Somewhere in the Middle welcomes 'Tine Zekis, Founder and CEO of Getting Black Women Paid
Christine ('Tine) Zekis is an educator turned software engineer, international speaker, and Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB) advocate. She is the Founder and CEO of Getting Black Women Paid, which empowers Black women professionals to change the trajectory of their careers, dramatically increase their lifetime earning potential, and build generational wealth. 'Tine is a sought-after speaker on panels and at tech conferences where she discusses salary negotiation, career changers, imposter syndrome, and DEIB in the industry.
Connect with 'Tine ZekisFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/christinezekis
Twitter: https://twitter.com/tinezekis
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tinezekis/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gettingblackwomenpaid/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(02:09):
Happy Friday, everyone. Welcometo somewhere in the middle with
Michelle. I'm your host, MicheleBarard, founder and CEO Michelly
variety LLC. I'm really happy toshare this hour with you, where
we examine all those placeswhere spirit meets life and the
joys and challenges that webring. You guys know I'd like to
start by thanking Miss Beverlyblack and tribe family channel
(02:32):
for helping me create the spacefor us, tribe family journalism
to an assortment of thoughtprovoking shows that explore my
spirit, business and culture,including the woman at the well
hosted by Miss Beverly blackherself. Somewhere in the middle
was born in Jenkins. And thoughwe have grown onto our own
platform, we are ever gratefuland loyal to our roots. To
(02:54):
paraphrase an African proverb,you're here only because we
stand on the shoulders of thosewho came before us. I want to
thank my guests on the May19 2023 show, leadership coach
William AdAway. You can connectwith William on social media and
that is website. If you missthat show, make sure you listen
to the replay. You can find ourcomplete show archives including
(03:17):
the May 19 show at the somewherein the middle podcast.com. I
also want to shout out BruceGeorge of the geniuses common
movement which encourages all ofus to embrace our inner genius
and share it with the world.This is a really important
message and I hope you'll shareit with the kids. But it's not
just for children. We adultsneed to be reminded sometimes
(03:39):
that the world needs our genius.Learn more about the geniuses
common movement at WWW dotgenius is common.com. Now I'm
really excited about thismonth's guest because she helps
black women get paid. Christinetiene Zika is an educator turned
software engineer, internationalspeaker and Diversity Equity
(04:03):
inclusion and belonging, the EIBadvocate. She's the founder and
CEO of getting black women paid,which empowers black women
professionals to change thetrajectory of their careers
dramatically increase theirlifetime earning potential and
build generational wealth. Tinais a sought after speaker on
(04:24):
panels in at tech conferenceswhere she discusses salary
negotiation, career changes,impostor syndrome, and dei be in
the industry. So I would like towelcome teen Zika is to
somewhere in the middle withMichele Barard. Teen thank you
so much for being on the show.I'm really excited to have you,
(04:44):
Michelle, thank you for havingme. I'm so excited to be here.
Well, you know, because you toldme listen to some episodes. So
you already know I start my showwith two questions. And I just
want to get into You know, whois Jean zycus? So I asked those
(05:06):
two questions. All right. Allright, team zycus. Who are you?
And how did you become who youare today?
I love this question. I am aentrepreneur, I help black women
earn the salary they deserve.And I got to where I am today
(05:28):
through various winding paths. Iwas a teacher, I was a software
engineer. And, and now I'm acoach. And the rest is history.
I think that's awesome. Youknow, I just admire, let me tell
(05:49):
you what I really admire. Iadmire the entrepreneurial
spirit. And I believe you haveto have a bit of an
entrepreneurial spirit, even inyour job. But then to switch
gears in the way that you did,from education, to developing,
you know, to coding, how didthat happen for you?
(06:09):
Sure. So, gosh, I went throughmy my education program. And it
wasn't until the very end ofstudent teaching that I realized
it really was not for me. And,and, you know, when I was a full
time teacher, you know, I'm in aroom full of kids who have been
taught to hate math for 10years. And I can teach a math
(06:33):
concept in 10 different ways. Ido not know more than one way to
say Don't talk when someone elseis talking. Other than maybe
inserting some curse words. Sofor me, it was, you know, the
classroom was not it. And so Iwas trying to figure out what to
do next. And I ended up as along term sub for, you know, a
(06:56):
bunch of my math teachercolleagues, they were they were
five math teachers all havingbabies in one year. So I just
went from one to the other, Itaught every single kind of
math. And one of them alsotaught AP computer science. So
it was basically intro to Java.And I was staying a chapter
ahead of the kids trying tofigure this thing out. And I
(07:17):
realized I really liked coding.I think for me, the biggest, the
most exciting part was that all30 kids could have a different
answer and be right. You know,whereas in math, it's like,
okay, did everyone get 12. And Ihad no idea that there was
(07:37):
creativity in programming. So Idid a bootcamp back in 2015. And
I became a software engineer.And, and yet, I did that for the
next seven years.
Wow. So couple of things. One,creativity and programming,
people don't realize that it's acombination, really, I think, of
(08:02):
problem solving. And justthinking outside, well, how, how
can we make this happen in anelegant way, ideally, in an
elegant way? Absolutely. Yeah.There's a whole lot of
creativity involved in thatprocess. Is it the creativity
that drew you to programmingmore so than anything else?
(08:23):
Um, I mean, I'm still a mathteacher. In my heart, I think it
was the combination of thelogic, the problem solving, and
the creativity that that kind ofdrew me in. For a while I was a
test engineer. And to me, Ithought, writing tests was the
same as writing proofs ingeometry class, you know, I know
(08:46):
it does this. I know it'ssupposed to do this. How do we
prove it? Right. And so kind ofworking backwards, and trying to
write that out. So I yeah, Ienjoyed the the math nerdy part
of it as well as, as well as thecreativity.
Now, how did you find working inthe development world, which is
(09:07):
male dominated? Its white maledominated, at least here in the
US? In other countries? That'snot necessarily the case. Sure,
but here in the US, it's itswhite male dominated field, what
was your experience working insoftware companies? In the
highly tech end of things?
