July 7, 2025 • 34 mins
Jason Polk, a seasoned therapist specializing in couples therapy, hosts Brandon Schwartz, LCSW, from Colorado Relationship Recovery on the podcast.
Brandon shares his journey of becoming a therapist, influenced by overcoming bullying, depression, and a transformative experience with his own therapist in middle school.
He discusses his educational path, shifting from a desire to join the Marines to pursuing psychology, eventually finding his passion in couples therapy.
The conversation touches on the modalities of Relational Life Therapy (RLT) and its differences from other therapies, the concept of grandiosity and narcissism in relationships, and the profound impact therapy can have on personal and relational growth.
Brandon emphasizes the importance of empathy, accountability, and differentiation in therapy, explaining why he finds his work both revolutionary and rewarding.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:09 Brandon's Journey to Becoming a Therapist
02:47 High School and College Experiences
04:04 Choosing Marriage and Family Therapy
05:36 Impactful Therapy Experience
09:02 Relational Life Therapy (RLT) and Couples Work
13:57 First and Second Order Change in Therapy
15:34 Family Influence and Accountability
18:28 Understanding Human Behavior in Therapy
19:20 The Importance of Self-Realization
20:22 Personal Wake-Up Calls
22:21 The Role of Direct Feedback
25:31 Defining Narcissism in Therapy
31:51 The Revolutionary Impact of Couples Therapy
To learn more about Brandon and work with him, visit his About page.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome everyone.
This is solving disconnectionand creating connected
relationships for couples andparents.
My name is Jason Polk, and I'veworked this exclusively with
couples as a therapist and coachfor over 10 years.
On this podcast, I share myexperience professionally.
Personally and those of ouramazing guests.
Brandon, thank you for being onthe podcast.
(00:23):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Yeah, we're looking forward toit.
Yeah, me too.
And Brandon, you are a therapistat Colorado Relationship
Recovery.
Our practice, I would saysuperstar therapist., I try all
star team therapist.
So, the listeners know, and Iwanted to have you on just to
(00:44):
have you share a little bit ofyour experience being a
therapist, a little bit aboutRLT, the modality you use with
couples, also known asrelational life therapy.
And also a little bit about, um,narcissism.
'cause I know you have someexperience and specialized
training in that, so.
(01:06):
Sound good?
Sounds good to me.
All right.
Well, Brandon, starting off,what made you become a, a
therapist?
That's a good question., I feellike it was kind of a lot of
things., When I was in middleschool, I experienced a lot of
bullying and it really justcreated a lot of depression, a
lot of self-doubt, a lot ofself-esteem issues and.
(01:28):
To the extreme of creating somesort of some suicidal ideation.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so, and alsoself-harming.
And so when my parents noticed Iwas self-harming, they got me a
therapist.
Mm-hmm., And I worked with herfor, I wanna say about a year
and a half.
And it was one of the mostlife-changing experiences I've
(01:48):
had.
Like, it just opened up myworld.
It allowed me to feel morecomfortable in my skin and who I
was, and just.
Just felt more able to be me andsafe to be me, if that makes
sense., And so because of thatexperience and, and just the
tremendous impact that she hadand really helping me do that
work to help heal myself itreally motivated me to want to
(02:12):
do the same.
And also too, my grandfather, hewas a marriage and family
therapist.
Um, and so it's, I feel likeit's kind of just been in my
blood.
Like he always said, whenever,when I was a kid, little, little
kid all the way up until evennow, um, he always notices that
I'm just observing and watching.
And he always thought that thatwas just something that almost
(02:32):
would just be like this naturalskill that would really serve me
well in.
My work as a therapist and inbeing a therapist, and so I just
kind of fell into it and justreally fell in love with it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Very cool.
Well, and just curious, so yourjourney, it was high school and
then in undergrad, did you havethe idea gonna be a therapist?
(02:55):
Like did you do like psychologyor something?
Just curious.
Yeah.
Um, I took my first psychologyclass in high school as like an
elective.
And it blew my mind.
Like, uh, prior to high school,I, I really thought I wanted to
join the Marines.
I don't know why, but I reallywanted to join the Marines.
But then after that psychologycourse, like it, everything just
(03:15):
seemed to click and it just alljust made so, so much sense to
me and it just, it just flowedso naturally.
And I, I just fell in love withit right then and there.
And so when I got intoundergrad, I had two thoughts in
my mind.
Maybe I'll be an English teacherfor high school, or maybe a
psychologist or therapist.
And then I changed my major toEnglish, and then as soon as I
(03:36):
changed it, like I, I justdidn't feel right.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so then the next day Iwent and changed my major to
psychology.
And I just felt, I felt okay.
Like it just felt like a weightwas lifted off of me.
It felt like.
I was there doing what I wassupposed to be doing.
And so because of that, justfeeling that I got from it I
felt like this is where I needto be and, and what I need to
(03:58):
do.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I love it.
Yeah.
Very cool.
That's amazing.
And with that, you went to amarriage and family graduate
program., Was it your grandpa'sinfluence is why you picked
that?
Just curious about why.
Why the hell would you wannawork with couples and families?
(04:19):
Yeah.
I mean, initially, like I reallyhad no idea that couples or
families was where I was gonnago.
Okay.
And so when I was in my graduateprogram for social work, the
first year I was in aninternship at a school.
I working in the high schoollevel and elementary level, and
just my supervisor.
She was an alumni of theMarriage and Family Therapy
(04:40):
training program that I went to.
And just because of oursupervision just the way she saw
my mind working when I wasworking with students and the
work that I wanted to do withthem, she really, really thought
like I had just had a clinicalorientation and she really
suggested like going into DenverFamily Institute and having that
(05:01):
be my internship because shejust really thought that.
My clinical mindset, theanalytical mindset that I have
would just really, really servewell in the work with
individuals or families andcouples in therapy.
Yeah.
And so I went and applied forthat and I made it and got it
in.
And then my first year was justworking with individuals and
(05:22):
families.
And then my second year was withcouples and.
I immediately fell in love withworking with couples.
Like the first couple I workedwith.
It just like, it just feltnatural.
Mm-hmm.
And I just loved it.
Very cool.
Well, I want to get a little bitmore into couples therapy, but
before there, and obviously feelfree to pass Brandon, you know,
(05:44):
going back your time with thetherapist, you mentioned the
middle school bullying.
What about, the therapist?
Your work with her was sohelpful.
If you feel comfortable sharing.
That's a really good question.
The one thing that I really,really remember her kinda giving
(06:06):
to me as like a homeworkassignment or a therapy
assignment mm-hmm.
Was to create my own list ofkind of rules, values that I
kind of wanted to live my lifeaccording to.
Rather than all the shoulds thatI thought I had to live up to.
And I remember it was like thisthree page long list and she had
(06:28):
me put it on my wall in mybedroom, and every single day
when I woke up, I would justread through this list.
Mm-hmm.
Almost kind of likeaffirmations, but not really.
Yeah.
Um, and it just allowed me tojust, I don't know, feel more
connected with me and just feel.
More comfortable living in myown skin in the way I wanted to
(06:49):
live, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and so that just had thisreally profound impact of, it
doesn't matter if like in asense of whatever they think,
whatever anybody else says.
So long as I'm okay with mytruth and who I am, that's fine
in the sense of kind of thinkingand as it relates to RLT, it's
(07:11):
kind of like our psychologicalboundaries of the internal and.
Our internal boundaries of ourprotective and our containing.
Mm-hmm.
And so it really kind of really,I, I will, I will say, kind of
strengthened that protectiveboundary that I had.
