Ep. 80 Grahame Jones - Commitment to Conservation: A Game Warden's Journey and Legacy in Wildlife Protection - Son of a Blitch

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Son of a
Blitch podcast.
I am your host, george Blitch,and I just wrapped up a
wonderful conversation withGraham Jones.
For those who are not familiar,graham Jones was a game warden
here in the state of Texas forover 27 years.
The last few years of his jobhere he was actually the
director of law enforcement as acolonel, overseeing all the

(00:38):
operations and organizing thosefor the game wardens of Texas.
He's been a part of so manyother organizations Coastal
Conservation Association,backcountry Hunters and Anglers.
You know he's been the awardrecipient of the Sam Beeson
Conservation Leader Awardthrough the Texas Wildlife
Association.
There are so many differentorganizations he's helped lead

(00:59):
over the years.
We talk about that history of.
You know the organizations he'sbeen a part of in the past and
you know currently the rolesthat he has there in the outdoor
space.
He also is a guide for allwater guides.
He takes people out to enjoy thewaterways of Texas and the
rivers and the lake systems baseon today that I think are

(01:25):
important not just for Texansbut people all around the
country that want to really keyinto conservation awareness
education and I think that forthose of you who are listening
in other states.
Look for your stateorganizations that are involved
with really bringing aboutawareness and education in the
hunting and the fishingcommunity, because I believe
that there are so many greatplaces for you to get tied into

(01:49):
and really be able to see howyour membership maybe not even
just as far as funds, but youknow cleanups you know we talked
about there was a cleanup here.
He's part of that.
You know a couple of years agohad 22 tons of trash that they
cleaned up in the waterwaysystems, and that's a problem
that is not just here in Texas,that's everywhere.
We can all do our part to leavethings better behind for future

(02:09):
generations and I think thatit's imperative that you look
for those organizations aroundyou and, you know, have a good
sense of belonging and see howyou can go ahead and really help
preserve this way of life forfuture generations.
That's a big key in my podcasts, right as far as conservation
and awareness, and I think thereis very few people that can
speak to it on the level ofwhich that Graham Jones did

(02:33):
today in our conversation, and Ihighly encourage you guys to go
check out his website in theshow notes below as far as you
know all the things that he'sgot involved in and book a trip
with him.
Go out there on the water.
Think about this.
Who else can you sit on a boatwith, and learn from and with,
and have such a wonderfulafternoon or you know series of

(02:54):
afternoons than someone likeGraham?
I mean, what a wealth ofknowledge that he is.
I can't wait for my trip, andI'll be taking my family out
with him soon.
So, guys, go check that thatout and make sure that you're
following him on his socials forall the things he's got
involved in.
He really raises some veryimportant issues today and I
think that he's someone who is awonderful spokesman for

(03:14):
conservation in the state ofTexas and beyond.
So, guys, without further ado,here is my podcast with Graham
Jones.
I hope you guys enjoy and ifyou do like this, please
subscribe, maybe even share thisepisode with a friend.
I think everyone who willlisten to it will really find it
educational, entertaining andhighly enjoyable.
So, guys, thank you once againfor tuning into the podcast.

(03:35):
You guys have a great day.
Take care, hey Graham, how areyou doing today, man?
Good, how are you Good to seeyou?
Fantastic man, I'm glad to behaving this podcast time.
I'm sorry I had to postpone itlast time.
I had zero connection out atthe ranch and kind of figured,
let's go ahead and get this towhere we're not gonna have any
glitches and cutouts, becauseI'm really excited to chat with
you.

(03:55):
So look, you know, with a lot ofmy guests I kind of like to
start at the very beginning.
Let's go ahead and give alittle bit of background 101 on
you know where you're born andraised and kind of how you got
into your love of.
You know the wildlife and youknow fishing and hunting and all
that Texas has to offer.
And then you know we'll kind oftalk about your storied career
and kind of what you got goingon these days with.

(04:16):
You know your all water guidesand you know we'll kind of
thread that needle as we go.
So if you don't mind, maybejust kind of give us a little
background on you know, like Isaid, where you grew up and, uh,
you know your introduction intothe outdoors.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
You bet.
And also since and first of alllet me just say thanks for
having me and uh really beenlooking forward to this for a
long time.
I love following you onInstagram and listening and
watching sometimes your podcastsand you do a fantastic job.
I love how you you dig into theissues and just so wanted to
thank you for that.
And then, secondly, since youare interviewing me, you said
there won't be any glitches oredits, or there'll be a bunch of

(04:47):
glitches and edits that yourinterview would be, but that's a
, we'll get there eventually.
But, um, yeah, so grew up inHouston, I could literally ride
my bike to the Astrodome and Idid actually on on more than one
occasion.
Um, and you know, I mean myvery close family.
My dad is a mentor of mine.

(05:10):
He's living here in Austin, 95years old, my mom's 87.
So you know they're stillsupervising me on a on a daily
basis.
But he was not much.
He was not a hunter at all andyou know Korean war combat
veterans.
So there was, you know, he justdidn't.
His father hunted, but hedidn't hunt.
Um, both my grandparents hunted, by the way, my, my, both my

(05:33):
grandfathers hunted.
I never met either one of them,but I have lots of pictures and
and uh, and they hunted a lot.
So I've heard a lot of stories.
So it's, you know, it's in mygenes, but, um, he fished a
little bit and he would take,you know, we would do deep sea
fishing trips with my dad and mybrother and some friends and we
would do, you know, maybe oneof those every couple of years.
Um, but I was, you know, I was,uh, it was not a family

(05:57):
activity.
Hunting and fishing was not afamily activity.
Um, you know, we did otherthings but my dad worked a lot
and so it was just, it wasn'treally in the cards.
But when I was eight years old,some neighbors moved in one
house down and they moved infrom Mexico Carlos, dr Carlos

(06:19):
Vaccaro and his son Carlos Jr.
He had three sisters and I gotto know Carlos and became very,
very good friends with thatfamily and I was the third child
, and so you know what kind ofgoes on with the third child, as
far as you know what you canand can't do.
So one day, carlos and DrMcCarroll, I was eating lunch

(06:39):
over there, I was nine years old, and they asked me if I wanted
to go to Mexico on a dove huntand down to Tamaulipas and San
Fernando Valley in that area,and I was like there's no way
I've known y'all for less than ayear.
There's no way my parents aregoing to let me go on this dove
hunt with you guys to Mexico,drive to Mexico.

(07:01):
And so nine-year-old me walksdown the street, goes in the
front door and I asked myparents.
I said, hey, here's what'sgoing on.
Do you think would y'all bewilling to think about letting
me go on this dove hunt toMexico?
And within like 30 seconds theywere oh yeah, of course you can
go have fun, you know.
So the third child again.
But but yeah, that's thatreally when I look back on a

(07:23):
singular moment, but yeah,that's that really when I look

(07:49):
back on a singular moment, thatright there, and sort of the
preparation for that trip.
Still today, you know, doveseason's coming up on fast
forward.
Um, you know, we went dovehunting to mexico, sometimes
twice a year, every year, forthe next 16 years.
Um, when I was old, when wewere old enough to drive
ourselves, we would drive intomexico and go fishing camp at la
pesca and sotelo marina, uh, onthe beaches, at the passes, a
couple times a year.
And so you know, that's whatreally, if I had to nail it down

(08:11):
, that introduction through aneighbor into hunting and
fishing is really what set thefire.
And I mean, I can remember, youknow, driving back and kind of
towards the end, when I was 13,14, 15 years old, talking about
with them, about my wanting tobe a game warden.

(08:32):
So they're inherently tied.
And then we had a group offriends in Houston Carlos,
obviously, joseph Avery, barkleyRidge, obviously.
Joseph A-Bear, barkley Ridge,others that we hunted, joe McCoy
, we hunted.
That's what we did.
I mean, our spring breaks weresort of scheduled around fishing

(08:55):
.
You know we duck hunted, wedove hunted, we deer hunted,
just every opportunity, and wewere lucky enough.
I think then and we can talkabout this later then it was
sort of easier.
You know the access piece of itwas easier, um, you know you
had friends or maybe a relative,um, in some cases you could ask
to go hunting somewhere and youcould do it.
And although that's still maybethere's an element of that, I

(09:18):
don't think we're anywhere, youknow, close to what it was in
our late seventies and earlyeighties.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Well, even like I mean, I know that you got your
first deer around your 14th youknow birthday area, like you
know that's, and just throw adate, like you know, that's
early eighties there too, and Ithink since then we've had at
least double our population.
That was probably 15, 16million then, I mean, and we're
over that.
So that alone is, I think, onehurdle.

(09:47):
And then the idea of people whohave, you know, obviously a big
private land state like we havehere in Texas 95, 98% kind of
depends on where you look at it.
But uh, the data but it's.
You know, some people are alittle more closed off and
certain areas that used to beable to knock on the door and go
in, that may be more of achallenge these days than it
used to be.
So I know exactly what you'retalking about, coming from that

(10:07):
era and hunting, yeah, you bet.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah, I mean we would go down and hunt um this side
of Angleton.
We'd go down, you know, drivedown the old 288, the South of
Houston, and go hunting in thatarea.
We hunted in Fulcher.
We hunted out, you know, closein Katy, in all three of those
places that you know that wehunted, then are all either, you
know, subdivisions or businessparks.

