February 14, 2024 • 55 mins
Jordan Patrick, Director of Mobile for Tru Spec Golf, joins CH3 to discuss all things club fitting: simple hacks, gaining distance and what to look for when testing out new clubs. Most people are timid when it comes to seeking help with equipment but Jordan demystifies and simplifies the process, while stressing it's importance for golfers of all levels.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
It's the Son of a Butcher podcast. We come to
you every Wednesday. This week, don't get to a topic
that we haven't really gotten to discuss. Club fitting. True
Spec it's one of the big club fitting outfits here
in the US, and we have their mobile fitting card
here and Jordan Patrick as one of the fitters. He's
helped me with my game and I just think so
(00:27):
many players could benefit from getting fit properly. I think
a lot of players are scared to get fit. They
think it's coln they think it's going to be a
waste of money. But I promise you you make some serious,
serious gains by getting club fit, by understanding what club
fitting is all about. So let's get to it with
Jordan Patrick. My guest today is Jordan Patrick. He works
(00:54):
for True Spec. They do club fitting. Jordan, how many
locations do you guys have across the United States?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Currently twenty four locations and for mobile unis and.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
You're part of and you're part of the mobile team.
It's been really cool to have you guys here on
site here at the learning center at the Floridian. Clubfitting
is something that I think a lot of golfers get
scared of I think a lot of people think that
there's some sort of kind of voodoo, kind of magic
that clubfitters are trying to sell you golf equipment.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
And then there's also golfers that think, listen, I'm not
good enough to take a club fitting. But as you
and I both know, I think every golfer, if you
can get the golf ball airborne, if you're playing golf,
if you're just not a beginner who's just hitting golf
balls on a driving right, but if you're venturing out
on the golf course, club fitting is vital for you
(01:52):
to get done for your game. I see it at
the highest level on tour all the time, right, the
difference between changing a shaft, changing lofts, changing a set makeup.
But for the average regular golfer that's listening, what do
you feel is the single most important thing that club
(02:13):
fitting can do for a player.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So club fitting is not always going to be, Hey,
we're going to gain as much distance as we can.
Everyone wants to gain distance, but you know, just limiting
to one miss is huge. It can take your scores down.
But making it just that way, they're all the same
throughout the set too, and that way you're not getting
hand me downs, but that allows you to kind of
have consistency throughout the set. Whether your tour first time
(02:38):
playing can all make a difference.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I think a lot of golfers when they start out,
they're getting golf equipment from parents, fathers, friends, other people,
and they're getting golf clubs that they have. I mean
it's a little bit like going to a pharmacy and
saying that you've got an ill and they give you
a pill box and you don't actually know what's in it,
(03:03):
and you're just going to take it and you're surprised
that you're not feeling any better.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Definitely. Yeah, So a lot of people they'll get a
set of clubs and where they'll have a couple of
clubs that actually do the same thing. So, you know,
getting something truly fit for you is huge.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
When we look at So let's go through the bag.
I mean, obviously, I think most people are getting club fit.
I would say for drivers more so than they are
for putters, wedges or irons. Drivers seem to be, in
my experience, the thing that people are changing the most
people aren't. I don't see golfers on mask changing their
(03:42):
irons on a regular basis. But putters and drivers seem
to be the quick, interchangeable. They also seem to be
the thing that all the manufacturers seem to come out
with yearly on a regular basis. So every year, all
of the manufacturers that everybody uses, they're all coming out
with new drivers, they're all coming out with new equipment.
(04:04):
So let's start with drivers and work our way down
to irons and then wedges and putters. From a driver standpoint, Jordan,
I know it's it's it's hard to generalize, but you
do this almost you know, three hundred days a year.
What do you see from a fit standpoint that would
(04:24):
be a generalization, but that somebody can that's listening can
learn with what do you see across the board that
players are coming in and you're changing their driver because
of what?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So most players think that just by going down on
the loft, they're going to hit it further. But with
that decrease in loft and most of the loft sleeves
across the manufacturers, going down in the loft, we're also
opening the face. So they just take that wrench, they
crank it down. They'll be like, hey, I'm gonna hit
it further.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So if you've got a ten let's say you've got
a ten and a half degree driver. All the drivers
now are adjusted. They've all got different settings to where
you can adjust what the loft is right, So you've
got the ten to five, you're hitting that kind of
high week spinning shot, you think, or someone that's got
an eight degree driver or a nine degree driver says, hey,
(05:15):
I've got a nine degree and they hit it further.
Just turn the loft down. So how does turning the
loft down make the face go more open?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So by going down a loft, the face is open
about one to one ratio. So for every degree of
loft we take off, the face is opening for that much.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So if you're a slicer of the golf ball and
you're losing distance, which I think most people that are
listening to this podcast, I think if everybody that's listening
raise their hands, the majority of people, their miss is
probably going to be some sort of miss to the right.
I mean, that's the thing that I see giving golf
lessons across the board over the course of a year
(05:52):
with regular golfers, even even lower handicap golfers, the miss
tends to be to the right. Do you see that
as well with the driver?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, more people right than like that.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
High spinny right one. So if that's your miss, you
then knock the loft down to eight degrees because you're
losing distance. So now the face is going to come
in more open, and if you're already swinging left in
the path has already opened. The faces already open the
death move. So how does the average golfer that's losing distance,
(06:22):
that's slicing the golf ball to the right. What are
some of the fixes that you as a club fitter
can do from an equipment standpoint.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
So we can go to something that is definitely lighter
than what they're playing, because most average golfers they play
something that's too heavy and too stiff. So by getting
something that is going to be lighter, softer, it'll allow
them to close the face and make a more natural
move and having to work with something that's just not
for them. But now all the heads are adjustable, so
you have tons of flexibility to make them more upright,
(06:53):
draw biased, move the center gravity back, make them hit
it higher but not actually spin it. Because that's the
highest misconception is that a lot of golfers think just
because I hit it hot, it's gonna spin. But you
can still hit it high and not have it spin
a ton and then it's not affected by the wind.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Right, So give me a life hack for the fifteen
handicapper that's spinning it a lot missing it to the right,
like you said, and again, I see this in golf
lessons all the time. Right across the board. I think
the average golfer has equipment that they fundamentally just don't
(07:30):
they can't use. It's a little bit. I always look
at club fitting and looking at getting a set of
golf cours or getting golf clubs. Like cars like race cars, right,
Racing cars are designed a formula. When race car is
designed to be driven at the speed that maxverstaff and
drives it. If I try and do that, I don't
know how to drive, so I'm going to crash the car.
(07:52):
Golf equipment I see is very similar. I see a
lot of golfers massively influenced by television. I see them
massively influence Jordan by television and by what they hear
on TV. I see that from a distance standpoint. I
know you guys see that as well. Talk to me
about the misconception in how far players hit their drivers
(08:17):
and what I'm always saying to drivers, and I think
you'd agree with this. We need to give you usable
distance distance. It doesn't matter if you hit the golf
ball a long way and it's going offline. We need
you to So what's a life hack for the slicer?
Where do the weights need to be in the head?
All the heads now have interchangeable weight, So you're high,
(08:39):
you're hitting it to the right, it's spinning a lot,
and you're losing distance. So from a head makeup, what
can players that are listening say, Okay, what can I
do with the head of the driver if I'm slicing
the golf ball? Where do I put the weights?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yep, So for that player that's going to slice it,
the first setting would be to get to an upright setting.
So definitely don't want to go down and loft all
those things. But since all the drivers in that middle
category of you know your core models are going to
have that adjustable weight, move that weight into the heel,
let that toe close quicker for a right handed golfer,
and then.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
The weight, so a heavier weight in the heel a
lighter weight out on the toe is going to help
get that club to feel like it's closing. Yes, okay,
And when we're looking at weights at the back of
drivers on the head, that's affecting the CG of where
that is talk to us. We hear that a lot.
(09:33):
I think a lot of people get confused and don't
want to go to club fitting because they hear terms
of things with golf clubs that they don't necessarily understand.
So when we're talking about CG, that's the center of
gravity in the head of the driver, how does that
affect what the ball is doing?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So that's going to affect what the ball does because
so if we have the center gravity further back in
the head, it is going to be more forgiving, it's
going to launch higher. But then if you just take
that same weight and move it to the front, you
are generally going to get more balls being lower spin
for those players just with the same headset up in
the neutral setting all those things just flipping that can
change your spin by you know, anywhere from four to
six hundred RPMs and ad and forgive forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
The Holy Grail and driver fitting obviously is high launch,
low spin. I mean, that's DJ. Last week we were
looking at spin numbers. He's got a new driver in
the bag this year, and where we know he plays
his best when he's long. I mean, and here's the
other thing. I don't think the average golfer listening realizes
how much loft some of the best players in the
(10:34):
world have in their driver. I mean, DJ is over.
