December 17, 2025 • 24 mins
60% of people released from prison are back inside three years, burning $80 billion a year. Quan Wynn did 22 years for murder, walked out, went to Harvard, and now runs entrepreneurship bootcamps behind bars through Defy Ventures. He proves the system can flip lifers into CEOs—if we let it. Jerremy Alexander Newsome and Dave Conley go deep on why most “reform” is theater and what actually drops recidivism hard.
Timestamps:
- (00:00) Incarceration Nation – the stats that should piss you off
- (01:49) Remote setup + introducing Quan Wynn
- (02:11) Coaching female inmates on business plans
- (02:56) Why entrepreneurship works when nothing else does
- (04:23) The real roadblocks to prison reform
- (05:04) Scaling programs that actually move the needle
- (06:02) Success stories that sound fake but aren’t
- (07:25) Quan’s 22-year murder sentence → Harvard turnaround
- (15:00) Why America still cages people instead of rehabbing them
- (16:37) Life after release is harder than the sentence
- (21:21) What you can do
Connect:
- Quan Wynn / Defy Ventures – https://www.defyventures.org
📢 Solving America’s Problems Podcast – Real Solutions For Real Issues
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex (00:00):
Jerremy and Dave sit down with Quan Wynn—a man who served 22
years for murder and walked out aHarvard-trained reformer running
Defy Ventures in Southern California.
Right after coaching women insideChino prison, one inmate asked Dave
what he’d tell friends about his day.
He said, “Just went to anotherentrepreneur pitch day—same as
(00:21):
I’ve done at the best startupsand top business schools.”
She stopped him cold—“You’renot gonna say it was in prison?”
Dave told her no.
Because the pitches he heard insidewere as sharp as any he’s coached
in Silicon Valley or New York.
[surprised] Quan spent over twodecades locked up—yet he’s the one
(00:42):
proving the system can be flipped…
What did he figure out that theother 2.3 MILLION inside still
haven’t been given a shot at?
Jerremy Newsome (00:52):
Dave, what are we addressing and solving today?
My man?
Dave (00:59):
In this week's episode of Solving America's Problems, we confront a
system that costs 80 billion a year.
Yet 60% of released prisonersreturn within three years a
cycle that demands change.
We're joined today by Qu Wynn,who turned 22 years in prison
into a mission for second chances.
As executive director of DefiVentures, Southern California, a
(01:19):
certified gang expert, and a HarvardExecutive Education graduate.
Kwan leads programs inentrepreneurship and personal growth.
His memoir, Sparrow and theRazor Wire inspires thousands
with power of internal change.
And that's this week on solvingAmerica's problems from punishment
to possibility With K Juan Win.
Jerremy (01:39):
Okay.
On our way to an amazing Vietnameserestaurant, we just left the
Women's Correctional Facilityhere in Chino, California.
Dave, we are in a vanwith a very special guest.
This is our first
Dave (01:57):
remote recording.
Jerremy (01:58):
Our first remote recording, which we were trying out and we
were very excited about quality.
Kwan is joining
Quan tell us what experience weall just embarked on together.
Quan (02:11):
We were there for a
business coaching day through thefive ventures program There was.
It's the halfway point of orseven month training program where
it's career readiness, personaldevelopment, and entrepreneurship
Jerremy (02:26):
and it was really remarkable.
Dave, one of the favorite things thatyou told me, a quick little story,
fill me in when you were talking to theone individual lady, the EIT, asking
about the resumes and the thing thatstood out in particular about how many
times you've done this in the past.
Dave (02:41):
She asked me like,
what my
day.
What was, like, what would I tell peopleout, when I left this an amazing event.
And I would, I said,actually, it's boring.
Maybe even a little funny.
I'd say I went to an entrepreneur event.
We did pitch coaching, we didresumes, we some business models
(03:01):
around ideas and that's about it.
And she stopped for a She said, you'renot gonna say it was in a prison.
And I said, no, I've donethis all over the world.
I've done this at.
The highest level at the bestbusiness schools in the world.
The biggest startups the everywhere.
(03:22):
I've done this hundreds and hundredsof times in New York and DC and
LA and San Francisco and overseas.
And this is exactly what.
We do, and you all are entrepreneurs.
I, this is e exactly it.
(03:43):
And she stopped really?
And I'm like, really?
Like I, I didn't hear any thatthe fact that it's in a prison was
irrelevant and Right.
That's one of the hardest thingsabout entrepreneurship is.
Is just having somebody listen.
And I think it was extra special inthis environment because you're seeing
(04:06):
And once you get that a acrossthat that it's the same that you're
not being treated any different.
You're not being, like thisisn't, this isn't dumbed down.
This isn't, this is this is business.
It.
It really clicked and it elevated the
Jerremy (04:23):
Right.
Because in this series we are workingon focusing on and solving the
problem and the challenge that facesAmerica, which is prison reform.
And one of the main, one of those maintopics is what goes on inside of a
prison and the different aspects of that.
And that's why we have Quan here, becauseQuan happens to be a specialist in that
(04:45):
he has studied it, he's been a part of it.
He has not only been reformed, buthas had reformed so many other people.
Quan is this something that can be donein any prison or any jail in America?
This
educational Environment where peopleare pouring into their future best
self?
Quan (05:04):
Yes.