(10:29):
Today every, all three of themare, are uh, and I don't mean to
be doom and gloom, but but Imean you know it changes and
evolves and so it is.
You know it is.
It is very different.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Well, I remember growing up in in Houston and you
know there was an era of timewhere I knew people had the
shotguns in the back of thetrucks and they would go and do
some bird hunting out in Katy,which is now basically West
Houston.
I mean, I'm out there, I see itevery day and it's.
You know, those areas of accessare much more.
You know few and far between,and some areas and Katie, there

(11:05):
there's nothing that used to bethere 30 years ago.
So you know that's a big changein the landscape and you know I
want to talk about that kind ofidea of, like, what we need to
conserve and stuff and we'llkind of, you know, get to that
too.
Uh, you know, you mentionedearlier on you, you found it at
this drive and this interest ataround 13, 14 years old, like
you were saying.
You were talking about wantingto be a game warden.

(11:25):
Obviously, you spent a 27 yearlong career there.
Uh, where Colonel you were, Imean, we're going to, we'll,
we'll, we'll bridge that gaphere in a second.
But I was curious, what was itthat first inspired you?
Was there a?
Uh, was there a particularindividual that kind of got you
into understanding what a gamewarden was, because some people
might, you know, growing up youmight get checked by a game

(11:46):
warden but really understandingwhat they do and the power of
that position, what was it thatkind of gave you that you know
springboard to want to gotowards that?
And then how did you eventuallydecide, and when did you decide
, that you wanted to become agame warden?
What did that look like in thattransition?

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, and I think that some of that you know.
It goes back to again crossingthe border with a limited doves
from Mexico and although theyweren't game wardens, it did.
You know, I learned age nine,10, 11, 12, that okay, there's
some sort of you know oversighton you know limits and how those
would apply.
And and then you know, there'sjust a lot of talk about game
wardens.
You know, sitting around thecampfire, around the deer camp,
everyone's, like you know,talking about game wardens.

(12:29):
Is that a game warden overthere?
Was that a game warden thatdrove by?
So it's that mystery thatalways, I think, was really
interesting to me and it waslike it's such a mysterious job
and person and it was almostlike a, you know, a phantom.
But I had, you know, back inthe day in Houston I had several

(12:53):
friends whose parents wereHouston police officers or in
other law enforcement activities, I mean, and there's some law
enforcement that goes way, wayback in my family as well.
But so there is that aspect ofit is sort of in the genes, like
like the hunting, fishing piece.
But, um, I think really it, it,it.
My brother went into lawenforcement.
Uh, he's four years older thanme.

(13:15):
He kind of had that lawenforcement drive.
Uh, you know, we were, we grewup on watching some of the law
enforcement old school sitcoms,you know as well.
And so I think it was thecombination of seeing and
looking up to people in lawenforcement with my love of the

(13:35):
outdoors and trying to make thathybrid approach, you know,
combining those two.
It just made sense.
And then I think, a conscious Imean a conscious decision and
again, I love when I hear aboutpeople, you know, I'm going to
go to college and I don't knowwhat I want to be.
That's great, I think.
That's.
I think keeping that being opento those choices and what might

(13:57):
come down the pike, or beinginfluenced by a professor a
certain direction is fantastic.
But in eighth grade I wrote apaper which I still have, about
wanting to be a game warden.
So I, you know, I all through,you know, really, high school
and in college I knew what Iwanted to, wanted to be, and and

(14:19):
then I got to know game wardensalong the way too.
I did internships in college.
But, um, you know people talkabout like this is my dream come
true?
Uh, and it was, it was a dreamcome true for me it still is.
Uh, it was absolutely anincredible experience and to you
know, to know seventh, you knowin seventh, eighth grade, that
this is what I want to do andthen to have that dream come

(14:41):
true.
Um, lots and lots of people, uminfluence that you know from my
brother, my sister, my parents,friends, uh, and it just I'm so
thankful for it, that um youknow, that they gave me the
flexibility and allowed me tofollow my parents allowed me to
follow my dream.

(15:01):
I mean, we live there, you know,in old Braeswood, as I
mentioned.
Parents allowed me to follow mydream.
I mean, we live there, you know, in old Braeswood, as I
mentioned, close to theAstrodome.
My dad was a lawyer and youknow the fact that they were
like you follow your dream.
That's what's important.
That means more to me thanreally, than anything.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Well, that's a great thing to be able to support that
.
And then you know what the oldsaying right you find what you
want to do and love to do everyday.
You won't work, but it's.
It is hard work, and especiallybeing a game warden.
And you know, I was curiousabout what that looked like for
you as far as where all in Texasyou spent.
I know you spent a lot of timeon the East side of Texas, but

(15:36):
kind of walk me through wheneveryou went.
You went to the academy in 93and then you graduated out there
.
And then what does that looklike as far as?
Okay, now you know you're green, you're out there I mean part
of the green line too, but youthink you're there.
And then what does it look like?
Where are you going and whatdoes the beginning of that
journey look like for you in thefield?

Speaker 2 (15:54):
yeah, well, I mean, I graduated from the academy and
when they interview you, youknow they ask you would you be
willing to go anywhere?
And literally I would.
I would go anywhere and uh,occasionally know someone will
sign up to be a game warden, andthen you hand them out the,
they get the duty assignmentsand they're like, oh wait, a
minute, you're sending me to ElPaso.
And I don't think so.
And so literally we've hadpeople resign the day of duty

(16:16):
assignments, not very, very,very rare.
I mean the far majority ofthese folks.
Again, this is a lifeaspiration for them.
But we've had that happenbefore and it was always so
shocking to me because I wouldhave gone anywhere.
But yeah, I took my 1989Chevrolet Caprice Back then we
had cars and I headed over toEast Texas, to Woodville, pretty

(16:40):
deep East Texas.
I mean Tyler County, not Tylerbut Tyler County, and I worked
that area, that County and somevicinity counties Angelina
County, jasper County, hardinCounty was a different district
but I was in touch and contactwith those guys in Hardin County
and you know, worked theNatchez River, the Angelina
River bottoms, sam Rayburn, danB, you know again, and there was

(17:03):
like there was duck hunting anddeer hunting and a little bit
of dove hunting.
If you found doves and someonehad a limit of doves, you better
check for bait on the ground.
I will say that.
But but yeah, I mean it wasvery.
You know, there's still dogrunning going on which was
illegal at the time when I gotthere and it.
It lasted a little bit longerand certainly in those eastern

(17:26):
counties Newton County andJasper County, more so than in
Tyler County, but it was stillgoing on While I was there in a
couple of adjacent counties.
Over again, morton's house wasactually burned down because of
the dog running issue.
But yeah, so that was, you know, east Texas and I still am in
contact with folks from TylerCounty.

(17:48):
You're talking about mentors.
I mean, back then we did nothave Parks and Wildlife, did not
have a field training officerprogram, so there was no formula
, you know, formal trainingprogram.
Once you now you stayed incontact with your captain and
other game wardens worked withyou and helped you and I had a
mike wheat uh who was theirfantastic person and we're

(18:09):
friends to this day.
He moved up to perrington uh inogletree county, up the top of
the panhandle, but um, after acouple years.
But, um, fantastic, I mean hehelped me, luke mcmahon, other
game wardens helped meextensively, um, but there was
no formalized, formal FTOprogram.
So you know, you rode with DPS,you rode with sheriff's office

(18:31):
deputies and they really helpedsocialize you into that law
enforcement.
Today there's a more formalprocess.
That's a very good thing.
But yeah, I mean, it was deepEast Texas and I loved every
minute of it.
And you look back on it and youthink when did you have the
most fun?

(18:51):
And that's when you had themost fun.
And it was just it'd be likeOctober or pre-deer season.
The first little northernpushes through.
You get in your car and youthink to yourself, where do I
want to go?
You know, do I want to go geton the river?
Do I want to pull a boat?
Do I want to go sit up on ahill and look for night hunters?
And it was just that sort offreedom that I think is in very

(19:17):
few jobs in law enforcement eventoday.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
What do you think was the most common thing that you
found as far as, like, wild gameviolations in that time period?
Was there something because Iknow you're mentioning river, I
know obviously you spend a lotof your time on on on rivers and
lake systems now with all waterguides but I was kind of
curious too was this somethingthat you found and were you kind

(19:41):
of patrolling all over?
Was or did you kind of have aspecification where you were
kind of doing more land-basedhunting, or was it fishing or
was it a combination for you?
And is that something that,whenever you become a game
warden, is there kind of atrajectory now that kind of
people do one or the other moreso, or is it all encompassing as
far as what you're seeing?

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Well, I think then again there was, and there still
is, freedom to some degree,maybe not as much as there was.
But yeah, I mean it kind ofdepended on the season.
I mean you had the whole countyand then you could go into
other counties if someone neededhelp or there was a call or it
was.
You know, there was a game,maybe someone was on vacation, a
game warden was sick orwhatever.
It was understaffed, and so youwould help out, like that.

