August 5, 2025 • 16 mins
The hidden costs of America's immigration system go far beyond government fees. Melissa Harms reveals how prevailing wage requirements force companies to pay H-1B workers exorbitant salaries with the intent to protect US workers. Moreover, foreign workers become trapped in "indentured servitude" for decades, unable to change jobs or leave the country. From Hong Kong labs replacing American research to families separated by 12-year green card waits, this episode exposes the human cost of bureaucratic incompetence.
Timestamps:
- (00:00) Employer Challenges and Costs: The True Price Tag
- (04:49) Penalties and Legal Risks: When Following Rules Isn't Enough
- (08:43) The Green Card Process: 12-Year Waits for Indian Nationals
- (13:22) Fee Increases and Funding Issues: Where Does the Money Go?
📢 Solving America’s Problems Podcast – Real Solutions For Real Issues
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex (00:00):
Picking up from the visa system's wild ride, today Melissa breaks down the
steep employer costs—like that companyforced to open a Hong Kong lab—and the
human side, with kids fearing deportation.
That's the real price tagon our broken policies.
Jerremy Newsome (00:15):
And so you also teach HR professionals about immigration.
What are the common misconceptionsthey hold about, the process or
any individuals that might reallyhurt the ability to hire talent?
Melissa Harms (00:28):
This kind of comes back to you shouldn't need me, but you do.
One of the things I tell themis, before you hire anybody.
We have certain questions youcan ask without violating any
discrimination laws about whetheror not the person needs sponsorship.
So before you hire somebody, come tome and I have them give me the resume,
the job description, and the salary.
(00:49):
We also have a short questionnaire.
We ask anybody who says they needsponsorship to fill out so I can make
sure there's a visa that works becausethere's a lot of times where they
wanna hire somebody and say, I'm sorry.
There's just nothing wecan do for that person.
So that's the first thing Itell HR people is just talk to
me before you extend an offer.
And that, and it's also comes toeducating them on what can be done
(01:10):
for people and what the costs are.
A lot of times they don'trealize how much this costs.
And I find myself in many occasions,talking them out of hiring somebody
because the costs are so high, they'renot gonna be able to keep them for long.
The chances are low that theircase is gonna get approved.
I think just having an open dialoguewith an immigration attorney is
probably the first thing they can learn.
Dave Conley (01:31):
And so everybody pays, right?
So the worker is in this place ofuncertainty for sometimes years.
The businesses have to pay all these feesand they're stuck in this uncertainty.
Am I gonna have this person?
Am I not?
this is, none of this couldactually help businesses, right?
There's no upside to this.
Is there?
Melissa Harms (01:50):
no.
There really isn't.
And we have people whoaren't selected the lottery.
These students, some ofthese are PhDs from Stanford.
I had a situation with one of mybiotech clients several years ago where
the individual just didn't get the h.
She had been here in F1 after her PhD,so she had to move back to, I think they
moved her to Hong Kong where they had anoffice, opened a lab there for her, and
(02:12):
then hired all the lab workers in HongKong that they would've hired in the
US if she could run her lab in the us.
But because she could not get adegree or could not get an H one B,
we couldn't, she couldn't work here.
So those are some of the things, whatwe're seeing now with the current
administration, there is somethingcalled an Extraordinary Ability
visa that we use for a lot of thesescientists and highly trained workers.
(02:33):
And we're seeing U-S-C-I-S crackdown on those and say, this
person isn't extraordinary, or.
This work is not the national interest.
Under Biden there was a sort ofstreamlined approach to this, what
we call a national interest waiverwhich is a green card application
for people in the STEM fields.
And basically if you could prove thatyour work was the national interest and
you had a PhD in the STEM field, it wasan expedited route to this green card.
(02:59):
I filed one for somebody who has a PhDin chemical engineering and he's worked
at a biotech company for many years.
He has whole departments reportingto him and they just said he
wasn't extraordinary enough.
So in the last 12 months, we'veseen this national interest waiver
applications go down the tubes as well.
I think the Biden administrationhad the interest of promoting the
(03:19):
economy and promoting innovationand entrepreneurship in mind.
I don't know what the currentadministration has in mind, honestly.