I think that's the great thing aboutour program is it's very scalable.
It's a 2000 page curriculum.
We're in the process actuallyof piloting a digital
format of.
The, our program onto the,
porting it onto the tablets thatare inside California's prisons.
'cause every person incarceratedhas the access to the tablets.
(05:25):
So that's what we are in theprocess of piloting right now.
But even if they don't haveaccess to tablets, it's a
curriculum that we put on books.
And then we have a model where it's afacilitator goes into the prison and
teaches the curriculum, and it hasthe coaching day at the halfway point.
And it culminates in a businesspitch competition that's judged
(05:46):
Shark Tank style by volunteers
Jerremy (05:49):
Shark Tank style.
That's cool.
Yes.
That's really cool.
What does the winner receive?
Quan (05:54):
The top five winners receive IOU.
First place gets 500, secondplace gets 400, 300, 200, 100.
So they receive those when they come home.
Yep.
One of our EITs
I remember in San Diego, he had pitched
a honeybee business.
He had this huge fascination withhoneybees, and I remember he came
(06:14):
down home during the pandemic, his.
$500 that he won for first place, helpedhim buy his first colony and he sent
us some honey during the pandemic.
That was the best honey I've ever tasted.
I had the honeycombs in it andeverything with the colonies, he was
able to make several other colonies.
And the last I heard from him, he was,he said he was coming up with some new
(06:35):
stuff, with some certain wax and all this.
Wow.
So he everything.
Yeah, he did everything honeybees.
Jerremy (06:41):
That's really cool.
So why isn't.
This program or programs likeit in every prison across the
country?
Quan (06:48):
I think the main thing is the, there's the narrative of lock
someone up and throw away the key.
Or also another narrative of what doesit really mean for rehabilitation?
Or perhaps the narrative or
the belief.
Do we believe in second chances?
Do we believe that once acriminal, always a criminal?
So I think there's.
There's different narratives that preventus from even thinking of the possibilities
(07:11):
of why if given opportunities, givenoptions during incarceration, there
could be ways for people to stepinto better versions of themselves.
Dave (07:24):
And Quan, can you,
You're such a model of this.
Can you give us just abit of your background
and your story and.
Like what
this journey has been
like for you?
Quan (07:34):
Yeah.
High level I'm formerlyincarcerated myself.
I've served 22 years of my lifein correctional facilities,
and I ultimately went.
To prison with a 15 year to life sentence.
For secondary murder.
I shot and killed a man by thename of Minu in Los Angeles.
(07:54):
At the time I told myself it wasa gang related crime, that things
happened because I was in the gang,that it was during my prison journey
when I started to think aboutlike, how did I end up this way?
Am I meant to die in here?
Because to give you context.
Although it was a 15 year to lifesentence, the state of California
(08:14):
had not paroled one singlelifetime prisoner since 1977.
And it wasn't until a woman
that was incarcerated that fought it allthe way to Supreme Court, her name was
Sandra Lawrence, and that was when thefirst ruling came out in, I think 2007.
So 30 years later, they had 30 yearsof data where she was able to argue
(08:36):
what's the difference between alife without possibility sentence.
And a life sentence becauseCalifornia was not paring anybody.
And that kind of opened the MOGdoor where then the courts came
back and said, okay, there has tobe some type of nexus to the crime.
And they gave this list what theycalled the factors of suitability
as never been arrested, had highereducation never been arrested, had
(09:02):
higher education didn't get in trouble.
No.
No violent offenses.
And then they had on the other sideof the list factors of un suitability
where it says multiple arrestswrite-ups during incarceration,
violence during incarceration.
And I fell on that other list.
So I go, this does, thesefactors don't apply to me.
Or 98% of us in here anyway.
(09:23):
But then men started to litigateit and the door started opening
and I think governor Brown in
2012 released one of the first.
Or 2013 released one of the firstprisoners after they were found suitable.
But then the governorcontinued to take the dates.
I'm sorry he didn't release 'em.
The governor continuedto take people's dates.
'cause it's almost a political thing.
(09:44):
'cause it became where if thegovernor signs off, then that
makes him look soft on crime.
So that under politics the governordoesn't wanna look soft in crime, so
he has to continue to pull the date.
Yeah.
Send it back.
And the guy goes back to theparole board or the woman
goes back to the parole board.
And this continues to happenuntil Sandra Lawrence was ordered.
Leased from the courts and then thatstarted to happen to other men and women.
(10:07):
And that kind I, that was thebackdrop for when right around I
I at the time was on a different set,was always been a bookworm, so I was
just read a whole bunch of books.
I love entrepreneurship while Iwas incarcerated and I have this
tendency of going down rabbittrails when I'm reading a book.
Like I go now, acknowledgements,see who wrote it.
(10:28):
And then who influenced them?
And then I read up on that.
So right around that time, I rememberI became very fascinated on books
around stories around the saints and inparticular stories about saints that had
failed in their lives, but had gone on tocreate these legacies and these orders.
And it just became thisother rabbit trail.
And I started reading books onspirituality, personal development,
(10:51):
mindfulness, and then all of this, I wouldhave to say, became like a perfect storm
in my head where I. One day he was just ona prison yard and just said like, why do
I have to view like prison as punishment?