I think he's probably right now close to eleven degrees
of loft, which the average golfer would think that DJ
would be playing with something that's kind of around the
eight to nine range. So when you've got that driver
and you're trying to figure it out the cg of
(10:55):
where that is more forgiving to the back. So if
if it has weights where you can put a weight
at the front and a weight at the back, you're
going to want to have the weight or what we
would call back weight that driver. Right. And then DJ,
when he plays his best, spins it kind of in
that eighteen hundred to two thousand range, right, and he's
(11:16):
launching it at ten or eleven. That is very optimal
if you have his type of speed. What we see
a lot of the average golfer do is there the
opposite with the driver, they have high launch or low
launch and massively high spin. So if we can reverse that.
(11:39):
One of the easy ways what I hear you saying
is listen, get that weight more in the heel so
the toe's going to close, and then get that weight
as far back as possible. Get the heaviest weight back.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yep. Definitely at lower speeds, heaviest weight back, and don't
be afraid to use the loft because quite honestly, the
more loft we're adding, the easier it is to close
that face.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Which is the opposite I think of what a lot
of the people listening feel like. They feel like the
way they're going to get that face closed is to
d loft the driver, and that's going to shut it down.
But as soon as they de loft it at address,
it's going to set up open and then it's going
to come in more that way. Talk to me Jordan
about where players are hitting it on the face with
(12:25):
the driver. Again, generalizations, but if you have the generalize,
do you guys see more heel strikes with the average
handicapped golfer or do we see more toe strikes?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So I would say that it's definitely more heel strikes.
But the one that goes I mean better for more
people to know would be that high and low is
more effective than hel in tow. So a lot of
players strike it very very low on the face, which
is going to be the spinniest driver. They all just
want to te it lower, and they figure when they
tee it lower, they're going to hit it lower, but
really they're hitting it low on the face, so it's
(12:56):
spinning more, and then it's going to be higher. So
t at higher, spin it and get more distance.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Again, I when we're watching players and I'm watching and
giving golf lessons to the average golfer, one of the things,
especially with the driver, I'm constantly telling them, T the
golf ball higher. T the golf ball higher, which is
so again, golf is counterintuitive. Everybody that I'm telling to
t the golf ball higher already has the idiot marks
(13:22):
on top of the golf ball. They've already got marks
on the top of their driver anyway, So the disconnect
in their brain is like no, no, no, I'm already
slicing it. I'm already hitting it high, it's already going short.
I've already got a bunch of ballmarks kind of on
the top crown of my driver. Now you want me
(13:43):
to get more loft t it higher? That just doesn't
sound logical.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Why does that work? So that works just because we
are spinning it less and it's going to force them
to hit up on it a little more. And a
lot of golfers they just don't. They don't want to
change their swing. They just want to change into a
new product. But hitting up on it is going to
be the easiest way for them to maximize their distance.
So there comes a point of return where you can
only put so much in and get so much out.
(14:12):
We're not just magically going to gain twenty five yards
by use swinging the same swing and getting a new head.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I think that's another big misconception in driver fitting. Everyone
is looking for the silver bull, I mean the magic bullet, right,
Everyone's looking Marina Alex who I've had on the pod.
Marina plays on the LPGA Tour. Marina's you know, under
five foot five. She doesn't have a ton of speed.
(14:38):
The holy grail for her is getting more distance. But
there aren't unicorns out there. And I think a lot
of golfers think that their equipment is going to be
this unicorn to where they're going to get a new driver,
they're going to hit it thirty yards further. Let's say
you're hitting your driver and you're spinning it at you know,
(14:58):
you're spinning it in kind of the mid three thousands
to four thousands. You're launching it low, it's curving to
the right, and it's carrying you know, two fifteen to
two twenty in the air. How by all of the
things that you've talked about, if we knock the spin off,
(15:19):
so if the spin goes from thirty eight hundred with
a driver to thirty two hundred, what does that mean
in distance?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
So that's gonna you might not necessarily notice it in
the air, but once it hits the ground then it's
going to start running. But adding that spin keeping it
more straight, then it's going to be more consistent on
a golf course. And that's what a lot of players
don't realize is that, hey, hitting you know eight fairways
out of twelve instead of four is huge.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah. And the other thing that if you look at
the best drivers of the golf ball in the world,
then listen, I'm unbelievably lucky to work with two of
them in Brooks and DJ. One of the things that
they do when they're drive, when they hit the drivers,
it's I always think of it like an airplane. The
airplane is taking off, it gets up to altitude, and
(16:08):
then it doesn't keep climbing. The average golfer has that
driver swing to where the ball is getting up in
the air and then it's continuing to rise up. That's
the other thing than when we look at trying to
change it. If we can change the land angle, the
angle of descent to where the ball isn't coming down
(16:29):
like a like a lob wedge, to where it's getting
out and it's coming down flatter, you're going to get
more roll. That's one of the things when I watch
you do driver fittings. I always hear you say, listen,
that's going to roll. That ball is now going to
roll when it hits the ground. Because so many people
with their drivers, they spin it so much and they
hit it so high, it comes down basically soft like
(16:52):
it would be on a really really soft green and
has no roll. And again I've heard you say we
can get you some more distance on the ground. What
does that mean?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
So you know, flattening that descent angle out. It doesn't
matter where you play. The ball is going to carry away.
It carries but allowing it to then roll out once
it's on the ground, versus spinning more to the right.
So you know, lowering that CG moving it more towards
the ford, it might flatten the ball flight out a
little bit, but spin is going to be your biggest factor.
And a lot of people just don't realize that their
(17:23):
height is not from them hitting it high, but they're
actually spinning it high. So then it's now we're losing
on both ends.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
For the regular average golfer, non competitive golfer in that
kind of ten to twenty handicap range. Give us some
numbers from a launch standpoint and from a spin standpoint
that everyone listening could say, Okay, let me see if
I can get on a launch monitor. Go get and
(17:54):
see what would you like to see what would be
optimal playability wise for you launch.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Spin wise, So playability wise launching from you know, anywhere
from twelve to sixteen degrees is plenty high, and then
the lowest spin we can have the better. So anywhere
from twenty two hundred to twenty six hundred is very
playable for the average golfer not swinging it, you know,
much higher than one hundred miles per hour. A lot
of people just don't realize that they are being so
(18:21):
left out on distance, but really what they're putting in,
they can't get much more out of it, so tightening
up that forgiveness, launching it high, hitting fairways is huge.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
We've talked about the club head. More so than the
club head, the biggest miss that I see with people
with their drivers is the shaft. They are playing shafts
that you mentioned it that are too stiff and they're
too heavy. Why is that?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
You know, it's like the old one, Like everyone just
has those clubs that they've played forever, and times have changed.
Everything's becoming so much more light and soft now versus
heavy and stiff. So as we'll play something light and
swing it faster, hit the center of the face more,
and tolerances are just becoming so high from shaft manufacturers.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I'll give you. I haven't told you this story, and
I'm sure Brooks wouldn't mind me. Toning is he played
terrible on Saturday I Live and I watched him and
he was missing fairways the first four or five holes.
He's missing fairways by forty yards. Hen't do that there,
He can't do that there, right, So he basically just
hit three wood the rest of the round. So the
(19:29):
driver that he was using the day before cracked broke,
so he put a new driver in. You're not gonna
believe this. For some reason, he had a sixty gram
shaft in his bag, and his gamer shaft is a
seventy gram shaft. He just put the other head. So
he took the head, the broken head off, put it on,
(19:52):
and he didn't even think and he just grabbed the sixty.
So halfway through the round he realizes she using a
sixty gram shaft versus a seventy gram shaft. Now, for
everybody that's listening, that's basically like choosing a car that's
got You're in a race and they tell you the
car has got three hundred horsepower, and all of a sudden,
you get in and it has two hundred. At his speed,
(20:12):
that ten gram difference is enormous because now the driver
becomes much more unstable at the speed he's swinging.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
That for sure, at his speed, that's a huge change.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I mean, we got done, and the three of us
sat there and we went I think that's a first
for us, and it's not one that you would think
because you're just not thinking right. And it's out of
all the things that driver. I mean, Ricky Elliott always
is counting how many clubs he's got in the bag
Brooks's caddy, and there was one time that Brooks was tested.
(20:48):
This is probably eight years ago. Brooks was testing a
driver and they put it on and they didn't click
it all in place, so we hit it. It kind
of moved. So now it's mandatory for Ricky before every
single all the woods, he's going to go through with
the wrench, and Brooks makes him do it. He says, hey,
check all the woods. So checking the shaft is just
(21:10):
not something you're not going to think that you're going
to have a different shaft in, but it had such
a major effect on it. So my point behind that
is if if ten grams of weight affects the best
player in the world, if you're playing with something that's
got that's too stiff and too heavy, again, if you're
(21:31):
a slicer of the golf ball, the golf club, the
club head has no chance to catch up and close
itself without you having to do something with your hands
for sure.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
I mean not enough people ever think about like letting
the club close.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
So but technology, now, the shaft technology in the last
I think in the last five years, the way that
you know, the auto flex shaft some of these really
really ultra light shaft that have some kick at the bottom.
