53: Let's Talk About Sex, Substance Abuse, and Safety. Interview With Matt Salis

Matt Salis shares his knowledge of sexual health and how it interacts with addiction. 

 We also talk about sexual desire discrepancies and what you can do about them.

 And what’s something that can get you more sex?

The Untoxicated Podcast.

Echos of Recovery & Shout Sobriety

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, what's everyone.
Today.
I have a really cool interview.
Matt St.
Lists, who is a friend.
And I used to work with himyears ago at his and his wife's
bakery.
And, Matt was a really coolboss.
so I know he was really into,uh, us employees being on time.
Never did less.
We were cool.
And we worked together and thenI found out he was sober and he

(00:22):
was becoming sober at the sametime.
I started to be.
And so we met, we had munch andthen we decided to start a
podcast together.
And that podcast was and stillis called the intoxicated
podcast.
I'm going to link in the shownotes.
It's a really good podcast.
He and his wife, Sherry arecurrently releasing episodes

(00:43):
weekly.
And the podcast is aboutaddiction and relationships.
I'm no longer part of thepodcast I bailed.
Um, and then I did buy thisreally good microphone.
Matt kept it as a result of mebaling, but you can tell he's
still using that qualitymicrophone and his sound quality
on the interview as much betterthan mine.

(01:04):
Because the day for theinterview, I left my good one at
home.
Nevertheless.
Today, Matt and I, we talk aboutsubstance abuse, sex building,
back trust.
And then we focus againprimarily on the topic of sex.
And Matt is in the middle of amaster's degree program in
sexual health at the universityof Minnesota.

(01:24):
I mean, shares his knowledge andwisdom with us.
It's a great interview.
Welcome to solving disconnectionand creating connected
relationships for couples andparents.
My name is Jason Polk and I'vebeen a couples therapist for
over 10 years, and I lovehelping couples get along
better.
Now let's hear from Matt, whatis he up to and why does he do

(01:48):
it?

Matt (01:49):
in a master's degree program at the University of
Minnesota in Sexual Health.
Because, think the sexualintimacy, sexual relationship
component, of relationships andrecovery is so, so, so
important.
and here's another area wherewhat we have seen, didn't really

(02:14):
ask the questions on this, sosorry if I'm going No, go with
the sex.
Let's talk about sex.
Um.
So, so, again, there are kind oftwo ways that this works in an
alcoholic relationship.
Uh, what happened in our casewas continued to have sexual
relations, even as I was,drinking abusively, and I

(02:37):
became, just tremendouslyunattractive to my wife because
of the alcohol, there's stillthings that I wouldn't call
Universalisms.
But there are trends that wenotice.
And so, one of those trends isthat the men that we work with
tend to Think attraction has todo with physical appearance and
that ship has long Yeah.

(02:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
married and have kids.
Like if you think that woman isstill with you because you go to
the gym, you're freaking nuts,man.
Um, about creating this safeenvironment.
So when our environment wasn'tsafe anymore because of my
drinking and my gaslighting andmy calling her names and my
making it, uh, making her walkon eggshells.
'cause she never knew what toexpect.

(03:20):
I was just ridiculouslyunattractive to her.
in order to avoid, avoid theconflict that would come from,
uh, sex all the time, we didcontinue to engage in sex.
So it was consented.
I never, you know, I nevercrossed the consent line, but it
wasn't enthusiastic consent.

(03:41):
It was, you know, it was, I'mgoing to do this.
So that I can keep from stayingup all night, hearing him
complain about the fact that Inever have sex or so that I, you
know, one of the things she saidoften on the podcast is just
heartbreaking, is sometimes shewould con consent to sexual
contact so that, uh, I would goto sleep, I'd pass out
afterwards and I wouldn't wakeup the kids, complaining about

(04:03):
the fact that we didn't haveenough sex.
So one of the two paths that iscommon, Is continued sexual
activity,,in active addiction.
The other one is for it tocompletely dry up, and sometimes
this is mutual.
It's not always just the nonsubstance using partner.
either way, it often just, sexis a, it just becomes a,

(04:24):
something we don't even talkabout.
Don't even consider.
It's just not part of it.
And so when you enter recovery,I'm a believer.
That first of all, inrelationship recovery, trust is
the hardest thing to win backwhen you've been through
something traumatic, likealcoholism.
I think this probably alsoapplies to infidelity.