Why can't this be a place whereI can begin to remake myself even
if I'm supposed to die in here?
And of course, the answer from theuniverse come back and said, yeah you can.
(11:12):
And I wanna say that'swhere I, my awakening began.
Like I remember I was on theyard that day and the sun was
barely coming over the hills.
I could feel the warmth onmy skin, on the blades of.
Grass, I could see theindividual drops a dew.
And up above me in the razorwire I heard a sparrow chirping.
And I say the sparrows have probablybeen chirping my whole prison term.
(11:33):
I did not hear it, but thatday I heard it, and from that
day is where my journey began.
And I saw men that perhaps not, some noteven awakened some of them much further
along, but then suddenly I was like,oh, these are human beings that I'm here
to connect with and here to learn from.
And.
Began to
(11:53):
change the fabric ofmy existence in prison.
One of the first things I didwas I checked into therapy 'cause
my father passed away when Iwas 13 years old from leukemia.
I never was able to grieveproperly, grieve him,
and that's the first thing I did.
I checked into therapy,
began the grief and loss process,but then also became fascinated with
(12:16):
Elizabeth k Ross's model on grief andloss and, then being the rat the bookworm.
I read a bunch of hers writings and readother things, and I realized there's
a lot of men that were incarceratedthat could not process their grief.
There's a lot of mourning, whetherthat's losing their loved ones or
being separated or even somethingseemingly normal in prison as being
(12:41):
transferred from one prison to another.
But these are, that means theseare friendships and relationships
that you're getting removedfrom, and you have to form new.
Ones and they're unable to process it.
So I saw this need of, hey,how do we give a space for men
to begin the grieving process?
And I submitted a syllabus to theprison psychologist, and we started
(13:02):
the prisons first ever grief and lossgroup, which I remember being in that
first group and seeing men be able toshed tears or be able to just speak
about like a some loss in their life.
And, that's where I think I would'vesay, like that's where I felt fulfilled
and I felt there was meaning in my life.
(13:23):
And that's where it just began thishunger for, and thirst for wait, what
else can I do to make impact in the world?
And then being the bookworm once again,I get books on group psychodynamics,
childhood development, and westart building other curriculum.
And the next thing I know I'm ableto inform and help build curriculum
inside the prisons for per.
(13:43):
Like for self-help and getinvolved with a bunch of them.
And then, yeah, it just began thiswhole process where I realized here I am
in some forgotten corner of the world,but I am able to do God's work and
I'm doing impactful work and nobodyknows about it, but that's okay.
'cause I know the impactI'm able to make while
(14:04):
I'm in here.
And that's just how I lived forthe last three, four years of my
existence inside Solano State Prison.
and then I went in front of the parole.
It and I just share with them like
my own understanding, selfunderstanding of why I, I
joined a gang, of why I thought
it was okay to shoot and
kill somebody.
Why I thought it was okay tostill inflict acts of violence
(14:25):
on others while incarcerated.
And they said that they felt Iwas no longer a danger and they
paroled me and I got out in 2015.
Jerremy (14:37):
Amazing.
That's incredible, man.
Thank you for sharing that story.
And I heard you say the word impact.
A few times.
So in this short interview,and thank you for
doing this on the road, we'lldefinitely do another one as well.
What impact do you feel this
country could make in prison reform?
If you had to
choose one thing that would create thatMO the most impact, what would it be?
Quan (15:00):
These are our community members.
These are our fellowhuman beings coming home.
So if we invest in them while theyhave been removed from society, I
think the question we have to askourselves, what are we doing with people
that have made poor choices in life?
We're removing them from ourcommunities, but now what?
(15:20):
What are we gonna do?
Are we just gonna lock 'em up orwe're not going to, we're going.
To deprive them of any type of wayto come, become better versions
of themselves, or should we let'em know Hey, we're removing you
from this community, but theseare the things that we want to do.
Let's address what made you godown this path in the first place?
What, let's address, whatmade you think it's okay to
(15:43):
break our social norms?
Or and what are the issues around it?
And get some type of, helpthem develop some type of self
understanding and some type of.
Of personal responsibility for theirchoices and everything that's happened.
And
yeah then suddenly there's people insidethat yes, they did, made terrible choices.
They may have done terrible
(16:04):
things, but inherently if weinvest in them and we tell 'em that
yes, we Can believe in them, thatI'd say the potential for them
coming home and doing work, impactfulwork in the world is pretty exponential.
I see it in our man.
And women that are graduates.
Like for them it's all about how do I giveback, how now I know the harm that I've
(16:26):
caused, how do I give back to society?
So you would be able to have people that
I think would really come outand continue to help change the
fabric of the world out here.
Jerremy (16:37):
Why do you feel recidivism is so high?
I.
Dave (16:40):
Can I tag onto that?
Is anything working
about the prison system?
Is there.
Like why is this recidivism so high?
Is anything working?
Quan (16:50):
I would have to say
no.
There's, our nonprofit is inexistence because there is
no budget for rehabilitativeprograms in California's prisons.
So that's why we're in existence.
There's no,
the prison system wasthe California system.
It's built to.
Punished and it's built toput people, lock people away.
(17:13):
And while they're away, ifthere's no resources to help
them become better people, ifthere's no resources to help them
develop some type ofunderstanding in themselves.
