn it,
taylor, idiot I'm riding my myheelies.
Why?
Because I can do it and it'sfun and it brings me joy and I
can be a little kid again.
And surprisingly enough, they'renot as dickish to you when

(35:16):
you're 33 compared to whenyou're 12.
I got told I couldn't healyeverywhere when I was 12 years
old.
Now nobody says a damn word tome.
It's beautiful.
Except they do say dude, thoseare here, these.
Can I get a pair of those?
Where'd you get those?
What website did you get thoseoff of Healy's dot com man?
They're still around, theystill exist and I'll always be

(35:39):
wearing those.
It's pretty fucking fun, cool.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Awesome man, wow, what a story.
But it's a testament to work inthe programs that we both work
and sometimes adjustments haveto be made, sometimes going back
to the beginning in a way, orfinding that foundation again
that we started finding our wayback to that is super important.

(36:06):
I mean, I kind of went throughnot similar stuff, but I went
through my own journey,especially in spirituality and
also in the part of.
I am a perfectionist.
I think that everything I do,say whatever, has to be the most

(36:29):
perfect.
There's no doubt about it typeof thing, and so I've really
been working on allowing myselfnot to be that and what I've
done is things that I think I'msupposed to do.
Then I don't do them.
I do something else because Idon't want to think I have to do
something.
You know, if I want to take abreak and go do something else,

(36:50):
I do that.
I really try to dig deep into.
One of the biggest things, too,for me was this gave me a lot
of time to really dig deep intomy own journey and I'm in the
process of making adjustmentswith that.
I haven't pulled the triggeryet, but I've actually talked to
you about some of that.
We are.
Last little side conversation,probably what a couple of weeks

(37:14):
ago or whatever was a little bitabout that and I'm really kind
of in the universe is affordingme the opportunity to dig in.
You know, I had a chance inAugust to go.
There's a place out here, it'sin Massachusetts, it's called
Kripala Institute.

(37:34):
It is an actual yoga meditationretreat center Cool.
And I did that.
I went for four days and didthat and that was fucking
amazing and I'm so glad I did itand what was weird about it?
And you would have to be, youwould have to know me, know me
really in a lot of differentlevels to understand where this

(37:57):
is coming from.
But for the very first time ina long, long time, as I was
leaving that institute, I feltemotional, Like I felt like I
had found something that was soimportant to me, to my being, to
who I want to be.
I mean it was very spiritual.

(38:18):
You know, three days.
It was a very spiritual,getting you know, knowing your
body and knowing what it can do,and really get into meditation
and all of that kind of stuff.
And I walked out there and Ifelt emotional.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Isn't that a good feeling?
It's a great feeling it'sfleeting.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yes, yeah, well, and the other thing on top of that.
So the other thing on top ofthat was just recently, this
past week, that's how recentit's been.
I felt joy inside of me for noparticular reason, and I, you
know, I tried to put a finger onsomething that I, you know.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
I just would sound really kinky, by the way, but I
wasn't.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
it wasn't about somebody like I just started.
I wouldn't even say seeing.
I just met this person whoshe's got.
I mean everything that I'mabout.
She's about it 10 times moreand there's just so many kind of
things that line up from aspiritual perspective with this

(39:29):
person.
It wasn't about her.
She's actually out of town.
She was running a retreat inArizona, so she's out of town
for a couple of weeks, so hadnothing to do with her.
It had nothing to do with, youknow, some sort of outside thing
.
And for me it used to alwaysthe joy was always about because
I was around certain people orI was doing certain things.

(39:51):
So it was always an activity ora person outside of the
internal part of me that wascreating that feeling.
For the first time, at least inan opportunity where I could
grasp it, I felt joy, yeah, andthat to me, like I think back to

(40:11):
the early days of sobriety andrecovery and all of that.
Those are all things I hadheard about.
But I didn't know how peoplegot there and there were a
couple of times that I thought Ihad gotten there but never felt
it the way I felt it a coupleof days ago.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
And it was amazing You're reminding me of when I
initially got sober.
There was two people I calledthat night when I contemplated
pulling out my gun and puttingit to my head, not because I
wanted to commit suicide, butbecause I wanted the ringing in

(40:49):
my ears to please shut the fuckup.
After four days of new sleepand I couldn't sleep on my back
anymore because my liver ends ontour elevated, my kidneys were
really sore and inflamed andgoing to the bathroom was a shit
show.
So I called two people I calledmy dad and I called my best

(41:15):
friend in California, dustin,and one could not come out for
seven days and the other onecouldn't come out for like a
month.
So my dad came out after sevendays and I started working
program of a and I startedlistening to the recovery

(41:40):
elevator podcast and those weremy two elixirs to help.
I got sponsorship within twoweeks and off to the races.
Well, about a month later mybest friend is able to fly out
and hang out with me and he wasonly in town.

(42:00):
I can't remember how many daysit was probably like four or
five days but I remember usgetting in my forerunner and
heading up towards Morrison, theRed Rocks area to go on a
really short hike just aroundthe Morrison area, and I can

(42:24):
tell you, between stoplight aand stoplight b, I'll never
forget an overwhelming sensationof joy I had that it sucks
because you remember it so well,because it doesn't fucking

(42:45):
happen, and I want more of that.
You know, I want to pursue thatshit and the authenticity
behind it, the capacity to beempathetic and the allowance of

(43:06):
a male to be able to feel andexpress themselves in such a way
.
Did he know it in that moment?
Fuck, no, could I have told him100 percent.
We are the two best friends thatwill always hang up the phone
saying I love you, I love youtoo.
We do that, that and we're just.
We fucking love each other, andthat's the way the cookie
crumbles, and I will always sayit.

(43:27):
But you know, masculinity stillplays a part, and I'm only
bringing this up because that'sthe last, one of the last
moments.
But it's very profound momentfor me that I always reference
back to when people talk likethis, like you're talking right

(43:48):
now, and I love it.
It brings me joy actually,which is great, at least closer
to it, and so that makes me feelgood for you.
Man Like that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Well, you know the thing and that I mean that
explanation and what you know,what you were feeling, is very
similar to kind of what I felt.
And the big thing was and thisis something I think in Coming
into sobriety I did not have waswas a love for myself, was was

(44:22):
realizing I was OK the way itwas.
I didn't need to change forpeople, I didn't have to have
everything figured out.
I didn't, you know, and Ineeded to to grow up.
You know, I just had not grownup.
I drug my last year of collegewith me and had this perpetual
idea that college existed, atleast in my mind, forever and

(44:45):
ever and ever, and it was onebig happy fraternity party 24,
seven at least in my brain, andI had to grow up from all that
stuff.
And it feels like that, as I'vematured and grown up on a lot
of levels with stuff.

(45:05):
That that's where the joy isstarting to happen is the idea
that I'm coming into my own.
I'm coming into who I need tobe as a person, and or not need
to be what, but who I want to be.
That's not what I meant Notneed to be who I want to be as a
person and I am so OK with notbeing perfect.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
I am so.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
OK and in fact, like I mentioned this, new situations
come up.
So she's out of town for twoweeks.
I just use this as an example.
In the old days, even as earlyas it is, and we've literally
only known each other maybe fourweeks, I would start tripping

(45:48):
on the fact she was out of townfor two weeks and I would make
up stories in my head about howI wasn't liked or she wasn't
really into it because shedidn't do this and she didn't do
that and all this otherbullshit.
And that's the way that I usedto roll and I felt that coming
on early on, like in the firstday or two I started, I was like

(46:11):
whoa, wait a second, where areyou taking me this fucked up
mind to mind, because we're notgoing to do that.
And then all of a sudden therewas peace and like I just felt
peace and I was like I'm OK andthis is all OK and there's
nothing that I need to beworried about here.
There's nothing I need to beconcerned about.
I in myself and still who I am,and I'm OK and I'm doing well

(46:36):
and I just need to keep movingforward and that's what I've
been doing and it's such a great.
I am one of these people andprobably you might be as well
where I can do all the fuckingreading in the world I can.
I can spew knowledge to youleft and right.
I can sound like on thispodcast or anywhere.

(46:57):
You might hear me talk aboutrecovery like my God, this
fucking guy's got it figured out.
That's the intellectual part ofme, the emotional part of me,
that has to actually apply.
This shit struggles, you know,and really has a hard time when
those emotions kind of start toget in the way, and I've been

(47:17):
really trying to lean on mymeditation and lean on the idea
of emotions are going to comeand they're OK, let him go,
though they don't have to ruleyour life.
You know you can move forward,and so that's been a big part of
it.
On top of that too and I justthought this in as a tidbit,
because this is recovery Idecided to get a therapist and I

(47:42):
just started with him a coupleof a couple of sessions ago.
So we've only had a couple ofsessions, but I'm working on
some stuff in therapy.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
So I think recovery in general is constant work and
it's a constant rework.
In a sense, you're alwaysneeding to grow more.
Staying stagnant is dangerous,and that's kind of what I've
learned through this entireprocess, and I've said it before

(48:09):
and I'll say it again I seem tolearn the same.
I relearn the same five thingsevery year.
I learned how to be nice topeople all over again.
I learned that I suck atfinances who doesn't, you know?
I learn that I don't knoweverything, and I learn to be

(48:35):
gentle and kind, and then Ilearn to get outside of myself
and get to being of service, andI will forget them December
31st and I will start therelearning process January 1st.
That's not true, but it's arunning joke inside my own mind
and I really like all the thingsthat you had to say.

(48:57):
You know, when we're talkingabout the development of new
relationships, or when we wereknown to do X and Y situation,
identifying things that we canchange and modify, which to you
sounds like letting go, lettinggo of these paradigms that we've

(49:20):
written for ourselves, thesestories.
We've told ourselves that ifthis situation occurs, I respond
like this the world works likethis, society is going to always
do this.
These are all paradigms, theseare all preconceived transcripts
that we wrote about our ownlives, and it is shedding those,

(49:41):
getting rid of them, but thennot judging them at the same
time, and not not judging them,letting them go, which is the
weirdest place to be, and itonly exists when you don't talk
about it.
So it's so profound and it'ssomething I've been focusing on

(50:08):
a lot lately myself Just tryingto be yes, not be more, not be
less, but to be and allow thetransient thoughts to be

(50:28):
transient.
They are traversing across mybrain and they can go and they
can flow, but then playing,paying closer attention to the
authentic thoughts and the onesthat lead me to the eventual
phrase of I know who I am, andthe I am is not this meat suit

(50:55):
that I walk around in, or thevocal cords I use, or the
borrowed atoms that manifestedthemselves over billions of
years ago that I'm borrowingright now to create my hands.
The I am is this Eternal energygoing through a temporary human

(51:17):
experience and the joy ofgetting a superpower called
perception.
I get to perceive the universe,I get to witness it, I get to
be a part of it, I get tocontribute to it, and all of
those are started with I getinstead of I have to, I must,
this is a demand of society.