Mm-hmm.
So it allowed me to just kind ofmove through life and be okay
with me, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
(07:31):
Yeah.
That's great.
Well, I'm, I'm so glad that youhad that experience with your
therapist.
Just curious, does she know thatyou're a therapist?
She doesn't the, it's horrible.
I actually forgot her name.
Yeah.
And I've, I've been trying tofigure out where her name is so
I could reach out to her and lether know.
Very cool.
But very cool nevertheless, Imean, the fact you got that
guidance that support from her,the perspective, the tools, I
(07:54):
think it's so important.
You know, just generally.
I know you were younger then,but just males in therapy, I
feel like often males, becauseof stigma we miss out on getting
the benefits of doing individualtherapy and so I think that is
great.
And you know, looking back onit, although you didn't ask, I'm
(08:16):
gonna make it about myself, inhigh school.
It was a particularly tough timefor me.
You know, there was, I, I had anidentity CRI crisis.
I played football.
I think I was good at it, but Iwasn't a football player.
I was like a stoner dude, punkrock dude, and subject to some
bullying and what I did, I justgot drunk and high, right?
(08:37):
Those are my coping tools andlooking back on it as a
therapist now.
Damn.
I could have used some of thathelp.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And they're great ways ofescaping, that's for sure.
Totally.
Quick and easy.
And then I found the niche ofpeople, we were like the stoner
jock dudes.
Right.
But, um, going back to couplestherapy.
(09:02):
And you mentioned trained inrelational life therapy.
I wanted you to talk about whatyou enjoy about couples and also
about RLT.
So choose your own adventure.
Yeah, i'll start with, couples.
So I mean.
And that's a really goodquestion.
'cause, like my first thoughtis, I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
But then my second thought isevery single day and every
(09:27):
single session, even withcouples who I've met for three
months, or longer, like eachsession,, it's always different.
Mm-hmm.
And I just love how it's alwaysdifferent.
It's always changing, it'salways moving.
And even if it isn't different.
It, there's always just manydifferent directions to go.
Like, one thing I always like tosay with all couples or all
(09:49):
clients really is it's allconnected.
It really all is.
And so in the sense of itdoesn't really matter what
direction we go in the sessionbecause it's, it's connected in
the sense that it's gonna go towhere we need to go in the sense
of just trusting the process.
And I just really love doingthat with not just, well, I do
(10:10):
love individual therapy, but Ialso really love doing it with
two other people in the roomtoo.
Yeah.
So very cool and so it'sdifferent.
And trusting the process and itsounds like you use a lot of
your therapeutic intuition, justas guidance if that's fair.
Yeah.
I mean the one, one lesson thatI got from my undergraduate
(10:32):
career is from this onepsychology professor of when
you're doing the work intherapy.
If you're operating from yourhead, you're doing it wrong.
Oh, and she said, in therapy, ifyou're a great therapist or
great therapists operate andshow up from their heart.
And it's in the sense of kind ofboth.
And not just that heart, butalso like both.
(10:53):
And and when you show up with aheart, like in sessions.
It is such a different feeling,like the world just fades away
and it's just you and thecouple.
And that is just really kind ofone of the ways that I like to
show up with couples, if thatmakes sense.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
So in a way, and feel free,maybe I'm going too far.
(11:16):
It is almost like.
A spiritual practice, but you'regetting paid for it.
I don't know if that resonates.
Yeah, I mean like one of part ofthe reason why I love RLT.
Yeah.
And Terry Real, not just'causehe is Jewish, but yeah, I have
like that connection with him.
Yeah.
Because I'm Jewish as well and Iforget where he was talking
about it.
He was asked a question and whathe answered is there's like this
(11:40):
Jewish saying of, um, it's in asense of like God working
through you.
And sometimes in sessions likewhen I'm working with couples,
I'll have like this thought orthis idea that just comes in and
I go with it and I don't knowwhere the heck it came from.
I don't know how the heck I gotit, but it just shows up and it
comes in and it's almost like,like Yahweh working through me
(12:03):
or like God working through me.
And the sense of like, yeah, itis almost like a spiritual
practice.
Yeah.
Very cool wow.
Amazing.
So the listeners know TerryReal, who you mentioned is both
of our mentor and he createdrelational life therapy that
we're both trained in, alsoknown as RLT.
(12:24):
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat modality?
Yeah.
So, the typical spiel I giveYeah.
It's a lot different than othercouples therapy.
Um, like different than EFT,different than Gottman in that
when I work with couples,there's not just one problem,
but two problems in the room.
In the sense that more oftenthan not, not all problems are
(12:44):
50 50.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes they are, but notalways.
Sometimes they're 70 30,sometimes 60 40, sometimes even
99 1.
Um, and so in a sense, the waysin which RLT are really, really
different is that when I'mworking with a couple, I don't
beat around the bush.
Um, I don't like to beat aroundthe bush.
I don't think it does any goodto help them be where, where
they're wanting to be.
(13:06):
Um, and so to be blunt andexplicit with it, it's in a
sense naming those hard truthswith each partner in the sense
of how they are showing up inthe relationship in ways that
are getting in their own way orblowing off their own foot.
And so.
That's kind of the ways in whichit's different.
And also too, it's a higherlevel change in the sense of
(13:27):
like, not just first orderchange, but second order change,
in the sense of really kind ofdiscrepancies and really being
able to kinda hold like theboth.
Prior experiences that arereally informing how we're
showing up in the moment and thepresent moment and kind of
differentiating between the,that was the past and these are
(13:47):
familiar feelings, but this isnow and this is different.
So I don't know if that makessense.
Hopefully that's, but yeah.
Yeah.
That's how.
RLT is a bit different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
What, and can you say a littlebit more about first order
change?
Second order change?
Yeah.
So the first order change is inthe sense of like if I were to
(14:07):
give a client or partnersomething for them to do within
the relationship to change howthey're showing up.
And then the second orderchanges more so kind of.
Something that they can do thatwill create change or inform
change within the system.
So it's not just in a sense,that individual, but informing
(14:28):
the system changing.
Yeah.
So that's kind of where thehigher level changes, if that
makes sense.
Oh yeah, totally.
So in a way.
I am not a helpless victim in myrelationship.
I can do something about it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's, and it's in a sense ofgetting really intentional and
really like becoming the creatorof your own relationship in your
(14:51):
own world and your own life.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not necessarily to theextent of like controlling'cause
that is a losing strategy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's more so in a sense ofyour own locus of control.
Mm-hmm.
Not necessarily.
Controlling everything outsideof that, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you feel, maybe this is adeeper question.
(15:12):
The idea of having the locus ofcontrol and being aware that I
can do something about itinstead of just blaming my
partner, is that a developmentalthing or maturity?
I don't know where I'm goingwith that, but it seems like
that is harder for some peoplethan others.
I don't know if you've foundthat too.
(15:33):
Yeah.
And part of me, like I kind ofgo to, in a sense like family of
origin experiences.
Mm-hmm.
In the sense of, it makes methink of, um, a story Terry real
tales of how when he would gethome from school, his dad just
was unpredictable.
He didn't know how his dad wouldbe, how his dad would act.
(15:53):
And one day he was coming homewith a report card, and I think
he was in like fourth grade ormaybe in middle school.
And he had all Ds on the reportcard.
And he was petrified of like howhis dad is gonna react when he
sees it.
Dad came home, he shows dad thereport card and his dad looks at
the report card and just says,oh, those dumb ass teachers
don't know how to teach you atall.
(16:14):
Mm-hmm.
It's nothing wrong with you.