This is a great question. It wasa huge culture shock, you know,
(09:30):
coming from education, which isvery female dominated. And from
working in, in schools, where itwas understood that everyone had
a social justice mindset. Youknow, it was really different to
come into, you know, come on toan engineering team, and find
that I had very little in commonwith my colleagues. You know,
(09:54):
one on one, I was great. Butonce I got into a group and
people were talking about Thecomputer they built in high
school or, you know, wallclimbing or whatever it was.
They were talking about, I justthought, I don't even know. I
don't know what I'm supposed todo here. A friend of mine framed
(10:14):
it so well. She said, she saidto her male boss, actually, her
her white male boss's boss. Youknow, have you ever dropped your
wife off at a baby shower or ata bridal shower and thought,
Gosh, I'm not gonna go in there.Yeah. And she said, that's what
it's like to come to work everyday. You know, it's not that
(10:35):
anyone is actively trying toexclude you. But the culture is
not, it's not for you. So yeah,that was definitely a huge
adjustment I had to make.
Yeah. And it takes time tokinda, especially as you get
older, because I'm not as youngas I once was. And I worked in
tech, right, for a long time. Asyou get older, you kind of look
(11:01):
at things and go. Do I have thepatience?
Do I have the time and energy tocare about? Absolutely, yeah.
And well, I think for me being acareer changer, I also found
that I was older than a lot ofmy colleagues as well. And, you
(11:24):
know, one of the first things Ihad to battle was imposter
syndrome, you know, coming inand talking to a guy who had
been building computers in highschool. And I thought, gosh,
I've been coding for six months,you know. And, and one of the
things that got me through thatwas realizing all of the things
I had gained, in my priorexperience, that someone who
(11:47):
went and got a computer sciencedegree, and then had been coding
ever since had not done so. Forinstance, in my, in my
interview, for the firstdevelopment railway, I landed, I
told the manager, I'm adeveloper who can speak human.
You know, I can break downconcepts, and meet people where
(12:08):
they're at whether they have atechnical background or not. And
that is not something that everydeveloper team has, you know,
and so that was kind of whathelped me push through. That was
okay, you, you've been aroundthis block a million times. But
while you were doing that, I wasI wasn't going all around the
town. You know, I was, I wasgaining a lot of other kinds of
(12:31):
experiences that I can bring tothe table.
Well, and you said somethingthat's really important, you
know, because my background istechnical training, right? I
taught software, and what Iviewed my job as was kind of a
translation role. Because youhave the developers over here,
(12:51):
they taught developer stuff,they think about things from a
developer's perspective. Andthen as a trainer, I get
questions from clients, like,why does this work this way? I
can go back and tell thedevelopers sometimes they like
it. But I mean, it's animportant job to be able to,
(13:15):
like you said, Speak human, andhelp people really understand
how the software works. Or inyour case, you were probably
translating, I would imagine howa user might experience this
versus how a developer designsit.
Right, right. And talking withother stakeholders, you know,
that the product team is wantingto know, why can't it be like
(13:37):
this? And, you know, thedevelopers are like, well,
obviously, you know. And so Ican step in and say, Well, you
know, here's here are the hereare the limitations, right? And,
and that kind of thing is, yeah,it's really valuable when you're
when you're on a crossfunctional team. And not
(14:00):
everyone in the room as adeveloper.
Yeah. Well, and you've got abackground in developing even
though you didn't go into ityourself originally, right?
Oh, I have a, maybe a geneticbackground in programming. So my
(14:21):
mom is an IT architect. And hermom was a programmer as well. So
I am a third generation womanprogrammer, which I didn't even
realize until I actually gotinto into coding, and then
started connecting the dots. Butyeah, it's uh, it definitely
feels like I am, you know,fulfilling a legacy of some
(14:43):
sort.
But that's amazing to have, youknow, three women in your
family, three generations ofwomen who are in coding, which
is a male dominated field, whitemale dominated, like we said,
so. Your mom, your grandma mom.I'm assuming that they had at
some point said to you needs to,you need to go into programming,
(15:07):
you've got the brain for it.
It's so funny. So my mom, sheregularly tells me that my
problem is that I'm good at toomany things. And so for her, she
said, programming was a nobrainer, because that's the way
her brain works. She doesn'twant to be, you know, managing
(15:27):
people, she doesn't want to beout giving talks, she's like,
you know, put me in front of thecomputer, close the door, I'll
do what I need to do. Whereas Iwas singing, I was doing art
projects, I was kind of all overthe place. And so I think that
she hesitated to, you know, toreally steer me in one
(15:51):
particular direction. But I dothink that once I once I went
into programming, she, she feltlike I was coming home. You
know?
She didn't say anything. Shedidn't not even just once, like,
I told you, so.
I think the I'm sure the I toldyou. So that came out a little
bit. Of course, yeah.
(16:16):
That's awesome. So what you donow, though, is really
important, because you helpblack women really understand
their worth in their careers,and get more money. Right. So I
don't remember the exact stats.You may know this better than I
but I believe it was somethinglike 54 cents of $1. Ghost
(16:42):
versus white man. Yeah, so Iremember in about correctly,
black woman right now earn 58cents to every dollar white man
earns in the US. And this pastSeptember, it was September 21,
I think was black women's EqualPay Day? Because it would take a
(17:02):
black woman, nine extra months,a year and nine months to earn
what the average white manearned in one year. So yeah, we
are, we are we're fightingagainst a huge pay gap, and a
wealth gap. A generationalwealth gap, you know, these
(17:24):
issues really expand far beyondjust, you know, one person's
bank account.
Well, and that's reallyimportant, too, because so many
households are headed by women.And so it's not just the women,
rather, dealing with this. It'sthe children, basically, you're
not living the lifestyles thatthey should be able to live. And
(17:45):
we're not talking about buyingJordans and all that we're
talking about quality food,we're talking about quality
health care, we're talking aboutliving in a safe and clean
environment, or we're talkingabout going to better schools.
Because our school system isfunded primarily by tax dollars.
