January 4, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, Dr. Laura Louis, a seasoned couples therapist, shares her insights and experiences from her 20-year career.
She discusses the challenges and joys of working with couples, the importance of effective communication, and how vulnerability and emotional intimacy play crucial roles in relationships.
Dr. Laura also discusses common issues such as the negative sentiment override, the impact of family of origin, and practical strategies for improving relational dynamics.
Introduction
Dr. Laura's Background
Challenges of Couples Therapy
Creating Connection in Relationships
Men and Feelings
Effective Communication Tools
Signs You Should Seek Couples Therapy
Stonewalling and Taking Breaks
Final Thoughts and Resources
Link to Dr. Laura Louis' Atlanta Couple Therapy practice.
Her book Martial Peace
___
You can learn more about Jason's couple therapy practice here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, everyone.
I want to share a conversation Ihad with Dr.
Laura.
A seasoned couples therapist whoshares her insights and
experiences from her 20 yearcareer.
She owns Atlanta couple oftherapy, and she also is a
speaker and an author.
We had a really coolconversation.
She talks about.
her story, why she startedworking with couples.
(00:21):
And she shares very practical.
And actionable advice to have abetter relationship.
Check it out.
But first I'm going to introducethe show.
Welcome everyone.
This is solving disconnectionand creating connected
relationships for couples andparents.
My name is Jason Polk, and I'veworked this exclusively with
couples as a therapist and coachfor over 10 years.
(00:44):
On this podcast, I share myexperience professionally.
Personally and those of ouramazing guests.
Dr.
Laura, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast.
how are things going for you?
Things are going well.
Things are going well.
I really love what I do.
I have a couples retreat comingup and I'm super excited about
(01:05):
that.
So yeah, things are going well.
Yeah, that's great.
And so our listeners know youare a couples therapist in
Atlanta.
Yes, I own a couples therapypractice, Atlanta couple
therapy.
Um, I also have a online academyis called the after I do academy
where every single month a groupof couples are able to get
(01:28):
support and also a vault oftrainings around like intimacy,
communication, rebuilding trust.
And then I also have a bookmarital peace that I wrote.
Okay.
So, you know, a thing or twoabout relationships.
I've been in this field for 20years, so yeah, I love what I
(01:51):
do.
Yeah, well, that's great.
Um, well, so many places tostart, but, you know, of course
I want to ask about the couplesretreat you have coming up, but
before we get into that.
What made you, get into thefield of counseling, therapy,
become a couples therapist and,you know, wherever you'd like to
(02:13):
start, I'd love to hear it.
Um, growing up in my family Isaw a lot of divorce, like
literally everybody in my familydivorced.
Um, parents, my grandparents,aunts, uncles.
And so I was always curiousabout relationships and what it
took to make relationships work,because I would always like
(02:33):
watch television and coupleswould seem very happy.
Like I would watch the Cosbyshow and just always feel so.
interested in like, how, like,how are people having this long
lasting love even as a child, asa small child.
So once I got to college, I knewright away that I was going to
work with couples and study likehealthy relationships.
(02:57):
So when I got to Howarduniversity for my PhD, Like
right away, I was determinedthat I was going to write my
dissertation on,, maritalsatisfaction.
So, yeah, it's been a long timecoming.
And I always say, ever since Iwas a kid, that's when I first
really knew this is the fieldfor me.
(03:18):
Yeah, well, that that's great.
That's great.
I want to say to for ourlisteners, working with couples,
from my perspective, is one ofthe hardest things to do in our
discipline of therapy.
What's your take on that?
I actually like it.
I love it.
I prefer it.
(03:39):
To individual therapy.
I think it's something about thedynamic between couples, seeing
how couples interact, seeingthem go from sitting on opposite
sides of the couch to seeingthem sit a little bit closer, or
seeing one spouse that maybestarted out, like, really angry,
seeing them, like, lean on theirspouse's shoulder, or put their
hand on their, on theirpartner's leg.
(04:00):
Like, I love the interactionpart of it.
Hmm that's great.
Well, I want to ask a verygeneral question.
What moves couples from beingdisconnected, sit on opposite
sides of the couch, to movingcloser to each other, to feeling
more connected?
I know there's so many places togo with that, but what comes to
(04:23):
mind for you?
I like, um, what Sue Johnstoncalls hot cognitions, like what
we, when we're feeling likestrong emotion and the stories
that we, we tell ourselves.
And so I think that as couplesstart to tell themselves a new
story about themselves, theirmarriage, their future.
(04:45):
I think that has the biggestimpact.
And also vulnerability,emotional intimacy, being able
to, to be open, with yourspouse, even when things aren't
going well.
Yeah, my perspective onvulnerability well, if you share
vulnerability, if you're sharingsomething vulnerable, you can
give something for your partnerto connect with.
(05:07):
Also, the practice is creatingemotional intimacy.
And I don't know if you agreewith that or not.
I 100 percent agree with that.
And I think it's so powerful,um, emotional intimacy.
And so usually in my sessionswith, with couples, I'll have
(05:27):
some component where they aren'ttalking directly to me, but
they're talking to each other.
And it's so powerful sometimeswhen they really have that aha
moment where they can see eachother and hear each other.
And sometimes it may besomething that their spouses say
over and over and over and overand over again, but when they're
(05:49):
locking hand to hand and need aknee and, and that heart space
is opened up, like those are themoments when I see such powerful
transformation.
Yeah, that's great.
And can you say a little bitbecause I'm not too familiar
with, um, Sue Johnson's work,but you mentioned the new story.
(06:10):
So her work is calledEmotionally Focused Couples
Therapy.
And within Emotionally FocusedCouples Therapy, there's this
concept called hot cognitions.
And so within hot cognitions,there may be a moment where.
You're asking a couple likewhat, what happened and they are
like, okay, this is whathappened.
(06:31):
And you say, okay, well, how didyou feel about that?
Or what did you think aboutthat?
And they may say, Oh, nothing isfine.
And just like kind of dismisswhat just happened, like the
feeling there.
And then so you're leaning intothat feeling of so nothing, so
you don't, so when we talkabout, um, your spouse.
(06:51):
Cheating on you.
You don't feel anything.
And so it's like leaning moreinto, into what they're saying
when they are just missing thefeeling.
And then helping them to renarrate the story.
So say for example, they standwith, Oh, they cheated, but I'm
over it.
It's fine.
We just need to move on.
(07:13):
Um, and so re narrating thestory is.
Like in this particular case is,is that like, is that right?
That you felt nothing is, andthen them getting to a space
where they can connect, withwhat the feeling is and their
story about that feeling.
So in a way that the feelings,and this is going to sound sort
(07:34):
of silly, also myself being acouple of, therapist, what
you're seeing is feelings arehuge.
Or like a good place to startfor couples.
It's interesting.
I have, I have a few differentviews on that.
I'd love to hear.
So I think that feelings arevery important.
I do think that they areimportant.
I'll start off with that.
(07:55):
And in addition to that, I thinkthat they're not everything.
And I think sometimes we can puttoo much,, Too much emphasis on
how I feel like I feeldepressed.
I don't feel like getting up Idon't feel like getting out of
bed.
So I'm just gonna stay here cuzthis is cuz I feel sad I don't
think we can I don't think weshould give our feelings that
much power at some point we needto think about like, am I living
(08:20):
the life that, that I want tolive?
Or are my feelings running mylife?
So I, I think it's a little bitof gray in there in terms of
feeling.
Yeah.
So maybe in other words.
I'm feeling anxious I don't wantto do the podcast right or i'm
feeling anxious.