It's because of those teachersYeah.
Who don't know how to teach myson who's a genius.
Yeah.
And so then that sent kind ofthis unspoken, subtle message
of.
It is okay.
It's not you.
It's them.
Yeah.
That you're all good.
You're fine.
You're perfect.
It's them.
(16:35):
And so when Terry then grew upas he was kind of going through
school, he just had D's, F'sthroughout high school,
throughout college, just becauseof the sense of.
That message that his dad senthim of, it's not you, it's these
other people.
Yeah.
You are a genius.
You know what you need to do.
It's them.
(16:55):
And so in a sense, it's kind ofthose unspoken and spoken
messages that we receive whenwe're kids that really can
inform how we're gonna show upas an adult in the sense of
blame and kind of how we castblame.
Mm-hmm.
And taking accountability.
Yeah, for sure.
And I know you're not Terry, andI've definitely heard that story
(17:19):
before.
How did he learn accountability?
If you were to guess?
Like if we were to likepsychoanalyze Terry, and I'm
thinking of it myself too.
I'm going on a side note like Igrew up.
Where my dad was prettyjudgmental in general of us at
times, but also of my mom.
(17:41):
And so how do you think I canshow up sometimes towards Jess,
my wife?
Judgmental.
In a way it was modeled and Itry to be aware and maybe I'm
answering myself, just present.
Well, first I need to knowthat's an issue.
Right.
And I think that one of the big,one of the benefits of couples
(18:03):
therapy, Hey, this is an issue,what you're doing to have that
awareness and then having thedesire to do something about it.
But what I do simply is try tobe mindful.
So that's one way.
How do you think Terry, or howdo you coach people to do
something different to justblame other people.
Yeah.
I mean, it makes me think of,the idea of leverage within
(18:27):
couples therapy.
Yeah.
In the sense of just humanbeings, just living creatures in
general.
We move away towards pain, movetowards things that feel good,
pleasure, um, and in the senseof.
In couples therapy when I'mworking with a couple, like when
we are joining through the truthand like the first couple of
phases of therapy or the firstcouple of sessions, it's me in a
(18:50):
sense kind of holding up themirror to a client.
And so as I'm thinking about it.
And also too, and taking intoaccount what you were saying in
the sense of like being able tojust be aware of it.
Mm-hmm.
In the sense of like that it isa problem.
Is like in a sense, I think thefirst step.
Yeah.
Because I always like to say tocouples like, when you see it,
you can then have choice, andthen when you have choice, you
(19:13):
can then do something different.
Yes.
And so.
From my perspective, I, I don'tknow.
I could be completely wrong.
Yeah.
Because I don't know what wasgoing on in Terry's world when
it was happening, but I mean, Iimagine if it was me, I'd be
looking at my grades being like,what the hell is wrong?, And
really, really struggling andwanting to be doing better, and
really realizing that the onlyway that I can do better is if I
(19:36):
actually decide to put in thatwork and that effort in it
myself.
Yeah.
And I think being able to seethat first of.
Oh, I'm not doing the work, somakes sense then why I'm not
having all these good gradesthat I won't get or that I want.
Mm-hmm.
I think that's like the firststep, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I think hopefully maybethat was where Terry first was
(19:57):
able to notice it and then whenhe noticed it, then he made that
decision of, this isn't what Iwant to be doing.
Yeah, for sure.
Like there, this is notcongruent with who I am.
This is not what I want to bedoing and society.
Will give you that feedback.
Right.
What you're doing, blaming otherpeople is not working.
(20:20):
Yeah, generally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let me share.
One of my kind of like wake upcalls, I was at Metro State and
I was deep into cocaine,partying, going to punk rock
shows.
I'm doing a reminiscent, it wasthe house where we lived at was
like a block away from the AlonTheater, which is totally
(20:43):
different, but they'd alwayshave like punk shows there Big
picture was kind of a good timetill it wasn't right.
Uh, at Metro State, the dude'slike.
I was on academic probation andhe said, Jason, what the hell
are you doing here?
Mm-hmm.
Right?
If you don't get your grades up,you can't stay here.
And I'm like, this is MetroState, man.
(21:04):
Like this was back in the day,but this was my second school.
And so finally I had to look inthe mirror, right?
And realize, Hey, my dad's notgonna get me out of this one,
right?
Mm-hmm.
But it's almost like you needthat.
You know, outside, I don't knowwhat's the right word?
(21:25):
Um, teaching, being like, youcan't just fuck around and like
hope things are gonna be okay.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm, I consider myself kindof lucky in that I had that
experience in my freshman yearin high school.
Because like, I had all Fswasn't doing well at all.
And then I had a counselor whowas the most amazing counselor I
(21:47):
believe.
Ever.
Yeah.
In the world.
And she put me in this program,it was called Sophomore
Enrichment Seminar.
Okay.
And in that program, it really,really got me into the mindset
of like, this is my life.
And in a sense of if I want todo well, then it's up to me to
do the work.
To do well.
Mm-hmm.
(22:07):
And I can't just sit here and donothing and then hope that,
yeah, I'm gonna get an A.
And so that was in a sense, mymoment for me to really see what
I was doing and then have achoice of doing something
different.
Great.
Well, this ties into the ideaof, of being direct.
You mentioned joining throughthe truth, and just to kind of
(22:29):
piggyback on what you said,joining through the truth is
telling someone.
The truth of the behavior thatmight be getting in the way of
what they want, but we're doingit in a way that conveys, I'm on
your side.
Mm-hmm.
But this is very importantbecause I think that it's not,
you know, we can say careconfrontation, right?
(22:49):
But we need that feedback thatthis is not working and in a
fact it's a gift.
Oh yeah.
Right.
And then, so I need thatfeedback even for my wife,
Jason.
I don't like your judgment.
Right.
Or I need, my feedback from mytherapist.
Yeah.
Jason, this is a small fuckingproblem in the big scheme of
(23:11):
things, right?
This was actually a conversationyesterday with my therapist,
right.
But it was in a loving way,right?
But sometimes we need thatfeedback because I think we
sometimes, some of us, includingmyself, a tendency to avoid.
But being direct can actually bea gift.
I don't know if you hadpiggyback on that or Oh, yeah.
(23:32):
Thoughts.
Oh, I mean, it really can likeit stings.
Mm-hmm.
But I mean, it can be a gift.
Yeah.
'cause in the sense of, like,one thing I always tell couples
is as their therapist.
I stand between the things thatthey want in their relationship
and the things that they don'twant in their relationship.
Yeah.
And it's up to them to decidewhich direction we go through
(23:53):
the work that they do.
Mm-hmm.
Or if they do any work.
Yeah.
And so in the sense that.
When I am letting a client knowlike, Hey, there is a part of
you that is showing up in a waywhere you're acting like a
constipated rager.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
For that client, it's gonnasting to hear.
But also to know like, oh shootI'm being a constipated rager.
(24:16):
Yeah.
Like, who wants to be aconstipated rager?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that stings, that sucks.
And so, okay, what do you wantto do about it?
Yeah.
Do you want to work with me tofigure out a way for you to
stand up for yourself in a waythat's gonna not harm all of
those around you and yourself?
Or do you wanna keep doing whatit is that you're doing?
Great.
(24:37):
So it's kind of like an, anoption, right?
Yeah.
Like I, I like to put it on theclient.
'cause at the end of the day,it's, it's their life.
It's, it's not mine.
Very cool.
Side note, what is yourdefinition of constipated rager?
Just curious.
