What role did the American Chestnut tree play in the culture and ecosystem of the US, and how can its legacy be revived for future generations? Rex Mann, our passionate guest and a veteran forester, brings his unique perspective on this monumental challenge. His vivid tales of Appalachian life, as seen through the eyes of his father—a preacher and logger—highlight the pivotal role the chestnut once played before a devastating blight almost wiped it out. Inspired by these stories, Rex dedicated 42 years to the US Forest Service, and now shares his insights on the cultural and environmental impact of the tree's decline.
Together, we investigate the broader implications of ecological threats and the ongoing battle against invasive species. Through historical anecdotes, we discuss how early settlers inadvertently saved some chestnut populations by transporting them to the West Coast, away from the blight's reach. We also explore collaborative efforts in restoration, including breeding programs with resistant Asian varieties and partnerships with Native American tribes.
Indigenous knowledge is invaluable, having been cultivated through generations of observation and interaction with the land. The partnership formed to restore the chestnut tree not only serves ecological purposes but becomes a bridge for cultural understanding and preservation. As forests recover, so too can cultural practices related to those forests, offering a vital connection to ancestral traditions and educational opportunities for future generations. The potential to combine restoration efforts with the preservation of tribal languages and customs creates a holistic approach that honors the past while building towards a sustainable future.
As we face new dangers like sudden oak death, the conversation emphasizes the importance of learning from the past to safeguard North America's natural ecosystems.
The episode concludes with a hopeful look at the intersection of traditional wisdom and modern science. We spotlight the groundbreaking advances in genetic modification aimed at saving the American chestnut and the vital contributions of indigenous knowledge in conservation. This dialogue is a call to action for ecological responsibility, emphasizing that preserving our natural world is both a privilege and a duty. By weaving together stories of legacy, innovation, and cultural preservation, we're reminded of the importance of leaving a meaningful legacy for the generations to come.
The American Chestnut Foundation
https://tacf.org
To learn more about George Blitch, visit:
www.SonofaBlitch.com
www.AmericanMadeMaps.com
IG: "thesonofablitch"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hey Rex.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah, I'm well, sir and George, it's a pleasure to
be here, pleasure to see you andmeet you.
And George, it's a pleasure tobe here, pleasure to stay here
and meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yes, absolutely, it's an honor for me, man, we've
been connected through your son,scott, who I had on the podcast
, and he's like I think you'regoing to need to chat with my
dad and so you know we've hadsome phone calls and bringing us
here and we've got some greatthings.
We're going to talk about theyou know restoration of the
(00:50):
chestnuts.
We're going to be talking aboutworking with native tribes and
the things that we can docollectively together to make
sure that we are saving ourforests for future generations.
And so I think at the beginning, like, uh, if you can tell me a
little bit about how you, youknow where you grew up and you
know, maybe talk about that dayaround that campfire that you
kind of saw something with yourdad that kind of changed your uh
trajectory and what you wantedto go in and work with the
forestry service, if youwouldn't mind.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Sure, I'll do that.
I uh, I grew, I'm a product ofAppalachian and uh and uh, we'll
talk about the Appalachian uh,uh residents and the little uh,
the society they built there inthe Appalachians.
And but I am product of thatand uh, I grew up, uh, seeing
(01:33):
chestnut in the woods.
My dad, uh, who was educated inthe first forestry school but
he had a sixth grade educationthe old Baptist preacher,
preacher, he, uh, he, uh, hetold chestnut stories all the
time because chestnut americanchestnut composed about the one
(01:58):
out of every five trees thatgrew in the Appalachian
Mountains all the way toPennsylvania and New York.
It was then.
And my dad saw that forest ofhuge chestnut trees when he was
a kid.
He hunted in them and he knewthe tree.
(02:22):
Later in life he was a loggerand he really got to see how the
chestnut dominated the forestand its value to, beginning with
the indigenous people, thenative people, but also the
settlers.
The trees would easily grow 100foot tall.
(02:47):
It was often called the redwood of the east because the
wood was so rock resistant.
They used it for everythingfrom cradles to coffins.
But every year the mostimportant thing was it produced
a huge crop of very nutritiousAmerican chestnuts that fed
(03:14):
everything in the woods,including deer bear, a few bison
that were running through themountains up there, and the
people, both the early Caucasiansettlers and the tribal people,
and they depended on it.
They realized the value of thetree and so I grew up hearing
(03:38):
chestnut stories.
My dad witnessed the black.
The American chestnut's beenaround for 50 million years.
It originated in Asia and in1904, back up a step, the
landowners and the farmers andthe poor mountain people and the
(04:00):
farmers and the poor mountainpeople, every fall they would go
into the woods, the wholefamily with tow sacks and they
would gather chestnuts by thebushel, take them to the country
store and swap up for thingsthat they had no money to buy.
(04:21):
These were poor people, but apair of shoes for the kids or
coffees, things that theycouldn't produce.
And so my dad saw that come inand the chestnut was brought in
on.
The chestnut blight, which is afungus, was brought in on some
(04:45):
Japanese chestnuts and theJapanese chestnuts had the block
and they were brought into NewYork City near Brooklyn and
immediately the large chestnuttrees began to die.
This fungus was on the trees.
(05:06):
It quickly attacked thechestnuts.
That was in 1904.
Between 1904 and the end of theSecond World War, 1945, between
four and five billion Americanchestnut trees died.
(05:29):
And if you I figured it up onetime if you could lay these dead
chestnuts end to end, it wouldcircle the globe one and a half
times.
So it was a huge.
It's been referred to as thegreatest environmental disaster
ever to strike North America,because the forest changed
(05:53):
completely when I went to workwith the Forest Service.
Let me back up a step.
You asked that question when Iwas growing up and, by the way,
if you want to do, I did a TEDtalk about I don't know, early
70s.
That kind of told about myyouth growing up with my dad and
(06:19):
how I got into the chestnutthing.
But my dad, he was just anold-timer.
We had no television when I wasgrowing up, we just poured us
church mice and so our pastimein the wintertime was to gather
around the old wood stove thatheated the house and my dad and
(06:42):
other old folks who probablycome visiting would tell stories
.
And just from the very beginningI noticed that all these
stories somewhere or the otherended up mentioning Chestnut,
american Chestnut, and thesimple reason was it was such a
(07:03):
huge part of the life of themountain people of Appalachia,
it defined their quality of life.
They were subsistence farmersbut and they my dad tells a
story of when he was a young manhe and a cousin who had an old
(07:27):
T-model Ford would load that oldFord down with sacks of
American chestnuts and severaljugs of genuine moonshine
whiskey and they would drive toWashington DC.
And this was common practice atthat time.
Country people would bringchestnuts into the big cities,
(07:51):
have a way to roast the thingsand then sell them on the street
.
But where my dad really madehis money was selling a little
jug of moonshine whiskey to washit down.
Got to have something to washit down.
Sure, yes, exactly right.
But they did that for years andhe would tell that story.
And just just the stories hetold, uh led me to become a
(08:16):
forester and uh, uh.
And when I started work and Iworked 42 years with the US
Forest Service and almost all ofthat I did firefighting man I
did a huge amount of forestfirefighting for about 30 years,
(08:37):
mostly in the West, but in therest of the year I was just a
forester and I managed wildlifeand timber and everything else,
but the woods at that time werefull of standing dead chestnuts
(08:59):
and we called them gray ghostsbecause the wood decayed you
like to never decayed, you knowand it would stand for decades
and we call those old deadchestnuts gray ghosts and, uh,
you still see a few of them outthere.
But uh, I had an opportunityearly in my career to watch the
(09:22):
forest change and it changedfrom one that was dominated with
this huge tree, americanchestnut, and when they all died
out it was red maples or shrubtrees that took over and the
change was dramatic and theAppalachian people saw all that
(09:46):
happening.
My dad witnessed the changes init and he'd talk about when
that blight hits that the localpeople would say surely it would
kill all of them, you know, butin fact it did.
All of them, you know, but infact it did.
(10:08):
There are very few survivinglarge trees anywhere in North
America.
Now that escaped the blind.
The largest chestnut trees inNorth America are on the west
coast Washington, oregon,northern California, idaho and
this is because the earlysettlers, when they migrated to
the west to find land, theycarried chestnuts with them
(10:33):
because they thought so much ofthat tree.
They were mostly mountainpeople from Appalachia and they
carried these chestnuts, plantedthem all over oregon,
washington, idaho, and thethings prospered because the
blight had had come in throughthe new york harbor and it never
(10:53):
reached that part of northamerica.
So these trees were huge outthere and they're the largest
chestnuts in amer and in theworld today.
But I grew up hearing thosestories and after about 20 years
I heard about this organizationthat was doing research to
(11:18):
restore the chestnut and thiswas 20-some years ago.
As it ended up, I started achapter of the Chestnut
Foundation in Kentucky where Iwas working as a forester at the
time.
I have been in that, devotedall of my retired years working
(11:43):
to restore that tree and, crazything I did a TED Talk.
I was able to get the agreementstarted with the Eastern
Barrens, the Cherokee Indians,and then when I got into that, I
really was carried away withthe thought of involving the
(12:07):
tribal people in the restorationof the chestnut.
What did in all these trees andthe same thing in Texas is we,
the citizens of this wonderfulcountry?
We ignorance prevailed when itcame to what happens when you
(12:32):
bring a strange disease or astrange insect or a strange
plant and drop it in our woodsor get it started, and the
native growth has never met thatthing.