(51:38):
All of those negativeterminologies that then poison
my own brain and lead me to ashorter existence.
I, those are the paradigms thatare getting shifted.
Those are the things that we'retalking about in that building
of the new relationship thatyou're experiencing right now is
those paradigm shifts.
I get versus I get to verse Ihave to.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Or.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
I could hyper focus on this, or I can let it go and
let it flow.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
Oh man, I love all of that.
That's like right, right up myalley and I would actually go.
When you said I am, I almostfelt like stop right there,
because that's it, it's I am.
The moment you start adding toI am, you're building a
construct of yourself, that's animage in your brain.
If you're just, I am almost, ifyou can almost, in my opinion,

(52:31):
if you can almost do, I ameverything, that's more real
because you're part of theenergy field, of everything.
And, and you know, tara Brockwrote a book I have not read it,
I am getting it next but it'scalled radical acceptance and
I've heard her talk aboutexcerpts out of it and she's

(52:52):
commented about what radical Imean the words kind of you get
it from the words, but radicalacceptance, radically accepting
where I'm at and letting it bewhat it is and then going from
there.
So, versus trying to make itsomething that I want it to be,

(53:13):
I'm going to radically acceptwhat it is and then I'm going to
figure out from there how do Imanage that acceptance?
You know what, whatever thatmight be, how do I manage that
acceptance?
So if somebody is saying, forinstance, we'll use a
relationship, hey, I don't wantto talk to you anymore.
You know I'm done.
Accept the fact that that iswhat's happening and then decide

(53:37):
what you are going to do aboutit within yourself, not with
that other person.
Not that you're going to try tofix that necessarily.
Maybe you do, but maybe youdon't.
Maybe you'll let it be what itis, but it's through the
allowing yourself to experience.

(53:59):
Right.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
So, like you can radically accept something.
I radically accept that thefucking dude across the street
is gonna beat that woman, andI'm radically accepting that.
You can easily argue.
I'm not gonna fucking radicallyaccept that.
No, I'm gonna probably go overthere and try and help, but
that's, I don't think what we'rereferring to.

(54:21):
In this situation, you'reallowing the universe to exist
the way that it is, for it'sgood, it's bad, it's right, it's
wrong.
Not saying you don't takeaction to it.
Right, it's not without action.
Responding to your own self,your own boundaries, your own
morals, your own beliefs is 100%within line of that concept.

(54:46):
I haven't read the book, butyou know I feel like it needs to
be said, because that's alwaysa blurred line Whenever I talk
about acceptance in general ofthat argument being presented
back to me.
Well, what if there's a gunmanacross the street and you just
accept him killing people?

Speaker 1 (55:03):
No, and that's not what it's talking about.
But you're right.
And except it's more internal,it's more radically accepting
where you're at in that moment.
So the energy flows withinyourself.
Right, not the externalconsequences.
Right, the fact that I mean,listen, you know, we live in a

(55:24):
world today where people don'twant to talk about things, you
know?
I mean, I grew up with a familywith parents that if they
didn't talk about things, itdidn't exist.
So when you can radicallyaccept that, hey, there's a
problem in this family, we needto talk about it.
All right, that's true, that'sreal.
So what are we gonna talk aboutto try to change that, you know
, versus ignoring that it'sgoing on and just let it

(55:48):
perpetuate for however many moreyears that you let it
perpetuate?
And I'm talking about hardcorestuff, like a parent being an
alcoholic, you know.
Yeah, a parent having angerissues towards other family
members and not talking to themor including them in the lives
of their own kids becausethey're angry at them.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Yeah, we don't talk about blah, you know Right.
We don't talk about dad.
Dad's in the garage drinkingagain, right?
You know Right?
He's out there.
We know he's out there.
He knows he's out there.
Everybody in the house knowshe's out there.
Can somebody come over andwatch the dog?

(56:28):
Isn't dad in the garagedrinking?

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Yeah, no, he's not.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
I mean he is, but he doesn't count Right.
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
So then we tiptoe around all those things and we
pretend that they don't existand we try to live a false life,
a false family life that hasthis in it that nobody's
addressing it's very ingrainedpassive behavior that can get
developed in those situations.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Absolutely.
And yeah, I think the path ofletting go right, I even think
what Dao the Dao translates tothe way Right, the way in which
we go Right.

(57:20):
The sentence ends there.
The second I define it anymoreI'm screwing it up.
So I think over the last sevenmonths there's been a lot of
deep, deep exploration, andphrases like it's always darkest
before the dawn come to mind.
They're a little cliche, butthis is way better than what I

(57:48):
already know I would be doinggoing back out and drinking,
going back out and trying tonumb out.
And don't get me wrong, yeah, Ilike to smoke hookah.
It's not right, but I'll takeit, at least for now, way over

(58:11):
going and doing the harder stuff.
That I know will end me on away shorter path and I know I
can work on the hookah thing.
The whole point of me eventalking about it is because
that's accountability.
I have been going back andseeing my therapist as well and
having fantastic conversationswith him and I constantly have

(58:34):
to shed myself of this stuff andno matter how many times I fuck
up financially, no matter howmany times I fuck up with hookah
or whatever.
Surprisingly enough, I still atleast have my priorities enough
well in mind to maintain mysobriety, and I think a lot of

(58:55):
that contributes to keeping incontact with like-minded
individuals and being heldaccountable, connecting with
other people and allowing themto know what my current
struggles are, and allowingpeople to corral around you to
say it's OK to not be OK.
You can go through this.

(59:17):
But then also having the reallycool friends that say, all
right, yeah, it's OK to not beOK, but get the fuck up asshole.
There's the thin line therebetween how much do I allow you
to sit in bed and sulk and whendo I kick you in the ass, and so
it's always good to have bothtypes of friends at your side,
which is what I've had toinclude my wife.

(59:38):
She's been both.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean the same for me.
Listen, I still smoke pot, andI don't because I kind of grew
up in this world of sobrietywhere I looked at what was the
thing that was causing me theproblem, and the thing that was
causing me the problem wasalcohol.
Now, does that mean that myattitude towards smoking pot

(01:00:04):
hasn't changed?
It has, and my big thing aboutit is I'm very, very leery of it
going down the wrong road.
If it does go down the wrongroad, then I would immediately
say done enough, it is not.
Still doesn't mean that I'm notthinking about the idea that

(01:00:27):
maybe I should.
Just, I'm kind of at a placenow where it doesn't matter
anymore.
It's not really important to me, because with everything I'm
doing, and especially thephysical part of what I'm trying
to do, I just feel like that issomething that, for me,
probably will be let go of soonenough.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Well, and I think that, with regards to substances
like marijuana, where it'spretty blaringly obvious that
it's going to be legalizedpretty soon here, and regardless
of what you think personally onrecreational use, purely

(01:01:12):
focusing on the medical side ofthe fence, leaps and bounds of
information out there and moreresearch to be done on the
medical benefits of using such athing.
To me, people who can consumethat currently self-diagnosing
in a sense because you can'treally get the medical advice

(01:01:34):
you need to take itappropriately the research isn't
all done yet on a federal level.
I mean locally, you can get itprescribed to.
Yes, it's similar to takingibuprofen, it's similar to and

(01:01:55):
don't quote me on this stuff,guys- I'm still just a fucking
drunk idiot.
But what I'm getting at is yourjourney is yours, my journey is
mine, the second I try andcontrol.
Your journey is the second.
I'm fucking at my own, and loveand acceptance, tolerance and

(01:02:16):
patience, kindness is all partof my program and I fully think
that you're going to explorewhat you're going to explore.
That's your journey and it's abeautiful thing and I'm all for
it.
And I think that the less weforce on other people our own

(01:02:41):
opinions about the definition ofwhat recovery and sobriety is,
the more we're able to filleveryone's cups with more love
and acceptance, because I thinkit's just way more of an
appropriate thing.
Sorry if that sounded like aweird tangent.

(01:03:02):
Well, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Because you bring up a couple of points.
That and why I brought it up,was, first and foremost,
listeners out there to go ohwait, so I got to stop
everything to get sober.
Well, I don't know if I want todo that.
So I want the listeners to knowthat, hey, there's different
pathways to how you get sober,how you decide or how you define

(01:03:27):
sobriety.
Maybe that's probably evenbetter If it keeps you, if what
you're doing is helping you.
So if quitting alcohol was yourmain thing but you still smoke
pot or whatever and that helpsyou, when you're able to move
forward and you're able to bepositive and your life is able
to grow and expand and do allthe things that we hope happens

(01:03:50):
in a sobriety situation, thenwho am I to tell you you're
wrong?
I'm not that person.
Secondly, the reason why youbrought it up was so here you
talked about hookah and youdefined it and it's tobacco.
But the moment you said it wastobacco, probably most people go
oh, it's only tobacco, oh, ok,which is ironic.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Which should be way more high on the schedule of
drugs than marijuana in mypersonal opinion, along with
alcohol.
Alcohol should probably be aschedule and drug.
No medical benefit and no usein a society.
Is a schedule and drug.
There is medical benefit toalcohol, sadly, but yeah, no use

(01:04:38):
in a society.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's anextremist view, but that's
because I'm sober.
Let me be biased, fuck you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
But I do think that one of the things that I had to
really do was, first off,realize that I'm not perfect and
that I don't need to be perfectto work a program.
I don't need to be perfect toget better.
I can get better without beingperfect.

(01:05:07):
It's not about all or nothing,and I've been really, really
trying in the last almost fiveyears now to get away from the
idea of I have to be perfect orI can't do this.
And that goes for everything inmy life, not just my journey in
recovery, but in everythingthat I do.
I don't go after anything nowwith oh I can do that perfect,

(01:05:29):
so I'm going to go do it.
Oh, I'm not going to do thatperfectly, so I'm not going to
do it.
I do shit that turns out weird,but I like doing it and I just
did it and I'm OK with it.
And I think that we have to asa society, we live too much
within these blurred lines noteven blurred lines, very strict

(01:05:52):
lines of here's who you'resupposed to be, and if you can't
be that person, then you can'tplay, You're not allowed in the
game.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Well, yeah, and it takes an alcoholic to come up,
or a drug ear and alcoholic tocome up with a phrase like that.
Right, where we're extremists,we're all or nothingists.
So leave it up to us to be likeoh, you are going in smoking
weed.
You're not sober at all,whatsoever.