Um so it's in a sense of, I liketo describe it as, a subtle
(24:58):
retaliation or,, a kind ofcovert retaliation in the sense
of like, it's passiveaggression.
Terry describes it as like, it'swar.
So it can show up in the senseof like, well, I'm not gonna
give to you because you didn'tgive to me, or, well, you were
really mean to me and made mefeel this way, so I'm gonna try
and show up in a way that'sgonna make you feel the same way
that I felt so that you canunderstand how you made me feel.
(25:19):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and.
It never works, ever.
Mm-hmm.
It's only gonna create more, uh,it just goes up and up and up
and up and it never ends.
I got it.
Well, can you say a little bitabout narcissism?
Yeah.
You know, whichever directionyou want to go with that.
(25:40):
Like it shows up in arelationship or just kind of how
you view it.
Hopefully it's the right way ofviewing it, but, um, I really
think in terms of when I'msitting across from a client,
like for example, when I'mworking with a couple around
infidelity for our betrayingpartner or I mean our involved
partner for them, the questionisn't necessarily why you did
(26:04):
it, but it's more so.
What held you back from the No.
Or did you forget about the No.
What held you back from sayingno?
Did you not remember It?
Were, did you not care?
Did you feel like you wereentitled to it?
And more often than not, thewhole reason why I go into that
with couples around infidelityis in a sense for that involved
(26:26):
partner to express.
Guilt to express, remorse toexpress the pain and the fact
that they're seeing the pain andthe hurt that they put onto
their partner.
And when I hear clients do that,or if it's in clients or with
couples around infidelity or notaround infidelity, regardless
when there is that remorse, theguilt for how your behavior
(26:50):
impacted those around you.
The thing that I like to tell myclients is good.
Mm-hmm.
It should.
Yeah.
It should hurt.
Yeah.
Because the things that we do,at the end of the day, yeah, we
can't make anybody feelanything, but at the end of the
day, it is gonna have an impact.
And if the things that I'm doingare hurting this other person,
(27:14):
if I'm caring about the factthat my behaviors and my actions
hurt this other person.
Then at the end of the day, Ican say that that person more
likely than not, probably is nota narcissist.
Mm-hmm.
Because real narcissists whoI've sat across from sociopath,
psychopaths, they don't give ashit.
Yeah.
Like, they just don't give ashit.
(27:34):
Yeah.
And so that's almost like thatone defining feature I'll say.
Got it.
Of narcissism.
Got it.
And there's all different kindsof narcissism.
Um, like I really say it's.
It's become a buzzword at thispoint.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so the idea ofnarcissism has kind of gotten a
bit muddied, I'll say in likekind of pop culture, but, in
(27:54):
mental health in a sense.
That's where I kind of.
Go, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
So kind of like what is theempathy, is there the remorse
for how they show up and howtheir behaviors impact those
around them?
Yeah.
And if there is, awesome.
And then if not, then there's agood chance I might be dealing
with some sort of type of yeah.
If that makes sense.
I got it.
(28:14):
Type of it.
Do you feel that someone who maybe describing what you're seeing
lacked the empathyaccountability?
Do you feel that you can teachthat?
If someone can learn that, Ithink Remedially you can.
In a sense, I know that that is,it's kind of the work when
working with individuals whohave a type of narcissism is
(28:36):
really, really working with themon being aware of how their
behaviors do impact those aroundthem.
And in a sense of installing theprogramming for remedial empathy
in the sense of kind of thinkingin terms of like putting myself
in the other person's shoes.
I got it.
And so you feel that can beinstalled and practiced?
(28:59):
I believe it can.
I will say, there may be almosta,.
Maybe a limit to it, I wouldsay.
Yeah, I, I'm gonna say like alimit to it, if that makes
sense.
Yeah, yeah.
I got it.
And I know we talked, have youseen the Sopranos?
I actually have not.
Oh, that's right.
You, yeah.
Okay.
I need to, um, I just wanted toknow your diagnosis of, uh, Tony
Soprano, but, uh.
(29:24):
Anyway.
Yeah, the dude, he was kind ofon, the realms of sociopathic,
but how they portrayed it, it'slike he really liked the guy.
You know, it's like he was not agood guy, but it's like, how it
is is like open.
He trying to do his best for hisfamily, and so you ended up kind
of liking him.
But anyway, yeah, and, so Idon't want to get like too deep
(29:45):
into the legian.
Yeah.
But I mean, so I know like onetype of narcissism is, like a
vulnerable narcissism.
Yeah.
Ah, and that one, it's, thatone's like really covert, I'll
say.
Yeah.
Because more often than not,they view themselves as like
healthy, superior.
They view themselves as likehaving really good empathy.
(30:06):
Yeah.
And then when others who are inthat individual's life are
assessed on that individual'slevel of empathy, it's very
skewed.
Yeah.
Um, and so that's kind of avulnerable narcissist., It's
very, very covert.
Like they, they do show up with,they're very charming.
(30:26):
It does feel like empathy, butit's empathy with almost a goal
or an intention, if that makessense.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I got it.
Interesting.
So vulnerable narcissists.
And so would others be generalnarcissists or are there
different categories?
Oh yeah, there's yourexperience.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Like, um, there's a malignantnarcissism, which is like that,
(30:50):
really kind extreme level ofnarcissism.
But then there's, the vulnerablenarcissism, which is kind of
like the rejection sensitivity.
As I was saying earlier, likereally, really viewing
themselves as like superior, butalso like healthy.
The idea of grandiosity, when itshows up, it just blunts our
ability to be relational.
yeah.
Blunts our ability to beempathetic and it really just
(31:12):
blunts our ability to just showup in those intentional ways.
Yeah.
Which, so I can definitelyempathize with and resonate with
the impacts of grandiosity.
Yeah, but the thing aboutgrandiosity to the draw to be
one up, judgmental, it's likeour ego.
It feels good.
I dunno.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, I always describeit as that's the trap of
(31:36):
grandiosity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is it feels good.
For sure.
Very cool.
Brandon, anything else that youwould like to share about
narcissism, couples therapy,RLT.
Your journey?
Anything like that?
Yeah, I mean, I just love thework.
Mm-hmm.
Like, it's truly revolutionarywork.
(31:57):
Mm-hmm.
Um, like when I was in mygraduate program in social work,
like one of the big things thatthey talk about is kind of,
there's like our micro levelpractice, our mezzo level, and
then our macro.
Mm-hmm.
And our micro level is kind oflike what we're doing now.
It's like in the sense of like.
Uh, me sitting with anotherindividual or like a small,
small group, like working with acouple.
(32:19):
Also too, I might say a couplecould fit within maybe Mezo.
Um, but like our families are,yeah, bigger kind of like, uh,
like our towns ourneighborhoods, um, our
communities that we live in.
That's our, like our mezo.
And then we have our macro, ournational kind of like bigger
level kind of communities.
And, the work that we do, eventhough it's micro work and it's
(32:42):
not like working on the bigsystems even.
Even though it's that microlevel work, it is still, from my
perspective, tremendouslyrevolutionary.
Mm-hmm.
Because this work is in thesense of like it's
differentiation.
It's the idea of deciding whatof those things that were handed
down to you are things that youwant to continue, and what are
(33:03):
those things that halt and arestopping and ending with you.
Mm-hmm.
And that brings peace to allthose who came before you.
And it brings peace to all ofthose who are gonna follow and
it's profound.
Mm-hmm.
And, and that's part of thereason why I love this work.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's not just creatingchange within the couples or
(33:25):
their relationship, but it'salso to creating change in the
possibility of like, how they'regonna be as parents, how they're
gonna be a family.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And then forming how that kiddois gonna grow up and how they're
gonna be in a relationship, howthey're gonna move throughout
the world.
