August 4, 2025 • 16 mins
Every year, America educates the world's brightest minds—then kicks them out. Immigration attorney Melissa Harms exposes how our archaic H-1B visa system forces Silicon Valley companies to mail paper applications like it's 1925. With only 85,000 visas for hundreds of thousands of applicants, Stanford PhDs have the same 25% lottery odds as entry-level workers. Meanwhile, $44 billion in international student investment flees to countries that actually want global talent. This isn't immigration policy—it's economic sabotage.
Timestamps:
- (00:00) Introduction and Episode Overview
- (01:14) The Broken Immigration System: $44 Billion Brain Drain
- (01:50) Meet Melissa Harms: 25 Years Fighting Immigration Bureaucracy
- (02:41) Visa System Challenges: When CEOs Can't Get Visas
- (05:54) The H-1B Visa Dilemma: Medieval Lottery for Modern Talent
- (11:17) Student Visas and the Lottery System: 9 Tries, No Success
📢 Solving America’s Problems Podcast – Real Solutions For Real Issues
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jerremy Newsome (00:00):
The people want to know Conley.
(00:03):
What are we talking about today?
Dave Conley (00:05):
In this week's episode of Solving America's Problems, we examine
the outdated structures crippling ourimmigration system, where businesses and
universities invest billions, trainingand educating cutting edge global talent
only to face an immigration system so oldit forces Silicon Valley to mail paper
applications like its 1925, not 2025.
At the heart of these issues arepoliticians unable or unwilling to
(00:26):
change laws in 40 years, companiesdesperately trying to hire Stanford PhD,
curing cancer have the same 25% chanceas anyone else, and your best sales
person from Canada, or entrepreneur fromEurope, starting the next great company.
Have no chance at all.
Our guest, Melissa Harms brings 25years of experience as an attorney on
the front lines of immigration law.
She helps fortune five hundreds,startups, universities, and biotech
(00:50):
labs navigate the broken bureaucracyand inefficient government systems
driving America's innovation overseas.
She's taught immigration courses at CalState and the University of California,
and speaks nationally for the AmericanImmigration Lawyers Association on
navigating visa challenges to retaintop talent and drive economic growth.
And that's this week on solving America'sproblems, paper planes, and brain drain.
(01:11):
America's talent crisiswith Melissa harms.
Jerremy Newsome (01:14):
Every year, America educates the world's brightest minds.
Then we kick them out.
International students pump 44 billioninto our economy, but we hand them
diplomas with deportation notices.
Meanwhile, companies from SiliconValley to Main Street follow every rule,
pay every fee, but still can't fillall the jobs they desperately need.
(01:37):
What's the result?
Cities from Beijing to Berlin are thinkingus for the best talent in the world.
I'm Jerremy Alexander Newsom withmy co-host Dave Conley, and this
is solving America's Problems.
Today we have Melissa Harms 25 years as animmigration attorney on the front lines.
(01:58):
the one CEOs call when the Visasystem threatens their best people
Silicon Valley to University Labs.
She knows exactly where thisthing is broken, and we're
gonna be discussing that.
Melissa, welcome to the show.
Melissa Harms (02:13):
Thanks, Jerremy.
I'm not sure I can sayexactly where it's broken.
It's broken in many places.
I don't have, if I had the recipe tofix this, I'd be making a lot more money
than I am right now, that's for sure.
Jerremy Newsome (02:23):
You at least know all the things that are broken, or
Melissa Harms (02:25):
I can, yes, I can tell you it's broken.
Maybe not how to fix it.
Jerremy Newsome (02:29):
That's okay.
That, the good news is we'regonna have a conversation.
We get to use your ideas and yourthoughts and your beliefs, and
Dave's whimsical concepts of howto change and make adaptations.
That's why we're here.
Lemme throw this at you, 25 yearsMelissa, helping businesses and
universities navigate immigration.
Did you know in law school that you wantedto do employment and immigration law?
Melissa Harms (02:53):
Yes and no.