(20:23):
But I mean really kind ofdependent on the time of year.
I mean you know, duck seasonopening weekends and we work
duck hunters, deer season, wework deer hunters.
Sometimes they overlapped, youknow, you'd get on the water or
the river or the lake and you'dbe working duck hunters.
But water safety also came intoeffect.
So but I will say something youknow to sort of talk about the,

(20:44):
I think I think like the mostcommon violations.
I mean there was a lot of youknow, water safety stuff.
But you know, hunting withoutlicenses, I think was more
common maybe then than it is now.
There's a lot of road huntingand a lot of trespass related
hunting, hunting withoutlandowner consent, people would
be dropped off.
There was a lot of that thatwas going on hunting without

(21:04):
landowner consent, people wouldbe dropped off, there was a lot
of that that was going on.
But yeah, I think that it'slike some of that still exists
and there's still that diversityof the job.
But with population growth,again we kind of touched on that
.
We can circle back, you know,after you know, depending on the

(21:26):
subject, but sort of populationalso dictates, like your duties
at times, and so you know,you've got opening dove season
coming up in a couple days, aswe mentioned, but you've also
still got water safety season.
So people are still out on thelakes and rivers and bays and
you've got fishing and all this.
So if you're, if you're, forexample, on a coastal county, um

(21:50):
, and it's that second split ofdove season and or maybe duck
season's going on, but it'sstill warm, I mean every it all
overlaps.
Um, there's not really aspecific focus as far as, like a
game warden, I'm going to focusjust on water safety, or I'm
going to focus just on watersafety or I'm going to focus
just on I'm talking about fieldgame wardens just on hunting.
You just there's just not thestaffing to do that, so you

(22:13):
really have to be kind of a jackof all trades and wear a bunch
of different hats and be readyto transition, because you also
get calls.
So you could be, you know,checking deer camps on opening
day of deer season and then youget a call related to a missing
boater, or you get a callrelated to you know someone
hunting off the road on theother side of the county.
So you have to be prettyflexible.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
And as far as, like when you were first doing that,
as far as communication lines, Imean, obviously we've got cell
phones.
Now, during that time, you guyshaving, you know, high-end
walkie-talkies, are you goingthrough and communicating
through your vehicle?
What is that mode ofcommunication?

Speaker 2 (22:48):
When I first went to work I bought one of those cell
phone bag phones with my own andremember it was like you paid
like per minute and it was likea dollar or whatever a minute.
And then they rounded up to thenext minute.
It was crazy fees.
So I was going broke, you know,paying, paying for my cell
phone and then also putting gas.

(23:09):
You know, we put it with thetime when we graduated, you got
$80 a month and that was for oilchanges, boat oil, boat gas and
vehicle gas.
Well, even at a dollar a gallonor $1.25 a gallon or whatever
it was, you could see how far$80 would get you.
So we were all putting, youknow, we were putting our own
money in the gas tanks.

(23:30):
And I remember one time I gotcalled into the office by my
supervisor and he said hey, Ineed you to explain something to
me.
I said, yes, sir, what's that?
He said, how are you getting?
I mean, I want to know so wecan get some help throughout the
rest of the state.
But how are you getting?
Like 270 miles per gallon?
And and I was like, well, I'vebeen putting some money in my
you know not not record.

(23:51):
I wasn't writing it down, I wasjust like putting 30 bucks in
the tank and I wasn't recordingit.
He said, well, if you're goingto do that, at least record it.
So you know I kind of gotchewed out a little bit, but he
knew we were trying to work andget the job done, so he wasn't
too hard on us.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
Well, you talk about that and that's a point I wanted
to bring up about the idea offunding and what's coming
through, because I believe asfar as Texas budget, the game
wardens are getting less than 1%or around that.

(24:28):
Maybe that's changedhistorically, but that was
always the number that I alwayskind of had talked to some of my
game warden friends and likethe idea of you know, there's a
lot of funding that comes fromother outside resources and
organizations and I, you knoweven like I'm thinking about
like gear up for game wardensand as far as some of the gear
that comes out, can you talkabout maybe some of those
challenges of you know thefunding aspect and maybe you
know, maybe things have changeda lot in more recent years and
I'm not a hundred percent sureon that, I'm not in that, I
don't.
You know, I don't have a reallygood footing to be able to

(24:53):
speak on that, but I was curiousif you could kind of talk to
that and kind of where some ofthat funding comes from and why
it's beneficial for things likeyou know, gear up for game
wardens, things that we can allget a part of and you know, in
our state and maybe other statesas well, if they have you know
similar organizations.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, I mean the.
The funding is an importantpiece of it.
I do think it's certainlybetter than it was Um, but, with
that said, it's still not youknow a hundred percent where it
needs to be.
Um, you know the legislativerequests that, uh, you know
we're about to start a sessionhere soon in January, and so
Parks and Wildlife willprioritize requests to the

(25:29):
legislature in addition to theirbase budget, exceptional items
that they deem are important,and part of that is certainly
gonna be game warden staffingand butt help with the budget.
I mean, at the end of the day,you've got to be able to do the
most basic job and that's, youknow, patrol the state of Texas

(25:52):
to protect our natural resourcesand people and water safety,
and you know all that jobencompasses.
So it's not where it needs tobe.
We do need the funding piecesis a big piece.
I will say that there areorganizations like Europe, like
Coastal Conservation Association, that have been long supporters

(26:14):
of Parks and Wildlife in manyways, but also including law
enforcement.
It would be hard to accomplishour mission without that outside
support, which you know.
I personally think it shouldall be funded through the state
budget.
I think that it's you know itshould all be funded.
You know it's important and wecan get to this of why

(26:35):
conservation and why it allmatters even to non-hunters,
non-anglers, non-boaters, butit's hugely important and I
think with the population growthit's going to be even more
important.
I think conservation mattersnow more than it ever has before
, and that's tied directly tobudgetary constraints.
You know, what can you do withwhat you have?

(26:55):
And the other piece of it isthat I'm super proud of is that
you know Parks and Wildlife notjust game wardens, biologists,
technicians, admin staff, youname it.
They and a lot of other stateagencies, I'm sure, do it too in
federal ways, but I've seen itthey make it work.
And so you know, game wardensare going to make it work, and

(27:18):
so you give them $80 a month forgas or you give them $350 a
month for gas, they're going tomake it work.
And so a lot of times, thefolks that control the purse
strings don't pick up on thatbecause it works.
And so it's like at what level,you know, are those folks
having to sacrifice or is theagency having to sacrifice to

(27:40):
get the job done?
And it just, it, just.
You know it's a um, a testamentto how hard and dedicated
people at Texas parks andwildlife are.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Well, you mentioned, like the legislative, you know
sessions coming up and differentfunding requests and things.
It sounds like you still haveyour finger on the pulse and I
know you're still involved witha lot of different organizations
and agencies that are involvedin trying to make sure that we
have the best for our state andour state resources and for our
population.
If you could, maybe you knowtouch to that a little bit.
You know what, becauseobviously I know you've worn a

(28:13):
lot of hats and so you knowthere's and the bio is very long
of all the different you knowgroups you've worked with.
You've done so much with somany organizations and I was
just kind of curious you know,when you left your career in
2020 and you retired from youknow your 27-year career as a
game warden, what kind of workaside from your guiding as far

(28:34):
as organizations were you reallyfelt called to be a part of,
and maybe you know why thoseorganizations are important to
you.
So, if you can, maybe go alongthat and so I'd love to thread
that needle.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
As far as you know conservation and the importance,
so if you can kind of, you know, go through that, that I'd love
to hear that, of course, andalso you know I do, my day gig
is I work for the 100 Club ofCentral Texas, which is a
nonprofit organization and itsupports first responders and
their families, very important,near and dear to my heart.
So it's allows me to be, youknow, connected on a daily basis
to first responders, of whichgame wardens are a part of.

(29:07):
So there's that piece.
But you know, really to me, theorganizational aspect of it as
far as conservationorganizations and associations,
groups, whatever, really goesback to CCA, at the time GCCA,
um, before I could drive, my momor dad or brother was dropping
me off at the West Houston GCCAmeeting.

(29:29):
Um, because I was, you know, onthe board.
Um, I'm sure they were all likewho is this kid and why is he
in here and we're all drinkingbeer and he can't even have a
beer.
No, I mean, they would havelike a beer during the meeting,
but, um, but it's like this kid,what this kid?
What's going on here?
So you know, kind of that to me.
I mean, that built thefoundation, and so CCA is

(29:54):
extremely important to me, italways has been, and then
ultimately I ended up somehow onthe state board for a short
period of time before I went towork for Texas Parks and
Wildlife, yeah, but I think, youknow, I think that it's so
important to find, for folks tofind, their sort of

(30:14):
organizational conservationorganization calling and where
they feel comfortable withwhether it's one or two or three
or whatever it is.
I mean, we've got all theseroads and paths to conservation.
Um, and it used to be goodenough and I've talked about
this before, but it used to begood enough to, you know, buy
your hunting and fishing licenseand that that money goes to,

(30:35):
you know, to fund conservationin various ways.
And duck stamps I mean, maybethe biggest conservation success
story ever was the federal duckstamp, but we could do a
separate podcast on that of howmany millions of acres that's
protected by hunters.
But, um, you know it's, it'slike what is the path?
Is the path cca?
Is the path flats, worthy, wildturkey federation, texas

(30:58):
wildlife association, texasfoundation for conservation,
backcountry hunters, anglers, oris it a couple of those?
And while all of those kind ofhave their lane, they
intermingle, they cross paths,they cross pollinate too.
And so now it's not just enough,in my opinion, for us to go buy

(31:20):
our hunting licenses, fishinglicenses, we have to get
involved, if only to send inmoney, because money, funds,
advocacy and membership numbersmatter.
And when the legislature or thefederal government is looking
at what agency or organizationsomeone who's providing

(31:41):
testimony represents, a lot oftimes they're going to look and
look at that membership, lookand see how much money they got
in the bank, look and see ifthere's a PAC related, and it's
just the reality.
It's the reality of how a lotof times it works.
And so those nonprofit dollarsthat support conservation, the

(32:01):
effort of Parks and Wildlife forUS Fish and Wildlife Service
Huge, I cannot say how importantthat is.
And if you look like sort ofmembership trends, membership

(32:22):
numbers, not across the boardbut in various organizations,
are slightly down right nownationally and across the state
we're seeing that not hugedecreases, like one to 5% maybe,
and so that's interesting too.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
I think now, when we need it most, we need to and I'm
speaking to myself is to becomemore motivated in these
organizations that support whatwe all love and hold dear what
do you think it is, far as um,you know I mean, you kind of
talked about it too Like you hada neighbor who took you out and

(32:55):
I think that that's somethingthat's.
It doesn't have to just befamily, right?
I mean, a lot of timeshistorically, you know, and the
seat I'm sitting in, it was afamily thing.
I learned to hunt and fishgrowing up with the family
because they did it and it was away that our ancestors did it
for many years before.
It's like so, like that issomething that was just kind of
built into my blood.
But I think that's.