When we talk about flex points and kick points, we're
always hearing that there are shafts that are kind of
(22:11):
low spin shafts, and then there are shafts that are
going to have a little bit more high spin. What
does that mean in Layman's term for the average golf
if somebody says, hey, that's a low spinning shaft, or
that's a high spinning shaft, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
So basically what that means is a shaft is broken
down into three categories, so like the tip, the middle,
and then the butt. So where that is flexing for
that particular shaft is going to determine more or less
on paper what that's going to be higher, launch, loading, spin,
all those things. So generally a stiffer tip is going
to be lower spinning than something with a softer tip.
(22:48):
But the biggest thing that plays into that too is
for the where you need the flex is going to
be how hard you load the golf club. So somebody
that loads it super hard is not generally going to
have super success with a off their mudded shaft. They're
going to lose awareness of where that club head is.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
The other thing that I don't think people listening with
shaft technology realize some of the best long drivers in
the world are not using stiff shafts. I mean, I
mean Kyle Berkshire's shaft isn't what you would think it
would be. Bryson has talked a lot about that. Bryson
has said, listen, you know when I was doing long drive,
I was trying to get as whippy shafts as I
(23:26):
could get. You wouldn't think that that would be the
case because you would think, at the speed he's trying
to hit the golf ball, he's going to need as
much stability at the bottom. But the long drive guys,
they're trying to get as much load and they put
a lot of force on the handle, so they need
the golf club to be a little bit more flexible
(23:47):
and have that kick at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Definitely, they're looking for that rubber band effect at the bottom,
which is what just letting that club head passed the
hands at impact, and if the tip is too stiff,
that thing is never going to pass.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
When we hear another term that I hear a lot
of people that is out there is are we going
to tip the tour? They're always talking about if if
a player on tour is going to get a driver
shaft made, the builder is the first thing he's going
to say, are we are we? Are we tipping this
or are we not? What does tipping the shaft mean
from a driver standpoint? And what is it? What effect
(24:22):
does it have?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So tipping the driver's shaft is just basically going to
be when they install it, they're going to cut extra
off the tip. So basically, when a manufacturer sells us
a shaft, they say, hey, you want to cut half
an inch off the tip, and then from there it's
we're adding stiffness to that tip section and then the
rest is cut from the butt.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
So the more you cut off the tip at the bottom,
the stiffer.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
The stiffer it's going to get, okay, and then we
can cut off the butt just for the length, but
it's not really changing the profile of the shaft.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Where's a grip is if we take any length. So
let's say someone's got a forty five degree driver and
they want to get a little bit more control, role
go to forty three. You could cut off the top
and it's not really going to change the shaft profile
at the bottom or in the middle on how it.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Works, correct, It's just going to change that length. But
tipping it will change how that shaft affects.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
So obviously all of the bombers, guys like Gary Woodland,
all the guys with big speed they need they want
to tip.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
They want to tip it.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So if they need it stiff at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yep, so they'll tip anywhere from an inch to two
inches on most of those guys drivers.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
But a lot of the amateurs are like, hey, you
know so and so's tipping it. Well, really, you're swinging
fifteen miles per hour slower than he is. You don't
need that shaft to be any stiffer than it is.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So you helped me get a new driver and we
worked on the shaft and one of the shafts you
put me in that new Vanquish.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
From miss Specie.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Okay, that type of shaft. I think everybody's building something
like that in that range. Now, that type of shaft
is doing what.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
So it's allowing the tip section to be softer than
the rest of the shaft, allow players that do early
extend all of those things get the clubhead to come
through the impact zone.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Because that was something that in talking to Dave Phillips,
who've had on the podcast before from the titleist performance,
that they were looking at, you know, when that new
Vanquish came out, they were you know, Jimmy Walker was
crushing that thing.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
He was playing the auto flex.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, he was playing the auto flex and he was
crushing that. He's got a lot of early extension. But
the way that club loads and the way it comes
into the ball, Dave was saying, it was almost like
it was an anti thrust fixer. You could still thrust,
but if you've got a shaft at the bottom thrust,
(26:44):
meaning when we when we when we're setting up to
the golf ball, if you think about where your lower
body is on the downswing, if the pelvis is moving
closer to the ball you're extending, then the upper body
has to go back. So there are guys that do
that Jimmy Walker is one of them. So a little
bit more kick at the bottom again helps square the
(27:04):
club face up at the bottom without you feeling it's
the player like you have to do it so much
with your hands.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, and it doesn't necessarily feel soft in any means,
but allowing that to close is huge for a lot
a lot of golfers to gain distance and ball speed
and at the end of the day, spin it lass.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And I think since the auto flex came out, you
know auto Flex, Korean right technology, you know pink shaft,
you know twelve and what's it like? You got to
you gotta get a new mortgage for your house to
get one of these shafts, right, But what I think
the market and all the manufacturers have gone, okay, let's
take that and let's put a version of that in
(27:42):
our lineup. So I think all the shaft manufacturers are
making something that's going to have a little bit more
kick at the bottom, so that if you are someone
that needs distance, or you are someone that needs that
face to close, that would be what if you're that player? Right,
what model of shafts should be players be looking at
(28:04):
if they want, if they if they're slicing it if
they want a little bit of distance and they want
that bottom part of the shaft at the bottom to
square up. Give me some names that that shafts that
people could look at.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, so it's definitely definitely different for any kind of speed.
But in that average golfer range, you can go auto
flex Missubgie Vanquish, like a C six red from Missubichi Chemical.
There's a lot of good options. I mean, each line
has a good option. And generally, when you look at
a shaft wall, the ones that are colored in red
are generally going to mean that throughout the whole shaft
(28:40):
manufacturing thing. So anything that's red is generally gonna be
a little softer. That tip's gonna close all those things.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Obviously, all the tour players, Brooks plays the Black Blacks
seventy X, I mean, that's as stiff as I mean, yeah,
and it's funny Brooks has got a really stiff driver.
I mean, DJ's use that forever, right, I Mean, that's
just there are players that play with the same shaft
(29:09):
all the time, and then there are players that kind
of move around. I think in DJ's case, it's just
I think it's a comfort thing more than anything else.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
I think it's he's Brooks is the same, right. I
mean you could try and get him out of the
driver shaft that he was working with, right. Brooks will
mess around with lofts and heads and stuff like that,
but the one thing that he will not budge on
is the shaft. And anytime any of the manufacturers that
he'd been with have talked to him about, hey, you know,
(29:43):
maybe we try a little bit different shaft and stuff,
and he always says the same thing. The shaft in
my driver has won me five majors. I'm not changing it, okay,
But for the average golfers it's almost the opposite. Don't
be afraid to go try. So what questions from a
driver fitting? For everyone listening if they are going to
(30:03):
get fit, what question should they be asking you guys
as the fitters. So I think that's something that's massively important.
I've said that before. I gave a pod I think
last year on how to take a golf lesson as
the player what you should be asking and looking for
from the instructor. So for everyone listening, if they are
(30:24):
going to get club fit, what are the questions they
need to be asking the club fitter.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
So one big question is, hey, what is actually achievable
for what I'm putting in is a lot of people
want to get that super extra distance, but really that
speed that they're at, they're maxing it out. So at
that point we need to get forgiveness and be realistic that, hey,
I might not gain all the yards, but hitting something
more in the middle consistently across at the course of
(30:50):
the round is huge. Another one is, hey, what is
a good spin rate for my speed range? And then
a good Another thing that a lot of people don't
think about is set makeups the board is like, just
because hey, go into a three wood, Hey we're going
to hit it further, we might not just because the
five wood launching higher, spinning higher.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah, So that's the next part of this. So and
I think the most forgotten part of club fitting are
from where the irons end and the driver begins. So
whatever your last iron in your bag is and then
where you are in your driver, what is in between there?
I think for everyone listening that is looking to improve
(31:31):
their scores, hybrids, five woods, three woods, to me, that's
a lot of low hanging fruit because I see a
lot of players that their putters are good, the wedges,
the irons, the driver, but what they've kind of got
in between is just garbage and it's not not helping them.
(31:52):
So again average goal for loft wise, and the modern
three woods, you know this, the longer the hitter, the
harder it is to find a three wood, because the
three woods today go way too far, which you would
think would be great. But like DJ says, they give
(32:13):
him sometimes three woods and he's like, that goes as
far as my driver. I have no possible way to
use that because if I do try and hit it
into a par five, I can't hold the green. So
from a three wood standpoint, and again DJ's got a
shit ton of loft on his three wood, but I
see fifteen twenty handicappers have thirteen degrees three woods, and
(32:37):
I'm like, what what are you going to do with this?