And so that's.
One of the many reasons of why Ireally, really love this work in
(33:46):
couples therapy.
Yeah.
It's just revolutionary.
Yeah.
Awesome.
That's super.
Well put, and that is yourreason why, your motivation.
And that's freaking awesome.
I love it.
Yeah.
Every day.
Well, cool, Brandon.
So obviously if anyone wants towork with Brandon, on the,
allstar list of our, therapistteam, um, there'll be a link in
(34:07):
the, the show notes.
So anyway, Brandon, thank you somuch for being here.
I really appreciate it.
Oh, of course.
Thank you for taking the time.
Welcome everyone.
This is solving disconnectionand creating connected
relationships for couples andparents.
My name is Jason Polk, and I'veworked this exclusively with
couples as a therapist and coachfor over 10 years.
On this podcast, I share myexperience professionally.
Personally and those of ouramazing guests.
Brandon, thank you for being onthe podcast.
(00:23):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Yeah, we're looking forward toit.
Yeah, me too.
And Brandon, you are a therapistat Colorado Relationship
Recovery.
Our practice, I would saysuperstar therapist., I try all
star team therapist.
So, the listeners know, and Iwanted to have you on just to
(00:44):
have you share a little bit ofyour experience being a
therapist, a little bit aboutRLT, the modality you use with
couples, also known asrelational life therapy.
And also a little bit about, um,narcissism.
'cause I know you have someexperience and specialized
training in that, so.
(01:06):
Sound good?
Sounds good to me.
All right.
Well, Brandon, starting off,what made you become a, a
therapist?
That's a good question., I feellike it was kind of a lot of
things., When I was in middleschool, I experienced a lot of
bullying and it really justcreated a lot of depression, a
lot of self-doubt, a lot ofself-esteem issues and.
(01:28):
To the extreme of creating somesort of some suicidal ideation.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so, and alsoself-harming.
And so when my parents noticed Iwas self-harming, they got me a
therapist.
Mm-hmm., And I worked with herfor, I wanna say about a year
and a half.
And it was one of the mostlife-changing experiences I've
(01:48):
had.
Like, it just opened up myworld.
It allowed me to feel morecomfortable in my skin and who I
was, and just.
Just felt more able to be me andsafe to be me, if that makes
sense., And so because of thatexperience and, and just the
tremendous impact that she hadand really helping me do that
work to help heal myself itreally motivated me to want to
(02:12):
do the same.
And also too, my grandfather, hewas a marriage and family
therapist.
Um, and so it's, I feel likeit's kind of just been in my
blood.
Like he always said, whenever,when I was a kid, little, little
kid all the way up until evennow, um, he always notices that
I'm just observing and watching.
And he always thought that thatwas just something that almost
(02:32):
would just be like this naturalskill that would really serve me
well in.
My work as a therapist and inbeing a therapist, and so I just
kind of fell into it and justreally fell in love with it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Very cool.
Well, and just curious, so yourjourney, it was high school and
then in undergrad, did you havethe idea gonna be a therapist?
(02:55):
Like did you do like psychologyor something?
Just curious.
Yeah.
Um, I took my first psychologyclass in high school as like an
elective.
And it blew my mind.
Like, uh, prior to high school,I, I really thought I wanted to
join the Marines.
I don't know why, but I reallywanted to join the Marines.
But then after that psychologycourse, like it, everything just
(03:15):
seemed to click and it just alljust made so, so much sense to
me and it just, it just flowedso naturally.
And I, I just fell in love withit right then and there.
And so when I got intoundergrad, I had two thoughts in
my mind.
Maybe I'll be an English teacherfor high school, or maybe a
psychologist or therapist.
And then I changed my major toEnglish, and then as soon as I
(03:36):
changed it, like I, I justdidn't feel right.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so then the next day Iwent and changed my major to
psychology.
And I just felt, I felt okay.
Like it just felt like a weightwas lifted off of me.
It felt like.
I was there doing what I wassupposed to be doing.
And so because of that, justfeeling that I got from it I
felt like this is where I needto be and, and what I need to
(03:58):
do.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I love it.
Yeah.
Very cool.
That's amazing.
And with that, you went to amarriage and family graduate
program., Was it your grandpa'sinfluence is why you picked
that?
Just curious about why.
Why the hell would you wannawork with couples and families?
(04:19):
Yeah.
I mean, initially, like I reallyhad no idea that couples or
families was where I was gonnago.
Okay.
And so when I was in my graduateprogram for social work, the
first year I was in aninternship at a school.
I working in the high schoollevel and elementary level, and
just my supervisor.
She was an alumni of theMarriage and Family Therapy
(04:40):
training program that I went to.
And just because of oursupervision just the way she saw
my mind working when I wasworking with students and the
work that I wanted to do withthem, she really, really thought
like I had just had a clinicalorientation and she really
suggested like going into DenverFamily Institute and having that
(05:01):
be my internship because shejust really thought that.
My clinical mindset, theanalytical mindset that I have
would just really, really servewell in the work with
individuals or families andcouples in therapy.
Yeah.
And so I went and applied forthat and I made it and got it
in.
And then my first year was justworking with individuals and
(05:22):
families.
And then my second year was withcouples and.
I immediately fell in love withworking with couples.
Like the first couple I workedwith.
It just like, it just feltnatural.
Mm-hmm.
And I just loved it.
Very cool.
Well, I want to get a little bitmore into couples therapy, but
before there, and obviously feelfree to pass Brandon, you know,
(05:44):
going back your time with thetherapist, you mentioned the
middle school bullying.
What about, the therapist?
Your work with her was sohelpful.
If you feel comfortable sharing.
That's a really good question.
The one thing that I really,really remember her kinda giving
(06:06):
to me as like a homeworkassignment or a therapy
assignment mm-hmm.
Was to create my own list ofkind of rules, values that I
kind of wanted to live my lifeaccording to.
Rather than all the shoulds thatI thought I had to live up to.
And I remember it was like thisthree page long list and she had
(06:28):
me put it on my wall in mybedroom, and every single day
when I woke up, I would justread through this list.
Mm-hmm.
Almost kind of likeaffirmations, but not really.
Yeah.
Um, and it just allowed me tojust, I don't know, feel more
connected with me and just feel.
More comfortable living in myown skin in the way I wanted to
(06:49):
live, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and so that just had thisreally profound impact of, it
doesn't matter if like in asense of whatever they think,
whatever anybody else says.
So long as I'm okay with mytruth and who I am, that's fine
in the sense of kind of thinkingand as it relates to RLT, it's
(07:11):
kind of like our psychologicalboundaries of the internal and.
Our internal boundaries of ourprotective and our containing.
Mm-hmm.
And so it really kind of really,I, I will, I will say, kind of
strengthened that protectiveboundary that I had.
Mm-hmm.
So it allowed me to just kind ofmove through life and be okay
with me, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
(07:31):
Yeah.
That's great.
Well, I'm, I'm so glad that youhad that experience with your
therapist.
Just curious, does she know thatyou're a therapist?
She doesn't the, it's horrible.
I actually forgot her name.
Yeah.
And I've, I've been trying tofigure out where her name is so
I could reach out to her and lether know.
Very cool.
But very cool nevertheless, Imean, the fact you got that
guidance that support from her,the perspective, the tools, I
(07:54):
think it's so important.
You know, just generally.
I know you were younger then,but just males in therapy, I
feel like often males, becauseof stigma we miss out on getting
the benefits of doing individualtherapy and so I think that is
great.
