Ep. 30: Guest Corey Bruce - Must-Haves for Sales Leaders in 2025 - Software Sales Simplified: MOVE to Success

Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome tosoftware sales simplified move
to success, your one stop shop for learning the latest and
greatest in the world of enterprise software sales.
Whether you're a veteran or justnew to the industry, please make
our podcast your go to resource for becoming a better seller.
I'm Kevin Donville. I am your Co host on today's

(00:31):
show and I'm joined by my esteemed colleague Matt Long.
Now today we're going to be talking about what it takes to
drive sales leadership and some of the challenges that have been
coming up in the market today. Team building, pushing back on
leadership. Matt, you've never experienced
there being unrealistic expectation.
Where have you? Well, maybe once or twice.

(00:52):
There seems to be a little disconnect between what
expectations are and what the realities are.
So being able to navigate that appropriately is incumbent upon,
you know, the organization's success as well as your own
personal success. So I'm looking for this
conversation today. I am too, and to guide us
through this conversation today,we are bringing in a gentleman

(01:13):
who has a lot to say about this particular topic.
His name is Corey. Bruce Corey, how are you doing
today? Thank you for being on the show.
You bet. My pleasure.
Thanks for having me doing pretty well.
Thanks for a Monday afternoon. Yeah, it is.
It is Monday. Mondays can be rough,
especially, especially in the wild world of technical sales.
That right. But you had some wonderful news

(01:33):
today. You started your day off just
right, didn't you? You had some successes there.
Oh, we did, yeah. We were chasing the deal for the
last few weeks, you know drivingthe team as I will get into it
probably here shortly about taking over a business.
I was week 6 into this thing andwe're trying to drive a multi
year $300,000 deal and chased itthrough the weekend, multiple
different continents, global, global deal and got the DocuSign

(01:55):
signed and everybody lit up the Christmas tree.
I mean that's that's the best way to start a Monday in my
opinion. Banging the drummer, banging the
gong, lighting the Christmas tree, whatever metaphor you want
to use, whether and sometimes not a metaphor.
I've been places where they're actually banging a gong in the
sales room. It is a fantastic way to go and
start off on Monday. Now, Corey, you've got a
fantastic and very interesting background, one that we're going

(02:16):
to explore a little bit on the call today.
But our get our audiences, they don't know you.
Can you take a minute, take the floor, tell everybody a little
bit about yourself, your background, your experience,
where you are now and what you do there?
You bet. Jeez, I've been in.
I've been in sales and software as a service sales since the
late 90s actually before Amazon Web Services and Azure existed.

(02:37):
Getting our my start in heavy civil construction training.
So, you know, back before everything was posted online, it
was more like death by PowerPoint and voice over coming
from the, the, the construction side.
How do we get content online? So as part of a startup company
out of the Bay Area where I'm originally from, just a little
bit north of Silicon Valley, howfitting, right, for a startup
company And got into scaling these businesses with subject

(03:00):
matter expertise and then got rolled up through multiple
different private equity companies, which was kind of the
launchpad for a lot of us, wheregrowth equity kind of latched on
and started investing in buying and acquiring companies.
And so I've spent my entire career virtually scaling startup
software as a service business in the environmental health and
safety arena. Where I am today is the CEO

(03:21):
running another EHS global EHS company competing in a very
saturated and commoditized environment which is fitting for
Sales 101 today. Commoditized.
No competition, then easy peasy.Every deal just falls off the
table, right? Yes, Bluebird shooting fish in a
barrel. Absolutely.
This software practically sells itself, right?
That's. It right, Every manager's

(03:43):
favorite singer, leadership that's out of touch, it sells
itself, OK. Oh yeah, absolutely.
Well, with, with respect to that, you've had an interesting
path up through the software sales world.
And as a result, I'm really looking forward to getting your
perspectives on a couple of these things, especially when it
comes down to to the whole leadership.
Now you're now CEO. So talk about.

(04:04):
I mean, the buck stops on your table, doesn't it?
Sure does. Ultimate authority.
You get blamed for stuff you don't do and you get no credit
for stuff you do do. And it's you got to make all the
heavy decisions every single dayand you got people's lives
depending upon you. So it's an interesting spot to
be in. Heavy where is the crown?
Yes, Heavy where is the crown? So having been in the leadership
positions, all three of us here on this call and probably let

(04:25):
several of the people that are listening to the call today,
people don't realize how much ofan analogy of Game of Thrones
can have to the whole software sales leadership positions these
days. But you know, with respect to
that, you kind of hit on it there with some of the comments
you made. You are responsible for all the
decisions and that whole leadership background can be

(04:47):
very stressful and is not necessarily for the faint of
heart, but there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do
it. I know that part of the reason
why when you and I were talking earlier on your path to get into
the position you're in now had to do with people taking a risk
with you and you taking risks with your career and, and people
that were willing to invest and grow you.

(05:08):
How important was that that whole investing in people and
you getting to where you are today?
I mean it's paramount and I would, I would venture to guess
for, you know, the three of us on this call and any other
listeners or people that will listen is you have to be able to
trust people, but you have to bewilling to take a calculated
risk. You know, as we were speaking a
few weeks ago, kind of teeing this up, you know, I, I was

(05:29):
complimentary of my former CEO'sor CRO's or whatever the role
was that was hiring me. Was you do your best to
interview. Well, you, you be transparent
about who you are. But really it's, it's gambling.
You, you, you suck people out and figure out does this person
have the, the emotional intelligence to do the job?
Do they have the grit and the tenacity and the discipline?
We're all going to make mistakes.
You're never going to find the perfect candidate, but they were

(05:50):
willing to invest in you and roll those dice.
And if you work hard enough and ultimately the goal is this
promise to be successful, whatever you know, that looks
like, whether it's a company acquisition or driving revenue
or just growing the company. But it's a big deal because
that's where your, your character is on the line.
And now you have an obligation to to perform once the offer
letter sent in and you sign and sing Kumbaya and it's it's ready

(06:12):
to go and hit the runway moving.So what are some of the tactics
and the principles you've put into practice inside the
organizations that you're working in with respect to kind
of making that manifest inside the organization?
Yeah, so I guess first and foremost, I was thinking about
about this session today. And you know, one of the biggest
things that I've I've learned, Ithink we all know is I was just

(06:34):
sharing this this weekend with somebody kind of giving up some
coaching and mentoring was we don't learn when things go well.
We we learn the best when thingsgo poorly wrong or we've made a
very bad decision and we own it.But you look back and say, what
could I have done differently? And so when you, when you move
up to a leadership role, I thinkthis is the where the rubber
hits the road in terms of what are you made of when you're,

(06:54):
let's say you're an individual contributor, you could be super
good at that, right? And then think this is the
challenge that a lot of us have is when people move up in the
ranks, is it because they, they think they're supposed to just
because it's kind of the up and out, right?
You go up as far as you can. If you're no longer going, then
you go out and you go somewhere else and then you do rent the
rinse and repeat. But I think often times,
especially in sales is just because you have a really good

(07:15):
salesperson doesn't mean they have to move.
Maybe, maybe they stay in their lane and they're really, really
good at executing and hitting the quarterly targets or annual
quota. And then accelerators kick in
and too often people want to become managers.
But who's poured into them? And I thought about this kind of
like one on ones. Well, who taught you how to do
your weekly one on? Well, my manager.