They've never been around itand they died like flies man and
within just a period of about30 or 40 years we wiped them out
(12:59):
and they still sprout.
They're a prolific sprouter andthey still sprout.
They're a prolific sprouter andthe fungus, for whatever reason
, is unable to kill the roots ofthe tree.
There are other fungi in theground that attack that thing
(13:20):
when it gets in the ground, butthey've never been able to come
up.
Use this as a treatment.
But the trees are prolificsprouters and you can still find
dozens of hundreds of thesesmall chestnut sprouts in the
forest.
We use them in our breedingprogram because we've got a very
(13:41):
active breeding program.
It's showing a lot of promiseand we cross pure American trees
that we find like these littlesmall chestnut sprouts, and we
cross them with the Asian treeswho, over the eons, develop a
resistance to the blight, as wecall it.
(14:03):
But in order to restore a treewhen we bring in, we now know
ignorance prevailed forcenturies and we immediately
started to kill off not onlytrees and shrubs.
Today we're losing all of ourash trees, about 8 billion of
(14:26):
them all over the United Statesfrom an insect we brought in.
We've lost numerous other trees.
Butternut or white walnutdisappeared a long time ago.
We're losing hemlock trees thatare necessary if you want to
have trout fishing because theyfurnish a deep shade, and the
(14:51):
trout we have, if that water'snot certain cold temperature
they won't reproduce.
But the hemlock is dying.
Oh man, we're losing Americanelm.
We've've already lost that,that's exactly right.
But today we know the impact ofthis stuff.
(15:16):
But the other thing we did withour early settlers we brought
all of our domesticated animalsinto the country and the North
America and turned them loose inthe woods.
And all the farmers just lookedon the forest as open range and
they would take their cattleand their pigs and notch the
(15:38):
ears so they could identify them, turn them loose during the
growing season and through thefall into the forest and they
would fatten up and get readyfor the winter by eating
chestnuts.
Then in the fall they would goround up these pigs and drive
them back to their farm and killthem, you know, for their
winter food.
But when we brought thoseanimals in and turned them loose
(16:07):
, beginning in 1492, whenColumbus made his first trip, we
finally developed wooden shipsacross the Atlantic Ocean and he
went to the Caribbean and hehad his on his three ships.
(16:28):
He had them loaded down withpigs to feed his sailors.
Well, the pigs all had swine fluand every every disease that is
fatal to humans, includingCOVID.
They first find a host that's awild animal birds or some kind
(16:57):
and in the case of pigs, swineflu was found on wild pigs.
And then over time, because thesettlers lived so close to
their livestock that thosediseases were able to jump from
(17:20):
wild animals to domesticatedanimals.
So when Columbus came to theCaribbean, we turned loose not
only swine flu but smallpox,chickenpox, mumps, measles,
things that none of the tribesand at that time they estimate
(17:44):
there were at least 50 to 55million Native people in North
America, south America and inthe Caribbean.
Within 200 years, 90 to 95% ofthose folks were dead because
they had no resistance to thediseases and they died like
(18:06):
flies.
So today, even with our work,we've learned that if you don't
restore a tree, the first thingwe have to do is to develop a
native tree that's similar tothat thing, that can withstand
the diseases that are alreadyhere, because once those things
(18:29):
come in.
They don't leave, they're hereto stay.
And it's like the chestnutblight was able to jump to oak
trees and it will not kill theoak trees but it allows the
fungus to reproduce and throwout spores.
(18:49):
And, as luck would have it, onthe west coast in northern
california and southern oregon,there is a disease that was
brought into that part of thecountry called sudden oak death.
And this stuff, I don't knowwhere it came from Asia, I'm
pretty sure but it has killedliterally millions of oak trees
(19:14):
in that part of the world, inCalifornia, not if that thing
makes it to the east or the restof the United States, but when
it has the potential, the restof the United States.
But when it has the potentialand it's been, they've tested
this in labs it has thepotential to kill all the oak
trees remaining in North America.
(19:35):
And what we lost with thechestnut tree would pale in
comparison to what that stuffwill do once it's turned loose.
So the bit we're where wefinally are reaching a point
where we've had some scientificsuccess.
The only answer to bringingthis stuff back is through
(19:59):
science and technology.
You know and this is especiallyimportant to me because in the
past 10 years I've had threeepisodes of cancer, starting
with prostate cancer, startingwith lymphoma 17, 18 years ago,
(20:25):
and it was type 4 lymphoma.
It was in my bone marrow butthe oncologist was able to drive
it into remission with somereally harsh chemo so I went on
with my career.
But about two years ago I had areturn visit of that lymphoma
(20:52):
and it usually hits you whenyou're young and the experts
believe that most people catchit from using Roundup you know
the stuff we spray the weedswith.
Oh yeah, and that's likelywhere I got mine.
But they drove it intoremission.
But when it came back it was avery active cancer that attacked
(21:18):
the stomach and the intestinalarea and I was feeling really
bad.
But I had a PET scan that wentto an emergency room and my
stomach was just full of tumors,one of them the size of a
(21:38):
softball.
And so my son, who's retiredfrom the military, helps me in
all this restoration stuff thatI do, lives in Florida and he
has a buddy he served inAfghanistan with who was kind of
chief of staff of this MoffittCancer Center, so he got me in
(22:03):
there and they have some reallycutting-edge technology.
They call it CAR-T and what itis when that cancer, that
lymphoma comes back, itimmediately spreads all over
your body.
But they've worked out aprocess down there where they
(22:27):
this not a very pleasant subject.
They put a little uh tube in myjugger vein, removed almost all
the blood in my body into thislittle machine that I sat on the
floor beside and that thing hada device in there that made the
(22:47):
whole machine spin and theywere able to separate out all
the white cells in my body,thousands and thousands of them.
And as near as I can tell.
The only purpose and one ofthose white blood cells is
called a T-cell, and the T-cellsonly purpose for being in our
(23:09):
bodies is to attack and killcells that should not be in
there.
So what they did?
They collected all the T-cellsin my body, sent them off to a
lab this is controversialgenetic modification in
Baltimore, maryland.
And they changed that thing.
(23:31):
They genetically modified it byadding genes from some sort of
chemo so that the only cellsthat T-cell would attack were
the lymphoma cells that I had inmy body.
And the way they modified it.
(23:52):
It has the ability to seek outthese cancer cells, attach to
the top of them and then killthat cancer cell, goes through
it and kills the cell.
Kill that cancer cell, it growsthrough it and kills the cell.
And they also had these thingsmultiply greatly.
They're able to do that withtoday's technology.
(24:12):
So instead of thousands thatthey took out of my body, they
put in millions of them and theyput those things back in my
body.
And I still have to have a PETscan every 30 days and they give
you this radioactive stuff thatmakes all the cancer cells
(24:34):
light up.
You know, whenever they gothrough a PET scan and they
could see immediately that thesethings started seeking out,
hunting for the cancer cells andimmediately killing them, one
at a time.
And the last PET scan I had Iwas cancer-free and this thing
(24:57):
has become a cure for thisreturn visit of lymphoma, which
normally hits people who havehad it before, but when they're
old and I just got turned 80years old about a year ago but
it has developed into a cure.
But it has developed into acure whatever the thing is that
(25:49):
kills them.
And in American chestnut we hada couple of scientists up at
Syracuse that discovered thatthere's a number of plants, one
of them being a wheat plant, acommon wheat plant that we make
bread from, and this wheat plantis attacked.
When the chestnut blightattacks a chestnut tree, the
(26:15):
blight puts out oxalic acid, avery powerful acid to kill the
trunk of the tree, and then thefungus eats it.
You know fungi eat dead wood,so death is very quick whenever
these things get established.
But they were able.
(26:36):
They discovered that this wheatplant was attacked by the same
type of disease, produced oxalicacid, but that particular plant
had developed an element in thegene that neutralized oxalic
acid.
So it was like vaccinating achestnut tree a chestnut tree,
(26:57):
because with today's technologythey can take that gene from a
wheat plant and insert it in thegenome of a chestnut tree.
And so we developed thesethings and the federal
government's got to approve them, just as they have to approve
this stuff that cured mylymphoma, but it's very
(27:20):
controversial but it also isvery effective.
You know it's it's uh, there'sa lot of resistance that that
that comes into that chestnuttree and it looks very, very
promising.
We could bring back the treewith this use of science.
So we're still working veryhard at that.
(27:45):
We're doing just traditionalplant breeding, just like we
also do with corn and beans andany other vegetable, and we're
having some good luck because wetry to capture as many of the
Asian tree genes and resistanceto the disease and we're having
(28:08):
a lot of luck.
But some of it is verycontroversial.
The genetic modification intoday's world is very
controversial.
The genetic modification intoday's world is very
controversial and they accuse usof playing God.
You know, they accuse thescientists of playing God
because you take a gene from oneliving species and insert that
(28:33):
in a completely different livingspecies, and so they accuse
everybody involved with it withplaying God.
I'm not a particular religiousguy, but my belief is that we
are.
What we're doing is using agift.
The guy upstairs gave us thispiece of hamburger between our
(28:57):
ears that allows us to think andstudy science and technology,
and it's much more acceptable ifit's used to produce COVID
vaccines or something like that.
If it goes to treat humanity,it's much more acceptable, but
(29:19):
if we use it on an ecosystem,there are a lot of people who
said nature is all-powerful,just leave it alone and it'll
take care of itself.