I don't want to speak in publicSo i'm just not going to do it
Yes, when maybe yourbreakthrough is on the other
(08:43):
side of facing your fears likethis podcast that you created is
It's so amazing and transforminglives and if the fear or the
anxiety of well What will peoplethink or I don't really feel
like doing if that like tookover everything then?
People's lives wouldn't betransformed in the way that they
are.
Yeah, I got it.
(09:03):
So what about, because thiscomes up a lot, men and feelings
can you talk about it?
But maybe like Morespecifically, at least things
that I see men are notnecessarily encouraged, I think
culturally.
And so that could be like howyou grew up to share feelings.
(09:25):
The idea is kind of like logicis better feelings.
No thanks.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
That's a great question.
You're asking so many goodquestions.
Alright, thanks.
Um, I see it in multiple layers.
So, one, I think you are 100percent correct that society
does not support men inexpressing their feelings and
(09:48):
expressing vulnerability.
It's not.
Considered masculine or sociallyacceptable a lot of times when
we see little boys and they'recrying be a big boy don't cry
and that that affects how menrelate to their feelings and
then some people will tell melike when it comes to couples
counseling usually it's thewoman that is booking the
session with me and then she'llsay oh he don't want to come
(10:11):
here i want to open up all ofthese things but then once They
do get into therapy and we startdoing this deeper work.
I see there are a lot offeelings there.
And sometimes because men maynot express their feelings in
the same way that women do,sometimes those feelings get
dismissed.
Yeah.
(10:32):
Well, how do they, from yourexperience, men do express
feelings?
What are some like common ways?
Sometimes it may look like, it'sstill like sex is just a
checklist to you.
And I think, like for me as acouple of therapists, I'm
looking at the underlyinglogging underneath the
complaint.
(10:52):
So the underlying longing is Iwant to feel desired.
I want to know that you want mejust as much as I want you.
The words are not there, but.
I think listening beyond thesurface,, we can feel that.
So the idea for males, I wouldlike more sex.
And underneath that, it's kindof a longing for their partner,
(11:14):
or they want to feel desired.
Mm hmm.
I got it.
Well, that's interesting, too.
One of my mentors, Terry Real,are you familiar with some of
this stuff?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He talks about us malesculturally acceptable emotions
are anger and lust.
(11:34):
Okay.
And so that kind of puts malesin a box, but it's almost like
the lust or the sex is the onlyoutlet for, emotions.
But what you're saying is ifthey can communicate, I want to
feel desired, gosh,, I really ammissing you.
I'm longing for our connection.
(11:56):
But oftentimes.
And feel free to correct us.
Women hear that it's give mesex.
I want sex.
I'm going to have sex yet.
Um, when, when can we have sex?
Feel free to correct that.
Yeah.
That's when, when a lot of timesit's, it's, it's so much deeper
than that.
A lot of times from my maleclients, a lot of times I'm
(12:17):
hearing a desire to be pleasedand a desire to please, like not
wanting to just like, Oh, checkthe box of happiness.
to know that I did a good job,that you, that you enjoyed this
time of us being together.
I just, the woman just layingthere like, okay, let me know
when you're done, but activelyengaged.
(12:41):
Can you,, just thoughts on Well,this is a common case, but that
is, let's say the male partnerwants more sex,, but the female
partner is like, I only want tohave sex if we're feeling
emotionally connected.
But the male partner is like,well, I feel emotional
connection via sex.
Right.
(13:02):
And then the male partner islike, well, there must be
something wrong with you, um,that you don't desire me
anymore.
How would you help that coupleout?
One of the things that I like todo is called the imago dialogue
in my session.
And in the amogal dialogue, thecouple is facing each other.
It's kind of like activelistening on steroids.
(13:24):
One person is the listener andone person is the speaker.
And the speaker is avoiding allyou statements.
You did this, you did that.
The person's avoiding all ofthat and just focusing in on
what they desire, the meaning ofthat desire to them.
And then their partner is just,Saying like what I'm hearing you
(13:44):
say what what I imagine you meanis this and then them saying yes
Or no this yes, that's right.
That's what I mean or no What Ireally want you to hear is this
and so I think that helps inthat type of dynamic Where they
really need to like empathize orstep into each other's shoes
Even when their perspectives onthe issue is different so what
(14:07):
you're saying in a way to Is thefirst step is to start talking
about it, but in a way where youcan like hear what each other
are saying.
Yes.
And then also validation.
That's the third level of theMago dialogue is having some
part where.
I'll ask the listener, I'll say,is there any part of what he
(14:29):
said that you can validate?
I'm not saying that you have toagree with every single thing
that your spouse said, but isthere any part of what they said
that you can validate?
And in those moments, I oftenfind that they do find a part of
what their spouse said thatresonates with them.
And it's so transformative whenyou can hear your etiquette.
Experience be heard, understood,and validated by your spouse.
(14:54):
And after that, that's when wecan get into problem solving and
to like, okay, well, how can wemake it so that you both are
getting some of what you want?
And it may not be that we'rehaving sex every night, but it's
not that we're having sex once amonth either.
And, and we're also attending toher needs of emotional
validation.
Like she may be needing.
(15:15):
Um, that emotional intimacyright after a fight that's going
to help her open up to beingmore physical with them.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Sometimes, this happens atleast, my experience say,, the
couple has just had kids and thefemale partner is saying, Oh my
(15:38):
gosh, I'm like just touched outor my body has changed.
I don't know if I have aquestion there.
That happens so often after awoman has a baby, her body has
changed.
(15:58):
She is hormonal.
Like she's experiencing thingsthat she never experienced
before.
She may not be feeling asattractive as she once did.
And then also they're notsleeping because the baby's
waking up every two hours.
And so it's a period of justadjusting to what their new
normal looks like.
Yeah, for sure.
(16:19):
What's the best way that a maleCould support their partner
through this, you know, I guesstraditionally female partner
through, Oh my gosh, like thingsare changing.
I have to take care of this kid.
I have, a couple that I wasworking with and I heard it once
said, um, Help is the newforeplay.
(16:42):
And so, and so in some cases,what may help is doing things
for them, taking some of thethings off of, your wife or
partner's plate.
So that she's not feeling sooverburdened with all of taking
care of all of the things andshe has more capacity to be able
(17:05):
to to meet her spouse's needsthat way.
Yeah, yeah, I got it.
That makes sense.
So help is a new foreplay.
I think I'm gonna have to usethat line with certain couples
that I work with.
I like that.
Well, I just curious, why iscommunication tools like the
imago dialogue providingvalidation to each other how
(17:28):
come we don't normally do that?
Like how can we never learnthat, I guess I'm getting like a
bigger picture, right?
But it's like gosh, some ofthose things are so important,
but we never learn that right?
Yeah Communication is such avaluable skill set.
Um, but it's not a lot of spacesthat we are trained in how to
(17:51):
communicate.
I mean, outside of our fieldwhere we're trained to the limit
on communication, I think, andlike the regular lay person
doesn't.
Get a lot of, training on thingslike this.
And so, as a result, sometimeswhat I see in my practice is
that people listen to respond.
Like, as soon as you take abreak, I'm gonna go in.
(18:14):
Like, uh uh, I see that happen.
When couples get into this phaseof negative sentiment override
where they're so upset and angryabout everything that they're
not listening to what theirspouse is saying.
The actual intention.
Yeah.
And so a lot of what you helpcouples with is just slow down
(18:35):
and actually just listen.
That's a big part of the work isslowing down to really take it
fully in and it's hard.
It is not easy.