So if you're in a poorneighborhood, what happens your
(18:06):
kids don't get the sameeducation, the same
opportunities necessarily, askids wealthier neighborhood. So
when when you talk about blackwomen in particular earning more
money, you're really talkingabout uplifting future
generations as well. Absolutely,absolutely. So how do you work
with your clients? What kinds ofthings do you do with your
(18:28):
clients to help them kind of getover their imposter syndrome,
which they may be dealing with,particularly if they're in a
male dominated or white maledominated careers? How do you
help them? Just understand howmuch money is on the table? And
how to get it? How to put theirhands on it?
Absolutely, absolutely. So,gosh, a few things. So, you
(18:52):
know, just starting with theimposter syndrome. To me, I, I
really tried to push against thephrase know your worth, you
know, I think people use that.You know, to be empowering,
know, your worth, but in acapitalist society, I really
cringe at the idea of assigning$1 value to a human's worth, you
(19:17):
know, and so it starts with aconversation about the intrinsic
value that a person has beingUnlimited, there's no dollar
amount, no one owns you. Andthere's no amount of money that
could buy you. And so when youcome into it from that
framework, the no salary is toohigh. You know, and so that's
(19:40):
sort of where I, where I try tostart with my with my clients.
And you know, one example I liketo give is, I when I was when I
was an engineer, at one point Iwas making 100,000 a year. And
in my next role, I was reallyhoping to get 120 you I went
(20:01):
through the interview process,they came back with an offer,
the offer was 140. And my brainwanted to say, Yes, please,
thank you. But what I said waswhat I always say, so I don't
have to think about it. I said,Thank you so much, I'd love to
see a copy of the benefits andtake a day or two to think about
(20:22):
it. And that day, I read, Ithink it was a tweet, I read
somewhere that says black women,whatever you are going to ask
for, ask for more. And I thoughtabout if they offered me 140,
and they offered a white guy140. And I said, Yes, please.
Thank you so much. And henegotiated? Yeah, then we're
(20:45):
coming in uneven. And fromthere, every increase is based
on a percentage of what youcurrently have. So that gap just
gets bigger and bigger overtime. So you know, for me, it's,
you know, I don't like to answerthe question, right. In that
moment, I have the thing, I'mgonna say that gives me some
time. And then I recalibrate.Okay, yes, I was looking at 120.
(21:10):
But now that's not even on thetable. Now we're looking at 140,
what can I do from there. And,you know, through various
calculations, I decided to askfor another 15. And I got eight.
So I started in there at 148.And when I got there, there were
two other women who were underleveled and underpaid. And in
six months, when they got set upto their proper level, they knew
(21:34):
the number that I had. And theywere able to fight for that. And
so they both got brought up to148, as well. And so for me,
that's just a win across theboard. Right? Yeah. You know, so
I always try to think, you know,with my clients, I always try to
say, you know, because there isno number that's too high. You
(21:58):
know, we're going to come intoit, we're going to do our market
research, we're going to figureout what number we're hoping
for. But then once the actualnegotiation is happening, if
they say 200, if they say 300,there's no number where I'm
going to say, Oh, my goodness,thank you. And not negotiate,
because no company is coming inat the very top of their budget
(22:18):
on their first offer. Exactly.
Well, and that's reallyimportant for us to understand,
because if I had been in yoursituation, I'm not sure what I'd
have done, I think my head wouldhave blown off. They're coming
in $20,000, higher than Iexpected, being so prepared with
what you just knowing what tosay, makes all the difference in
(22:40):
the world. So it sounds likepart of what you do as you help
you help black women think aboutahead of time, what they're
going to say in thesediscussions, so that if
something great happens, orsomething not so great happens
in discussion, they're at leastprepared employees.
(23:00):
And not even just think aboutwhat you're gonna say practice
it, say it out loud. Because itis hard to say these numbers out
loud when they seem ridiculousto you. You know, when I was a
teacher, I was making $43,000 ayear. So to say to someone 140
Sounds great. But what I reallyneed is 155. I needed to say
(23:21):
that stuff a couple times.Before I could say it to another
person, you know, so some of usactually, say it out loud, get
used to saying these numbers.
Yeah. And then when you makethat kind of career switch
especially. Right, so that wouldgo for also people who are just
(23:42):
coming out of college wheremaybe they were just unless
they're like law students wherethey were making pretty good
money in their internships. Butif they were, especially if they
were doing free internships.First, you're working for free,
you're going to school, andyou're actually paying them for
the privilege of being them. Andnow you got to go into your
(24:03):
first salary negotiation. I knowI didn't negotiate anything. My
first time out. I just madepeanuts and was just happy to
have a job. Right.
Well, and when you come from asituation where you've only
worked hourly, even just hearinga salary sounds like a million
dollars. Yeah. Right. Whensomeone says, Wow, $40,000 That
(24:27):
sounds like so much when you'rethinking gosh, I was making, you
know, eight for seven bucks.Yeah, exactly. And so, you know,
and so that's why that themarket research and really
getting used to those numbers isso valuable because yeah, when
you're especially when you'rechanging industries, or you're
coming into it for the firsttime, those numbers sound really
(24:51):
big.
So you teach. It sounds like youalso teach your clients how to
do that market research where tofind that information so that
they can be informed and reallyeducated on what the, let's say
average salary for their role isin their, in your area.
Right? So yeah, I help them withthat research and also with the
(25:15):
mindset when they do find those,those ranges, because what a lot
of my clients will will do isthey'll do the research, and
they'll say, Okay, it looks likethe, the average is 80,000. So
I'm going to hope for 70. And Istart with 80, then is the
minimum, whatever the middle is,that's your minimum, because you
(25:39):
are not average, you are notbelow average, you are
exceptional. And coming into anindustry as a black woman and
having a perspective that noteveryone does, adds value. And
so for me, it's also yes, it'shelping do the research, but
then also adjusting the mindsetas you're approaching that, as
(26:03):
I'm trying to find my minimum,which is the middle. Right. And
so my range now, if I see thatthe middle is 80. Now, my range
is 80 to 100. Right, I'm notasking for 70 or 60.