Jerremy Newsome (03:27):
I've heard people say that before.
Melissa Harms (03:28):
Yeah.
That was about as diplomaticas I could put it, right?
Jerremy Newsome (03:31):
That was nice.
I like that diplomacy.
So in regards to what you kinda mentioned,like the different, graduates that
are getting specific degrees, you seesome that are outside of the STEM that
people should or could focus more on
Melissa Harms (03:48):
I think particularly with your entrepreneurs now, some
business schools, and I do work with,a business school here in the Bay Area.
Many of the top tier business schoolshave been able to get their programs
designated as STEM programs with abusiness degree, which is fantastic.
'cause then their graduatesget that three years.
But I'm not sure how long that will last.
I'm always scared to point out thegood things because somebody will
(04:10):
listen to this and shut 'em down.
But, if that changes, I think we havea real hole for entrepreneurs and
we had an international entrepreneurrule that was so complicated and
convoluted that immigration attorneysjust wouldn't even touch it.
But we need something for the peoplewho are building the economy and
our entrepreneurs out there, thatmay not have a STEM degree but
are still, fantastic individualswho are going to contribute jobs.
(04:35):
I think everything should begeared towards job creation.
And there are many visas thathave been but it's not the
way the economy works now.
So we need an economist to come inand say, how can we simulate the
US economy through immigration?
Dave Conley (04:49):
Tell me a little bit about the penalties.
Certainly if you're here undocumented,particularly in areas like
construction or farming or servicelevel jobs, and you're undocumented.
There isn't that big of a penalty.
They keep on doing it.
I happen to live in Florida.
It's one of the few states thatmandate, like E-Verify to hire people.
(05:13):
But when it comes to legal,immigration, people going through
this process, what's the downsideto a business saying, ah, screw it.
We're just going to keep this person here.
We're just gonna keepgoing in this process.
Melissa Harms (05:25):
It's a, that's a complicated question.
There are a number of differenttypes of penalties based on that.
If you had somebody who was an H one Band you knew that their h had expired
and you didn't care, you just hired them.
You have the basic i nine penalties.
But then you have, if there's aknowing violation you can attach
even criminal penalties, not only thecompany, but to the HR representative.
So there are a number of different itdepends on what the degree of malicious.
(05:50):
Intent was as to whatyour penalties could be.
But the simple I nine penaltiesquite frankly are not that high.
I don't have them in front of me, butwe're talking hundreds of thousands
of dollars, which is a drop in thebucket for a lot of these companies.
I think the bigger issue and I thinkyou might be reading these reports
and I'm not like, these are notusually my type of clients 'cause I'm
(06:10):
working with more, people who are.
Doing highly skilled workers and theydon't have a lot of undocumented workers.
But you'll look at these.
I just read an article in New YorkTimes yesterday about a meat processing
plant in, I think it was IL or somewherethat had been rated and lost 70% of
the workforce who was using E-Verify.
So you know this, and in the owner ofthe company has always been Republican.
(06:34):
He voted, he actually voted in2024 for Democrat because of the
potential impact on his workersfor these immigration wa raids.
And he's gonna have to shut downbecause he is lost 70% of his workforce.
So that I think is what has a lotof those type of employers running.
Scared is not so much the penaltiesthey'll face, but if they're rated,
(06:55):
what's gonna happen to their workforcebecause they rely on those workers.
Jerremy Newsome (06:59):
Yeah.
Makes sense.
You're talking about the scale, someof the companies just describe that.
Is there certain companies that are justdemoralized by all of this happening
and that have to have current employershere that just simply cannot go and
find any immigrants to come over?
Melissa Harms (07:16):
Again, these really aren't the clients I'm working for.
But I think if you look in therestaurants and the agricultural
fields, manufacturing, that's whereyou're gonna see the hardest hit.
I'm very close to Napa Valley and I thinkthat, you're gonna see a lot of these
agricultural workers in Napa be affected.
I think the fear is a really big part of
What's happening now.
(07:37):
There are certain companies or certain.
I know wineries people just don'tshow up 'cause they're scared
that ICE is gonna show up there.
There's all sorts of websites thattrack where ICE is and people are
scared to go into those communitieswhere they know ICE is going to be.
