September 30, 2025 • 32 mins
This Sober Town Podcast episode features Gary Menkes (19 years sober) discussing spirituality in recovery. Both Gary and host Peanut, raised Catholic, explore how surrendering to a higher power became essential to their sobriety. Gary emphasizes there's no single "right way" to approach spirituality in recovery and advocates for unity among different recovery methods. He shares his daily prayer practice and describes his transformation from expecting an early death to having more dreams and ambitions at 51 than ever before, crediting his spiritual growth and recovery work for opening doors to personal development and a purpose-driven life focused on helping others.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Sober Town Podcast.
Let's hop on that sober train and ride into the wonderful, magical world of sobriety.
Hey everybody, it's Peanut here today and I am thrilled to be back on the Sober Town Podcast.
(00:20):
We are starting a new series called Spirituality and Sobriety.
For my first guest, this series is the incredible amazing Gary Minkes.
He is the Begin Again podcast.
He's also the founder of Recover Apparel.
And I have Gary here because I've been on his podcast and he is instrumental to the recovery community and I know that he is a man that uses Spirit.
(00:55):
Or Gary, do you, you prefer to use God? Do you subscribe to No.
Kind of all the above.
Definitely spirituality.
God, definitely.
God for me.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Spirituality I think is, uh, it's kind of all the above.
It's kind of both.
I don't want kind of like that kind of grayish beau.
It's a beautiful grayish area.
It's one of those things that, as I've been.
(01:18):
Talking to people about recovery.
There's some people who are very into using the label of God, I pray, I speak to God, I go to church.
And then there's other people who say, Hey, I found a different level of spirituality than what I learned growing up.
So Gary, if you would take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself when you first got sober.
(01:43):
Give us some of the high points and then, uh, we'll start in on all the good stuff.
It's so good to be here.
And I gotta say one thing that I actually I, not that I forgot, but it's been almost two years since I was on sober Town, and the first podcast that I ever did as a guest was with Drifter and it was on Sober town.
(02:04):
And in fact, whenever.
Friends or family or, or people I've met.
Hey, what's a guy? I want to hear your story.
I direct them to episode, I think it's three 16 of Sober Town.
Yep.
Um, with Drifter, because that was, uh, that was my first, you know, sort of live podcast.
It was, and you know, I love the guy.
We hit it off like right away and I think we did it super early in the morning.
(02:28):
Right.
'cause I know his schedule is, is a little wild.
And he is like, can you do it at five in the morning? I'm like, yeah, that, that's perfect time for, for me.
So I.
That's my kind of big intro to say it's really good to be back here.
And then you and I hit it off, uh, a couple months after that, after that first year, we, you and I known each other going on well over a year now, year and a half at least.
(02:49):
And I, you know, I celebrated, you probably know, we celebrated 19 years of sobriety in May, uh, was my 19th year.
And if you knew me.
You know, 19 plus years ago, I would've been the last person voted, uh, on the island, so to speak, to, to find sobriety, and that's the best thing.
That never happened to me.
I was, uh, I was on a completely different path.
(03:10):
I got in a lot of trouble early on.
I've been through a lot like we all have.
But now I found this community.
I started this podcast two years ago and heard terms that I never heard before, like recover out loud.
And I was like, yeah, like that really.
Hit me.
Like it really, 'cause that's how I started.
That was the idea of the podcast.
I was in the meeting and I was like, but more than 20 something people in this church basement can benefit to hear these incredible messages and these incredible comeback stories.
(03:38):
And that's kind of how it, it was launched.
And my, one of my favorite terms now is recover out loud so others don't have to suffer in silence.
And, uh, it's, uh, get to meet people like you.
Not only just meet and have, do podcasts together, but to make real relationships with just incredible people like yourself.
So I'm grateful to be here and I'm flattered that you invited me for this new series.
(03:59):
It's, I'm looking forward to it.
Well, I'm excited because I know you and I, and again, attributing our meeting to Drifter.
He said, this is a guy you've gotta meet.
You guys are really gonna hit it off.
And as I always say, drifters the one guy if his.
Name comes up on my phone, I pick it up.
Yeah.
And he's become a big brother to me, so when he says I'm gonna hit it off of somebody I know he's on point and meeting you.
(04:22):
We just had a, a great chat and really covered a lot of things.
Literally, you were the first person who popped to mind when I started to think about spirituality and sobriety.
Yeah.
And so, uh, I know you've, you're 19 years sober.
Were you raised? Re I I don't know if we should use religious, spiritual, I mean, I could say I am, I was raised Catholic.
Right.
I'm a recovering Catholic in more ways than one.
(04:45):
And, uh, so were you raised, um.
In, in the church as a believer.
Yeah.
I, I'm a Catholic too, you know, I, I grew up on Long Island.
I, I think I was kind of, um, you know, kind of normal.
Like, you know, we, we had to go to church on Sundays and sometimes we snuck out and sometime, you know, we had to.
The envelope and bring the envelope to the church.
(05:06):
And sometimes I was the one, like I was with my older cousins and I dropped the envelope off and then we kind of sneak out the side door and like go play stickball.
But no, I was grew, I grew up Catholic too.
I wasn't, you know, I wouldn't say I was super religious at all, but I did always have a relationship with God, with a God of my understanding.
You know, I think what we were talking about even off the top is, you know, I, I think there's a difference.
(05:30):
At least when you're coming into sobriety, be between religion and spirituality, you know? Right.
I think that's probably where people, I, I think from, at least the experience I've had where people could, could potentially have a little clash and, and get a little confused, you know? And early on for me, I, I never had a, I, I always believed in a higher power.
(05:50):
I was.
Classic, you know, foxhole prayer guy.
But I really believed, and I really believed I had a relationship with, with, with my God and my understanding.
But when I came in, you know, I, I was like a lot of people, I was like, what is this? Some kind of religious cult, like, what's going on? And as you know, and you know, AA is where I got sober and I'm still very active in AA and I love AA and saved my life.
(06:12):
And I'm also in the camp.
You know, I don't care how you get here.
There's, there's a lot of different ways to get here.
And so, however you get here and you're here.
God bless you.
I'm so happy that you're here.
If someone asks me how I got sober, I'm gonna tell my story and it's say, hey.
And I remember early on, you know, someone said like, don't worry so much about all the God part.
You know, like, you know, you can, you can make the meeting your higher power at the beginning.
(06:37):
And you know, that first year for me, you know, I lived in New York City and all it was, you know, looking back, I say this a lot, looking at that first year.
All that New York City has and New York City has to offer the most amazing thing for me for sobriety.
You know, you can get to a meeting 24 hours a day, uh, around the clock in New York City.
And that's all I did that first year was, was go to work.
(06:58):
I barely held onto the job.
I was out, I did held onto it, and.
They gave out the pamphlets and I, I went to a meeting, um, every day sometimes too.
And that looking back, you know, that was such a beautiful year.
But, you know, as far as I, I think I, I never really, religion and, and spirituality, it's all for me.
I think it's different for, for each person and, and can be different for every, for all of us.
(07:22):
I think that's, that's the important part.
There's no one way to do it.
But for me, I started praying on my knees every morning.
It was said, Hey man, put your shoes underneath your bed.
And I said, why? They said, because the first thing you're gonna do is hit it in your knees and you're gonna ask God of your end understanding, whoever it may be.
They didn't force any kind of God on me, whatever I wanted it to be.
(07:45):
And they said, ask.
Ask him to keep you sober today.
And peanut, I went on my knees 19 years ago and I said, God, please gimme the gift of sobriety today.