I did initially start out in employmentlaw really thinking I wanted to
get into employment discrimination.
I've always been interestedin women's issues.
I was a public policy major in collegebut not so much immigration, although I
loved travel and international cultures.
I hadn't really been thought aboutimmigration and quite honestly fell
(03:13):
into it after doing the big firmroute for a little while and realizing
that's not where my heart was.
Really wanting to pursue afield of law where I felt like
I could enact social change.
While also using my analyticalskills and law degree.
And so that's how I sort of happenstanceinto immigration a few years
after graduation from law school.
Jerremy Newsome (03:33):
And just as like a brief.
I dunno, maybe this might be more for me.
the heck is immigration law?
What are you doing?
Are you changing the policies?
Are you working with individuals?
Melissa Harms (03:44):
That's a really good question.
We have a fair share of policy.
Like we like to call them policywalks that are working for the
national, on the national level.
Doing lobbying and telling, comingup with what the fair systems are.
We have a national group called AmericanImmigration Lawyers Association, which
is about 15,000 immigration lawyersnationwide and they're really in
charge of doing a lot of the lobbyingwork disseminating information.
(04:07):
I've been involved withthem on many levels.
Recently working with them on technology.
And we worked with USAS on technologyfor immigration which was great, but
ultimately after the administrationchange led to a whole lot of nothing,
which is a theme that we mightcontinue throughout our conversation.
But in the actual practice of immigrationlaw, we really have two different sectors.
(04:28):
We have those who help with deportationremoval, so those are the people who
are on the front lines of the border whoare working with undocumented workers.
Trying to figure out some sort ofrelief for them once they're in that
pod of being unauthorized coming hereillegally or falling out of status.
And then we also have the other potof immigration lawyers, which are
the business immigration attorneys.
(04:49):
And that's where I fall.
We're the ones that work with corporationsand companies and universities to
obtain visas for people who are herenow legally, or maybe people who are
outside the US who we wanna bring over.
But we generally don't touch thepool of, that's almost like a whole
nother field of law working inthe deportation aspect of things.
Jerremy Newsome (05:09):
But still really fascinating because after, don't
know, probably 12 conversations onthis topic, it would also seem that
I think the majority of listeners,the majority of participants, they
feel like the biggest immigration,at least the largest challenge.
And from a number standpoint,it is, like you mentioned, the
undocumented, the asylum seekers.
(05:31):
But what you're mentioning is havethe individuals who are working,
who wanna work in a differentcountry, global corporations.
And you would think that would be arelatively straightforward process.
what it sounds like isthat's not the case at all.
So when CEO or university presidentscome to you, what's their top
(05:51):
frustrations about bringinginternational talent to America?
Melissa Harms (05:54):
I think when you look at the corporation side,
they're frustrated because theycan't get the workers they need.
And our immigration system forvisas is incredibly archaic.
The most common visa we have isthe H one B visa, and I think most
people have heard of that now.
There's been a lot of press about that.
But the H one B status.
It's only for people who have a bachelor'sdegree in a certain field, and the
(06:17):
job requires a degree in that field.
And over the years, without any sortof legislation or rulemaking U-S-C-I-S
has narrowed that definition to beonly, it only really benefits those
who have, let's say, a chemistrydegree and they're gonna be a chemist.
But in the business world in fact, theycame out with a proposed rule a few years
(06:37):
ago that says we don't consider businessdegrees to be specialized degrees.
So if you're looking at,you come out and you are.
You started a company and you're A CEO,they'll say you don't qualify for H
one B because you could have a numberof different degrees to be A CEO.
You could have a degree in English,you could have a degree in marketing,
you could have a degree in finance.
So they're really looking for thehard science, the analytical fields
(06:58):
to be eligible for H one B status.
And that's all we've got.
Unless you're from another country,we have very specific narrow visa
categories for those from Australia,Mexico Chile, Singapore, and Canada.
But other than that's it.
We can bring people over ifthey've been employed abroad.
But we don't have a catchall forjust the very smart person who's
(07:20):
starting a company, quite frankly.