(07:35):
Well, who taught them? Well, their manager who, who is
to say that this is the right way?
So as I've now gotten into leadership roles, I'm thinking,
can we just take a break for a second and think why are we
doing these one on ones? Or what is I doing to ensure
that I'm building up my team members?
Because the goal is, and you andI talked about this is to teach
them how to do their jobs, maybeeven better than us, right?

(07:56):
You it's all about leadership because we don't want to be the
bottleneck. We want to make sure that our
team members are Steve Jobs at it.
We hire great people and they tell us what to do, not tell
them what to do. We give them coaching, of
course, and guidance. So things that I've learned are
are candid conversations and accountability on a weekly basis
and give them a bone and say this is what good looks like,
how are we going to get there together?

(08:18):
Yeah. I take it you stepped into the
CEO role at Safety IQ, is that right?
So I'm assuming you, you inherited a sales team and a
sales leader, things of that, how, how are you working with
them, you know, especially coming from a sales background
yourself, giving them the autonomy, but also making sure
you're aligned. What was that like in terms of
when you first entered the company and your relationship

(08:40):
going forward? That's a really good question
and the board knew it would be interesting because they they
like that. I had a sales background and I
think I personally believe really good CE OS come from
sales for a couple of reasons. One is we understand people,
pricing and product. I mean, I just, you've been in
the trenches with the customers and marketing teams and so I

(09:01):
think it helps you pull the leverage differently.
So getting into your question, Matt, number one goal is always
is to ask questions and listen, not things too soon.
I had a bunch of people come at me, literally one of my very
first one on ones, they said, can I report to you?
And we have all these things to fix.
And I'm like, I really think that's great.
But I if I don't know what's going on, how can I fix what I

(09:22):
don't know if it's not broken ornot correct, Because there's
people we're really good at chasing problems or trying to
fix problems that may not exist.Again, we've all done it.
I have. And so just understanding how
are we selling our product? What's our pitch?
Do we know what our ICP? I literally started from the
floor up saying, do we know our company internally first?
If not, then we need to figure that out because there were some
challenges of well, we're not selling well.

(09:43):
Well, start with why, right? Simon Steinig, great book.
Start with why? So that's what I did the first
few weeks was having one on oneswith literally every person in
the company. Within week 1, I committed to
one on ones and I completed those and then continue to take
notes and figure out, you know, kind of what my assumptions are
and suss those out as well. Yeah, it's super important in a
leadership role and I applaud you for doing what you just did

(10:04):
and doing it so quickly is to establish a communication and
channel with the folks that are to be reporting up to you.
And it when you're having those conversations to make them
candid. You got, I remember having these
conversations with one of my CE OS, which is my job is to
deliver to you bad news if there's bad news to deliver.
Not to sugarcoat it, because if I'm not being directly honest

(10:27):
and painfully direct with you, I'm of no use to you out in the
field. That's spot on because I think
it does a disservice to everybody.
And as leaders, leadership is not easy.
And I think a lot of people confuse that like again with
managers. Leadership is a lonely job.
You have to make critical decisions that affect people and
their families and livelihoods. You've got board of directors

(10:47):
and in my situation, boards and growth equity companies with 10s
of millions of dollars of capital investment and a runway
to, let's be real, an acquisition or some kind of
merger, some financial transaction.
So if we're sitting around tap dancing around employees about
feelings, we're all adults. We should I make mistakes.
I kind of joked. I'm like, I'm married.
My wife will tell me if I make amistake, you know, I'm joking,
but it's true. But we have to be willing to be

(11:10):
able to have those what I call crucial or critical
conversations because it's my job to improve myself, but it's
my job to improve my employees. And if I wait, I'm hurting the
business. So if I don't fix something
early on and say in that demo, you didn't, you didn't even
qualify. If they had budget, why would I
let that last? Because then it's going to go
through HubSpot and then we're going to wonder why our data
looks bad and why our clothes lost reasons for no budget so

(11:32):
high. That's on me.
I've got to fix that. And if people can't pallet it,
either I have a leadership issueon my side or we've hired the
wrong people, or maybe they're not trainable or coachable.
Yeah, I think one of the key things, at any time something
new happens, a new leader comes in, or you're introducing a new
solution to a potential prospect, there's always the
fear and anxiety and unknown that comes with it, right?

(11:53):
And I love the approach of just listening, right?
We tell all the sellers we work with, just start by listening,
you know, understand, you know what, what they envision this is
going to look like or what theirfears are or some of the things
that they're uneasy about, right?
So it's such a a nice way to come in and be present and be
available and just really take in information before you start,

(12:15):
you know, spouting off the things that are going to change
right away sees you're out the door.
It is, you know, one of the things that's funny, getting
older, you know, you look back on decades now of all the life's
lessons and maybe this is where wisdom comes into play.
I've been very fortunate to havesome wonderful mentors in my
life somewhere, you know, NASDAQ, CE OS and, you know,
worked in multibillion dollar companies.