You're certainly not going to get in the air. So
from a three wood standpoint, where do you think that
you think most people have two They don't.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Have enough loft in the three where they don't have
enough loft, and a lot of people turn those three
woods down too opening the face. I mean, you got
to be able to launch it. So I mean a
lot of the manufacturers this year did make three hls,
which is gonna be like a sixteen sixteen and a
half degree three wood versus a fifteen. But definitely a
lot of amateur golfers come in with something that's twelve
thirteen degrees and I'm like, that's really your driver.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
So with the three wood with the ball now being
on the ground, not on the tee, so obviously, I
think what everybody needs to realize is there are two
swings in golf. Right there is the driver swing and
there is the iron swing. The iron swing the ball
is on the ground, you need to have an angle
of attack to where the angle of attack is down.
(33:29):
You're hitting down on the golf ball. Hitting down on
it is going to get it up. When we hit
a driver, we put it on a tee. If we
hit down on that.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
It's still gonna go up.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's still gonna go up, but it's going to spin
a lot. So with the driver, you're trying to hit
up on it. And unfortunately, and I know you see this,
I think I see over a year, I see more
golfers have a driver swing with their irons. They don't
take dibbots. They don't get the golf ball in the air,
(34:02):
and then they have an iron swing with their drivers
where they're skying it. They're hitting it off the top
of the driver. With the driver, you're trying to swing up.
With the iron, you're trying to swing down. But three
woods Jordan are so hard for the average golfer to
hit because I think they don't realize the golf balls
on the ground if you try and swing up on it,
(34:24):
it's not on a tee like the driver. Most people
would be surprised that some of the best players in
the world, and you know this, with the three wood,
they take a little bit of a divot because they
are hitting down on it. So if you don't have
enough loft on your three wood and then you're trying
to hit up on it and it's not on a tee,
(34:44):
that is a recipe for top spin. Four hands basically
barely get over the neck, so higher loft in the
three wood.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Don't be afraid to play a seven either. I mean,
if you're going to go up in your three, then
having a three, five and seven there can be some
overlap there.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
So this.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Don't be afraid to skip one.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Dustin Johnson currently has a seven wood and a nine
wood in his back. Why because the irons that are
replacing that he hits them so flat that he can't
hold the green. So the nine wood in the seven
wood allows him to come into greens softer and not
(35:23):
have just low kind of head height bullets iron replacements
handicap ranges to get. I mean, I don't have. The
longest iron I have in my bag is a six iron, right,
Because I've tested you and I have gone through this,
(35:44):
You're like, dude, you hit this hybrid way more consistent
than you hit the five hybrid way more consistent than
you hit the iron. And you've told me, with the
limited amount you have to practice and as little as
you play, you need as much help as possible. So
I have a five iron hybrid, I have a four iron.
Talk to me about hybrids. What handicap range would you
(36:09):
say for a player? Hey, bro, you need you need
to take the ego out of this equation and we
need to start to put more head covers in the
bag for.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
You for sure. So that's that's a fine line for
that breaking point of a lot of players, is hey,
is it a five iron? Is it a six iron,
where our descent angle starts to become below forty degrees,
And that's the biggest deciding factor is once that gets flat,
you're not gonna hold it on a green, so you
might as well just take some loft. Get a hybrid.
Center gravity is lower, it's going to be better out
of the rough, more forgiving hit it higher, land it softer.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Shaft wise, when we start going into hybrids, what do
players need to be looking at with regards to what
they're playing Obviously and their driver, their three, the other
there are other woods, and then what they're playing in
their irons.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
So I would say driver and fairwoods are going to
be pretty consistent between those two. General we're going to
go up and weight in our fairway woods, and then
we're also going to go up and wait in our hybrids.
But our hybrids are going to be more similar to
our iron shafts throughout the bag, just because that is
playing like a three or a four iron for most players.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And again everyone that listens if you are hitting a hybrid,
take a divot. It's basically, if you've got a hybrid
in your bag, you need to play it like it's
an iron. The same type philosophy. You don't need that.
If you've got a hybrid in your in your bag,
you do not need that golf bowl way up in
your stance like you would with your three wood or
(37:32):
your driver. It needs to be very similar to where
it would be for an iron so that you can
hit down on it. Iron technology, game improvement irons. It's
so funny. There was I can't remember the fitter's name,
(37:53):
but he was a longtime fitter out at a TPI
and they had the Chinese national team in right, that
the entire and the best kid on the Chinese national team.
So they're fitting him for irons, and they're going through
an interpreter, right, because the kid doesn't speak English, if
you heard this story. So they're going through an interpreter.
And this kid wants he wants a title. He wants
(38:13):
the Adam Scott titleist blades, right, he wants I mean,
he wants something that looks like it's from nineteen seventy one, right,
because he's the best player, right, And they're trying to
fit him into something that's got a little bit more
of kind of like a cavity back thing like that,
and he's going back and forth, and they're like, this
is the one, and that's through the interpreter back to
him and the kids getting more and more. So finally
(38:36):
the fitter says to the interpreter, He's going to hit
the golf ball. Bet what is the problem? And the kid,
in perfect English says too much offset and the top
line is too long, And the Fitter's like, now you
speak English, because I'm trying to get you into something
that's going to be a little bit more forgiving. So
my point around that story is, I think everybody wants
(38:56):
to play a blade. They want something that does and
have a lot of offset, that doesn't look clunky and big.
What are the advantages versus a forged blade type, you know,
the type of iron that Rory uses, the type of
iron that Scottie Scheffler DJ, I mean Brooks has gone
(39:17):
to that Srixon cavity. But what is the advantage for
everyone listening in game improvement irons? What does offset do?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
So offset is going to allow the player to close
the club face quicker. So now that irons have gotten
so so strong and loft compared to the stuff that
those guys are playing.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
And that's the other thing that everybody lists the best
players in the world want the golf clubs to go
the shortest. They don't need the distance. They're not looking
for rockets. I mean, I've said to Ben Showman at Cobra.
I've had them look at players and I say, hey,
what if we get this iron in his head and
he's like, he'd hit that too far, have no ability
(40:01):
to control the distance. And I'm thinking nobody thinks that
that would be what a problem would be. So, but
the average goal for needs that they need the forgiveness.
Offset means what closure? Right, So the player is looking
down at an iron, if the iron is offset, what
are they going to see.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
They're going to see where the leading edge meets the hozzle.
There's going to be a little bit of an angle there, right.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
So it's ball designed through impact again, same thing we're
talking about with the weights in the driver to get
that toe of the driver to close at the moment
of contacte gapping in irons. What should people be looking
at from their nine iron to their five iron in
(40:51):
an ideal world? What would we like.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
To see In an ideal world, We're going to see
anywhere from twelve to fifteen yards differencing gap between each iron.
So they're I mean, if we're getting to where you're
hitting your seven iron and your nine iron only ten
yards apart, we either got a loft problem or we
just need to change.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
It shaft wise for irons. Again, what are we looking
at for the regular golfer? What are some of the
things that they want to stay away from from an
iron fit shaft wise?
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So a big thing now, like we said that with
all the clubs getting so so strong, you still have
to be able to launch it and spin it. So
a lot of players are now able to play a
lighter shaft. It's higher launching, higher spinning just because those
heads are so strong, But you still have to be
able to hit it high. So just because they're you know,
you're playing a stiff driver shaft, doesn't mean you have
(41:47):
to play a stiff iron shaft. Just the technology in
that graph height, we can make it so light but
so so stable you might as well take the clubhead
speed when you can get it.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, And that's so when players are looking at the
difference between steal and graphite in their irons, what are
the advantages and what are the gains and the wins
that going to graphite could do for a player.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
So by going to graphit, we're able to move where
that shaft is kicking a lot easier. But I think you're.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Talking about with the driver at the bottom with the
tipping conversation, right.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
So by moving that weight, the flexibility to move that
weight with graphite, we can really, you know, fine tune
where it's distributed and where it's going to kick.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Cavity back irons versus more blade irons. Is there a
cutoff for you on handicap range or is it player dependent?
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I would say it's definitely player dependent. But we are
seeing more and more players get away from those traditional blades.
With all the new models that we have, they are
beginning to look better in that player's cavity players distance.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
I do think that all the manufacturers, you know, I've
been with Kroba for a long time now, I love
their quit I've said to the guy, the game improvement
stuff is starting to look more and more like the
player's irons, and that's I think that's huge, right, Yeah,
Because as golfers, again we're massively influenced by television. We
(43:12):
want to be using the stuff that our heroes are using.
But you've just got to be careful in going down
that rabbit hole of having an iron in your bag.
That again, I always say that in golf lessons, we're
trying to improve the miss. You guys in the club
fitting world are trying to do the exact same thing.