And, on a personal level I see thesekids, these high school kids, or I have
high school children, but these kidswho are scared about their parents being
(08:00):
deported, what is that gonna do to me?
That's a whole othersector from what I do.
But I think what, my employers and myclients are facing is how are we gonna
get the talent we need and how do wecontinue to be innovative and develop
the drugs that we wanna develop or,come up with these new technologies
without the best and the brightest.
And America's starting to soundlike a place that doesn't welcome
(08:22):
the best and the brightest.
Dave Conley (08:24):
It's not, it's something I had from a personal.
Somebody in my life was that their visawas through their employer and in a
way, she was trapped with the employer.
Melissa Harms (08:35):
Yes.
Dave Conley (08:36):
So tell me about that.
And what are some of the downsidesto having this employee based
Melissa Harms (08:43):
Yeah.
That's hard, it's almost indenturedservitude because you get hired
by this employer and the lifecycle of a foreign worker.
They're hired maybe as astudent with that OPT and then
they get they H one B lottery.
They work with the employer.
Now they can go work for another employer.
But that new employer has to do the hagain, they don't have to go through the
(09:05):
lottery, but they have to pay all thoseridiculous fees we just talked about.
So that's what they have todo if they leave companies.
Now, the scary part for themis what if they get laid off?
They don't have a job anymore.
They essentially have a 60 daygrace period to find a new job
without having to leave the us.
Which, if you're a senior levelperson, that's just not easily done.
(09:26):
So that's very scary.
And then, the other side of this isthat if they wanna stay here past
that six years, so you get a totalof six years in H one B status.
If you wanna stay here, if you starthaving kids here and you develop
your professional network here.
You have to have the company file agreen card for you and you talk about
archaic, where, I could get into that.
(09:47):
But that's where the companyhas to recruit and prove there's
a shortage of US workers.
And they have all these thingsthey have to do, these recruitment
steps they have to take.
One of which is putting two Sundaynewspaper ads, which if you'll go pick
up a Sunday newspaper, the Chronicleor wherever you are, New York Times
has them, I would say 80% of thosenewspaper help wanted ads are for
(10:10):
the green card process for a foreignnational, because they have to be done.
No, I'm serious because Iknow what they look like.
We have to write 'em a certain wayso I can pick up the newspaper.
I'm like that's a perma.
That's a perma.
That's a perma.
So they have to go out andrecruit for this position.
And then once they go through this.
Really two year process of just gettingthe thing on file or getting it approved.
(10:32):
They have more steps.
They have to wait for a green cardnumber to come up because we have only a
certain number of green cards per year.
Like we have H one Bs per year.
So they're waiting and waitingand the whole time they're
stuck with that employer.
They do get to a certain pointvery far in the process where they
could change employers, but it'syears and years down the line.
So now that they've had this employerfile for them and spend all this
(10:53):
money and get this approved to acertain point, they're still stuck
with that employer and that job.
That job has to remainedsomewhat the same.
You can allow for a little bit of careerprogression, but if you get hired as a.
Analyst and now you'rerunning the whole department.
That's a completely different job and youneed now a whole new recruitment process
and proving shortage and all of that.
(11:13):
So that's where it gets really bad.
And that's where you really talkabout the indenture servitude.
'cause these employees have to stay withthe same employer for so many years.
Dave Conley (11:21):
And she couldn't like at some point in the process, like she
wasn't allowed to leave the UnitedStates for years, and then she needed all
these like invasive like medical tests.
And I'm like, oh, come on.
Is that real?
Melissa Harms (11:33):
yeah.
We have to, they have to do medical exams.
There's a certain period of time wherethey can't leave because of certain
paperwork we're filing if they don'thave an underlying non-immigrant visa.
I find it hilarious that we'vegot, this health and human services
secretary who doesn't want vaccines,but our four nationals have to have
three COVID vaccines and everythingelse under the sun before they
can become a green card holder.
(11:55):
So it's, yeah, it is a very long, veryexpensive process from start to finish.
Just to give you an idea on the, and thisis something that shocks a lot of people
for these employment-based green cards.