(33:16):
You know, there's like umoutdoor stewards of conservation
foundation.
They have a thing it's like thetake with program, like take
someone with you, like dosomething to kind of show people
who may not otherwise havethose opportunities.
Uh, you know, I know, like mybuddy, doug Dern, sharing the

(33:36):
land.
There's things where it's likelandowners who need help.
Well, there's land accessseekers who they can work
together and have.
There's a lot of programs thatI see.
But I think it also isimportant for us individually,
as people who have very strongconnections and desires to see
this left better for those sevengenerations down the line to do
some other things, and I itsounds like one that you know
you're talking about too is thedollar.
I think another one is, you know, being able to show someone

(33:59):
what we appreciate as outdoorsmen and women, and you know, I
kind of wanted to throw thatthrough, like your, your work
now with you know, as all waterguides, and you're taking people
out and fishing and what do yousee?
Uh, you know firsthand fromexperiences where some of these
people may be going out on ariver or a lake system for the
first time maybe it's the firsttime fishing or first time to
really get a guide service towait, they can better understand

(34:22):
what it is they're looking for,where to cast, or you know what
time of year or what you knowtime of day or where to go, what
.
What are some of thoseexperiences that you're seeing,
maybe from the first timersperspective?
And what do you feel like is,uh, you know, an important thing
for us to be able to continuethat thread of getting new
people out in the outdoors.
Uh, cause, I feel like once youkind of get that, then that

(34:44):
click of wanting to pursue thismore and be more involved and
being more involved in theconservational aspects.
Uh, seems to be kind of an easyyou know roll through.
So I just wanted to have youkind of address that and what
you know what that's like fromyour perspective of seeing that
you know firsthand on on manyoccasions.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, I mean well, and I have seen it and, and I
love that piece of it becauseyou're living vicariously
through those people on yourboat and, um, you know, to have
someone and alvin, uh, dito hastalked about it before so, like
when someone catches their firstfish, it's like he's catching
his first fish again and, um,I've seen people catch their

(35:23):
first fish on lots of occasions,uh, both at parks and wildlife
and now Guide for All, waterGuides.
But I've also, you know, I'veseen the mother with the son.
You know that's when someoneshows up and it's like, hey,
this is John's birthday presentis to go fishing.

(35:45):
I mean that's sort of a bigresponsibility and it's it's not
necessarily about the successof numbers, but it's it's more
of, you know, of understandingthat the weight of that.
It's like this is a gift thatyou're taking this person
fishing, and so it's to try tomake that experience as, um, you

(36:09):
know, as positive as you can.
And there's been times where youknow I'll pick up on maybe an
introduction with someone overan email or a phone call and try
to fit, you know, we'll do alittle logistical call before
the trip and and they can, youknow they're saying, well, I'm
going to bring my 10 year oldson or my 10 year old daughter
and they've never fly fishbefore.

(36:29):
Well, I'm going to bring my 10year old son or my 10 year old
daughter, and they've never flyfish before.
Well, I'm going to, I'm goingto stick a spinning rod in that
boat.
Um, because you know, ifthey've never fished, I mean
let's, do we want to do a flyfishing lesson or do we want to
get out there and put our hand?
You know so, there's, there'sthat, and then there's a time
and place for both those things.
But I think that anything I cando to sort of take that pressure

(36:49):
off the angler, it transcendsinto a more enjoyable time, and
so it's really important.
And I think, too, it opens thedoor.
People will come out andthey'll say, hey, do you mind if
I mark these spots?
I'm like absolutely not Markthe spots.
I'm thinking about buying aboat.

(37:11):
What do you recommend?
Well, this is what I would do,based upon what you want to do,
and you know so we'll go throughthat.
There are no secrets, and I'llcome out and come fishing and
bring your kids.
I mean, you don't have to haveme, right, I'd love to take you
fishing.
But the goal, my goal, is tosort of you know some folks they
want a guided trip, they don'twant to own a boat, they don't

(37:32):
want to mess with all that it's.
You know, the happiest day iswhen you buy a boat.
When you sell a boat, right,right and boat acronym bust out
another thousand.
Okay, we're all that.
But there's also people that dowant to learn about sort of
boat ownership, where to go, allthese things, and I love those
trips too.
Sometimes we'll bring a map outand we'll talk about.

(37:54):
You know, this is why we'refishing here.
This is why we're fishing onthis point.
You know there's a blue heronover there and that's why we're
going to go.
You know all these differentlittle subtle pieces that people
, without being like preachy orbeing you, you know, in teacher
mode the entire time, because Imean I learn stuff every time I

(38:15):
go out and I learn stuff fromfrom the client too, lots of
times.
So I don't mean it's a one-waydeal, but it's just being open
to learning.
And um, you know people ask meto, uh, george, they'll be like,
well, what happens when you get, you know, the jerk client?
and to be, they'll be like well,what happens when you get the
jerk client?
And to be honest with you, Ihave never had that happen.
Folks that we take fishing thathave fished with me it's been.

(38:41):
I can't think of one clientthat I would not want to fish
with again and that's sort of ayou know.
I don't know if that goes backto the way that Alvin runs his
business and Lanay ran thebusiness as well, but it's
pretty incredible.
I mean, it's just, you know,anglers and hunters, boaters,
tend to be just a really goodgroup of people.

(39:01):
So anytime we can introducesomebody and then they catch the
bug like we caught the bug,more power to them.
And I think that you can look athunting numbers too.
I mean we've got like a million100,000 plus minus hunters in
Texas right now and you can lookat our numbers and you can

(39:23):
compare our numbers with otherstates, like per capita, per 100
residents and hunters in Texasright now, it's about four in a
hundred have a hunting license.
So you know four out of ahundred.
Um, and you know we're way downtexas per capita you'd thank
everyone.
In texas hunts we're number 35.
Um, you know, new hampshire percapita has more hunters.

(39:47):
Kansas has more hunters.
Oklahoma has more not notnumbers, but per capita has more
hunters.
Kansas has more hunters.
Oklahoma has more Not numbers,but per capita.
So as our population continuesto grow over 30 million, right,
and California's at 35 or 36million, we're going to surpass
California relatively soon.
Well, they're at, you know, 0.7per 100.

(40:08):
You can kind of see whatdirection, because we used to be
way up there in California,used to sell more fishing
licenses than anyone.
So you know, you can look atthese numbers and you can kind
of see what path we're on and Ithink that we do a pretty good
job.
These conservation organizationsthat I listed do a really,
really good job of getting theword out and bringing folks into

(40:30):
hunting or fishing.
Maybe that haven't done that,especially adults and different.
You know TWA concentrates onyouth and other organizations do
some adult mentored hunts andBHA and et cetera.
But I think we also need tocontinue to push and educate and
figure out how it all mattersto non-hunters and to

(40:51):
non-anglers.
Why are oyster reefs importantto a non-angler, you know?
Why is, you know, free-rangewild deer important to hunters?
And so you know, you look atthese issues and I think we've

(41:11):
got to do a little bit betterjob of flying that flag and
explain and then and then, inthe course of that, maybe you
bring somebody into the realm ofhunting or fishing.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Well, let's dive into that a little bit.
What do you think are some ofthose things that are so
important than how they affectthe non-hunter residents?
Um, and you know, I do want tojump into also the idea of, like
, how people can get involved ifthey haven't, if they are
non-hunters and wanting to getinto that or fish, because
there's a lot of programs wetalked about it, you know TWA,
tex Parks and Wildlife, youthHunting.

(41:41):
I know Steve Hall and I havehad a lot of thoughts,
conversations about thedifferent things that are going
on too and providing huntersafety, and I think that there's
a place for that too.
But I want to just kind ofpiggyback on what you're saying
there too and and hear yourperspective on why those things
are important for non-hunters.
And yeah, if you can kind oflead with that, that'd be great.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
Sure, and you know, I think that you know, you can
start with just let's just talkabout the oyster example and why
that matters really to everyone, non-anglers, non-fishermen,
you know the population of Texasand beyond, you know oysters,
the oyster reef, as we all know,and we won't, you know, get too
much into the biology of it.
But I mean, it protectsshorelines, it protects, you

(42:22):
know, from flooding andhurricanes, its habitat for fish
, larger fish species, it'sbaffles for other parts and
estuaries, and it all relates toclean water, the health of
ecosystems, the health of water,which and some could argue,

(42:44):
safety as far as the storms andhurricanes and storm surge goes,
the storms and hurricanes andstorm surge goes.
But it's, you know, it's, Ialways say, to quote, like my
friend Hal Herring, who yourpodcast and his podcasts are
probably the podcasts I'lllisten to related to
conservation the most.
But he, you know, he talksabout this clean water matter to

(43:05):
you, this clean air matter toyou, and if the answer is yes,
then conservation matters.
And that's the most you knowit's the most basic, it's the
most basic premise to publichealth, because you know we can
talk about all these otherprograms and everything you know
healthcare, education, thesebig, big, big issues that are so

(43:28):
important to our societyWithout a clean environment,
none of it, none of it matters.
And so you know you look atthese issues sort of on a
national, international basisand then you draw them back down
locally and you say, okay, whatare the?
You know, what are the bigconservation issues?
You know you take an issue like, for example, why does let's

(43:50):
just look at and the listenerscan do their own research on
Formosa?
I'm not going to say that youknow Formosa is good or bad, but
I can say that certainly youknow it's the largest settlement
in the history of the worldfiled by an individual on the
Clean Water Act as far as payoutwas by Formosa, and you know

(44:12):
that can be researched.
But the Lavaca River is a, youknow, a free-flowing river and
right now you know there's apermanent process to dam and
hold up a portion of that waterfor Formosa, for the Formosa
plant, and a lot, a lot of waterand which then goes into our

(44:34):
bay systems, and so it's acomplicated issue, there's a lot
to it, but what you know, whyon earth would we reward, you
know, a company that's has thelongest, I mean the largest,
clean water act settlement inhistory?
I don't know, but these areissues that I think are
important and should matter toeveryone.