There's no resources for themto not only come to some type of
self-acceptance and self-forgiveness,but then come to a place where they can
(17:36):
believe in a brighter future forthemselves because of believe,
like there's a way for themeven after they're incarcerated.
Because think of allthe systemic barriers.
Yes.
Now, once they come home, theyhave they're considered a convicted
felon once they come home.
Then when they apply for certain jobs.
They'll be barred fromgetting certain licenses.
They're when they're trying to rentout a home, the background check comes
(17:59):
back and then they get turned down.
So
there's all these systemicbarriers that continue to hold them
accountable for something they'vealready served their time for.
And then there's, so there'snot too many options for them.
And then if they're unable to beemployed and if they're unable to make
a living and they're unable to raise afamily, then unfortunately some of them
(18:19):
will have to turn back to what theyonly know unless of we had given them
opportunities while they're incarcerated.
Hey, let's dream of a different worldin which you could have existed or a
different you that could have lived inthe world that you don't see right now.
Jerremy (18:35):
Do you mind sharing with our listeners one of those moments
for you when you filled out a
form and
you had to check that boxand what kind of happened?
Quan (18:43):
Yeah.
I remember during the Pandemic,'cause after I came home I launched
my first company six months aftera commercial cleaning company.
And during the pandemic I hadabout seven employees, no eight
employees at the time, and.
Alright, then the countrygot shut down overnight.
70% of our contracts were canceledbecause all the country was on
(19:06):
lockdown, so they didn't need
Janitorial services atcommercial buildings.
And so then I filed for relief underthe paycheck protection program.
But when I got to question f. Five
came up that question again.
Have you ever been convicted of a felony?
And Right when I clicked, yes.
The platform grayed out andit wouldn't let me continue
(19:26):
because I had answered yes.
And I remember, I was like I feltsorry for myself about 45 minutes.
And I was like, this is unfair.
Like why this is great that we havethis program this is to give relief
to small business owners and I'm atax paying citizen and why am right?
Me and like my team being punished forsomething I did like over 25 years ago.
(19:51):
But so
I don't know how
CBS Money Watch found out and.
CNN and they started calling me.
And the next thing I know,the A CLU had contacted me.
And then the Five Ventures dida class action lawsuit with
the A CLU and we sued the SBA.
So we successfully changed that languagein it where I think they had to show.
(20:11):
Before there was no nexus tooh, anybody that's convicted
of a crime did not qualify.
But then they changed it to only ifsomeone in that was convicted of financial
crimes couldn't apply for the paycheck
protection program.
Jerremy (20:24):
Wow.
Thanks for doing that.
Thanks for not only.
Facing an opposition, but finding away to push through it because that's
really, that's what makes America
great.
Same energy, the same drive,the same focus of, just because
I have an opposition doesn'tmean that has to be the only
answer.
And to your point, ifthe question is there,
(20:47):
maybe we can eitherphrase it or realize that
if someone has faced some.
A
massive challenge and opposition intheir life, but they didn't let that
stop them and they did rehabilitate,and they did come back into this
country and they're, they are a citizen.
They are a tax paying citizen.
They're someone who's really puttingin their time and energy, having
employees and creating employmentand helping other individuals.
(21:11):
Why couldn't they alsoget assistance as well?
So really remarkable story, man.
Thank you for sharing.
Dave.
Any final questions for our manKwan here while we have him?
Dave (21:21):
Would people who haven't been incarcerated be surprised about
inside the system?
Quan (21:29):
God.
That's where can I go with that?
They would be surprised inside thesystem, but we're talking about
the human element, that there is
a lot, of.
Are good souls in there
that they would be surprisedthat there are not many
opportunities for peoplethat are incarcerated.
They would be surprised that there'snot much investment like there.
(21:54):
It's, it feels almost
shortsighted because these arepeople that are coming home to
our communities and there's.
No, there's no way to make, continue tomake our community safer if we're not
investing in them while they're inside.
Jerremy (22:09):
Yeah.
Again, back to your point and a wordyou've used a few times as well invest.
And it doesn't have to be just financial.
A lot of people probably do think that theword investing is only tied to financial
aspects, but in real, in reality, we caninvest into relationships, we can invest
into humans, we can invest into education,we can invest into education reform.
(22:29):
We can invest and spend money or time or
energy into the rehabilitationand the betterment of just humans.
'cause that's really what I'm hearingyou say as I'm hearing you say that.
Yeah.
Just because someone is incarcerated,they do not lose their humanity.
They simply did something that probablypotentially other people have also done
(22:52):
that they simply had not got caught for.
And that's something that Iexperienced today in in our
exercise or empathy exercise wherethat there were definitely a few
instances and a few questions thatwere posed that simply show that.
A lot of times it very well couldbe for maybe less serious offenses.
(23:14):
The luck of the draw of who andwho does and does not get caught,
who does and does not seek and findthemselves in a punishable event.
And for someone to face dehumanizing
and unfortunate judgment from other peoplerelated to how they have once interacted
(23:35):
in the past with something I think isa. extremely un fortuitous and something
that we can at least create and bringlight to that awareness and light to
that just the recognition that it existsand that we can do something about it.
And I'm very happy toknow that you are doing
something about it and weare doing something about
it.
Just even having this discussion andbringing it to people's awareness
Dave (23:57):
I, also heard.