Well, we learned when Columbuscame over that's not quite so.
Humans were part of theecosystem and they had zero
(29:39):
resistance to all this stuff,and we killed 95% of them and
then we took their land.
So the point I was going tomake a while ago there is no
other group of folks that havebeen more mistreated by the rest
of us than our native people,by the rest of us than our
(30:02):
native people.
So part of my scheme was thatall these people are really
interested in restoringparticularly the chestnut tree,
but also any other trees thatwere part of their culture.
For the Ojibwe, it's birch thatthey make canoes out of and
baskets and they want to focuson that if they can.
(30:26):
Well, my scheme is to use theUS Forest Service that own
millions of acres of land use,the American Chestnut Foundation
that's working to restorechestnut and the biggest
contribution that's working torestore chestnut and biggest
contribution that's going tomake is that we're laying a
pathway of science andtechnology that can be used to
(30:53):
restore all the other stuff thatwe're in danger of losing or
having go extinct.
So, but part of my grand schemeis involve all the tribes.
You know, maybe it's guilt,caucasian guilt here.
You know that we try to, butit's their interest in it that
(31:17):
fascinates me and every one ofthem wants to play a part of it.
So I developed this scheme.
I worked 42 years with theForest Service and I've got a
lot of contacts within the feds,the government, and what
(31:39):
brought these things to a headwas Hurricane Helene that almost
wiped out Florida and it wipedout 190,000 acres of eastern
Cherokee homeland and trees aredown.
(32:00):
It looks like 190,000 acres ofstrip mine If you drive through
the woods and look at.
Well, that's a huge part of theCherokee culture.
You know, we've established apartnership with them.
We've trained them in how we dothis chestnut stuff and they're
(32:20):
willing partners, they want tobe a part of this and it's also
an opportunity for us to use togive them some good training in
the woods as they're working onthis stuff.
My plan is to convince theForest Service to approach every
(32:41):
indigenous tribe whose homelandis now part of this national
forest system and there'smillions of acres of it, even in
the east and allow that tribeto utilize a chunk maybe 100
acres, it might be 5,000 acresand on that tract of land they
(33:07):
could work to help us, help theForest Service and other people,
restore those trees and maybeanimals that were in danger of
losing, and using science andtechnology.
But the other thing they coulddo because any tribal people you
(33:28):
talk to there's two thingsthey're concerned about Number
one, losing their language, ifthey still have their language,
and number two, losing theirculture.
And number two, losing theirculture.
Well, what I'm proposing isthat that piece of land that we
(33:52):
permit the tribes to utilizethey'll work on restoring,
helping Forest Service restoreand correct the mess we've made
of the land for several hundredyears, but also give them an
opportunity to replicate thiswould be an educational project
(34:12):
their culture, how theirancestors lived, what did their
houses look like?
How did they garden?
What did they grow in theirgardens?
What did they kill out of theforest to survive the winter?
But capture as much of theculture as we could, and this
will be purely an educationalprogram.
We plan to secure funds tovideo this, to film it, because
(34:38):
the best way for the tribes tohang on to their culture is to
have it captured on film.
Then you have a film there or avideo that could be used by any
government agency, any school,anybody that wants to put on
some training about how thenative people live.
So, and the Forest Service isbuying into this you know
(35:00):
they're very eager, this wholething.
I'm just really surprised andshocked that there is so much
support developing for it.
So I'm moving ahead with thisthing full speed.
Son Scott is helping me everystep of the way and I think
(35:24):
we're going to be able to pullit off.
But it's just amazing to me andpotentially this could be a
very big deal, particularly withthe government agencies like
Forest Service.
They're required by law.
We still treat the tribes assovereign nations because it was
(35:47):
their land that when we firstcame over here.
But we took their land and gavethem Oklahoma parts of it.
You know where it's difficultto grow the crops that they live
with.
Anyhow, that's my plan andright now there appears to be a
good deal of buy-in for it.
(36:10):
We had a big meeting inAsheville this past week and man
, the powers that be in theForest Service are telling me to
move ahead with it.
You know, just keep theminformed, plugged into it.
Plus, when the hurricane,hurricane Helene hit western
(36:32):
North Carolina, it destroyed190,000 acres of prime mountain
land in there.
The excellent chestnut land isan area most of the reservation
surrounds the Great SmokyMountain National Park and the
Cherokee are really interestedin fixing the damage and the
(36:58):
Forest Service is also veryinterested in getting every
chestnut seedling that we canfind.
And as we work to restore orcorrect the damage that we did
to that 190,000 acres, we'regoing to do it with chestnut, a
tree that we wiped out, you know, a hundred and some years ago.
(37:25):
And the big thing about it whenyou look at all these people who
do this stuff, including thechestnut group, most of them are
struggling financially.
They need support.
They need financial support.
They're talking about millionsof dollars.
Maybe that would come here tohelp restore this 190,000 acres
(37:50):
of mountain land Cherokeehomeland, but they like the idea
of involving the tribes.
It's such a big area that itwould be a huge opportunity for
(38:11):
good publicity to attract.
A lot of people would be drawnto that, you know.
But anyhow, pushing ahead withit.
So that's my retirement jobright there, if I can hang
around my old oncology colleges.
(38:39):
After my return of lymphoma hesaid you really need to start
collecting something likebaseball cards instead of
cancers.
If you can't, so if you'regoing to do this kind of work,
so if I can get reasonablyhealthy again, that's what I'm
going to do the rest of my life.
(39:00):
But I've got a lot of a lot ofpeople who are very interested
in this.
This is one reason I reallywanted to meet you, because I
know what you, you, you all Igot to do is look behind your
head and see what's on yourthese boards and listen to my
son, scott, and I'm honored tobe here today just to be a part
(39:23):
of this.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
So I need to shut up and let you talk no, I, I, I am
glad you you've shared all thatyou've shared.
It's uh, it's a very importantproject and I think it brings a
lot of things full circle.
You know, I, I used to travelaround with a guy named harvey
arden who was a nationalgeographic staff writer for 23
years, wrote a bunch ofbest-selling books, but he, his
(39:45):
whole goal was, uh, he started acompany where he was bringing
the, the indigenous elders tothe world and the world to the
indigenous elders, and our goalwas to try to capture everything
we could from their personalstories history messages to
mention this on your, your webpage.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
I've seen I've got a fact you sent me a book or two
or some, describing that you'vealready done.
Yes, sir, yeah, I can buy justa little breathing time.
I'm gonna.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I'm gonna read that because it's fascinating, oh it
goes along with what you'retalking about the idea of trying
to preserve a culture and amessage and a history and
especially in that digital form,trying to keep that.
You know.
The goal is to have somethingfor the future seventh
generation.
Right, and what do they say?
Like the uh, you know, besttime to plant a tree was years
(40:37):
ago.
The second best time is todayright like that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
But but the other thing, that that it covers this
whole thing one of the one ofthe things that humans have at
least paid some attention tosince we began farming thousands
of years ago is being halfwaygood stewards of the land, so
(41:03):
that our grandkids and I thinkwe have an obligation for our
grandkids and those that comeafter them to let them inherit
at least as productive anddiverse chunk of land as we
inherit.
You know, I think we're obligedto do that, using whatever
(41:25):
science is out there.
We test the science.
If it shows chances of working,let's try, you know, and give
it the scientific test.
So I believe it can be done.
But anyhow, that's an old man'sdream right there.
So I'm trying to think ifthere's anything I left out.
(41:48):
But I'm really excited that theForest Service and other groups
are really anxious to play apart in this.
And the tribes it's reallysurprising to me because I've
been doing a lot of thinkingabout what part in this and the
tribes are truly surprising tome, because I've been doing a
lot of thinking about what's inthis for the tribes and the
thing that the biggest thingthat I can come up with is this
(42:11):
thing of recognizing thecontributions they have made to
us as a nation and understandthat we're all one people.
And if they lose their languageor their culture, we lose part
(42:33):
of ours and by filming theircapture as much of their culture
and by filming they'recapturing as much of their
culture.
I think it's a huge, giant stepfor expanded knowledge.
From an educational standpoint,we've got chestnut people that
(43:02):
we did a documentary a couple ofyears ago on american chestnut
that actually was prettyprofessionally done and uh, and
the people in that group want todo shorter versions, but but do
it on things like uh, nativeamerican uh culture, you know
and education, you know, andeducation, you know, shorter
films, but they're going to tryto use this project I'm working
(43:26):
on if we can record video theculture that they demonstrate on
these chunks of land we'regoing to give permission to work
on.
That could be a very, veryvaluable educational thing that
will be around forever.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Sure, well, it reminds me too, like when you're
talking, even in your Ted talkand some of our discussions
we've had before.
You know the indigenous peoplewherever it is, worldwide, right
wherever they are most of thetimes.
Those folks have lived for youknow millennia in that area and
know those plants.
(44:06):
They know those as themedicines, as healing agents, as
food, as nutrition and all thedifferent ways that we're
connected comes in and tries totake some plant and then say
okay, we own this now, andthey'll you know they try to
monopolize that where thesepeople know what is going to be
best around them for those typesof medicinal health because
(44:29):
they, they, they're veryobservant.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
I've never met a tribal person that was not
observant.
And they, they know, they werevery much aware a long time
before we were of what kept thatecosystem going out there that
they depended on.
Sure, and another short storythat one of my hobbies is
(44:54):
raising purple martins.