(43:36):
You're fitting for the miss, not the good shot. And
that is a big thing that I think is important
for everyone. Everyone thinks they're going to go into a
club fitting and go, Okay, my good shots are going
to get better. You guys are coming to it from
the angle the same angle that I'm coming to it
from a golf lesson. No, no, we're going to try
and make your bad shots better. We're not gonna try
and make your good shots better.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I would say that's the biggest thing that we see
as a player will be in front of us and
they won't accept their true miss, and you and I
both look at it and we say, hey, you're going
to hit it this way every time, but they're like, no,
I really actually miss it to the left. But you
know they're across it with a wide open face and
it's slicing. So it's really just accepting what you do
and making the most of it.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Parents that are listening for kids, golf equipment is expensive
that and I'm sure you get a lot of these
those those juniors that are in the they were playing
golf clubs that were too long and too heavy. They
got into kind of that US kids range of golf clubs.
But now they're looking to get out of that. I
(44:40):
see so many young juniors playing with golf clubs that
are just so damn long for them, Jordan, and because
they're so damn long, they're too stiff, and then we
start to see their bodies break down because of the
golf clubs. When we're looking at players, parents especially, how
do we future proof the fit So your son is
(45:01):
trying to get out of kids clubs and get into
more real, regular golf equipment. But they're going to be
growing there. If they're going to keep going, they're probably
going to need another set of golf clubs in the
next two to maybe three years. How do we future
proof golf clubs for juniors so that they can give
(45:25):
the parents a little leeway financially, so that they don't
have to go spend money for a new set of
irons this year and then go, Okay, my son grew,
I gotta go spend another boatload of money on another
set irons.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
So one way would be just when they're moving that
jump from the kids clubs up to the new ones,
make sure you get into a good head because we
can't take that good head and then shift it. Yeah,
so then you're not out you know, the full set
every time. And chefts, I mean you're only gonna need
six or eight of them, so moving across that. But
once we're into a good head, chaft weight is huge
for those kids, Like, don't put them in something too stiff,
(46:00):
don't cut Dad's clubs down because that's just changing the
whole flex point of that shaft and they're gonna have
to alter their swing at the end of the day
to fix that.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, And I think it's something that I've seen more
junior golfers get injured and be on not playing because
they're playing with golf equipment. At one they asked for
for Christmas because Tiger Rory, DJ John Ram they use that.
(46:28):
They don't make a lot of the stuff that the
players on tour using junior sets like that, they don't
make them, so then it's hard to get John Rahm's
driver when you're five to one and you weigh one
hundred and something pounds. Yeah, and you're I mean, I
can't tell you over the course of the year how
(46:49):
many junior golfers I see using forty five inch drivers.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
And at the same point, they don't have enough speed
to play most of those products because they're not creating
the angles to make it spin and launch high enough.
So by going to that, it's yeah, you're just setting
yourself back more trying to play the products that they play.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Lastly, wedge fitting to me, that is again low hanging fruit.
There are a lot of players using wedges where the
bounce configuration. Bob vok At titleist was the first one
to kind of come up with the term of digger
versus slider, but digger being more back in your stance,
(47:32):
hitting more down on it like a bump and roll slider.
Where the tour players are playing closely Moan Augusta type
runoffs into the grain, they're playing the ball more neutral,
so they're sliding the club more on it. Bounce configuration.
If you are going to be someone that's going to
be more of a bump and run back in your stance,
(47:53):
you need more bounce or less.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Bounce, so more bounce there. So what bounce is going
to do is bounce is going to help you exit
the term. So for that player that is very steep,
we need to get out of the turf.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
So that twelve to fourteen range. And then if you
are someone that's a little bit more of a competitive player,
you're gonna want give me a wedge that is from
a bounce standpoint, that is that can do both. That
would be a good kind of starting point for a
player that's not going to be a ton of bounce,
(48:28):
but it's not going to be little What range is
that for you?
Speaker 2 (48:31):
So that one would be anywhere from an eight to
a ten bounce And obviously each manufacturer has a different
soul for that is, so you can kind of have
a little bit of bounce. A good example would be
a vokey like eight M. It's going to have that
little bit of crescent soul where it's going to have bounce,
but give you that versatility to open it up with
the trailing edge relief and really make the most best
of both worlds there.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah, and I and then gapping with wedges, I mean again,
I come in sometimes and I look, I'm like, yeah,
I mean, who fits you for this setup when we're
looking at so give me a range for the So,
if you've got a lobwedge in your bag, lob wedges
are going to be anywhere between.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Fifty eight fifty eight to sixty two sixty two.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Does anybody that is a regular high handicapped golfer need
to be above sixty degrees in the loft?
Speaker 2 (49:25):
No, because that's going to only create a bigger gap
between our pitching wedge in there. Right.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
So then so if you're sixty, what are we looking at,
are you, guys? Because the four kind of degree increments.
So if you're sixty, the sand wedge should be fifty six.
Then the gap wedge should.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Be generally fifty two or fifty right, depending on where
your pitching wedge's at. But a lot of these newer
iron sets, you have to be careful because our pitching
wedges are getting so strong they're going to pack two
more wedges in before you get to the gap wedge.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
So, like most of the new stuff in game improvement,
pitching wedges degree wise are at what.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Now forty three forty four, So from there to get
to sixty, we have to do it within a reasonable
amount of wedges without having you have too many that
you're like, hey, which one do I hit for this?
Speaker 1 (50:17):
And then you have to start saying, okay, well, then
I need to look at taking other clubs out of
my back for the for the regular average goal, for
how many wedges do you think would be beneficial for
them to have in their back. So starting at the
pitching wedge and going from there.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
So generally I would go pitching wedge and then keep
a gap wedge with your iron set that's going to
be anywhere from forty eight to fifty two, and then
follow up with maybe a fifty four to fifty eight.
So really four wedges across the board is going to
be suffice for most If you.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Go fifty, you're keeping within that four degree range.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Yep, fourty five degrees is great.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Turf interaction with wedges. I think that's one of the
main areas that I see that the average golfer just
struggles so much with is the way the wedge is
interacting with the ground. They're already steep on it, they're
already hitting down on it. Talk to me about how
the sole configuration, because every manufacturer now across the board
(51:15):
is going to have a different not only different bounces,
but different soul configurations.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah, so grind options are going to give the different
players versatility to really match that to their angles that
they're creating through the turf. So whether you need trailing
edge relief, heel and tow relief, or center gravity that's
higher or lower. And they do make game improvement wedges
too that a lot of people shy away from. They're like, oh,
I'm not going to get as much spin, but going
(51:40):
to that product, it really fits how you deliver the
golf club is going to make around the green so
much easier.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
So if you could change you only had what So
if a player came to you, and obviously this would
never happen, but if a player came to you and
you watch them hit golf balls and you said, okay, okay,
watching them do everything that they're doing in their golf swing,
I can change the irons, I can change the driver,
(52:08):
I can change the fairway, would make up change the
wedges if they said okay, you'd only change one. What
would be your choice to say, hey, you want to
knock some shots off your game, let's change this.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
I would say the irons are probably going to have
the biggest effect there because most people are playing steel
shafts all those things. So really naturally thought you were
going to say driver.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
I really thought you were going to.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Say no, you'd be surprised, like and I am.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Surprised by that because Mike, now that now that I think,
and here's the other thing, you're going to hit a
hell of a lot more iron shots than you aren't
going to.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
Hit one hundred percent. I mean you figure almost every
hole you're hitting at least one. And then Part three
is even just to launch it high and spin it
enough to you know, have it land and not hit
on the front and roll off the back. That's the
most deceiving part. And how far your distances actually are
for the players. A lot of players will say, hey,
you know, I hit it one hundred and seventy yards
and then we get up onto a part three and
(53:08):
it's one seventy one to carry the water. That ball's
not getting over the water. So really realizing Carrie versus
total is huge for a lot of players.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah, I know, I think that's that's really really great stuff.
If people wanted to come check out truspect, where do
they go?
Speaker 2 (53:23):
So I would go to our website. We are across
the US. There's five locations here in Florida. So if
you ever find yourself here here dot com, respect dot com.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Anybody wants to come get club fitted at the at
my place here at the Floridian. Jordan is here. Jordan,
thanks for talking to us. And uh listen, man, you've
you've helped me a lot for as little as I
play golf. One of the things that you did we tested,
going back to the reason why I use one lengths,
the Cobra one lengths. I mean, we've gone through this,
We've tested everything that all the new stuff from Cobra,
(53:53):
the one lengths for me, they work for me. They're
based off of what my body does, what my body. Listen.
I'd love to use the irons Ricky Fowler uses. I'd
love the black I mean those ones that he came
out with a coup. I mean, I love I get
all the cool stuff, right, I get it all and
it looks cool and I want to use it so bad.
But I've got the new Cobra one length dark speeds
(54:16):
a lot of offset and it helps me hit the golf.