(01:06:21):
You can unsubscribe right now.
We don't want to see you backhere again until you're 100%
sober, off of everything.
If you're using mouthwash thathas hints of alcohol in it,
you're pretty much fucked.
You might as well just go tohell right now.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
You drink kombucha.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Yeah, you might as well just go back out and drink,
or if you drink, kombucha,right?
Because, it contains alcoholand it's a little bit
unregulated.
We could have a wholediscussion on that.
Maybe we should do that onepisode two, but I love this
though, eric.
I really do.
I think it's.
All.
These things are the raw thingsthat I think people don't like

(01:06:58):
to talk about in open forums and, honestly, thank you, sir, for
bringing up some of theseconversations, because that's
the point of this is being ableto shed our shame, have
conversations that are raw andbe able to learn from each other
and to be able to say thingsthat we change our minds on

(01:07:20):
tomorrow who fucking knows why?
Because this is an exploration,and who knows what tomorrow is
going to bring.
My brain has changed 80 milliontimes, if not more, since the
start of this conversation, solet alone my lifetime, and

(01:07:41):
that's because I'm constantlytrying to analyze and interpret
the world, and as newinformation comes in, I can
change my mind.
Or just and that's something Ifeel like society has forgotten
a little bit is you have theability to change your mind?

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
Well, right and just simply listening and being open
to the listening process and notjudging immediately, which we
all do on all facets of theworld.
And I really think the momentsomebody's telling you that, oh,
you're not doing everything,well then you're not sober that
person is using their ego tocondemn you number one and

(01:08:19):
number two.
It's not up to them to makethat decision whether you are
sober enough to be part of thetribe.
It's up to you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
If you are, if whatever it is you're doing is
working and keeping you movingforward in the right way in my
opinion, then keep doing what'sworking and I will always give
the flip coin to whatever we'retalking about and say that, if

(01:08:50):
you need a fucking strong, sternkick in the ass and get
yourself a good Bible thumb bigbook thumper not Bible number,
but big book thumper getyourself a good, strong sponsor
that says no, motherfucker, youain't doing shit anymore.
This is the way you're going towalk, this is how you're going
to talk, this is how you'regoing to do shit moving forward.
Why?
Because you haven't been ableto make a goddamn decision in
your whole fucking life and youneed some fucking structure.

(01:09:11):
That's OK too.
Yep, absolutely, because thatis what I needed, and I can't
knock the person who needs whatyou need, just like you can't
knock the person that needs whatI need, and it depends person
to person.
Some people need that allowance,they need to explore, they need

(01:09:31):
to figure things out forthemselves, and, in all honesty,
there isn't one right answer tothis, because there are people
out there that can do x, y andjust not z, and there are people
out there who can't do anythingat all whatsoever, to include
the mouthwash.
So, at the end of the day,though, we have to be open and

(01:09:52):
honest with ourselves, becausenobody gets us fucking sober.
We have to come to theconclusion for ourselves, and I
think that's ultimately a reallycool thing.
Once we make that decision,lower those energies of our
addiction and start risingourselves up to the potential

(01:10:14):
that exists all around us theability to perceive this
universe for a short period oftime on a rock that is moving
billions of miles an hour,heading towards a black hole
following a sun.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
OK, so I've got a question for you.
Hey, wait, I didn't finish mythought, god damn it.
I'm like, ok, I know we'regoing deeper to that dark hole,
let's just talk.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
I'm called an asshole .

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Yeah, but I do have a question for you because I know
my answer and I think I mightknow what your answer might be.
In the last seven months, doyou feel like that you have done
work and have grown?
Just simple yes or no?

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Yes, I agree, I feel like I'm the same.
The only reason I ask thatquestion and hopefully, as the
listeners are listening is thisthe bottom line is this If you
are working and working, aprogram means everything.
So you're working.
It could be your spirituality,it could be your physicality.
Maybe you decide, hey, I'mgoing to start eating right, I'm

(01:11:19):
going to try to start walkingevery day, or whatever it might
be.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
It could be any of those things, even if you're not
sober yet, even if you're justsober curious.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
But working things and getting better every day is
what this is all about.
A bunch of lips, baby, and youcan do that, and you could be on
the verge of saying, hey, I'mdone drinking.
So you might be sitting herelistening to this saying, ok,
I'm really thinking about it,but I haven't pulled the trigger
yet.
But maybe you're alreadystarting to eat better, maybe

(01:11:49):
you've cut back a tiny bit,maybe you're trying to get
involved in things you've seeninvolved in before or whatever.
You're trying to do positivethings in your life.
You're already working aprogram.
You may not be totally done,but you're working a program.
And for all those out therethat are on day one for the
1,000 time, you're still workinga program.
You're still making it happen.

(01:12:10):
It's taking you time to getthere, but you're getting there.
And that's the whole point inall of this and I think what we
were sharing today on this wasour point about this is just do
the work, whatever that means.
Do the work to get better as aperson.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
I think that's brilliant, eric, and I think
that's a good segue into aconclusion for episode one of
season two of SovereignShameless.
I couldn't agree more.
I think that to all of thoselistening out there, to those
that listened through season one, thank you, thank you, thank
you.

(01:12:48):
The individuals out therestruggling on day one, the
people out there who arestruggling on day 10,000 and one
right.
Yeah, great point 20 years ofsobriety.
I think that's what that is.
It's fucking hard.

(01:13:11):
There's no way to get around itother than what I've been
trying to practice lately is letgo of the feeling of wanting to
quit and not wanting to quit.
Letting go of it, Because whatI've learned up until now is the

(01:13:37):
more I hold on to what I desire, which is not necessarily
sobriety anymore, because it'sother things.
Insert X here If it is.
I desire sobriety and I'm onday 1,000 and I'm batting one
day.
The desire is the issue and Ineed to let that go.

(01:14:04):
I need to quit resisting theflow of life, and that does not
mean give into temptation.
It means to let temptation goas well.
You're letting all of it go andflow and allow the universe to
exist.
So I feel like this second halfof the episode got really woo

(01:14:29):
woo on us there, man.

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
I listen, I'm okay about that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
I feel like I need a lot of fucking candle or some
shit.
I don't fucking know man, Do Ineed to cleanse myself?

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
Yes, yes, you do.
I think I farted Well for somepeople that be cleansing.
So to each his own right Toeach his own.
That's what we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
Oh my gosh dude.
I think this is a great episodeof episode one.
Thank you to all our listeners.
We love you all very much and,in the spirit of season two, we
do not know when our nextepisode is going to be airing,
and that's okay with us, becausewe're gonna let that fucking

(01:15:14):
shit go and flow down the river.
I had a huge issue with it onseason one of being super
consistent and trying to hold astandard to compare myself with
other sober podcasts that arefantastic, brilliant individuals
and they're amazing people.
I am not them and I am who I am.

(01:15:36):
I am right, eric.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
I am, I am.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
And I think you and I briefly discussed this before.
But we need to be authentic toourselves.
So we will release episodes, wepromise and we will be back and
we will be adding new funcontent along the way, but don't
fucking ask me when and I thinkthat was meant towards me as

(01:16:05):
much as towards all of you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
So I will, yeah, eric , but I agree, and yeah, we're
trying.
Listen, sometimes you gottagive yourself a break and
sometimes you know, when we getcaught up in the minutia of it's
gotta be this way or else typeof thing, we're just fucking

(01:16:28):
ourselves is what we're doingand it doesn't work.
And the whole idea of all thiswas one to come in, just talk
and two, to really showeverybody kind of the raw
footage of what it's like to bein this world and what it's like

(01:16:51):
to be sober in the workingprocesses on a daily basis.
They're not always pretty andthey're not always perfect and
they're not always you know.
Oh, we're going in the rightway.
La la la is everything great?
You know, sometimes it's hard,sometimes it's a struggle,
sometimes we get plateaued andwe have to just sit there for a

(01:17:13):
while until we figure it out andthat's all good.
That's part of all of this.
So I'm glad that the listenerswere here today, I'm glad that
we were able to do this contentand definitely there'll be more
to come, but we just don't knowwhen.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Yeah, Stay tuned.
Hey, wait in the words of themilitary stand by to stand by.
There's more coming your way.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Love you guys.
I did move my mic out of the.
Oh, here we go.
I did.
I was talking while it wascounting.
That's not good.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
I did move my mic out of the way, so it's not like
right in my face all the time.
I like it Well, speaking of inyour face, let's play the new
season two theme song before wehave our conversation today.
Yeah man, all right, let's doit, let's do it.
Woo, yeah, I like this one.

(01:18:45):
I love it.
I think that was enough.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
I love it.
I could listen to that all day.
Man, it's revving me up.
Let's go.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
I know it kind of makes me feel like, you know,
like the bright side of a Mondaymorning.
You know you're driving intowork and you're like I don't
really want to be doing this,but then you hear that song and
you're like, all right, I thinkI could fucking do this, or at
least you could.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
Yeah, makes me feel like just put your head down,
kick some ass, and who cares?

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
Yeah, fuck it, I like it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
Well, you know what?

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
I think we just decided to hit the record button
because we've beenprocrastinating recording
episodes for season two for solong and you and I came to the
conclusion that we are gettingin our own way.
So we're just going to have ano holds bar, totally authentic
conversation to bring aboutseason two, because you and I
just really want to get back atthis.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
So I just want to say this to all our listeners we're
back.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Holy shit, we're back and we have no idea what the
fuck we're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
Not at all Same as the first, but that's the way it
should be, and we have somereason why that should be that
way, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
Well, dude, in all seriousness, I have missed you.
To our listeners, we haveactually not been in
communication on a regular basis.
Eric has had his life going onand I've had my life going on.
There has been a huge gap oftime between last episode and
this episode.
I want to say shit, man.
When was the last episode aired?

(01:20:08):
End of season one.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
I think what was it around May mid-May, somewhere in
there.
Right, I want to say it in theMay.

Speaker 2 (01:20:16):
It is now November 10th.
Yeah, we've chit-chatted hereand there and we've had some
business meetings about the showhere and there, but we really
needed the break.
I think At least I know I didand I think we really needed to
or at least I needed toimplement some practices that I
was preaching about, but it wasnot implementing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
Well, absolutely, and I mean there's some things that
I will share in this episode,but the bottom line is we are
two drunks trying to make itinto the world and we're being
authentic, and the authenticitypart for us was the break.
We needed that break and weneeded to go do our own shit for

(01:20:59):
a while and we needed tonavigate through some stuff
individually as well ascollectively, and I think it was
all good.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
I do too, man, I really do.
I had to go to some deep, darkplaces of the corners of my mind
and then come back from it, andI'm still on the uptick right
now, which gives me the capacityto get back and to give back.
But shameless baby.
There were some fucked up timesduring the last what is that?

(01:21:33):
Six months?
May, june, july, august,september, october, november.
Seven months I counted on myfingers everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
And thank God he's got all his fingers, so it
worked.

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):
I do, I do.
See, this is the gratitude listI'm starting right now.

Speaker 1 (01:21:51):
I have all 10 fingers .
I have all my fingers.

Speaker 2 (01:21:56):
Well listen, I'm sorry, dude, Don't you have a
mechanical arm right now?
I?