Well, and that's, that'sinteresting, too, because now
with people working remotely, alot of the tech companies, at
(26:26):
least this is my observation ofthe tech companies in recent
years, or are very pleased topay you the wage for your local
area, as opposed to if you werein, let's say, Southern
California or San Francisco orsomeplace like that. Right. What
(26:46):
are your thoughts on that?Should the salaries beyond on
par with what they would haveearned? If if they were in San
Francisco? Or?
Oh, I have strong feelingsabout? Yes, I think that
companies that are going to bebased out of San Francisco
should be paying San Franciscorates to every one of their
(27:08):
employees, you know, to me, Idon't see a difference morally,
in, you know, paying someonelower because they live in
Texas, or because they live inIowa, as I do in outsourcing to
a country that doesn't have aminimum wage, and you're paying
(27:30):
now pennies to someone in youknow, in a foreign country, I
think both of those things arenot right. If you have set the
value for the work, that's thevalue. A lot of companies are,
are saying, you know, let's makethese adjustments for living,
you know, cost of living. ButI'm like, you're not setting the
(27:50):
initial salary based on cost ofliving. Right? So you're just
saying you, you're basicallytrying to get a discount based
on your, your perception of howmuch it cost me to live my life.
But though if I'm doing the samework as someone in San
Francisco, I mean that SanFrancisco money?
Well, you know, what's reallyfunny about that is living in a
(28:11):
major city. It's not thatdifferent cost of living these
days, there was a time where youcould say for example, if you're
in Atlanta versus San Francisco,that your rent was going to be
less than half, you know, third,you know, whatever, a quarter of
what it is up there, but thesedays, not so much. Right. I
(28:33):
mean, I'm not saying thateverything is that way. But
yeah,
well, I was at a company thatthey had different tiers, and
one of the tiers was for SanFrancisco and New York. And then
the next year was the rest ofthe country. And I'm like I'm in
Chicago. It costs a lot more tolive in Chicago than it does to
live in Boise. Right? It's notso yeah, I wish companies didn't
(28:59):
have those policies, I do findit can be a challenge to
negotiate against those.Especially depending on the size
of the company, they may may ormay not be willing to make
exceptions to whatever theirpolicies are. But you know, I'm
definitely open to helping myclients make the argument that
(29:20):
the work is the work this is thevalue you've assigned, and it's
not really your business howmuch my rent is.
There it is, because it's notright. You don't know You don't
know my life
we don't pay people based on howmany kids they have. We pay
(29:41):
people based on you know whatother expenses you know, Oh, do
you have a chronic condition? Wedon't pay people based on the
expenses in their lives. So Idon't see why location should be
different.
Well, you and I are on the samepage with that you just have a
whole bunch of like program likelogic behind yours. I just did
how But
(30:02):
it starts in the heart of thatjust seems unfair. But then my
logic brain is like, you know,and this is why?
Well, let me ask you, if youhad, let's say, three pieces of
advice for someone who's tryingto go into salary negotiation,
what would those be?
(30:25):
So you know, I actually have aframing my three secrets to
earning the salary you deserve.The first is believe it. So that
is, you know, work on your ownimposter syndrome, figure out
what all of the different assetsyou have to bring to the table,
and what makes you uniquelyqualified. So that's the first
(30:49):
one believe it. The second isshow it. So now that you know
how awesome you are, make sureyour manager knows make sure the
interviewer knows, you know,make sure the decision makers
know what an asset you bring.And then the last ones get it.
That's the do the marketresearch. You know, maybe write
(31:12):
out a script of what you'regoing to say, you know, that's
the actual now let's make theactual ask, now that we've all
established how amazing you are.
I'm a big fan of scripts, y'all.I'm a big fan, because it helps
you to really get something intoyour brain to read it to say it.
(31:33):
You know, and I mean, and thenyou feel more natural when you
do say it, even if you arenervous on the inside.
Right? And at the very leastsome bullet points on things you
want to make sure you don'tforget. You know, you would i I
am definitely the type of personwho, when I'm emotionally
charged in a conversation, I canreally lose my place and not
(31:56):
remember what I what I wanted toget across. And then I leave
that conversation like, oh, Ishould have said this, I should
have said that. I don't go intonegotiations with with the open
chance of maybe I'm gonna forgetwhat I wanted to say.
Yes. And everybody's carrying asmartphone. So there's no reason
not to have bullet points onyour phone and to feel
(32:19):
comfortable looking at them.
Yeah, I can even say let mecheck my notes and make sure I
covered everything. You know,it's not it doesn't have to be a
secret that you wrote some stuffdown. That just means you were
prepared.
Yeah. And being prepared isprobably nine tenths of things
when you're going just like youprepare for the initial
interview. Exactly. No. Awesome.Well, Team, please
(32:44):
tell everyone how they canconnect with you.
Absolutely. So the website isgetting black women paid.com.
And I would love to extend agift to your listeners. So if
they go to getting black womanpaid.com/the middle pod, I have
(33:07):
my FREE skills analysischecklist. And this is a series
of activities they can gothrough to figure out what are
those? What are those assets?What are those skills that they
bring? And how do they translateto high paying roles and high
paying industries. So you know,grab that and you can get on my
(33:30):
mailing list hear from me, Ihave tips and tricks that I that
I share with my with my, mynewsletter, and you can find me
at TMZ guess pretty muchanywhere. LinkedIn, Facebook,
Twitter, Instagram, teensieguess ti n e zek is
(33:51):
awesome. And y'all I'm goinggrab that checklist right now.
Like as soon as we're done here.That's the first thing I'm
doing. So make sure y'all grabthat. I love your URL getting
black women paid.com And thenthey're gonna go to slash the
middle podcast and get thatchecklist right. The middle pod,
(34:13):
the middle, Todd. Okay. Awesome.Guys, go get that checklist.
It's really important. You needto do that skills assessment. We
got to get these Dolla dollabills. I absolutely. Dean, thank
you so much for being onsomewhere in the middle with
Michele Barard.
Michele Thank you. It's kind ofthe light.
So that's our show this month,guys. You can reach me online at
(34:35):
Michele barard.com. You can alsofind me on Facebook, Instagram
and Tiktok as urban book editor,feel free to send in some topics
you'd like us to cover on theshow. Send me a note. I'd love
to hear from you. Make sure youtune into the show on July 21
when my guest will be massageand spa professional Galewood.