It is hard for couples becausesometimes I'll see that one
person may be the listener.
Let's say the male is thespeaker and the female is the
listener.
A lot of times what one personmay hear and what the other
(18:59):
person said is totally differentbecause they're filtering it
through their lens.
They're filtering it throughlike things that they may have
argued about before.
And so they're really notlistening.
And so I think that checking into see, did I get that right?
Like, so I'm hearing you saythis.
(19:19):
Did I get that right?
That part is such a crucial stepbecause sometimes it's not, it's
not correct.
Yeah, but even sharing, did Iget that right?
You're communicating that youcare and you're trying to
understand, you know, but likethings we don't learn, right?
(19:41):
Like, where's the class on this?
Yeah, but say, hey, perfect.
That's your work, right?
And you're doing a workshop,right?
I mean, is that some of thethings that you do in your
workshop?
Yeah.
Yes.
And then after I do Academy, Italk about communication a lot
because communication is one ofthe number one reasons why
couples divorce.
It's not money, it's not sex.
(20:01):
Mm-Hmm.
It's not infidelity.
It's, did you hear me?
do you understand what I'msaying?
Is what I'm, does what I'msaying matter to you?
It's, it's the communicationthat in so many marriages.
Yeah.
And in relational life therapymodality, I've been trained in,
as I mentioned his name for likethe third time, uh, Terry says,
(20:24):
and feel free to push back onthis.
It's a generalization.
He says an angry woman is anunheard woman.
Um, but I think there's a lot oftruth there.
And I've said that in sessionsand the female partner was
talking to was like, yep,exactly.
Oh, I gotta write that down.
(20:44):
That was good, Sam.
That was really good.
Yeah, thanks, but it'sessentially like slowing down to
what you're saying incommunication.
Gosh, if we could just slow downand listen to each other, that
could solve, a big percentage.
I think it would solve a lot ofproblems in marriages if we
(21:05):
could slow down, if we couldconnect and listen, free of
distraction, without thetelevision on, without checking
social media every five seconds,just really in tune with each
other.
Yes.
Okay.
You mentioned the negativesentiment override and,, for the
(21:26):
listeners, think John Gottmansaid something like that.
Positive, sentiment, negativesentiment.
But essentially what that is, isthat things have happened.
Ruptures, disagreements, thingsgone unrepaired.
And so it's we have a lens wherewe see our partner in a negative
way.
(21:46):
And that can, I assume,attribute to the lack of
listening, right?
You're saying something to meright now, but I don't care
because I'm viewing you in anegative lens.
I'm waiting for you to stoptalking for me to tell you how
you're wrong.
Yes.
It happens a lot in marriage andunfortunately people wait so
(22:07):
long in that space before everseeking help.
Yeah.
And I don't know if anythingcomes to mind for you, what are
some red flags or warning signsthat you are starting to develop
that negative sentimentoverride?
And then when those red flagscomes up, that means you go to
couple therapy, right?
(22:28):
It means you go see,, Dr.
Laura,, fly to Atlanta, right.
Or go online to your academy,other common, like things that
people can be aware of.
Mhm.
So dr john Gottman, a researcherout of Seattle, he did what's
called longitudinal studies andhe studied couples over years
(22:49):
and in some cases decades tofind what were some of the
predictors of relationshipsbeing able to stand the test of
time.
And he found that there werefour main predictors of
relationships not working out.
And so those four things arecriticism, contempt,
stonewalling, and defensiveness.
These are some of the red flagsthat couples should watch out
(23:11):
for.
Can you share a little bit aboutthat?
Like, criticism, maybe like anexample comes to mind for you?
Sure.
Sure.
So criticism is when you attackthe core of who your your spouse
is.
So it's not that we're talkingabout.
You didn't wash the dishes.
No, you're a lazy person.
Or, it's not that you didn't getme anything for my birthday.
(23:34):
Like you are not thoughtful.
so instead of focusing in on thebehavior attacking who your
partner is either through,, namecalling or cursing or, um, it's
more about, The attack, ontheir, their personal.
I got it.
Yeah.
And so what he would suggest isinstead we state our feelings
(23:55):
using I statements that expressa positive me.
So one of the things I talkabout with my couples is instead
of saying like you're lazysaying, um, when X happened, I
felt why I would like B.
So giving them some recipe forsuccess.
Yeah, so a way to communicatewhat you're feeling without
(24:16):
putting your partner down.
Yes.
Okay.
And so if you do find yourselfcriticizing your partner, that
may be a sign that things aregoing in the wrong direction.
It's not the worst of them, butit is a big one.
Yeah.
Like contempt is probably not agood one, right?
Consent is the worst one, um,one of the biggest predictors
(24:39):
of, relationships ending, notworking out, divorce, and so
consent is, sometimes consentcan be in your body language,
like, this again, that'sconsent, hostile humor, sarcasm,
all of that is, um, It'scontempt.
And also there's been studiesthat have shown that people
(24:59):
don't live as long when they'reliving with someone that holds
contempt for them.
So it shortens your lifespan.
Yeah.
How do you work with someonewho's like, Well, yeah, of
course, I'm angry at them.
I have content from because theydon't do XYZ.
They deserve it.
I would say, but do you deserveit?
(25:23):
Because unforgiveness is likedrinking poison and expecting
the other person to die.
Like, how is this negativityimpacting you, your immune
system, your cardiovascularsystem?
Nice.
And so what you're saying, maybeit's not that they don't deserve
for you to be upset with them.
You deserve better by not, Ibeing contemptuous to them.
(25:49):
Drinking the poison and helpingthem to see how poisonous it can
be.
Yeah, totally.
When you're saying it shortenslifespan, And I think also
couples have to consider all ofthe other elements of their life
because Yes, your marriage isvery important.
(26:09):
And we have to take that intoaccount, but you also have
little people around you that'slooking to you to determine what
marriage looks like, what lovelooks like, and let's give them
an amazing example.
And so it's your kids, it's yourfamily, it's also your work.
Like, when you think about howis this impacting me, like being
(26:30):
negative all the time?
Like, am I able to show up fullyand focus and be productive if
my heart is filled with all thisnegativity?
I imagine not.
Yeah, totally.
And also, you're less likely toget what you want, right?
If you're expressing contempt,you know, we haven't talked
about growing up, but youmentioned it.
(26:51):
I do a lot of work with aroundfamily of origin.
Typically when I see a couple ofthe first session is with them
together, looking at theirrelationship history.
And then session two and sessionthree is individual sessions
where we're looking at, atfamily of origin.
How was love expressed in yourhome?
Like between your parents, butalso towards you, how was
(27:14):
anxiety, and sadness dealt with,how did you see conflict be
resolved?
So I do a lot of, earlychildhood exploration and.
In those first two sessionssession two and session three.
Yeah, I got it.
And can you say something aboutgoing back to the signs?
Of oh my gosh, maybe we shoulddo couples therapy.
(27:36):
Can you talk about stonewalling?
Sure, so stonewall I typicallysee more men stonewalling than
women um Some gender differenceswith um stonewalling dr.
John Gottman calls,, thispattern,, a demand withdrawal
pattern, where the more oneperson is demanding, let's talk
(27:56):
about this, we need to finishthis conversation, the more the
other person withdraws.
And stonewalling can happenthrough an emotional withdrawal,
and you know your spouse isemotionally withdrawn when you
ask, how are you doing?
Fine.
How was your day?
Fine.
Okay.
So all one word answers.
they're physically present.
They're showing up to dinnerevery night, but emotionally
(28:17):
they are completely checked outof the relationship.