Ball more solid, and listen, my ego is very very small,
you know that. What I just want to hit it
straighter and I just want to hit it further. So
everyone listening, don't be afraid to get club fit.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Thanks Jordan, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
So some really good stuff there from Jordan Patrick from
TRUSPEC and I think we got into a lot of
good talks about a lot of different subjects there. But
get club fit. I mean, if you're using golf clubs
that you've just bought, that you were given, someone gave
you as a gift, they're not helping you. I mean
you have to get I mean, it's like winning the
(54:59):
lot of If someone buys you a set of golf
clubs and just gives them to you, that they're going
to work for you. If you are serious about improving
your game, if you were serious about getting better, if
you're serious about lowering your handicap, one of the easiest
ways to do that is to get equipment that is
fitted for you and your game by someone like Jordan
(55:20):
that has the experience and the knowledge and that can
help you get the right equipment. It really really does
make a massive, massive difference. I want to thank everyone
for listening some of it. Butch comes to you every Wednesday.
We will see you next week.
It's the Son of a Butcher podcast. We come to
you every Wednesday. This week, don't get to a topic
that we haven't really gotten to discuss. Club fitting. True
Spec it's one of the big club fitting outfits here
in the US, and we have their mobile fitting card
here and Jordan Patrick as one of the fitters. He's
helped me with my game and I just think so
(00:27):
many players could benefit from getting fit properly. I think
a lot of players are scared to get fit. They
think it's coln they think it's going to be a
waste of money. But I promise you you make some serious,
serious gains by getting club fit, by understanding what club
fitting is all about. So let's get to it with
Jordan Patrick. My guest today is Jordan Patrick. He works
(00:54):
for True Spec. They do club fitting. Jordan, how many
locations do you guys have across the United States?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Currently twenty four locations and for mobile unis and.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
You're part of and you're part of the mobile team.
It's been really cool to have you guys here on
site here at the learning center at the Floridian. Clubfitting
is something that I think a lot of golfers get
scared of I think a lot of people think that
there's some sort of kind of voodoo, kind of magic
that clubfitters are trying to sell you golf equipment.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
And then there's also golfers that think, listen, I'm not
good enough to take a club fitting. But as you
and I both know, I think every golfer, if you
can get the golf ball airborne, if you're playing golf,
if you're just not a beginner who's just hitting golf
balls on a driving right, but if you're venturing out
on the golf course, club fitting is vital for you
(01:52):
to get done for your game. I see it at
the highest level on tour all the time, right, the
difference between changing a shaft, changing lofts, changing a set makeup.
But for the average regular golfer that's listening, what do
you feel is the single most important thing that club
(02:13):
fitting can do for a player.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So club fitting is not always going to be, Hey,
we're going to gain as much distance as we can.
Everyone wants to gain distance, but you know, just limiting
to one miss is huge. It can take your scores down.
But making it just that way, they're all the same
throughout the set too, and that way you're not getting
hand me downs, but that allows you to kind of
have consistency throughout the set. Whether your tour first time
(02:38):
playing can all make a difference.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I think a lot of golfers when they start out,
they're getting golf equipment from parents, fathers, friends, other people,
and they're getting golf clubs that they have. I mean
it's a little bit like going to a pharmacy and
saying that you've got an ill and they give you
a pill box and you don't actually know what's in it,
(03:03):
and you're just going to take it and you're surprised
that you're not feeling any better.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Definitely. Yeah, So a lot of people they'll get a
set of clubs and where they'll have a couple of
clubs that actually do the same thing. So, you know,
getting something truly fit for you is huge.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
When we look at So let's go through the bag.
I mean, obviously, I think most people are getting club fit.
I would say for drivers more so than they are
for putters, wedges or irons. Drivers seem to be, in
my experience, the thing that people are changing the most
people aren't. I don't see golfers on mask changing their
(03:42):
irons on a regular basis. But putters and drivers seem
to be the quick, interchangeable. They also seem to be
the thing that all the manufacturers seem to come out
with yearly on a regular basis. So every year, all
of the manufacturers that everybody uses, they're all coming out
with new drivers, they're all coming out with new equipment.
(04:04):
So let's start with drivers and work our way down
to irons and then wedges and putters. From a driver standpoint, Jordan,
I know it's it's it's hard to generalize, but you
do this almost you know, three hundred days a year.
What do you see from a fit standpoint that would
(04:24):
be a generalization, but that somebody can that's listening can
learn with what do you see across the board that
players are coming in and you're changing their driver because
of what?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So most players think that just by going down on
the loft, they're going to hit it further. But with
that decrease in loft and most of the loft sleeves
across the manufacturers, going down in the loft, we're also
opening the face. So they just take that wrench, they
crank it down. They'll be like, hey, I'm gonna hit
it further.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So if you've got a ten let's say you've got
a ten and a half degree driver. All the drivers
now are adjusted. They've all got different settings to where
you can adjust what the loft is right, So you've
got the ten to five, you're hitting that kind of
high week spinning shot, you think, or someone that's got
an eight degree driver or a nine degree driver says, hey,
(05:15):
I've got a nine degree and they hit it further.
Just turn the loft down. So how does turning the
loft down make the face go more open?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So by going down a loft, the face is open
about one to one ratio. So for every degree of
loft we take off, the face is opening for that much.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So if you're a slicer of the golf ball and
you're losing distance, which I think most people that are
listening to this podcast, I think if everybody that's listening
raise their hands, the majority of people, their miss is
probably going to be some sort of miss to the right.
I mean, that's the thing that I see giving golf
lessons across the board over the course of a year
(05:52):
with regular golfers, even even lower handicap golfers, the miss
tends to be to the right. Do you see that
as well with the driver?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, more people right than like that.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
High spinny right one. So if that's your miss, you
then knock the loft down to eight degrees because you're
losing distance. So now the face is going to come
in more open, and if you're already swinging left in
the path has already opened. The faces already open the
death move. So how does the average golfer that's losing distance,
(06:22):
that's slicing the golf ball to the right. What are
some of the fixes that you as a club fitter
can do from an equipment standpoint.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
So we can go to something that is definitely lighter
than what they're playing, because most average golfers they play
something that's too heavy and too stiff. So by getting
something that is going to be lighter, softer, it'll allow
them to close the face and make a more natural
move and having to work with something that's just not
for them. But now all the heads are adjustable, so
you have tons of flexibility to make them more upright,
(06:53):
draw biased, move the center gravity back, make them hit
it higher but not actually spin it. Because that's the
highest misconception is that a lot of golfers think just
because I hit it hot, it's gonna spin. But you
can still hit it high and not have it spin
a ton and then it's not affected by the wind.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Right, So give me a life hack for the fifteen
handicapper that's spinning it a lot missing it to the right,
like you said, and again, I see this in golf
lessons all the time. Right across the board. I think
the average golfer has equipment that they fundamentally just don't
(07:30):
they can't use. It's a little bit. I always look
at club fitting and looking at getting a set of
golf cours or getting golf clubs. Like cars like race cars, right,
Racing cars are designed a formula. When race car is
designed to be driven at the speed that maxverstaff and
drives it. If I try and do that, I don't
know how to drive, so I'm going to crash the car.
(07:52):
Golf equipment I see is very similar. I see a
lot of golfers massively influenced by television. I see them
massively influence Jordan by television and by what they hear
on TV. I see that from a distance standpoint. I
know you guys see that as well. Talk to me
about the misconception in how far players hit their drivers
(08:17):
and what I'm always saying to drivers, and I think
you'd agree with this. We need to give you usable
distance distance. It doesn't matter if you hit the golf
ball a long way and it's going offline. We need
you to So what's a life hack for the slicer?
Where do the weights need to be in the head?
All the heads now have interchangeable weight, So you're high,
(08:39):
you're hitting it to the right, it's spinning a lot,
and you're losing distance. So from a head makeup, what
can players that are listening say, Okay, what can I
do with the head of the driver if I'm slicing
the golf ball? Where do I put the weights?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yep, So for that player that's going to slice it,
the first setting would be to get to an upright setting.
So definitely don't want to go down and loft all
those things. But since all the drivers in that middle
category of you know your core models are going to
have that adjustable weight, move that weight into the heel,
let that toe close quicker for a right handed golfer,
and then.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
The weight, so a heavier weight in the heel a
lighter weight out on the toe is going to help
get that club to feel like it's closing. Yes, okay,
And when we're looking at weights at the back of
drivers on the head, that's affecting the CG of where
that is talk to us. We hear that a lot.
(09:33):
I think a lot of people get confused and don't
want to go to club fitting because they hear terms
of things with golf clubs that they don't necessarily understand.
So when we're talking about CG, that's the center of
gravity in the head of the driver, how does that
affect what the ball is doing?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So that's going to affect what the ball does because
so if we have the center gravity further back in
the head, it is going to be more forgiving, it's
going to launch higher. But then if you just take
that same weight and move it to the front, you
are generally going to get more balls being lower spin
for those players just with the same headset up in
the neutral setting all those things just flipping that can
change your spin by you know, anywhere from four to
six hundred RPMs and ad and forgive forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
The Holy Grail and driver fitting obviously is high launch,
low spin. I mean, that's DJ. Last week we were
looking at spin numbers. He's got a new driver in
the bag this year, and where we know he plays
his best when he's long. I mean, and here's the
other thing. I don't think the average golfer listening realizes
how much loft some of the best players in the
(10:34):
world have in their driver. I mean, DJ is over.