And you know, looking back onit, although you didn't ask, I'm
(08:16):
gonna make it about myself, inhigh school.
It was a particularly tough timefor me.
You know, there was, I, I had anidentity CRI crisis.
I played football.
I think I was good at it, but Iwasn't a football player.
I was like a stoner dude, punkrock dude, and subject to some
bullying and what I did, I justgot drunk and high, right?
(08:37):
Those are my coping tools andlooking back on it as a
therapist now.
Damn.
I could have used some of thathelp.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And they're great ways ofescaping, that's for sure.
Totally.
Quick and easy.
And then I found the niche ofpeople, we were like the stoner
jock dudes.
Right.
But, um, going back to couplestherapy.
(09:02):
And you mentioned trained inrelational life therapy.
I wanted you to talk about whatyou enjoy about couples and also
about RLT.
So choose your own adventure.
Yeah, i'll start with, couples.
So I mean.
And that's a really goodquestion.
'cause, like my first thoughtis, I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
But then my second thought isevery single day and every
(09:27):
single session, even withcouples who I've met for three
months, or longer, like eachsession,, it's always different.
Mm-hmm.
And I just love how it's alwaysdifferent.
It's always changing, it'salways moving.
And even if it isn't different.
It, there's always just manydifferent directions to go.
Like, one thing I always like tosay with all couples or all
(09:49):
clients really is it's allconnected.
It really all is.
And so in the sense of itdoesn't really matter what
direction we go in the sessionbecause it's, it's connected in
the sense that it's gonna go towhere we need to go in the sense
of just trusting the process.
And I just really love doingthat with not just, well, I do
(10:10):
love individual therapy, but Ialso really love doing it with
two other people in the roomtoo.
Yeah.
So very cool and so it'sdifferent.
And trusting the process and itsounds like you use a lot of
your therapeutic intuition, justas guidance if that's fair.
Yeah.
I mean the one, one lesson thatI got from my undergraduate
(10:32):
career is from this onepsychology professor of when
you're doing the work intherapy.
If you're operating from yourhead, you're doing it wrong.
Oh, and she said, in therapy, ifyou're a great therapist or
great therapists operate andshow up from their heart.
And it's in the sense of kind ofboth.
And not just that heart, butalso like both.
(10:53):
And and when you show up with aheart, like in sessions.
It is such a different feeling,like the world just fades away
and it's just you and thecouple.
And that is just really kind ofone of the ways that I like to
show up with couples, if thatmakes sense.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
So in a way, and feel free,maybe I'm going too far.
(11:16):
It is almost like.
A spiritual practice, but you'regetting paid for it.
I don't know if that resonates.
Yeah, I mean like one of part ofthe reason why I love RLT.
Yeah.
And Terry Real, not just'causehe is Jewish, but yeah, I have
like that connection with him.
Yeah.
Because I'm Jewish as well and Iforget where he was talking
about it.
He was asked a question and whathe answered is there's like this
(11:40):
Jewish saying of, um, it's in asense of like God working
through you.
And sometimes in sessions likewhen I'm working with couples,
I'll have like this thought orthis idea that just comes in and
I go with it and I don't knowwhere the heck it came from.
I don't know how the heck I gotit, but it just shows up and it
comes in and it's almost like,like Yahweh working through me
(12:03):
or like God working through me.
And the sense of like, yeah, itis almost like a spiritual
practice.
Yeah.
Very cool wow.
Amazing.
So the listeners know TerryReal, who you mentioned is both
of our mentor and he createdrelational life therapy that
we're both trained in, alsoknown as RLT.
(12:24):
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat modality?
Yeah.
So, the typical spiel I giveYeah.
It's a lot different than othercouples therapy.
Um, like different than EFT,different than Gottman in that
when I work with couples,there's not just one problem,
but two problems in the room.
In the sense that more oftenthan not, not all problems are
(12:44):
50 50.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes they are, but notalways.
Sometimes they're 70 30,sometimes 60 40, sometimes even
99 1.
Um, and so in a sense, the waysin which RLT are really, really
different is that when I'mworking with a couple, I don't
beat around the bush.
Um, I don't like to beat aroundthe bush.
I don't think it does any goodto help them be where, where
they're wanting to be.
(13:06):
Um, and so to be blunt andexplicit with it, it's in a
sense naming those hard truthswith each partner in the sense
of how they are showing up inthe relationship in ways that
are getting in their own way orblowing off their own foot.
And so.
That's kind of the ways in whichit's different.
And also too, it's a higherlevel change in the sense of
(13:27):
like, not just first orderchange, but second order change,
in the sense of really kind ofdiscrepancies and really being
able to kinda hold like theboth.
Prior experiences that arereally informing how we're
showing up in the moment and thepresent moment and kind of
differentiating between the,that was the past and these are
(13:47):
familiar feelings, but this isnow and this is different.
So I don't know if that makessense.
Hopefully that's, but yeah.
Yeah.
That's how.
RLT is a bit different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
What, and can you say a littlebit more about first order
change?
Second order change?
Yeah.
So the first order change is inthe sense of like if I were to
(14:07):
give a client or partnersomething for them to do within
the relationship to change howthey're showing up.
And then the second orderchanges more so kind of.
Something that they can do thatwill create change or inform
change within the system.
So it's not just in a sense,that individual, but informing
(14:28):
the system changing.
Yeah.
So that's kind of where thehigher level changes, if that
makes sense.
Oh yeah, totally.
So in a way.
I am not a helpless victim in myrelationship.
I can do something about it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's, and it's in a sense ofgetting really intentional and
really like becoming the creatorof your own relationship in your
(14:51):
own world and your own life.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not necessarily to theextent of like controlling'cause
that is a losing strategy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's more so in a sense ofyour own locus of control.
Mm-hmm.
Not necessarily.
Controlling everything outsideof that, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you feel, maybe this is adeeper question.
(15:12):
The idea of having the locus ofcontrol and being aware that I
can do something about itinstead of just blaming my
partner, is that a developmentalthing or maturity?
I don't know where I'm goingwith that, but it seems like
that is harder for some peoplethan others.
I don't know if you've foundthat too.
(15:33):
Yeah.
And part of me, like I kind ofgo to, in a sense like family of
origin experiences.
Mm-hmm.
In the sense of, it makes methink of, um, a story Terry real
tales of how when he would gethome from school, his dad just
was unpredictable.
He didn't know how his dad wouldbe, how his dad would act.
(15:53):
And one day he was coming homewith a report card, and I think
he was in like fourth grade ormaybe in middle school.
And he had all Ds on the reportcard.
And he was petrified of like howhis dad is gonna react when he
sees it.
Dad came home, he shows dad thereport card and his dad looks at
the report card and just says,oh, those dumb ass teachers
don't know how to teach you atall.
(16:14):
Mm-hmm.
It's nothing wrong with you.
It's because of those teachersYeah.
Who don't know how to teach myson who's a genius.
Yeah.
And so then that sent kind ofthis unspoken, subtle message
of.
It is okay.
It's not you.
It's them.
Yeah.
That you're all good.
You're fine.
You're perfect.
It's them.
(16:35):
And so when Terry then grew upas he was kind of going through
school, he just had D's, F'sthroughout high school,
throughout college, just becauseof the sense of.
That message that his dad senthim of, it's not you, it's these
other people.
Yeah.
You are a genius.
You know what you need to do.
It's them.
(16:55):
And so in a sense, it's kind ofthose unspoken and spoken
messages that we receive whenwe're kids that really can
inform how we're gonna show upas an adult in the sense of
blame and kind of how we castblame.