(12:37):
And so I had direct access to these guys, the chairmans of the
boards and things like that. And, and so one of the things
I've looked at is just because you have something to say, 1
doesn't mean you need to say it.But when I look at the
generations and older executives, they speak fewer
words and they listen instead oflistening to respond, they

(12:57):
listen to gather knowledge. And I think that's something
that's really important that I need to consider.
And to your point, Matt, I walk into this role, they're like,
who's the new guy? I mean, I get it.
It's like because we've all beenthere.
And I even, I use that actually as a launchpad saying, Hey,
listen, I've been in your shoes.1 leaders leave with empathy.
I've been in your shoes. I've had CE OS and new leaders

(13:17):
from the growth equity companiesinstalled and saying things are
going to be different and then what do we know?
Things weren't different. We didn't get budget.
So I try to use my experiences to not make those same mistakes
and hurt those people and actually drive.
I really want to drive a different company and culture
that that people are excited to show up at every day.
Yeah, I remember that old adage.That's why you're born with two

(13:38):
ears and one mouth, so you can do more listening than you do
talking. A lesson that clearly I have not
mastered yet in my professional or personal life.
You know, I'm striving towards it, but that's a great thing.
You get all those perspectives. You find out where your weak
spots are in the organization operationally, structurally,
procedurally, and but it also kind of gives you an insight as

(14:01):
to where you may still have gapsinside of your organization.
Is that not right? It absolutely is right.
I it's funny you say that. I literally have mentioned gaps
and a lot of my calls and my town halls like none of us as
smart as all of us. And I show that I make mistakes
so they feel better. I'm like, listen, I'm the CEO.
I'll make a typo in an e-mail orI'll say something stupid to let
them know, hey, we're all human here.

(14:22):
We're not robots. We're human.
We have feelings and thoughts, but also we have gaps.
Let's find those quicker so we can then move on.
You either pay for it now or payfor it later.
Let's fix this stuff now so thenwe can accelerate down the road
instead of coming to the commandprompt going, what do we do now?
Because we robbed Peter to pay Paul.
And then guess what? Something happened on the
product development side, you know, or, or procurement.

(14:43):
And it was like, whoops. And then you're scrambling and
everybody's upset and then you you lose the momentum you've
built with a gap. Right.
And then as you're doing all that restructuring, collecting
all those points and building that plan, you often find that
you need new people. And that could be it could be
its own challenge, right? It is, you know, and now of
being a first time CEO, I even commended my board.

(15:04):
I said, you know, you rolled thedice on me being a first time
CEO. I was up against lots of
experienced CEO's in the past. And so I knew what I was up
against in terms of capabilitiesand skill sets and accolades.
And so you inherit teams. And this is what I've learned is
a lot of CEO's historically willbring in their leadership team
because they can trust those people.
Subject matter expertise. I mean, it all makes sense.

(15:24):
And I've got a million leadership books on my shelf.
CEO next door, you know, CEO excellence to how to leading and
running teams. And it comes down to org health
and people, though you have to have the right people,
especially in lean operations where you're, you're, you're
running to EBITDA, right EBITDA and, and growth to get to your
profitability or rule the 40 number.
Now those are a lot of pressuresand you, you can't wait to make

(15:46):
a change either maybe wrong person in the wrong role or
maybe they're just not a fit forthe company and you got to RIP
the Band-Aid off like now. And I've had to do, I had to do
that last week with a couple of people.
Yeah, that's always painful, right?
Go ahead, Matt. I didn't mean to step on you
there. No, no, not at all.
I mean, coming in and obviously you talk about gaps, you know,
is everyone in the right role? Is anyone could be in a

(16:08):
different role, right. And then eventually you end up
with what else do we need to fill?
Which leads to the whole thing around hiring now, which I think
it's been a challenge for on both sides for a couple years
now. I mean, what are your
experiences there in terms of getting hiring done and hiring
done right as opposed to just filling the seat?

(16:30):
I thought about, I thought aboutthis, let's talk about, let's
talk about the failures, right? Because it's, I love talking
about it because I think, I think I've learned too.
And maybe this is just getting older guys, I don't know, I have
no shame there's and we need to share this too.
Or especially for the younger generation, you know, younger
people that want to come up like, listen, you're going to
make mistakes. Embrace those because that means
that you're learning something. And so I've made critical errors

(16:50):
on 2 fronts. 1 being in growth equity backed companies, there
is a lot of pressure by their calculations or their excel
sheets and what what your aggressive and you know, new AR
goals are going to be your 30% plus year over year for three
years. I'm like, good grief, that's a
lot. How are we going to get there?
And then with the people and then you have like hiring plans.
I remember one time at our boardmeeting as a QBRI didn't meet my

(17:13):
hiring plans and I got in trouble.
I'm like, well, I'm trying to find quality people.
So then you rush to get bodies in seats and bodies in seats do
not equal productivity, right? It's kind of like don't confuse
motion with progress just because you're facing, you got
people making calls like, well, anybody could do that.
I can make 50 calls right now and have 0 pipeline created and
no opportunities. Well, what happened?
Yogi Berra said if you don't know where you're going, you'll

(17:35):
end up someplace else. I use that frequently with my
teams and have for years. But I made mistakes hiring
people to fulfill quota, my own quotas on headcount because of
the investment dollars. And then guess what happens?
You end up terminating them. And so you've hurt them, you've
hurt the business. And most importantly, we've hurt
the internal company because nowwe've just wasted time, money,
resources, and I got to train people all over again.

(17:56):
And so I think now companies, including myself, there are
roles we can probably hire quicker versus others.
But now you want to be intentional because you want
them to be there long term because the amount of money it
cost us and then how do we continue to build pipeline and
execute really well. So hopefully that does that
answer your question, Matt, I can go deeper, but.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm just curious what are, what

(18:17):
are some of the roles that you think take a longer time?
I mean, I know it really varies by position, but are there any
specific ones that are a little bit more challenging that you
want to make sure that you get right?
Absolutely. So sales leadership is important
because once again, I can hire an account executive and I could
we could suss them out or flesh out a resume pretty quickly or
get on a call like this. And that's how we do it is walk

(18:38):
through pipeline management or calls or scripts or engagement.
Do they have the abilities and attitude?
Are they coachable in others that are efficient?
I can figure that out pretty quick.
That's human to human connection.
But where it becomes more difficult is hiring sales
managers, directors, VPS and then we can get into like a CTOI
brought on. I mean talk about life like

(18:59):
mission critical execution from a daily and a quarterly basis is
do they understand pipeline management?
Do they understand how to have one on ones and coach people and
be responsible versus being busy?
It's building them up, Kevin, like we talked about, it's all
about building a culture of excellence and accolades and
always training because managers.