So if you're being sponsored byan employer and you don't have a
family member to sponsor you wehave that, I think it's 144,000
per year only for green cards.
(12:16):
And it's broken down by country ofbirth and your preference category.
And so the country of birth was thatwe wanted to have a diverse country.
So we don't want one single countryto, to have all the green cards, right?
So the countries with the highestdemand have the longest waits.
So if you're from China, for example,right now the visa bullets and
that we get every month, if you'refrom China actually India's worse.
(12:40):
So if you're from India you couldbe waiting 12 years for a grain card
If your employer sponsors you.
Yeah.
Jerremy Newsome (12:47):
whoa.
Melissa Harms (12:49):
So it's, it's just a crazy system.
And it also seems very unfair.
'cause you're from India and you wait12 years, but if you were born in
Pakistan, you wait a year and a half.
And that's all based on demand.
That's the whole point.
And there's been a lot of differentproposals in Congress to eliminate
the per country limitations.
None of which have succeeded.
(13:11):
Nothing succeeds in Congress aboutimmigration anymore, but this one has
been one that a lot of people haveadvocated for, to make it more fair.
But yeah it's definitely a broken system.
Jerremy Newsome (13:21):
Just dancing around that for a second.
The latest federal spendingbill had major fee increases.
Do you see any of these rising coststhroughout the system affecting
more Visa business sponsorships?
Melissa Harms (13:32):
Yeah, the Visa fees went up dramatically.
In 2024, there was a new fee increase.
And we have now we have a $600 asylumfee that's added on to every single
case we file 300 if you're from a smallemployer that has less than 26 employees.
That was completely new.
That was supposedly to fundthe asylum program, and this
is just for H one B workers.
(13:53):
And then the fees themselves wentup, I think 70% for an H one B.
So the fees have gone up dramatically.
Like I said, a lot of theseemployers really need these people.
So that Delta was not enough todissuade them just from the filing
fees when you're talking H one Bs.
But, I think the fees justincredibly start to get more and
more unbearable as things progress.
Jerremy Newsome (14:14):
Yeah.
Melissa Harms (14:15):
it's expensive.
Jerremy Newsome (14:16):
Yep.
Dave Conley (14:17):
fees go?
Do they fund what is it, the U-S-C-I-Sor what, or they just go into the ether?
Melissa Harms (14:24):
So the, there's a filing fee that's supposed to just fund the
cost of adjudicating the petition.
U-S-C-A-S is supposedly self-sufficient.
It's supposed to generate its own fees.
Then there's a fee, there's a $500fraud fee, which is what it's called.
And that goes to this FDNSunit, which is fraud detection,
national security, I think.
And they go out actually, andthis is a very active unit.
(14:45):
They go out to employers and willsay, okay, you filed an H one B
petition on behalf of Joe Schmo.
I wanna talk to Joe Schmo andmake sure he's doing what you
said he did in the petition.
And I've had many of my clients havebeen visited by those fraud officers
and that $500 fee funds that department.
We've never had a problem with the fraudofficers because as I'm lucky to have
(15:06):
clients who are actually employing peoplein the capacity that they say they are.
And then there's a $1,500 educationretraining fee that is supposed
to go back into US education.
I've never, really tracked that fundthat's part of the H one B fees.
But that was the intent of thatwas let's educate US workers so
they can do these jobs that we'regetting forward workers to do.
(15:27):
And that's actually one of mypersonal feelings about the whole
process is that we do need to lookat our education system because we're
not churning out the science, theemployees that our employers need.
So there should be a better lookat our education systems and.
I can get on my high horse, Californiaand its schools and how expensive it is
to go to the California universities andhow hard it is to get into a University
(15:51):
of California or even a Cal State School.
They need to look at giving more moneyto education here in the us for sure.
Jerremy Newsome (15:58):
Or at least doing it correctly.
Melissa Harms (16:00):
Yes.
Jerremy Newsome (16:01):
Yeah,
Melissa Harms (16:02):
Yeah.
Jerremy Newsome (16:02):
lot of money.
I mean that, that was whyDave, me and Dave asked that
question once in an episode.
Where's the money going?
Melissa Harms (16:08):
Oh, it is a, it's a, and let's trace it.
I'd love to see where,all those H one B fees go.
