Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What is first and secondconsciousness in the context of
your relationship?
Find out what that means and whycultivating second consciousness
is so important for the peace inyour family and for your
relationship welcome everyone.
This is healthy relationshipssecrets for parents.
The podcast of a saved yourrelationship from parenthood.
(00:20):
My mission is to help parentshave a thriving relationship and
be great parents at the sametime.
My name is Jason Polk, and I'veworked as exclusively with
couples as a therapist and coachfor over nine years on this
podcast, I share my experienceprofessionally.
And personally.
As well as those of our amazingguests.
Speaking of amazing gueststoday, I'm here with licensed
(00:44):
marriage and family therapist.
Kayla Crane.
Kayla and I are colleagues andcomrades.
In fact, she works in my agency,Colorado relationship recovery.
And is an all star therapist.
How do I know that?
Because people continue to bookwith her and share positive
reviews.
So I'm so excited today becauseKayla and I are trained in the
(01:05):
same school of thought.
She shares a really importantidea.
Of taking space in yourrelationship, literally and in
your head to create peace.
She also shares her experiencewith couples therapy.
And her journey to meditationand why she still meditates
today In this episode find outhow medic.
(01:25):
Meditation also helps cultivatesecond consciousness And what
exactly That means All rightlet's get into
Track 1 (01:33):
so Kayla, how did you
become a relationship counselor
expert?
What motivated you to be in thisfield?
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (01:40):
Yeah,
so I've always had an interest
in, psychotherapy and justtherapy in general.
And I remember always takingthose tests in high school where
they project what you're gonnabe.
And it was always like socialworker or therapist, that kind
of stuff.
And then, when I got older and Idid a lot of my own individual
(02:02):
therapy.
I did a lot and I experiencedsome really incredible therapy
and really not helpful therapy.
And, that motivated me evenmore.
I was like, oh, I think I knowthe right stuff.
to do what was really helpful.
So that motivated me to just doindividual therapy.
(02:24):
And then, in my marriage, I'vehad a lot of experience with
couples therapy and had similarexperiences, right?
Sometimes you have really goodexperiences and sometimes it's
not helpful at all.
One thing that I realized a lotwas that, the skills that we
were taught and the tools, theywere really great in session,
but they weren't like in my.
(02:46):
Perspective or experience, theyweren't super transferrable to
like the outside world.
Like it sounds great in session,but I'm not really gonna do that
like when you're having a fightor something.
During COVID when me and, myhusband was working from home,
we were in this tiny 1100 squarefoot condo with our two kids.
(03:06):
I wasn't working and we werehaving a hard time.
And so I went and startedresearching all the like couples
relationships, books I can find.
And I happened to come acrossfierce Intimacy by Terry Real,
and I read it and I was like.
Wow, this guy gets it.
It's so practical.
(03:27):
I totally it just makes sense tome.
And then, it really motivatedme, like just what I learned in
the book really helped mymarriage.
And, at the same time I hadlooked for RLT therapists near
me, and I had a hard timefinding him.
A quick note, RLT stands forrelational life therapy.
(03:49):
And is the modality that ourmentor, terry real teacher.
Teaches
So
then I really became interested
in it, and then I found you, andthen I, went and, you helped me
get trained in it and I felt sopassionately about how helpful,,
these RLT tools are and itreally stood out to me from
(04:14):
other therapy modalities and Ithink that's what really
encouraged me to start workingwith couples before in my
experience, It never reallyclicked with me.
And so when I found somethingthat did, I was really motivated
and excited and I wanted to beable to kinda share that with
other people and help them.
Track 1 (04:35):
Nice.
Talking about tools in thesession and then getting home is
a lot different and I totallyget that.
How does one actually do thetools outside this session?
And as I'm asking that, I thinkthe simple answer doing them,
but I, if.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (04:55):
Yeah,
I feel like there's one really
important tool above anythingelse, and that's like taking a
timeout, right?
And so if I can get to a timeoutand pull myself back out of the
fight, then I feel like I cancompose myself, put it together
and figure out, okay, how can Ieffectively go forward with
(05:18):
this?