That's an example ofstonewalling, but sometimes
people physically stonewallwhere they I'm done with this
conversation.
I'm out of here and walk out theroom.
Those are some examples ofstonewalling.
Yeah, I got it.
And for certain partners, whenyou walk away, Things don't go
(28:37):
well.
They follow you.
I've seen it and I know you'veseen it too.
I'm done with this conversation.
No, you're not done.
I need to walk away.
Don't you dare walk away.
Right.
And it's continuing that patternand it's not good.
Right.
One of the things I talk aboutin the after I do Academy is I
(28:59):
tell couples how to take a breakbecause there are times when the
conversation has gotten toointense where all problem
solving has gone out the window.
And that's when we tend to saythings that we don't mean or it
doesn't come out the right way.
So there are times when we, weneed to take a break.
Not to keep mentioning Dr.
Gabbin, but he is a guru in thecouples therapy space.
(29:21):
One of the things that he saysis, once our heart rate gets
above 100 beats per minute,that's when we really should
take a break.
And so I tell couples that Likeit's okay to take a break.
You just have to be mindful.
How so as like, I'm feelingflooded right now, or I'm having
a difficult time listening, isit okay if we take a break?
(29:43):
And then I instruct the spouse.
I, if you don't take a break,that's when things tend to go
left.
So I'm going to encourage youwhen things get to that level.
Allow your spouse to take abreak.
I just want you to set a time ofwhen you're gonna come back.
Whoever's the partner that isflooding and initiating the
break, I encourage that to bethe spouse that initiates coming
back.
So the other spouse isn't justlike, well, when can we talk
(30:06):
again?
Or, issues don't get piled up.
Yeah.
So that's how I recommend takingbreaks.
Yeah, I just want to comment onthat.
I think it's so important forcouples to take breaks when
you're flooded, right?
When you're seeing red, becauseif you interact, like you said,
in that state of mind,everything you say or do, you're
(30:28):
going to have to apologize forlater.
Exactly what you said.
And so to have that agreementthat we're going to take a
break, but also build in thereis space to come back.
Typically, I would say 20minutes to two hours have the
break and during the break, Iencourage couples to do
something soothing.
Um, not get on the phone andtalk all about what just
(30:49):
happened, but just do somethingthat like, watch the comedy
show, go for a walk, practicemeditation, like something that
is an effective coping strategy.
And then once they come backtogether,, they're usually able
to talk then, and I'll encouragethem to own their part of it.
Cause It's usually some partthat a person plays and that may
(31:11):
not be that you're 100 percentresponsible for every problem in
the relationship.
But it may be I can come backand I can say, well, you know, I
probably shouldn't haveapproached you that way.
Or I probably could have talkedto you more calmly.
So just like owning their part.
Yeah, I think that's greatbecause if you do slow down and
(31:31):
you think about what is my partin this, it can provide that
humility.
Which is needed because we, wehave to come down, right?
You're not better, right?
I know you think, oh my God,like, if only they would do this
and you wouldn't be arguing,right?
I know that's what you'rethinking, but, you know, to come
(31:53):
down.
Okay.
What is my part in that?
And,, I think the more you cando that, that sort of
accountability, they can startto create more of that kind of
trust, right?
I don't focus too much on theself soothing during timeouts,
but I need to, I think that'sgreat.
And also think about what isyour part so you can come back
(32:14):
with some humility to repairrepair.
I look at it, you're givingsomething for your partner to
connect with, right?
We can't connect with criticism,you know, I did this, um,
because you're such an a-hole.
right, right.
Oh yes.
You're so that's what instead,come here, come here.
(32:36):
Let's fix it.
But yeah, so sometimes.
The defensiveness comes up ofwhy I wouldn't do this if you
didn't do that.
And so that's when I reallyencourage like just, you know,
taking accountability, which isnot always easy for couples.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, it is not always easybecause again, you have to
(32:59):
recognize my part yeah, and thenif they're therapists, I'm
celebrating it when they takeaccountability.
Oh my God, I'm through the moon.
I'm like, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, let me share too.
My take as a couple oftherapists is for the listeners.
When couples share likeaccountability, be like, Hey, I
know I'm not always perfect oreven small things like that.
(33:21):
It's a really good sign.
And it's kind of a brush offresh air too.
It's like, all right, you toocan have some ownership of how
you're challenging, right?
Yes.
Because we're all, Stan Tackettsays, we're all a pain in the
ass.
Right?
And we have to kind of like ownthat.
Anyway, I know you are anamazing couple's therapist.
(33:45):
I like to it's probably similarto you like just keep it real
with my clients becausesometimes our clients can look
to us like we're perfect andhave it all together.
And I'm like, no, no, absolutelynot.
Just like you said, we're allpain in the ass at some point.
Yeah, we're all the pain.
Yes.
Right.
Um, well, a hundred percent.
(34:08):
likewise,, Dr.
Laura, it sounds like you'redoing some great stuff, online
academy, your book, working withcouples, but, I know we're
coming up on time.
Anything else that you wouldlike to share, or would you like
to, share more about what yougot going on?
Sure.
I just want to encourage couplesout there to, keep going, keep
striving,, even when it'schallenging.
(34:30):
I remember like a few years ago,I had, um, surgery.
I had, um, a fibroid that needsto be removed and it was kind of
scary because they had, when, Idon't know if you've ever had
surgery, but when you havesurgery, they go through all
these questions of, what do Ido?
Well, what do you want to happenif you don't wake up?
And I'm basically the reality oflike, what, I thought this was
just the outpatient procedure.
(34:51):
And I remember my mom beingthere and she got me this plan
and I adore my mom.
Like we're really close.
She's a therapist too.
And so when I look at the plan,this was like a few months
later, after my surgery, theplant has started.
The wither and I was like, Ohman, I could keep my plan alive.
And when I thought about it, Ihad not been watering it.
(35:14):
And so I just encourage all thecouples out there to look at
your marriage as though it is aplant that needs tending to
that's that needs watering.
Um, And then just a little bitabout, like, if there's any
couples out there who would liketo work together, um, the After
I Do Academy, that is somethingwhere I'm able to, like, work
(35:37):
with you and give you support interms of, like, how you can
navigate some of these conflictsthat, that come up in marriage.
That's a resource.
And also my book, Marital Peace,I've done over a thousand
speaking engagements.
So whenever I get asked aquestion more than one, I'm
like, okay, why don't I,, recordsomething on that topic?
(35:57):
So it either go in the, after Ido academy or like in, in the
book marital peace, I basicallytook all of the challenges that
I was seeing in my work in termsof challenges that couples were
having and put a chapter in, inthe book on how couples can
reconcile those things.
So, yeah, very cool.
Well, that's awesome.
So the real couple's experienceand how to handle that.
(36:21):
But I agree 100%, right?
Again, another quote, my mentor,intimacy is not something you
have, it's something you do.
And it's kind of like, it's aplant that needs to be tended
to, right?
We got to stay active in it,especially after that initial
kind of infatuation stage, whereit's off in the beginning.
Now, roll up our sleeves and wegot to, go to work, so to speak.
(36:45):
Yes, people think that initialperiod is for forever and
usually the research shows aboutthree years into the
relationship that infatuationthat it's just a look and it's
on or talking on the phone forhours, like after about three
years that starts to stop.
Stabilize and you're not likehigh, like on a drug.
(37:07):
That's, that's what thatinfatuation period is like has
been compared to being high on,on dopamine.
And so we have to start to seeeach other from, that real, real
view.
but also be committed tonavigating the challenges that
are a natural part ofrelationships.