Yeah.
Our government is really good aboutbeing transparent in immigration.
Let me tell you that.
Jerremy Newsome (16:18):
Oh, the best we're number one for sure.
Alex (16:22):
From massive fines to families torn apart, this segment hits
hard on immigration's hidden toll.
But solutions are coming—tomorrow,we explore reforms, AI fixes, and
shifting to an abundance mindset.
You won't want to misshow we turn this around.
Picking up from the visa system's wild ride, today Melissa breaks down the
steep employer costs—like that companyforced to open a Hong Kong lab—and the
human side, with kids fearing deportation.
That's the real price tagon our broken policies.
Jerremy Newsome (00:15):
And so you also teach HR professionals about immigration.
What are the common misconceptionsthey hold about, the process or
any individuals that might reallyhurt the ability to hire talent?
Melissa Harms (00:28):
This kind of comes back to you shouldn't need me, but you do.
One of the things I tell themis, before you hire anybody.
We have certain questions youcan ask without violating any
discrimination laws about whetheror not the person needs sponsorship.
So before you hire somebody, come tome and I have them give me the resume,
the job description, and the salary.
(00:49):
We also have a short questionnaire.
We ask anybody who says they needsponsorship to fill out so I can make
sure there's a visa that works becausethere's a lot of times where they
wanna hire somebody and say, I'm sorry.
There's just nothing wecan do for that person.
So that's the first thing Itell HR people is just talk to
me before you extend an offer.
And that, and it's also comes toeducating them on what can be done
(01:10):
for people and what the costs are.
A lot of times they don'trealize how much this costs.
And I find myself in many occasions,talking them out of hiring somebody
because the costs are so high, they'renot gonna be able to keep them for long.
The chances are low that theircase is gonna get approved.
I think just having an open dialoguewith an immigration attorney is
probably the first thing they can learn.
Dave Conley (01:31):
And so everybody pays, right?
So the worker is in this place ofuncertainty for sometimes years.
The businesses have to pay all these feesand they're stuck in this uncertainty.
Am I gonna have this person?
Am I not?
this is, none of this couldactually help businesses, right?
There's no upside to this.
Is there?
Melissa Harms (01:50):
no.
There really isn't.
And we have people whoaren't selected the lottery.
These students, some ofthese are PhDs from Stanford.
I had a situation with one of mybiotech clients several years ago where
the individual just didn't get the h.
She had been here in F1 after her PhD,so she had to move back to, I think they
moved her to Hong Kong where they had anoffice, opened a lab there for her, and
(02:12):
then hired all the lab workers in HongKong that they would've hired in the
US if she could run her lab in the us.
But because she could not get adegree or could not get an H one B,
we couldn't, she couldn't work here.
So those are some of the things, whatwe're seeing now with the current
administration, there is somethingcalled an Extraordinary Ability
visa that we use for a lot of thesescientists and highly trained workers.
(02:33):
And we're seeing U-S-C-I-S crackdown on those and say, this
person isn't extraordinary, or.
This work is not the national interest.
Under Biden there was a sort ofstreamlined approach to this, what
we call a national interest waiverwhich is a green card application
for people in the STEM fields.
And basically if you could prove thatyour work was the national interest and
you had a PhD in the STEM field, it wasan expedited route to this green card.
(02:59):
I filed one for somebody who has a PhDin chemical engineering and he's worked
at a biotech company for many years.
He has whole departments reportingto him and they just said he
wasn't extraordinary enough.
So in the last 12 months, we'veseen this national interest waiver
applications go down the tubes as well.
I think the Biden administrationhad the interest of promoting the
(03:19):
economy and promoting innovationand entrepreneurship in mind.
I don't know what the currentadministration has in mind, honestly.
Jerremy Newsome (03:27):
I've heard people say that before.
Melissa Harms (03:28):
Yeah.
That was about as diplomaticas I could put it, right?
Jerremy Newsome (03:31):
That was nice.
I like that diplomacy.
So in regards to what you kinda mentioned,like the different, graduates that
are getting specific degrees, you seesome that are outside of the STEM that
people should or could focus more on
Melissa Harms (03:48):
I think particularly with your entrepreneurs now, some
business schools, and I do work with,a business school here in the Bay Area.