How can we come to some kind ofresolution or whatever we're
gonna do?
How can we get back on track?
And I feel like,, just the idea,even though it seems so simple
of a timeout.
Taking a break, whoever you knowrecognizes that the fight's not
becoming productive.
Just taking that break, settinga time and coming back to it is
really the number one thing youcan do is pull yourself away
(05:42):
from it because in the momentit's really difficult, right?
when you're just so escalated oryour partner's escalated, you
guys are just feeding off eachother and it's not productive.
So I think the key is reallyjust stepping away for a second
and then, gathering yourself,composing yourself, and then
coming back to it, I think isreally the best thing you can
(06:04):
do.
I.
Track 1 (06:05):
Yeah, no, I agree.
A timeout, so important state ofmind.
Where we're triggered, whateveryou wanna call it, we're in
fight, flight, or flee, whateverit is.
When we're in those modes, we donot care about relationship
tools.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (06:21):
Yeah.
Track 1 (06:22):
and, I like, it's such
a, it's a good reminder of
calling the timeout, takingspace and coming back to it.
I showed us this story insession, I don't know actually
30 minutes ago.
But we were talking about shameand grandiosity and I know you
know that term being trained byTerry reel, but talked about
(06:43):
being one up and one down.
And a couple years ago my wifesaid, Jason, I want to get our
daughter in daycare.
And I had a one-up response likewhat the hell?
Why do I have to get her indaycare?
What are you thinking?
I had to take a little bit ofspace and to reflect on what was
going on.
But since I took that space, Iwas able to realize, oh, that
(07:06):
triggered a little bit of shame.
A little bit of shame of, dangJason, you're not making enough
money to have a nanny And then Iwas able to share that.
But that was a quick sort of topof mind story for me, of the
importance of taking time.
So thank you for bringing thatup.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (07:23):
Yeah.
No, and I try to,, reallyemphasize with my clients like.
Doesn't matter who needs thetime.
Don't get caught up in who'sgotta call.
She's the one who isn't calm.
She needs to call.
Whoever sees it's not becomingproductive.
The best thing you can do isjust say, Hey, let's take two
hours or however long.
Very cool i love that
Track 1 (07:45):
Again, feel free to
pass on this, but you mentioned
earlier Covid, it was you, yourhusband, and a condo, two kids.
How did you two survive?
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (07:55):
Yeah.
Like I said, that book wasreally helpful.
The idea of like first andsecond consciousness was really
helpful.
right?
We don't take a step back andsay, this is how I'm gonna
react, but how can I stop myselfand go to that second
consciousness?
That more productive response,that healthier response.
(08:17):
And so it just took a lot ofwork.
I'm a big, meditation fan and Ithink that was really helpful.
It.
What I noticed from meditation,which I found invaluable, was it
just giving me like this,quarter of a second pause before
I reacted, just to think andstep back and, oh, maybe I don't
(08:38):
wanna say, you know, that sassycomment right now, or maybe I
don't wanna do this, maybe Idon't wanna yell at my kids
right now.
I wanna take a step and I wantto think, and then.
If I need to step away, gojournal, go scream into a
pillow, go for a walk, whateverI need to do.
But it gave me that capabilityto be able to just make that
(09:00):
decision before acting right.
Take a little control of mybehaviors versus they were
controlling me before that.
Track 1 (09:09):
Yeah.
That's great.
I know Terry Real says that'sthe foundational work right
there.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (09:14):
Yeah.
Track 1 (09:15):
Creating a little bit
of space between your trigger
and your response.
How did you, was it reading thebook?
How did you, how do you do thatLike I mean
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (09:25):
yeah,
so I was I actually reached out
to a parenting coach and throughall of my through schooling, as
you probably experienced too,they do they encourage self-care
and through my pre previousexperiences in therapy, I got a
lot of encouragement to trymeditation and I used to always
(09:45):
say, I have anxiety in ADHD, I'mnever match dating like you
know, like, nope.