(44:54):
Anglers are kind of leading thecharge on that, cca is leading
the charge on that.
Other individuals andorganizations are trying to
bring that up.
But it should be, you know, itshould be first and foremost on
everyone's mind because it'simportant, and so it's kind of
making that, crossing that intomainstream.
You know day-to-day life of whythat matters, because that

(45:17):
affects the health of the bay,that affects the reefs.
That again goes back to, youknow, to public safety and
public health.
So it's just trying to connectthose dots, you know, and you
can look at hunting as well andlook at correlations there.
You know, with and again Ithink that there's a lot of, you

(45:40):
know, very heated debates goingon right now regarding CWD and
I won't get into that, but Ithink that when we look at large
ranches and properties that arebecoming more segmented, you
know it's again goes back towhat we were talking about
before the podcast started iswhat it was, what it was like

(46:02):
when we were hunting.
And again, stuff changes,population grows, et cetera.
But you know what used to be5000 acres is now, you know, 15
ranches out 1431, and then halfof those have been put into
subdivisions.
So it's just sort of thinkingmore strategically on how we can
, you know, sort of curb growthin certain areas that are

(46:25):
important.
And then it relates also towater conservation as well.
I mean more straws, populationgrowth, increased temperatures.
More straws is sort of theperfect storm.
Less, you know, less, maybeless rainfall, although we had a
little bit today.
I mean, lake Travis is about 50feet low.
It's been, it's the sort of thenew norm and you look at all

(46:46):
the development around LakeTravis.
So it's maybe just being alittle bit smarter about our
water management too, and Ithink that also.
I mean, does everyone have tohave St Augustine grass?
I have St Augustine grass in myfront yard.
So I'm not trying to be preachy, but I'm just thinking should
we rethink some of what we'redoing and try to again, try to

(47:06):
mainstream some of these topics?

Speaker 1 (47:08):
No, it's a very good point.
I mean, water rights are huge.
I work in the water industryfor my day job.
You know I'm seeing that allthe time as far as how this is
affecting people and moreimpervious areas and more runoff
and more polluted waterways andthe different things that you
know there's.
As a private landowner, there'sthings that I'm trying to do to
be able to best utilize ourwater resources for our wildlife

(47:33):
habitat and I can do my ownpart in my, in my private you
know land sector.
But you know, a lot of timesand we have such a large private
land ownership here in Texasbut there's a lot of things that
I look at as, like you know,our public systems, like our
waterways, man, our lakes, ourrivers, our coastal lines, and
those are things that they do.

(47:55):
It's very important that we areall collectively thinking about
that on a larger scale.
Even if you're just a hunterand you don't fish like you have
to understand that everythingis connected here.
You know it's like the whole.
There's a term remember aLakota wisdom keeper that I used
to work with.
He's like we're all related,everything is anything, that we
are all part of this same system.
And I think, in a time where wesee A lot of things you

(48:17):
mentioned Some of the potentialdevastations and the you know
numbers and you know the newnorm of having 50 feet below I
mean it's crazy there's lakesand systems, river systems that
are completely dry.
That I knew growing up.
I mean even in Carrizo Springs,and you know where my family,
kind of you know, comes from, onyou know, my mom's side in that
area, my grandmother when shewas, you know, younger.

(48:40):
She's swimming in thesebeautiful clear springs.
There's none of those thereanymore and just imagine what
happens in one person's lifetime.
Yet alone will happen if wedon't make steps now.
And I you know, I don't know ifit's like the red alarm that's
going off.
Everyone's like it's theimportant time right now.
You got to do this now or youwon't have anything.
But we have to protect what wehave now in order for future

(49:01):
generations to enjoy and that'sthe thing I mean.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
You can.
You know, one of my senseis isDavid K Lankford David K
Lankford the TWA office is namedin his honor.
He knows so much as you knowabout water rights, the
importance of water, and he'sbeen keeping records on their
ranch.

(49:23):
Generationally has keptwaterfall records and well
records on their property andit's certainly not what it used
to be, and I think that's theother piece of this, is the, you
know, is the you know, just ingeneral sort of where these
wells are at historically, wherethey're at now in some of these
springs I mean there's, youknow, yeah, I mean the Llano

(49:46):
River, for one, the Blanco River, you know, when you go and it's
just completely dry and that'sthe norm is pretty scary, and I
know that things change andthere's ups and downs in
temperature.
I'm not saying to that, but Ijust think that the difference
is population.
The difference is how manypeople are utilizing well water

(50:07):
for their, you know, to sustaintheir house.
Many people are utilizing wellwater for their, you know, to
sustain their house.
Um, you know, and all thedifferent, all the straws,
because you can look backhistorically and look from 1950
on and look when big rain eventscame and where lake level was
and how the time period it tookfor that lake to get down to a
certain area.
Now it's occurs much, muchfaster.

(50:28):
So that just demonstrates theadditional straws, the tens of
thousands of additional strawsthat are pulling water out of
our rivers, of the wells of ourlakes.
So I think that's the bigdifference in all of this is,
you know, again, that strategicplanning and how we're going to

(50:49):
manage water moving into thefuture.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
So yeah, Well, you know you, you kind of talked
about that when you were, youknow, talking about just like
the oyster systems right theretoo, and you were recently, you
know you're, you're part of nowon the board with the TW TPW
oyster advisory committee and,you know, was this when some of
the things you just spoke to isthat some of the things y'all

(51:14):
are talking about within thisorganization right now, and are
there some other things that youthink are important?

Speaker 2 (51:16):
to kind of bring to the forefront.
Yeah, I think that oysters area big topic right now in texas
and and um you know I work withI'm proud to work with parks and
wildlife and a couple fronts.
One of them is the coastalresources advisory committee and
one of them is the oysteradvisory committee Committee,
which I'm just extremelythankful to be associated with
those folks.
But when you look at oystersagain, you look at okay, well,

(51:39):
there's recreational harvestwhich is very limited.
You can't sell.
If you and I went oystering,certain areas couldn't be in
restricted waters.
It's pretty cut and dry.
Certain areas can be inrestricted waters it's pretty
cut and dry.
Not very many people go out andrecreationally harvest oysters.
Really, pretty much it's leases.

(52:01):
You've got the private leases,leases that they own the lease.
They don't own the water or theground but they own the right
to harvest that particular areaand if you're not the
leaseholder you can't harvestthere.
And then there's our publicoyster reef systems that are
given numbers and throughout thedifferent bays systems.

(52:22):
So the third way is oysterfarming, which is fairly new to
Texas and has really been aroundonly a couple of years now.
But it's growing and it'sgrowing pretty quickly, I think
there's eight or nine more inprocess and as far as in the
process of being permitted, inaddition to what's already been
permitted.
So I think it's, you know, notto get a little bit off topic

(52:46):
there, but I think that, as faras what the committee is going
to talk about is, you know, waysto compromise, for I don't mean
compromise like values orcompromise conservation, but to
find ways that we can look atthis sort of, again,
multifaceted approach to wherethere's going to be a portion

(53:08):
from leases, there's going to bea portion from public groups,
there's going to be a portionfrom farms, oyster farming, and
figuring out where all this, youknow, ends up.
And looking at other states thathave been doing the farming for
a long time, or states thathave rebounded their oyster
population, that have, you know,gone to rock bottom and then

(53:29):
made their way back up.
And you look at some that have,you know, gone to rock bottom
and then made their way back up.
And you look at some of thoseyou know around Chesapeake Bay
and areas like that.
But yeah, I mean it's theoyster reefs, as I mentioned,
affect everything in the baysystem.
So, you know, if we have a reefthat 100 years ago, you know,

(53:49):
was eight feet tall and was thesize of six football fields, and
now it's the size of twofootball fields and it's one
foot tall.
Well, we're heading the wrongway.
So we've got to figure out theanswer.
And the commercial oysterindustry is an important
industry.
There's industry, there'speople that have been working

(54:10):
for generations and they workhard and they're good people.
Okay, but we've got to look atways to ensure that they stay in
business and we don't destroyour resources in the process.
So it's that it's finding that.
It's finding that ground thatworks for everybody but, most
importantly, works for, you know, works for, works for

(54:32):
conservation and for the and forthe oyster, the mighty oyster
nice.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Well, you know when you're talking about that.
It kind of reminded me therewas a conversation I remember
tuning into a while back whereyou and jt van zandt were
talking about the idea of, um,you know when and you touched it
a little bit earlier whenyou're like fishing, there's a
lot of people who the success innumbers, right.
Some people are like, oh, if Ididn't, you know, hit, get,
catch my limit, it wasn't reallya good day fishing, and I think

(54:59):
that that's um a dangerous wayto view that, because really, um
, you know, I've gone flyfishing, uh, one time, uh, and
I've've practiced before, but asfar as successfully, and I
caught one little trout, and itwas catch and release, and I
can't tell you how monumentalthat moment was.
It was, it was one of thosebucket list items and you know,