Yeah, for sure.
(37:27):
Thank you so much for taking thetime to share your insight, your
experience, your wisdom.
I really appreciate it.
And,, obviously, let's stay intouch.
Yes, do it.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, thank you.
Hey everyone.
If this has resonated with you,or if you gotten anything from
the podcast, please give us afive-star rating and share this
(37:48):
with someone who could benefitfrom.
This information
Hey, everyone.
I want to share a conversation Ihad with Dr.
Laura.
A seasoned couples therapist whoshares her insights and
experiences from her 20 yearcareer.
She owns Atlanta couple oftherapy, and she also is a
speaker and an author.
We had a really coolconversation.
She talks about.
her story, why she startedworking with couples.
(00:21):
And she shares very practical.
And actionable advice to have abetter relationship.
Check it out.
But first I'm going to introducethe show.
Welcome everyone.
This is solving disconnectionand creating connected
relationships for couples andparents.
My name is Jason Polk, and I'veworked this exclusively with
couples as a therapist and coachfor over 10 years.
(00:44):
On this podcast, I share myexperience professionally.
Personally and those of ouramazing guests.
Dr.
Laura, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast.
how are things going for you?
Things are going well.
Things are going well.
I really love what I do.
I have a couples retreat comingup and I'm super excited about
(01:05):
that.
So yeah, things are going well.
Yeah, that's great.
And so our listeners know youare a couples therapist in
Atlanta.
Yes, I own a couples therapypractice, Atlanta couple
therapy.
Um, I also have a online academyis called the after I do academy
where every single month a groupof couples are able to get
(01:28):
support and also a vault oftrainings around like intimacy,
communication, rebuilding trust.
And then I also have a bookmarital peace that I wrote.
Okay.
So, you know, a thing or twoabout relationships.
I've been in this field for 20years, so yeah, I love what I
(01:51):
do.
Yeah, well, that's great.
Um, well, so many places tostart, but, you know, of course
I want to ask about the couplesretreat you have coming up, but
before we get into that.
What made you, get into thefield of counseling, therapy,
become a couples therapist and,you know, wherever you'd like to
(02:13):
start, I'd love to hear it.
Um, growing up in my family Isaw a lot of divorce, like
literally everybody in my familydivorced.
Um, parents, my grandparents,aunts, uncles.
And so I was always curiousabout relationships and what it
took to make relationships work,because I would always like
(02:33):
watch television and coupleswould seem very happy.
Like I would watch the Cosbyshow and just always feel so.
interested in like, how, like,how are people having this long
lasting love even as a child, asa small child.
So once I got to college, I knewright away that I was going to
work with couples and study likehealthy relationships.
(02:57):
So when I got to Howarduniversity for my PhD, Like
right away, I was determinedthat I was going to write my
dissertation on,, maritalsatisfaction.
So, yeah, it's been a long timecoming.
And I always say, ever since Iwas a kid, that's when I first
really knew this is the fieldfor me.
(03:18):
Yeah, well, that that's great.
That's great.
I want to say to for ourlisteners, working with couples,
from my perspective, is one ofthe hardest things to do in our
discipline of therapy.
What's your take on that?
I actually like it.
I love it.
I prefer it.
(03:39):
To individual therapy.
I think it's something about thedynamic between couples, seeing
how couples interact, seeingthem go from sitting on opposite
sides of the couch to seeingthem sit a little bit closer, or
seeing one spouse that maybestarted out, like, really angry,
seeing them, like, lean on theirspouse's shoulder, or put their
hand on their, on theirpartner's leg.
(04:00):
Like, I love the interactionpart of it.
Hmm that's great.
Well, I want to ask a verygeneral question.
What moves couples from beingdisconnected, sit on opposite
sides of the couch, to movingcloser to each other, to feeling
more connected?
I know there's so many places togo with that, but what comes to
(04:23):
mind for you?
I like, um, what Sue Johnstoncalls hot cognitions, like what
we, when we're feeling likestrong emotion and the stories
that we, we tell ourselves.
And so I think that as couplesstart to tell themselves a new
story about themselves, theirmarriage, their future.
(04:45):
I think that has the biggestimpact.
And also vulnerability,emotional intimacy, being able
to, to be open, with yourspouse, even when things aren't
going well.
Yeah, my perspective onvulnerability well, if you share
vulnerability, if you're sharingsomething vulnerable, you can
give something for your partnerto connect with.
(05:07):
Also, the practice is creatingemotional intimacy.
And I don't know if you agreewith that or not.
I 100 percent agree with that.
And I think it's so powerful,um, emotional intimacy.
And so usually in my sessionswith, with couples, I'll have
(05:27):
some component where they aren'ttalking directly to me, but
they're talking to each other.
And it's so powerful sometimeswhen they really have that aha
moment where they can see eachother and hear each other.
And sometimes it may besomething that their spouses say
over and over and over and overand over again, but when they're
(05:49):
locking hand to hand and need aknee and, and that heart space
is opened up, like those are themoments when I see such powerful
transformation.
Yeah, that's great.
And can you say a little bitbecause I'm not too familiar
with, um, Sue Johnson's work,but you mentioned the new story.
(06:10):
So her work is calledEmotionally Focused Couples
Therapy.
And within Emotionally FocusedCouples Therapy, there's this
concept called hot cognitions.
And so within hot cognitions,there may be a moment where.
You're asking a couple likewhat, what happened and they are
like, okay, this is whathappened.
(06:31):
And you say, okay, well, how didyou feel about that?
Or what did you think aboutthat?
And they may say, Oh, nothing isfine.
And just like kind of dismisswhat just happened, like the
feeling there.
And then so you're leaning intothat feeling of so nothing, so
you don't, so when we talkabout, um, your spouse.
(06:51):
Cheating on you.
You don't feel anything.
And so it's like leaning moreinto, into what they're saying
when they are just missing thefeeling.
And then helping them to renarrate the story.
So say for example, they standwith, Oh, they cheated, but I'm
over it.
It's fine.
We just need to move on.
(07:13):
Um, and so re narrating thestory is.
Like in this particular case is,is that like, is that right?
That you felt nothing is, andthen them getting to a space
where they can connect, withwhat the feeling is and their
story about that feeling.
So in a way that the feelings,and this is going to sound sort
(07:34):
of silly, also myself being acouple of, therapist, what
you're seeing is feelings arehuge.
Or like a good place to startfor couples.
It's interesting.
I have, I have a few differentviews on that.
I'd love to hear.
So I think that feelings arevery important.
I do think that they areimportant.
I'll start off with that.
(07:55):
And in addition to that, I thinkthat they're not everything.
And I think sometimes we can puttoo much,, Too much emphasis on
how I feel like I feeldepressed.
I don't feel like getting up Idon't feel like getting out of
bed.
So I'm just gonna stay here cuzthis is cuz I feel sad I don't
think we can I don't think weshould give our feelings that
much power at some point we needto think about like, am I living
(08:20):
the life that, that I want tolive?
Or are my feelings running mylife?
So I, I think it's a little bitof gray in there in terms of
feeling.
Yeah.
So maybe in other words.
I'm feeling anxious I don't wantto do the podcast right or i'm
feeling anxious.
I don't want to speak in publicSo i'm just not going to do it
Yes, when maybe yourbreakthrough is on the other
(08:43):
side of facing your fears likethis podcast that you created is
It's so amazing and transforminglives and if the fear or the
anxiety of well What will peoplethink or I don't really feel
like doing if that like tookover everything then?
People's lives wouldn't betransformed in the way that they
are.