And he said, if you do, if you don't make it through the day and you don't drink today.
At the end of the day, get back on your knees and thank him for giving that gift of sobriety.
And let me tell you, I went through that first day and I went.
Holy cow.
I think that may have worked that I didn't drink today.
(08:07):
That's amazing.
And I thanked him.
And that's part of my prayers today.
That's part of my morning prayers and my evening prayers every single day.
It's part of my, it's evolved and there's a lot of gratitude now and Yeah.
Wanna talk about, uh, Catholic, you know, I, the, our father is big part of my prayers too, but like, it could be, uh, whatever makes, whatever you're comfortable with, you know, I think we get in trouble where.
(08:29):
People like, no, this is the way you have to do it.
There's no like right or wrong way to do it.
We're here to stay sober and to improve our lives and to improve our family's lives at the end of the day.
So this is this, I say all this and this roundabout kind of blabbering way.
I'm sorry I'm talking so much, but you know, spirituality is what I chase today.
Peanut like that is what I like, really love.
(08:51):
Spirituality means so much to me.
There's so, it's such a big, huge umbrella for me.
So I'm wondering, uh, and I, I, I feel like our Catholic mothers are like, yes, we did it.
Um, and like he got on his knees.
That's exactly what we wanted.
All those, all those years in the pews.
You know, I'm curious, when you were using and in the throes of your addiction, did you find yourself, did you drift away from your higher power? I, I said I was a big box hole prayer guy, and I wasn't very accountable to those prayers.
(09:24):
God, get me outta this one.
I promise won't.
Please get me outta this one.
Please get me home tonight.
Mm.
And do the very same thing the very next night.
And I'd say kind of the same prayers.
And I knew I was, I was a fraud.
Where I got further away from God of my understanding was, you know, I, things went darker and darker and darker.
Darker.
And, and, um.
(09:46):
My morals, uh, my moral compass kept getting worse and worse and worse.
And I mean, I was in places and situations that I never thought I would put myself in.
And, you know, there I was.
So that's the, in a way, the further away I got to that, the, you know, the, we such a, a group of people.
I believe that.
We're so down on ourselves as it is, and it's like, it's such just a compound effect.
(10:10):
And everything that we're putting in our bodies is making us feel worse and worse and worse, and we don't want to feel, so we keep drinking or drugging so we don't feel for a little while, and then we come to a little bit and we feel even worse, and maybe we're getting in trouble, maybe we're arrested, whatever it may be, and it just compounds.
So like, yeah, in that sense, I'm getting further and further away because yeah, I, I did have moral compass where I knew.
(10:32):
What's right or wrong? I shouldn't be doing this.
This is not right, and you still go and do it.
Right? And but also the flip side is when I found that sobriety, like I said, you know, now I, I wasn't doing those prayers in the morning.
Now I, he said, put God first.
Putting my sobriety first is for me, is putting God first.
Today I have a relationship, like a really good relationship with my higher power.
(10:56):
I believe my higher power, my, well for me again, is God.
Is within me.
And you know, that's a beautiful thing.
That's something I've been doing a lot lately and like right before it came on here, please speak through me.
Let's help some people listening.
Let me, let me help Dana any way I can.
Please let me help her show.
Let's help people listening.
But then it's like, well, my higher power rests inside me.
(11:17):
Then there's really, you know, the sky really is the limit and there's nothing we can't not do.
We can do whatever we put our hearts to.
You're getting me a little misty over here.
Gary, I lo I love to hear you speak about it because I can hear your passion.
I just adore and cherish your, your honesty and your realness, because I know for some, some, especially in the recovery community, it's, there's almost two different camps.
(11:42):
Mm.
The AA camp, they're religious, they're into God and then the spiritual camp.
Right.
But the way that you speak of it is.
As you said, that kinda that gray area, it's all encompassing and we all believe in something bigger than ourselves.
We, and for me, it's having something that I can, and, and this may be more of a Catholic thing to say, it's something to almost place my burdens on and say not only help me, you know, help me.
(12:11):
Surrender or to find peace or to X, Y, Z, and, and not like a Santa Claus God, like, oh, plea, I need this, I need that.
I need this.
But just knowing that there's something more than me that can help me through hard times.
I was gonna say totally.
Uh, I totally agree.
And you know, again, I, I'm gonna go back to this because I don't want it to sound like.
(12:33):
It's almost too easy or it's a cop out.
And I, I, I agree.
And now, now since I got into the social media recovery community, right, there's, there's a lot of camps, right? There used to be like just that camp in AA and maybe rehabs and some other things.
Like now there's a whole lot of camps.
Yes.
Where I have a problem is when one camp has a problem with the other camp, like a, you know, a gets bashed now, right? Like, oh yeah.
(12:58):
A is easily bashed and I'm like.
It's fine if you don't, if it didn't work for you or you found a different way, I should say, is I think a better way to say it, but why would you bash something that's been around for, you know, I know what 80, I don't know, 80 something years.
It's helped millions of people, you know, that's where I have a problem.
Like there's, there's no, just because.
(13:20):
You know, it didn't work for you.
It doesn't mean you have to, and something a different way worked for you that that's great too.
We're all in this kind of, in this together.
It doesn't matter how we get here.
Yep.
You know, when I was saying about like the cop out, like there is no wrong way to get this part.
You know? That's why in the book there's a chapter for atheists and for the agnostics, you can figure out, you know, you gotta believe that there is, I, I hope for everyone out there at the very, very minimum.
(13:48):
Find some way to believe that, you know what, there may be something a little bit bigger than us out there.
Ask you.
Yeah.
How, how do we, and I may have asked you about this when we had our podcast together.
How do you help someone, or I don't wanna say advise, I don't wanna say press them towards how do you help someone knowing that our higher power is going to be instrumental essential in.
(14:19):
Getting on the path to sobriety and recovery, how do we help someone find that if they've just kind of thrown up their hands and say, I don't believe in anything I've seen, the darkness or the devil.
The word spirits comes from the fact that when you drink, that's a demon, quote unquote demon or spirit entering your body.
I'd love to hear you touch on that, but first tell me how.
(14:41):
And I wanna say, I almost said convince.
How do I convince somebody to find their higher power? Or is that like recovery? You, I can't do that.
You've gotta do it for yourself.
We're not supposed to convince anyone.
Again, this, this is my belief.
I, we're not supposed to convince anyone really of anything.
So someone walks into and is talking to you and I, and you know, they're hell bent and you know, I don't believe in any higher power.
(15:05):
I don't believe in any of this stuff.
You know, I'd say that's, that's fine.
But you know, my next question is, do you, do you want to get sober and do you wanna turn your life around? You know, if the answer is yes, then okay, we'll, we'll figure something out.
Like, you know, as long as you wanna, you know, change your life, then there there's pathways for you.
You know, I, I would encourage you to find something maybe just a little bit higher than yourself.
(15:27):
You know, maybe I'd even.
Maybe say why you, what makes you so big that you think you're bigger than anything else.
Right.
Right.
Is that, that ego? Right, that's right.
There's a big, big ego, you know, and it happens also a lot people that don't have any program, and I know a lot of friends, you know, don't have a, they're not in aa, they're not in coaching, they're not in anything.
(15:48):
But they, they stopped drinking and their lives are way better, you know? Yeah.
And I had a couple of good friends, they haven't drank in, you know, almost 10 years.
You know, and they don't have a program.
They, they haven't tried just, you know, it didn't, didn't click for them for whatever reason.
Right.