I don't know if you've everheard of those things, but
they're a bird that only catchesflying insects.
They once made their nests hereall over the country.
Well, there were some thatlived in saguaro cactuses out in
the southwest, but they oncelived mostly in woodpecker holes
(45:19):
and oak trees.
That's the only species thatwas domesticated by native
people.
And what they did?
They kept noticing this strangepurple bird.
What the bird does?
It catches flying insects.
I've got a couple of hundred ofthem up here in my place in
(45:43):
Kentucky.
But the insects they caughtwere tiny flying insects, the
same kind that ate the maize andthe beans and the pumpkins and
the squash that the tribes grew.
So they came up with the idea.
They also grew gourds.
So they came up with the ideaof planting a few gourds, just
(46:08):
old dipper gourds, cut anopening in it and lo and behold
these birds, which always comeback to where they raise their
young and they winter in Brazil.
They fly all the way to Brazil,all of the parents and the
young of the year, thousands ofmiles.
It's seven man.
(46:31):
It's several days flying overthe Gulf of Mexico and then they
go all the way to Brazil andlive in the jungles down there
until spring comes to NorthAmerica and then they come back
to where they raised their youngthe year before.
But when you talk aboutcontributions that Native
(46:53):
Americans have made, as I getinto this business of getting
them involved, I want to try touh, install a purple martin
colony at every tribal or everyplace they put this stuff.
Put, put a few gourds up thereand get some martins to come in
there, just to tell that story.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, no, it's.
It reminds me of like, the, thebats, like, and we have a lot
of bat colonies here in Texasand they actually have, you know
, I'm not sure exactly.
I think it was some type ofradar system where they're able
to see where they fly out eachnight and they go over all these
.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
They're able to bounce off and they know what's
out there.
They can identify a flyinginsect.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
And they go and they get these insects that are over
these agricultural fields and Ithink people don't understand
how birds and bats and how manydifferent things are
contributing to our way of lifeon a day-to-day basis and
keeping our food system safe,and these are things that have
been in play for millennia.
And if we start to mess withthose things, it's going to be
(48:00):
detrimental to our future andour children's and
grandchildren's future.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's exactly right and that's part of the
educational process that couldbe explained If we were able to
do some of this filming.
That would include thecontributions.
My own personal contribution ofbelief is that our early
Caucasian ancestors whosuccessfully fought the British
(48:30):
during the Revolutionary War, welearned to fight that way from
the Indians and had we not donethat, we'd all have a heavy
British accent today, I think,if we had not done that.
But there's a bunch of stufflike that that could be
(48:50):
recognized and could beidentified as part of the
culture.
You know these people, theircontribution to how we live
today.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Sure, it's a shoulders of giants thing, man.
The people who moved into anarea had no idea about the
horticulture and being able togrow.
They looked to the people whodid it successfully for
millennia and thatorticultureand being able to grow you.
They looked to the people whowere did it successfully for
millennia and that's how theywere able to adapt.
And then it's a.
There's a the lakota saying,which is we are all related, we
(49:24):
are all one, we all.
There's nothing that separatesus.
We all in this way, all all theorganisms, every single animal,
every plant, flora, fauna.
And I think the sooner werecognize that and we learn to
find our strengths within thesedifferent communities in order
to be able to preserve theseways of life that we love so
dear, that's exactly right.
(49:44):
It's what we have to do.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
And I see that as being a major goal.
I see that as being a majorgoal.
The other thing that strikes me, George, is tribal people have
a better land ethic, if you will, than most of us do.
They have more respect for theland out there, and I know
(50:08):
Cherokee, my old buddy, theCherokee elder, explained it
this way to me.
He said most of us spend ourlives taken from the land and
what we have to understand isthere comes a time when we have
to give back to the land, andthe way I think we give back is
(50:29):
to use this piece of hamburgerhere between our ears and try to
correct the damage that we'vealready done, you know, to the
land and recognize thecontributions that these other
Americans, the tribal people,have made to this whole effort.
And I think there's some realpotential there to bring that
(50:51):
story out.
You know and I'm babbling again, so forgive me- no, no
forgiveness needed.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
I think all these things are important.
When you were talking about theidea of working with the
Forestry Service and with thetribes, it also reminded me too
and I've done it on my ownfamily land here in Texas is
working with your local USDAagent, your NRCS.
There's different programs thatare out there.
We've taken out these invasivespecies well, animal too with
(51:23):
hogs and stuff.
We've done it with trees andshrubs and we've replanted
native grasses and there's fundsthere for that.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yes, and travel people could easily be a part of
that absolutely really could itis it's important.
Yes, it is, and uh, I don'tknow, I I feel very hopeful, uh,
uh, about continuing with this,but I would really treasure any
inputs or advice you've got, asas we move on with it.
(51:54):
Scott is really into it, he'sreally helping me with this and
uh, so uh, but if you've got anythoughts on it, uh, I would
love to hear any advice for itall.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
I definitely my, my wheels are spinning every time
I'm thinking about it.
So there's, uh, there's a lotof tribes that I've worked with
and traveled with and haverelationships with that I'd love
to chat and introduce you with.
So we'll, you know, we'lldefinitely, you know, continue
to keep that.
Uh, you know those seeds ofplanning and uh, um, you know,
before we kind of separate fortoday, I wanted to ask you, with
(52:32):
all the things that you'redoing, and you know, I know, at
the end of your Ted talk youkind of mentioned too that you
know, you know your dad would beproud of the fact that you have
gotten involved and are workingon something that is so near
and dear to his heart and theancestors and all those people
for hundreds of years, and I was.
It kind of got me thinking about.
(52:53):
You know, a question I ask alot of my guests is is one about
legacy and how you view yourlegacy or how you want it to be.
You know something like what isit that you hope that you're
leaving behind and that you'reremembered by, and the?
You know whether it's amovement, a personal,
professional thing, and you know, just, is that something that
you know at this stage of yourlife you kind of think about,
(53:14):
and is it something that youshare, a belief that you'd like
to you know expand upon a littlebit with us today.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
Well, I do a lot of thinking about that.
One of the things that turns meoff is running into people that
appear to worship themselves.
You know, they think that I'mthe only one that's important,
(53:41):
and because when you, if you getto that point where all that's
important is that, dude, you'relooking at the mirror, at,
there's no room left forkindness to anybody else.
And I think there is much to bedone in this arena.
I call it leaving tracks.
(54:04):
You know, to leave some tracksand we left tracks back in the
old days and the native peoplealso.
Learning to read tracks was anart form, you know.
Their lives depended on it, andsometimes it was to bountiful
(54:34):
chunk of land that was usefulfor the tribe or something that
was good for the tribe.
And leaving tracks sometimesinvolved maybe drawing a little
arrow on the ground or breakinga branch so that those tracks
could be followed, you know, orbreaking a branch so that those
(54:54):
tracks could be followed, youknow, and if I weren't 80 years
old, I'd give some thoughts totrying to put this in a book
form or some way to, because Ithink as a species, as a country
, I think as a species, as acountry, the land ethic thing is
(55:25):
one that I think if we reallyfocused on that and have some
talented Native Americans and Ithink that with just a little
bit of work with some of thetribal people, we would probably
discover that their land ethic,how they viewed the land, their
respect for it, it's verysimilar, you know, because just
their history, I mean they,there are eons that they spent
depending on these ecosystems.
(55:50):
And I think about how ourcitizenry today could benefit
from having a land, that levelof respect for the woods, the
ecosystems, the streams, becausewhen you look at this thing
that bothers me of bringing inevery strange insect.
(56:11):
They come in through worldtrade or international travel.
We're not going to stop tradingor traveling internationally,
but we need to do somethingbecause there's no indication
that this is going to slow downand the damage will continue.
The only way to fix that, Ithink, is to try to instill,
(56:37):
particularly in our young people, a different way of looking at
the land, that it's not justsomething to look at but it's
our lives right there.
We kind of owe that to ourpeople.
(56:57):
I think If we could start toupgrade that land ethic and I
don't know whose role that is alot of agencies and a lot of
people would play a role in that, for example a forest service.
If we're in the business oftrying to restore some of the
damage that's been done whenignorance prevailed, you know,
(57:22):
think about the improvements toour quality of life if we could
just stop this damage.
It's almost epidemic now andwith good science and good
technology I'd like to see thateffort continue.
But I think that this tribalthing, I consider those folks
(57:57):
the indigenous people and Ithink back when in my youth, and
you may remember this, therewas an advertisement.
I think they called it thecrying Indian the guy that's
actually shedding some tearswhen he saw people throwing
garbage out the car window.
But I think there'sopportunities to really make
(58:19):
some headway for all our peopleon a better land ethic, an ethic
that suits better our needs andthose of our grandkids, and I
think we owe it to them, youknow, to try to do that.
I hope some way we can get that, and I think I'd love to see
(58:42):
the Native people play a role intrying to get this word out.
Uh, get this word out, you know, maybe in the video, when we
video some of their culture, getsome of their best speakers and
let them, let them address thisand and get it down on film
(59:02):
babbling, yeah, no these are.
Speaker 1 (59:05):
These are great things, man.
I'm so glad you shared it andthat you know you're continuing
to kind of build your vision andshare it and, like you, shared
it too with me and all thelisteners here today, and I know
that I'll be putting down allthe notes to some of the
organizations we spoke about toyour TED Talk link.