I think he's probably right now close to eleven degrees
of loft, which the average golfer would think that DJ
would be playing with something that's kind of around the
eight to nine range. So when you've got that driver
and you're trying to figure it out the cg of
(10:55):
where that is more forgiving to the back. So if
if it has weights where you can put a weight
at the front and a weight at the back, you're
going to want to have the weight or what we
would call back weight that driver. Right. And then DJ,
when he plays his best, spins it kind of in
that eighteen hundred to two thousand range, right, and he's
(11:16):
launching it at ten or eleven. That is very optimal
if you have his type of speed. What we see
a lot of the average golfer do is there the
opposite with the driver, they have high launch or low
launch and massively high spin. So if we can reverse that.
(11:39):
One of the easy ways what I hear you saying
is listen, get that weight more in the heel so
the toe's going to close, and then get that weight
as far back as possible. Get the heaviest weight back.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yep. Definitely at lower speeds, heaviest weight back, and don't
be afraid to use the loft because quite honestly, the
more loft we're adding, the easier it is to close
that face.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Which is the opposite I think of what a lot
of the people listening feel like. They feel like the
way they're going to get that face closed is to
d loft the driver, and that's going to shut it down.
But as soon as they de loft it at address,
it's going to set up open and then it's going
to come in more that way. Talk to me Jordan
about where players are hitting it on the face with
(12:25):
the driver. Again, generalizations, but if you have the generalize,
do you guys see more heel strikes with the average
handicapped golfer or do we see more toe strikes?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So I would say that it's definitely more heel strikes.
But the one that goes I mean better for more
people to know would be that high and low is
more effective than hel in tow. So a lot of
players strike it very very low on the face, which
is going to be the spinniest driver. They all just
want to te it lower, and they figure when they
tee it lower, they're going to hit it lower, but
really they're hitting it low on the face, so it's
(12:56):
spinning more, and then it's going to be higher. So
t at higher, spin it and get more distance.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Again, I when we're watching players and I'm watching and
giving golf lessons to the average golfer, one of the things,
especially with the driver, I'm constantly telling them, T the
golf ball higher. T the golf ball higher, which is
so again, golf is counterintuitive. Everybody that I'm telling to
t the golf ball higher already has the idiot marks
(13:22):
on top of the golf ball. They've already got marks
on the top of their driver anyway, So the disconnect
in their brain is like no, no, no, I'm already
slicing it. I'm already hitting it high, it's already going short.
I've already got a bunch of ballmarks kind of on
the top crown of my driver. Now you want me
(13:43):
to get more loft t it higher? That just doesn't
sound logical.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Why does that work? So that works just because we
are spinning it less and it's going to force them
to hit up on it a little more. And a
lot of golfers they just don't. They don't want to
change their swing. They just want to change into a
new product. But hitting up on it is going to
be the easiest way for them to maximize their distance.
So there comes a point of return where you can
only put so much in and get so much out.
(14:12):
We're not just magically going to gain twenty five yards
by use swinging the same swing and getting a new head.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I think that's another big misconception in driver fitting. Everyone
is looking for the silver bull, I mean the magic bullet, right,
Everyone's looking Marina Alex who I've had on the pod.
Marina plays on the LPGA Tour. Marina's you know, under
five foot five. She doesn't have a ton of speed.
(14:38):
The holy grail for her is getting more distance. But
there aren't unicorns out there. And I think a lot
of golfers think that their equipment is going to be
this unicorn to where they're going to get a new driver,
they're going to hit it thirty yards further. Let's say
you're hitting your driver and you're spinning it at you know,
(14:58):
you're spinning it in kind of the mid three thousands
to four thousands. You're launching it low, it's curving to
the right, and it's carrying you know, two fifteen to
two twenty in the air. How by all of the
things that you've talked about, if we knock the spin off,
(15:19):
so if the spin goes from thirty eight hundred with
a driver to thirty two hundred, what does that mean
in distance?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
So that's gonna you might not necessarily notice it in
the air, but once it hits the ground then it's
going to start running. But adding that spin keeping it
more straight, then it's going to be more consistent on
a golf course. And that's what a lot of players
don't realize is that, hey, hitting you know eight fairways
out of twelve instead of four is huge.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah. And the other thing that if you look at
the best drivers of the golf ball in the world,
then listen, I'm unbelievably lucky to work with two of
them in Brooks and DJ. One of the things that
they do when they're drive, when they hit the drivers,
it's I always think of it like an airplane. The
airplane is taking off, it gets up to altitude, and
(16:08):
then it doesn't keep climbing. The average golfer has that
driver swing to where the ball is getting up in
the air and then it's continuing to rise up. That's
the other thing than when we look at trying to
change it. If we can change the land angle, the
angle of descent to where the ball isn't coming down
(16:29):
like a like a lob wedge, to where it's getting
out and it's coming down flatter, you're going to get
more roll. That's one of the things when I watch
you do driver fittings. I always hear you say, listen,
that's going to roll. That ball is now going to
roll when it hits the ground. Because so many people
with their drivers, they spin it so much and they
hit it so high, it comes down basically soft like
(16:52):
it would be on a really really soft green and
has no roll. And again I've heard you say we
can get you some more distance on the ground. What
does that mean?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
So you know, flattening that descent angle out. It doesn't
matter where you play. The ball is going to carry away.
It carries but allowing it to then roll out once
it's on the ground, versus spinning more to the right.
So you know, lowering that CG moving it more towards
the ford, it might flatten the ball flight out a
little bit, but spin is going to be your biggest factor.
And a lot of people just don't realize that their
(17:23):
height is not from them hitting it high, but they're
actually spinning it high. So then it's now we're losing
on both ends.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
For the regular average golfer, non competitive golfer in that
kind of ten to twenty handicap range. Give us some
numbers from a launch standpoint and from a spin standpoint
that everyone listening could say, Okay, let me see if
I can get on a launch monitor. Go get and
(17:54):
see what would you like to see what would be
optimal playability wise for you launch.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Spin wise, So playability wise launching from you know, anywhere
from twelve to sixteen degrees is plenty high, and then
the lowest spin we can have the better. So anywhere
from twenty two hundred to twenty six hundred is very
playable for the average golfer not swinging it, you know,
much higher than one hundred miles per hour. A lot
of people just don't realize that they are being so
(18:21):
left out on distance, but really what they're putting in,
they can't get much more out of it, so tightening
up that forgiveness, launching it high, hitting fairways is huge.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
We've talked about the club head. More so than the
club head, the biggest miss that I see with people
with their drivers is the shaft. They are playing shafts
that you mentioned it that are too stiff and they're
too heavy. Why is that?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
You know, it's like the old one, Like everyone just
has those clubs that they've played forever, and times have changed.
Everything's becoming so much more light and soft now versus
heavy and stiff. So as we'll play something light and
swing it faster, hit the center of the face more,
and tolerances are just becoming so high from shaft manufacturers.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I'll give you. I haven't told you this story, and
I'm sure Brooks wouldn't mind me. Toning is he played
terrible on Saturday I Live and I watched him and
he was missing fairways the first four or five holes.
He's missing fairways by forty yards. Hen't do that there,
He can't do that there, right, So he basically just
hit three wood the rest of the round. So the
(19:29):
driver that he was using the day before cracked broke,
so he put a new driver in. You're not gonna
believe this. For some reason, he had a sixty gram
shaft in his bag, and his gamer shaft is a
seventy gram shaft. He just put the other head. So
he took the head, the broken head off, put it on,
(19:52):
and he didn't even think and he just grabbed the sixty.
So halfway through the round he realizes she using a
sixty gram shaft versus a seventy gram shaft. Now, for
everybody that's listening, that's basically like choosing a car that's
got You're in a race and they tell you the
car has got three hundred horsepower, and all of a sudden,
you get in and it has two hundred. At his speed,
(20:12):
that ten gram difference is enormous because now the driver
becomes much more unstable at the speed he's swinging.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
That for sure, at his speed, that's a huge change.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I mean, we got done, and the three of us
sat there and we went I think that's a first
for us, and it's not one that you would think
because you're just not thinking right. And it's out of
all the things that driver. I mean, Ricky Elliott always
is counting how many clubs he's got in the bag
Brooks's caddy, and there was one time that Brooks was tested.