Many of the top tier business schoolshave been able to get their programs
designated as STEM programs with abusiness degree, which is fantastic.
'cause then their graduatesget that three years.
But I'm not sure how long that will last.
I'm always scared to point out thegood things because somebody will
(04:10):
listen to this and shut 'em down.
But, if that changes, I think we havea real hole for entrepreneurs and
we had an international entrepreneurrule that was so complicated and
convoluted that immigration attorneysjust wouldn't even touch it.
But we need something for the peoplewho are building the economy and
our entrepreneurs out there, thatmay not have a STEM degree but
are still, fantastic individualswho are going to contribute jobs.
(04:35):
I think everything should begeared towards job creation.
And there are many visas thathave been but it's not the
way the economy works now.
So we need an economist to come inand say, how can we simulate the
US economy through immigration?
Dave Conley (04:49):
Tell me a little bit about the penalties.
Certainly if you're here undocumented,particularly in areas like
construction or farming or servicelevel jobs, and you're undocumented.
There isn't that big of a penalty.
They keep on doing it.
I happen to live in Florida.
It's one of the few states thatmandate, like E-Verify to hire people.
(05:13):
But when it comes to legal,immigration, people going through
this process, what's the downsideto a business saying, ah, screw it.
We're just going to keep this person here.
We're just gonna keepgoing in this process.
Melissa Harms (05:25):
It's a, that's a complicated question.
There are a number of differenttypes of penalties based on that.
If you had somebody who was an H one Band you knew that their h had expired
and you didn't care, you just hired them.
You have the basic i nine penalties.
But then you have, if there's aknowing violation you can attach
even criminal penalties, not only thecompany, but to the HR representative.
So there are a number of different itdepends on what the degree of malicious.
(05:50):
Intent was as to whatyour penalties could be.
But the simple I nine penaltiesquite frankly are not that high.
I don't have them in front of me, butwe're talking hundreds of thousands
of dollars, which is a drop in thebucket for a lot of these companies.
I think the bigger issue and I thinkyou might be reading these reports
and I'm not like, these are notusually my type of clients 'cause I'm
(06:10):
working with more, people who are.
Doing highly skilled workers and theydon't have a lot of undocumented workers.
But you'll look at these.
I just read an article in New YorkTimes yesterday about a meat processing
plant in, I think it was IL or somewherethat had been rated and lost 70% of
the workforce who was using E-Verify.
So you know this, and in the owner ofthe company has always been Republican.
(06:34):
He voted, he actually voted in2024 for Democrat because of the
potential impact on his workersfor these immigration wa raids.
And he's gonna have to shut downbecause he is lost 70% of his workforce.
So that I think is what has a lotof those type of employers running.
Scared is not so much the penaltiesthey'll face, but if they're rated,
(06:55):
what's gonna happen to their workforcebecause they rely on those workers.
Jerremy Newsome (06:59):
Yeah.
Makes sense.
You're talking about the scale, someof the companies just describe that.
Is there certain companies that are justdemoralized by all of this happening
and that have to have current employershere that just simply cannot go and
find any immigrants to come over?
Melissa Harms (07:16):
Again, these really aren't the clients I'm working for.
But I think if you look in therestaurants and the agricultural
fields, manufacturing, that's whereyou're gonna see the hardest hit.
I'm very close to Napa Valley and I thinkthat, you're gonna see a lot of these
agricultural workers in Napa be affected.
I think the fear is a really big part of
What's happening now.
(07:37):
There are certain companies or certain.
I know wineries people just don'tshow up 'cause they're scared
that ICE is gonna show up there.
There's all sorts of websites thattrack where ICE is and people are
scared to go into those communitieswhere they know ICE is going to be.
And, on a personal level I see thesekids, these high school kids, or I have
high school children, but these kidswho are scared about their parents being
(08:00):
deported, what is that gonna do to me?
That's a whole othersector from what I do.
But I think what, my employers and myclients are facing is how are we gonna
get the talent we need and how do wecontinue to be innovative and develop
the drugs that we wanna develop or,come up with these new technologies
without the best and the brightest.