(19:20):
I had this in Gong. I had to be in Gong.
I had 23 people reporting to me.I couldn't get a manager.
There wasn't budget even though there was.
So I'm like, OK, this is difficult.
So you're spending Saturday, Sunday and sleep time.
The three s s I learned in my info systems class in College in
the early thousands is you're going through gone calls and
this is before they ended corporate at AI, thank goodness.
But you're trying to figure out,OK, what are they doing really

(19:42):
well at? It's like golf.
If you don't play it regularly, you're going to be bad.
It's sales. If you're not a good sales
leader and you're not in there every day showing your employees
and your sales people what good looks like, no wonder why their
numbers aren't going to be greator you were going to miss gaps,
right? Going back to the gap, there's
this really good influencer, Kevin Katie Dorsey I met through
Level Equity Partners. He's a phenomenon, like a huge

(20:03):
sensation. He's super passionate about
sales leadership and coaching and training people up.
And I learned a lot from him andI've gotten to know him
personally. Just a wonderful guy that helped
me make sure that I'm focusing on the right the right things
for the employee. So I understand having to fill
seats of critical roles before. I know that it can often be
challenging to find the right person to fill that role.

(20:27):
But it's interesting. And we had a conversation about
this as you were talking about the interview track that you
were following to get into the position you're in now.
You've mentioned it was highly competitive.
It just seems to be. And there's a lot of folks that
will be listening to our call who unfortunately are on the
side of looking for a position inside of the industry today.
There seems to be a perception on those on the interviewee side

(20:49):
that the number of interviews, the complexity of the
interviews, are far more arduousthan they ever were in the past.
Now obviously you're going to need to get the right fit.
Is there other reasons why we were finding ourselves with
those protracted interview windows as both the hirer and
the hirer? Yes, I'll use my personal

(21:12):
experience. My interview process for CEO was
over two months. In fact, one of my mentors,
again, highly successful CEO, NASDAQ CEO, he goes, I commend
your board. He's like, we don't spend that
much time hiring CEO's or C-Suite executives.
And so I think what happened wasfor these companies that have a
lot of growth and targets in mind and leadership and a lot of

(21:34):
money on the line. And, and let's say there was a
misfire before, right? It happens.
It's, it's, it's common, it can happen.
They, they have one shot to get it right again.
And so I think there's, there's that, you know, you ready fire
aim, you want to make sure you, you get it out the gate and you
know, versus 8020, maybe it's 9010 or maybe it's 95.5 on terms
of getting your ducks in a row. I can't tell you how many

(21:55):
debrief calls I had preparation.I mean, I spent Memorial Day
weekend. There was a call on a Monday on
Memorial Day and I said yes, because you're not going to say
no. So I said, absolutely, I'll do
it on Memorial Day weekend, spent all weekend practicing all
the questions in the prompts andthen going back and just, you
know, getting just, you know, peppered by these questions,
you're just walk away going, Oh my gosh, that was a train wreck,

(22:16):
you know, and then how do you think you did?
Most of us are probably hard on ourselves, but I think the
reality is, is people are afraidto screw up and make mistakes,
even at the board level, even atthe executive level, because
we're all human. Like we get we get this, this,
this perception that it that's not the case that where we have
our act together and reality is,is we still have feelings and
emotions. I also think companies are over

(22:38):
complicating it too, though, Youknow, let's look at larger
companies too, you know, companies of let's say middle
market, upper middle market companies, you know, thousand
2500 workers. I think HR over complicates it
interview after interview. And that hurts the candidate
too, because it's like, how muchhow much do you really want to
talk to me? Because for me, interviews are,

(23:00):
can this person articulate themselves well?
Do I think they're trustworthy? Because all of our interviews
now are done via teams and things like that.
It's we're no longer in offices,which it's hard to size up
somebody when they're sitting across from a table from you
versus our environment here. So you have to put a lot of
faith in technology and how the person presents.
So maybe you, you now have 4 calls versus 2 and face

(23:21):
interviews where we used to justhave member people did the round
Robins coming into the offices and you're like a candidate.
You're like, oh, who's next? You know, it's, it's like the
price is right. What's behind door 3?
And so I think that's kind of compounded interviewing.
And then look, let's look, be real.
Let's look at the job layoffs inthe saturated market.
Now there's huge candidate poolsto pull from people like, well,
we'll take our time. We'll find the right candidate

(23:41):
out there. We'll, we'll spend 90 days or
six months interviewing, going for a role and they're willing
to give up revenue for that. Do I agree with it?
Probably not. I think we could, you know, you
could cut that in half and and take your chances if you have
good interview questions. But you bring up an interesting
point there. So the criticality of the role,
the impact and consequence of getting a bad hire into a

(24:02):
critical role and taking the time to make sure you're getting
the right fit. I mean, I understand exactly
where you're going there. And we had a brief conversation
about this gun and you came up from the consulting ranks as
well. Do you think that that's where
organizations like fractional consulting firms that can come
in and act in that role, you getinstant pudding with respect to
the person coming in with the experience and expertise to make

(24:24):
an impact and hold the Fort on that critical role that you've
got inside your organization. So you have got the time to go
out and get it right. Do you think that with the surge
of fractional consultancies thatare out there, is that also
partly why organizations feel enabled to do that?
I mean, it could be because it, let's, let's go back to our gap

(24:45):
thing. If you hire a fractional person
that has subject matter expertise, let's say in your
industry, you as an executive team are like, OK, Kevin knows
what he's talking about. Matt's part of Kevin's team.
They're coming in. They, they know they can jump in
immediately and fix the problem.However, I think the challenge
that I see is how did I think and hiring fast can fix today's
problem, but it'll create maybe turnover or friction tomorrow,

(25:07):
right? Ralph Aldo Emerson said your
decisions you make today count twice as much tomorrow.
OK, so you get a fractional person in.
But here's the problem I see. And you could probably tell I'm
very relational. I just some of my skill sets are
interpersonal communication and and connecting with people.
So you can get a fractional person in there to do sales,
marketing, finance person. And it comes like this is a
great deal. We're 1099 them and we're saving

(25:29):
money. That's that's wonderful.
But the problem is, is they're, they're a consultant and, and
unless it's, I think a shorter stint, you're not building
relational equity with the teams.
So what happens when you don't do that?
Trust isn't there, team collaboration isn't there.
You're going to lose out on a lot of things that propel our
companies in terms of the team environment and how those are

(25:50):
structured and built. And that's with leadership.
See if you have AC suite leadership role that's
fractional, I think you're goingto pay the piper down the road.
I could be wrong. I mean, I'm sure there's
companies that have seen successwith it, but I think that's the
gap that I see from a fractionalpoint where companies now are
inclined to do that maybe to save on money because they're
unsure, right? The last few quarters have been
very awkward. I'm an A's down, so they're

(26:11):
like, let's just go hire someoneto keep us through 2025 as we
watched interest rates or what global economics are doing.
Those are also playing complicate an already
complicated business because it's people run and it's sales.
Absolutely. But there's the and I think you
identified it correctly when you're talking about the highest
level echelon of leadership inside the organization, that's
a figurehead that needs to be there.