Yeah, I got it.
(09:03):
So what about, because thiscomes up a lot, men and feelings
can you talk about it?
But maybe like Morespecifically, at least things
that I see men are notnecessarily encouraged, I think
culturally.
And so that could be like howyou grew up to share feelings.
(09:25):
The idea is kind of like logicis better feelings.
No thanks.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
That's a great question.
You're asking so many goodquestions.
Alright, thanks.
Um, I see it in multiple layers.
So, one, I think you are 100percent correct that society
does not support men inexpressing their feelings and
(09:48):
expressing vulnerability.
It's not.
Considered masculine or sociallyacceptable a lot of times when
we see little boys and they'recrying be a big boy don't cry
and that that affects how menrelate to their feelings and
then some people will tell melike when it comes to couples
counseling usually it's thewoman that is booking the
session with me and then she'llsay oh he don't want to come
(10:11):
here i want to open up all ofthese things but then once They
do get into therapy and we startdoing this deeper work.
I see there are a lot offeelings there.
And sometimes because men maynot express their feelings in
the same way that women do,sometimes those feelings get
dismissed.
Yeah.
(10:32):
Well, how do they, from yourexperience, men do express
feelings?
What are some like common ways?
Sometimes it may look like, it'sstill like sex is just a
checklist to you.
And I think, like for me as acouple of therapists, I'm
looking at the underlyinglogging underneath the
complaint.
(10:52):
So the underlying longing is Iwant to feel desired.
I want to know that you want mejust as much as I want you.
The words are not there, but.
I think listening beyond thesurface,, we can feel that.
So the idea for males, I wouldlike more sex.
And underneath that, it's kindof a longing for their partner,
(11:14):
or they want to feel desired.
Mm hmm.
I got it.
Well, that's interesting, too.
One of my mentors, Terry Real,are you familiar with some of
this stuff?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He talks about us malesculturally acceptable emotions
are anger and lust.
(11:34):
Okay.
And so that kind of puts malesin a box, but it's almost like
the lust or the sex is the onlyoutlet for, emotions.
But what you're saying is ifthey can communicate, I want to
feel desired, gosh,, I really ammissing you.
I'm longing for our connection.
(11:56):
But oftentimes.
And feel free to correct us.
Women hear that it's give mesex.
I want sex.
I'm going to have sex yet.
Um, when, when can we have sex?
Feel free to correct that.
Yeah.
That's when, when a lot of timesit's, it's, it's so much deeper
than that.
A lot of times from my maleclients, a lot of times I'm
(12:17):
hearing a desire to be pleasedand a desire to please, like not
wanting to just like, Oh, checkthe box of happiness.
to know that I did a good job,that you, that you enjoyed this
time of us being together.
I just, the woman just layingthere like, okay, let me know
when you're done, but activelyengaged.
(12:41):
Can you,, just thoughts on Well,this is a common case, but that
is, let's say the male partnerwants more sex,, but the female
partner is like, I only want tohave sex if we're feeling
emotionally connected.
But the male partner is like,well, I feel emotional
connection via sex.
Right.
(13:02):
And then the male partner islike, well, there must be
something wrong with you, um,that you don't desire me
anymore.
How would you help that coupleout?
One of the things that I like todo is called the imago dialogue
in my session.
And in the amogal dialogue, thecouple is facing each other.
It's kind of like activelistening on steroids.
(13:24):
One person is the listener andone person is the speaker.
And the speaker is avoiding allyou statements.
You did this, you did that.
The person's avoiding all ofthat and just focusing in on
what they desire, the meaning ofthat desire to them.
And then their partner is just,Saying like what I'm hearing you
(13:44):
say what what I imagine you meanis this and then them saying yes
Or no this yes, that's right.
That's what I mean or no What Ireally want you to hear is this
and so I think that helps inthat type of dynamic Where they
really need to like empathize orstep into each other's shoes
Even when their perspectives onthe issue is different so what
(14:07):
you're saying in a way to Is thefirst step is to start talking
about it, but in a way where youcan like hear what each other
are saying.
Yes.
And then also validation.
That's the third level of theMago dialogue is having some
part where.
I'll ask the listener, I'll say,is there any part of what he
(14:29):
said that you can validate?
I'm not saying that you have toagree with every single thing
that your spouse said, but isthere any part of what they said
that you can validate?
And in those moments, I oftenfind that they do find a part of
what their spouse said thatresonates with them.
And it's so transformative whenyou can hear your etiquette.
Experience be heard, understood,and validated by your spouse.
(14:54):
And after that, that's when wecan get into problem solving and
to like, okay, well, how can wemake it so that you both are
getting some of what you want?
And it may not be that we'rehaving sex every night, but it's
not that we're having sex once amonth either.
And, and we're also attending toher needs of emotional
validation.
Like she may be needing.
(15:15):
Um, that emotional intimacyright after a fight that's going
to help her open up to beingmore physical with them.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Sometimes, this happens atleast, my experience say,, the
couple has just had kids and thefemale partner is saying, Oh my
(15:38):
gosh, I'm like just touched outor my body has changed.
I don't know if I have aquestion there.
That happens so often after awoman has a baby, her body has
changed.
(15:58):
She is hormonal.
Like she's experiencing thingsthat she never experienced
before.
She may not be feeling asattractive as she once did.
And then also they're notsleeping because the baby's
waking up every two hours.
And so it's a period of justadjusting to what their new
normal looks like.
Yeah, for sure.
(16:19):
What's the best way that a maleCould support their partner
through this, you know, I guesstraditionally female partner
through, Oh my gosh, like thingsare changing.
I have to take care of this kid.
I have, a couple that I wasworking with and I heard it once
said, um, Help is the newforeplay.
(16:42):
And so, and so in some cases,what may help is doing things
for them, taking some of thethings off of, your wife or
partner's plate.
So that she's not feeling sooverburdened with all of taking
care of all of the things andshe has more capacity to be able
(17:05):
to to meet her spouse's needsthat way.
Yeah, yeah, I got it.
That makes sense.
So help is a new foreplay.
I think I'm gonna have to usethat line with certain couples
that I work with.
I like that.
Well, I just curious, why iscommunication tools like the
imago dialogue providingvalidation to each other how
(17:28):
come we don't normally do that?
Like how can we never learnthat, I guess I'm getting like a
bigger picture, right?
But it's like gosh, some ofthose things are so important,
but we never learn that right?
Yeah Communication is such avaluable skill set.
Um, but it's not a lot of spacesthat we are trained in how to
(17:51):
communicate.
I mean, outside of our fieldwhere we're trained to the limit
on communication, I think, andlike the regular lay person
doesn't.
Get a lot of, training on thingslike this.
And so, as a result, sometimeswhat I see in my practice is
that people listen to respond.
Like, as soon as you take abreak, I'm gonna go in.
(18:14):
Like, uh uh, I see that happen.
When couples get into this phaseof negative sentiment override
where they're so upset and angryabout everything that they're
not listening to what theirspouse is saying.
The actual intention.
Yeah.
And so a lot of what you helpcouples with is just slow down
(18:35):
and actually just listen.
That's a big part of the work isslowing down to really take it
fully in and it's hard.
It is not easy.
It is hard for couples becausesometimes I'll see that one
person may be the listener.
Let's say the male is thespeaker and the female is the
listener.
A lot of times what one personmay hear and what the other
(18:59):
person said is totally differentbecause they're filtering it
through their lens.
They're filtering it throughlike things that they may have
argued about before.
And so they're really notlistening.
And so I think that checking into see, did I get that right?
Like, so I'm hearing you saythis.