And America's starting to soundlike a place that doesn't welcome
(08:22):
the best and the brightest.
Dave Conley (08:24):
It's not, it's something I had from a personal.
Somebody in my life was that their visawas through their employer and in a
way, she was trapped with the employer.
Melissa Harms (08:35):
Yes.
Dave Conley (08:36):
So tell me about that.
And what are some of the downsidesto having this employee based
Melissa Harms (08:43):
Yeah.
That's hard, it's almost indenturedservitude because you get hired
by this employer and the lifecycle of a foreign worker.
They're hired maybe as astudent with that OPT and then
they get they H one B lottery.
They work with the employer.
Now they can go work for another employer.
But that new employer has to do the hagain, they don't have to go through the
(09:05):
lottery, but they have to pay all thoseridiculous fees we just talked about.
So that's what they have todo if they leave companies.
Now, the scary part for themis what if they get laid off?
They don't have a job anymore.
They essentially have a 60 daygrace period to find a new job
without having to leave the us.
Which, if you're a senior levelperson, that's just not easily done.
(09:26):
So that's very scary.
And then, the other side of this isthat if they wanna stay here past
that six years, so you get a totalof six years in H one B status.
If you wanna stay here, if you starthaving kids here and you develop
your professional network here.
You have to have the company file agreen card for you and you talk about
archaic, where, I could get into that.
(09:47):
But that's where the companyhas to recruit and prove there's
a shortage of US workers.
And they have all these thingsthey have to do, these recruitment
steps they have to take.
One of which is putting two Sundaynewspaper ads, which if you'll go pick
up a Sunday newspaper, the Chronicleor wherever you are, New York Times
has them, I would say 80% of thosenewspaper help wanted ads are for
(10:10):
the green card process for a foreignnational, because they have to be done.
No, I'm serious because Iknow what they look like.
We have to write 'em a certain wayso I can pick up the newspaper.
I'm like that's a perma.
That's a perma.
That's a perma.
So they have to go out andrecruit for this position.
And then once they go through this.
Really two year process of just gettingthe thing on file or getting it approved.
(10:32):
They have more steps.
They have to wait for a green cardnumber to come up because we have only a
certain number of green cards per year.
Like we have H one Bs per year.
So they're waiting and waitingand the whole time they're
stuck with that employer.
They do get to a certain pointvery far in the process where they
could change employers, but it'syears and years down the line.
So now that they've had this employerfile for them and spend all this
(10:53):
money and get this approved to acertain point, they're still stuck
with that employer and that job.
That job has to remainedsomewhat the same.
You can allow for a little bit of careerprogression, but if you get hired as a.
Analyst and now you'rerunning the whole department.
That's a completely different job and youneed now a whole new recruitment process
and proving shortage and all of that.
(11:13):
So that's where it gets really bad.
And that's where you really talkabout the indenture servitude.
'cause these employees have to stay withthe same employer for so many years.
Dave Conley (11:21):
And she couldn't like at some point in the process, like she
wasn't allowed to leave the UnitedStates for years, and then she needed all
these like invasive like medical tests.
And I'm like, oh, come on.
Is that real?
Melissa Harms (11:33):
yeah.
We have to, they have to do medical exams.
There's a certain period of time wherethey can't leave because of certain
paperwork we're filing if they don'thave an underlying non-immigrant visa.
I find it hilarious that we'vegot, this health and human services
secretary who doesn't want vaccines,but our four nationals have to have
three COVID vaccines and everythingelse under the sun before they
can become a green card holder.
(11:55):
So it's, yeah, it is a very long, veryexpensive process from start to finish.
Just to give you an idea on the, and thisis something that shocks a lot of people
for these employment-based green cards.
So if you're being sponsored byan employer and you don't have a
family member to sponsor you wehave that, I think it's 144,000
per year only for green cards.
(12:16):
And it's broken down by country ofbirth and your preference category.
And so the country of birth was thatwe wanted to have a diverse country.
So we don't want one single countryto, to have all the green cards, right?
So the countries with the highestdemand have the longest waits.
So if you're from China, for example,right now the visa bullets and
that we get every month, if you'refrom China actually India's worse.