That the $80 billion that the United
States spends on lockingpeople up every year, that's a
hundred percent wasted money.
It does not work.
Jerremy (24:11):
Yeah.
I would probably agree with you on that.
I think that's there's somethingthat's really dramatically, drastically
wrong here, and I think the morethat we go into this, Dave, and the
more that we have incredible guests.
Yeah, remarkable questions and reallypeer and get more insight and also
collaborate and collect more evidence.
We'll also come up with more solutionsto this problem that's facing this
(24:33):
country\ that we are gonna solvetogether on solving America's problems.
Jerremy and Dave sit down with Quan Wynn—a man who served 22
years for murder and walked out aHarvard-trained reformer running
Defy Ventures in Southern California.
Right after coaching women insideChino prison, one inmate asked Dave
what he’d tell friends about his day.
He said, “Just went to anotherentrepreneur pitch day—same as
(00:21):
I’ve done at the best startupsand top business schools.”
She stopped him cold—“You’renot gonna say it was in prison?”
Dave told her no.
Because the pitches he heard insidewere as sharp as any he’s coached
in Silicon Valley or New York.
[surprised] Quan spent over twodecades locked up—yet he’s the one
(00:42):
proving the system can be flipped…
What did he figure out that theother 2.3 MILLION inside still
haven’t been given a shot at?
Jerremy Newsome (00:52):
Dave, what are we addressing and solving today?
My man?
Dave (00:59):
In this week's episode of Solving America's Problems, we confront a
system that costs 80 billion a year.
Yet 60% of released prisonersreturn within three years a
cycle that demands change.
We're joined today by Qu Wynn,who turned 22 years in prison
into a mission for second chances.
As executive director of DefiVentures, Southern California, a
(01:19):
certified gang expert, and a HarvardExecutive Education graduate.
Kwan leads programs inentrepreneurship and personal growth.
His memoir, Sparrow and theRazor Wire inspires thousands
with power of internal change.
And that's this week on solvingAmerica's problems from punishment
to possibility With K Juan Win.
Jerremy (01:39):
Okay.
On our way to an amazing Vietnameserestaurant, we just left the
Women's Correctional Facilityhere in Chino, California.
Dave, we are in a vanwith a very special guest.
This is our first
Dave (01:57):
remote recording.
Jerremy (01:58):
Our first remote recording, which we were trying out and we
were very excited about quality.
Kwan is joining
Quan tell us what experience weall just embarked on together.
Quan (02:11):
We were there for a
business coaching day through thefive ventures program There was.
It's the halfway point of orseven month training program where
it's career readiness, personaldevelopment, and entrepreneurship
Jerremy (02:26):
and it was really remarkable.
Dave, one of the favorite things thatyou told me, a quick little story,
fill me in when you were talking to theone individual lady, the EIT, asking
about the resumes and the thing thatstood out in particular about how many
times you've done this in the past.
Dave (02:41):
She asked me like,
what my
day.
What was, like, what would I tell peopleout, when I left this an amazing event.
And I would, I said,actually, it's boring.
Maybe even a little funny.
I'd say I went to an entrepreneur event.
We did pitch coaching, we didresumes, we some business models
(03:01):
around ideas and that's about it.
And she stopped for a She said, you'renot gonna say it was in a prison.
And I said, no, I've donethis all over the world.
I've done this at.
The highest level at the bestbusiness schools in the world.
The biggest startups the everywhere.
(03:22):
I've done this hundreds and hundredsof times in New York and DC and
LA and San Francisco and overseas.
And this is exactly what.
We do, and you all are entrepreneurs.
I, this is e exactly it.
(03:43):
And she stopped really?
And I'm like, really?
Like I, I didn't hear any thatthe fact that it's in a prison was
irrelevant and Right.
That's one of the hardest thingsabout entrepreneurship is.
Is just having somebody listen.
And I think it was extra special inthis environment because you're seeing
(04:06):
And once you get that a acrossthat that it's the same that you're
not being treated any different.
You're not being, like thisisn't, this isn't dumbed down.
This isn't, this is this is business.
It.
It really clicked and it elevated the
Jerremy (04:23):
Right.
Because in this series we are workingon focusing on and solving the
problem and the challenge that facesAmerica, which is prison reform.
And one of the main, one of those maintopics is what goes on inside of a
prison and the different aspects of that.
And that's why we have Quan here, becauseQuan happens to be a specialist in that
(04:45):
he has studied it, he's been a part of it.
He has not only been reformed, buthas had reformed so many other people.
Quan is this something that can be donein any prison or any jail in America?
This
educational Environment where peopleare pouring into their future best
self?
Quan (05:04):
Yes.
I think that's the great thing aboutour program is it's very scalable.
It's a 2000 page curriculum.
We're in the process actuallyof piloting a digital
format of.
The, our program onto the,
porting it onto the tablets thatare inside California's prisons.
'cause every person incarceratedhas the access to the tablets.
(05:25):
So that's what we are in theprocess of piloting right now.
But even if they don't haveaccess to tablets, it's a
curriculum that we put on books.
And then we have a model where it's afacilitator goes into the prison and
teaches the curriculum, and it hasthe coaching day at the halfway point.