And then I was really,desperate.
I was being, you know, shortwith my kids.
I was just, short with myhusband, I was desperate and I
reached out to a parenting coachand she said to help yourself
with that irritability,meditation's gonna be the most
(10:05):
helpful.
she told me, if I do two tothree minutes a day for 10 days,
I'll see an improvement.
And so I was.
Challenge accepted I'll give it10 days, I'll give it 20 to 30
minutes total.
And I saw improvement.
It just very slowly startedgiving me tiny bit more space
between how I reacted towhatever.
(10:29):
And that.
It was, like I said, it'sinvaluable and then the more I'd
meditate, the longer that spacegot and it just gave me so much
more.
Control.
And like I said, I have anxiety,so that's appealing to me to
have more control So it gave mea little bit more, and I really
it was just mind blowing to me,to have this experience where,
(10:54):
oh, I don't, I had a very angrydad, and he would just explode.
And so it was a wholerealization that.
Oh, this doesn't have to controlme like, has been my experience
growing up and my experience asan adult is just kinda my my
moods would really control me,especially when those moods
(11:16):
were, more negative, like angeror, and, feeling anxious or
whatever.
That would really control me andI noticed that the value In
meditating and giving me alittle bit more of that power.
And so I, I saw improvements inmy relationship with my kids,
with my own self worth.
(11:38):
'cause I wasn't beating myselfup because did something.
Oh, I would've never done thatif I would've thought about it
first so it really helped.
Track 1 (11:46):
Yeah.
That's really cool.
What if someone says, yeah,meditation sounds good, but I
don't have time for it.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (11:52):
Yeah.
That's why I always say startwith two to three minutes and
then it's on you hope.
My hope is that will be enoughmotivation, but I tell people a
lot, make it part of your, makeit when I encourage people to do
two to three minutes a day, Inotice that they'll say, yeah, I
can squeeze that in whenever,and I always say no.
(12:14):
That.
You probably won't, say I'mgonna do it every morning, or
I'm gonna do it every night, andyou make some kind of little
like rule with it.
So before I drink my coffee inthe morning, I meditate, before
I put my pajamas on at night, Imeditate before I brush my teeth
for bed, I meditate, right?
(12:34):
Making some kind of firstmeditate, then this and that can
really help.
Making that like I said, like arule.
Track 1 (12:43):
Yeah, that's great.
So what you're saying, learningthe first and second.
Hey, I'm triggered, but creatinga little bit of space, I don't
have to go with that triggering,I can pause, I can take a deep
breath.
And then supplementing that withmeditation, maybe aiding in that
practice um, reading fierceintimacy that really made it so
(13:06):
you two didn't kill each other
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (13:07):
it
really, it did help., learning
that first and secondconsciousness and then also
learning the meditation andthat, I feel like meditation was
really the tool that gave me theability to get to second
consciousness.
I was more patient with myhusband because I wasn't yelling
at my kids or snapping on themas much Um, that was a positive
(13:30):
impact on their behavior aswell, because I was modeling
healthier behavior to them.
And then that was really helpfulin my relationship with my
husband because there was a lotmore peace.
Throughout the house, right?
And so it wasn't just all chaosall the time, me so stressed out
and just, irritable and snappyand then my kids feeding off of
(13:54):
that, my husband feeding off ofthat after he's been working all
day.
It was just
Track 1 (13:58):
Hmm.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (13:58):
truly
chaos,
Track 1 (14:00):
Yeah.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (14:01):
just
I feel.
Just interrupting it in such away that, just one of those
things, if we can interrupt alittle bit, it can slow the
whole system down,
Track 1 (14:10):
that's great.
Good for you.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (14:12):
Yeah.
It's a work in front.
Track 1 (14:14):
yeah.
No, I totally get it.
Yeah, no, I'm, I am very,partial to meditation as well.
And essentially what you'resaying is the idea of awareness.
In theory can create a littlebit of space.
heard this term, you'reresponding, not reacting less,
reacting more, responding.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_16163 (14:32):
That's
exactly it.