(12:40):
So if you're from India you couldbe waiting 12 years for a grain card
If your employer sponsors you.
Yeah.
Jerremy Newsome (12:47):
whoa.
Melissa Harms (12:49):
So it's, it's just a crazy system.
And it also seems very unfair.
'cause you're from India and you wait12 years, but if you were born in
Pakistan, you wait a year and a half.
And that's all based on demand.
That's the whole point.
And there's been a lot of differentproposals in Congress to eliminate
the per country limitations.
None of which have succeeded.
(13:11):
Nothing succeeds in Congress aboutimmigration anymore, but this one has
been one that a lot of people haveadvocated for, to make it more fair.
But yeah it's definitely a broken system.
Jerremy Newsome (13:21):
Just dancing around that for a second.
The latest federal spendingbill had major fee increases.
Do you see any of these rising coststhroughout the system affecting
more Visa business sponsorships?
Melissa Harms (13:32):
Yeah, the Visa fees went up dramatically.
In 2024, there was a new fee increase.
And we have now we have a $600 asylumfee that's added on to every single
case we file 300 if you're from a smallemployer that has less than 26 employees.
That was completely new.
That was supposedly to fundthe asylum program, and this
is just for H one B workers.
(13:53):
And then the fees themselves wentup, I think 70% for an H one B.
So the fees have gone up dramatically.
Like I said, a lot of theseemployers really need these people.
So that Delta was not enough todissuade them just from the filing
fees when you're talking H one Bs.
But, I think the fees justincredibly start to get more and
more unbearable as things progress.
Jerremy Newsome (14:14):
Yeah.
Melissa Harms (14:15):
it's expensive.
Jerremy Newsome (14:16):
Yep.
Dave Conley (14:17):
fees go?
Do they fund what is it, the U-S-C-I-Sor what, or they just go into the ether?
Melissa Harms (14:24):
So the, there's a filing fee that's supposed to just fund the
cost of adjudicating the petition.
U-S-C-A-S is supposedly self-sufficient.
It's supposed to generate its own fees.
Then there's a fee, there's a $500fraud fee, which is what it's called.
And that goes to this FDNSunit, which is fraud detection,
national security, I think.
And they go out actually, andthis is a very active unit.
(14:45):
They go out to employers and willsay, okay, you filed an H one B
petition on behalf of Joe Schmo.
I wanna talk to Joe Schmo andmake sure he's doing what you
said he did in the petition.
And I've had many of my clients havebeen visited by those fraud officers
and that $500 fee funds that department.
We've never had a problem with the fraudofficers because as I'm lucky to have
(15:06):
clients who are actually employing peoplein the capacity that they say they are.
And then there's a $1,500 educationretraining fee that is supposed
to go back into US education.
I've never, really tracked that fundthat's part of the H one B fees.
But that was the intent of thatwas let's educate US workers so
they can do these jobs that we'regetting forward workers to do.
(15:27):
And that's actually one of mypersonal feelings about the whole
process is that we do need to lookat our education system because we're
not churning out the science, theemployees that our employers need.
So there should be a better lookat our education systems and.
I can get on my high horse, Californiaand its schools and how expensive it is
to go to the California universities andhow hard it is to get into a University
(15:51):
of California or even a Cal State School.
They need to look at giving more moneyto education here in the us for sure.
Jerremy Newsome (15:58):
Or at least doing it correctly.
Melissa Harms (16:00):
Yes.
Jerremy Newsome (16:01):
Yeah,
Melissa Harms (16:02):
Yeah.
Jerremy Newsome (16:02):
lot of money.
I mean that, that was whyDave, me and Dave asked that
question once in an episode.
Where's the money going?
Melissa Harms (16:08):
Oh, it is a, it's a, and let's trace it.
I'd love to see where,all those H one B fees go.
Yeah.
Our government is really good aboutbeing transparent in immigration.
Let me tell you that.
Jerremy Newsome (16:18):
Oh, the best we're number one for sure.
Alex (16:22):
From massive fines to families torn apart, this segment hits
hard on immigration's hidden toll.
But solutions are coming—tomorrow,we explore reforms, AI fixes, and
shifting to an abundance mindset.
You won't want to misshow we turn this around.
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