Mm-hmm.
And taking accountability.
Yeah, for sure.
And I know you're not Terry, andI've definitely heard that story
(17:19):
before.
How did he learn accountability?
If you were to guess?
Like if we were to likepsychoanalyze Terry, and I'm
thinking of it myself too.
I'm going on a side note like Igrew up.
Where my dad was prettyjudgmental in general of us at
times, but also of my mom.
(17:41):
And so how do you think I canshow up sometimes towards Jess,
my wife?
Judgmental.
In a way it was modeled and Itry to be aware and maybe I'm
answering myself, just present.
Well, first I need to knowthat's an issue.
Right.
And I think that one of the big,one of the benefits of couples
(18:03):
therapy, Hey, this is an issue,what you're doing to have that
awareness and then having thedesire to do something about it.
But what I do simply is try tobe mindful.
So that's one way.
How do you think Terry, or howdo you coach people to do
something different to justblame other people.
Yeah.
I mean, it makes me think of,the idea of leverage within
(18:27):
couples therapy.
Yeah.
In the sense of just humanbeings, just living creatures in
general.
We move away towards pain, movetowards things that feel good,
pleasure, um, and in the senseof.
In couples therapy when I'mworking with a couple, like when
we are joining through the truthand like the first couple of
phases of therapy or the firstcouple of sessions, it's me in a
(18:50):
sense kind of holding up themirror to a client.
And so as I'm thinking about it.
And also too, and taking intoaccount what you were saying in
the sense of like being able tojust be aware of it.
Mm-hmm.
In the sense of like that it isa problem.
Is like in a sense, I think thefirst step.
Yeah.
Because I always like to say tocouples like, when you see it,
you can then have choice, andthen when you have choice, you
(19:13):
can then do something different.
Yes.
And so.
From my perspective, I, I don'tknow.
I could be completely wrong.
Yeah.
Because I don't know what wasgoing on in Terry's world when
it was happening, but I mean, Iimagine if it was me, I'd be
looking at my grades being like,what the hell is wrong?, And
really, really struggling andwanting to be doing better, and
really realizing that the onlyway that I can do better is if I
(19:36):
actually decide to put in thatwork and that effort in it
myself.
Yeah.
And I think being able to seethat first of.
Oh, I'm not doing the work, somakes sense then why I'm not
having all these good gradesthat I won't get or that I want.
Mm-hmm.
I think that's like the firststep, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I think hopefully maybethat was where Terry first was
(19:57):
able to notice it and then whenhe noticed it, then he made that
decision of, this isn't what Iwant to be doing.
Yeah, for sure.
Like there, this is notcongruent with who I am.
This is not what I want to bedoing and society.
Will give you that feedback.
Right.
What you're doing, blaming otherpeople is not working.
(20:20):
Yeah, generally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let me share.
One of my kind of like wake upcalls, I was at Metro State and
I was deep into cocaine,partying, going to punk rock
shows.
I'm doing a reminiscent, it wasthe house where we lived at was
like a block away from the AlonTheater, which is totally
(20:43):
different, but they'd alwayshave like punk shows there Big
picture was kind of a good timetill it wasn't right.
Uh, at Metro State, the dude'slike.
I was on academic probation andhe said, Jason, what the hell
are you doing here?
Mm-hmm.
Right?
If you don't get your grades up,you can't stay here.
And I'm like, this is MetroState, man.
(21:04):
Like this was back in the day,but this was my second school.
And so finally I had to look inthe mirror, right?
And realize, Hey, my dad's notgonna get me out of this one,
right?
Mm-hmm.
But it's almost like you needthat.
You know, outside, I don't knowwhat's the right word?
(21:25):
Um, teaching, being like, youcan't just fuck around and like
hope things are gonna be okay.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm, I consider myself kindof lucky in that I had that
experience in my freshman yearin high school.
Because like, I had all Fswasn't doing well at all.
And then I had a counselor whowas the most amazing counselor I
(21:47):
believe.
Ever.
Yeah.
In the world.
And she put me in this program,it was called Sophomore
Enrichment Seminar.
Okay.
And in that program, it really,really got me into the mindset
of like, this is my life.
And in a sense of if I want todo well, then it's up to me to
do the work.
To do well.
Mm-hmm.
(22:07):
And I can't just sit here and donothing and then hope that,
yeah, I'm gonna get an A.
And so that was in a sense, mymoment for me to really see what
I was doing and then have achoice of doing something
different.
Great.
Well, this ties into the ideaof, of being direct.
You mentioned joining throughthe truth, and just to kind of
(22:29):
piggyback on what you said,joining through the truth is
telling someone.
The truth of the behavior thatmight be getting in the way of
what they want, but we're doingit in a way that conveys, I'm on
your side.
Mm-hmm.
But this is very importantbecause I think that it's not,
you know, we can say careconfrontation, right?
(22:49):
But we need that feedback thatthis is not working and in a
fact it's a gift.
Oh yeah.
Right.
And then, so I need thatfeedback even for my wife,
Jason.
I don't like your judgment.
Right.
Or I need, my feedback from mytherapist.
Yeah.
Jason, this is a small fuckingproblem in the big scheme of
(23:11):
things, right?
This was actually a conversationyesterday with my therapist,
right.
But it was in a loving way,right?
But sometimes we need thatfeedback because I think we
sometimes, some of us, includingmyself, a tendency to avoid.
But being direct can actually bea gift.
I don't know if you hadpiggyback on that or Oh, yeah.
(23:32):
Thoughts.
Oh, I mean, it really can likeit stings.
Mm-hmm.
But I mean, it can be a gift.
Yeah.
'cause in the sense of, like,one thing I always tell couples
is as their therapist.
I stand between the things thatthey want in their relationship
and the things that they don'twant in their relationship.
Yeah.
And it's up to them to decidewhich direction we go through
(23:53):
the work that they do.
Mm-hmm.
Or if they do any work.
Yeah.
And so in the sense that.
When I am letting a client knowlike, Hey, there is a part of
you that is showing up in a waywhere you're acting like a
constipated rager.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
For that client, it's gonnasting to hear.
But also to know like, oh shootI'm being a constipated rager.
(24:16):
Yeah.
Like, who wants to be aconstipated rager?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that stings, that sucks.
And so, okay, what do you wantto do about it?
Yeah.
Do you want to work with me tofigure out a way for you to
stand up for yourself in a waythat's gonna not harm all of
those around you and yourself?
Or do you wanna keep doing whatit is that you're doing?
Great.
(24:37):
So it's kind of like an, anoption, right?
Yeah.
Like I, I like to put it on theclient.
'cause at the end of the day,it's, it's their life.
It's, it's not mine.
Very cool.
Side note, what is yourdefinition of constipated rager?
Just curious.
Um so it's in a sense of, I liketo describe it as, a subtle
(24:58):
retaliation or,, a kind ofcovert retaliation in the sense
of like, it's passiveaggression.
Terry describes it as like, it'swar.
So it can show up in the senseof like, well, I'm not gonna
give to you because you didn'tgive to me, or, well, you were
really mean to me and made mefeel this way, so I'm gonna try
and show up in a way that'sgonna make you feel the same way
that I felt so that you canunderstand how you made me feel.
(25:19):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and.
It never works, ever.
Mm-hmm.
It's only gonna create more, uh,it just goes up and up and up
and up and it never ends.
I got it.
Well, can you say a little bitabout narcissism?
Yeah.
You know, whichever directionyou want to go with that.
(25:40):
Like it shows up in arelationship or just kind of how
you view it.