(55:20):
since that day too, it's likeI've wanted to go back and book
another trip and I look forwardto that.
I'm I spend, I've been on acouple boats that have, uh,
broken down in the middle of theocean.
So my wife and my family arelike I don't know if we're
should be going fishing with you, cause I kind of have some bad
luck on the water.
I think I'm meant to be a landman but, uh, as far as, like, I
love that and just the peace,the serenity, um, just the, the

(55:45):
challenge, the experience thatcomes from that.
But what I found, too, with alot of uh, my friends that are
fly fishermen, was the idea ofyou know, you, you may take, you
know, one uh or or two of yourfish, but you're not trying to
limit out.
There's something about, uh,you know, keeping that balance

(56:06):
in play and not just going aheadand taking all that you can,
Right, and I think that's animportant thing to look at.
And I was, you know, I kind ofwanted you to talk about that
idea of you know, really theimportance of that experience,
maybe over the importance of thenumber.
Obviously it's great to tocatch a fish and, and you know,
cook that for your friends andfamily.
But I think you know I wantedto have you kind of talk about

(56:30):
the idea of like, when you'reguiding what is some of those,
you know the ethos of that andtrying to maybe capture more of
that experience than more of youknow the full, cooler and what
is important to you in as far asthat is concerned, maybe, Sure,
yeah, and a couple of things onthat.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
I mean, you know, tom McGuane, in one of his essays
back I think in 71, you knowwrote about, and I won't give
you the entire synopsis, butbasically drew the connection of
, you know, gathering, hunting,catching something and consuming
.
That is inherent to sort ofbeing a human.

(57:08):
It's important to being here,keeps you connected, right.
And so, you know, gardeningdoes that.
You know you could do thatthrough fishing, you could do
that through hunting.
So I'm certainly not opposed tokeeping, you know, fish, or two
, or even occasionally,depending on the fish species,
you know, keeping a limit offish, um, but it's certainly not

(57:30):
, uh, why I go fishing and it'scertainly not what got me into
fishing, uh, or or hunting, um.
And so I, we went up tocolorado a couple weeks ago and
we met a couple that was there,we were overlapping, we kind of
planned a couple daysoverlapping, um, and so keith

(57:51):
Langford and I went fishing withanother friend who was a
retired game warden, jeffGilliam Waters.
We went up into the WilliamsCreek, up above Pagosa, and I
mean in the middle of nowhere.
We never saw another angler andeveryone caught, you know, a
couple of small brook trout ondry flies and we didn't catch a

(58:12):
gazillion, I think.
I caught two and Keith caughttwo and Jeff caught one or two.
But you know, it was just thatmoment and the beauty of being
in the moment and the friendship, and even though you know we
were kind of hop, you know wewere jumping ahead of each other
, someone would fish 100 yardsand then someone would jump up.
So there were times where youdidn't even see your, your buddy
, and all of a sudden I heardaround the corner.

(58:35):
I heard like, yeah, you know.
So I just put my rod down,literally, ran back and saw
Keith and he's got hold on thisfish, you know, and he was like,
literally he said his quote wasthis is this is this is like
the day of the year.
And so in that moment with thatbrook trout that's like six

(58:56):
inches long, you know, and it'sjust the totality of the
circumstances and the beautythat sort of overcomes you.
And I've seen that time and timeagain.
I was on Lake Decker yesterdaymorning and kind of some clouds
were rolling in and the fish hadbeen schooling, the black bass

(59:17):
had been coming up a little bitbut they hadn't been staying up
long.
They come up and then they godown like a group of 15, 20, 25
fish chasing shad, and it's sovisual because you're seeing the
.
You'll see kind of the, thenervous water, and then you'll
see a shad pop up, a couple ofshad, then you'll see one fish
hit and all of a sudden it'slike boiling water and the?

(59:37):
Um, josh shepherd, who wasfishing with me, uh, he had, he
hadn't, he hadn't seen thatbefore.
He's fished a lot, he's beenaround a lot, but he hadn't
specifically seen black bassschool, like that.
He ended up catching one, youknow, and so I was like that's,
that's pretty cool.
Um, so you know theaccomplishment in the, in the

(59:58):
moment of the day.
It's like, you know, did you,were you, did you learn
something about your cast, ordid you learn something about a
specific fly?
Or did you see, you know theblue heron, or did you see the?
You know the, the, a giantalligator, gar or whatever it is

(01:00:18):
.
It's like just understandingand being open to that.
You know, I, I joke around andI say that, um, that fly fishing
is like the yoga of fishing,like the yoga of fishing, but I
think in some ways it kind of is, because it's not, you know,

(01:00:40):
and I don't exclusively fly fish.
I mean, I fly fish a lot but youknow, I get out and sometimes
to pot around seashore or I'llgo fishing with a buddy and I'll
pick up a bass rod.
I'm fine with that, but I do, Ido love to fly fish, and there
is something different about it.
I think everyone always says,well, the biggest difference is
your fly lines, you know,casting the fly and regular
fishing, your lures, castingyour line.
To me, and that's all true Ithink the biggest difference is

(01:01:04):
when you set the hook on a fish.
You are holding the line andyou are physically, you know
you're setting that hook with abait cast or spinning rod.
You're just, you know, pullingback on the rod, right, so
you're in contact with that fishwith your hand on the line.
That to me and you talk aboutthe, the, the soul and the

(01:01:26):
fishing, or the ethos, orhowever you want to put it that
to me is you're connected tothat fish and it's very
different.
And it's like sometimes youmiss them or you set your rod
wrong, whatever you do, andthat's hey, that's part of it.
Yesterday morning I missed likeI don't normally fish when I'm
with a client.
But this was not Josh.

(01:01:46):
We were friend fishing, youknow Right, and so I was fishing
a little bit.
I miss like three fish but, youknow it's just part of it and
you know the fish, the basscomes up and you see it all and
you get all excited.
I still get excited, I mean,when those fish come up on top
and I see that school a hundredyards off, I get so excited I
can barely talk and I'm, likeeveryone, put your you know race

(01:02:17):
off to try to get to them, youknow.
So I, I mean I, I still havethat love, I still have that
excitement and and I want theyou know, I want the clients or
the friends or whoever I'm withyou know, to feel that too.
I think that they do.
And this deal about you onlyfly fishing one time.
I'm looking at my calendarright now get you up here and
get you, get you fly fishing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Um it it was.
We were over on the on theTaylor river, near the Gunnison,
and it was, uh, one of the mostamazing experiences.
Uh, my wife got one as well.
Uh, we were there with with myfriends, matt and his wife
Elaine, and they everyone, Ithink got one that day and it
was.
You know, it was justabsolutely one of the most uh,

(01:02:52):
profound times on the water thatI've had.
I've had some amazingexperiences with wildlife, uh,
throughout the country and mytravels and from hunting or, you
know, doing photography orvideography, but catching that
and just being there and seeingit and and it was one of those
things that I was like it's amoment that will ever, forever,

(01:03:13):
be ingrained in my mind, as youknow, because there was a lot of
challenges before that, thatfinally successful moment and it
was kind of that aha, like,okay, I get it, I understand
this.
And this idea, too, where youknow a couple of my friends,
what do you mean?
You couldn't keep it.
I'm like no, when you, you knowyou've got a guide there.
There's certain circumstances,right, if you're on your own,
you can go ahead and keep one,but the goal wasn't for me to do

(01:03:34):
that.
I mean, I'd love to go aheadand catch the fish that you know
, or eat the fish that I catch.
I like being able to know wheremy food comes from.
But there was something knowthat experience behind Cause.
If we're always in a consumptivemindset, uh, whether it's
fishing or whether it's you know, wild game on land and we just

(01:03:55):
take, take, take, take, takeyour.
By you taking, you're notleaving that experience for
someone else and you have to bemindful about that.
I think it's an approach thatis very important for our
conservation, and the morepeople we can bring into this,
uh and and have them get thatexperience is paramount.
I think that's something thathaving those types of

(01:04:16):
experiences really, I think youknow inside our own systems, uh,
is something that connects youto that will make you want to
conserve that, and I thinkthat's it.
You know that whole idea ofbringing someone with and you
know having to take theseexperiences.
You know we've talked about youknow whole idea of bringing
someone with and you know havingto take these experiences.
You know we've talked about,you know, a minute ago too.
There's youth hunting programs,there's adult hunting programs,

(01:04:36):
if there's, you know, if youwant to get into this or in
fishing if you want to get intothere's.
There are state sponsoredorganizations, uh, you know that
are all throughout here andother states too, you know, for
people who are listeningelsewhere, look in to see,
because there are organizationsthat are out there that can help
, you know, guide you, uh, getyou into the outdoors.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
And there's, and there's other outlets too.
I mean, you, you think you lookat the example, look at the loco
trash bash or some of the someof the cleanups that are going
on, like the Colorado rivercleanup that that uh well, lene,
you know, ran forever and nowAlvin's taken over.
Um, that you know there'll be acouple of hundred people that
come to that and I have seenwhere, you know, a family will

(01:05:19):
come out, like the family unit,the kids and the mom and the dad
are there and they're pickingup trash along the river and and
it helps build that connection.
And then all of a sudden,sudden, you, you sidebar with
them and they're like well, doyou, you know, do you have you
ever fished?
And then it, you know, itsegues into something else and
before you know it, you know,they've got a couple of kayaks
and they're on the lowercolorado river themselves or

(01:05:42):
they go to the lana or san sabaor whatever, and when, when
there's water and and they're,and they fish, and, and so
it's's like there's a lot ofdifferent ways to get those
roads that we were talking aboutand those paths to get into
these hunting, fishing, camping,boating, birding, hiking,
whatever.
There's doors.