So there's a giant hole inthe Visa framework for, what
we see in today's economy.
And the, we started out talking about how.
Immigration is late 1946, andit really is, we haven't had a
substantive change to our businessimmigration framework in many years.
Dave Conley (07:39):
H one B visas our research is saying it's about, it's only about 85,000
people a year that that qualify for that.
And what would you say to folks that,that are thinking that somehow this
depresses American jobs like Microsoftjust fired 9,000 people, and yet they're
(08:02):
also asking for a record number of visas.
Now, personally, I don't thinkthose two things are like that.
The pie isn't, finite like that.
But what do you say to people who thinkthat this is something that actually hurts
Americans rather than helps everyone?
Melissa Harms (08:19):
I think if you believe in capitalism, the
markets correct themselves.
So what I will tell you is that anHOV Visa can cost as much as $3,400.
In just filing fees.
And on top of that, if you wannahave an answer in three weeks, as
opposed to six months, you have topay $2,500 more to the government.
So you're looking at 6,000 ingovernment fees before you pay my fees.
(08:43):
So companies don't wanna dothis unless they have to.
So I have a lot of companies, andI'm on retainer with companies.
That's how we generally work.
They'll say, when we need aVisa, we're gonna call you.
And I have a lot of 'em thatsay, you know what, we're not
gonna do any H one B sponsorship.
We're just, we're, wefeel like we're just.
Gonna save those costsand hire American workers.
And I say, great.
And then I get a call the next weekwe've had this job open for, 10 months.
(09:04):
Nobody's applied, or the peoplewho have applied have just been way
underqualified and we need a visa.
So the cost of doing these H one visasis a, impediment to, no company's
gonna do this unless they have to.
So you will see them laying offworkers, but they're generally
not gonna be laying off workers incategories that are hard to fill.
So they are still hiring H one B workerswhen they can't find anybody else.
(09:28):
And I think if you look at the waythe markets set, the demand is out
there and immigration fluctuates.
We have a lottery each year for peoplewho are getting their first H one B,
and we do this whole archaic thingwhere we sent in these petitions to
U-S-C-I-S to be counted in the lottery.
And the petitions were,three inches thick.
They cost me about $50 to FedEx.
(09:49):
And we had to send in the entireprepared petition, and then they would
run a lottery and send back the onesthat they didn't choose at the expense.
And I always looked at this of $10 perapplication they sent back in postage.
So this archaic way, finally,we had an electronic system only
within the last five years where wenow do this electronically first.
(10:10):
We've been looking at thenumbers and what we've seen as.
As the economy gets worse and there'snot as many jobs open, there are less
applications for H one B numbers.
So we see it fluctuate basedon the way the economy runs.
We used to, under Clinton, thenumbers went up, so now we have,
you're right about 85,000 total.
Under Clinton, it was raisedto about a hundred and let's
(10:33):
see, 195,000 at one point.
And back then we didn't use them all.
We never used them all.
Now, in today's economy this past yearwe had, let's see, 358,000 registrations.
And they selected of that,they selected 120,000.
Now, this was down from lastyear when we had 480,000.
So you see the economy works inseeing how many of these are selected.
(10:55):
And I do have clients that willput somebody in a lottery and
then they're chosen on the lotteryand they're really excited.
And then the companywill say, you know what?
Hard times we don't have that job anymore.
We're not actually gonna file thepetition for that selected person.
We do see that happen when thecompany feels like there's not a
need for that position anymore.
Dave Conley (11:12):
In previous episodes I've talked about how medieval this system is.
Can you walk me through sort of theexperience of, a student and they wanna
stay in the United States and I know,in our research there's something like
the OTP and you get to stay here for alittle bit, but then you like take your
chances versus somebody who's overseaswants to come to the United States.
(11:36):
Or is there like yet another category?
What are the different things that peopletry in order to either hire in the United
States or stay in the United States?
Melissa Harms (11:45):
So what we see is there's really three, again, I'll use buckets
that these H one B applicants come from.