(59:25):
I think everyone needs to gosee that.
It's about 10 minutes give ortake and it's wonderful.
It kind of gives a goodsynopsis of what you know you're
working towards and, uh, youknow you and I will just kind of
keep in touch and see how wecan kind of help each other
along with this, and I'm onceagain, man I'm so honored that
you came and joined me today,and I and uh, uh, the same here,
(59:46):
the same here.
Speaker 2 (59:47):
you, uh, you've made my day, so I just uh, I want to
stay in touch at yourconvenience, but uh, uh, I think
, I think this thing has a lotof potential and you can uh, you
can give us some tremendoushelp with it as you ponder on it
.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah Well, I look forward to be a part of every
step that you, everything you'redoing, so rex, thank you again
for joining me and uh, yeah,we'll uh maybe have to meet up
and have you on again soon,sometime we'll do that, buddy.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
All right, you have a great day and I want to read
more about your deer down therealso working on another article.
Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
I'll send it your way .
All right, that'll be great youtake care.
Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
good day, thanks for what you do, thank you.
Hey Rex.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah, I'm well, sir and George, it's a pleasure to
be here, pleasure to see you andmeet you.
And George, it's a pleasure tobe here, pleasure to stay here
and meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yes, absolutely, it's an honor for me, man, we've
been connected through your son,scott, who I had on the podcast
, and he's like I think you'regoing to need to chat with my
dad and so you know we've hadsome phone calls and bringing us
here and we've got some greatthings.
We're going to talk about theyou know restoration of the
(00:50):
chestnuts.
We're going to be talking aboutworking with native tribes and
the things that we can docollectively together to make
sure that we are saving ourforests for future generations.
And so I think at the beginning, like, uh, if you can tell me a
little bit about how you, youknow where you grew up and you
know, maybe talk about that dayaround that campfire that you
kind of saw something with yourdad that kind of changed your uh
trajectory and what you wantedto go in and work with the
forestry service, if youwouldn't mind.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Sure, I'll do that.
I uh, I grew, I'm a product ofAppalachian and uh and uh, we'll
talk about the Appalachian uh,uh residents and the little uh,
the society they built there inthe Appalachians.
And but I am product of thatand uh, I grew up, uh, seeing
(01:33):
chestnut in the woods.
My dad, uh, who was educated inthe first forestry school but
he had a sixth grade educationthe old Baptist preacher,
preacher, he, uh, he, uh, hetold chestnut stories all the
time because chestnut americanchestnut composed about the one
(01:58):
out of every five trees thatgrew in the Appalachian
Mountains all the way toPennsylvania and New York.
It was then.
And my dad saw that forest ofhuge chestnut trees when he was
a kid.
He hunted in them and he knewthe tree.
(02:22):
Later in life he was a loggerand he really got to see how the
chestnut dominated the forestand its value to, beginning with
the indigenous people, thenative people, but also the
settlers.
The trees would easily grow 100foot tall.
(02:47):
It was often called the redwood of the east because the
wood was so rock resistant.
They used it for everythingfrom cradles to coffins.
But every year the mostimportant thing was it produced
a huge crop of very nutritiousAmerican chestnuts that fed
(03:14):
everything in the woods,including deer bear, a few bison
that were running through themountains up there, and the
people, both the early Caucasiansettlers and the tribal people,
and they depended on it.
They realized the value of thetree and so I grew up hearing
(03:38):
chestnut stories.
My dad witnessed the black.
The American chestnut's beenaround for 50 million years.
It originated in Asia and in1904, back up a step, the
landowners and the farmers andthe poor mountain people and the
(04:00):
farmers and the poor mountainpeople, every fall they would go
into the woods, the wholefamily with tow sacks and they
would gather chestnuts by thebushel, take them to the country
store and swap up for thingsthat they had no money to buy.
(04:21):
These were poor people, but apair of shoes for the kids or
coffees, things that theycouldn't produce.
And so my dad saw that come inand the chestnut was brought in
on.
The chestnut blight, which is afungus, was brought in on some
(04:45):
Japanese chestnuts and theJapanese chestnuts had the block
and they were brought into NewYork City near Brooklyn and
immediately the large chestnuttrees began to die.
This fungus was on the trees.
(05:06):
It quickly attacked thechestnuts.
That was in 1904.
Between 1904 and the end of theSecond World War, 1945, between
four and five billion Americanchestnut trees died.
(05:29):
And if you I figured it up onetime if you could lay these dead
chestnuts end to end, it wouldcircle the globe one and a half
times.
So it was a huge.
It's been referred to as thegreatest environmental disaster
ever to strike North America,because the forest changed
(05:53):
completely when I went to workwith the Forest Service.
Let me back up a step.
You asked that question when Iwas growing up and, by the way,
if you want to do, I did a TEDtalk about I don't know, early
70s.
That kind of told about myyouth growing up with my dad and
(06:19):
how I got into the chestnutthing.
But my dad, he was just anold-timer.
We had no television when I wasgrowing up, we just poured us
church mice and so our pastimein the wintertime was to gather
around the old wood stove thatheated the house and my dad and
(06:42):
other old folks who probablycome visiting would tell stories
.
And just from the very beginningI noticed that all these
stories somewhere or the otherended up mentioning Chestnut,
american Chestnut, and thesimple reason was it was such a
(07:03):
huge part of the life of themountain people of Appalachia,
it defined their quality of life.
They were subsistence farmersbut and they my dad tells a
story of when he was a young manhe and a cousin who had an old
(07:27):
T-model Ford would load that oldFord down with sacks of
American chestnuts and severaljugs of genuine moonshine
whiskey and they would drive toWashington DC.
And this was common practice atthat time.
Country people would bringchestnuts into the big cities,
(07:51):
have a way to roast the thingsand then sell them on the street
.
But where my dad really madehis money was selling a little
jug of moonshine whiskey to washit down.
Got to have something to washit down.
Sure, yes, exactly right.
But they did that for years andhe would tell that story.
And just just the stories hetold, uh led me to become a
(08:16):
forester and uh, uh.
And when I started work and Iworked 42 years with the US
Forest Service and almost all ofthat I did firefighting man I
did a huge amount of forestfirefighting for about 30 years,
(08:37):
mostly in the West, but in therest of the year I was just a
forester and I managed wildlifeand timber and everything else,
but the woods at that time werefull of standing dead chestnuts
(08:59):
and we called them gray ghostsbecause the wood decayed you
like to never decayed, you knowand it would stand for decades
and we call those old deadchestnuts gray ghosts and, uh,
you still see a few of them outthere.
But uh, I had an opportunityearly in my career to watch the
(09:22):
forest change and it changedfrom one that was dominated with
this huge tree, americanchestnut, and when they all died
out it was red maples or shrubtrees that took over and the
change was dramatic and theAppalachian people saw all that
(09:46):
happening.
My dad witnessed the changes init and he'd talk about when
that blight hits that the localpeople would say surely it would
kill all of them, you know, butin fact it did.
All of them, you know, but infact it did.
(10:08):
There are very few survivinglarge trees anywhere in North
America.
Now that escaped the blind.
The largest chestnut trees inNorth America are on the west
coast Washington, oregon,northern California, idaho and
this is because the earlysettlers, when they migrated to
the west to find land, theycarried chestnuts with them
(10:33):
because they thought so much ofthat tree.
They were mostly mountainpeople from Appalachia and they
carried these chestnuts, plantedthem all over oregon,
washington, idaho, and thethings prospered because the
blight had had come in throughthe new york harbor and it never
(10:53):
reached that part of northamerica.
So these trees were huge outthere and they're the largest
chestnuts in amer and in theworld today.
But I grew up hearing thosestories and after about 20 years
I heard about this organizationthat was doing research to
(11:18):
restore the chestnut and thiswas 20-some years ago.
As it ended up, I started achapter of the Chestnut
Foundation in Kentucky where Iwas working as a forester at the
time.
I have been in that, devotedall of my retired years working
(11:43):
to restore that tree and, crazything I did a TED Talk.
I was able to get the agreementstarted with the Eastern
Barrens, the Cherokee Indians,and then when I got into that, I
really was carried away withthe thought of involving the
(12:07):
tribal people in the restorationof the chestnut.
What did in all these trees andthe same thing in Texas is we,
the citizens of this wonderfulcountry?
We ignorance prevailed when itcame to what happens when you
(12:32):
bring a strange disease or astrange insect or a strange
plant and drop it in our woodsor get it started, and the
native growth has never met thatthing.
They've never been around itand they died like flies man and
within just a period of about30 or 40 years we wiped them out
(12:59):
and they still sprout.
They're a prolific sprouter andthey still sprout.
They're a prolific sprouter andthe fungus, for whatever reason
, is unable to kill the roots ofthe tree.
There are other fungi in theground that attack that thing
(13:20):
when it gets in the ground, butthey've never been able to come
up.
Use this as a treatment.
But the trees are prolificsprouters and you can still find
dozens of hundreds of thesesmall chestnut sprouts in the
forest.
We use them in our breedingprogram because we've got a very
(13:41):
active breeding program.
It's showing a lot of promiseand we cross pure American trees
that we find like these littlesmall chestnut sprouts, and we
cross them with the Asian treeswho, over the eons, develop a
resistance to the blight, as wecall it.
(14:03):
But in order to restore a treewhen we bring in, we now know
ignorance prevailed forcenturies and we immediately
started to kill off not onlytrees and shrubs.