(01:06:02):
We just have to figure outsometimes where those doors are
to open up, and the groups thatwe're talking about, that you
mentioned, are doors.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Well, and you mentioned, too, the idea of that
trash cleanup.
I think it might have been afly fishing group that you had
done a speech with and you weretalking about just the idea of
how much cleanup.
I believe in one of those therewas like 22 tons of trash that
was picked up in that.
If you can imagine that folkslike how much trash is in our

(01:06:38):
waterway systems and obviouslyhow that affects so much of of
of our our amazing species thatare through there, uh, and how
much it is important that wepick up the trash.
I mean I mentioned them beforejust because I'm friends with
Jim Kerkaruto and, like OutdoorStudents Conservation Foundation
, they'll send you out thesebags and he has a big initiative

(01:06:58):
.
It's like pick up your trophytrash and so they'll send you
these bags out and you take themwith you whether you're hunting
, whether you're fishing, hiking, whatever it is.
I think it's important for usto go ahead and clean up these
environments and be the stewardexamples, uh, because when
people see you do that, they'regoing to get inspired to do it.
They're're going to be like, oh, what are you doing?
Oh, I'm picking up trash.
Well, it's not my trash, butit's someone else's trash.

(01:07:21):
I think that collectively, maybethat mindset is something that
can hopefully expand otherpeople around you and we need to
do things to clean up ourwaterways.
I see so much pollution andit's super important.
And even just on our ownprivate land you know, I've
talked to you about, and I youknow having a place in South

(01:07:41):
Texas the amount of trash thatcomes through because people are
coming through, and that's awhole nother topic.
I won't get into that.
But the idea of, like, whenpeople come through, they're
leaving their backpacks behind,they're leaving the trash behind
water bottles, and there's somuch stuff that it's like it's
it's just our private land.
There's so much land that'spublic land and waterway systems
that are embedded with trash ofall types, and I'm not talking

(01:08:04):
about and you mentioned privateland a couple of times.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
It's like the dove hunting lease program that Parks
and Wildlife does, thatpartners with private landowners
and again nothing in Texas isaccomplished without private
landowners regardingconservation.
It's a partnership that's beengoing on since the inception of
Parks and Wildlife Way before.
That is, you know, is the waythat people feel about their

(01:08:29):
land and their willingness andwant to protecting that property
and so hugely, hugely importantpiece of it.
But it's like some, sometimesthese, you know it's like people
go out, they do the dove hunton a, on a on a public area, and
you know you look around andyou see all the shell, all the
shotguns spelt spank casings.
There's some initiatives rightnow that are happening with some

(01:08:51):
conservation organizationswhere they're going out and
picking these up.
You know picking it up, they'rehaving a cleanup day so that
other landowners might be moreopen to, you know, leasing their
property.
I mean who wants their propertytrashed?
Right and again, huntersgenerally do not do that, but,
as we all know, you know some do, and so it's just the little
things it's like.
If you do hit the land, if youdo hit the Devil's River, take a

(01:09:14):
trash bag with you, collect.
If you see a bottle, even ifit's not yours, pick it up.
You know someone may see you doit, someone may not see you do
it, but it's still the rightthing to do.
So you know that that it's likewhat can we do?
What's in our control?
Well, you know, whether theFormosa gets the permit may or

(01:09:35):
may not be in our control, butpicking up this trash and
helping to keep the ColoradoRiver clean, helping to keep the
dove hunting areas that we cancontrol and I think too it goes
back to these grassroots effortssometimes.
Sometimes they evolve into abigger issue and then someone
sees it or hears about it and itjust keeps going.
We can't underestimate just thepower of the individual

(01:09:58):
sometimes is my point.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
No very good point.
Um, you know, before we we signoff, and I want to have a uh, a
second podcast with you wherewe can kind of cover some other
things we talked about, causethere there's so much, uh rich
conversation that we can have.
Um, and you know, I uh lastcouple of questions I had, you
know, one of which was you know,when you ended up I think it

(01:10:21):
was in 2017, you were named thedirector of law enforcement in
Texas, and so then, at thatpoint in time, you got, you know
, you're pinned with yourcolonel badge.
You are then overseeing I thinkit was like 550, uh something,
uh Texas parks and wildlife lawenforcement divisions, and I was
kind of curious about whatthose years were like for you

(01:10:43):
when you were ahead of it.
What, what was like that day today?
And you know and I also kind ofwant to maybe talk about a
little bit with your you workedwith a lot of different agencies
, right, and I think there wasan interview where you talked
about the idea of lawenforcement being a team sport,
and I think you know that's.
Those are a couple of thingsI'd like for you to connect on
how you see fit, but I waswondering about that.

(01:11:05):
What was that?
What that was like for you tothen be bestowed upon that honor
and what those you know whatthat meant for you.
What it was like for you on aday to day and kind of after you
know a long career of being agame warden.
What it was like for you on aday-to-day and kind of after you
know a long career of being agame warden.
What it was like to be theColonel and be the head of
things.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
as far as you know, texas game wardens is concerned,
sure and great.
You know I love talking aboutthat and the team sport aspect
of it.
I think and I'll answer yourquestion, but I think that
conservation is a team sport too, right, and and so you know we
have, there are all theseorganizations and they all have
there's room.
You know it's like there's roomfor everyone is my point.

(01:11:45):
And so again, back to whateverpath you choose, we want you, we
want you in the conservationrealm, whatever it is.
But back to your question.
First of all, it was.
You know I mentioned early onhow becoming a game warden was a
dream come true for me, and youknow when that badge was pinned
on, when my wife pinned thebadge on my chest at the

(01:12:07):
ceremony, um, I mean it was.
I can't even use the word dream.
I have to say surreal.
Yeah, because it was.
I mean it was.
It was surreal.
My daughters were there andfriends were there and, um, yeah
, it was a, it was a big deal.
It was a big deal for me, um,and just the opportunity to work

(01:12:27):
with the men and the womendirectly in the law enforcement
division, um, the hardestworking people that I have ever
met in my life, and then theother, the other divisions
within Parks and Wildlife.
You know the other agencies andorganizations, obviously, but

(01:12:52):
you know I got to that positionnot because of myself.
I got to that position becauseof other people and who I
surrounded myself with and whohelped me during my career.
And I don't want to read thelist, but because it's so, it's
so long and I don't want toaccidentally leave somebody off.
But I can tell you that I justlearned early on, regardless of

(01:13:14):
what the issue is is, and thiswas how I was socialized into
law enforcement and, obviously,my parents and how I was raised.
And I'm so far from perfectit's not even funny Deeply
flawed.
I make mistakes every day, butyou've got to be positive.
You've got to wake up in themorning and be.
You're going to have bad days.

(01:13:35):
We all have bad days.
I have bad days.
So it's not I don't mean likeevery single second.
You got to be jumping up anddown, jump roping and smiling
Right, but overwhelm,overwhelmingly.
You need to be positive.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
you know on an average day.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
you need to be positive and it's okay to think
critically.
And I was sort of raised tothink critically.
Why are we doing this?
To get to there?
What's going on?
Ask the questions.
Don't be afraid of thequestions.
If you ask a question, I'mgoing to answer it.
But it's not okay to be a cynic.
And I have a friend who sayshe's a cynic but he's not a
cynic and he knows who he is.
I hope he's listening becausehe says he's not a cynic and he

(01:14:16):
knows who he is.
I hope he's listening becausebecause he says he's a cynic but
he's not, because he lovespeople so much and he's always
laughing and smiling, but healways says, oh, I'm a cynic,
well, no, you're not.
So it's not okay to be a cynic.
It's okay to be, you know, tobe a critic and to think about
things and have this dialogue.
And critical thinking isimportant and when I say critic,

(01:14:37):
I don't mean like nitpicksomebody, I'm talking about
critical thought.
But yeah, I mean and that wassomething as Colonel that you
know.
Again, there were far betterColonels than I and there will
be better Colonels than I, but Ialways tried to just be as open
as I could, and you know, thinkthrough processes.

(01:15:00):
We looked at a lot of processesand we worked through a lot of
conflict, and I say we, not I,because it was you know senior
staff and executive director.
You know Carter Smith and othersenior staff and folks over at
you know conservationorganizations Again, I lean on

(01:15:21):
CCA a lot, and then otherorganizations at the time that
we were working with lawenforcement agencies.
That and people you know a lotof times don't understand,
especially in these rural areas.
The game warden's office is atthe sheriff's office.
Okay, so it's a little cubicleor a little office or a little
desk there.
Sometimes in the largercounties you don't have that as

(01:15:41):
much as you do in the ruralcounties, but I would venture to
say probably 85, 80% of gamewardens offices are at local
sheriff's departments, and so,right then, you're learning real
quick how important thatrelationship is.
You know I talked about using myown credit card and filling my
tank of gas.
When Sheriff Hennigan fromTyler County, who's passed now,

(01:16:05):
heard about me doing that, hesaid hey, he called me on the
radio at 3319.
He said, you know he was one.
He's the sheriff, he's the highsheriff.
He said one to 3319.
Yes, sir, why does the sheriffcall him?
I've obviously done somethingwrong.
So he says meet me overso-and-so.
So I meet him.
What happened to be thelocation for the county uh gas,

(01:16:26):
the big bulk fuel station?
He gave me a key to the gastank and he's like I don't want
you putting your money, your ownmoney, in that gas tank anymore
.
And so you know I'm sure thatit was 1993, I mean, I'm sure
now violates all kinds ofwhatever I don't.
you know that the statute'sclosed yeah, but the point was