(19:19):
Did I get that right?
That part is such a crucial stepbecause sometimes it's not, it's
not correct.
Yeah, but even sharing, did Iget that right?
You're communicating that youcare and you're trying to
understand, you know, but likethings we don't learn, right?
(19:41):
Like, where's the class on this?
Yeah, but say, hey, perfect.
That's your work, right?
And you're doing a workshop,right?
I mean, is that some of thethings that you do in your
workshop?
Yeah.
Yes.
And then after I do Academy, Italk about communication a lot
because communication is one ofthe number one reasons why
couples divorce.
It's not money, it's not sex.
(20:01):
Mm-Hmm.
It's not infidelity.
It's, did you hear me?
do you understand what I'msaying?
Is what I'm, does what I'msaying matter to you?
It's, it's the communicationthat in so many marriages.
Yeah.
And in relational life therapymodality, I've been trained in,
as I mentioned his name for likethe third time, uh, Terry says,
(20:24):
and feel free to push back onthis.
It's a generalization.
He says an angry woman is anunheard woman.
Um, but I think there's a lot oftruth there.
And I've said that in sessionsand the female partner was
talking to was like, yep,exactly.
Oh, I gotta write that down.
(20:44):
That was good, Sam.
That was really good.
Yeah, thanks, but it'sessentially like slowing down to
what you're saying incommunication.
Gosh, if we could just slow downand listen to each other, that
could solve, a big percentage.
I think it would solve a lot ofproblems in marriages if we
(21:05):
could slow down, if we couldconnect and listen, free of
distraction, without thetelevision on, without checking
social media every five seconds,just really in tune with each
other.
Yes.
Okay.
You mentioned the negativesentiment override and,, for the
(21:26):
listeners, think John Gottmansaid something like that.
Positive, sentiment, negativesentiment.
But essentially what that is, isthat things have happened.
Ruptures, disagreements, thingsgone unrepaired.
And so it's we have a lens wherewe see our partner in a negative
way.
(21:46):
And that can, I assume,attribute to the lack of
listening, right?
You're saying something to meright now, but I don't care
because I'm viewing you in anegative lens.
I'm waiting for you to stoptalking for me to tell you how
you're wrong.
Yes.
It happens a lot in marriage andunfortunately people wait so
(22:07):
long in that space before everseeking help.
Yeah.
And I don't know if anythingcomes to mind for you, what are
some red flags or warning signsthat you are starting to develop
that negative sentimentoverride?
And then when those red flagscomes up, that means you go to
couple therapy, right?
(22:28):
It means you go see,, Dr.
Laura,, fly to Atlanta, right.
Or go online to your academy,other common, like things that
people can be aware of.
Mhm.
So dr john Gottman, a researcherout of Seattle, he did what's
called longitudinal studies andhe studied couples over years
(22:49):
and in some cases decades tofind what were some of the
predictors of relationshipsbeing able to stand the test of
time.
And he found that there werefour main predictors of
relationships not working out.
And so those four things arecriticism, contempt,
stonewalling, and defensiveness.
These are some of the red flagsthat couples should watch out
(23:11):
for.
Can you share a little bit aboutthat?
Like, criticism, maybe like anexample comes to mind for you?
Sure.
Sure.
So criticism is when you attackthe core of who your your spouse
is.
So it's not that we're talkingabout.
You didn't wash the dishes.
No, you're a lazy person.
Or, it's not that you didn't getme anything for my birthday.
(23:34):
Like you are not thoughtful.
so instead of focusing in on thebehavior attacking who your
partner is either through,, namecalling or cursing or, um, it's
more about, The attack, ontheir, their personal.
I got it.
Yeah.
And so what he would suggest isinstead we state our feelings
(23:55):
using I statements that expressa positive me.
So one of the things I talkabout with my couples is instead
of saying like you're lazysaying, um, when X happened, I
felt why I would like B.
So giving them some recipe forsuccess.
Yeah, so a way to communicatewhat you're feeling without
(24:16):
putting your partner down.
Yes.
Okay.
And so if you do find yourselfcriticizing your partner, that
may be a sign that things aregoing in the wrong direction.
It's not the worst of them, butit is a big one.
Yeah.
Like contempt is probably not agood one, right?
Consent is the worst one, um,one of the biggest predictors
(24:39):
of, relationships ending, notworking out, divorce, and so
consent is, sometimes consentcan be in your body language,
like, this again, that'sconsent, hostile humor, sarcasm,
all of that is, um, It'scontempt.
And also there's been studiesthat have shown that people
(24:59):
don't live as long when they'reliving with someone that holds
contempt for them.
So it shortens your lifespan.
Yeah.
How do you work with someonewho's like, Well, yeah, of
course, I'm angry at them.
I have content from because theydon't do XYZ.
They deserve it.
I would say, but do you deserveit?
(25:23):
Because unforgiveness is likedrinking poison and expecting
the other person to die.
Like, how is this negativityimpacting you, your immune
system, your cardiovascularsystem?
Nice.
And so what you're saying, maybeit's not that they don't deserve
for you to be upset with them.
You deserve better by not, Ibeing contemptuous to them.
(25:49):
Drinking the poison and helpingthem to see how poisonous it can
be.
Yeah, totally.
When you're saying it shortenslifespan, And I think also
couples have to consider all ofthe other elements of their life
because Yes, your marriage isvery important.
(26:09):
And we have to take that intoaccount, but you also have
little people around you that'slooking to you to determine what
marriage looks like, what lovelooks like, and let's give them
an amazing example.
And so it's your kids, it's yourfamily, it's also your work.
Like, when you think about howis this impacting me, like being
(26:30):
negative all the time?
Like, am I able to show up fullyand focus and be productive if
my heart is filled with all thisnegativity?
I imagine not.
Yeah, totally.
And also, you're less likely toget what you want, right?
If you're expressing contempt,you know, we haven't talked
about growing up, but youmentioned it.
(26:51):
I do a lot of work with aroundfamily of origin.
Typically when I see a couple ofthe first session is with them
together, looking at theirrelationship history.
And then session two and sessionthree is individual sessions
where we're looking at, atfamily of origin.
How was love expressed in yourhome?
Like between your parents, butalso towards you, how was
(27:14):
anxiety, and sadness dealt with,how did you see conflict be
resolved?
So I do a lot of, earlychildhood exploration and.
In those first two sessionssession two and session three.
Yeah, I got it.
And can you say something aboutgoing back to the signs?
Of oh my gosh, maybe we shoulddo couples therapy.
(27:36):
Can you talk about stonewalling?
Sure, so stonewall I typicallysee more men stonewalling than
women um Some gender differenceswith um stonewalling dr.
John Gottman calls,, thispattern,, a demand withdrawal
pattern, where the more oneperson is demanding, let's talk
(27:56):
about this, we need to finishthis conversation, the more the
other person withdraws.
And stonewalling can happenthrough an emotional withdrawal,
and you know your spouse isemotionally withdrawn when you
ask, how are you doing?
Fine.
How was your day?
Fine.
Okay.
So all one word answers.
they're physically present.
They're showing up to dinnerevery night, but emotionally
(28:17):
they are completely checked outof the relationship.
That's an example ofstonewalling, but sometimes
people physically stonewallwhere they I'm done with this
conversation.
I'm out of here and walk out theroom.
Those are some examples ofstonewalling.
Yeah, I got it.
And for certain partners, whenyou walk away, Things don't go
(28:37):
well.
They follow you.
I've seen it and I know you'veseen it too.
I'm done with this conversation.
No, you're not done.