(04:44):
you know, there are lots ofother things that this probably
applies to.
winning the trust back is thehardest component, and I think
linked to the trust is intimacy.
It is virtually impossible forsome, uh, two people can have
sex when there's not trust.
That's not a problem.
But to have feelings for eachother, emotional intimacy, that

(05:05):
is basically impossible whenthere's not trust.
Hmm.
one of the things that we talk alot about on the podcast and
that we work on in our ownrelationship and that we talk
through with people, with otherpeople, is this idea that, a
mutual work thing be done.
Trust leads to intimacy, but canlead to trust as well.

(05:27):
So working on that emotionallyintimate part of the
relationship, being vulnerablewith each other, being
physically intimate with eachother, be again, that's the
ultimate vulnerability, right?
getting naked and lying next tosomeone and trusting them.
With your soul, yourphysicality, your men mental
state, everything.
That's kind of the ultimate, invulnerability.

(05:49):
And so working through to thepoint where you can do that not
only comes from trust, but italso helps build trust so that
the trust Hmm.
carry over into everyday life.
Um, so that's a big part of, uh,kind of the direction we're
going now.
The reason I'm in this master'sprogram is through our peer
support, through our podcast,through working with couples, we

(06:12):
can get people to talk aboutanything alcohol related, but as
soon as we start talking aboutsex or intimacy, people
typically get, get pretty shy.
And so I needed kind of formaleducation to continue develop,,
our knowledge in that areabecause, people are less
forthcoming with theirexperiences as it relates to

(06:33):
intimacy than they are as itrelates to alcoholism.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hundred percent.
This comes up a lot, in mypractice, And with my audience
desire discrepancies let'sassume things are generally safe
and one partner wants more sexthan the other.
Right?
I know it's a very generalquestion.
There's not too many details., Iguess how do you work with that?

(06:56):
Or like what's, what are yourthoughts?
Well, th this is an area where,this degree program has come in
super handy.
I think it's really interesting.
I've read, so I've read all the,these research studies now,
right?
'cause I'm in Mm-Hmm.
you know, flying blind, right?
And talking to people, And oneof the studies that I don't
think it gets a lot ofattention, but is super

(07:18):
interesting to me, is that maleis directly relink to survival
of the species, right?
Orgasm and ejaculation are nottechnically exactly the same
thing, but.
Uh, 99% of the time man orgasms,he gives off sperm, right?
so, the fact that typically,again, not always, again, goes

(07:42):
both ways, but Mm-Hmm.
The male has,, the higherlibido.
It just makes or, Uh, even ifyou're a creationist, it, it
makes yeah.
Yeah.
the, that for the man to havesex is necessary for the, for
survival of the species.
a woman to orgasm is not, hasnothing to do with the survival

(08:04):
of the species, this one areafor a woman to orgasm usually
takes a high degree of trust andvulnerability.
if the woman is sexuallysatisfied, then she's probably
with a pretty upstanding.
dude who's, or, you know,obviously we, there's all kinds
of different sexual orientationsand gender identities, and I

(08:26):
don't want to exclude, but mostof the work that we do is in a
really hetero, heteronormative,you know, area.
so for a woman to orgasm, um,she needs to really trust this
guy.
The emotional and mental, thatgoes along with the
physiological.
Now certainly, there, there'slots of research that proves
that women can block all thatout and they can orgasm anyway.

(08:46):
Um, but for kind of the naturalstate of things, be in a, a
situation where they can bestimulated to orgasm, they have
to be relaxed and trusting.
And so their part of the naturalselection process, the female
part of continuing of thespecies and pleasure being an
important component of that isIM it with somebody that I feel

(09:08):
safe with.
And if I do, then I can relaxand enjoy it.
And then, you know, the desirediscrepancy is, is still an
issue because desire andpleasure and orgasm are not the
same thing.
But now, you know, when you'rein this situation where the
orgasm gap is narrowing andthere's a lot of trust, the

(09:30):
emotional intimacy is beingbuilt in the relationship, then
it's a lot easier for couples.
And, I draw on my own personalexperience first before then
we've kind of related and foundthat other couples are in
similar situations.
Then it's a lot easier for mywife, for instance, who has a
lower libido than me to still,look forward to sex and,

(09:53):
understand that maybe, she isn'tthinking about it all day the
way I am and looking forward to.
To getting in bed at night, butshe still knows she's gonna get
a lot out of it.
She's gonna feel warmth andconnection and trust, and she's
gonna be care of.
And she's, she's not gonna beput in any situations that make
her uncomfortable.
And so, the desire discrepancybecomes less of a factor there's

(10:18):
still something in it for her.
are you, are you from Yeah, I'msure you are.
Are you're familiar with EstherPerel and her work?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm a huge Esther Perel fan, oneof the things that she talked
about is, desire or arousal,actually arousal's the better
term for as after they've beenin a relationship for a long

(10:40):
time is often, you know, it'snot instinctual.
It takes a little bit of workbut if you know that it'll come
and that arousal will befollowed by pleasure.
Um, then there's something in itfor both parties and it makes
kind of negotiating arounddesire discrepancies, a more
kind of doable thing.