And then you can even get alittle bit of, you know,
recognizing that you might befeeling a little bit triggered
and that feeling can grow, butyou can get a step ahead and
say, I'm noticing this in mybody first.
So you can brace yourself.
You can prepare yourself, removeyourself, whatever you need to
(14:53):
do.
But I feel like it's reallyvaluable information to be able
to recognize what you're feelingbecause at that point it's.
Track 1 (15:02):
yeah.
Yeah.
That's where the timeout comesin.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (15:06):
Yeah.
Track 1 (15:08):
mentioned you.
I know for me, when I startedgetting a little frustrated
agitated, our littlest, our twoyear old picks it up and what
she'll say is, it's okay, daddyAnd I'm like, damn, you're
right.
It is okay.
.And that could be helpful.
And plus she's so darn cute thatyou can't get mad at that.
And it's like, yeah, you'reokay.
(15:29):
You're right.
Fundamentally it's okay.
But I think it's important, ifwe can cultivate, space.
Between again, triggered aresponse and how we wanna show
up.
I think that's really, reallyimportant.
Essentially what you weretalking about first and second
consciousness, cultivating moreof a second consciousness is
(15:49):
important because then we canthink about, okay, how do I
really wanna show up right?
And what I make up and feel freeto.
Be like Sure at times, like yourmotivation, gosh, I don't show
like my dad did at times.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (16:04):
No.
Yeah, you're totally right.
And you know what I tell clientsa lot is that my, understanding
of first and secondconsciousness is I.
A lot of times we respond inanger and I tell clients a lot,
anger is almost always coveringup a more vulnerable emotion.
And so I look at anger isoftentimes that first
(16:25):
consciousness, when people tellme in sessions that they feel
angry, I always ask them toexplain tell me if that anger
could be put into words.
What would it say and almostevery time I can help them get
to the more vulnerable emotion.
well, I'm really mad that, hedidn't call me when he said he
was going to.
(16:45):
That might sound a little bitmore like disappointment or
rejection.
And so that anger will push ourpartner away, right?
And so that's almost that firstconsciousness because we don't
wanna be vulnerable withsomebody who's just hurt us, but
if we can get to that underlyingfeeling that is and creating
(17:07):
that anger, then that part, thatvulnerable feeling, like that
disappointment that'll pull yourpartner in.
Right?
Because a lot of people, theydon't care if their partner's
angry, okay.
But a lot, most of the time youdon't want your partner to be
hurting.
They, you don't want them to besad or, feeling some kind of
pain that will really Kind ofalign you and your partner
(17:30):
against, how can we make you notfeel this pain?
But when it's that anger, it'susually just against each other,
so I feel like that reallyshifts things a lot.
Track 1 (17:41):
totally.
Like being vulnerable almost, ina way, invites collaboration.
If your partner's open.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_16163 (17:47):
Yeah,,
Track 1 (17:48):
do you work with
couples that have kids and maybe
there's been some stress withthat?
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (17:53):
Yeah,
definitely.
A lot of the couples I work withhave kids.
I have my own kids seven andfour, and so I do feel like that
especially when I'm doingconsultations and stuff, that is
something that draws clientstowards me.
If that, if we have children insimilar ages, because it's,
(18:15):
having kids, it's, it does addin completely different dynamic
into relationships, I at leastam often encouraging my couples.
You've gotta make ti more timefor your relationship.
You've gotta, have these datenights and stuff.
And although I can see the valueand the importance in it.
It's not so simple when you havekids, and I'm sensitive to that
(18:37):
because I've had the sameexperience.
It's not so easy to just have ababysitter and to plan date
nights and babysitters are hardto find.
They're expensive.
It, there's a lot of factorsinvolved.
The stress that we have that ourkids put us through it's.
It's so easy to take it out onyour partner because there are
(18:58):
sweet little kids.
Even if they're making usfrustrated, we don't wanna take
it out on them, but, so the nextclosest person is our partner,
and so they're gonna get it, andso just being able to recognize
that and.
Learn how to give voice to that,right?