(34:56):
You can find us once a month onFridays at 5pm Pacific 6pm
Mountain 7pm Central 8pm Easternat the somewhere in the middle
podcast.com Let's continue theconversation. You guys be good.
stay mindful and remainprayerful. Peace and blessings
Happy Friday, everyone. Welcometo somewhere in the middle with
Michelle. I'm your host, MicheleBarard, founder and CEO Michelly
variety LLC. I'm really happy toshare this hour with you, where
we examine all those placeswhere spirit meets life and the
joys and challenges that webring. You guys know I'd like to
start by thanking Miss Beverlyblack and tribe family channel
(02:32):
for helping me create the spacefor us, tribe family journalism
to an assortment of thoughtprovoking shows that explore my
spirit, business and culture,including the woman at the well
hosted by Miss Beverly blackherself. Somewhere in the middle
was born in Jenkins. And thoughwe have grown onto our own
platform, we are ever gratefuland loyal to our roots. To
(02:54):
paraphrase an African proverb,you're here only because we
stand on the shoulders of thosewho came before us. I want to
thank my guests on the May19 2023 show, leadership coach
William AdAway. You can connectwith William on social media and
that is website. If you missthat show, make sure you listen
to the replay. You can find ourcomplete show archives including
(03:17):
the May 19 show at the somewherein the middle podcast.com. I
also want to shout out BruceGeorge of the geniuses common
movement which encourages all ofus to embrace our inner genius
and share it with the world.This is a really important
message and I hope you'll shareit with the kids. But it's not
just for children. We adultsneed to be reminded sometimes
(03:39):
that the world needs our genius.Learn more about the geniuses
common movement at WWW dotgenius is common.com. Now I'm
really excited about thismonth's guest because she helps
black women get paid. Christinetiene Zika is an educator turned
software engineer, internationalspeaker and Diversity Equity
(04:03):
inclusion and belonging, the EIBadvocate. She's the founder and
CEO of getting black women paid,which empowers black women
professionals to change thetrajectory of their careers
dramatically increase theirlifetime earning potential and
build generational wealth. Tinais a sought after speaker on
(04:24):
panels in at tech conferenceswhere she discusses salary
negotiation, career changes,impostor syndrome, and dei be in
the industry. So I would like towelcome teen Zika is to
somewhere in the middle withMichele Barard. Teen thank you
so much for being on the show.I'm really excited to have you,
(04:44):
Michelle, thank you for havingme. I'm so excited to be here.
Well, you know, because you toldme listen to some episodes. So
you already know I start my showwith two questions. And I just
want to get into You know, whois Jean zycus? So I asked those
(05:06):
two questions. All right. Allright, team zycus. Who are you?
And how did you become who youare today?
I love this question. I am aentrepreneur, I help black women
earn the salary they deserve.And I got to where I am today
(05:28):
through various winding paths. Iwas a teacher, I was a software
engineer. And, and now I'm acoach. And the rest is history.
I think that's awesome. Youknow, I just admire, let me tell
(05:49):
you what I really admire. Iadmire the entrepreneurial
spirit. And I believe you haveto have a bit of an
entrepreneurial spirit, even inyour job. But then to switch
gears in the way that you did,from education, to developing,
you know, to coding, how didthat happen for you?
(06:09):
Sure. So, gosh, I went throughmy my education program. And it
wasn't until the very end ofstudent teaching that I realized
it really was not for me. And,and, you know, when I was a full
time teacher, you know, I'm in aroom full of kids who have been
taught to hate math for 10years. And I can teach a math
(06:33):
concept in 10 different ways. Ido not know more than one way to
say Don't talk when someone elseis talking. Other than maybe
inserting some curse words. Sofor me, it was, you know, the
classroom was not it. And so Iwas trying to figure out what to
do next. And I ended up as along term sub for, you know, a
(06:56):
bunch of my math teachercolleagues, they were they were
five math teachers all havingbabies in one year. So I just
went from one to the other, Itaught every single kind of
math. And one of them alsotaught AP computer science. So
it was basically intro to Java.And I was staying a chapter
ahead of the kids trying tofigure this thing out. And I
(07:17):
realized I really liked coding.I think for me, the biggest, the
most exciting part was that all30 kids could have a different
answer and be right. You know,whereas in math, it's like,
okay, did everyone get 12. And Ihad no idea that there was
(07:37):
creativity in programming. So Idid a bootcamp back in 2015. And
I became a software engineer.And, and yet, I did that for the
next seven years.
Wow. So couple of things. One,creativity and programming,
people don't realize that it's acombination, really, I think, of
(08:02):
problem solving. And justthinking outside, well, how, how
can we make this happen in anelegant way, ideally, in an
elegant way? Absolutely. Yeah.There's a whole lot of
creativity involved in thatprocess. Is it the creativity
that drew you to programmingmore so than anything else?
(08:23):
Um, I mean, I'm still a mathteacher. In my heart, I think it
was the combination of thelogic, the problem solving, and
the creativity that that kind ofdrew me in. For a while I was a
test engineer. And to me, Ithought, writing tests was the
same as writing proofs ingeometry class, you know, I know
(08:46):
it does this. I know it'ssupposed to do this. How do we
prove it? Right. And so kind ofworking backwards, and trying to
write that out. So I yeah, Ienjoyed the the math nerdy part
of it as well as, as well as thecreativity.
Now, how did you find working inthe development world, which is
(09:07):
male dominated? Its white maledominated, at least here in the
US? In other countries? That'snot necessarily the case. Sure,
but here in the US, it's itswhite male dominated field, what
was your experience working insoftware companies? In the
highly tech end of things?
This is a great question. It wasa huge culture shock, you know,
(09:30):
coming from education, which isvery female dominated. And from
working in, in schools, where itwas understood that everyone had
a social justice mindset. Youknow, it was really different to
come into, you know, come on toan engineering team, and find
that I had very little in commonwith my colleagues. You know,
(09:54):
one on one, I was great. Butonce I got into a group and
people were talking about Thecomputer they built in high
school or, you know, wallclimbing or whatever it was.