(11:00):
The other thing I'll say, oh myGod, Jason, we are so, we so
under communicate when it comesto relationships in a general
way, but definitely when itcomes to sex, expect our
partners to be mind readers.
We expect them to know what wewant and when we're gonna want
it, and how we're gonna want it.
And we've been taught from anearly age that conversations

(11:22):
about sex and sexual activity,taboo.
And if we can just break throughthat, I'll tell you, my wife and
I talk about sex every singlenight.
not a long conversation.
But it's often, Hey, what areyou interested in?
And, you know, we know eachother really well at this point.
And I can often say, Hey, I cantell you were having trouble

(11:43):
with one of our kids leading upto bedtime.
And you guys were in a heateddiscussion about something.
And I know that, uh, hits thebrakes to use a term by Emily
Naski, Yeah.
Who, is the author of thebestseller.
Come as You Are.
She talks about, uh, arousal anddesire and there being breaks

(12:05):
for those me, there are very fewbreaks for me.
Like I can have sex naked in acornfield and I'm good to go,
but there are lots of thingsthat make it undesirable for my
wife.
And that's a very typicalrelationship situation to be in.
And so if she's had a stressfulsituation with one of the kids
when we go to bed, I know that'sreally, it's off the table for
tonight and I need to be, I.

(12:27):
Mature in understanding getthat, and get that just because
that discussion with one of ourkids didn't bother me.
Doesn't mean it, it didn'tbother her.
And so communicating, like Isaid, every night, and some
nights I'll say, listen, Ireally would like to have some
kind of sexual contact tonight.
For whatever reason the windblew just right today.
But I, I feel a stronger needthan normal.

(12:50):
And um, know, she willenthusiastically consent, not
because her desire is there, butbecause is in a partnership with
somebody and, she wants to meetme halfway.
When other times I say, youknow, I could take it or leave
it.
And she'll say, well, you know,I really would like to leave it.
And I'll say, great.
But if we don't have thatconversation, then we both lay

(13:11):
there wondering what eachother's Yeah, totally.
frustrated'cause I'm not gettingenough.
She's getting frustrated'causeshe feels like she constantly
has to, give in.
And then we have what we callbig nights, which is, the object
of a big night is her sexualwhich it takes longer.
more of a process.
But it's awesome, man.

(13:31):
I love big nights, but you know,you can't go to bed at 1130 at
night when you've got kids and,and job and Yeah.
expect that.
So we have to kind of plan forthat.
And if you're not communicating,then you're not planning for it.
And I think a lot of thefrustration in relationships
just comes from a lack ofcommunication.
Do you see that in yourpractice?
Yeah, let me share, the framethat I got for desire
discrepancies is kind of whatexactly what you were talking

(13:54):
about.
Usually I'm just gonna say,hetero-normative couple here,
you know, the male partner wantsmore sex, the female partner
maybe as kids.
It's like, oh my God, I'mtouched out.
I just can't, I'm like, just sodrained at the end of the day.
And also maybe she feels likeshe's doing everything she may
feel, you know, disconnectedemotionally from their partner.

(14:15):
And so generally, I hear thisfrom the female partner, I would
be more open to sex if we hadmore of emotional connection.
Right.
Which another way of saying itis if, if the relationship feels
safer.
Yeah.
If I know you, if you aresharing your vulnerabilities,
and the problem is the malepartners, usually I feel
emotional connection when wehave sex, right?

(14:36):
Sometimes it's even associatedwith worth, right?
When we don't have sex, I thinkthat I'm a piece of crap, right?
Is the male partner, Mm-Hmm.
and so we gotta make thatexplicit, right?
We gotta get that out there,right?
Exactly what you're talkingabout.
Talking about it.
And then I think a safe place tostart is with the emotional
connection, right?
Start sharing more.

