68: Can marriage counseling work with a narcissist?

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Show Notes: Understanding Narcissism in Relationships

Host: Jason Polk, Couples Therapist & Agency Owner

Episode Overview: In this episode, Jason Polk explores the complex topic of narcissism and its impact on relationships. He breaks down what it means to be a narcissist, the origins of narcissistic behavior, and how these patterns affect both partners and families.

Key Topics Covered:

• Jason's definition of narcissism
• Quote on shame and false empowerment in the development of narcissistic traits
• How narcissists respond to feedback and accountability
• The emotional toll on partners of narcissists, including depression and loss of self
• The challenges and strategies of marriage counseling with a narcissistic partner
• The importance of leverage and motivation for change in therapy
• Practical advice for partners, including setting boundaries and reclaiming your voice

Resources Mentioned:

• PDF on functional psychological boundaries 

Takeaways:

• Change is possible, but it requires motivation and structure
• Partners have more influence than they may realize
• Sometimes, the work is about reclaiming your own needs and sense of self

Connect with Jason Polk: For more support or to learn about therapy options, reach out to Jason and his team of RLT therapists.

Jason's agencies: 

Colorado Relationship Recovery – Couples Therapy

Real Therapists Group (insurance-based practice)

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Okay, I'm doing it.
I am making a podcast with thepopular word that gets thrown
around a lot, and that isnarcissism or narcissist.
But first I'm going to introducethe show.
Welcome everyone.
This is solving disconnectionand creating connected
relationships for couples andparents.
My name is Jason Polk, and I'veworked this exclusively with

(00:22):
couples as a therapist and coachfor over 10 years.
What is a narcissist?
So before we dive into that, Iwanna share a quote from my
mentor, Terry Real, and heshares research shows that about
half of all the peopleclassified as narcissist are
driven by inward shame.

(00:42):
The other half simply think theyare better than everyone else.
This is due to false empowermentin childhood.
If you are struggling withgrandiosity issues or someone
you love is.
I'd ask you to take a moment andopen your heart a little bit.
Think of yourself or yourpartner as a child.

(01:03):
They once were, no one asked tobe groomed for grandiosity.
It happens to them falseempowerment, and they generally
take it in by modeling agrandiose parent.
so the purpose of sharing thatis for a little bit of
compassion.
Now let me share my definitionof a narcissist, and that is

(01:25):
someone who generally blamesother people for any issues or
for their behavior, and hasdifficulty receiving feedback or
blame due to a porous protectiveboundary.
I'm gonna add a PDF in the shownotes for you to look at the
idea of functional psychologicalboundaries.
And what I mean by a protectiveboundary is the ability to take

(01:48):
in and accept feedback if it'strue to them.
If it is not true, a healthierslash wise response might be
curiosity, for example, why doesmy partner see it that way?
But for the narcissist, thedefault reaction is defensive

(02:08):
blame.
Generally, any feedback is seenas a personal attack, even if
your goal is to improve things.
In other words.
Someone who is, we should say,defined as a narcissist,
struggles to take a criticallook at themselves and they lack

(02:29):
accountability.
And the phrase that I often hearis that, you know, I did that
offensive behavior.
I yelled and did whatever I didbecause you did blink.
Right.
I only did that because you didblank Instead of first slowing
down and taking accountability,which is, oh gosh, I see how my

(02:52):
yelling really affects you.
I'm so sorry.
Right.
The latter.
That's the healthy response.
The unhealthy response is, Ionly yelled at you because you
did blank.
So in a way you deserve it.
And that logic is used tojustify their contemptuous
behavior.
The typical attitude of anarcissist is, I am right and

(03:16):
you're wrong.
Depending on how much contemptthey carry or how high they are
on the spectrum, that mightescalate to, and you are an
idiot for thinking that.
So I'm right and you're wrongand you're an idiot for even
thinking that.
And I recall a training Iattended years ago on this

(03:37):
topic, and the trainer said Thepartner of a narcissist is
usually depressed.
And that's an interestingstatement because it makes sense
if you've essentiallycapitulated to your partner's
behaviors.
There's very little room foryour opinions, desires and
wishes.
You end up existing to serve thenarcissist ego, and that's

(04:02):
understandably depressing.
So what happens when anarcissist and their partner
walk into marriage counseling?
First, this is important tounderstand, is that narcissists
don't typically feel bad or arein pain in the relationship.
Sometimes a response is, my onlyproblem is my partner's upset.