When they ask me about it sometimes and, and I'm always like, yeah, I'm so happy you're not drinking.
First of all, don't go back to drinking.
(16:10):
'cause I knew I drank.
Right.
But you're also.
You know, there's a whole lot to be discovered on this other side.
You know, I think there's probably an element of fear in people that they don't want to do some work.
You know, you look at the 12 steps, you look at some of the stuff that may be ahead of you, and that's daunting.
So what do we do? We back off and we deflect it, and I'm not going there.
I don't even, I'm not telling some stranger my deep, dark secrets, you know, why would I even go and doing something like that? And to no fault of their own, they've probably been raised their whole lives to like, I was like, you don't say a word to anyone.
(16:41):
You keep everything in.
Right.
You don't share anything.
That's a sign of weakness.
That's not what a man does.
You know, man up, put dirt in it, you know, keep, you know.
Yeah.
In fact is all that, you know, I've come to believe and I've come to learn that all that advice is really, it's really false advice.
It doesn't work.
You know, the most, you know, courageous thing anyone can do is, is reach out and ask someone for help.
(17:04):
You know, and I'm here to also tell you in 19 plus years.
That the most amazing things happen when people share, you know, I, I'm one of 'em, you know, like I wasn't gonna share some stuff with anyone and it was suggested that I be honest and be completely thorough with everything when I started doing the work on myself, you know? And lo and behold, I wasn't the only one.
I thought I was the only one that saw some of this stuff.
(17:26):
I wasn't, there's a lot of people, you know, like it's a big world out there, just goes to, to kind of deflating our egos and, and to.
To have an open mind that there is something else out there, you know? But just to go back to that example of how do you, you know, how do you get that person in? It's not a, it's not up to you and I to convince anyone of anything, but it's only, it's only up to us to, if the, if.
(17:52):
They want to stop drinking or stop doing drugs and change their life, that we are there to help them.
Yep.
And I think talking about sharing your story and being vulnerable and asking for help, I think that really gives, for lack of a better phrase, people the permission slip to speak their truth as well.
(18:14):
And hey, if Gary, that that badass strong island can speak his, you know, why can't I? And I think that for me is the biggest part to get out of that or grow from our conditioning to holding it all, especially Catholic, right? I mean, the Catholics, they don't, I mean, they don't tell anybody anything.
(18:37):
And I'll tell you what, in the last four and a half years.
I've learned more about my mother's family, the Irish Catholic from Boston.
I've learned more about her family being sober than I had my whole lifetime.
Yeah.
These are things that our kids need to know, and these are things that there's no shame in these things that happen to us.
(19:03):
I don't wanna say generational, cur, curses or anything.
I mean, I know that's a very intense concept, but by changing our path.
That affects seven generations behind and seven generations ahead.
And so I think talking about these things and the whole landscape of mental health substances, I mean it's changed immensely in the last five years.
(19:24):
Oh yeah.
Let alone 19 years.
Yes.
I think it's testament to just any kind of program to.
Reach a handout and pull someone up.
Pull someone in and be, and I know Drifter always says, you know, be the lighthouse.
You're shining a light out and you're beckoning the ships in.
(19:44):
And hopefully they come into shore and at that point you can help them off the ship.
But until they're ready, that ship's not coming.
That's right.
You know, and, and again, we, I, you know, I came in just to stop drinking like that was it, like I, it was so tunnel vision for me.
Like that's all I was there for.
And you bring up so many good points.
You're actually reminding me of where I was, you know, 19 years ago.
(20:06):
Like, I, I, I went to rehab in 2002.
My sober dates 2006, and I was in and out of AA for about four years, and it was just.
Ugly and all those things about, you know, a belly full of, uh, booze and a mindful of sobriety or mindful of aids.
It's a really difficult place to be.
It really is.
And I, I bring that up because kind of what you were just saying, our conditioning from Strong Island or to Boston, wherever it may be, right.
(20:32):
When for those four years I still was doing it my way.
I still was trying to do it my way, you know, and it wasn't until I.
I surrendered until I gave up, until I said, I can't do this anymore.
Please, I need help.
And I went back and went, you know, I was, by the way, I was never going back to those meetings.
I'll figure, I know I'm gonna have to stop drinking at some point, but I'm never going back to those meetings.
(20:55):
And what I was like, what happened 19 plus years ago is.
I was sitting in my apartment on a, I always say it was a Tuesday.
I don't even know if it was a Tuesday.
It was just such a non-event night.
And I was drunk as a skunk, couldn't speak.
The window was drawn and I was like, I, I can't do this anymore.
I don't wanna do this anymore.
And, you know, I said, God, please help me.
I don't want to, I don't want, I can't do this anymore.
(21:17):
And what did I do? I called Intergroup, New York City intergroup, and I went to a meeting, may, you know, May 13th, 2006.
Mm.
The distance was, I was a beaten man and I didn't do it my way.
When everything, you know, all this was, all those suggestions were, were given to me.
I, I just did, I said, it seems to be working for these people.
They seemed to be happy.
(21:37):
They seem to have productive lives.
There's like.
People that I look up to in these meetings.
And so, you know, instead of just like going to a meeting, sitting in the back of a room, kind of checking the box and leaving, you know, I went and sat in the front row and you know, when some guy walked up to me and said, here, here's my phone number.
You have to call me tomorrow.
You know when every instinct in my being is to tell the guy to take his number and take a hike, keep walking like you got the wrong guy.
(22:03):
It was like, alright, you know? And.
I was a stubborn, stubborn guy at the beginning, like I was so bad.
I was like, Hey, man, you told me to call you.
He's like, good, how you doing? I'm like, that's, you just said I had to call you.
He's like, all right, anything else? I'm like, Nope.
He's like, okay, call me tomorrow.
I was like, click like I was.
I was so, I was a tough nut.
(22:23):
I really, I really, really was.
But it was different because the.
I gave up, you know, and I started taking those suggestions.
You know, it was the first time I got a sponsor.
It was the first time I, I, I started writing stuff down and doing real work on myself.
And, you know, that's where, when you do it, when you do it that way, that's when you start seeing there's something bigger going on here.
(22:46):
There's something bigger than me.
You see people in the rooms that, you know, like I said, just incredible stories, incredible comeback stories, and people who are, you know.
So down on their luck and down on everything, lost everything or coming back and, you know, they have homes and families and they regain their fam, all of it, you know, all of it, you know.
And I was just like, you know what? I, I, it's, I, I thought my life was over too.
(23:10):
Like, I was like, you know, all my friends are probably gone.
I'm probably gonna lose my career.
Like, probably all gone.
And I was wrong.
I was wrong, but all of it, you know, and so.
What I'm saying, and I guess in a roundabout way is I've been kind of given this gift also of, and, and now I'm like very aware of it, of like an open mind.
Like I don't know everything, you know, like I used to think I knew everything in this tunnel vision way if you weren't in there.
(23:33):
Like just get outta the way.
But that's not how it is and that's not how, you know, life's supposed to be.
I don't know anything really.
And that's a kind of, it's such, it's such a nicer, easier way to kind of, to, to live that way, to wanna learn and to say, Hey, maybe there's another way, way to do this.
And what do they say? You, you start to kind of reach that elevated point when the one thing you do know is you don't know shit.
(23:55):
Right? Yeah.
I don't know a thing and I am, uh, I'm beginner's mind.
That's exactly right.
Yes.
Yes.
And it's a big deal.
It is.
And, um.
I mean, so, man, you touched about so much stuff.
You got me thinking back in the day.
I know.