(14:58):
And then someone shared thisanalogy, just kind of looking at
it as like, a wedding cake.
The first tier is emotionalconnection.
And then when there's more ofthat, then you can put physical
connection.
I'm not talking about sex,however you define it, and then
you're able to put sex on top ofthat.
But once that is there, thensimply the idea of talking about

(15:18):
sex.
And you mentioned the brakes,right?
The accelerators.
Um, having that conversation, Ithrow it out there, what do you
guys think about scheduling sex?
Right?
Whatever.
It works.
But the more there's safety andthey're talking about it, the
better.
So I don't know if that answeredyour question.
Well, yeah.
So many things that you justsaid.
I totally relate to.

(15:40):
I think Disney and the HallmarkChannel have done a huge
disservice to our society Hmm.
by creating these fantasies thatwe are just gonna read each
other's mind and.
No, stand in front of thefireplace and wanna rip each
other's clothes off.
Once you've got kids and jobsand you got a few years under
the belt, that ship has sailed.
That is not gonna happen Um,there's also relatively recent

(16:03):
research that I've read thattalks about there's a nurturing
chemical that they'veidentified, a nurturing hor
hormone that kind of clicks onin a female's brain, uh, once
she becomes pregnant and itnever clicks off again.
And so Uh another huge barrierthat we had to work through in
our relationship is I needed tounderstand that we, so we have

(16:27):
four kids.
mm-Hmm.
My relationship with my kids isdifferent than my wife's
relationship with the kid, thekids.
And two relationships with thekids make my relationship with
my wife different than my wife'srelationship with me.
Very confusing.
I know, but.
Basically, here's what it boilsdown to, because of this
nurturing hormone, um, becauseshe gave birth to them.

(16:50):
My wife thinks about our kidsall the time when my kids are
not in the room with me.
Maybe this makes me a badfather, but, but I know there's
a lot of us out there that feelthis way when my kids aren't in
the room with me, I'm notthinking about'em.
And, we can go long periods oftime in this kind of area where
like, if we go away for theweekend, don't think about him

(17:12):
at all.
And my wife thinks about him allthe time.
And so I have had to come togrips with as, not only a
father, but al also as thehusband to my wife.
I've had to come to grips withthe fact that my, my kids are
her first priority.
And I have acknowledged she ismy first priority.
Uh, the way it's supposed to be,man.

(17:33):
I think yeah.
mutual and family unit, I don'tthink there's anything wrong
with it.
And I've run into it over andover and over and over again
with the people that we've met.
when I expect her to prioritizeme or our sex life or our
intimacy, or our connection orany of that stuff over my kids,
I'm crazy man.

(17:54):
All I'm doing throwing wedgesinto the relationship.
It has been profoundly impactfulon our relationship for me to
recognize she is always gonnachoose them over me.
And that's okay.
And actually I want that becauseI want my kids to have a mother
like that.
I want them to have this, um,protector to that degree, right?
Because I know I'm gonna protecther and ultimately I'm gonna

(18:17):
protect everybody.
Um, not trying to be allmasculine male, like I swing a
big sword kind of a thing.
But, by prioritizing her whenshe's prioritizing them, think
there's a lot of Cohesivenessand a lot of stability to that
kind of structure.
And I think it happens naturallyand we wanna resist,'cause we
want to talk about equalityeverything's the same.

(18:40):
You know, one of the, one of thebiggest problems, going back to
my hatred of the, the weddingvows, here's kind of a side
hatred.
I hate the fact that, peoplerefer to their, the love in
their marriages as unconditionallove.
I think that's complete crap.
think by definition, marriage isa, and re and romantic

(19:02):
relationship is conditionedlove.
I chose you because there werethings about you that I liked.
You chose me'cause there werethings about you that you liked,
things about me that you liked.
We have set these conditions andwe've bonded ourselves together.
The love that I, that I feel formy kids, and certainly the love
my wife feels for my kids istotally different.
That's unconditional.