(01:16:47):
is that it's it's aboutrelationships, and that's a very
basic example, but it keepsgoing, you know, and whether
you're talking aboutrelationship with Parks and
Wildlife as a whole, with theCattle Raisers Association, or
as a whole with TWA, or as awhole with another state law
enforcement agency or a federalUS Fish and Wildlife Service or

(01:17:12):
a river authority, it's theserelationships that, you know,
they keep it moving and the mostand a lot of times.
What was interesting, george, isthat you know, I met and got to
know folks in differentdivisions when I first went to
work and like we would carrybiologists out and do like help

(01:17:33):
them, get them, you know,somewhere we do a duck count
together, we do something thatwas kind of like you weren't
really supposed to like talk tothe biologists, you know it's
like we're law enforcement, youknow, and so that opened a lot
of doors.
I mean, clayton wolf was thebiologist in jasper when I was
in tyler county and then heultimately became the division

(01:17:54):
director of the wildlifedivision.
We were working together, sideby side up in Austin, and so
throughout our careers, here weare again and I think we see
that in relationships and inlife all the time, and so, again
, that's helped me, you know,more than anything, in addition
to just working with incrediblepeople and working for

(01:18:16):
absolutely incredible people.
It was being the director oflaw enforcement at Parks and
Wildlife was.
I mean, it's hard to fight theemotion, as you could probably
pick up on earlier, but it was abig deal to me and still is.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
Well, you know, I thank you for all your service
and all your continued, you knowservice and all your continued,
you know expansion of theseideas and philosophies and
thoughts and actions andconservation, and in throughout
our state.
You know, I highly encourageeveryone to take a look at it.
In the show notes I will havelinks to.
You know kind of just a storyof your history and who you've,

(01:18:51):
you know, worked with and been apart of, and so many
organizations and agencies thatyou still work with, and I think
it's important, especially forthose here in Texas that are
listening, to go and look atthese and, you know, become a
part of these organizations, asyou can, or learn about them and
see what they're doing, becausethere's really some great ones
out there.
They're doing some amazingthings that are really helping
uh in in unseen ways, sometimesin many seen ways, uh, but I I

(01:19:16):
highly encourage you guys to gocheck that out and I thank you
for all that you've done uh forour state and for these
organizations.
You know, along those lines too,I was kind of curious.
You know what it is that youthink about your own, uh, you
know, professional and personallegacy.
Is this something that you kindof think about as far as the,
the impacts that you've had andthat you continue to have and

(01:19:36):
that you want to have, are thosethings, uh, you know, in the
forefront of your thought andhow you kind of address your
day-to-day, whether it's, youknow, your work that you've done
already with Texas parks andwildlife.
Uh, as far as you know being,uh, you know, a game warden for
all these years and and alsowith all water guides and
guiding people and you know,through your own guiding
services and you know I'll haveyou, you know, leave some links

(01:19:58):
and things here in a minute onthat as far as where people can
follow you and get involved and,you know, book a trip with you.
But I was curious really aboutyour idea of legacy.
Is that something that you know, you think about and, if so,
how is it that you approach that?

Speaker 2 (01:20:11):
Well, let me first say that you are.
You know you were thanking mefor all this.
First say that you are.
You know you were thanking mefor all this and I want to thank
you because you know you are astoryteller.
You know podcasts on paper,video, whatever the media is you
are a storyteller and you'vealso you've done you've hands on

(01:20:32):
, you know hands on doneconservation efforts and work.
But without a storyteller,without someone who is bringing
these issues and bringing us tothe forefront and educate you're
an educator People are going tobe like well, I watched this
podcast and I feel dumber nowthan I did because I was on it.
But you are, you're an educatorand I want to seriously tell

(01:20:57):
you how much we I mentioned myColorado trip and we listened to
several of your podcasts on theway up there and the whole
family was listening to them andthen they would start
conservation and light a sparkabout something or talk about
another issue or whatever it is.
So just thank you for what youdo, Seriously Thank you.

(01:21:17):
As far as my legacy, I got to behonest.
It's not about me.
I don't.
I don't really.
I don't really think about mylegacy.
I just, you know, I think aboutthe future and I think that I
think that the legacy is goingto be our kids your kids, you
know, the kids of list oflisteners is going to be our

(01:21:39):
kids, your kids, you know, thekids of list of listeners.
Um, you know, it's like againthe doom and gloom stuff when we
talk about population growthand the lake being low and all
these negatives.
And then we think about ourkids and we think about, oh my
gosh, they're so much smarterand they're like more engaged
than we were and they're doingthese things and they're
bringing this to the forefrontand they're talking to their
friends about these, theseissues.
So I'm just super proud.

(01:22:01):
I have hope.
My friend, river Horse Nagadate,which which I, which I I really
want to put you guys togetherIf you haven't already talked to
River Horse, but he'll, he'llcheck me every once in a while
and he'll bring me back in,he'll lasso and he'll like pull
me back in and he'll be likeGraham, you're kind of going

(01:22:22):
down a little bit of a negativeroad on doom and gloom,
conservation stuff, and so he'slike you gotta show, you, gotta
remind people to be hopeful andthat there is hope, because if
there's not, then what are wedoing this for?
Why are we doing this if there'sno hope?
And so there, I think that allyou know again, it's not about

(01:22:43):
me there's no legacy other thanhaving hope in this next
generation and knowing thatwe're not done yet.
I don't mean like we're hangingit up you know, you're younger
than me, but still but we're nothanging up, we're not done yet,
but, um, but just being hopefulof the future and the future in
conservation, and and knowingthat, um, you know, there

(01:23:06):
there's a whole nothergeneration that's, that's coming
and it cares and it's going tobe so engaged it's going to make
us look like, you know, wedidn't know what we were doing.

Speaker 1 (01:23:18):
Well, I mean, well said man.
I think that that approachesthis idea too of, like our, our,
our roles then as we get, youknow, older, as you have these
experience, to be able to mentorpeople.
And I think that is a very,very important thing that if you
have.
There was a lady I met many,many years ago, um, who talked
about this idea of being aconduit, not a catcher's mitt.

(01:23:40):
If you have a wonderful thingsthat you're learning, you don't
just catch it and hold on to ityourself.
You have to be a conduit, youhave to be able to explode that
out to other people and sharethat.
And I think, personally, that'skind of where I feel like I'm in
my hunting world now.
It's like I would rather see anew hunter, whether it's a child
, whether it's an adult, be ableto experience that, whatever

(01:24:03):
that is, that first day in thefield, that first time of seeing
that deer, the first time ofharvesting something and cooking
your own meals for your friendsand family, whatever that is.
It's so much more important tome than having my own personal
experience and filling a freezerWhile I.
It's so much more important tome than having my own personal
experience and, you know,filling a freezer.
While I love to do that Don'tget me wrong I love to eat wild
game.
We have, you know, mutualfriends like Jesse, who have

(01:24:25):
amazing you know cookbooks thatyou can follow along the way,
and it's, it's a great journey.
But being able to help bring upthat next generation and to
keep that hope alive in thatstring of, you know, amazing
experiences going is veryimportant.
So I echo that for anyone whowould love to book a trip with
you and be able to experience,you know, whether it's through

(01:24:48):
your your own, you know GrahamJones, you know you know out
adventures and you know I'llhave links down below for that
or through all water guides,what is the best way for them to
follow you, and also yoursocials too, for people to kind
of see what you're involved inand what it is that you're
helping to put out there in theworld.
Where are some places peoplecan follow you in this journey?

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
Yeah, so if you, uh, if you do want to want to get
out there and do a little flyfishing, or, or, or, you know
fish, however you want to, youcan book a trip through, uh, all
water guides.
And, uh, you know, social media, instagram, big presence on
instagram, alvin does afantastic job with that and uh,
I'm graham l jones on instagramtoo, so you can, you can get on

(01:25:27):
there and follow me and as well.
And, um, um, you know about 90related, but there might be some
obscure post that gets on therefrom time to time.
But I enjoy social media.
You know everyone's kind ofanti-social media, but I enjoy
it.
I think it's a good way toconnect with people too, and

(01:25:49):
it's a good way to stay informed, I think, too, on issues
relating to conservation.
So, you know, I think if we useit for the right purposes, it's
gotta and also, I mean it'sit's a great way for us to, like
you know, stay connected aswell.
I mean we it's.
You know I get go to your pageto go to your latest podcast is
the easiest way for me to do it.

(01:26:10):
But, um, but yeah, I mean booka trip, all water guides, but
I'd love for you to get on thereand look me up as well.
And we can, we can, we canshare, share things on social
media, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:26:20):
That's great.
And then what is your ownpersonal website?

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Uh, it's grahamjonescom, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
Cool.
Well, I'll have all the linksbelow for everyone to check out.
Um, and you know all theorganizations that we talked
about today.
We want to highlight all thoseDefinitely everyone.
Please look at the show notes,check out these links, go to
them, see how you can getinvolved and how we can continue
this goal of great conservationand hope alive for future
generations in Texas and thewhole country.

(01:26:47):
Graham, thank you so much forjoining me today.
I look forward to having youback on again and I look forward
to getting on the water withyou.
Man, let's go do some flyfishing together, huh.

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
Hey George, I appreciate it.
Good talk to you, reallyenjoyed it and I can't believe
an hour already went by.
But, like I said, I'm at yourservice, let's go fishing.
And just again, thanks foreverything you do.

Speaker 1 (01:27:07):
Thank you as well, sir.
We'll be in touch soon.
You have a good afternoon Seeyou, we'll see you next time.

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Ep. 80 Grahame Jones - Commitment to Conservation: A Game Warden's Journey and Legacy in Wildlife Protection

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 80 Grahame Jones - Commitment to Conservation: A Game Warden's Journey and Legacy in Wildlife Protection