Hopefully it's the right way ofviewing it, but, um, I really
think in terms of when I'msitting across from a client,
like for example, when I'mworking with a couple around
infidelity for our betrayingpartner or I mean our involved
partner for them, the questionisn't necessarily why you did
(26:04):
it, but it's more so.
What held you back from the No.
Or did you forget about the No.
What held you back from sayingno?
Did you not remember It?
Were, did you not care?
Did you feel like you wereentitled to it?
And more often than not, thewhole reason why I go into that
with couples around infidelityis in a sense for that involved
(26:26):
partner to express.
Guilt to express, remorse toexpress the pain and the fact
that they're seeing the pain andthe hurt that they put onto
their partner.
And when I hear clients do that,or if it's in clients or with
couples around infidelity or notaround infidelity, regardless
when there is that remorse, theguilt for how your behavior
(26:50):
impacted those around you.
The thing that I like to tell myclients is good.
Mm-hmm.
It should.
Yeah.
It should hurt.
Yeah.
Because the things that we do,at the end of the day, yeah, we
can't make anybody feelanything, but at the end of the
day, it is gonna have an impact.
And if the things that I'm doingare hurting this other person,
(27:14):
if I'm caring about the factthat my behaviors and my actions
hurt this other person.
Then at the end of the day, Ican say that that person more
likely than not, probably is nota narcissist.
Mm-hmm.
Because real narcissists whoI've sat across from sociopath,
psychopaths, they don't give ashit.
Yeah.
Like, they just don't give ashit.
(27:34):
Yeah.
And so that's almost like thatone defining feature I'll say.
Got it.
Of narcissism.
Got it.
And there's all different kindsof narcissism.
Um, like I really say it's.
It's become a buzzword at thispoint.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so the idea ofnarcissism has kind of gotten a
bit muddied, I'll say in likekind of pop culture, but, in
(27:54):
mental health in a sense.
That's where I kind of.
Go, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
So kind of like what is theempathy, is there the remorse
for how they show up and howtheir behaviors impact those
around them?
Yeah.
And if there is, awesome.
And then if not, then there's agood chance I might be dealing
with some sort of type of yeah.
If that makes sense.
I got it.
(28:14):
Type of it.
Do you feel that someone who maybe describing what you're seeing
lacked the empathyaccountability?
Do you feel that you can teachthat?
If someone can learn that, Ithink Remedially you can.
In a sense, I know that that is,it's kind of the work when
working with individuals whohave a type of narcissism is
(28:36):
really, really working with themon being aware of how their
behaviors do impact those aroundthem.
And in a sense of installing theprogramming for remedial empathy
in the sense of kind of thinkingin terms of like putting myself
in the other person's shoes.
I got it.
And so you feel that can beinstalled and practiced?
(28:59):
I believe it can.
I will say, there may be almosta,.
Maybe a limit to it, I wouldsay.
Yeah, I, I'm gonna say like alimit to it, if that makes
sense.
Yeah, yeah.
I got it.
And I know we talked, have youseen the Sopranos?
I actually have not.
Oh, that's right.
You, yeah.
Okay.
I need to, um, I just wanted toknow your diagnosis of, uh, Tony
Soprano, but, uh.
(29:24):
Anyway.
Yeah, the dude, he was kind ofon, the realms of sociopathic,
but how they portrayed it, it'slike he really liked the guy.
You know, it's like he was not agood guy, but it's like, how it
is is like open.
He trying to do his best for hisfamily, and so you ended up kind
of liking him.
But anyway, yeah, and, so Idon't want to get like too deep
(29:45):
into the legian.
Yeah.
But I mean, so I know like onetype of narcissism is, like a
vulnerable narcissism.
Yeah.
Ah, and that one, it's, thatone's like really covert, I'll
say.
Yeah.
Because more often than not,they view themselves as like
healthy, superior.
They view themselves as likehaving really good empathy.
(30:06):
Yeah.
And then when others who are inthat individual's life are
assessed on that individual'slevel of empathy, it's very
skewed.
Yeah.
Um, and so that's kind of avulnerable narcissist., It's
very, very covert.
Like they, they do show up with,they're very charming.
(30:26):
It does feel like empathy, butit's empathy with almost a goal
or an intention, if that makessense.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I got it.
Interesting.
So vulnerable narcissists.
And so would others be generalnarcissists or are there
different categories?
Oh yeah, there's yourexperience.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Like, um, there's a malignantnarcissism, which is like that,
(30:50):
really kind extreme level ofnarcissism.
But then there's, the vulnerablenarcissism, which is kind of
like the rejection sensitivity.
As I was saying earlier, likereally, really viewing
themselves as like superior, butalso like healthy.
The idea of grandiosity, when itshows up, it just blunts our
ability to be relational.
yeah.
Blunts our ability to beempathetic and it really just
(31:12):
blunts our ability to just showup in those intentional ways.
Yeah.
Which, so I can definitelyempathize with and resonate with
the impacts of grandiosity.
Yeah, but the thing aboutgrandiosity to the draw to be
one up, judgmental, it's likeour ego.
It feels good.
I dunno.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, I always describeit as that's the trap of
(31:36):
grandiosity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is it feels good.
For sure.
Very cool.
Brandon, anything else that youwould like to share about
narcissism, couples therapy,RLT.
Your journey?
Anything like that?
Yeah, I mean, I just love thework.
Mm-hmm.
Like, it's truly revolutionarywork.
(31:57):
Mm-hmm.
Um, like when I was in mygraduate program in social work,
like one of the big things thatthey talk about is kind of,
there's like our micro levelpractice, our mezzo level, and
then our macro.
Mm-hmm.
And our micro level is kind oflike what we're doing now.
It's like in the sense of like.
Uh, me sitting with anotherindividual or like a small,
small group, like working with acouple.
(32:19):
Also too, I might say a couplecould fit within maybe Mezo.
Um, but like our families are,yeah, bigger kind of like, uh,
like our towns ourneighborhoods, um, our
communities that we live in.
That's our, like our mezo.
And then we have our macro, ournational kind of like bigger
level kind of communities.
And, the work that we do, eventhough it's micro work and it's
(32:42):
not like working on the bigsystems even.
Even though it's that microlevel work, it is still, from my
perspective, tremendouslyrevolutionary.
Mm-hmm.
Because this work is in thesense of like it's
differentiation.
It's the idea of deciding whatof those things that were handed
down to you are things that youwant to continue, and what are
(33:03):
those things that halt and arestopping and ending with you.
Mm-hmm.
And that brings peace to allthose who came before you.
And it brings peace to all ofthose who are gonna follow and
it's profound.
Mm-hmm.
And, and that's part of thereason why I love this work.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's not just creatingchange within the couples or
(33:25):
their relationship, but it'salso to creating change in the
possibility of like, how they'regonna be as parents, how they're
gonna be a family.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And then forming how that kiddois gonna grow up and how they're
gonna be in a relationship, howthey're gonna move throughout
the world.
And so that's.
One of the many reasons of why Ireally, really love this work in
(33:46):
couples therapy.
Yeah.
It's just revolutionary.
Yeah.
Awesome.
That's super.
Well put, and that is yourreason why, your motivation.
And that's freaking awesome.
I love it.
Yeah.
Every day.
Well, cool, Brandon.
So obviously if anyone wants towork with Brandon, on the,
allstar list of our, therapistteam, um, there'll be a link in
(34:07):
the, the show notes.
So anyway, Brandon, thank you somuch for being here.
I really appreciate it.
Oh, of course.
Thank you for taking the time.
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