Majority.
I would say, and this is totallyoff the top of my head with my
cases, 80% of those are studentswho graduated from a US school.
So these are people who come inon a student visa, an F1 when
they graduate from a US school.
They get one year of OPT as you said.
(12:08):
If they have a degree in a STEM field,which is designated by their school,
they can get an additional two years.
So they get three years total to work in aSTEM field without the employer having to
spend money sponsor them, sponsoring them.
So during that time I tell employers,if you wanna keep this person, you
should put them in the lottery thefirst year that they are eligible.
(12:31):
Because about every year, and thisis a really rough estimate, you have
about a 25% chance of selection.
So with three years, you're notguaranteed to get an H one B number.
So you need to try every year.
I have one individual who hasbeen through the lottery nine
times, never been selected.
So there are those outliers.
So that's the, these are thestudents and those are, that's
(12:53):
probably the biggest bucket of who'sapplying for these H one B visas.
The people outside the US are, thoseare not, they're not that many of
them because they need to have theexposure to the US employers to have
the US employer feel like, Hey, Ireally wanna bring this person over.
I really wanna spend this, five to$10,000 trying to hire this person.
There's not a lot like that.
(13:13):
We might have some who came here for alittle while, worked for us, employer went
back, and now they're trying to come back.
That might be one of or somebodywho works for an overseas
subsidiary and wants to come here.
Then the third bucket is peoplewho are here in some their
status who wanna move to H one B.
A lot of times that will be somebodywho's here on what we call an L one, and
that's an intercompany transferee whereyou work abroad for the company for a
(13:35):
year, and then you can come here on an L.
The L is great in many ways,but the H is better for
long-term green card processing.
So some of those people are switching.
We had people switching out of the tn,which was for Mexicans and Canadians
because of fear of what Trump wasgonna do with the TN visa category.
So there's always, we always havefear-based switching h fours, sometimes
(13:57):
it's a dependent of an HMBV holder.
They might say, I got a job andnow I wanna move into H one B.
'cause most of the time they cannot work.
They get to a certain point in theGreen card process for the spouse
that they can get a work permit.
But most of the time these spousesof these H one B workers cannot work.
And that's difficult, especially in theBay Area, to have a single income family.
So they're trying toget their own H one B.
(14:18):
So those are the types of people whowould be applying for this H one B status.
Jerremy Newsome (14:23):
So
Melissa Harms (14:24):
It's a lot.
I know.
I get too technical so feelfree to tell me to dumb it down.
Dave Conley (14:28):
This is perfect because, in order to really, we have to define these
problems, and if people's eyes are glazingover right now, that's a good thing.
Because should be simple.
That's the first thing.
I don't know, in one of our episodes,it's like somebody took the worst of the
tax code, drank themselves into oblivionand said, immigrate to the United States,
Melissa Harms (14:48):
I tell people that clients, especially when I meet with
new companies, I say, you reallyshould not need me, but you do.
Our system is probablythe most complicated and
archaic in the entire world.
And quite frankly, doesn't servethe American population well some
of these policies I look at andwhat was the policy behind this
and who were they trying to help?
Because it really doesn't help.
Another thing that people might notrealize about the H one B system
(15:11):
is that the employers have to saythey're paying the hire of the
prevailing wage and the actual wage.
For that position, in that location.
So the reason they do that is theysay, we wanna protect US workers.
We don't want companies to come in,fire all their US workers and hire
H one B workers and underpay them.
Great intent.
I see where that's going.
But the way it plays out in a lot of mycases, I can't even tell you how many, is
(15:36):
that our prevailing wage is set by the,we use this government database for wages.
And I don't know where theyare getting their data.
They don't even cite it.
But it's incredibly high.
So what happens is somebody will call meand say, I wanna hire a software engineer.
In Silicon Valley, and I'll say, great,the prevailing wage for that is 240,000.
(15:58):
And they say, there's no way I'mgonna pay that person 240,000.
I say that's the prevailing wage.