Speaker 1 (01:22:01):
do I do?
Speaking of things that you gothrough in the last seven months
, september 2nd I tore my biceptendon from the elbow and it
just rolled right up my arm andI had a surgery and they had to
repair it.
And I've been in PT I amactually in so one thing I

(01:22:25):
learned about it was the date ofthe surgery and the date of the
protocol.
Beginnings of PT are thecounting is different.
So when we started counting itso I was when I started PT I was
three weeks out of surgery, butPT counted it as protocol week

(01:22:46):
number two.
So basically what that means toall our listeners that might be
following along, who probablyhave had orthopedic stuff going
on and totally understand this,the thought was that that week,
the week from the surgery towhen you first get checked, does

(01:23:06):
not count Because that's theanything goes week.
Anything could happen comingout of surgery, type of thing.
But then the surgeon checks youout and said, OK, we're
starting to count from here andthen you'll start your protocol
in two weeks.
So anyway, it's been a.
Have you ever had somethinghappen to you where everybody's

(01:23:29):
going oh man, wow, that had tohurt or whatever, and you're
going?
No, it didn't hurt that muchand honestly, I'm completely
fucking intrigued by this wholething.

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
How is this all going to work?
Well, I mean, tell me whathappened.

Speaker 1 (01:23:45):
So I was hiking with a friend and we were, and, by
the way, it was basically anuphill hike.
That was the only hard part ofit.
It was, at that point, had beenup to that point have been
super simple, but it was a goodkind of cardio type of hike.
A tree had fallen over the pathso we had to climb over the
tree.
So I found the lowest part toclimb over, so we started

(01:24:09):
climbing over.

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
I was like those big red, like a redwood tree,
because those trunks aregigantic, like like a big tree
base or what.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
It was a fairly no.
It wasn't huge like that, butit was mid middle of the road.
I mean we don't have anythingout here, that's that big.

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
I'm a California kid born and raised, so the redwoods
is what came to mind.
I was like holy crap, we don'thave those.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
But we have big trees , but but it was.
It was a good medium sizedtrunk Got it, and so I found the
easiest way to go over.
I thought and we get up onthere and I start to lose my
balance.
So I grabbed, for a branch isright above me.
I figured, oh, that'll buoy me,I'll be fine.
I still kept going.
I went down, I held on to thebranches.

(01:24:54):
I was going down, it yanked myarm and as I twisted it, just
like I could feel it Rubber band, yeah, and it felt like.
I thought I heard a little pop,but I don't know if I did or
didn't.
Initially I thought I just reinjured an old injury and then
it started to feel tingly and Ithought, hmm, that's not a good

(01:25:16):
sign.
And I pulled my shirt up andthere you had a little
indentation in my arm where mybicep used to be.
Wow, and the bicep was up here.
So I had this big.
It looked like I'd been workingout like massively for like.

Speaker 2 (01:25:32):
In one small section of your forearm, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
Exactly, it looked like freaky man, just a little
freaky.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Yeah, you look like you skipped forearm day.
Yeah, yeah, more or less.

Speaker 1 (01:25:44):
More or less so they um.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
that's wild, though man, I mean that's wild.
And you said it didn't evenhurt for you.
Because I mean obviously you,the way you made it sound.
I'm sure people are cringingright now.
I mean, even I kind of want tocringe a little bit how it's.

Speaker 1 (01:26:01):
when I first went down it's stung around the elbow
and and but it was felt likesimilar like an injury I had
before.
So I thought, oh it's, I justaggravated this old injury.
I'm fine, right.
And I started walking and andand it started to subside the
feeling.
But then I started feeling thistingling down my arm.

(01:26:22):
I thought, okay, that's odd.
When I got to the ER, so I hadanother hour and a half out.
I mean, we were half, we wereonly halfway into the hike and I
had to get out.
I mean I couldn't.
Yeah, there's no shortcut, Ihad to do it.
So we're doing the hike.
I kept the arm up close to meand we just like did it.
And when I got to the ER, thefirst question was, on a scale

(01:26:43):
one to 10, what's your painthreshold?
And like, yeah, that's an oddquestion because I wasn't
feeling a lot of pain.
I said maybe a three, probablymore like a two.
And the guy stopped writing andlooked at me it was what?
And I said yeah, I said I mean,why are you asking me about
pain?
Because well, that's usually apainful injury.
And I said, oh, I said well,I'm, that's where I'm at.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
So when.

Speaker 1 (01:27:05):
I went back there.
All they did was keep asking methat and everybody ever since
has asked me.
You know about the pain level.
The worst pain I had was comingout of surgery.
They didn't do a nerve blockright away because they wanted
to make sure the nerves stillworked.
So I woke up.
I was in extreme pain.
They did the nerve block.
I didn't feel it.
From there I was able to manageeverything with ibuprofen and I

(01:27:29):
got through those initial fouror five days of out of surgery
and, you know, been rocking eversince the PT.
I'm good this, this contraption, is coming off, but I'm saving
it for next Halloween.
I'm just going to get a sideface and all that and become
like the Terminator.

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
I think you your ibuprofen, that you're Superman.
I will let that dad joke, justsimmer.

Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
Well, I think what it is also, and I got to be, you
know, I got to be cautious ofthis.
I just think I have a reallyhigh pain threshold.

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):
Yeah, I mean what like, please don't make this a
habit every season, by the way,because I know last season you
had your leg stuff going on.
Correct, yeah, I had.
Yep, I did.
Was it shin sponsor?
What was that last?

Speaker 1 (01:28:20):
I had it.
It happened in late October.
Well, that's when I felt youwere running because you.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
I was running from not running to being Iron man.

Speaker 1 (01:28:29):
Yeah, I added in an extra activity and I was really
pushing it.
Plus I was doing a lot of legwork anyway because I was trying
to, you know, do harder hikesand I ended up with a stress
fracture last year.
Yeah, that was actually healingby the time I got to the doctor
, because I thought I justreally sprained my ankle and it

(01:28:51):
just wasn't healing.
So I finally went to the orthoand it was yep, you got a stress
fracture, but it's healing andit's healing in the right
position.
So I'm just going to throw youin a boot for a few weeks and
we'll see where we're at.
And that was last October.
So this October I had a newadventure Not the one you drink
out of, Right?

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
Okay, not Dostoe.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
And then I just I am hoping and praying that we get
to next October, november and Idon't have to go through any of
these kind of things again and Ican enjoy an outdoor autumn
hike like any normal human being.

Speaker 2 (01:29:27):
I mean hiking sounds dangerous.
That's what I'm gathering fromall of this.
Hiking and running sound likethe worst.
Everybody right now PSA don'thike, don't run.

Speaker 1 (01:29:40):
Don't listen to Taylor.
I am a fucking health, I am aclutch and that's a big part of
the story.
So do you know?

Speaker 2 (01:29:50):
I just got back from Skyzone, the trampoline place.
They amazingly survived COVID,which I'm really happy about.
Long story boring One of myvery first jobs at the age of, I

(01:30:11):
want to say, 16.
I worked at sky high sports,which was a competitor of
Skyzone in Rancho Cordova,california, and I was a
trampoline instructor.
I taught, like an aerobicsclass, aerobics on trampolines.
But for somebody with my ADHD,high energy it was a perfect

(01:30:38):
sport for me to get into and tokind of vent out that excess
energy from Thursday to Sunday4pm to midnight.
And was that freshman,sophomore year of high school?
Well, and it was an amazingexperience which I can.

(01:30:59):
I could go on and on and onabout that, but fast forwarding
to now.
Right, that's 16 year oldTaylor.
Now I am 33 year old Taylor.
I thought it would be smart.
I've jumped over the years.
It's not like I did this coldturkey after you know what 16
years, Right?
So I've jumped a little bithere and there over the years.

(01:31:23):
I still have my basic skills,but I have not jumped in quite a
while and I just decided to goback by myself.
And I've been spending a lot oftime recently playing so much
Halo on PC and, oddly enough Iknow this might sound odd to our

(01:31:48):
listeners smoking a lot ofhookah, which is just a version
of tobacco and it's calledShisha.
I've been using those twothings as a crutch, which I'll
talk about more later, and I'mtrying to break that up.

(01:32:10):
This is real time.
Even today I'm trying to breakit up as of last week.
I'm trying to, you know, getback to the basics and adopt
different things into my dailylife.
So I went like last week I wenttwice.
The first time I thought mylungs were going to pop.

(01:32:33):
The second time, not that bad,but then I took five days off
and then I went back today and Ifelt like my lungs were going
to pop again.
And oh my gosh man, thedifference between 23 and 33 and
33 and 16, you know it's.
I'm not getting any younger andI have to pay more attention.

(01:32:55):
I really do Like it's kind ofinteresting for me, and I know
everybody out there is like, oh,33, you're still young, I am,
but at the same time I'm alsonot 23 anymore.
So you know there is that and Ihave to be more cognizant of it
.
So it was really good though itwas a great workout.
My lungs are kind of calmingdown now, but, holy shit, man,

(01:33:21):
just thought of having to paymore attention Like and what our
brains think at you know, likemy brain still thinks I'm 16.
And my body is like, yeah, no,like you know, you got, you got
some bum knees now, man, andyour neck doesn't bend that way
sometimes.
So careful, right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:44):
Well, when I did, when I was on the podcast for RE
, I was interviewed by Odetteand you know there's that place
in there where they ask your ageand I said you know I was 58.
And she said, oh, 58, going on38.
And I bring that up because ofwhat you just said, because I
think that's part of it is.

(01:34:04):
I've got to be aware that.
You know, I just have to becautious in how I do things, not
that I can't do them, I justhave to be smarter about what
I'm taking on.
And everything I'm doing isfine, I just have to do it with
a little bit more caution,that's all.
So, again, in saying that andeven the doctor said it, the PT

(01:34:26):
guys say it all the time I coulddo the same thing a hundred
times again and never tear that,never tear that bicep.
That was just a freak, freakaccident Could happen to anybody
, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
So our biceps similar to bones where, like you know,
they can come back stronger.
I mean, I know age plays afactor.
Until that too, I'm dumb.
I don't know these things.

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):
I just I don't know.
I mean, I know that they toldme that what happens is where
they reattached it to the bonegrows around that where that
reattachment is and it helpsstrengthen it.
So I take extra calcium and butthat was something I was doing
from the break last year and youknow they were like, yeah, I
keep taking D3 and extra calciumalong with you know working,

(01:35:15):
like they were all about megoing back to the gym as soon as
I could possibly go and when Iwent back I was literally back
in the gym like probably weekthree of out of the surgery.
Good for you, because the leftside like I don't know if you
know this and maybe listenersknow this, maybe they don't but
one of the things I found out inall this that I thought was
amazing, and my brother found it, was that there's been studies

(01:35:38):
done that when people that haveinjuries to a limb, if they work
out the other side, their theiratrophy issues will be minimal
or lessened, I guess I shouldsay, and also their ability,
like I found this out too thatyour brain, so there's a part of

(01:35:58):
your brain that works each partof your body, so your arm or
arms, are worked by a certainpart of your brain.
So and it's intricate in termsof, your right arm is worked by
a certain part of your brain,your left arm is worked by a
certain part of your brain.
Well, when there is an injury,where that part of the body is
not working, that part of thebrain actually shuts down and it

(01:36:21):
can be atrophied as well.
So, by working out on the otherside, the brain balances.
So whenever there's an overloadon one side, it'll balance over
into the other side.
So by balancing over into theright side, it's it's firing
that part of the brain andmaking it work.
And it's also firing thosemuscles, like the, the synopsis

(01:36:44):
to the muscles, those muscles,that information to the muscles
is still working because thebrain is firing to it, which
just makes healing better.