Today we're losing all of ourash trees, about 8 billion of
(14:26):
them all over the United Statesfrom an insect we brought in.
We've lost numerous other trees.
Butternut or white walnutdisappeared a long time ago.
We're losing hemlock trees thatare necessary if you want to
have trout fishing because theyfurnish a deep shade, and the
(14:51):
trout we have, if that water'snot certain cold temperature
they won't reproduce.
But the hemlock is dying.
Oh man, we're losing Americanelm.
We've've already lost that,that's exactly right.
But today we know the impact ofthis stuff.
(15:16):
But the other thing we did withour early settlers we brought
all of our domesticated animalsinto the country and the North
America and turned them loose inthe woods.
And all the farmers just lookedon the forest as open range and
they would take their cattleand their pigs and notch the
(15:38):
ears so they could identify them, turn them loose during the
growing season and through thefall into the forest and they
would fatten up and get readyfor the winter by eating
chestnuts.
Then in the fall they would goround up these pigs and drive
them back to their farm and killthem, you know, for their
winter food.
But when we brought thoseanimals in and turned them loose
(16:07):
, beginning in 1492, whenColumbus made his first trip, we
finally developed wooden shipsacross the Atlantic Ocean and he
went to the Caribbean and hehad his on his three ships.
(16:28):
He had them loaded down withpigs to feed his sailors.
Well, the pigs all had swine fluand every every disease that is
fatal to humans, includingCOVID.
They first find a host that's awild animal birds or some kind
(16:57):
and in the case of pigs, swineflu was found on wild pigs.
And then over time, because thesettlers lived so close to
their livestock that thosediseases were able to jump from
(17:20):
wild animals to domesticatedanimals.
So when Columbus came to theCaribbean, we turned loose not
only swine flu but smallpox,chickenpox, mumps, measles,
things that none of the tribesand at that time they estimate
(17:44):
there were at least 50 to 55million Native people in North
America, south America and inthe Caribbean.
Within 200 years, 90 to 95% ofthose folks were dead because
they had no resistance to thediseases and they died like
(18:06):
flies.
So today, even with our work,we've learned that if you don't
restore a tree, the first thingwe have to do is to develop a
native tree that's similar tothat thing, that can withstand
the diseases that are alreadyhere, because once those things
(18:29):
come in.
They don't leave, they're hereto stay.
And it's like the chestnutblight was able to jump to oak
trees and it will not kill theoak trees but it allows the
fungus to reproduce and throwout spores.
(18:49):
And, as luck would have it, onthe west coast in northern
california and southern oregon,there is a disease that was
brought into that part of thecountry called sudden oak death.
And this stuff, I don't knowwhere it came from Asia, I'm
pretty sure but it has killedliterally millions of oak trees
(19:14):
in that part of the world, inCalifornia, not if that thing
makes it to the east or the restof the United States, but when
it has the potential, the restof the United States.
But when it has the potentialand it's been, they've tested
this in labs it has thepotential to kill all the oak
trees remaining in North America.
(19:35):
And what we lost with thechestnut tree would pale in
comparison to what that stuffwill do once it's turned loose.
So the bit we're where wefinally are reaching a point
where we've had some scientificsuccess.
The only answer to bringingthis stuff back is through
(19:59):
science and technology.
You know and this is especiallyimportant to me because in the
past 10 years I've had threeepisodes of cancer, starting
with prostate cancer, startingwith lymphoma 17, 18 years ago,
(20:25):
and it was type 4 lymphoma.
It was in my bone marrow butthe oncologist was able to drive
it into remission with somereally harsh chemo so I went on
with my career.
But about two years ago I had areturn visit of that lymphoma
(20:52):
and it usually hits you whenyou're young and the experts
believe that most people catchit from using Roundup you know
the stuff we spray the weedswith.
Oh yeah, and that's likelywhere I got mine.
But they drove it intoremission.
But when it came back it was avery active cancer that attacked
(21:18):
the stomach and the intestinalarea and I was feeling really
bad.
But I had a PET scan that wentto an emergency room and my
stomach was just full of tumors,one of them the size of a
(21:38):
softball.
And so my son, who's retiredfrom the military, helps me in
all this restoration stuff thatI do, lives in Florida and he
has a buddy he served inAfghanistan with who was kind of
chief of staff of this MoffittCancer Center, so he got me in
(22:03):
there and they have some reallycutting-edge technology.
They call it CAR-T and what itis when that cancer, that
lymphoma comes back, itimmediately spreads all over
your body.
But they've worked out aprocess down there where they
(22:27):
this not a very pleasant subject.
They put a little uh tube in myjugger vein, removed almost all
the blood in my body into thislittle machine that I sat on the
floor beside and that thing hada device in there that made the
(22:47):
whole machine spin and theywere able to separate out all
the white cells in my body,thousands and thousands of them.
And as near as I can tell.
The only purpose and one ofthose white blood cells is
called a T-cell, and the T-cellsonly purpose for being in our
(23:09):
bodies is to attack and killcells that should not be in
there.
So what they did?
They collected all the T-cellsin my body, sent them off to a
lab this is controversialgenetic modification in
Baltimore, maryland.
And they changed that thing.
(23:31):
They genetically modified it byadding genes from some sort of
chemo so that the only cellsthat T-cell would attack were
the lymphoma cells that I had inmy body.
And the way they modified it.
(23:52):
It has the ability to seek outthese cancer cells, attach to
the top of them and then killthat cancer cell, goes through
it and kills the cell.
Kill that cancer cell, it growsthrough it and kills the cell.
And they also had these thingsmultiply greatly.
They're able to do that withtoday's technology.
(24:12):
So instead of thousands thatthey took out of my body, they
put in millions of them and theyput those things back in my
body.
And I still have to have a PETscan every 30 days and they give
you this radioactive stuff thatmakes all the cancer cells
(24:34):
light up.
You know, whenever they gothrough a PET scan and they
could see immediately that thesethings started seeking out,
hunting for the cancer cells andimmediately killing them, one
at a time.
And the last PET scan I had Iwas cancer-free and this thing
(24:57):
has become a cure for thisreturn visit of lymphoma, which
normally hits people who havehad it before, but when they're
old and I just got turned 80years old about a year ago but
it has developed into a cure.
But it has developed into acure whatever the thing is that
(25:49):
kills them.
And in American chestnut we hada couple of scientists up at
Syracuse that discovered thatthere's a number of plants, one
of them being a wheat plant, acommon wheat plant that we make
bread from, and this wheat plantis attacked.
When the chestnut blightattacks a chestnut tree, the
(26:15):
blight puts out oxalic acid, avery powerful acid to kill the
trunk of the tree, and then thefungus eats it.
You know fungi eat dead wood,so death is very quick whenever
these things get established.
But they were able.
(26:36):
They discovered that this wheatplant was attacked by the same
type of disease, produced oxalicacid, but that particular plant
had developed an element in thegene that neutralized oxalic
acid.
So it was like vaccinating achestnut tree a chestnut tree,
(26:57):
because with today's technologythey can take that gene from a
wheat plant and insert it in thegenome of a chestnut tree.
And so we developed thesethings and the federal
government's got to approve them, just as they have to approve
this stuff that cured mylymphoma, but it's very
(27:20):
controversial but it also isvery effective.
You know it's it's uh, there'sa lot of resistance that that
that comes into that chestnuttree and it looks very, very
promising.
We could bring back the treewith this use of science.
So we're still working veryhard at that.
(27:45):
We're doing just traditionalplant breeding, just like we
also do with corn and beans andany other vegetable, and we're
having some good luck because wetry to capture as many of the
Asian tree genes and resistanceto the disease and we're having
(28:08):
a lot of luck.
But some of it is verycontroversial.
The genetic modification intoday's world is very
controversial.
The genetic modification intoday's world is very
controversial and they accuse usof playing God.
You know, they accuse thescientists of playing God
because you take a gene from oneliving species and insert that
(28:33):
in a completely different livingspecies, and so they accuse
everybody involved with it withplaying God.
I'm not a particular religiousguy, but my belief is that we
are.
What we're doing is using agift.
The guy upstairs gave us thispiece of hamburger between our
(28:57):
ears that allows us to think andstudy science and technology,
and it's much more acceptable ifit's used to produce COVID
vaccines or something like that.
If it goes to treat humanity,it's much more acceptable, but
(29:19):
if we use it on an ecosystem,there are a lot of people who
said nature is all-powerful,just leave it alone and it'll
take care of itself.
Well, we learned when Columbuscame over that's not quite so.
Humans were part of theecosystem and they had zero
(29:39):
resistance to all this stuff,and we killed 95% of them and
then we took their land.
So the point I was going tomake a while ago there is no
other group of folks that havebeen more mistreated by the rest
of us than our native people,by the rest of us than our
(30:02):
native people.
So part of my scheme was thatall these people are really
interested in restoringparticularly the chestnut tree,
but also any other trees thatwere part of their culture.
For the Ojibwe, it's birch thatthey make canoes out of and
baskets and they want to focuson that if they can.
(30:26):
Well, my scheme is to use theUS Forest Service that own
millions of acres of land use,the American Chestnut Foundation
that's working to restorechestnut and the biggest
contribution that's working torestore chestnut and biggest
contribution that's going tomake is that we're laying a
pathway of science andtechnology that can be used to
(30:53):
restore all the other stuff thatwe're in danger of losing or
having go extinct.