And so they'll either A, not hirethem, or B, they'll hire them and
pay them like twice as much asthey're paying their US workers.
In effect, it doesn't do what it'ssupposed to do, put it that way.
I think if we had a workable wagedatabase that was actually accurate
it does have a good intent behindit, but it just doesn't work.
Alex (16:22):
The lottery's treating cancer researchers like entry-level
workers—25% odds for everyone.
But that $44 billion we discussed?
Wait till you see where it goes.
Next up (16:32):
the real costs hitting employers and families caught in this broken system.
The people want to know Conley.
(00:03):
What are we talking about today?
Dave Conley (00:05):
In this week's episode of Solving America's Problems, we examine
the outdated structures crippling ourimmigration system, where businesses and
universities invest billions, trainingand educating cutting edge global talent
only to face an immigration system so oldit forces Silicon Valley to mail paper
applications like its 1925, not 2025.
At the heart of these issues arepoliticians unable or unwilling to
(00:26):
change laws in 40 years, companiesdesperately trying to hire Stanford PhD,
curing cancer have the same 25% chanceas anyone else, and your best sales
person from Canada, or entrepreneur fromEurope, starting the next great company.
Have no chance at all.
Our guest, Melissa Harms brings 25years of experience as an attorney on
the front lines of immigration law.
She helps fortune five hundreds,startups, universities, and biotech
(00:50):
labs navigate the broken bureaucracyand inefficient government systems
driving America's innovation overseas.
She's taught immigration courses at CalState and the University of California,
and speaks nationally for the AmericanImmigration Lawyers Association on
navigating visa challenges to retaintop talent and drive economic growth.
And that's this week on solving America'sproblems, paper planes, and brain drain.
(01:11):
America's talent crisiswith Melissa harms.
Jerremy Newsome (01:14):
Every year, America educates the world's brightest minds.
Then we kick them out.
International students pump 44 billioninto our economy, but we hand them
diplomas with deportation notices.
Meanwhile, companies from SiliconValley to Main Street follow every rule,
pay every fee, but still can't fillall the jobs they desperately need.
(01:37):
What's the result?
Cities from Beijing to Berlin are thinkingus for the best talent in the world.
I'm Jerremy Alexander Newsom withmy co-host Dave Conley, and this
is solving America's Problems.
Today we have Melissa Harms 25 years as animmigration attorney on the front lines.
(01:58):
the one CEOs call when the Visasystem threatens their best people
Silicon Valley to University Labs.
She knows exactly where thisthing is broken, and we're
gonna be discussing that.
Melissa, welcome to the show.
Melissa Harms (02:13):
Thanks, Jerremy.
I'm not sure I can sayexactly where it's broken.
It's broken in many places.
I don't have, if I had the recipe tofix this, I'd be making a lot more money
than I am right now, that's for sure.
Jerremy Newsome (02:23):
You at least know all the things that are broken, or
Melissa Harms (02:25):
I can, yes, I can tell you it's broken.
Maybe not how to fix it.
Jerremy Newsome (02:29):
That's okay.
That, the good news is we'regonna have a conversation.
We get to use your ideas and yourthoughts and your beliefs, and
Dave's whimsical concepts of howto change and make adaptations.
That's why we're here.
Lemme throw this at you, 25 yearsMelissa, helping businesses and
universities navigate immigration.
Did you know in law school that you wantedto do employment and immigration law?
Melissa Harms (02:53):
Yes and no.
I did initially start out in employmentlaw really thinking I wanted to
get into employment discrimination.
I've always been interestedin women's issues.
I was a public policy major in collegebut not so much immigration, although I
loved travel and international cultures.
I hadn't really been thought aboutimmigration and quite honestly fell
(03:13):
into it after doing the big firmroute for a little while and realizing
that's not where my heart was.
Really wanting to pursue afield of law where I felt like
I could enact social change.
While also using my analyticalskills and law degree.
And so that's how I sort of happenstanceinto immigration a few years
after graduation from law school.