Speaker 2 (01:36:54):
Yeah, and I feel like I mean shit.
It seems like an analogy for alot of things in life, though as
well, you know, even relatingto like sobriety.
Why does it have to be aphysical limb?
It could be a mental limb thatwe're fucked up with right now,
that we need to heal, and I feellike what you're saying is the
only way to do that is, you haveto take action.

(01:37:17):
You have to do something aboutit, because you're going to the
gym and you're choosing to workout the other side and see
results, and your brain isassisting you and compensating
for it and finding harmony.
I don't know about balance.
I always replace balance withharmony because I always think

(01:37:38):
of balance as a seesaw, and ithas to be one for one, where
harmony can be a symphony ofsounds that correlate together,
which then create unity, andthat to me just seems a little
bit more.
I'm a musician, so that's.

Speaker 1 (01:37:52):
But look at you, man.
I mean talk about work in themuscle.
The segue right in sobriety wasalmost like we've been doing
this.
We've been doing this theselast six months.

Speaker 2 (01:38:03):
Hey, I mean honestly, I just I wasn't even knowing I
was segueing right there.
I was more or less just sayinghey, like no, you're right
though.
It's a it's a good thing to tothink about and you know there's
been a lot of things for meover the last six months, seven
months.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
Yeah, what's going on with you, by the way?
I mean we've been talking allabout my arm.
Let's find out what you whereyou're at.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
I'm not in any rush, man.
I.
I think in season one I hadlike a big thing on like oh,
let's try and keep our episodesto 45 minutes, and then we had
like an hour and a half one andI was worried about analytics
and yada, yada, yada, I know Igot time for that.
It all contributed to kind oflike where we left off at season
one, where I was just superburnt out, not necessarily just

(01:38:53):
because of the podcast, you know, I actually found relief every
time I had those conversationsand I love all of the guests and
I'm looking forward to havingmore guests on.
But it was exhausting on theeditor's side of the fence, on
the, you know, production sideof the house, going in and

(01:39:13):
spending all those hoursclipping, editing, cleaning up
our voices, making sure we hadtheir intro, outro.
You were on top of doing theshow notes, things like that.
And it just got so exhaustingfor me that I wasn't going to my
own meetings anymore.
I was hardly talking to mysponsor anymore and you know I

(01:39:38):
was sleeping a lot.
And then I really was gettingdeep, deep, deep into computer
gaming, which is fantastic.
I honestly was never a gamer.
I mean, I always had thesystems I always had, you know,
the original PlayStation.
When I was a little kid, Iplayed my Gameboy, I played the

(01:40:00):
advance, I had a Dreamcast, youknow.
I played all of the systems allthe way up until PS5 and Xbox
One Series X.
But I was also a PC gamer for avery short period of time and I
never went back to it.

(01:40:21):
I switched over to controllerimmediately, thinking that was
the better option.
But I ended up watching Netflixand using it for other
platforms, you know, or otherways of watching shit.
It wasn't my thing.
I was always the rock climberoutside, you know, let's go dirt
biking, let's go.

(01:40:41):
You know, snowboarding, let'sgo do something outside.
You know, it's one of the bestthings for somebody like me.
And in my recovery I was sofocused in on the first three
years of my recovery on, youknow, giving back, working my
steps, paying it forward, beingthere, open and honest for other

(01:41:03):
individuals that I reallyslowly started to lose a sense
of myself and video gaming endedup being my crutch Not
initially, it was a lot of fun,because I actually initially
used it, because I have a bestfriend of mine that lives in St

(01:41:24):
Louis, missouri, who is a big PCgamer and he told me to get a
PC.
We also had our small businessgoing as well, so I was like,
hey, you know what?
I need?
A high powered PC so then Icould run some high tech machine
in my garage, produce somethings for the business but then
secretly use it for my gaming.
I was also wanting to reconnectwith him on a regular basis

(01:41:48):
because since I've lived out inColorado for the last five years
, I've always disassociatedmyself from friendships, and
that's something I'm working on.
I have a.
I have like three best friendsin St Louis, I have one really
solid best friend in Californiaand then I have a lot of other
actually no, that's not true andI have like four solid best

(01:42:12):
friends in California and then Ihave one solid best friend out
here in Colorado.
These are all the people that Ireally connect with and really
identify with, and they acceptme for who I am through and
through, and they've seen methrough my darkest stuff.
But when you move to a new state, like I did, I had a

(01:42:33):
significant other at the time.
It was five years ago now andwe ended up breaking up really
quickly because of my alcoholism, going our separate ways and
then finding respect and lovefor each other later down the
road, because initially I haveto thank her for getting me on
my path to sobriety.

(01:42:53):
Well, through all of that, Ithen was left with this I'm
alone here in Colorado.
When I met my wife, I wasadopted into her friend group
and adopted into her family,which then obviously later
became my actual family.

(01:43:14):
But initially you feel likeyou're just this weird third
party, third wheel, ineverything that you do.
I still get that sense, evenwith her friends.
I don't know why, it's justsomething that I do.
So my way of curing that waswhen I, with you, identified

(01:43:40):
that we needed to slow down,slow a roll on the podcast, take
a break for a while, giveourselves the mental space we
need and really start focusingon things.
I had good intentions.
My intentions were get intovideo gaming with one of your
really close best friends.
It's very easy to do becauseyou get on a computer and you're

(01:44:03):
instantaneously able to seeeach other.
You're able to chat and Istarted learning so many cool
things about the video gameworld of PC gamers.
Like I know some terminology.
Now, I'm not a pro, but hey,like I know some things a lot
more than I did six, sevenmonths ago, and he taught me all

(01:44:26):
about Discord.
I ended up teaching you aboutDiscord as well, because we were
kind of exploring that as aplatform to host some things in
the future, and I pretty muchthen went down an interesting
road.
My wife joined me.
She got a PC Cassie is who I'mtalking about.

(01:44:49):
She's helped us host a coupleof episodes, and she was a guest
on one of our episodes inseason one, and we built her a
PC, which I got to watch mybuddy teach me how to do that,
which is fantastic, but I she isalso a nursing school, and so

(01:45:11):
she had those priorities and shedidn't forget those priorities
because she doesn't have ADHD,she's a normie, you know.
She is like us, though, so shehas to deal with those things,
but she was able to play gamesfor a little while with us, run
some really cool dungeons andNew World, and we leveled up all

(01:45:35):
our characters together.
It was a fantastic time over thesummer and it was a great way
to save money, because financialstress is another factor that
is just a whole other aspect tothe depths of my despair over
the last six months, and throughthat, I then started to get

(01:46:00):
back into smoking hookah, which,when I was 18 years old, it was
actually a really cool thingfor me and my friends in
California to go to the localhookah bar and smoke hookah, and
actually just legally, with noalcohol.
There might have been, you know, some smoking of us, something

(01:46:21):
other every once in a whilethere as well, but for the most
part we just enjoyed it.
We had a good time on it.
So I just rekindled thatliterally from like I think I'd
stopped smoking hookah at agelike 19.
It only lasted a short periodof time, all the way up until
earlier this year, and I boughtmy own.

(01:46:42):
I actually hooked up the hoseto a microphone stand so then I
could PC game without having tohold on to it.

Speaker 1 (01:46:55):
Leave it to you to figure that out.

Speaker 2 (01:46:59):
Hey, man, don't judge me until all those people are
there, I'm actually impressed.
So I mean, if anybody's lookingfor a hookah solution to their
PC gaming problems, hit me up.

Speaker 1 (01:47:14):
Well, maybe you should market it, maybe that
should be the business.

Speaker 2 (01:47:17):
No, I should not market it.
That should be free to society.
Get yourself a microphone standproblem solved, one that bends.
So I just was doing it, onesie,twosies every now and then, but
then, slowly, I could feel theneural pathways starting to be

(01:47:39):
built again.
And, mind you everybody, I'mstill sober.
Alcohol I am still free fromalcohol.
I'm free from all substances,obviously, other than nicotine
right now, because of Shisha,from hookah and caffeine.
Outside of that, no, I'vemaintained this entire time.

(01:48:01):
I've gone through dark timesbut I have been able to maintain
my sobriety through this bybeing held accountable, and I'm
getting there soon.
I've always had my macro voiceand my macro lens throughout my
entire life and I could alwayssee myself from 80 feet up in

(01:48:24):
the air, if not from outer space, and analyze myself from a
third party's perspective, and Ican see the writing on the wall
and the tools of sobriety.
Even though I wasn't activelyworking them at the time, I
still was in the connection withpeople in recovery.
I would still help people andpeople would help me along the
way.
It's not like I was completelydisengaged.

(01:48:47):
I would be responding to postson the internet.
I'd be trying to help peoplethat would call me and reach out
and say, hey, I need to getinto a treatment center, and
then I would be helping out mybuddy of mine who has been
really struggling a lot latelybut he's finding his way.
So you know, with all of thesefactors at play and financial

(01:49:11):
stress looming over us, I reallyjust wanted to disassociate.
I really wanted to embrace therestless, irritability and
discontentedness that life wasstarting to spiral me into.
And I say life was, I was, Iwas spiraling me into that.
That is me trying to placeblame on something other than
myself.

(01:49:31):
So, through all of that and Iknow this is really long-winded,
but hey, fuck it.
I got to a beautiful place ofmelancholy where my energies

(01:49:53):
allowed me to wake the fuck upand just be okay with not being
okay again.
And you constantly have to shedthis stuff, you constantly have
to shed your shame, and it's anever-ending process because
it's progress, not perfectionfor me and I'm ill-equipped to

(01:50:16):
manage my own brain, which iswhy I started to reach out again
and say, hey, I'm not okay.
You even reached out a coupleof times to me over the last
seven months because you knewthat there was just something
going on.
I had some other people inrecovery reaching out to me as
well and it's so fascinating howquick we are to say I'm good,

(01:50:41):
to say it's all right, it's notthat bad, we downplay it, we
this, we that, because sometimeswhen we just say it like it is,
people do shut us out or doshut us down and those fears can
be confirmed sometimes and it'sreally hard to pick that hard

(01:51:03):
in our lives.
And then my wife and I weregoing through some conflicts,
just fundamental conflicts inour marriage, and I'm not going
to get into all of that stuff,but it was really trying and
really challenging for both ofus and I had to really pick up

(01:51:25):
some recovery books again andreally go back to the basics and
remind myself that, no matterhow far down this road of
recovery I drive, I'm alwaysstill three feet from the ditch,
which will always be right nextto the road.
And it's a little morbid, butit's humbling and it's a
reminder that it doesn't matterhow much time you have, it's

(01:51:49):
subjective.
All I have is this moment andtoday.
And you know, get back to thethings that bring you joy,
authentic joy, and jumping ontrampolines was one of those
things.
Getting out my heelies yeah,that's right.
You know those things that cameout in 2000 or 2001,.
The single wheel on the backheel of a skater shoe.