(26:33):
But at the support levels underneath, that's where you can
get view those economies of scale relative to expertise
that's automatic, that can fit underneath the leadership role
so that they can buoy the organization through those gaps
where it like, say, instead of like talking about like a CRO,
you need to have AVP of a particular region or you need a

(26:55):
head of enablement, or you need someone that's working in
product marketing where you can bring in that expertise and then
buoy people through to mitigate the risk inside that
organization of having that gap,but also mitigate the risk of
getting a bad hire as well. That's exactly right, yeah.
But to your point about and by the way, you're going to have to

(27:16):
send me that quote because I want to include that in the
notations and the details of this episode.
It's got to be in there. I thought that that was
brilliant. I want to make sure I get that
one right because there's the the adage inside you brought
brought it up earlier. Speed kills when it comes to
sales and it can either kill well or it can kill very badly.

(27:36):
You and I had a conversation about the knee jerk reaction
that often happens inside of theorganization.
You just talked about it. You alluded to it earlier on.
An organization gets a little bit of money and they
immediately go and rush. They want to go out and grow
their sales team, but they're putting the cart before the
horse, the ready fire AIM as youcalled it just a moment ago.

(27:58):
Tell me a little bit about that.What have been your experiences
with organizations that have gone, OK, we got money, let's go
hire people. And you're like, wait, what?
I've experienced that. So a couple rolls ago I was
brought in as AVP of sales, first time ever for another EHS
software business backed by a private equity company.
And they were like, I'll just call 3 independent agents, State

(28:19):
Farm agents. I felt like when I walked into
the business, company was maybe like 5 million AR.
So, you know, good business. Maybe 3030 or 40 people, I
think, I can't remember. It's, it's been a few years.
Could have been less, but but what I'm getting at is so I'm
tasked with growing this, this company.
Yes, there's capital infusion. Do I get all of it?
Absolutely not. That's going to go for, you

(28:40):
know, product and other people and support and marketing.
But but I was tasked with hiringpeople.
I'm like, well, before I hire people, maybe we should get look
at our go to market. Do we know who we're selling to
and why do we know what we accelerate, accelerate and why
is this our strategic plan? Because once again, I could
throw bodies at it, but that's just going to waste everybody's
time because we're chasing business that either doesn't

(29:00):
exist or our proposition isn't compelling enough or sales, our
sales motion or motions don't line up with what's marketing
doing. Or have we communicated
directly? Are we driving MQLS that are
resonating with the prospects out there?
You know, before, like in tent, you know, indicators and Gartner
came around. I mean, all the stuff we did
years ago, you know, before all the tech came around, it's like

(29:22):
we need to have a plan and a process.
And I think what I'm getting at too is you have to put together
a really good plan. What are the comp plans?
What are the bogeys? What are what are they chasing
out? Is the ACV attainable?
Can we increase that? How many deals a year is that
going to take? There's actually a lot of math
behind. And I think I read this this
weekend. If you want to be a good leader
and a manager as well, you must know math, but you got to know

(29:43):
Excel because if you can actually get down to science and
prove it out, it is not an art. There's there's ways in which we
can improve our sales skills if we're getting back to sales and
hiring because it's kind of the focus here.
But you have to know your numbers and you have to know how
you're going to get there, looking at the outcome and then
work your way back from the outcome.
And then, OK, it's going to takefour people to get to this
revenue goal of new logos, right?

(30:05):
Not just expansion or or preventing churn, it's actual
new revenue being injected into the business aside from, you
know, getting into NRR. So I think those are some of the
things that we need to consider as leaders.
And I don't think a lot of people are putting enough effort
on that. And then they wonder why they
fail because we have to have good analytical data and a brain
or at least people, maybe some really good Rev OPS people that

(30:26):
can help us. That's an important part.
So once you do all that kind of due diligence, defining the ICP,
defining your the value messaging for different things
as well, how do you then take that to then hire sales people
correctly? I mean, what are the the key
things that you kind of use to kind of look for the your
targets in terms of who you're going to add to the

(30:46):
organization? Yeah, good question.
So if I'm looking for like an AElevel one or two, you know,
maybe like an entry level personcuz you know, don't have
infinite budget. So, you know, looking at like a
6565 split or maybe 7575, something like that reasonable
to where they could live on their own and still make good
commissions. I'm looking for the the biggest
thing that I look for is do theyhave the right attitude?

(31:08):
I can teach and coach. We can all learn anything we
want. There's ChatGPT YouTube, right?
I mean, we're in an age where I we can learn almost anything.
But what you can't fix is somebody shoehorning their
attitude into your culture. And if you have the wrong person
with the wrong attitude or they can't do or a toxic traits,
that's going to that's going to that will infect your team and
hurt your team. And I've learned that you've got

(31:30):
to have energetic high people that are are self starters and
achievers and have this tenacityto win in the hunger.
If you don't hire for that, everything else, I think
honestly is, is just kind of part and parcel or maybe a moot
point because they're not going to listen to all that if they've
got the wrong attitude or maybe they're too prideful and
arrogant. I don't like that on my teams.
I don't care how good you are ifyou're not a team player with me

(31:52):
and people might disagree with me on that, but I want people to
actually want to be here and andactually be able to work with
them and help build the company and have great ideas and be
willing to to meet me at the 50 yard line, you know, in the
middle of the field. That's what.
I have, I think that that's kindof the challenge, right?
And so is it, do you rely upon references?
Do you rely upon 20 interviews? It's like, how do you get to

(32:13):
that point? Are there certain things you
pick up on? Again, it's it's really hard
over over Zoom and you know, video to get that really a
sense. So I think, you know, references
I think are always key, you know, in terms of who you know
and who knows them. But are there any other things
that you leverage to try to figure that out?
Yeah, outside references. The references are really good,
personal professional too, because I also look at social

(32:35):
media. So here's one of the things that
we've gotten good at over the years is, is somebody is going
to be professional in in terms of an interview, go to their
social media and see what they post on Facebook.
Is that person who was in the interview reflective of how they
behave outside of the business because they're an extension of
the company. So if not doing something that I
don't think is of high moral character or something I
wouldn't do want to representingme, I'm going to find that out.