Jerremy Newsome (03:33):
And just as like a brief.
I dunno, maybe this might be more for me.
the heck is immigration law?
What are you doing?
Are you changing the policies?
Are you working with individuals?
Melissa Harms (03:44):
That's a really good question.
We have a fair share of policy.
Like we like to call them policywalks that are working for the
national, on the national level.
Doing lobbying and telling, comingup with what the fair systems are.
We have a national group called AmericanImmigration Lawyers Association, which
is about 15,000 immigration lawyersnationwide and they're really in
charge of doing a lot of the lobbyingwork disseminating information.
(04:07):
I've been involved withthem on many levels.
Recently working with them on technology.
And we worked with USAS on technologyfor immigration which was great, but
ultimately after the administrationchange led to a whole lot of nothing,
which is a theme that we mightcontinue throughout our conversation.
But in the actual practice of immigrationlaw, we really have two different sectors.
(04:28):
We have those who help with deportationremoval, so those are the people who
are on the front lines of the border whoare working with undocumented workers.
Trying to figure out some sort ofrelief for them once they're in that
pod of being unauthorized coming hereillegally or falling out of status.
And then we also have the other potof immigration lawyers, which are
the business immigration attorneys.
(04:49):
And that's where I fall.
We're the ones that work with corporationsand companies and universities to
obtain visas for people who are herenow legally, or maybe people who are
outside the US who we wanna bring over.
But we generally don't touch thepool of, that's almost like a whole
nother field of law working inthe deportation aspect of things.
Jerremy Newsome (05:09):
But still really fascinating because after, don't
know, probably 12 conversations onthis topic, it would also seem that
I think the majority of listeners,the majority of participants, they
feel like the biggest immigration,at least the largest challenge.
And from a number standpoint,it is, like you mentioned, the
undocumented, the asylum seekers.
(05:31):
But what you're mentioning is havethe individuals who are working,
who wanna work in a differentcountry, global corporations.
And you would think that would be arelatively straightforward process.
what it sounds like isthat's not the case at all.
So when CEO or university presidentscome to you, what's their top
(05:51):
frustrations about bringinginternational talent to America?
Melissa Harms (05:54):
I think when you look at the corporation side,
they're frustrated because theycan't get the workers they need.
And our immigration system forvisas is incredibly archaic.
The most common visa we have isthe H one B visa, and I think most
people have heard of that now.
There's been a lot of press about that.
But the H one B status.
It's only for people who have a bachelor'sdegree in a certain field, and the
(06:17):
job requires a degree in that field.
And over the years, without any sortof legislation or rulemaking U-S-C-I-S
has narrowed that definition to beonly, it only really benefits those
who have, let's say, a chemistrydegree and they're gonna be a chemist.
But in the business world in fact, theycame out with a proposed rule a few years
(06:37):
ago that says we don't consider businessdegrees to be specialized degrees.
So if you're looking at,you come out and you are.
You started a company and you're A CEO,they'll say you don't qualify for H
one B because you could have a numberof different degrees to be A CEO.
You could have a degree in English,you could have a degree in marketing,
you could have a degree in finance.
So they're really looking for thehard science, the analytical fields
(06:58):
to be eligible for H one B status.
And that's all we've got.
Unless you're from another country,we have very specific narrow visa
categories for those from Australia,Mexico Chile, Singapore, and Canada.
But other than that's it.
We can bring people over ifthey've been employed abroad.
But we don't have a catchall forjust the very smart person who's
(07:20):
starting a company, quite frankly.
So there's a giant hole inthe Visa framework for, what
we see in today's economy.
And the, we started out talking about how.
Immigration is late 1946, andit really is, we haven't had a
substantive change to our businessimmigration framework in many years.
Dave Conley (07:39):
H one B visas our research is saying it's about, it's only about 85,000
people a year that that qualify for that.
And what would you say to folks that,that are thinking that somehow this
depresses American jobs like Microsoftjust fired 9,000 people, and yet they're
(08:02):
also asking for a record number of visas.