I need to walk away.
Don't you dare walk away.
Right.
And it's continuing that patternand it's not good.
Right.
One of the things I talk aboutin the after I do Academy is I
(28:59):
tell couples how to take a breakbecause there are times when the
conversation has gotten toointense where all problem
solving has gone out the window.
And that's when we tend to saythings that we don't mean or it
doesn't come out the right way.
So there are times when we, weneed to take a break.
Not to keep mentioning Dr.
Gabbin, but he is a guru in thecouples therapy space.
(29:21):
One of the things that he saysis, once our heart rate gets
above 100 beats per minute,that's when we really should
take a break.
And so I tell couples that Likeit's okay to take a break.
You just have to be mindful.
How so as like, I'm feelingflooded right now, or I'm having
a difficult time listening, isit okay if we take a break?
(29:43):
And then I instruct the spouse.
I, if you don't take a break,that's when things tend to go
left.
So I'm going to encourage youwhen things get to that level.
Allow your spouse to take abreak.
I just want you to set a time ofwhen you're gonna come back.
Whoever's the partner that isflooding and initiating the
break, I encourage that to bethe spouse that initiates coming
back.
So the other spouse isn't justlike, well, when can we talk
(30:06):
again?
Or, issues don't get piled up.
Yeah.
So that's how I recommend takingbreaks.
Yeah, I just want to comment onthat.
I think it's so important forcouples to take breaks when
you're flooded, right?
When you're seeing red, becauseif you interact, like you said,
in that state of mind,everything you say or do, you're
(30:28):
going to have to apologize forlater.
Exactly what you said.
And so to have that agreementthat we're going to take a
break, but also build in thereis space to come back.
Typically, I would say 20minutes to two hours have the
break and during the break, Iencourage couples to do
something soothing.
Um, not get on the phone andtalk all about what just
(30:49):
happened, but just do somethingthat like, watch the comedy
show, go for a walk, practicemeditation, like something that
is an effective coping strategy.
And then once they come backtogether,, they're usually able
to talk then, and I'll encouragethem to own their part of it.
Cause It's usually some partthat a person plays and that may
(31:11):
not be that you're 100 percentresponsible for every problem in
the relationship.
But it may be I can come backand I can say, well, you know, I
probably shouldn't haveapproached you that way.
Or I probably could have talkedto you more calmly.
So just like owning their part.
Yeah, I think that's greatbecause if you do slow down and
(31:31):
you think about what is my partin this, it can provide that
humility.
Which is needed because we, wehave to come down, right?
You're not better, right?
I know you think, oh my God,like, if only they would do this
and you wouldn't be arguing,right?
I know that's what you'rethinking, but, you know, to come
(31:53):
down.
Okay.
What is my part in that?
And,, I think the more you cando that, that sort of
accountability, they can startto create more of that kind of
trust, right?
I don't focus too much on theself soothing during timeouts,
but I need to, I think that'sgreat.
And also think about what isyour part so you can come back
(32:14):
with some humility to repairrepair.
I look at it, you're givingsomething for your partner to
connect with, right?
We can't connect with criticism,you know, I did this, um,
because you're such an a-hole.
right, right.
Oh yes.
You're so that's what instead,come here, come here.
(32:36):
Let's fix it.
But yeah, so sometimes.
The defensiveness comes up ofwhy I wouldn't do this if you
didn't do that.
And so that's when I reallyencourage like just, you know,
taking accountability, which isnot always easy for couples.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, it is not always easybecause again, you have to
(32:59):
recognize my part yeah, and thenif they're therapists, I'm
celebrating it when they takeaccountability.
Oh my God, I'm through the moon.
I'm like, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, let me share too.
My take as a couple oftherapists is for the listeners.
When couples share likeaccountability, be like, Hey, I
know I'm not always perfect oreven small things like that.
(33:21):
It's a really good sign.
And it's kind of a brush offresh air too.
It's like, all right, you toocan have some ownership of how
you're challenging, right?
Yes.
Because we're all, Stan Tackettsays, we're all a pain in the
ass.
Right?
And we have to kind of like ownthat.
Anyway, I know you are anamazing couple's therapist.
(33:45):
I like to it's probably similarto you like just keep it real
with my clients becausesometimes our clients can look
to us like we're perfect andhave it all together.
And I'm like, no, no, absolutelynot.
Just like you said, we're allpain in the ass at some point.
Yeah, we're all the pain.
Yes.
Right.
Um, well, a hundred percent.
(34:08):
likewise,, Dr.
Laura, it sounds like you'redoing some great stuff, online
academy, your book, working withcouples, but, I know we're
coming up on time.
Anything else that you wouldlike to share, or would you like
to, share more about what yougot going on?
Sure.
I just want to encourage couplesout there to, keep going, keep
striving,, even when it'schallenging.
(34:30):
I remember like a few years ago,I had, um, surgery.
I had, um, a fibroid that needsto be removed and it was kind of
scary because they had, when, Idon't know if you've ever had
surgery, but when you havesurgery, they go through all
these questions of, what do Ido?
Well, what do you want to happenif you don't wake up?
And I'm basically the reality oflike, what, I thought this was
just the outpatient procedure.
(34:51):
And I remember my mom beingthere and she got me this plan
and I adore my mom.
Like we're really close.
She's a therapist too.
And so when I look at the plan,this was like a few months
later, after my surgery, theplant has started.
The wither and I was like, Ohman, I could keep my plan alive.
And when I thought about it, Ihad not been watering it.
(35:14):
And so I just encourage all thecouples out there to look at
your marriage as though it is aplant that needs tending to
that's that needs watering.
Um, And then just a little bitabout, like, if there's any
couples out there who would liketo work together, um, the After
I Do Academy, that is somethingwhere I'm able to, like, work
(35:37):
with you and give you support interms of, like, how you can
navigate some of these conflictsthat, that come up in marriage.
That's a resource.
And also my book, Marital Peace,I've done over a thousand
speaking engagements.
So whenever I get asked aquestion more than one, I'm
like, okay, why don't I,, recordsomething on that topic?
(35:57):
So it either go in the, after Ido academy or like in, in the
book marital peace, I basicallytook all of the challenges that
I was seeing in my work in termsof challenges that couples were
having and put a chapter in, inthe book on how couples can
reconcile those things.
So, yeah, very cool.
Well, that's awesome.
So the real couple's experienceand how to handle that.
(36:21):
But I agree 100%, right?
Again, another quote, my mentor,intimacy is not something you
have, it's something you do.
And it's kind of like, it's aplant that needs to be tended
to, right?
We got to stay active in it,especially after that initial
kind of infatuation stage, whereit's off in the beginning.
Now, roll up our sleeves and wegot to, go to work, so to speak.
(36:45):
Yes, people think that initialperiod is for forever and
usually the research shows aboutthree years into the
relationship that infatuationthat it's just a look and it's
on or talking on the phone forhours, like after about three
years that starts to stop.
Stabilize and you're not likehigh, like on a drug.
(37:07):
That's, that's what thatinfatuation period is like has
been compared to being high on,on dopamine.
And so we have to start to seeeach other from, that real, real
view.
but also be committed tonavigating the challenges that
are a natural part ofrelationships.
Yeah, for sure.
(37:27):
Thank you so much for taking thetime to share your insight, your
experience, your wisdom.
I really appreciate it.
And,, obviously, let's stay intouch.
Yes, do it.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, thank you.
Hey everyone.
If this has resonated with you,or if you gotten anything from
the podcast, please give us afive-star rating and share this
(37:48):
with someone who could benefitfrom.
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