(32:57):
Personal references we all know are really good because it's
like, what's this person like outside of the office place?
Do they represent the same characteristics that they drive
in the business? And if so, that's what I want
because I want somebody that is like on that who is built into
their DNA. The other thing I like to do in
interviews are really challenging their thought
process. I look for high emotional
intelligence. When I ask a question, I don't

(33:18):
want a response right away. Steve Jobs used to do that 19
second delay that feels like an eternity.
Could you imagine being in a room with Steve Jobs asking him
a question and he spends 19 seconds formulating a a
response? But what I think that does is
that shows me that this person has critical thinking skills.
They're going to be my problem solver because what do we do in
sales? We are here to connect and solve

(33:38):
our customers challenges. We already know they want our
product because they already submitted a demo or a retrial
request. And so I was like, all right, so
move that out of the way. Can we then go down the path of
discovery, making sure that we're asking them the right
questions and being conversational and intentional
with sales training, for example?
And that's what I really like todo in interview processes.
What's the thought process like?How do you work?

(33:59):
What? What gets you going?
Yeah, I understand having run enablement for a long period of
time, I can teach someone technology, I can teach them how
an application works. I can teach them all the the
information about what the valueproposition is.
A lot harder to teach them to becurious, to be thoughtful inside
of that process of asking those questions, to establish that

(34:21):
report, to establish that understanding with people.
So with that being considered, what are some of the risks that
are involved from your perspective when you're getting
this pressure that's coming downfrom on high now your CEO, so it
would be coming from the board to go and take actions or do you
were talking about the sales numbers they come down with an

(34:43):
unrealistic, we want you to hit 40% of growth this year and your
data internally says 20. How do you guys address that
then so you don't get forced into doing some of these bad
decisions or potentially detrimental actions?
I like to start with analytics. So facts, facts are there for
reason. That way I don't say the arms

(35:04):
and ORS or I feel okay every. We all have feelings, but that
doesn't solve the problem. So I like to look at things like
wool, OK, if you want these numbers.
Let's go back to what happened in the beginning.
Who put the go to market together?
Does the go to market still align with what's happened in
the industry today? What's our total addressable
market? What's your average contract
value? Are we confident we're actually

(35:25):
selling to the right people for our product?
Does our product fit the market?What's the sales cycle?
You know, are we talking 8080 day sales cycles or are we more
on the upper middle market, maybe enterprise where our sales
cycles 9 to 12 months plus? If that's the case, kind of
going back to I said earlier in the call, go look at the outcome
and then do the math backwards and say okay, fine.
If you want eight and a half million dollars of let's just

(35:47):
say new revenue this year, new local revenue.
Historically, our ACV has been let's say $75,000 in the average
sales cycle is 2 days and it's multiple touch points.
You're going to have to make an awful lot of calls and
conversions. And I think what happens is when
you have people and you know, board members are very
intelligent, most of the time they wouldn't be there if they
weren't successful. But I think sometimes we have to

(36:08):
tie that back to what is the outcome to what is the financial
math say for each salesperson orcapacity of salespeople based on
how many calls can they make, how many MQLS are getting pushed
through? What is the sales accepted lead
conversion rate, you know, and then what's the actual market
close rate? I remember a couple years ago we
were working on our car win rate.
It was, it was traditionally low.
And I'm like, why? Like why are we at 12 or 13%?

(36:31):
We need to bump it up. The market was at, I think at
the time like 20 something percent, 30%.
Then the market bumped back and had to explain to the board on
my calls, hey, actually this really good company that is
known to train global companies and sales methodology and
process has also admitted they've seen complete pull back
on when and close rates. So then you tied that numbers

(36:52):
and not as an excuse, but to say, I want to talk reality
here. And I think the hardest part
that I've learned in pushing back on these companies is, and
this happens, I remember one time at my first growth equity
company, it was Providence Equity Partners.
I think I can show that I didn'tsay the company, but you get a
phone call from your general manager like, well, why do you
need that? Well, because my manager asked.
Well, who asked them? Well, my manager asked.
And then finally you get to thislike somebody from the board

(37:13):
asked them and they do the plaintiff the game of phone tag.
And so then you're scrambling asa team to pull data out of SFDC
at the time. Why?
Because they were out of perhapsmay have been out of touch or
didn't understand. And then we get in their frenzy
and then we have these pressuresput on us is how many numbers
are actually realistic to achieve.
And the average sales Rep last year, I think the average sales

(37:35):
Rep, 40% of reps were hitting quota.
I think we have a pretty big problem in the industry and
that's who is setting these quotas and why.
And our sales leaders pushing back saying our teams are
exhausted now these numbers are unreachable.
No wonder why they've just all given up.
I don't know. That sounds like a doomsday
thing, but it's it's, I think it's a reality.
Yeah, I've seen so many times where it's like, oh, you need to

(37:56):
double the sales number, double the number of reps you got.
There you go. Problems.
We know that doesn't work right body.
'S at it that'll solve the problem No, it won't That's
exactly right and then you freakout on Sunday night Oh my gosh
I'm going to get those reports or how am I going to do this or
you you're you're putting your data into your QVR slide deck
and just you just go I can't tell you how many times I felt

(38:17):
uneasy. I hated going into those calls
because it's I had an activist board member, even when we won
you guys, even when we had we'relike 114% above at quota, I
still would do something wrong. It's like, man, you can't win
for losing. So, and that's on a good day.
And I think, I think more sales people need to be in other
leadership roles because we knowwhat it takes.
And I think we need to bring some sense and sensibility and

(38:39):
also maybe pull back on some of these unattainable growth
numbers. Like, let's be realistic about
what we're trying to do, and that's helping people and solve
problems. Right.
You mentioned metrics a lot whenyou're talking about, you know,
planning appropriately etcetera.I imagine for every department
across the company, there's certain metrics that are
obviously much different. But do you try to have kind of a

(39:01):
set of numbers or things that you're measuring towards in each
department and how are you with with getting those?
I'm going through that right now.
In fact, I was speaking with my Chairman of the board.
I, I speak with him regularly and we were working on new
metrics for our business. What are we benchmarking
ourselves across and, and for, for a high growth, you know,
kind of a startup ish company. Again, volatile companies don't

(39:23):
like KPI's and I think a lot of companies and I want to make
sure I don't misrepresent myself.
Metrics are great. But to your point, Matt, it's
what are you measuring and how many are you measuring?
I think we can metric ourselves to death.
I like a handful, maybe 5. You know, typically, you know,
ARR cash on hand, hiring, churn,NRR, you know, the important
indicators are our customers sticking with us?