I feel like I need to keep going on you here.
I wanna honor your time and I wanna make sure that I don't go down the rabbit hole because you know how I can get, Gary, I, I can go down, down, but I guess my last question to you is, I guess there's two questions.
(24:26):
Okay? So two, two quick questions for you.
Do you subscribe to the idea that.
When you do drink, it's almost letting in spirits, right? It's letting into darkness.
It's letting in.
Do I, I don't wanna say demons.
Do you think that's an opening, a doorway to.
(24:48):
Am I, am I, is that too much to say? Is that, is that all out there or No? You said even a few, just a minute before this, you said about the spirits and the spirits entering and so, right.
The answer is, I, I never, you know, uh, cognitively, you know, thought, oh, here, come, here they come.
Mm.
But let me tell you, like, that's how I drank.
Like when I drank, like I was a different, being like right away.
(25:12):
Yeah.
And everyone knew it.
And like.
You wanna talk about demons? I mean, look out and I gotta be careful because I don't wanna leave and like, you know, glamorize it.
But I was, you know, I, I could be the happiest guy in the, in the place and the drop of a dime it be the nastiest guy.
Mm.
(25:32):
You know, and you know, I was there either way.
So I mean, I just, because they never actually put that together.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, definitely entering, there's definitely.
Negative stuff entering this being, once I started drinking, I also couldn't stop.
So like once it touched.
It was off to the races.
Yep, yep.
(25:52):
I never really subscribed to that, but as I go further along in my recovery, the blessings just keep pouring in and it just shows me what a gift recovery and sobriety is, and knowing that there was that darkness when I was using and.
That I always told you before I used to call it that bitch and the reaper are standing in the corner waving at me, saying, ready whenever you are.
(26:16):
And so I guess that kind of somewhat leads to my next question.
Do you think that people can, and I I, I shouldn't even say it as sweepingly as this, but.
Lemme try this way.
Is it more likely that people can maintain the path of recovery and sobriety if they do the work? If they work on themselves? Because I, I know we were talking before about there are people who don't do programs.
(26:43):
I know some people who just, you know, quit drinking and they're kind of dry drunks in a sense, for lack of a better word.
And they've maintained their sobriety, but are they happy? Are they fulfilled? Are they growing? Do you think you need to do the work on yourself to maintain a happy life in sobriety? I mean, for me.
(27:04):
I think like 1000%.
Like no question about it.
You know? 'cause that's really, I really believe, you know, what you put in is all, in a way, in a way what you get out, you know? But I've gotten to a place where I, I love, you know, I love it.
Like I, I love.
The kind of personal growth, if you will.
I love working on myself.
(27:25):
I'm, you know, I'm, I, I make fun of myself.
You know, when COVID started, my sponsor, he started, uh, we, we started reading the big book on a Monday night at six o'clock, you know, 2020.
It was like eight of us, you know, and here we are five years later, and I'm in this quasi, you know.
Book club with, with eight other dudes.
Yeah.
You know, and if you told me that, you know, 19, 20 years ago, I'd be in some book club on a Monday night and I can't wait to get to it and it's one of the best, you know, hours of the week, I'd be like, what happened to me? Yeah.
(27:54):
And no, and no wine at the book club.
Yeah.
No, no drinking.
No.
That's what I mean.
So.
Absolutely.
And, and that was my point about before, yeah, you know, people can, can stop drinking and they can, you know, white and bear knuckle it and then be dry drunks.
But there's so much more, there's so much more to life, man, there, there is so much more on this side when you Yes, when you put in the work, you put in the, listen, we're only here.
(28:18):
For a short period of time, like, you know, I say this a lot too, is, you know, I have more dreams and goals and like ambitions and things I wanna do as a 51-year-old guy than than I ever have before.
And I owe all of that to my sobriety and to the.
To the personal work growth I've, I've done on myself, you know, and, you know, you talked about, you know, having a weeper in the corner, you know, you, you remind me again, like you hit me, like, without even knowing it.
(28:45):
Like, I, when I was out there, I didn't think I was gonna live very long.
Like, I really thought I was gonna be some, you know.
Kurt co.
Young guy, like dramatic, you know, bullshit, sick death.
And that's really what I thought.
And I kind of went out in that way.
Now I'm like mm-hmm.
Trying to figure out how I can stay here as long as I possibly can.
I'm 51.
I'm like, I wanna, maybe I'll make triple digits one day.
(29:07):
But the point is like I, I really believe the best years.
Maybe this is a, you know, they call it a midlife crisis.
I call it a midlife epiphany, you know, but I really believe that my best years are ahead of me, and, and I, I am only thinking that way.
I have this mindset because of all the stuff I've done on, done, all the work I've done on myself.
(29:29):
I love reading books about, you know, spirituality, personal growth.
Like I, I, I do, I love that stuff.
I'm not saying everyone has to be into it, but there's just such a beautiful.
Incredible life on the other side of this.
You know, if you stop drinking, great.
I'm gonna hug you.
I'm happy for you.
There's a lot more to it though.
(29:50):
This is a beautiful, like gigantic umbrella that comes when you stop drinking or doing drugs, whatever's holding you back, you know, like.
Go for it.
Just go for it.
Live life, you know, that was the other thing.
I used to think I was living life, you know, Hey man, I'm living life, you know, I'm still living life, but it's completely different from where it was 20 years ago.
(30:10):
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, oh yeah, the work the same, but the, but the idea's completely different and it's more healthy and it's beautiful and, you know, it's trying to help people.
It's, it's, you know, trying to be a good.
A person in society trying to have, find some purpose, trying to leave this world a little bit better than how it was before I got here.
I didn't talk this way, you know, peanut 20 years ago.
(30:32):
It's a different vocabulary, but it's real and it's, uh, you know, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful place and listen.
I'm not on some like pink cloud.
I'm, I'm a human being and I'll hang up here and I'll get mad at some guy cutting me off.
I got, I'm, I'm a normal person too, but I'm just a little more aware of it too these days.
(30:53):
Well, mic drop.
Gar.
That's a mic drop.
I could talk to you for days, you know that.
But right back at you.
It's been an absolute honor having you here today.
Tell our listeners a little bit about where we can find you.
Drop your handles, your website.
Tell us some little tidbits about you.
Where can we get Gary next? Alright.
(31:13):
Yeah.
Um, you know, I'm on Instagram, that's kind of where I hang out, if you will.
It's, uh, the beginning end podcast is my handle and I just launched as you know, I just launched my lifestyle on the power brand called Recover, RCVR brand.com.
Go check that out.
Instagram handle there is.
RCVR underscore brand, but that's just getting launched and that's been a lot of fun.
I'm reading a lot of people, and there's a lot to do with that.
(31:35):
And it's, for us, it's for people that recover out loud.
It's to, you know, it's, it's to wear the reminder.
And like I said, this is just the, the top of the first sitting with this.
There's a lot to come and so go check me out there.
I'm, I, I, I loved people when they DM me on, on, uh, Instagram.
I love having those conversations, so it'll hit me up anytime.
Awesome.
We'll make sure to put that in the notes as well underneath the podcast.
(32:00):
And I just wanna thank you so much for being here, and for those of you who have not yet checked out the Sober Town Podcast website, get over there.
Check out all the podcasts you can find Gary and i's old school podcasts on there.
Tons of tools and resources for all types of recovery pathways.
(32:22):
And we love anybody if they're sober curious, if they're just a dabbler, if they're moderating, if they're hardcore.
Like Gary.
I'm pretty hardcore.
I'm not 19 years old yet, but I just want to.