(04:25):
Right?
Because if we have a tendency tobe grandiose or to be one up or
to be better than, the thing isthat feels good.
the problem is the people aroundthe narcissist are in pain,
right?

(04:45):
It is the analogy that someonegoes into an elevator, lights a
cigar, and everyone else aroundsthem, turns green, and so the
narcissist is the one with thecigar in the elevator.
because they don't particularlyfeel bad, the question is, well,
why should I listen?

(05:06):
To the marriage counselor, whydo I need to change the status
quo?
And as a marriage counselor, mypurpose is in a way to position
myself between the narcissistand something they want to
avoid.
Perhaps it's divorce or losingaccess to their kids, or maybe

(05:27):
the possibility of their partnerfinally being done.
So essentially what it is, isleverage.
We need to have something forthe narcissistic partner to want
to listen to us because we arepushing for something different.
If they don't have it, there'sno purpose in listening to us.

(05:49):
And so the question is, as apartner, what can you do about
it?
If you want to do ultimatums, itdepends on where you're at.
If it doesn't get better, I'mout of here.
And obviously with ultimatumsyou gotta mean it, right?
Or it could be something like,Hey, I just want you to know
every day that goes by that weare not doing counseling or

(06:12):
you're not changing.
I just want you to know that I'mvery.
What's for dinner, right?
Or you know, whatever that is.
But I think it's important,, ifyou are, if you wanna say the
non narcissistic partner in therelationship, I think it'd be
important to talk to someone,ideally a therapist, you know,

(06:32):
ideally us individually on wayswhere you can if you wanna say,
increase the leverage orincrease some motivational
hooks.
I think that is reallyimportant.
Sometimes there's positiveleverage.
The idea of, if you listen tome, your wife will be happier.
Your kids will want to hang outwith you more, right?

(06:54):
But whatever that is, we needthat motivational hook.
And in therapy, that's somethingthat therapists will explore.
But here's the thing too.
If there's no motivation tochange, a marriage counselor
can't do very much, if say thepartner's not gonna leave,

(07:15):
nothing bad's gonna happen.
They're not in a significantamount of pain, then there's no
reason to listen to me, themarriage counselor.
And so that's important.
But I also think, as a partner.
Of a narcissist, you do havemore influence than you think.
And again, it might be helpfulto brainstorm the influence you

(07:36):
do have with a therapist.
And ideally, we're trying togently guide your partner
towards seeing value incounseling and also seeing value
in engaging in counseling.
And I do believe if you have atendency to be narcissistic, you
can change to slow down, to bemore empathetic.
To practice a better boundary,but again, you have to have a

(07:59):
reason to do so.
I would say though, mayor'scounseling with a narcissist,
it's not usually smooth, right?
There can be some bumps in theroad, but in conclusion, it's
not impossible.
And with some structure, we areRLT therapists at our agency and
we're trained to help people.

(08:21):
Who have a tendency to benarcissistic, but change can
happen.
And it might be slow andimperfect.
And here's another one too.
Say if you're the partner of thenarcissistic person, a bigger
question is, what do you needbesides the narcissistics
willingness to change?
And sometimes the work isn'tabout fixing the relationship at

(08:43):
all costs.
It's about reclaiming yourvoice, your needs.
And your sense of self.
And so that's important and Ithink that I about do it for
today.
Thanks for listening.