And it culminates in a businesspitch competition that's judged
(05:46):
Shark Tank style by volunteers
Jerremy (05:49):
Shark Tank style.
That's cool.
Yes.
That's really cool.
What does the winner receive?
Quan (05:54):
The top five winners receive IOU.
First place gets 500, secondplace gets 400, 300, 200, 100.
So they receive those when they come home.
Yep.
One of our EITs
I remember in San Diego, he had pitched
a honeybee business.
He had this huge fascination withhoneybees, and I remember he came
(06:14):
down home during the pandemic, his.
$500 that he won for first place, helpedhim buy his first colony and he sent
us some honey during the pandemic.
That was the best honey I've ever tasted.
I had the honeycombs in it andeverything with the colonies, he was
able to make several other colonies.
And the last I heard from him, he was,he said he was coming up with some new
(06:35):
stuff, with some certain wax and all this.
Wow.
So he everything.
Yeah, he did everything honeybees.
Jerremy (06:41):
That's really cool.
So why isn't.
This program or programs likeit in every prison across the
country?
Quan (06:48):
I think the main thing is the, there's the narrative of lock
someone up and throw away the key.
Or also another narrative of what doesit really mean for rehabilitation?
Or perhaps the narrative or
the belief.
Do we believe in second chances?
Do we believe that once acriminal, always a criminal?
So I think there's.
There's different narratives that preventus from even thinking of the possibilities
(07:11):
of why if given opportunities, givenoptions during incarceration, there
could be ways for people to stepinto better versions of themselves.
Dave (07:24):
And Quan, can you,
You're such a model of this.
Can you give us just abit of your background
and your story and.
Like what
this journey has been
like for you?
Quan (07:34):
Yeah.
High level I'm formerlyincarcerated myself.
I've served 22 years of my lifein correctional facilities,
and I ultimately went.
To prison with a 15 year to life sentence.
For secondary murder.
I shot and killed a man by thename of Minu in Los Angeles.
(07:54):
At the time I told myself it wasa gang related crime, that things
happened because I was in the gang,that it was during my prison journey
when I started to think aboutlike, how did I end up this way?
Am I meant to die in here?
Because to give you context.
Although it was a 15 year to lifesentence, the state of California
(08:14):
had not paroled one singlelifetime prisoner since 1977.
And it wasn't until a woman
that was incarcerated that fought it allthe way to Supreme Court, her name was
Sandra Lawrence, and that was when thefirst ruling came out in, I think 2007.
So 30 years later, they had 30 yearsof data where she was able to argue
(08:36):
what's the difference between alife without possibility sentence.
And a life sentence becauseCalifornia was not paring anybody.
And that kind of opened the MOGdoor where then the courts came
back and said, okay, there has tobe some type of nexus to the crime.
And they gave this list what theycalled the factors of suitability
as never been arrested, had highereducation never been arrested, had
(09:02):
higher education didn't get in trouble.
No.
No violent offenses.
And then they had on the other sideof the list factors of un suitability
where it says multiple arrestswrite-ups during incarceration,
violence during incarceration.
And I fell on that other list.
So I go, this does, thesefactors don't apply to me.
Or 98% of us in here anyway.
(09:23):
But then men started to litigateit and the door started opening
and I think governor Brown in
2012 released one of the first.
Or 2013 released one of the firstprisoners after they were found suitable.
But then the governorcontinued to take the dates.
I'm sorry he didn't release 'em.
The governor continuedto take people's dates.
'cause it's almost a political thing.
(09:44):
'cause it became where if thegovernor signs off, then that
makes him look soft on crime.
So that under politics the governordoesn't wanna look soft in crime, so
he has to continue to pull the date.
Yeah.
Send it back.
And the guy goes back to theparole board or the woman
goes back to the parole board.
And this continues to happenuntil Sandra Lawrence was ordered.
Leased from the courts and then thatstarted to happen to other men and women.
(10:07):
And that kind I, that was thebackdrop for when right around I
I at the time was on a different set,was always been a bookworm, so I was
just read a whole bunch of books.
I love entrepreneurship while Iwas incarcerated and I have this
tendency of going down rabbittrails when I'm reading a book.
Like I go now, acknowledgements,see who wrote it.
(10:28):
And then who influenced them?
And then I read up on that.
So right around that time, I rememberI became very fascinated on books
around stories around the saints and inparticular stories about saints that had
failed in their lives, but had gone on tocreate these legacies and these orders.
And it just became thisother rabbit trail.
And I started reading books onspirituality, personal development,
(10:51):
mindfulness, and then all of this, I wouldhave to say, became like a perfect storm
in my head where I. One day he was just ona prison yard and just said like, why do
I have to view like prison as punishment?
Why can't this be a place whereI can begin to remake myself even
if I'm supposed to die in here?
And of course, the answer from theuniverse come back and said, yeah you can.
(11:12):
And I wanna say that'swhere I, my awakening began.
Like I remember I was on theyard that day and the sun was
barely coming over the hills.
I could feel the warmth onmy skin, on the blades of.
Grass, I could see theindividual drops a dew.
And up above me in the razorwire I heard a sparrow chirping.
And I say the sparrows have probablybeen chirping my whole prison term.
(11:33):
I did not hear it, but thatday I heard it, and from that
day is where my journey began.