Scream it from the rooftop, that recovery and sobriety will help you find your path to spirituality and to becoming a better person.
(32:46):
And absolutely love you.
Gary.
Thank you so much for being here.
And thank you all for listening to Sober Town Podcast.
Ah, for.
Hello and welcome to Sober Town Podcast.
Let's hop on that sober train and ride into the wonderful, magical world of sobriety.
Hey everybody, it's Peanut here today and I am thrilled to be back on the Sober Town Podcast.
(00:20):
We are starting a new series called Spirituality and Sobriety.
For my first guest, this series is the incredible amazing Gary Minkes.
He is the Begin Again podcast.
He's also the founder of Recover Apparel.
And I have Gary here because I've been on his podcast and he is instrumental to the recovery community and I know that he is a man that uses Spirit.
(00:55):
Or Gary, do you, you prefer to use God? Do you subscribe to No.
Kind of all the above.
Definitely spirituality.
God, definitely.
God for me.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Spirituality I think is, uh, it's kind of all the above.
It's kind of both.
I don't want kind of like that kind of grayish beau.
It's a beautiful grayish area.
It's one of those things that, as I've been.
(01:18):
Talking to people about recovery.
There's some people who are very into using the label of God, I pray, I speak to God, I go to church.
And then there's other people who say, Hey, I found a different level of spirituality than what I learned growing up.
So Gary, if you would take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself when you first got sober.
(01:43):
Give us some of the high points and then, uh, we'll start in on all the good stuff.
It's so good to be here.
And I gotta say one thing that I actually I, not that I forgot, but it's been almost two years since I was on sober Town, and the first podcast that I ever did as a guest was with Drifter and it was on Sober town.
(02:04):
And in fact, whenever.
Friends or family or, or people I've met.
Hey, what's a guy? I want to hear your story.
I direct them to episode, I think it's three 16 of Sober Town.
Yep.
Um, with Drifter, because that was, uh, that was my first, you know, sort of live podcast.
It was, and you know, I love the guy.
We hit it off like right away and I think we did it super early in the morning.
(02:28):
Right.
'cause I know his schedule is, is a little wild.
And he is like, can you do it at five in the morning? I'm like, yeah, that, that's perfect time for, for me.
So I.
That's my kind of big intro to say it's really good to be back here.
And then you and I hit it off, uh, a couple months after that, after that first year, we, you and I known each other going on well over a year now, year and a half at least.
(02:49):
And I, you know, I celebrated, you probably know, we celebrated 19 years of sobriety in May, uh, was my 19th year.
And if you knew me.
You know, 19 plus years ago, I would've been the last person voted, uh, on the island, so to speak, to, to find sobriety, and that's the best thing.
That never happened to me.
I was, uh, I was on a completely different path.
(03:10):
I got in a lot of trouble early on.
I've been through a lot like we all have.
But now I found this community.
I started this podcast two years ago and heard terms that I never heard before, like recover out loud.
And I was like, yeah, like that really.
Hit me.
Like it really, 'cause that's how I started.
That was the idea of the podcast.
I was in the meeting and I was like, but more than 20 something people in this church basement can benefit to hear these incredible messages and these incredible comeback stories.
(03:38):
And that's kind of how it, it was launched.
And my, one of my favorite terms now is recover out loud so others don't have to suffer in silence.
And, uh, it's, uh, get to meet people like you.
Not only just meet and have, do podcasts together, but to make real relationships with just incredible people like yourself.
So I'm grateful to be here and I'm flattered that you invited me for this new series.
(03:59):
It's, I'm looking forward to it.
Well, I'm excited because I know you and I, and again, attributing our meeting to Drifter.
He said, this is a guy you've gotta meet.
You guys are really gonna hit it off.
And as I always say, drifters the one guy if his.
Name comes up on my phone, I pick it up.
Yeah.
And he's become a big brother to me, so when he says I'm gonna hit it off of somebody I know he's on point and meeting you.
(04:22):
We just had a, a great chat and really covered a lot of things.
Literally, you were the first person who popped to mind when I started to think about spirituality and sobriety.
Yeah.
And so, uh, I know you've, you're 19 years sober.
Were you raised? Re I I don't know if we should use religious, spiritual, I mean, I could say I am, I was raised Catholic.
Right.
I'm a recovering Catholic in more ways than one.
(04:45):
And, uh, so were you raised, um.
In, in the church as a believer.
Yeah.
I, I'm a Catholic too, you know, I, I grew up on Long Island.
I, I think I was kind of, um, you know, kind of normal.
Like, you know, we, we had to go to church on Sundays and sometimes we snuck out and sometime, you know, we had to.
The envelope and bring the envelope to the church.
(05:06):
And sometimes I was the one, like I was with my older cousins and I dropped the envelope off and then we kind of sneak out the side door and like go play stickball.
But no, I was grew, I grew up Catholic too.
I wasn't, you know, I wouldn't say I was super religious at all, but I did always have a relationship with God, with a God of my understanding.
You know, I think what we were talking about even off the top is, you know, I, I think there's a difference.
(05:30):
At least when you're coming into sobriety, be between religion and spirituality, you know? Right.
I think that's probably where people, I, I think from, at least the experience I've had where people could, could potentially have a little clash and, and get a little confused, you know? And early on for me, I, I never had a, I, I always believed in a higher power.
(05:50):
I was.
Classic, you know, foxhole prayer guy.
But I really believed, and I really believed I had a relationship with, with, with my God and my understanding.
But when I came in, you know, I, I was like a lot of people, I was like, what is this? Some kind of religious cult, like, what's going on? And as you know, and you know, AA is where I got sober and I'm still very active in AA and I love AA and saved my life.
(06:12):
And I'm also in the camp.
You know, I don't care how you get here.
There's, there's a lot of different ways to get here.
And so, however you get here and you're here.
God bless you.
I'm so happy that you're here.
If someone asks me how I got sober, I'm gonna tell my story and it's say, hey.
And I remember early on, you know, someone said like, don't worry so much about all the God part.
You know, like, you know, you can, you can make the meeting your higher power at the beginning.
(06:37):
And you know, that first year for me, you know, I lived in New York City and all it was, you know, looking back, I say this a lot, looking at that first year.
All that New York City has and New York City has to offer the most amazing thing for me for sobriety.
You know, you can get to a meeting 24 hours a day, uh, around the clock in New York City.
And that's all I did that first year was, was go to work.
(06:58):
I barely held onto the job.
I was out, I did held onto it, and.
They gave out the pamphlets and I, I went to a meeting, um, every day sometimes too.
And that looking back, you know, that was such a beautiful year.
But, you know, as far as I, I think I, I never really, religion and, and spirituality, it's all for me.
I think it's different for, for each person and, and can be different for every, for all of us.
(07:22):
I think that's, that's the important part.
There's no one way to do it.
But for me, I started praying on my knees every morning.
It was said, Hey man, put your shoes underneath your bed.
And I said, why? They said, because the first thing you're gonna do is hit it in your knees and you're gonna ask God of your end understanding, whoever it may be.
They didn't force any kind of God on me, whatever I wanted it to be.
(07:45):
And they said, ask.
Ask him to keep you sober today.
And peanut, I went on my knees 19 years ago and I said, God, please gimme the gift of sobriety today.
And he said, if you do, if you don't make it through the day and you don't drink today.
At the end of the day, get back on your knees and thank him for giving that gift of sobriety.
And let me tell you, I went through that first day and I went.
Holy cow.
I think that may have worked that I didn't drink today.