So, but part of my grand schemeis involve all the tribes.
You know, maybe it's guilt,caucasian guilt here.
You know that we try to, butit's their interest in it that
(31:17):
fascinates me and every one ofthem wants to play a part of it.
So I developed this scheme.
I worked 42 years with theForest Service and I've got a
lot of contacts within the feds,the government, and what
(31:39):
brought these things to a headwas Hurricane Helene that almost
wiped out Florida and it wipedout 190,000 acres of eastern
Cherokee homeland and trees aredown.
(32:00):
It looks like 190,000 acres ofstrip mine If you drive through
the woods and look at.
Well, that's a huge part of theCherokee culture.
You know, we've established apartnership with them.
We've trained them in how we dothis chestnut stuff and they're
(32:20):
willing partners, they want tobe a part of this and it's also
an opportunity for us to use togive them some good training in
the woods as they're working onthis stuff.
My plan is to convince theForest Service to approach every
(32:41):
indigenous tribe whose homelandis now part of this national
forest system and there'smillions of acres of it, even in
the east and allow that tribeto utilize a chunk maybe 100
acres, it might be 5,000 acresand on that tract of land they
(33:07):
could work to help us, help theForest Service and other people,
restore those trees and maybeanimals that were in danger of
losing, and using science andtechnology.
But the other thing they coulddo because any tribal people you
(33:28):
talk to there's two thingsthey're concerned about Number
one, losing their language, ifthey still have their language,
and number two, losing theirculture.
And number two, losing theirculture.
Well, what I'm proposing isthat that piece of land that we
(33:52):
permit the tribes to utilizethey'll work on restoring,
helping Forest Service restoreand correct the mess we've made
of the land for several hundredyears, but also give them an
opportunity to replicate thiswould be an educational project
(34:12):
their culture, how theirancestors lived, what did their
houses look like?
How did they garden?
What did they grow in theirgardens?
What did they kill out of theforest to survive the winter?
But capture as much of theculture as we could, and this
will be purely an educationalprogram.
We plan to secure funds tovideo this, to film it, because
(34:38):
the best way for the tribes tohang on to their culture is to
have it captured on film.
Then you have a film there or avideo that could be used by any
government agency, any school,anybody that wants to put on
some training about how thenative people live.
So, and the Forest Service isbuying into this you know
(35:00):
they're very eager, this wholething.
I'm just really surprised andshocked that there is so much
support developing for it.
So I'm moving ahead with thisthing full speed.
Son Scott is helping me everystep of the way and I think
(35:24):
we're going to be able to pullit off.
But it's just amazing to me andpotentially this could be a
very big deal, particularly withthe government agencies like
Forest Service.
They're required by law.
We still treat the tribes assovereign nations because it was
(35:47):
their land that when we firstcame over here.
But we took their land and gavethem Oklahoma parts of it.
You know where it's difficultto grow the crops that they live
with.
Anyhow, that's my plan andright now there appears to be a
good deal of buy-in for it.
(36:10):
We had a big meeting inAsheville this past week and man
, the powers that be in theForest Service are telling me to
move ahead with it.
You know, just keep theminformed, plugged into it.
Plus, when the hurricane,hurricane Helene hit western
(36:32):
North Carolina, it destroyed190,000 acres of prime mountain
land in there.
The excellent chestnut land isan area most of the reservation
surrounds the Great SmokyMountain National Park and the
Cherokee are really interestedin fixing the damage and the
(36:58):
Forest Service is also veryinterested in getting every
chestnut seedling that we canfind.
And as we work to restore orcorrect the damage that we did
to that 190,000 acres, we'regoing to do it with chestnut, a
tree that we wiped out, you know, a hundred and some years ago.
(37:25):
And the big thing about it whenyou look at all these people who
do this stuff, including thechestnut group, most of them are
struggling financially.
They need support.
They need financial support.
They're talking about millionsof dollars.
Maybe that would come here tohelp restore this 190,000 acres
(37:50):
of mountain land Cherokeehomeland, but they like the idea
of involving the tribes.
It's such a big area that itwould be a huge opportunity for
(38:11):
good publicity to attract.
A lot of people would be drawnto that, you know.
But anyhow, pushing ahead withit.
So that's my retirement jobright there, if I can hang
around my old oncology colleges.
(38:39):
After my return of lymphoma hesaid you really need to start
collecting something likebaseball cards instead of
cancers.
If you can't, so if you'regoing to do this kind of work,
so if I can get reasonablyhealthy again, that's what I'm
going to do the rest of my life.
(39:00):
But I've got a lot of a lot ofpeople who are very interested
in this.
This is one reason I reallywanted to meet you, because I
know what you, you, you all Igot to do is look behind your
head and see what's on yourthese boards and listen to my
son, scott, and I'm honored tobe here today just to be a part
(39:23):
of this.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
So I need to shut up and let you talk no, I, I, I am
glad you you've shared all thatyou've shared.
It's uh, it's a very importantproject and I think it brings a
lot of things full circle.
You know, I, I used to travelaround with a guy named harvey
arden who was a nationalgeographic staff writer for 23
years, wrote a bunch ofbest-selling books, but he, his
(39:45):
whole goal was, uh, he started acompany where he was bringing
the, the indigenous elders tothe world and the world to the
indigenous elders, and our goalwas to try to capture everything
we could from their personalstories history messages to
mention this on your, your webpage.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
I've seen I've got a fact you sent me a book or two
or some, describing that you'vealready done.
Yes, sir, yeah, I can buy justa little breathing time.
I'm gonna.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I'm gonna read that because it's fascinating, oh it
goes along with what you'retalking about the idea of trying
to preserve a culture and amessage and a history and
especially in that digital form,trying to keep that.
You know.
The goal is to have somethingfor the future seventh
generation.
Right, and what do they say?
Like the uh, you know, besttime to plant a tree was years
(40:37):
ago.
The second best time is todayright like that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
But but the other thing, that that it covers this
whole thing one of the one ofthe things that humans have at
least paid some attention tosince we began farming thousands
of years ago is being halfwaygood stewards of the land, so
(41:03):
that our grandkids and I thinkwe have an obligation for our
grandkids and those that comeafter them to let them inherit
at least as productive anddiverse chunk of land as we
inherit.
You know, I think we're obligedto do that, using whatever
(41:25):
science is out there.
We test the science.
If it shows chances of working,let's try, you know, and give
it the scientific test.
So I believe it can be done.
But anyhow, that's an old man'sdream right there.
So I'm trying to think ifthere's anything I left out.
(41:48):
But I'm really excited that theForest Service and other groups
are really anxious to play apart in this.
And the tribes it's reallysurprising to me because I've
been doing a lot of thinkingabout what part in this and the
tribes are truly surprising tome, because I've been doing a
lot of thinking about what's inthis for the tribes and the
thing that the biggest thingthat I can come up with is this
(42:11):
thing of recognizing thecontributions they have made to
us as a nation and understandthat we're all one people.
And if they lose their languageor their culture, we lose part
(42:33):
of ours and by filming theircapture as much of their culture
and by filming they'recapturing as much of their
culture.
I think it's a huge, giant stepfor expanded knowledge.
From an educational standpoint,we've got chestnut people that
(43:02):
we did a documentary a couple ofyears ago on american chestnut
that actually was prettyprofessionally done and uh, and
the people in that group want todo shorter versions, but but do
it on things like uh, nativeamerican uh culture, you know
and education, you know, andeducation, you know, shorter
films, but they're going to tryto use this project I'm working
(43:26):
on if we can record video theculture that they demonstrate on
these chunks of land we'regoing to give permission to work
on.
That could be a very, veryvaluable educational thing that
will be around forever.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Sure, well, it reminds me too, like when you're
talking, even in your Ted talkand some of our discussions
we've had before.
You know the indigenous peoplewherever it is, worldwide, right
wherever they are most of thetimes.
Those folks have lived for youknow millennia in that area and
know those plants.
(44:06):
They know those as themedicines, as healing agents, as
food, as nutrition and all thedifferent ways that we're
connected comes in and tries totake some plant and then say
okay, we own this now, andthey'll you know they try to
monopolize that where thesepeople know what is going to be
best around them for those typesof medicinal health because
(44:29):
they, they, they're veryobservant.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
I've never met a tribal person that was not
observant.
And they, they know, they werevery much aware a long time
before we were of what kept thatecosystem going out there that
they depended on.
Sure, and another short storythat one of my hobbies is
(44:54):
raising purple martins.
I don't know if you've everheard of those things, but
they're a bird that only catchesflying insects.
They once made their nests hereall over the country.
Well, there were some thatlived in saguaro cactuses out in
the southwest, but they oncelived mostly in woodpecker holes
(45:19):
and oak trees.
That's the only species thatwas domesticated by native
people.
And what they did?
They kept noticing this strangepurple bird.
What the bird does?
It catches flying insects.
I've got a couple of hundred ofthem up here in my place in
(45:43):
Kentucky.
But the insects they caughtwere tiny flying insects, the
same kind that ate the maize andthe beans and the pumpkins and
the squash that the tribes grew.
So they came up with the idea.
They also grew gourds.
So they came up with the ideaof planting a few gourds, just
(46:08):
old dipper gourds, cut anopening in it and lo and behold
these birds, which always comeback to where they raise their
young and they winter in Brazil.
They fly all the way to Brazil,all of the parents and the
young of the year, thousands ofmiles.
It's seven man.