Now, personally, I don't thinkthose two things are like that.
The pie isn't, finite like that.
But what do you say to people who thinkthat this is something that actually hurts
Americans rather than helps everyone?
Melissa Harms (08:19):
I think if you believe in capitalism, the
markets correct themselves.
So what I will tell you is that anHOV Visa can cost as much as $3,400.
In just filing fees.
And on top of that, if you wannahave an answer in three weeks, as
opposed to six months, you have topay $2,500 more to the government.
So you're looking at 6,000 ingovernment fees before you pay my fees.
(08:43):
So companies don't wanna dothis unless they have to.
So I have a lot of companies, andI'm on retainer with companies.
That's how we generally work.
They'll say, when we need aVisa, we're gonna call you.
And I have a lot of 'em thatsay, you know what, we're not
gonna do any H one B sponsorship.
We're just, we're, wefeel like we're just.
Gonna save those costsand hire American workers.
And I say, great.
And then I get a call the next weekwe've had this job open for, 10 months.
(09:04):
Nobody's applied, or the peoplewho have applied have just been way
underqualified and we need a visa.
So the cost of doing these H one visasis a, impediment to, no company's
gonna do this unless they have to.
So you will see them laying offworkers, but they're generally
not gonna be laying off workers incategories that are hard to fill.
So they are still hiring H one B workerswhen they can't find anybody else.
(09:28):
And I think if you look at the waythe markets set, the demand is out
there and immigration fluctuates.
We have a lottery each year for peoplewho are getting their first H one B,
and we do this whole archaic thingwhere we sent in these petitions to
U-S-C-I-S to be counted in the lottery.
And the petitions were,three inches thick.
They cost me about $50 to FedEx.
(09:49):
And we had to send in the entireprepared petition, and then they would
run a lottery and send back the onesthat they didn't choose at the expense.
And I always looked at this of $10 perapplication they sent back in postage.
So this archaic way, finally,we had an electronic system only
within the last five years where wenow do this electronically first.
(10:10):
We've been looking at thenumbers and what we've seen as.
As the economy gets worse and there'snot as many jobs open, there are less
applications for H one B numbers.
So we see it fluctuate basedon the way the economy runs.
We used to, under Clinton, thenumbers went up, so now we have,
you're right about 85,000 total.
Under Clinton, it was raisedto about a hundred and let's
(10:33):
see, 195,000 at one point.
And back then we didn't use them all.
We never used them all.
Now, in today's economy this past yearwe had, let's see, 358,000 registrations.
And they selected of that,they selected 120,000.
Now, this was down from lastyear when we had 480,000.
So you see the economy works inseeing how many of these are selected.
(10:55):
And I do have clients that willput somebody in a lottery and
then they're chosen on the lotteryand they're really excited.
And then the companywill say, you know what?
Hard times we don't have that job anymore.
We're not actually gonna file thepetition for that selected person.
We do see that happen when thecompany feels like there's not a
need for that position anymore.
Dave Conley (11:12):
In previous episodes I've talked about how medieval this system is.
Can you walk me through sort of theexperience of, a student and they wanna
stay in the United States and I know,in our research there's something like
the OTP and you get to stay here for alittle bit, but then you like take your
chances versus somebody who's overseaswants to come to the United States.
(11:36):
Or is there like yet another category?
What are the different things that peopletry in order to either hire in the United
States or stay in the United States?
Melissa Harms (11:45):
So what we see is there's really three, again, I'll use buckets
that these H one B applicants come from.
Majority.
I would say, and this is totallyoff the top of my head with my
cases, 80% of those are studentswho graduated from a US school.
So these are people who come inon a student visa, an F1 when
they graduate from a US school.
They get one year of OPT as you said.
(12:08):
If they have a degree in a STEM field,which is designated by their school,
they can get an additional two years.
So they get three years total to work in aSTEM field without the employer having to
spend money sponsor them, sponsoring them.
So during that time I tell employers,if you wanna keep this person, you
should put them in the lottery thefirst year that they are eligible.