(19:22):
They could come, and uh, hit herin the knee with a baseball bat
and she'd still love'em.
So we do a disservice when wewanna, just kinda say, I need to
love you as much as you love me.
And we, we, we co-parentequally.
We co-parent for sure, but wehave different we need to
acknowledge it's okay.
Like it does so much good forour relationship that I know

(19:45):
that she's gonna pick them overme because yeah, yeah.
For sure.
grips with that and I can dealwith it.
Does that Yeah, that makes a lotof sense.
You know, let me share too, themore we can.
Make it less about us, thebetter.
And for example, one time mywife and I, we went on a, a just
a couple years ago, I guess nowwe went to Florida and the kids

(20:08):
were with my parents and we hada week.
And so in my mind I'm thinkinglike, you know, we're gonna be
together and own, we're gonnahave crazy sex all day.
Go to the beach.
Beach, right.
And, you know, we were intimate,right?
We had sex, but,, not how I wasenvisioning.
And we talked about it and shewas like, Hey Jason, after the
birth of our kids, like, I feellike my body is just totally

(20:32):
foreign to me, right?
And I've been having like bodyissues and as a result, it's
hard for me to.
Be more open to sex.
Right.
We would say that would be abreak, I guess we would say.
And when I heard that, it waslike, oh, wow.
Right.
We had emotional intimacy there.
And as a result, I made it lessabout me.

(20:54):
Right.
It doesn't mean I'm not gonnagive up and be like, oh, I'm
never gonna have sex.
You know, we're gonna talk aboutit.
But still that was reallyimportant.
Kind of like what you weresaying about her first priority
is always the kids, not me.
You know?
I think fundamentally the morewe know it's not about you.
Right?
Yeah.
Well, it, that's right.
It changes the relationship.

(21:15):
This is someone you love, so nowyou can have empathy for this
thing she's struggling with, tosaying, you know, she's just
withholding'cause she's mean, orMm-Hmm.
'cause she's stubborn.
Or any number of reasons.
You know, back to this wholenatural selection, this whole
survival of the species topic.
What she's experiencing makestotal sense to me on just a

(21:35):
logical standpoint, right?
She has had babies, has done herjob for survival of the species.
if sex is related to that, hersubconscious, in her, you know,
the part of her brain that shecan't access, she's checked it
off the list.
Why would she ever wanna havesex again?
Like, honestly, I think of itlike, I'm lucky that she ever

(21:56):
wants to have sex with me.
She had her baby, she did herthing.
it's Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Nice., around I, I, I'm not onmy wife or Yeah.
not, it's not like that, butlike, Hey, my sperm doesn't know
we had a baby.
My sperm wants to keep going.
I've had a vasectomy and mysperm still thinks it's got
some, some role That's funny.
That's funny.

(22:17):
Oh my gosh.
I wanna, I wanna go back to thedesired discrepancy Mm-Hmm.
I wanna add one more thing thatI think is so important and
something that when I learnedit, it changed my relationship
with my wife, it changed ourintimate relationship.
Uh, back to Belgian Americanpsychotherapist, Esther Perel,
who is an expert in this field,she has kind of a cute way of

(22:39):
saying this, but I think there'sa lot of truth to it.
She talks about how foreplay,foreplay me, you know, starts
with, maybe a little shouldermassage when we get in bed,
right?
Foreplay for my wife.
And I think many women, mostwomen, you know, dare I even
say, starts at the end of theprevious orgasm, says Esther

(23:01):
Perel.
So what happens during the daymore to do with the likelihood
of an intimate encounter, aphysical, intimate encounter in
bed at night the things thatactually happen in bed.
I can all of a sudden turn onthe charm and start rubbing her
neck.
But listen, the ship has sailed.
If I was grouchy with herearlier or I forgot to do

(23:24):
something she asked me to do, oryou know, I left a pile of
clothes, dirty clothes on thefloor, like that is gonna have a
bigger impact on desirediscrepancy most Just being kind
of partner that our partnerswant,, in kind of a long term.
And just always, you know, it'seasy, right?

(23:45):
You're in relationship with thisperson.
You're around'em all the time.
It's easy to get short andsnippy and think I didn't do
anything wrong.
I was just trying to expeditethe communication by not
listening to your wholestatement before I responded to
it.
Right?
it's been very impactful on meto recognize how much that
relates to her intimate feelingstoward me.

(24:06):
Hmm.
every time I cut her off andfinish her sentence for her, or
don't really listen,'cause I'mwatching the football game, um,
that has a huge impact on thebedroom.
know what I mean?
Yeah, if, and most, I think mostmen don't have any But what
you're saying though is soimportant, and I coach people a
lot in this, look at your sideof the seesaw.
Right.