And I saw men that perhaps not, some noteven awakened some of them much further
along, but then suddenly I was like,oh, these are human beings that I'm here
to connect with and here to learn from.
And.
Began to
(11:53):
change the fabric ofmy existence in prison.
One of the first things I didwas I checked into therapy 'cause
my father passed away when Iwas 13 years old from leukemia.
I never was able to grieveproperly, grieve him,
and that's the first thing I did.
I checked into therapy,
began the grief and loss process,but then also became fascinated with
(12:16):
Elizabeth k Ross's model on grief andloss and, then being the rat the bookworm.
I read a bunch of hers writings and readother things, and I realized there's
a lot of men that were incarceratedthat could not process their grief.
There's a lot of mourning, whetherthat's losing their loved ones or
being separated or even somethingseemingly normal in prison as being
(12:41):
transferred from one prison to another.
But these are, that means theseare friendships and relationships
that you're getting removedfrom, and you have to form new.
Ones and they're unable to process it.
So I saw this need of, hey,how do we give a space for men
to begin the grieving process?
And I submitted a syllabus to theprison psychologist, and we started
(13:02):
the prisons first ever grief and lossgroup, which I remember being in that
first group and seeing men be able toshed tears or be able to just speak
about like a some loss in their life.
And, that's where I think I would'vesay, like that's where I felt fulfilled
and I felt there was meaning in my life.
(13:23):
And that's where it just began thishunger for, and thirst for wait, what
else can I do to make impact in the world?
And then being the bookworm once again,I get books on group psychodynamics,
childhood development, and westart building other curriculum.
And the next thing I know I'm ableto inform and help build curriculum
inside the prisons for per.
(13:43):
Like for self-help and getinvolved with a bunch of them.
And then, yeah, it just began thiswhole process where I realized here I am
in some forgotten corner of the world,but I am able to do God's work and
I'm doing impactful work and nobodyknows about it, but that's okay.
'cause I know the impactI'm able to make while
(14:04):
I'm in here.
And that's just how I lived forthe last three, four years of my
existence inside Solano State Prison.
and then I went in front of the parole.
It and I just share with them like
my own understanding, selfunderstanding of why I, I
joined a gang, of why I thought
it was okay to shoot and
kill somebody.
Why I thought it was okay tostill inflict acts of violence
(14:25):
on others while incarcerated.
And they said that they felt Iwas no longer a danger and they
paroled me and I got out in 2015.
Jerremy (14:37):
Amazing.
That's incredible, man.
Thank you for sharing that story.
And I heard you say the word impact.
A few times.
So in this short interview,and thank you for
doing this on the road, we'lldefinitely do another one as well.
What impact do you feel this
country could make in prison reform?
If you had to
choose one thing that would create thatMO the most impact, what would it be?
Quan (15:00):
These are our community members.
These are our fellowhuman beings coming home.
So if we invest in them while theyhave been removed from society, I
think the question we have to askourselves, what are we doing with people
that have made poor choices in life?
We're removing them from ourcommunities, but now what?
(15:20):
What are we gonna do?
Are we just gonna lock 'em up orwe're not going to, we're going.
To deprive them of any type of wayto come, become better versions
of themselves, or should we let'em know Hey, we're removing you
from this community, but theseare the things that we want to do.
Let's address what made you godown this path in the first place?
What, let's address, whatmade you think it's okay to
(15:43):
break our social norms?
Or and what are the issues around it?
And get some type of, helpthem develop some type of self
understanding and some type of.
Of personal responsibility for theirchoices and everything that's happened.
And
yeah then suddenly there's people insidethat yes, they did, made terrible choices.
They may have done terrible
(16:04):
things, but inherently if weinvest in them and we tell 'em that
yes, we Can believe in them, thatI'd say the potential for them
coming home and doing work, impactfulwork in the world is pretty exponential.
I see it in our man.
And women that are graduates.
Like for them it's all about how do I giveback, how now I know the harm that I've
(16:26):
caused, how do I give back to society?
So you would be able to have people that
I think would really come outand continue to help change the
fabric of the world out here.
Jerremy (16:37):
Why do you feel recidivism is so high?
I.
Dave (16:40):
Can I tag onto that?
Is anything working
about the prison system?
Is there.
Like why is this recidivism so high?
Is anything working?
Quan (16:50):
I would have to say
no.
There's, our nonprofit is inexistence because there is
no budget for rehabilitativeprograms in California's prisons.
So that's why we're in existence.
There's no,
the prison system wasthe California system.
It's built to.
Punished and it's built toput people, lock people away.
(17:13):
And while they're away, ifthere's no resources to help
them become better people, ifthere's no resources to help them
develop some type ofunderstanding in themselves.
There's no resources for themto not only come to some type of
self-acceptance and self-forgiveness,but then come to a place where they can
(17:36):
believe in a brighter future forthemselves because of believe,
like there's a way for themeven after they're incarcerated.
Because think of allthe systemic barriers.
Yes.
Now, once they come home, theyhave they're considered a convicted
felon once they come home.
Then when they apply for certain jobs.
They'll be barred fromgetting certain licenses.
They're when they're trying to rentout a home, the background check comes
(17:59):
back and then they get turned down.
So
there's all these systemicbarriers that continue to hold them
accountable for something they'vealready served their time for.