(12:31):
Because about every year, and thisis a really rough estimate, you have
about a 25% chance of selection.
So with three years, you're notguaranteed to get an H one B number.
So you need to try every year.
I have one individual who hasbeen through the lottery nine
times, never been selected.
So there are those outliers.
So that's the, these are thestudents and those are, that's
(12:53):
probably the biggest bucket of who'sapplying for these H one B visas.
The people outside the US are, thoseare not, they're not that many of
them because they need to have theexposure to the US employers to have
the US employer feel like, Hey, Ireally wanna bring this person over.
I really wanna spend this, five to$10,000 trying to hire this person.
There's not a lot like that.
(13:13):
We might have some who came here for alittle while, worked for us, employer went
back, and now they're trying to come back.
That might be one of or somebodywho works for an overseas
subsidiary and wants to come here.
Then the third bucket is peoplewho are here in some their
status who wanna move to H one B.
A lot of times that will be somebodywho's here on what we call an L one, and
that's an intercompany transferee whereyou work abroad for the company for a
(13:35):
year, and then you can come here on an L.
The L is great in many ways,but the H is better for
long-term green card processing.
So some of those people are switching.
We had people switching out of the tn,which was for Mexicans and Canadians
because of fear of what Trump wasgonna do with the TN visa category.
So there's always, we always havefear-based switching h fours, sometimes
(13:57):
it's a dependent of an HMBV holder.
They might say, I got a job andnow I wanna move into H one B.
'cause most of the time they cannot work.
They get to a certain point in theGreen card process for the spouse
that they can get a work permit.
But most of the time these spousesof these H one B workers cannot work.
And that's difficult, especially in theBay Area, to have a single income family.
So they're trying toget their own H one B.
(14:18):
So those are the types of people whowould be applying for this H one B status.
Jerremy Newsome (14:23):
So
Melissa Harms (14:24):
It's a lot.
I know.
I get too technical so feelfree to tell me to dumb it down.
Dave Conley (14:28):
This is perfect because, in order to really, we have to define these
problems, and if people's eyes are glazingover right now, that's a good thing.
Because should be simple.
That's the first thing.
I don't know, in one of our episodes,it's like somebody took the worst of the
tax code, drank themselves into oblivionand said, immigrate to the United States,
Melissa Harms (14:48):
I tell people that clients, especially when I meet with
new companies, I say, you reallyshould not need me, but you do.
Our system is probablythe most complicated and
archaic in the entire world.
And quite frankly, doesn't servethe American population well some
of these policies I look at andwhat was the policy behind this
and who were they trying to help?
Because it really doesn't help.
Another thing that people might notrealize about the H one B system
(15:11):
is that the employers have to saythey're paying the hire of the
prevailing wage and the actual wage.
For that position, in that location.
So the reason they do that is theysay, we wanna protect US workers.
We don't want companies to come in,fire all their US workers and hire
H one B workers and underpay them.
Great intent.
I see where that's going.
But the way it plays out in a lot of mycases, I can't even tell you how many, is
(15:36):
that our prevailing wage is set by the,we use this government database for wages.
And I don't know where theyare getting their data.
They don't even cite it.
But it's incredibly high.
So what happens is somebody will call meand say, I wanna hire a software engineer.
In Silicon Valley, and I'll say, great,the prevailing wage for that is 240,000.
(15:58):
And they say, there's no way I'mgonna pay that person 240,000.
I say that's the prevailing wage.
And so they'll either A, not hirethem, or B, they'll hire them and
pay them like twice as much asthey're paying their US workers.
In effect, it doesn't do what it'ssupposed to do, put it that way.
I think if we had a workable wagedatabase that was actually accurate
it does have a good intent behindit, but it just doesn't work.
Alex (16:22):
The lottery's treating cancer researchers like entry-level
workers—25% odds for everyone.
But that $44 billion we discussed?
Wait till you see where it goes.
Next up (16:32):
the real costs hitting employers and families caught in this broken system.
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