(08:07):
That's amazing.
And I thanked him.
And that's part of my prayers today.
That's part of my morning prayers and my evening prayers every single day.
It's part of my, it's evolved and there's a lot of gratitude now and Yeah.
Wanna talk about, uh, Catholic, you know, I, the, our father is big part of my prayers too, but like, it could be, uh, whatever makes, whatever you're comfortable with, you know, I think we get in trouble where.
(08:29):
People like, no, this is the way you have to do it.
There's no like right or wrong way to do it.
We're here to stay sober and to improve our lives and to improve our family's lives at the end of the day.
So this is this, I say all this and this roundabout kind of blabbering way.
I'm sorry I'm talking so much, but you know, spirituality is what I chase today.
Peanut like that is what I like, really love.
(08:51):
Spirituality means so much to me.
There's so, it's such a big, huge umbrella for me.
So I'm wondering, uh, and I, I, I feel like our Catholic mothers are like, yes, we did it.
Um, and like he got on his knees.
That's exactly what we wanted.
All those, all those years in the pews.
You know, I'm curious, when you were using and in the throes of your addiction, did you find yourself, did you drift away from your higher power? I, I said I was a big box hole prayer guy, and I wasn't very accountable to those prayers.
(09:24):
God, get me outta this one.
I promise won't.
Please get me outta this one.
Please get me home tonight.
Mm.
And do the very same thing the very next night.
And I'd say kind of the same prayers.
And I knew I was, I was a fraud.
Where I got further away from God of my understanding was, you know, I, things went darker and darker and darker.
Darker.
And, and, um.
(09:46):
My morals, uh, my moral compass kept getting worse and worse and worse.
And I mean, I was in places and situations that I never thought I would put myself in.
And, you know, there I was.
So that's the, in a way, the further away I got to that, the, you know, the, we such a, a group of people.
I believe that.
We're so down on ourselves as it is, and it's like, it's such just a compound effect.
(10:10):
And everything that we're putting in our bodies is making us feel worse and worse and worse, and we don't want to feel, so we keep drinking or drugging so we don't feel for a little while, and then we come to a little bit and we feel even worse, and maybe we're getting in trouble, maybe we're arrested, whatever it may be, and it just compounds.
So like, yeah, in that sense, I'm getting further and further away because yeah, I, I did have moral compass where I knew.
(10:32):
What's right or wrong? I shouldn't be doing this.
This is not right, and you still go and do it.
Right? And but also the flip side is when I found that sobriety, like I said, you know, now I, I wasn't doing those prayers in the morning.
Now I, he said, put God first.
Putting my sobriety first is for me, is putting God first.
Today I have a relationship, like a really good relationship with my higher power.
(10:56):
I believe my higher power, my, well for me again, is God.
Is within me.
And you know, that's a beautiful thing.
That's something I've been doing a lot lately and like right before it came on here, please speak through me.
Let's help some people listening.
Let me, let me help Dana any way I can.
Please let me help her show.
Let's help people listening.
But then it's like, well, my higher power rests inside me.
(11:17):
Then there's really, you know, the sky really is the limit and there's nothing we can't not do.
We can do whatever we put our hearts to.
You're getting me a little misty over here.
Gary, I lo I love to hear you speak about it because I can hear your passion.
I just adore and cherish your, your honesty and your realness, because I know for some, some, especially in the recovery community, it's, there's almost two different camps.
(11:42):
Mm.
The AA camp, they're religious, they're into God and then the spiritual camp.
Right.
But the way that you speak of it is.
As you said, that kinda that gray area, it's all encompassing and we all believe in something bigger than ourselves.
We, and for me, it's having something that I can, and, and this may be more of a Catholic thing to say, it's something to almost place my burdens on and say not only help me, you know, help me.
(12:11):
Surrender or to find peace or to X, Y, Z, and, and not like a Santa Claus God, like, oh, plea, I need this, I need that.
I need this.
But just knowing that there's something more than me that can help me through hard times.
I was gonna say totally.
Uh, I totally agree.
And you know, again, I, I'm gonna go back to this because I don't want it to sound like.
(12:33):
It's almost too easy or it's a cop out.
And I, I, I agree.
And now, now since I got into the social media recovery community, right, there's, there's a lot of camps, right? There used to be like just that camp in AA and maybe rehabs and some other things.
Like now there's a whole lot of camps.
Yes.
Where I have a problem is when one camp has a problem with the other camp, like a, you know, a gets bashed now, right? Like, oh yeah.
(12:58):
A is easily bashed and I'm like.
It's fine if you don't, if it didn't work for you or you found a different way, I should say, is I think a better way to say it, but why would you bash something that's been around for, you know, I know what 80, I don't know, 80 something years.
It's helped millions of people, you know, that's where I have a problem.
Like there's, there's no, just because.
(13:20):
You know, it didn't work for you.
It doesn't mean you have to, and something a different way worked for you that that's great too.
We're all in this kind of, in this together.
It doesn't matter how we get here.
Yep.
You know, when I was saying about like the cop out, like there is no wrong way to get this part.
You know? That's why in the book there's a chapter for atheists and for the agnostics, you can figure out, you know, you gotta believe that there is, I, I hope for everyone out there at the very, very minimum.
(13:48):
Find some way to believe that, you know what, there may be something a little bit bigger than us out there.
Ask you.
Yeah.
How, how do we, and I may have asked you about this when we had our podcast together.
How do you help someone, or I don't wanna say advise, I don't wanna say press them towards how do you help someone knowing that our higher power is going to be instrumental essential in.
(14:19):
Getting on the path to sobriety and recovery, how do we help someone find that if they've just kind of thrown up their hands and say, I don't believe in anything I've seen, the darkness or the devil.
The word spirits comes from the fact that when you drink, that's a demon, quote unquote demon or spirit entering your body.
I'd love to hear you touch on that, but first tell me how.
(14:41):
And I wanna say, I almost said convince.
How do I convince somebody to find their higher power? Or is that like recovery? You, I can't do that.
You've gotta do it for yourself.
We're not supposed to convince anyone.
Again, this, this is my belief.
I, we're not supposed to convince anyone really of anything.
So someone walks into and is talking to you and I, and you know, they're hell bent and you know, I don't believe in any higher power.
(15:05):
I don't believe in any of this stuff.
You know, I'd say that's, that's fine.
But you know, my next question is, do you, do you want to get sober and do you wanna turn your life around? You know, if the answer is yes, then okay, we'll, we'll figure something out.
Like, you know, as long as you wanna, you know, change your life, then there there's pathways for you.
You know, I, I would encourage you to find something maybe just a little bit higher than yourself.
(15:27):
You know, maybe I'd even.
Maybe say why you, what makes you so big that you think you're bigger than anything else.
Right.
Right.
Is that, that ego? Right, that's right.
There's a big, big ego, you know, and it happens also a lot people that don't have any program, and I know a lot of friends, you know, don't have a, they're not in aa, they're not in coaching, they're not in anything.
(15:48):
But they, they stopped drinking and their lives are way better, you know? Yeah.
And I had a couple of good friends, they haven't drank in, you know, almost 10 years.
You know, and they don't have a program.
They, they haven't tried just, you know, it didn't, didn't click for them for whatever reason.
Right.
When they ask me about it sometimes and, and I'm always like, yeah, I'm so happy you're not drinking.
First of all, don't go back to drinking.
(16:10):
'cause I knew I drank.
Right.
But you're also.
You know, there's a whole lot to be discovered on this other side.
You know, I think there's probably an element of fear in people that they don't want to do some work.