(39:43):
Why is expansion up? Is contraction down?
Is churn up or down? Why is it M&A?
Are they going out of business? I can accept that for churn.
If it's churn because of a product issue or pricing, that's
unacceptable to me. So we need to know why we're
losing them. Then fix that problem off to the
CTO. I got into the tickets.
I'm like, what's the deal with our ticketing?
Walk me through this like, well,all the tickets are customer

(40:04):
success related because of username and password stuff like
still like that was a problem like 12/13/14 years ago.
Let's fix that. They're like, Oh my gosh,
really? I'm like, yes, let's fix that
because now we're consuming, youknow, and developers are
expensive, I mean. They're really expensive.
They can be more than some senior executives if you've got
a really good developer on hand because they keep our platforms
moving and, and and together. So like going back and fixing

(40:25):
some of the most simple problems.
Going back to my question on hiring, I think we over
complicated and somebody wants to bring in some new.
I mean, how many excel sheets have you guys seen with like
20,000 tabs at the bottom? Like Oh my gosh, like I have an
MBA in finance and even I'm likeI I don't know what I'm looking
at. Can somebody help me as GPT
there to analyze what this is? Break it, break it on down for
me here chat. I think, I think we, we get

(40:47):
consumed with all this technology and stuff and, and
maybe have I don't know, am I wrong?
Have we have we like ventured off on?
I don't know if growth equity, I've done a lot of consulting
calls over the last year. I'm like, I think growth equity
has done great things, but I think it's it's taken away what
founders really people that had built companies based on a
passion or a desire to help people or fix or solve a
problem. Have we lost sight of what that

(41:09):
is over generating revenue? Yes, it's capitalism.
I love it. It's great.
We've all done well in it, but maybe we need to pull back a
little bit and figure out what what are we really trying to
solve and and actually lead companies instead of exhaust our
people week on and week out for money.
I like that. I mean, last thing, Kevin, I'll
let you get in here. Sorry, but no, no, it's fine.

(41:32):
I do. Think I'm enjoying your
questions. Do you think we've optimized and
gamified every aspect of everything so much that it's
taken the humanity out of a lot of it, right?
And I think it's a problem across the board.
We've we've just gotten so good at just slicing everything up so
much just to get the slight advantage.

(41:55):
I think there'll be a little bitof a swing back.
And so it's interesting to see kind of where we are with that
right now because there is so much information, there is so
much data, right? And I think that's why, you
know, the, the AI chat GPTS of the world and things are doing
well because it's just helping us like, OK, just break this
down for me, please. You know, right or wrong in
terms of what it comes up with. But you know, we're all seeking

(42:18):
that from somewhere. That was well put.
I, I, it's overwhelming. Like I get on LinkedIn and I'm a
high functioning, high capacity person.
I'm tired. I'm exhausted from these long
LinkedIn post or people sharing their story of how they're
moving on or doing something else or now we're gamifying.
Like you said, I'm like, maybe we should go back to flip phones
and reaching out to people. I still say Rolodex, right?

(42:39):
And now I'm like aging my, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I seriously
say Rolodex. I'm laughing at myself.
I say film when I've got my iPhone.
Like I'm filming my kids. Like, what does that even mean?
But what I'm getting at is I hadreached out to a customer that
was disappointed with us a couple weeks ago and I said,
we're going to do the right thing.
I literally asked customers because I'm like, get me, get me
his e-mail and his number. I called the guy.
We had a 30 minute conversation,one-on-one conversation.

(43:01):
All we talked about was, I'm sorry, we can do better.
Tell us how to improve and we'lldo that.
And and that's what we did. We, we kept the human element
there and it felt so good. I didn't have a computer in
metrics. I didn't have HubSpot telling
what my probability of whatever and who talked the most of the
least and what the outcome is going to be.
It was me calling that saying can we have a conversation?
Yeah. I mean, I think that there's a

(43:22):
take away to take from this episode that I hope people get.
I think it's that one, you alluded to it, you had defined
it earlier on in the episode, which is find out what your
problem you're solving and stay focused on that and stay focused
on the big picture items and make sure you understand the
context of the stuff that you'relooking at.

(43:44):
Cuz yeah, we're drowning in data.
And as a result, people have a tendency to fixate on the part
of the data that they wanna go and look at without realizing
the context, the implications ofwhat that data means to the
bigger problem. That's true of leadership in
terms of leading people and building teams and building
trust, but it's also true of organizational direction as

(44:04):
well. That's it.
I'm glad this kind of came out. I'm curious as to what the
listeners are going to respond with.
It's kind of fun just to speak just organically about these
things. And maybe, I don't know, Matt,
maybe like you said, humanized life and business a little more.
Just what happens when we get older is we now have become
philosophers in life and you know, you remember this and I
think it's kind of neat how humans are built.

(44:25):
Like in our early years, we werebuilt to be aggressive.
And I think that's important, you know, hunter gatherer mode
of what we learned about years ago.
You need that. But then as you get older, maybe
we can take a step back and say,let's analyze ourselves for a
minute and take a break. It's okay to do that.
There's nothing wrong. We're not.
Having kids has made a difference as well, of course,
because that you're not going tomanage the kids through metrics,

(44:45):
right? It's it's very human, very real.
Yeah. Can you imagine trying to sit
around the dinner table and dealing with your kids like you
did, like you're running a salesmeeting, like a forecasting
call? OK, Tommy, how did your quarter
go today? Tell me, how are you doing with
respect to, you know, the the Boy Scouts?
I don't see any leadership coming out of you here.
Yeah. Yeah.

(45:06):
I want to be in the room when that one takes place, quite
frankly. I love that comment.
I have no, I, I actually will, I'll tell you this.
I had a manager and they didn't have kids.
And I actually, and this was before I I had kids.
I think I was just recently married.
I noticed it was, it was a big problem.
And I've noticed that people that have kids seem to have a
different perspective on life because they ground us and they

(45:27):
teach us humility and they teachus things about ourselves.
Oh, they do indeed. They.
Galvanized us in like what the importance of life is and and
even leading and coaching other people that it's very
interesting to think about that connection.
No, absolutely. I would love to.
We could easily continue this conversation for like another
half an hour to an hour, but we would be here all day, which I'd
be fine with, but it would be a very long podcast.