(01:52:12):
I never stopped riding those,like seriously, I have like two
pair, I think, right now, butonly one pair works.
I broke those bad boys outagain.
I was like, anytime I'm going tothe grocery store for my wife
and for me I shouldn't say Ishouldn't say for my wife

(01:52:34):
Fucking asshole, who the fuck doI think I am?
When I go to the grocery storefor my family God damn it,
taylor, idiot I'm riding my myheelies.
Why?
Because I can do it and it'sfun and it brings me joy and I
can be a little kid again andsurprisingly enough, they're not

(01:52:57):
as dickish to you when you're33 compared to when you're 12.
I got told I couldn't hear youeverywhere when I was 12 years
old.
Now nobody says a damn word tome.
It's beautiful.
Except they do say dude, thoseare here.
Can I get a pair of those?
Where'd you get those?
What website did you get thoseoff of?
Healy's dot com man?
They're still around.
They still exist and I'llalways be worried in those.

(01:53:20):
It's pretty fucking fun.
Cool, awesome man.

Speaker 1 (01:53:24):
Wow, what a story.
But it's a testament to work inthe programs that we both work
and sometimes adjustments haveto be made, sometimes going back
to the beginning in a way, orfinding that foundation again.
That we started finding our wayback to that is super important

(01:53:47):
.
I mean, I kind of went throughnot similar stuff, but I went
through my own journey,especially in spirituality and
also in the part of I am aperfectionist.
I think that everything I do,say whatever, has to be the most

(01:54:11):
perfect.
There's no doubt about it typeof thing, and so I've really
been working on allowing myselfnot to be that and what I've
done is things that I think I'msupposed to do.
Then I don't do them.
I do something else because Idon't want to think I have to do
something.
If I want to take a break andgo do something else, I do that.

(01:54:32):
I really try to dig deep into.
One of the biggest things, too,for me was this gave me a lot
of time to really dig deep intomy own journey and I'm in the
process of making adjustmentswith that.
I haven't pulled the triggeryet, but I've actually talked to
you about some of that.
Our last little sideconversation, probably about a

(01:54:55):
couple of weeks ago or whateverwas a little bit about that and
I'm really kind of and theuniverse is affording me the
opportunity to dig in.
I had a chance in August to go.
There's a place out here it'sin Massachusetts it's called
Kripala Institute.
It is an actual yoga meditationretreat center Cool.

(01:55:20):
And I did that.
I went for four days and didthat and that was fucking
amazing and I'm so glad I did itand what was weird about it?
And you would have to know me,know me really well, know me
really in a lot of differentlevels, to understand where this
is coming from.

(01:55:40):
But for the very first time ina long, long time, as I was
leaving that institute, I feltemotional, like I felt like I
had found something that was soimportant to me, to my being, to
who I want to be.
I mean it was very spiritual.

(01:56:01):
You know, three days.
It was a very spiritual,getting you know, knowing your
body and knowing what it can do,and really getting into
meditation and all of that kindof stuff.
And I walked out there and Ifelt emotional.

Speaker 2 (01:56:15):
Isn't that a good feeling?

Speaker 1 (01:56:17):
It's a great feeling.

Speaker 2 (01:56:18):
It's fleeting.

Speaker 1 (01:56:20):
Yes, yeah, well, and the other thing on top of that.
So the other thing on top ofthat was just recently, this
past week, that's how recentit's been and I felt joy inside
of me for no particular reason,and I, you know, I tried to put

(01:56:41):
a finger on something that I,you know.
I just wish I would.

Speaker 2 (01:56:44):
This sounds really kinky, by the way.

Speaker 1 (01:56:50):
But I wasn't.
It wasn't about somebody Like Ijust started.
I wouldn't even say seeing.
I just met this person who oh,nice she's got, I mean
everything that I'm about.
She's about it 10 times moreand there's just so many kinds
of things that line up from aspiritual perspective with this

(01:57:12):
person.
It wasn't about her.
She's actually out of town.
She was running a retreat inArizona, so she's out of town
for a couple of weeks, so hadnothing to do with her.
It had nothing to do with, youknow, some sort of outside thing
.
And for me it used to alwaysthe joy was always about because
I was around certain people orI was doing certain things.

(01:57:33):
So it was always an activity ora person outside of the
internal part of me that wascreating that feeling.
For the first time, at least inan opportunity where I could
grasp it, I felt joy and that tome, like I think back to the

(01:57:54):
early days of sobriety andrecovery and all of that.
Those are all things I hadheard about.
But I didn't know how peoplegot there and there were a
couple of times that I thought Ihad gotten there but never felt
it the way I felt it a coupleof days ago and it was amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:58:10):
You're reminding me of when I initially got sober.
There was two people I calledthat night when I contemplated
pulling out my gun and puttingit to my head, not because I
wanted to commit suicide, butbecause I wanted the ringing in

(01:58:32):
my ears to please shut the fuckup.
After four days of new sleepand I couldn't sleep on my back
anymore because my liver enzymeswere elevated, my kidneys were
really sore and inflamed andgoing to the bathroom was a shit
show.
So I called two people I calledmy dad and I called my best

(01:58:57):
friend in California, dustin,and one could not come out for
seven days and the other onecouldn't come out for like a
month.
So my dad came out after sevendays and I started working
program of AA and I startedlistening to the recovery

(01:59:22):
elevator podcast and those weremy two elixirs to help.
I got sponsorship within twoweeks and off to the races.
Well, about a month later mybest friend is able to fly out
and hang out with me and he wasonly in town.

(01:59:42):
I can't remember how many daysit was probably like four or
five days but I remember usgetting in my forerunner and
heading up towards Morrison, theRed Rocks area, to go on a
really short hike just aroundthe Morrison area and I can tell

(02:00:07):
you, between stoplight A andstoplight B, I'll never forget
an overwhelming sensation of joyI had that it sucks because you
remember it so well, because itdoesn't fucking happen.

(02:00:28):
And I want more of that.
You know, I want to pursue thatshit and the authenticity
behind it, the capacity to beempathetic and the allowance of

(02:00:48):
a male to be able to feel andexpress themselves in such a way
.
Did he know it in that moment?
Fuck, no, could I have told him100 percent?
We are the two best friends thatwill always hang up the phone
and say and I love you, I loveyou too.
We do that, that and we're just.
We fucking love each other andthat's the way the cookie
crumbles and I will always sayit.

(02:01:10):
But I, you know, masculinitystill plays a part, and I'm only
bringing this up because that'sthe last, one of the last
moments.
But it's very profound momentfor me that I always reference
back to when people say whenpeople talk like this, like

(02:01:30):
you're talking right now, and Ilove it, it brings me joy
actually, which is great, atleast closer to it, and so that
makes me feel good for you, man,like that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (02:01:43):
Well, you know the thing and that I mean that
explanation and what you know,what you were feeling is very
similar to kind of what I felt.
And the big thing was and thisis something I think in coming
into sobriety I did not have wasa, was, a love for myself, was

(02:02:05):
was realizing I was okay the wayit was.
I didn't need to change forpeople, I didn't have to have
everything figured out.
I didn't, you know, and Ineeded to to grow up.
You know, I just had not grownup.
I drug my last year of collegewith me and had this perpetual
idea that college existed, atleast in my mind, forever and

(02:02:27):
ever and ever, and it was onebig happy fraternity party 24,
seven at least in my brain and Ihad to grow up from all that
stuff.
And it feels like that, as I'vematured and grown up on a lot
of levels with stuff.

(02:02:48):
That that's where the joy isstarting to happen is the idea
that I'm coming Into my own,coming into who I need to be as
a person, and or not need to bewhat, but who I want to be.
That's not what I meant notneed to be, but who I want to be
as a person and I am so okaywith not being perfect.

(02:03:10):
I am so okay and in fact, like Imentioned this, new situations
come up.
So she's out of town for twoweeks.
I just use this as an example.
In the old days, even as earlyas it is, and we've literally
only known each other maybe fourweeks, I would start tripping

(02:03:31):
on the fact she was out of townfor two weeks and I would make
up stories in my head about how,you know, I wasn't liked or she
wasn't really into it becauseshe didn't do this and she
didn't do that and all thisother bullshit.
And that's the way that I usedto roll and I felt that coming
on early on, like in the firstday or two I started, I was like

(02:03:54):
whoa, wait a second, where areyou taking me?
This fucked up mind of mind,because we're not going to do
that.
And then, all of a sudden,there was peace and like I just
felt peace and I was like I'mokay and this is all okay and
there's nothing that I need tobe worried about here.
There's nothing I need to beconcerned about.
I in myself, I'm still who I amand I'm okay and I'm doing well

(02:04:18):
and I just need to keep movingforward and that's what I've
been doing and it's such a great.
I am one of these people andprobably you might be as well
where I can do all the fuckingreading in the world.
I can spew knowledge to youleft or right.
I can sound like on thispodcast or anywhere.

(02:04:39):
You might hear me talk aboutrecovery Like my God, this
fucking guy's got it figured out.
That's the intellectual part ofme, the emotional part of me,
that has to actually apply.
This shit struggles, you know,and really has a hard time when
those emotions kind of start toget in the way, and I've been

(02:04:59):
really trying to lean on mymeditation and lean on the idea
of emotions are going to comeand they're okay.
Let them go, though they don'thave to rule your life.
You know you can move forward,and so that's been a big part of
it.
On top of that too and I justthrow this in as a tidbit
because this is recovery Idecided to get a therapist and I

(02:05:24):
just started with him a coupleof a couple of sessions ago.
So we've only had a couple ofsessions, but I'm working on
some stuff in therapy.

Speaker 2 (02:05:32):
So I think recovery in general is constant work, and
it's a constant Um rework.
In a sense.
You're always needing to growmore.
Staying stagnant is dangerous,and that's kind of what I've
learned through this entireprocess, and I've said it before

(02:05:52):
and I'll say it again I seem tolearn the same.
I relearn the same five thingsevery year.
I learned how to be nice topeople all over again.
I learned that I suck atfinances.
Who doesn't?
Well, you know?
I learned that I don't knoweverything, and I learned to be

(02:06:17):
gentle and kind, and then Ilearned to get outside of myself
and get to being of service.
And I will forget them December31st and I will start the
relearning process January 1st.
That's not true, but it's arunning joke inside my own mind,
right, and I really like allthe things that you had to say.