You know, you look at the 12 steps, you look at some of the stuff that may be ahead of you, and that's daunting.
So what do we do? We back off and we deflect it, and I'm not going there.
I don't even, I'm not telling some stranger my deep, dark secrets, you know, why would I even go and doing something like that? And to no fault of their own, they've probably been raised their whole lives to like, I was like, you don't say a word to anyone.
(16:41):
You keep everything in.
Right.
You don't share anything.
That's a sign of weakness.
That's not what a man does.
You know, man up, put dirt in it, you know, keep, you know.
Yeah.
In fact is all that, you know, I've come to believe and I've come to learn that all that advice is really, it's really false advice.
It doesn't work.
You know, the most, you know, courageous thing anyone can do is, is reach out and ask someone for help.
(17:04):
You know, and I'm here to also tell you in 19 plus years.
That the most amazing things happen when people share, you know, I, I'm one of 'em, you know, like I wasn't gonna share some stuff with anyone and it was suggested that I be honest and be completely thorough with everything when I started doing the work on myself, you know? And lo and behold, I wasn't the only one.
I thought I was the only one that saw some of this stuff.
(17:26):
I wasn't, there's a lot of people, you know, like it's a big world out there, just goes to, to kind of deflating our egos and, and to.
To have an open mind that there is something else out there, you know? But just to go back to that example of how do you, you know, how do you get that person in? It's not a, it's not up to you and I to convince anyone of anything, but it's only, it's only up to us to, if the, if.
(17:52):
They want to stop drinking or stop doing drugs and change their life, that we are there to help them.
Yep.
And I think talking about sharing your story and being vulnerable and asking for help, I think that really gives, for lack of a better phrase, people the permission slip to speak their truth as well.
(18:14):
And hey, if Gary, that that badass strong island can speak his, you know, why can't I? And I think that for me is the biggest part to get out of that or grow from our conditioning to holding it all, especially Catholic, right? I mean, the Catholics, they don't, I mean, they don't tell anybody anything.
(18:37):
And I'll tell you what, in the last four and a half years.
I've learned more about my mother's family, the Irish Catholic from Boston.
I've learned more about her family being sober than I had my whole lifetime.
Yeah.
These are things that our kids need to know, and these are things that there's no shame in these things that happen to us.
(19:03):
I don't wanna say generational, cur, curses or anything.
I mean, I know that's a very intense concept, but by changing our path.
That affects seven generations behind and seven generations ahead.
And so I think talking about these things and the whole landscape of mental health substances, I mean it's changed immensely in the last five years.
(19:24):
Oh yeah.
Let alone 19 years.
Yes.
I think it's testament to just any kind of program to.
Reach a handout and pull someone up.
Pull someone in and be, and I know Drifter always says, you know, be the lighthouse.
You're shining a light out and you're beckoning the ships in.
(19:44):
And hopefully they come into shore and at that point you can help them off the ship.
But until they're ready, that ship's not coming.
That's right.
You know, and, and again, we, I, you know, I came in just to stop drinking like that was it, like I, it was so tunnel vision for me.
Like that's all I was there for.
And you bring up so many good points.
You're actually reminding me of where I was, you know, 19 years ago.
(20:06):
Like, I, I, I went to rehab in 2002.
My sober dates 2006, and I was in and out of AA for about four years, and it was just.
Ugly and all those things about, you know, a belly full of, uh, booze and a mindful of sobriety or mindful of aids.
It's a really difficult place to be.
It really is.
And I, I bring that up because kind of what you were just saying, our conditioning from Strong Island or to Boston, wherever it may be, right.
(20:32):
When for those four years I still was doing it my way.
I still was trying to do it my way, you know, and it wasn't until I.
I surrendered until I gave up, until I said, I can't do this anymore.
Please, I need help.
And I went back and went, you know, I was, by the way, I was never going back to those meetings.
I'll figure, I know I'm gonna have to stop drinking at some point, but I'm never going back to those meetings.
(20:55):
And what I was like, what happened 19 plus years ago is.
I was sitting in my apartment on a, I always say it was a Tuesday.
I don't even know if it was a Tuesday.
It was just such a non-event night.
And I was drunk as a skunk, couldn't speak.
The window was drawn and I was like, I, I can't do this anymore.
I don't wanna do this anymore.
And, you know, I said, God, please help me.
I don't want to, I don't want, I can't do this anymore.
(21:17):
And what did I do? I called Intergroup, New York City intergroup, and I went to a meeting, may, you know, May 13th, 2006.
Mm.
The distance was, I was a beaten man and I didn't do it my way.
When everything, you know, all this was, all those suggestions were, were given to me.
I, I just did, I said, it seems to be working for these people.
They seemed to be happy.
(21:37):
They seem to have productive lives.
There's like.
People that I look up to in these meetings.
And so, you know, instead of just like going to a meeting, sitting in the back of a room, kind of checking the box and leaving, you know, I went and sat in the front row and you know, when some guy walked up to me and said, here, here's my phone number.
You have to call me tomorrow.
You know when every instinct in my being is to tell the guy to take his number and take a hike, keep walking like you got the wrong guy.
(22:03):
It was like, alright, you know? And.
I was a stubborn, stubborn guy at the beginning, like I was so bad.
I was like, Hey, man, you told me to call you.
He's like, good, how you doing? I'm like, that's, you just said I had to call you.
He's like, all right, anything else? I'm like, Nope.
He's like, okay, call me tomorrow.
I was like, click like I was.
I was so, I was a tough nut.
(22:23):
I really, I really, really was.
But it was different because the.
I gave up, you know, and I started taking those suggestions.
You know, it was the first time I got a sponsor.
It was the first time I, I, I started writing stuff down and doing real work on myself.
And, you know, that's where, when you do it, when you do it that way, that's when you start seeing there's something bigger going on here.
(22:46):
There's something bigger than me.
You see people in the rooms that, you know, like I said, just incredible stories, incredible comeback stories, and people who are, you know.
So down on their luck and down on everything, lost everything or coming back and, you know, they have homes and families and they regain their fam, all of it, you know, all of it, you know.
And I was just like, you know what? I, I, it's, I, I thought my life was over too.
(23:10):
Like, I was like, you know, all my friends are probably gone.
I'm probably gonna lose my career.
Like, probably all gone.
And I was wrong.
I was wrong, but all of it, you know, and so.
What I'm saying, and I guess in a roundabout way is I've been kind of given this gift also of, and, and now I'm like very aware of it, of like an open mind.
Like I don't know everything, you know, like I used to think I knew everything in this tunnel vision way if you weren't in there.
(23:33):
Like just get outta the way.
But that's not how it is and that's not how, you know, life's supposed to be.
I don't know anything really.
And that's a kind of, it's such, it's such a nicer, easier way to kind of, to, to live that way, to wanna learn and to say, Hey, maybe there's another way, way to do this.
And what do they say? You, you start to kind of reach that elevated point when the one thing you do know is you don't know shit.
(23:55):
Right? Yeah.
I don't know a thing and I am, uh, I'm beginner's mind.
That's exactly right.
Yes.
Yes.
And it's a big deal.
It is.
And, um.
I mean, so, man, you touched about so much stuff.
You got me thinking back in the day.
I know.
I feel like I need to keep going on you here.
I wanna honor your time and I wanna make sure that I don't go down the rabbit hole because you know how I can get, Gary, I, I can go down, down, but I guess my last question to you is, I guess there's two questions.
(24:26):
Okay? So two, two quick questions for you.