(46:31):
It's several days flying overthe Gulf of Mexico and then they
go all the way to Brazil andlive in the jungles down there
until spring comes to NorthAmerica and then they come back
to where they raised their youngthe year before.
But when you talk aboutcontributions that Native
(46:53):
Americans have made, as I getinto this business of getting
them involved, I want to try touh, install a purple martin
colony at every tribal or everyplace they put this stuff.
Put, put a few gourds up thereand get some martins to come in
there, just to tell that story.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, no, it's.
It reminds me of like, the, thebats, like, and we have a lot
of bat colonies here in Texasand they actually have, you know
, I'm not sure exactly.
I think it was some type ofradar system where they're able
to see where they fly out eachnight and they go over all these
.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
They're able to bounce off and they know what's
out there.
They can identify a flyinginsect.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
And they go and they get these insects that are over
these agricultural fields and Ithink people don't understand
how birds and bats and how manydifferent things are
contributing to our way of lifeon a day-to-day basis and
keeping our food system safe,and these are things that have
been in play for millennia.
And if we start to mess withthose things, it's going to be
(48:00):
detrimental to our future andour children's and
grandchildren's future.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's exactly right and that's part of the
educational process that couldbe explained If we were able to
do some of this filming.
That would include thecontributions.
My own personal contribution ofbelief is that our early
Caucasian ancestors whosuccessfully fought the British
(48:30):
during the Revolutionary War, welearned to fight that way from
the Indians and had we not donethat, we'd all have a heavy
British accent today, I think,if we had not done that.
But there's a bunch of stufflike that that could be
(48:50):
recognized and could beidentified as part of the
culture.
You know these people, theircontribution to how we live
today.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Sure, it's a shoulders of giants thing, man.
The people who moved into anarea had no idea about the
horticulture and being able togrow.
They looked to the people whodid it successfully for
millennia and thatorticultureand being able to grow you.
They looked to the people whowere did it successfully for
millennia and that's how theywere able to adapt.
And then it's a.
There's a the lakota saying,which is we are all related, we
(49:24):
are all one, we all.
There's nothing that separatesus.
We all in this way, all all theorganisms, every single animal,
every plant, flora, fauna.
And I think the sooner werecognize that and we learn to
find our strengths within thesedifferent communities in order
to be able to preserve theseways of life that we love so
dear, that's exactly right.
(49:44):
It's what we have to do.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
And I see that as being a major goal.
I see that as being a majorgoal.
The other thing that strikes me, George, is tribal people have
a better land ethic, if you will, than most of us do.
They have more respect for theland out there, and I know
(50:08):
Cherokee, my old buddy, theCherokee elder, explained it
this way to me.
He said most of us spend ourlives taken from the land and
what we have to understand isthere comes a time when we have
to give back to the land, andthe way I think we give back is
(50:29):
to use this piece of hamburgerhere between our ears and try to
correct the damage that we'vealready done, you know, to the
land and recognize thecontributions that these other
Americans, the tribal people,have made to this whole effort.
And I think there's some realpotential there to bring that
(50:51):
story out.
You know and I'm babbling again, so forgive me- no, no
forgiveness needed.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
I think all these things are important.
When you were talking about theidea of working with the
Forestry Service and with thetribes, it also reminded me too
and I've done it on my ownfamily land here in Texas is
working with your local USDAagent, your NRCS.
There's different programs thatare out there.
We've taken out these invasivespecies well, animal too with
(51:23):
hogs and stuff.
We've done it with trees andshrubs and we've replanted
native grasses and there's fundsthere for that.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yes, and travel people could easily be a part of
that absolutely really could itis it's important.
Yes, it is, and uh, I don'tknow, I I feel very hopeful, uh,
uh, about continuing with this,but I would really treasure any
inputs or advice you've got, asas we move on with it.
(51:54):
Scott is really into it, he'sreally helping me with this and
uh, so uh, but if you've got anythoughts on it, uh, I would
love to hear any advice for itall.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
I definitely my, my wheels are spinning every time
I'm thinking about it.
So there's, uh, there's a lotof tribes that I've worked with
and traveled with and haverelationships with that I'd love
to chat and introduce you with.
So we'll, you know, we'lldefinitely, you know, continue
to keep that.
Uh, you know those seeds ofplanning and uh, um, you know,
before we kind of separate fortoday, I wanted to ask you, with
(52:32):
all the things that you'redoing, and you know, I know, at
the end of your Ted talk youkind of mentioned too that you
know, you know your dad would beproud of the fact that you have
gotten involved and are workingon something that is so near
and dear to his heart and theancestors and all those people
for hundreds of years, and I was.
It kind of got me thinking about.
(52:53):
You know, a question I ask alot of my guests is is one about
legacy and how you view yourlegacy or how you want it to be.
You know something like what isit that you hope that you're
leaving behind and that you'reremembered by, and the?
You know whether it's amovement, a personal,
professional thing, and you know, just, is that something that
you know at this stage of yourlife you kind of think about,
(53:14):
and is it something that youshare, a belief that you'd like
to you know expand upon a littlebit with us today.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
Well, I do a lot of thinking about that.
One of the things that turns meoff is running into people that
appear to worship themselves.
You know, they think that I'mthe only one that's important,
(53:41):
and because when you, if you getto that point where all that's
important is that, dude, you'relooking at the mirror, at,
there's no room left forkindness to anybody else.
And I think there is much to bedone in this arena.
I call it leaving tracks.
(54:04):
You know, to leave some tracksand we left tracks back in the
old days and the native peoplealso.
Learning to read tracks was anart form, you know.
Their lives depended on it, andsometimes it was to bountiful
(54:34):
chunk of land that was usefulfor the tribe or something that
was good for the tribe.
And leaving tracks sometimesinvolved maybe drawing a little
arrow on the ground or breakinga branch so that those tracks
could be followed, you know, orbreaking a branch so that those
(54:54):
tracks could be followed, youknow, and if I weren't 80 years
old, I'd give some thoughts totrying to put this in a book
form or some way to, because Ithink as a species, as a country
, I think as a species, as acountry, the land ethic thing is
(55:25):
one that I think if we reallyfocused on that and have some
talented Native Americans and Ithink that with just a little
bit of work with some of thetribal people, we would probably
discover that their land ethic,how they viewed the land, their
respect for it, it's verysimilar, you know, because just
their history, I mean they,there are eons that they spent
depending on these ecosystems.
(55:50):
And I think about how ourcitizenry today could benefit
from having a land, that levelof respect for the woods, the
ecosystems, the streams, becausewhen you look at this thing
that bothers me of bringing inevery strange insect.
(56:11):
They come in through worldtrade or international travel.
We're not going to stop tradingor traveling internationally,
but we need to do somethingbecause there's no indication
that this is going to slow downand the damage will continue.
The only way to fix that, Ithink, is to try to instill,
(56:37):
particularly in our young people, a different way of looking at
the land, that it's not justsomething to look at but it's
our lives right there.
We kind of owe that to ourpeople.
(56:57):
I think If we could start toupgrade that land ethic and I
don't know whose role that is alot of agencies and a lot of
people would play a role in that, for example a forest service.
If we're in the business oftrying to restore some of the
damage that's been done whenignorance prevailed, you know,
(57:22):
think about the improvements toour quality of life if we could
just stop this damage.
It's almost epidemic now andwith good science and good
technology I'd like to see thateffort continue.
But I think that this tribalthing, I consider those folks
(57:57):
the indigenous people and Ithink back when in my youth, and
you may remember this, therewas an advertisement.
I think they called it thecrying Indian the guy that's
actually shedding some tearswhen he saw people throwing
garbage out the car window.
But I think there'sopportunities to really make
(58:19):
some headway for all our peopleon a better land ethic, an ethic
that suits better our needs andthose of our grandkids, and I
think we owe it to them, youknow, to try to do that.
I hope some way we can get that, and I think I'd love to see
(58:42):
the Native people play a role intrying to get this word out.
Uh, get this word out, you know, maybe in the video, when we
video some of their culture, getsome of their best speakers and
let them, let them address thisand and get it down on film
(59:02):
babbling, yeah, no these are.
Speaker 1 (59:05):
These are great things, man.
I'm so glad you shared it andthat you know you're continuing
to kind of build your vision andshare it and, like you, shared
it too with me and all thelisteners here today, and I know
that I'll be putting down allthe notes to some of the
organizations we spoke about toyour TED Talk link.
(59:25):
I think everyone needs to gosee that.
It's about 10 minutes give ortake and it's wonderful.
It kind of gives a goodsynopsis of what you know you're
working towards and, uh, youknow you and I will just kind of
keep in touch and see how wecan kind of help each other
along with this, and I'm onceagain, man I'm so honored that
you came and joined me today,and I and uh, uh, the same here,
(59:46):
the same here.
Speaker 2 (59:47):
you, uh, you've made my day, so I just uh, I want to
stay in touch at yourconvenience, but uh, uh, I think
, I think this thing has a lotof potential and you can uh, you
can give us some tremendoushelp with it as you ponder on it
.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah Well, I look forward to be a part of every
step that you, everything you'redoing, so rex, thank you again
for joining me and uh, yeah,we'll uh maybe have to meet up
and have you on again soon,sometime we'll do that, buddy.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
All right, you have a great day and I want to read
more about your deer down therealso working on another article.
Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
I'll send it your way .
All right, that'll be great youtake care.
Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
good day, thanks for what you do, thank you.
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