(45:50):
If there's still so many things we could be uncovering about
this. If any of the listeners were are
considering going into AC level organization, if there or if
there's one that's recently comeinto the into the position, what
advice might you give them? Taking all the things we've been
talking about today? What would if you could sit down
with them over a cup of cup of coffee?
What are kind of the pearls of wisdom you drop for them?

(46:11):
Know yourself. We're old enough at this point
to know who we are. Stand by your convictions.
I wake up every day. I'm like, I have the ultimate
authority and it's on me and I have to execute.
So be confident in that and justknow we're going to.
John Maxwell talks about failingforward.
I embrace it. I'm like, OK, today I'm going to
do XY and Z, but good leaders lead with empathy.
I, I think that is a, that is a sign of, of strength, not

(46:34):
weakness, because it means that we now have the ability to sit
and talk to Kevin and say, Hey, look, I've, I've been in your
shoes or what's bothering you today or have a good enough
relationship saying we're all here getting paid to do a job.
But like life happens right now.I've got kids running around,
dogs are barking finally inside.I wanted to like mute, but I'm I
can't because this I'm, I'm on alive thing.

(46:56):
Make it human, humanize the experience.
And I'm telling you, you do that.
It is amazing that the walls that come down and I, I, I'm
excited to say like in the six weeks that I've been here, the
employee sentiment is off the charts.
And what did I, I didn't bring us some magic bullet.
I sat down and talked to people like regular people, one-on-one
and say, how can I fix this? I need honesty from you.

(47:17):
I can't fix what I don't know. We're in this together and I'm
going to lead by example. You lead from the back and not
the front. Also, you cannot be worried
about if people are going to judge you or not.
I get along with a lot of people.
There are people probably that don't like me and I don't like
some people. That's the way of life.
Get over it. Get over yourself because that's
leadership. And if and if you've you've had
leadership roles and you go intosenior leadership, the air is

(47:40):
thinner at the top, right? I remember growing up hearing
that. It is absolutely true and
there's no excuses. You got to own it.
If you can't gut it, stay where you're at.
But if you want to take a challenge and and actually
sharpen yourself, it is a great ride because where I am today
versus a year ago versus three or five years ago, Oh my gosh,
night and day and even just talking to you guys, it's like I

(48:00):
remember being 20 saying listen to guys like us talk.
I'm like, I wonder what it's like to be them.
And now you're the person in theroom speaking from experience,
like what happened? Where'd the last 20 plus years
ago? When did that happen?
When did that happen? I'm like, no, I'm like, you
didn't tell me about this, like,you know, but that's the
exciting part of light is embrace the journey too and
don't be too hard on yourself because we are all probably,

(48:22):
we're all in the same boat thinking the same thing.
We're just not sharing it with one another.
Be vulnerable. It's OK to do that.
I think that's going to help make the difference from good
companies to great companies. Great book.
Absolutely, I I could not agree with you more.
And to add to that, my thing would be don't be afraid to make
mistakes, but don't be reach outbecause it you know that there's

(48:43):
a tendency, the further you know, as the air gets thin to
pull in and stay within yourselfand only talk to yourself
because you don't want to extendthat burden out to anybody else.
But but you, there are people like you that that they can
reach out to people like Matt and I get perspective from other
people. Don't just keep it inside.
You don't have to carry the burden alone.

(49:04):
Bring in other perspectives and and stick by your convictions.
Wholeheartedly agree with you there, Corey.
If people want to reach out to you for those very reasons,
what's the best way for them to go and reach out to?
You oh, I'm on LinkedIn, LinkedIn Corey Bruce.
I think that's literally my name.
I don't have any special acronyms.
They could, they could find me. I'm at safety IQ.
I'm all over or reach out through you guys.

(49:26):
Please connect. I love helping people.
You know, I like I said, I'll jump this in because I'm kind of
hijacking your question, your question about connecting.
But we were designed to do life together.
And I taught a college course last semester or last, last I
said, don't be afraid to ask forhelp.
That's the one thing I told these 18 to 20 year olds in a
business class ready to graduatewas don't be afraid to raise

(49:47):
your hand and say, how can you help me?
People love to help other people.
So yeah, I think Linkedin's probably the easiest way to go.
Don't worry, we'll put the link the link to your profile on
LinkedIn. We'll be in the diddly do down
below in the description area ofthis episode.
Give them a quick click and thenyou guys can reach out to Corey.
Unfortunately, that does bring us to the end of our episode

(50:09):
today. Even though I've had a great
time talking with Corey about this, you can see that we're all
of us around the table here. We're getting very excited about
these particular topics and hopefully it was for you guys to
map any thoughts or perspectivesto share here before we wrap
today. No, just a pleasure, Corey.
Good luck in your new endeavor there.
I'm sure you do well and really really enjoy talking with you.

(50:30):
Likewise guys, thank you for having me.
It's it's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed this today
and sharing my experience and I hope it's resonated or helped
other people out listening. I'm certain it it has.
And I want to echo Matt's comments about thanking you for
coming on. I've had an absolute blast today
and it's always a pleasure to talk to you and I can't wait to
have a conversation with you again.
But ladies and gentlemen, as I said, that is the end of our

(50:52):
episode today. So if you enjoyed what we said,
please give a like follow a subscribe.
And to Corey's point, what did we get right?
If you have feedback you'd like to share on any of the topics we
had on today's episode, please drop a comment on whatever
platform you're listening to us on.
If you'd like, go to our website, buy our book, The
methodology that math Matthew and I are often talking about on

(51:14):
the show. Matthew, I've never called you
Matthew before you, but there wego, Sound.
Like a mom now. I do.
It's like whenever I used to getall you know, I knew how much
trouble I was in by the number of middle names that got thrown
in. That's that my generation, too.
I'm with you guys, yeah. You've you heard all your middle
names be somewhere else because you were in serious trouble.

(51:36):
But in all seriousness, please give us the feedback.
Go to our website buyer book. But with that, until then, take
care, be well.

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Ep. 30: Guest Corey Bruce - Must-Haves for Sales Leaders in 2025

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 30: Guest Corey Bruce - Must-Haves for Sales Leaders in 2025