(02:06:40):
You know, when we're talkingabout the development of new
relationships or when we wereknown to do X and Y situation
and identifying things that wecan change and modify, which to
you sounds like letting go,letting go of these paradigms

(02:07:02):
that we've written for ourselves, these stories.
We've told ourselves that ifthis situation occurs, I respond
like this the world works likethis Society is going to always
do this.
These are all paradigms, theseare all preconceived transcripts
that we wrote about our ownlives, and it is shedding those,

(02:07:24):
getting rid of them, but thennot judging them at the same
time, and not not judging them,letting them go, which is the
weirdest place to be, and itonly exists when you don't talk
about it, right?

(02:07:44):
So it's so profound and it'ssomething I've been focusing on
a lot lately myself, just tryingto be yes, not be more, not be
less, but to be and allow thetransient thoughts to be

(02:08:11):
transient.
They are traversing across mybrain and they can go and they
can flow, but then playing,paying closer attention to the
authentic thoughts and the onesthat lead me to the eventual
phrase of I know who I am, andthe I am is not this meat suit

(02:08:38):
that I walk around in, or thevocal cords I use, or the
borrowed atoms that manifestedthemselves over billions of
years ago that I'm borrowingright now to create my hands.
The I am is this eternal energygoing through a temporary human

(02:08:59):
experience and the joy ofgetting a superpower called
perception.
I get to perceive the universe,I get to witness it, I get to
be a part of it, I get tocontribute to it, and all of
those are started with I getinstead of I have to, I must,
this is a demand of society, allof those negative terminologies

(02:09:22):
that then poison my own brainand lead me to a shorter
existence.
I, those are the paradigms thatI'm trying to get to.
Those are the paradigms thatare getting shifted.
Those are the things that we'retalking about in that building
of the new relationship thatyou're experiencing right now is
those paradigm shifts.
I get versus I get to verse Ihave to or I could hyper focus

(02:09:47):
on this, or I can let it go andlet it flow.

Speaker 1 (02:09:51):
Oh man, I love all of that.
That's like right, right up myalley and I would actually go.
When you said I am, I almostfelt like stop right there,
because that's it, it's I am.
The moment you start adding toI am, you're building a
construct of yourself, that's animage in your brain.
If you're just, I am almost, ifyou can almost, in my opinion,

(02:10:13):
if you can almost do, I ameverything, that's more real
because you're part of theenergy field, of everything.
And Tara Brock wrote a book Ihave not read it, I am getting
it next but it's called RadicalAcceptance and I've heard her
talk about excerpts out of itand she's commented about what

(02:10:35):
radical I mean the words, kindof you get it from the words.
But radical acceptance,radically accepting where I'm at
and letting it be what it isand then going from there.
So, versus trying to make itsomething that I want it to be,
I'm going to radically acceptwhat it is and then I'm going to

(02:10:58):
figure out from there how do Imanage that acceptance?
You know what, whatever thatmight be, how do I manage that
acceptance?
So if somebody is saying, forinstance, we'll use a
relationship, hey, I don't wantto talk to you anymore.
You know I'm done.
Accept the fact that that iswhat's happening and then decide

(02:11:20):
what you are going to do aboutit within yourself, not with
that other person.
Not that you're going to try tofix that necessarily.
Maybe you do, but maybe youdon't.
Maybe you'll let it be what itis, but it's through the
allowing yourself to experienceRight, right.

Speaker 2 (02:11:43):
So, like you can radically accept something.
I radically accept that thefucking dude across the street
is gonna beat that woman and I'mradically accepting that you
can easily argue.
Well, I'm not gonna fuckingradically accept that.
No, I'm gonna probably go overthere and try and help, but
that's.
I don't think what we'rereferring to.

(02:12:04):
In this situation, you'reallowing the universe to exist
the way that it is, for it'sgood, it's bad, it's right, it's
wrong.
Not saying you don't takeaction to it.
Right, it's not without action.
Responding to your own self,your own boundaries, your own
morals, your own beliefs is 100%within line of that concept.

(02:12:29):
I haven't read the book, but Ifeel like it needs to be said,
because that's always a blurredline Whenever I talk about
acceptance in general, of thatargument being presented back to
me.
Well, what if there's a gunmanacross the street and you just
accept him killing people?

Speaker 1 (02:12:46):
No, and that's not what it's talking about.
But you're right, and exceptit's more internal, it's more
radically accepting where you'reat in that moment.

Speaker 2 (02:12:59):
So the energy flows within yourself.

Speaker 1 (02:13:01):
Right, not the external consequences.
Right the fact that I mean,listen, we live in a world today
where people don't wanna talkabout things.
I grew up with a family withparents that if they didn't talk
about things, that didn't exist.
So when you can radicallyaccept that, hey, there's a
problem in this family, we needto talk about it.
All right, that's true, that'sreal.

(02:13:21):
So what are we gonna talk aboutto try to change that Versus
ignoring that it's going on andjust let it perpetuate for
however many more years that youlet it perpetuate?
And I'm talking about hardcorestuff, like a parent being an
alcoholic, a parent having angerissues towards other family

(02:13:44):
members and not talking to themor including them in the lives
of their own kids becausethey're angry at them.

Speaker 2 (02:13:50):
Yeah, we don't talk about blah.
We don't talk about dad.
Dad's in the garage drinking.
Again, right, you know?
Right, we don't talk about that.
He's out there.
We know he's out there.
He knows he's out there.
Everybody in the house knowshe's out there.
Isn't dad in the garagedrinking?

Speaker 1 (02:14:14):
Yeah, no he's not.

Speaker 2 (02:14:15):
I mean he is, but he doesn't count Right.
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:14:21):
So then we tiptoe around all those things and we
pretend that they don't existand we try to live a false life,
a false family life that hasthis in it that nobody's
addressing, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:14:34):
It's very ingrained passive behavior that can get
developed in those situations.
Absolutely.
And yeah, I think the path ofletting go right, I even think
what Dow the Dow translates tothe way, the way in which we go

(02:15:01):
Right.
The sentence ends there.
The second I define it, anymoreI'm screwing it up.
So I think over the last sevenmonths there's been a lot of
deep, deep exploration, andphrases like it's always darkest
before the dawn come to mind.

(02:15:21):
They're a little cliche, butthis is way better than what I
already know I would be doinggoing back out and drinking,
going back out and trying tonumb out.
And don't get me wrong, yeah, Ilike to smoke hookah.

(02:15:42):
It's not right, but I'll takeit, at least for now, way over
going and doing the harder stuff.
That I know will end me on away shorter path and I know I
can work on the hookah thing.
The whole point of me eventalking about it is because

(02:16:05):
that's accountability.
I have been going back andseeing my therapist as well and
having fantastic conversationswith him and I constantly have
to shed myself of this stuff andno matter how many times I fuck
up financially, no matter howmany times I fuck up with hookah
or whatever.

(02:16:27):
Surprisingly enough, I still atleast have my priorities enough
well in mind to maintain mysobriety, and I think a lot of
that contributes to keeping incontact with like-minded
individuals and being heldaccountable, connecting with
other people and allowing themto know what my current

(02:16:50):
struggles are, and allowingpeople to corral around you to
say it's okay to not be okay,you can go through this.
But then also having the reallycool friends that say, all
right, yeah, it's okay to not beokay, but get the fuck up
asshole.
There's the thin line therebetween how much do I allow you

(02:17:11):
to sit in bed and sulk and whendo I kick you in the ass, and so
it's always good to have bothtypes of friends at your side,
which is what I've had toinclude my wife.
She's been both.

Speaker 1 (02:17:23):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean the same for me.
I listen, I still smoke pot andI don't, because I kind of grew
up in this world of sobrietywhere I looked at what was the
thing that was causing me theproblem, and the thing that was
causing me the problem wasalcohol.
Now, does that mean that myattitude towards smoking pot

(02:17:47):
hasn't changed?
It has, and my big thing aboutit is I'm very, very leery of it
going down the wrong road.
If it does go down the wrongroad, then I would immediately
say done enough.
It has not.
Still doesn't mean that I'm notthinking about the idea that

(02:18:09):
maybe I should.
Just, I'm kind of at a placenow where it doesn't matter
anymore.
It's not really important to mebecause with everything I'm
doing, and especially thephysical part of what I'm trying
to do, I just feel like that issomething that for me, probably
will be let go of soon enough.

Speaker 2 (02:18:32):
Well, and I think that you know, with regards to
like substances like marijuana,where it's pretty blaringly
obvious that it's gonna belegalized pretty soon here, and
regardless of what you thinkpersonally on recreational use,

(02:18:54):
purely focusing on the medicalside of the fence, leaps and
bounds of information out thereand more research to be done on
the medical benefits of usingsuch a thing To me.
You know people who can consumethat currently self-diagnosing
in a sense, because you can'treally get the medical advice

(02:19:17):
you need to take itappropriately.
The research isn't all done yeton a federal level, I mean
locally.
You can get it prescribed to.
Yes, it's similar to takingibuprofen, it's similar to and

(02:19:37):
don't quote me on this stuff,guys- I'm still just a fucking
drunk idiot.
But what I'm getting at is yourjourney is yours Right?
My journey is mine.
The second I try and control.
Your journey is the second.
I'm fucking at my own Right.
And love and acceptance,tolerance and patience, kindness

(02:19:59):
is all part of my program and Ifully think that you know
you're gonna explore what you'regonna explore.
That's your journey and it's abeautiful thing and I'm all for
it.
And I think that the less weforce on other people our own

(02:20:23):
opinions about the definition ofwhat recovery and sobriety is,
the more we're able to filleveryone's cups with more love
and acceptance, cause it's justI think it's just way more of an
appropriate thing.
Sorry if it sounded like aweird tangent.

Speaker 1 (02:20:45):
Well, no, no, because .
Well, because you bring up acouple of points.
That and why I brought it upwas, first and foremost,
listeners out there to go ohwait, so I gotta stop everything
to get sober.
Well, I don't know if I wannado that.
So I want the listeners to knowthat, hey, there's different
pathways to how you get sober.

(02:21:06):
You know how you decide or howyou define sobriety.
Maybe that's probably evenbetter If it keeps you, if what
you're doing is helping you.
So if quitting alcohol was yourmain thing but you still smoke
pot or you know whatever, andthat helps you, when you're able
to move forward and you're ableto be positive and your life is

(02:21:28):
able to grow and expand and doall the things that we hope
happens in a sobriety situation,then who am I to tell you
you're wrong?
You know I'm not that person.
Secondly, the reason why youbrought it up was so, here you
talked about hookah and youdefined it and it's tobacco.
But the moment you said it wastobacco, probably most people go

(02:21:51):
oh, it's only tobacco, oh, okay, which is ironic, which should
be way more high on the scheduleof drugs than marijuana in my
personal opinion, along withalcohol.