Do you subscribe to the idea that.
When you do drink, it's almost letting in spirits, right? It's letting into darkness.
It's letting in.
Do I, I don't wanna say demons.
Do you think that's an opening, a doorway to.
(24:48):
Am I, am I, is that too much to say? Is that, is that all out there or No? You said even a few, just a minute before this, you said about the spirits and the spirits entering and so, right.
The answer is, I, I never, you know, uh, cognitively, you know, thought, oh, here, come, here they come.
Mm.
But let me tell you, like, that's how I drank.
Like when I drank, like I was a different, being like right away.
(25:12):
Yeah.
And everyone knew it.
And like.
You wanna talk about demons? I mean, look out and I gotta be careful because I don't wanna leave and like, you know, glamorize it.
But I was, you know, I, I could be the happiest guy in the, in the place and the drop of a dime it be the nastiest guy.
Mm.
(25:32):
You know, and you know, I was there either way.
So I mean, I just, because they never actually put that together.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, definitely entering, there's definitely.
Negative stuff entering this being, once I started drinking, I also couldn't stop.
So like once it touched.
It was off to the races.
Yep, yep.
(25:52):
I never really subscribed to that, but as I go further along in my recovery, the blessings just keep pouring in and it just shows me what a gift recovery and sobriety is, and knowing that there was that darkness when I was using and.
That I always told you before I used to call it that bitch and the reaper are standing in the corner waving at me, saying, ready whenever you are.
(26:16):
And so I guess that kind of somewhat leads to my next question.
Do you think that people can, and I I, I shouldn't even say it as sweepingly as this, but.
Lemme try this way.
Is it more likely that people can maintain the path of recovery and sobriety if they do the work? If they work on themselves? Because I, I know we were talking before about there are people who don't do programs.
(26:43):
I know some people who just, you know, quit drinking and they're kind of dry drunks in a sense, for lack of a better word.
And they've maintained their sobriety, but are they happy? Are they fulfilled? Are they growing? Do you think you need to do the work on yourself to maintain a happy life in sobriety? I mean, for me.
(27:04):
I think like 1000%.
Like no question about it.
You know? 'cause that's really, I really believe, you know, what you put in is all, in a way, in a way what you get out, you know? But I've gotten to a place where I, I love, you know, I love it.
Like I, I love.
The kind of personal growth, if you will.
I love working on myself.
(27:25):
I'm, you know, I'm, I, I make fun of myself.
You know, when COVID started, my sponsor, he started, uh, we, we started reading the big book on a Monday night at six o'clock, you know, 2020.
It was like eight of us, you know, and here we are five years later, and I'm in this quasi, you know.
Book club with, with eight other dudes.
Yeah.
You know, and if you told me that, you know, 19, 20 years ago, I'd be in some book club on a Monday night and I can't wait to get to it and it's one of the best, you know, hours of the week, I'd be like, what happened to me? Yeah.
(27:54):
And no, and no wine at the book club.
Yeah.
No, no drinking.
No.
That's what I mean.
So.
Absolutely.
And, and that was my point about before, yeah, you know, people can, can stop drinking and they can, you know, white and bear knuckle it and then be dry drunks.
But there's so much more, there's so much more to life, man, there, there is so much more on this side when you Yes, when you put in the work, you put in the, listen, we're only here.
(28:18):
For a short period of time, like, you know, I say this a lot too, is, you know, I have more dreams and goals and like ambitions and things I wanna do as a 51-year-old guy than than I ever have before.
And I owe all of that to my sobriety and to the.
To the personal work growth I've, I've done on myself, you know, and, you know, you talked about, you know, having a weeper in the corner, you know, you, you remind me again, like you hit me, like, without even knowing it.
(28:45):
Like, I, when I was out there, I didn't think I was gonna live very long.
Like, I really thought I was gonna be some, you know.
Kurt co.
Young guy, like dramatic, you know, bullshit, sick death.
And that's really what I thought.
And I kind of went out in that way.
Now I'm like mm-hmm.
Trying to figure out how I can stay here as long as I possibly can.
I'm 51.
I'm like, I wanna, maybe I'll make triple digits one day.
(29:07):
But the point is like I, I really believe the best years.
Maybe this is a, you know, they call it a midlife crisis.
I call it a midlife epiphany, you know, but I really believe that my best years are ahead of me, and, and I, I am only thinking that way.
I have this mindset because of all the stuff I've done on, done, all the work I've done on myself.
(29:29):
I love reading books about, you know, spirituality, personal growth.
Like I, I, I do, I love that stuff.
I'm not saying everyone has to be into it, but there's just such a beautiful.
Incredible life on the other side of this.
You know, if you stop drinking, great.
I'm gonna hug you.
I'm happy for you.
There's a lot more to it though.
(29:50):
This is a beautiful, like gigantic umbrella that comes when you stop drinking or doing drugs, whatever's holding you back, you know, like.
Go for it.
Just go for it.
Live life, you know, that was the other thing.
I used to think I was living life, you know, Hey man, I'm living life, you know, I'm still living life, but it's completely different from where it was 20 years ago.
(30:10):
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, oh yeah, the work the same, but the, but the idea's completely different and it's more healthy and it's beautiful and, you know, it's trying to help people.
It's, it's, you know, trying to be a good.
A person in society trying to have, find some purpose, trying to leave this world a little bit better than how it was before I got here.
I didn't talk this way, you know, peanut 20 years ago.
(30:32):
It's a different vocabulary, but it's real and it's, uh, you know, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful place and listen.
I'm not on some like pink cloud.
I'm, I'm a human being and I'll hang up here and I'll get mad at some guy cutting me off.
I got, I'm, I'm a normal person too, but I'm just a little more aware of it too these days.
(30:53):
Well, mic drop.
Gar.
That's a mic drop.
I could talk to you for days, you know that.
But right back at you.
It's been an absolute honor having you here today.
Tell our listeners a little bit about where we can find you.
Drop your handles, your website.
Tell us some little tidbits about you.
Where can we get Gary next? Alright.
(31:13):
Yeah.
Um, you know, I'm on Instagram, that's kind of where I hang out, if you will.
It's, uh, the beginning end podcast is my handle and I just launched as you know, I just launched my lifestyle on the power brand called Recover, RCVR brand.com.
Go check that out.
Instagram handle there is.
RCVR underscore brand, but that's just getting launched and that's been a lot of fun.
I'm reading a lot of people, and there's a lot to do with that.
(31:35):
And it's, for us, it's for people that recover out loud.
It's to, you know, it's, it's to wear the reminder.
And like I said, this is just the, the top of the first sitting with this.
There's a lot to come and so go check me out there.
I'm, I, I, I loved people when they DM me on, on, uh, Instagram.
I love having those conversations, so it'll hit me up anytime.
Awesome.
We'll make sure to put that in the notes as well underneath the podcast.
(32:00):
And I just wanna thank you so much for being here, and for those of you who have not yet checked out the Sober Town Podcast website, get over there.
Check out all the podcasts you can find Gary and i's old school podcasts on there.
Tons of tools and resources for all types of recovery pathways.
(32:22):
And we love anybody if they're sober curious, if they're just a dabbler, if they're moderating, if they're hardcore.
Like Gary.
I'm pretty hardcore.
I'm not 19 years old yet, but I just want to.
Scream it from the rooftop, that recovery and sobriety will help you find your path to spirituality and to becoming a better person.
(32:46):
And absolutely love you.
Gary.
Thank you so much for being here.
And thank you all for listening to Sober Town Podcast.
Ah, for.
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