The frustration and the veryreal challenges that both
(19:21):
parents are facing in differentways, and have them use that to
come together versus thatdriving them apart, which I
think without the tools, that'sthe the natural course of it is
it will drive you apart unlessyou're really, intentional
about.
Staying as a team with that andreally using these challenges to
(19:46):
empathize with each other.
And no one gets what it's liketo be with your, you know,
little seven year old, more thanyour partner.
And no one gets how hard thatcan be as much as your partner,
and so to really turn thataround and use it as a tool to
strengthen your relationship, Ithink can be really valuable.
Track 1 (20:08):
Yeah.
So what I hear you saying is away, you know, a little bit of
emotional intimacy, which ispartners sharing with each
other.
Oh my gosh, this is really hard.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (20:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
and just being able to hear yourpartner rather than, how can I
make it less hard, like.
a lot of times they can't makeit less hard.
It just is.
And and just saying, I get it.
This is really hard and this isa particularly hard season in
our life right now, right?
Track 1 (20:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know for me if I'm, that I mybest.
Or if, I'm not trying to beintentional, I can be really
judgmental.
And it's gosh, why are you doingit that way?
That was dumb, right?
So obviously that is not, superhelpful.
My wife Jess, she does this andI give her a lot of credit for
it.
Sometimes we get into it, andnormally she's the one who
(21:00):
initiates this, but she's like.
Jason, remember we're a team andit's yes.
We're a team.
And we're trying our best andhaving kids is tough.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (21:12):
Yeah,
Transitioning a little bit,Kayla and I both had experiences
of good couples therapy, not sogood couples therapy.
And i asked her how do you knowthe couples therapist is maybe
not a good fit for you
Yeah,
I always encourage people to
first if you can do aConsultation.
That's, the best first step totake.
(21:34):
But I don't know, for me both incouples and individual therapy,
it's just been like, I don't,it's almost like a sense, it
just like it's either clickingor it's not, and I.
I don't know if it's a goodanalogy or not, but almost like
on a date, right?
it's either going well and youcan tell this is good.
I want to keep talking to thisperson, right?
(21:56):
If you're feeling like, oh, Idon't know if I should say this,
then I think that might be asign that maybe it's not the
best fit for you, but when youfeel really I do wanna talk
about this.
I wanna bring this up and maybethey can help me with this.
Like I feel like that's a goodsign that it's going well.
The most important thing is thatyou trust the therapist.
(22:20):
I think that I.
Trumps everything else.
How they were trained, what theydo, anything is if you feel that
connection and that trust withthem and you feel safe enough to
be vulnerable.
'cause if that's not there, thenyou're not gonna get anywhere.
Track 1 (22:36):
Yeah.
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161 (22:36):
remember
one therapist in particular, my
husband doesn't like therapy, soit was already a challenge to
get him to go at all.
And I remember she was reallybeing pushy and I could tell he
was just kinda shutting down.
And then she asked me at onepoint, she said, what do you
think about this?
And I said, I think you'repushing him out away from
therapy.
(22:57):
I think you're, convincing himthat this is the reason that he
doesn't wanna go to therapy hewas like, yeah, you're right.
It was, you can just get thatsense.
When it doesn't feel natural, itdoesn't feel safe, like a safe
space.
I think that's the bestindicator
Kayla.
Thank you so much for your timeand your insights.
(23:17):
This has been so awesome.
I love the topic of first andsecond consciousness and
meditation.
So in addition to going toColorado relationship recovery,
to find you.
How can people find you on yourpersonal website
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (23:31):
you
can go on uh, south denver
therapy.com and that's mywebsite and you can schedule
there.
And so yeah,
Track 1 (23:39):
Yeah.
Cool.
Okay, awesome.
Kayla, I'll let you get back toit.
But thanks again for your timeand your insight
kayla_1_10-30-2023_161636 (23:46):
All
right.
Thanks so much, Jason.
Nice.
As always thank you so much forlistening and if you liked this
give us a good review and sharethis with someone who could
benefit from this informationTake care