Speaker 2 (02:22:08):
Alcohol should probably be a schedule and drug.
No medical benefit and no usein a society.
Is a schedule and drug.
There is medical benefit toalcohol, sadly, but yeah, no use
in a society.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's anextremist view, but that's
because I'm sober.
Let me be biased, fuck you.

Speaker 1 (02:22:29):
But I do think that one of the things that I had to
really do was, first off,realize that I'm not perfect and
that I don't need to be perfectto work a program.
I don't need to be perfect toget better.
I can get better without beingperfect.

(02:22:49):
It's not about all or nothing,and I've been really, really
trying in the last almost fiveyears now to get away from the
idea of I have to be perfect orI can't do this.
And that goes for everything inmy life, not just my journey in
recovery, but in everythingthat I do.
I don't go after anything nowwith like oh I can do that

(02:23:11):
perfect, so I'm gonna go do it.
Oh, I'm not gonna do thatperfectly, so I'm not gonna do
it.
I do shit that turns out lookweird, but I like doing it and I
just did it and I'm okay withit.
And I think that we have to asa society, we live too much
within these blurred lines noteven blurred lines, very strict

(02:23:34):
lines of here's who you'resupposed to be, and if you can't
be that person, then you can'tplay, you're not allowed in the
game.

Speaker 2 (02:23:42):
Well, and yeah, and it takes an alcoholic to come up
, or a drug ear and alcoholic tocome up with a phrase like that
.
Right when we're extremistswe're all or nothingists right
so leave it up to us to be likeoh, you are going in smoking
weed.
You're not sober at allwhatsoever.

(02:24:03):
You can unsubscribe right now.
We don't wanna see you backhere again until you're 100%
sober, off of everything.
If you're using mouthwash thathas hints of alcohol in it,
you're pretty much fucked.
You might as well just go tohell right now.

Speaker 1 (02:24:18):
And don't come back.

Speaker 2 (02:24:19):
Yeah, you might as well just go back out and drink,
or if you drink, kombucha,right?
Because, that contains alcoholand it's a little bit
unregulated.

Speaker 1 (02:24:29):
We could have a whole discussion on that.

Speaker 2 (02:24:31):
Maybe we should do that on episode two, but I love
this though, eric.
I really do.
I think it's.
All.
These things are the raw thingsthat I think people don't like
to talk about in open forums and, honestly, thank you, sir, for
bringing up some of theseconversations, because that's
the point of this is being ableto shed our shame, have

(02:24:53):
conversations that are raw andbe able to learn from each other
and to be able to say thingsthat we change our minds on
tomorrow who fucking knows why?
Because this is an exploration,and who knows what tomorrow is
gonna bring.
My brain has changed 80 milliontimes, if not more, since the

(02:25:17):
start of this conversation, solet alone my lifetime, and
that's because I'm constantlytrying to analyze and interpret
the world, and as newinformation comes in, I can
change my mind.

Speaker 1 (02:25:32):
Or just.

Speaker 2 (02:25:33):
And that's something I feel like society has
forgotten a little bit is youhave the ability to change your
mind.

Speaker 1 (02:25:37):
Well, right, and just simply listening and being open
to the listening process andnot judging immediately, which
we all do on all facets of theworld.
And I really think, the momentsomebody's telling you that, oh,
you're not doing everything,well then you're not sober that
person is using their ego tocondemn you number one and

(02:26:01):
number two.
It's not up to them to makethat decision.
Whether you are sober enough tobe part of the tribe, it's up
to you.
You need, if you are, ifwhatever it is you're doing is
working and keeping you movingforward in the right way in my

(02:26:22):
opinion, then keep doing what'sworking.

Speaker 2 (02:26:26):
And I will always give the flip coin to whatever
we're talking about and say that, if you need a fucking strong,
stern, kick in the ass and getyourself a good Bible thumb, big
book thumper not Bible thumper,but big book thumper get
yourself a good, strong sponsorthat says no, motherfucker, you
ain't doing shit anymore.
This is the way you're gonnawalk, this is how you're gonna

(02:26:46):
talk, this is how you're gonnado shit moving forward.
Why?
Because you haven't been ableto make a goddamn decision in
your whole fucking life and youneed some fucking structure.
That's okay too.
Yeah, absolutely, because thatis what I needed, and I can't
knock the person who needs whatyou need, just like you can't
knock the person that needs whatI need, and it depends person

(02:27:09):
to person.
Some people need that allowance,they need to explore, they need
to figure things out forthemselves, and, in all honesty,
there isn't one right answer tothis, because there are people
out there that can do X, y andjust not Z, and there are people
out there who can't do anythingat all whatsoever, to include
the mouthwash.
So, at the end of the day,though, we have to be open and

(02:27:34):
honest with ourselves, becausenobody gets us fucking sober.
We have to come to theconclusion for ourselves, and I
think that's ultimately a reallycool thing.
Once we make that decision,lower those energies of our
addiction and start risingourselves up to the potential

(02:27:56):
that exists all around us theability to perceive this
universe for a short period oftime on a rock that is moving
billions of miles an hour,heading towards a black hole
following a sun.

Speaker 1 (02:28:10):
Okay, so I've got a question for you.

Speaker 2 (02:28:12):
Hey, wait, I didn't finish my thought god damn it.

Speaker 1 (02:28:14):
I'm like, okay, I know we're going deeper to that
dark hole, let's just talk.
I'm teasing, I'm like I can'tgo to the dark hole.
Yeah, but I do have a questionfor you because I know my answer
and I think I might know whatyour answer might be.
In the last seven months, doyou feel like that you have done

(02:28:35):
work and have grown?
Just simple yes or no?
Yes, yes, I agree.
I feel like I'm the same.
The only reason I asked thatquestion and hopefully, as the
listeners are listening is thisIf you are working, and working,
a program means everything.
So you're working.

(02:28:56):
It could be your spirituality,it could be your physicality.
Maybe you decide, hey, I'mgoing to start eating, right,
I'm going to try to startwalking every day, or whatever
it might be.
It could be any of those things, even if you're not sober yet,
even if you're just sober,curious.
But working things and gettingbetter every day is what this is
all about you know and again.

(02:29:16):
you know, and you can do that,and you could be on the verge of
saying, hey, I'm done drinking.
So you might be sitting herelistening to this saying, okay,
I'm really thinking about it,but I haven't pulled the trigger
yet.
But maybe you're alreadystarting to eat better, Maybe
you've cut back a tiny bit,Maybe you, you know, you're
trying to get involved in thingsyou used to get involved in
before or whatever.

(02:29:37):
You're trying to do positivethings in your life.
You're already working aprogram.
You may not be totally done,but you're working a program.
And for all those out therethat are on day one for the
thousand time, you're stillworking a program, You're still
making it happen.
It's taking you time to getthere, but you're getting there.
And that's the whole point inall of this.
And I think what we weresharing today on this it was our

(02:30:01):
point about this is yeah, justdo the work, whatever that means
.
You know, do the work to getbetter as a person.

Speaker 2 (02:30:10):
I think that's brilliant, eric, and I think
that's a good segue into aconclusion for episode one of
season two of sober andshameless.
I couldn't agree more.
I think that, to all of thoselistening out there, to those
that listen through season one,thank you, thank you, thank you.

(02:30:30):
The individuals out therestruggling on day one, the
people out there who arestruggling on day 10,001.
Right.
Yeah 20 years of sobriety.
I think that's it.
That's what that is.
Um, it's fucking hard.

(02:30:53):
There's no, there's, there's,there's no way to get around it,
other than what I've beentrying to practice lately Is let
go of the feeling of wanting toquit and not wanting to quit.
Letting go of it, because whatI've learned up until now is the

(02:31:20):
more I hold on to what I desire, which is not necessarily
sobriety anymore, because it'sother things.
Insert X here If it is.
I desire sobriety and I'm onday 1000 and I'm batting one day
.
The desire is the issue and Ineed to let that go.

(02:31:47):
I need to quit resisting theflow of life, and that does not
mean give into temptation.
It means to let temptation goas well.
You're letting all of it go andflow and allow the universe to
exist.
So I feel like this second halfof the episode got really woo

(02:32:12):
woo on us there, man.

Speaker 1 (02:32:16):
I listen, I'm okay.

Speaker 2 (02:32:17):
I feel like I need a light of fucking candle or some
shit.
I don't fucking know man, do Ineed to cleanse myself?
Yes, yes, you do.

Speaker 1 (02:32:25):
I think I farted Well for some people I'd be
cleansing.
So to each his own right Toeach his own.
That's what we're talking aboutDude.

Speaker 2 (02:32:37):
I think this is a great episode of episode one.
Thank you to all our listeners.
We love you all very much.
And, in the spirit of seasontwo, we do not know when our
next episode is going to beairing, and that's okay with us,
because we're going to let thatfucking shit go and flow down

(02:32:58):
the river.
I had a huge issue with it onseason one of being super
consistent and trying to hold astandard to compare myself with
other sober podcasts that arefantastic, brilliant individuals
and they're amazing people.
I am not them and I am who I am.

(02:33:19):
I am Right, eric, I am, and Ithink you and I briefly
discussed this before, but weneed to be authentic to
ourselves.
So we will release episodes, wepromise and we will be back and
we will be adding new funcontent along the way, but don't

(02:33:42):
fucking ask me when.

Speaker 1 (02:33:46):
And I think that was meant towards me as much as
towards all of you.
So, eric, I won't, but I agreeand yeah, we're trying.
Listen, sometimes you got togive yourself a break and
sometimes, you know, when we getcaught up in the minutiae of
it's got to be this way or elsetype of thing we're just fucking

(02:34:10):
ourselves is what we're doing,you know, and it doesn't work.
And and the whole idea of allthis was was one to come in, you
know, just just talk and to toreally show, you know, everybody
kind of the raw footage of whatit's like to be in this world

(02:34:32):
and and what it's like to besober in the working processes
on a daily basis.
They're not always pretty andthey're not always perfect and
they're not always you know.
Oh, we're going in a row, we'regoing in the right way, la la
lies and everything great.
You know, sometimes it's hard,sometimes it's a struggle,
sometimes we get plateaued andwe have to, we have to just sit

(02:34:55):
there for a while and until wefigure it out, and that's all
good.
That's part of the that's partof all of this.
So I'm glad that the listenerswere here today, I'm glad that
we were able to do this contentand definitely there'll be more
to come, but we just don't knowwhen.

Speaker 2 (02:35:14):
Stay tuned.
Hey, wait in the words of themilitary stand by to stand by.
There's more coming your way.

Speaker 1 (02:35:23):
Love you, guys, yeah.

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