(24:26):
You know, but also in a way onthat, I always encourage people,
to identify what you want andthink of it.
What can I do on my side toallow my partner to do said
behavior, right?
It may not work and that's okay.
Right?
But kind of what you weretalking about, looking at your
side of the seesaw, it's soimportant because as a couples

(24:48):
therapists, I see a lot theblame.
Gosh, you just need to do blank,blank, blank, blank.
Okay, well slow down.
Let's think about what can youdo.
And Like you can't get anyone todo anything.
They may do it, but then there'sresentment and it's gonna come
back later.
But what can you do on yourside?
Which boils down to the more youcan have the relationship be a

(25:10):
safe environment.
Yeah.
Trust.
Trust space for vulnerability,right?
You're putting yourself in thebest position and also being
okay with it too.
If my wife says no to sex, youknow, I may not like it in
beginning, but I'm gonna beokay, right?
The relationship's not doomed.
I'm not a piece of crap.
yeah.
You know, um, a another justkind of profound game changer

(25:33):
for us in our relationship waswhen I stopped because you just,
you just talked about how youcan't change people.
I stopped looking at the thingsthat my wife was not capable of
doing and tried to make hercapable of doing those things.
to basically berate her intodoing the things I wanted her to
do.
I stopped looking at it that wayand started curiosity and

(25:56):
empathy and started saying, whycan't she do that?
There's gotta Hmm.
something.
Maybe it's from when I was anactive alcoholic.
Maybe it is from her childhood,because I kind of made light of
it earlier, but she did grow upwith an alcoholic mother did get
divorced twice.
there is, this like, likeattachment theory stuff.
Maybe Yeah.
something.
So a, a tangible example in ourrelationship.

(26:19):
My wife really struggles toinitiate, like now that we talk
about sex every night, it's kindof a mutual discussion.
that, even if she did havedesire, even if she wanted to
have sex, she really couldn'tinitiate it.
Like she just doesn't have thattool in her toolbox.
than me getting all hurted upabout that, right, I.
You know, um, why do I alwayshave to be the one to initiate?

(26:41):
It makes me feel'cause I'malways the one initiating, which
I think is a super common, uh,complaint Mm-Hmm.
than, uh, getting, getting allbent up about that.
say, I don't know what thereason is, but she can't do it.
Mm-Hmm.
can't do it.
Yeah.
I can spend the next 50 yearsbeing mad about that, on a, a

(27:01):
once a week basis or whatever,or once a month basis, or I can
acknowledge it just isn'thappening.
Yeah.
are things I can't do either.
You know, Yeah.
there's, there's stuff thatshe,, you from a parenting
perspective or whatever, stuffthere, I'm a pretty good
listener now, but I'll never beas good a listener as she wants
me to be.
It's just never gonna happen ashard Yeah, yeah, cut me a little

(27:24):
slack and say, you know, he'sdoing his best and that's yeah,
totally.
I agree that this quote came tomind from, uh, my mentor, Terry
Real, and he talks about can Igrieve the fact that I'm not
getting blank, right?
Which maybe, in terms ofcleanliness, in terms of, you
know, money spending, money, oneperson is spend there, one
person is saver.

(27:45):
There's all differences, right?
I'm kind of more of a cleanperson, my wife less so let's
say to clean.
Can I grieve the fact my wifemay not always put the coats in
the closet, right?
Yes, I can agree that.
While I'm accepting what I amgetting, right, you know, this
comes back around to this wholeself-esteem issue.
The better I feel about myself,the more I don't care whether

(28:05):
the coats are in the closet orUh, You know, the better about
myself, the more I don't carethat she doesn't initiate sex
and that it's gotta be this.
Awkward discussion every night,which isn't awkward anymore, but
it was awkward first, you know?
And Yeah.
Yeah.
gotta talk about, I want her tomind read, but she And so the
better I feel about myself, themore, and, and you know,

(28:25):
self-esteem is not arrogance.
It's not narcissism.
Those are bad things and thoseare different things.
Self-esteem is just, know, I'msatisfied, man.
I did my best.
I had these encounters today andthey went okay, and this one
didn't go so well.
And I'll try to do better nexttime.
And I feel pretty good aboutmyself.
And I don't need to medicatewith substances.
I don't need to medicate withsex.
I don't need to medicate bymaking sure my wife does things

(28:47):
my way because I can't handle itif she doesn't.
And so this all wraps backaround to self-esteem, you know
So if you want to know moreabout Matt.
And you want to hear more of hiswisdom, check out the
intoxicated podcast.
And as I mentioned, there'll bea link in the show notes and he
does that with his wife, Sherry.
Also, I'm gonna leave a link forhis book, sober evolution, as

(29:10):
well as the different programson this name, them echoes of
recovery.
And shout sobriety and I'llleave links to all that.
And again, thank you so much forlistening.