And then there's, so there'snot too many options for them.
And then if they're unable to beemployed and if they're unable to make
a living and they're unable to raise afamily, then unfortunately some of them
(18:19):
will have to turn back to what theyonly know unless of we had given them
opportunities while they're incarcerated.
Hey, let's dream of a different worldin which you could have existed or a
different you that could have lived inthe world that you don't see right now.
Jerremy (18:35):
Do you mind sharing with our listeners one of those moments
for you when you filled out a
form and
you had to check that boxand what kind of happened?
Quan (18:43):
Yeah.
I remember during the Pandemic,'cause after I came home I launched
my first company six months aftera commercial cleaning company.
And during the pandemic I hadabout seven employees, no eight
employees at the time, and.
Alright, then the countrygot shut down overnight.
70% of our contracts were canceledbecause all the country was on
(19:06):
lockdown, so they didn't need
Janitorial services atcommercial buildings.
And so then I filed for relief underthe paycheck protection program.
But when I got to question f. Five
came up that question again.
Have you ever been convicted of a felony?
And Right when I clicked, yes.
The platform grayed out andit wouldn't let me continue
(19:26):
because I had answered yes.
And I remember, I was like I feltsorry for myself about 45 minutes.
And I was like, this is unfair.
Like why this is great that we havethis program this is to give relief
to small business owners and I'm atax paying citizen and why am right?
Me and like my team being punished forsomething I did like over 25 years ago.
(19:51):
But so
I don't know how
CBS Money Watch found out and.
CNN and they started calling me.
And the next thing I know,the A CLU had contacted me.
And then the Five Ventures dida class action lawsuit with
the A CLU and we sued the SBA.
So we successfully changed that languagein it where I think they had to show.
(20:11):
Before there was no nexus tooh, anybody that's convicted
of a crime did not qualify.
But then they changed it to only ifsomeone in that was convicted of financial
crimes couldn't apply for the paycheck
protection program.
Jerremy (20:24):
Wow.
Thanks for doing that.
Thanks for not only.
Facing an opposition, but finding away to push through it because that's
really, that's what makes America
great.
Same energy, the same drive,the same focus of, just because
I have an opposition doesn'tmean that has to be the only
answer.
And to your point, ifthe question is there,
(20:47):
maybe we can eitherphrase it or realize that
if someone has faced some.
A
massive challenge and opposition intheir life, but they didn't let that
stop them and they did rehabilitate,and they did come back into this
country and they're, they are a citizen.
They are a tax paying citizen.
They're someone who's really puttingin their time and energy, having
employees and creating employmentand helping other individuals.
(21:11):
Why couldn't they alsoget assistance as well?
So really remarkable story, man.
Thank you for sharing.
Dave.
Any final questions for our manKwan here while we have him?
Dave (21:21):
Would people who haven't been incarcerated be surprised about
inside the system?
Quan (21:29):
God.
That's where can I go with that?
They would be surprised inside thesystem, but we're talking about
the human element, that there is
a lot, of.
Are good souls in there
that they would be surprisedthat there are not many
opportunities for peoplethat are incarcerated.
They would be surprised that there'snot much investment like there.
(21:54):
It's, it feels almost
shortsighted because these arepeople that are coming home to
our communities and there's.
No, there's no way to make, continue tomake our community safer if we're not
investing in them while they're inside.
Jerremy (22:09):
Yeah.
Again, back to your point and a wordyou've used a few times as well invest.
And it doesn't have to be just financial.
A lot of people probably do think that theword investing is only tied to financial
aspects, but in real, in reality, we caninvest into relationships, we can invest
into humans, we can invest into education,we can invest into education reform.
(22:29):
We can invest and spend money or time or
energy into the rehabilitationand the betterment of just humans.
'cause that's really what I'm hearingyou say as I'm hearing you say that.
Yeah.
Just because someone is incarcerated,they do not lose their humanity.
They simply did something that probablypotentially other people have also done
(22:52):
that they simply had not got caught for.
And that's something that Iexperienced today in in our
exercise or empathy exercise wherethat there were definitely a few
instances and a few questions thatwere posed that simply show that.
A lot of times it very well couldbe for maybe less serious offenses.
(23:14):
The luck of the draw of who andwho does and does not get caught,
who does and does not seek and findthemselves in a punishable event.
And for someone to face dehumanizing
and unfortunate judgment from other peoplerelated to how they have once interacted
(23:35):
in the past with something I think isa. extremely un fortuitous and something
that we can at least create and bringlight to that awareness and light to
that just the recognition that it existsand that we can do something about it.
And I'm very happy toknow that you are doing
something about it and weare doing something about
it.
Just even having this discussion andbringing it to people's awareness
Dave (23:57):
I, also heard.
That the $80 billion that the United
States spends on lockingpeople up every year, that's a
hundred percent wasted money.
It does not work.
Jerremy (24:11):
Yeah.
I would probably agree with you on that.
I think that's there's somethingthat's really dramatically, drastically
wrong here, and I think the morethat we go into this, Dave, and the
more that we have incredible guests.
Yeah, remarkable questions and reallypeer and get more insight and also
collaborate and collect more evidence.
We'll also come up with more solutionsto this problem that's facing this
(24:33):
country\ that we are gonna solvetogether on solving America's problems.
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