They were talking about, I justthought, I don't even know. I
don't know what I'm supposed todo here. A friend of mine framed
(10:14):
it so well. She said, she saidto her male boss, actually, her
her white male boss's boss. Youknow, have you ever dropped your
wife off at a baby shower or ata bridal shower and thought,
Gosh, I'm not gonna go in there.Yeah. And she said, that's what
it's like to come to work everyday. You know, it's not that
(10:35):
anyone is actively trying toexclude you. But the culture is
not, it's not for you. So yeah,that was definitely a huge
adjustment I had to make.
Yeah. And it takes time tokinda, especially as you get
older, because I'm not as youngas I once was. And I worked in
tech, right, for a long time. Asyou get older, you kind of look
(11:01):
at things and go. Do I have thepatience?
Do I have the time and energy tocare about? Absolutely, yeah.
And well, I think for me being acareer changer, I also found
that I was older than a lot ofmy colleagues as well. And, you
(11:24):
know, one of the first things Ihad to battle was imposter
syndrome, you know, coming inand talking to a guy who had
been building computers in highschool. And I thought, gosh,
I've been coding for six months,you know. And, and one of the
things that got me through thatwas realizing all of the things
I had gained, in my priorexperience, that someone who
(11:47):
went and got a computer sciencedegree, and then had been coding
ever since had not done so. Forinstance, in my, in my
interview, for the firstdevelopment railway, I landed, I
told the manager, I'm adeveloper who can speak human.
You know, I can break downconcepts, and meet people where
(12:08):
they're at whether they have atechnical background or not. And
that is not something that everydeveloper team has, you know,
and so that was kind of whathelped me push through. That was
okay, you, you've been aroundthis block a million times. But
while you were doing that, I wasI wasn't going all around the
town. You know, I was, I wasgaining a lot of other kinds of
(12:31):
experiences that I can bring tothe table.
Well, and you said somethingthat's really important, you
know, because my background istechnical training, right? I
taught software, and what Iviewed my job as was kind of a
translation role. Because youhave the developers over here,
(12:51):
they taught developer stuff,they think about things from a
developer's perspective. Andthen as a trainer, I get
questions from clients, like,why does this work this way? I
can go back and tell thedevelopers sometimes they like
it. But I mean, it's animportant job to be able to,
(13:15):
like you said, Speak human, andhelp people really understand
how the software works. Or inyour case, you were probably
translating, I would imagine howa user might experience this
versus how a developer designsit.
Right, right. And talking withother stakeholders, you know,
that the product team is wantingto know, why can't it be like
(13:37):
this? And, you know, thedevelopers are like, well,
obviously, you know. And so Ican step in and say, Well, you
know, here's here are the hereare the limitations, right? And,
and that kind of thing is, yeah,it's really valuable when you're
when you're on a crossfunctional team. And not
(14:00):
everyone in the room as adeveloper.
Yeah. Well, and you've got abackground in developing even
though you didn't go into ityourself originally, right?
Oh, I have a, maybe a geneticbackground in programming. So my
(14:21):
mom is an IT architect. And hermom was a programmer as well. So
I am a third generation womanprogrammer, which I didn't even
realize until I actually gotinto into coding, and then
started connecting the dots. Butyeah, it's uh, it definitely
feels like I am, you know,fulfilling a legacy of some
(14:43):
sort.
But that's amazing to have, youknow, three women in your
family, three generations ofwomen who are in coding, which
is a male dominated field, whitemale dominated, like we said,
so. Your mom, your grandma mom.I'm assuming that they had at
some point said to you needs to,you need to go into programming,
(15:07):
you've got the brain for it.
It's so funny. So my mom, sheregularly tells me that my
problem is that I'm good at toomany things. And so for her, she
said, programming was a nobrainer, because that's the way
her brain works. She doesn'twant to be, you know, managing
(15:27):
people, she doesn't want to beout giving talks, she's like,
you know, put me in front of thecomputer, close the door, I'll
do what I need to do. Whereas Iwas singing, I was doing art
projects, I was kind of all overthe place. And so I think that
she hesitated to, you know, toreally steer me in one
(15:51):
particular direction. But I dothink that once I once I went
into programming, she, she feltlike I was coming home. You
know?
She didn't say anything. Shedidn't not even just once, like,
I told you, so.
I think the I'm sure the I toldyou. So that came out a little
bit. Of course, yeah.
(16:16):
That's awesome. So what you donow, though, is really
important, because you helpblack women really understand
their worth in their careers,and get more money. Right. So I
don't remember the exact stats.You may know this better than I
but I believe it was somethinglike 54 cents of $1. Ghost
(16:42):
versus white man. Yeah, so Iremember in about correctly,
black woman right now earn 58cents to every dollar white man
earns in the US. And this pastSeptember, it was September 21,
I think was black women's EqualPay Day? Because it would take a
(17:02):
black woman, nine extra months,a year and nine months to earn
what the average white manearned in one year. So yeah, we
are, we are we're fightingagainst a huge pay gap, and a
wealth gap. A generationalwealth gap, you know, these
(17:24):
issues really expand far beyondjust, you know, one person's
bank account.
Well, and that's reallyimportant, too, because so many
households are headed by women.And so it's not just the women,
rather, dealing with this. It'sthe children, basically, you're
not living the lifestyles thatthey should be able to live. And
(17:45):
we're not talking about buyingJordans and all that we're
talking about quality food,we're talking about quality
health care, we're talking aboutliving in a safe and clean
environment, or we're talkingabout going to better schools.
Because our school system isfunded primarily by tax dollars.
So if you're in a poorneighborhood, what happens your
(18:06):
kids don't get the sameeducation, the same
opportunities necessarily, askids wealthier neighborhood. So
when when you talk about blackwomen in particular earning more
money, you're really talkingabout uplifting future
generations as well. Absolutely,absolutely. So how do you work
with your clients? What kinds ofthings do you do with your
(18:28):
clients to help them kind of getover their imposter syndrome,
which they may be dealing with,particularly if they're in a
male dominated or white maledominated careers? How do you
help them? Just understand howmuch money is on the table? And
how to get it? How to put theirhands on it?
Absolutely, absolutely. So,gosh, a few things. So, you
(18:52):
know, just starting with theimposter syndrome. To me, I, I
really tried to push against thephrase know your worth, you
know, I think people use that.You know, to be empowering,
know, your worth, but in acapitalist society, I really
cringe at the idea of assigning$1 value to a human's worth, you
(19:17):
know, and so it starts with aconversation about the intrinsic
value that a person has beingUnlimited, there's no dollar
amount, no one owns you. Andthere's no amount of money that
could buy you. And so when youcome into it from that
framework, the no salary is toohigh. You know, and so that's
(19:40):
sort of where I, where I try tostart with my with my clients.
And you know, one example I liketo give is, I when I was when I
was an engineer, at one point Iwas making 100,000 a year. And
in my next role, I was reallyhoping to get 120 you I went
(20:01):
through the interview process,they came back with an offer,
the offer was 140. And my brainwanted to say, Yes, please,
thank you. But what I said waswhat I always say, so I don't
have to think about it. I said,Thank you so much, I'd love to
see a copy of the benefits andtake a day or two to think about
(20:22):
it. And that day, I read, Ithink it was a tweet, I read
somewhere that says black women,whatever you are going to ask
for, ask for more. And I thoughtabout if they offered me 140,
and they offered a white guy140. And I said, Yes, please.
Thank you so much. And henegotiated? Yeah, then we're
(20:45):
coming in uneven. And fromthere, every increase is based
on a percentage of what youcurrently have. So that gap just
gets bigger and bigger overtime. So you know, for me, it's,
you know, I don't like to answerthe question, right. In that
moment, I have the thing, I'mgonna say that gives me some
time. And then I recalibrate.Okay, yes, I was looking at 120.
(21:10):
But now that's not even on thetable. Now we're looking at 140,
what can I do from there. And,you know, through various
calculations, I decided to askfor another 15. And I got eight.
So I started in there at 148.And when I got there, there were
two other women who were underleveled and underpaid. And in
six months, when they got set upto their proper level, they knew
(21:34):
the number that I had. And theywere able to fight for that. And
so they both got brought up to148, as well. And so for me,
that's just a win across theboard. Right? Yeah. You know, so
I always try to think, you know,with my clients, I always try to
say, you know, because there isno number that's too high. You
(21:58):
know, we're going to come intoit, we're going to do our market
research, we're going to figureout what number we're hoping
for. But then once the actualnegotiation is happening, if
they say 200, if they say 300,there's no number where I'm
going to say, Oh, my goodness,thank you. And not negotiate,
because no company is coming inat the very top of their budget
(22:18):
on their first offer. Exactly.
Well, and that's reallyimportant for us to understand,
because if I had been in yoursituation, I'm not sure what I'd
have done, I think my head wouldhave blown off. They're coming
in $20,000, higher than Iexpected, being so prepared with
what you just knowing what tosay, makes all the difference in
(22:40):
the world. So it sounds likepart of what you do as you help
you help black women think aboutahead of time, what they're
going to say in thesediscussions, so that if
something great happens, orsomething not so great happens
in discussion, they're at leastprepared employees.
(23:00):
And not even just think aboutwhat you're gonna say practice
it, say it out loud. Because itis hard to say these numbers out
loud when they seem ridiculousto you. You know, when I was a
teacher, I was making $43,000 ayear. So to say to someone 140
Sounds great. But what I reallyneed is 155. I needed to say
(23:21):
that stuff a couple times.Before I could say it to another
person, you know, so some of usactually, say it out loud, get
used to saying these numbers.
Yeah. And then when you makethat kind of career switch
especially. Right, so that wouldgo for also people who are just
(23:42):
coming out of college wheremaybe they were just unless
they're like law students wherethey were making pretty good
money in their internships. Butif they were, especially if they
were doing free internships.First, you're working for free,
you're going to school, andyou're actually paying them for
the privilege of being them. Andnow you got to go into your
(24:03):
first salary negotiation. I knowI didn't negotiate anything. My
first time out. I just madepeanuts and was just happy to
have a job. Right.
Well, and when you come from asituation where you've only
worked hourly, even just hearinga salary sounds like a million
dollars. Yeah. Right. Whensomeone says, Wow, $40,000 That
(24:27):
sounds like so much when you'rethinking gosh, I was making, you
know, eight for seven bucks.Yeah, exactly. And so, you know,
and so that's why that themarket research and really
getting used to those numbers isso valuable because yeah, when
you're especially when you'rechanging industries, or you're
coming into it for the firsttime, those numbers sound really
(24:51):
big.
So you teach. It sounds like youalso teach your clients how to
do that market research where tofind that information so that
they can be informed and reallyeducated on what the, let's say
average salary for their role isin their, in your area.
Right? So yeah, I help them withthat research and also with the
(25:15):
mindset when they do find those,those ranges, because what a lot
of my clients will will do isthey'll do the research, and
they'll say, Okay, it looks likethe, the average is 80,000. So
I'm going to hope for 70. And Istart with 80, then is the
minimum, whatever the middle is,that's your minimum, because you
(25:39):
are not average, you are notbelow average, you are
exceptional. And coming into anindustry as a black woman and
having a perspective that noteveryone does, adds value. And
so for me, it's also yes, it'shelping do the research, but
then also adjusting the mindsetas you're approaching that, as
(26:03):
I'm trying to find my minimum,which is the middle. Right. And
so my range now, if I see thatthe middle is 80. Now, my range
is 80 to 100. Right, I'm notasking for 70 or 60.
Well, and that's, that'sinteresting, too, because now
with people working remotely, alot of the tech companies, at
(26:26):
least this is my observation ofthe tech companies in recent
years, or are very pleased topay you the wage for your local
area, as opposed to if you werein, let's say, Southern
California or San Francisco orsomeplace like that. Right. What
(26:46):
are your thoughts on that?Should the salaries beyond on
par with what they would haveearned? If if they were in San
Francisco? Or?
Oh, I have strong feelingsabout? Yes, I think that
companies that are going to bebased out of San Francisco
should be paying San Franciscorates to every one of their
(27:08):
employees, you know, to me, Idon't see a difference morally,
in, you know, paying someonelower because they live in
Texas, or because they live inIowa, as I do in outsourcing to
a country that doesn't have aminimum wage, and you're paying
(27:30):
now pennies to someone in youknow, in a foreign country, I
think both of those things arenot right. If you have set the
value for the work, that's thevalue. A lot of companies are,
are saying, you know, let's makethese adjustments for living,
you know, cost of living. ButI'm like, you're not setting the
(27:50):
initial salary based on cost ofliving. Right? So you're just
saying you, you're basicallytrying to get a discount based
on your, your perception of howmuch it cost me to live my life.
But though if I'm doing the samework as someone in San
Francisco, I mean that SanFrancisco money?
Well, you know, what's reallyfunny about that is living in a
(28:11):
major city. It's not thatdifferent cost of living these
days, there was a time where youcould say for example, if you're
in Atlanta versus San Francisco,that your rent was going to be
less than half, you know, third,you know, whatever, a quarter of
what it is up there, but thesedays, not so much. Right. I
(28:33):
mean, I'm not saying thateverything is that way. But
yeah,
well, I was at a company thatthey had different tiers, and
one of the tiers was for SanFrancisco and New York. And then
the next year was the rest ofthe country. And I'm like I'm in
Chicago. It costs a lot more tolive in Chicago than it does to
live in Boise. Right? It's notso yeah, I wish companies didn't
(28:59):
have those policies, I do findit can be a challenge to
negotiate against those.Especially depending on the size
of the company, they may may ormay not be willing to make
exceptions to whatever theirpolicies are. But you know, I'm
definitely open to helping myclients make the argument that
(29:20):
the work is the work this is thevalue you've assigned, and it's
not really your business howmuch my rent is.
There it is, because it's notright. You don't know You don't
know my life
we don't pay people based on howmany kids they have. We pay
(29:41):
people based on you know whatother expenses you know, Oh, do
you have a chronic condition? Wedon't pay people based on the
expenses in their lives. So Idon't see why location should be
different.
Well, you and I are on the samepage with that you just have a
whole bunch of like program likelogic behind yours. I just did
how But
(30:02):
it starts in the heart of thatjust seems unfair. But then my
logic brain is like, you know,and this is why?
Well, let me ask you, if youhad, let's say, three pieces of
advice for someone who's tryingto go into salary negotiation,
what would those be?
(30:25):
So you know, I actually have aframing my three secrets to
earning the salary you deserve.The first is believe it. So that
is, you know, work on your ownimposter syndrome, figure out
what all of the different assetsyou have to bring to the table,
and what makes you uniquelyqualified. So that's the first
(30:49):
one believe it. The second isshow it. So now that you know
how awesome you are, make sureyour manager knows make sure the
interviewer knows, you know,make sure the decision makers
know what an asset you bring.And then the last ones get it.
That's the do the marketresearch. You know, maybe write
(31:12):
out a script of what you'regoing to say, you know, that's
the actual now let's make theactual ask, now that we've all
established how amazing you are.
I'm a big fan of scripts, y'all.I'm a big fan, because it helps
you to really get something intoyour brain to read it to say it.
(31:33):
You know, and I mean, and thenyou feel more natural when you
do say it, even if you arenervous on the inside.
Right? And at the very leastsome bullet points on things you
want to make sure you don'tforget. You know, you would i I
am definitely the type of personwho, when I'm emotionally
charged in a conversation, I canreally lose my place and not
(31:56):
remember what I what I wanted toget across. And then I leave
that conversation like, oh, Ishould have said this, I should
have said that. I don't go intonegotiations with with the open
chance of maybe I'm gonna forgetwhat I wanted to say.
Yes. And everybody's carrying asmartphone. So there's no reason
not to have bullet points onyour phone and to feel
(32:19):
comfortable looking at them.
Yeah, I can even say let mecheck my notes and make sure I
covered everything. You know,it's not it doesn't have to be a
secret that you wrote some stuffdown. That just means you were
prepared.
Yeah. And being prepared isprobably nine tenths of things
when you're going just like youprepare for the initial
interview. Exactly. No. Awesome.Well, Team, please
(32:44):
tell everyone how they canconnect with you.
Absolutely. So the website isgetting black women paid.com.
And I would love to extend agift to your listeners. So if
they go to getting black womanpaid.com/the middle pod, I have
(33:07):
my FREE skills analysischecklist. And this is a series
of activities they can gothrough to figure out what are
those? What are those assets?What are those skills that they
bring? And how do they translateto high paying roles and high
paying industries. So you know,grab that and you can get on my
(33:30):
mailing list hear from me, Ihave tips and tricks that I that
I share with my with my, mynewsletter, and you can find me
at TMZ guess pretty muchanywhere. LinkedIn, Facebook,
Twitter, Instagram, teensieguess ti n e zek is
(33:51):
awesome. And y'all I'm goinggrab that checklist right now.
Like as soon as we're done here.That's the first thing I'm
doing. So make sure y'all grabthat. I love your URL getting
black women paid.com And thenthey're gonna go to slash the
middle podcast and get thatchecklist right. The middle pod,
(34:13):
the middle, Todd. Okay. Awesome.Guys, go get that checklist.
It's really important. You needto do that skills assessment. We
got to get these Dolla dollabills. I absolutely. Dean, thank
you so much for being onsomewhere in the middle with
Michele Barard.
Michele Thank you. It's kind ofthe light.
So that's our show this month,guys. You can reach me online at
(34:35):
Michele barard.com. You can alsofind me on Facebook, Instagram
and Tiktok as urban book editor,feel free to send in some topics
you'd like us to cover on theshow. Send me a note. I'd love
to hear from you. Make sure youtune into the show on July 21
when my guest will be massageand spa professional Galewood.
(34:56):
You can find us once a month onFridays at 5pm Pacific 6pm
Mountain 7pm Central 8pm Easternat the somewhere in the middle
podcast.com Let's continue theconversation. You guys be good.
stay mindful and remainprayerful. Peace and blessings
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