(20:48):
This is probably eight years ago. Brooks was testing a
driver and they put it on and they didn't click
it all in place, so we hit it. It kind
of moved. So now it's mandatory for Ricky before every
single all the woods, he's going to go through with
the wrench, and Brooks makes him do it. He says, hey,
check all the woods. So checking the shaft is just
(21:10):
not something you're not going to think that you're going
to have a different shaft in, but it had such
a major effect on it. So my point behind that
is if if ten grams of weight affects the best
player in the world, if you're playing with something that's
got that's too stiff and too heavy, again, if you're
(21:31):
a slicer of the golf ball, the golf club, the
club head has no chance to catch up and close
itself without you having to do something with your hands
for sure.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
I mean not enough people ever think about like letting
the club close.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
So but technology, now, the shaft technology in the last
I think in the last five years, the way that
you know, the auto flex shaft some of these really
really ultra light shaft that have some kick at the bottom.
When we talk about flex points and kick points, we're
always hearing that there are shafts that are kind of
(22:11):
low spin shafts, and then there are shafts that are
going to have a little bit more high spin. What
does that mean in Layman's term for the average golf
if somebody says, hey, that's a low spinning shaft, or
that's a high spinning shaft, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
So basically what that means is a shaft is broken
down into three categories, so like the tip, the middle,
and then the butt. So where that is flexing for
that particular shaft is going to determine more or less
on paper what that's going to be higher, launch, loading, spin,
all those things. So generally a stiffer tip is going
to be lower spinning than something with a softer tip.
(22:48):
But the biggest thing that plays into that too is
for the where you need the flex is going to
be how hard you load the golf club. So somebody
that loads it super hard is not generally going to
have super success with a off their mudded shaft. They're
going to lose awareness of where that club head is.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
The other thing that I don't think people listening with
shaft technology realize some of the best long drivers in
the world are not using stiff shafts. I mean, I
mean Kyle Berkshire's shaft isn't what you would think it
would be. Bryson has talked a lot about that. Bryson
has said, listen, you know when I was doing long drive,
I was trying to get as whippy shafts as I
(23:26):
could get. You wouldn't think that that would be the
case because you would think, at the speed he's trying
to hit the golf ball, he's going to need as
much stability at the bottom. But the long drive guys,
they're trying to get as much load and they put
a lot of force on the handle, so they need
the golf club to be a little bit more flexible
(23:47):
and have that kick at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Definitely, they're looking for that rubber band effect at the bottom,
which is what just letting that club head passed the
hands at impact, and if the tip is too stiff,
that thing is never going to pass.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
When we hear another term that I hear a lot
of people that is out there is are we going
to tip the tour? They're always talking about if if
a player on tour is going to get a driver
shaft made, the builder is the first thing he's going
to say, are we are we? Are we tipping this
or are we not? What does tipping the shaft mean
from a driver standpoint? And what is it? What effect
(24:22):
does it have?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So tipping the driver's shaft is just basically going to
be when they install it, they're going to cut extra
off the tip. So basically, when a manufacturer sells us
a shaft, they say, hey, you want to cut half
an inch off the tip, and then from there it's
we're adding stiffness to that tip section and then the
rest is cut from the butt.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
So the more you cut off the tip at the bottom,
the stiffer.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
The stiffer it's going to get, okay, and then we
can cut off the butt just for the length, but
it's not really changing the profile of the shaft.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Where's a grip is if we take any length. So
let's say someone's got a forty five degree driver and
they want to get a little bit more control, role
go to forty three. You could cut off the top
and it's not really going to change the shaft profile
at the bottom or in the middle on how it.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Works, correct, It's just going to change that length. But
tipping it will change how that shaft affects.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
So obviously all of the bombers, guys like Gary Woodland,
all the guys with big speed they need they want
to tip.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
They want to tip it.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So if they need it stiff at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yep, so they'll tip anywhere from an inch to two
inches on most of those guys drivers.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
But a lot of the amateurs are like, hey, you
know so and so's tipping it. Well, really, you're swinging
fifteen miles per hour slower than he is. You don't
need that shaft to be any stiffer than it is.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So you helped me get a new driver and we
worked on the shaft and one of the shafts you
put me in that new Vanquish.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
From miss Specie.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Okay, that type of shaft. I think everybody's building something
like that in that range. Now, that type of shaft
is doing what.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
So it's allowing the tip section to be softer than
the rest of the shaft, allow players that do early
extend all of those things get the clubhead to come
through the impact zone.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Because that was something that in talking to Dave Phillips,
who've had on the podcast before from the titleist performance,
that they were looking at, you know, when that new
Vanquish came out, they were you know, Jimmy Walker was
crushing that thing.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
He was playing the auto flex.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, he was playing the auto flex and he was
crushing that. He's got a lot of early extension. But
the way that club loads and the way it comes
into the ball, Dave was saying, it was almost like
it was an anti thrust fixer. You could still thrust,
but if you've got a shaft at the bottom thrust,
(26:44):
meaning when we when we when we're setting up to
the golf ball, if you think about where your lower
body is on the downswing, if the pelvis is moving
closer to the ball you're extending, then the upper body
has to go back. So there are guys that do
that Jimmy Walker is one of them. So a little
bit more kick at the bottom again helps square the
(27:04):
club face up at the bottom without you feeling it's
the player like you have to do it so much
with your hands.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, and it doesn't necessarily feel soft in any means,
but allowing that to close is huge for a lot
a lot of golfers to gain distance and ball speed
and at the end of the day, spin it lass.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And I think since the auto flex came out, you
know auto Flex, Korean right technology, you know pink shaft,
you know twelve and what's it like? You got to
you gotta get a new mortgage for your house to
get one of these shafts, right, But what I think
the market and all the manufacturers have gone, okay, let's
take that and let's put a version of that in
(27:42):
our lineup. So I think all the shaft manufacturers are
making something that's going to have a little bit more
kick at the bottom, so that if you are someone
that needs distance, or you are someone that needs that
face to close, that would be what if you're that player? Right,
what model of shafts should be players be looking at
(28:04):
if they want, if they if they're slicing it if
they want a little bit of distance and they want
that bottom part of the shaft at the bottom to
square up. Give me some names that that shafts that
people could look at.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, so it's definitely definitely different for any kind of speed.
But in that average golfer range, you can go auto
flex Missubgie Vanquish, like a C six red from Missubichi Chemical.
There's a lot of good options. I mean, each line
has a good option. And generally, when you look at
a shaft wall, the ones that are colored in red
are generally going to mean that throughout the whole shaft
(28:40):
manufacturing thing. So anything that's red is generally gonna be
a little softer. That tip's gonna close all those things.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Obviously, all the tour players, Brooks plays the Black Blacks
seventy X, I mean, that's as stiff as I mean, yeah,
and it's funny Brooks has got a really stiff driver.
I mean, DJ's use that forever, right, I Mean, that's
just there are players that play with the same shaft
(29:09):
all the time, and then there are players that kind
of move around. I think in DJ's case, it's just
I think it's a comfort thing more than anything else.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
I think it's he's Brooks is the same, right. I
mean you could try and get him out of the
driver shaft that he was working with, right. Brooks will
mess around with lofts and heads and stuff like that,
but the one thing that he will not budge on
is the shaft. And anytime any of the manufacturers that
he'd been with have talked to him about, hey, you know,
(29:43):
maybe we try a little bit different shaft and stuff,
and he always says the same thing. The shaft in
my driver has won me five majors. I'm not changing it, okay,
But for the average golfers it's almost the opposite. Don't
be afraid to go try. So what questions from a
driver fitting? For everyone listening if they are going to
(30:03):
get fit, what question should they be asking you guys
as the fitters. So I think that's something that's massively important.
I've said that before. I gave a pod I think
last year on how to take a golf lesson as
the player what you should be asking and looking for
from the instructor. So for everyone listening, if they are
(30:24):
going to get club fit, what are the questions they
need to be asking the club fitter.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
So one big question is, hey, what is actually achievable
for what I'm putting in is a lot of people
want to get that super extra distance, but really that
speed that they're at, they're maxing it out. So at
that point we need to get forgiveness and be realistic that, hey,
I might not gain all the yards, but hitting something
more in the middle consistently across at the course of
(30:50):
the round is huge. Another one is, hey, what is
a good spin rate for my speed range? And then
a good Another thing that a lot of people don't
think about is set makeups the board is like, just
because hey, go into a three wood, Hey we're going
to hit it further, we might not just because the
five wood launching higher, spinning higher.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah, So that's the next part of this. So and
I think the most forgotten part of club fitting are
from where the irons end and the driver begins. So
whatever your last iron in your bag is and then
where you are in your driver, what is in between there?
I think for everyone listening that is looking to improve
(31:31):
their scores, hybrids, five woods, three woods, to me, that's
a lot of low hanging fruit because I see a
lot of players that their putters are good, the wedges,
the irons, the driver, but what they've kind of got
in between is just garbage and it's not not helping them.
(31:52):
So again average goal for loft wise, and the modern
three woods, you know this, the longer the hitter, the
harder it is to find a three wood, because the
three woods today go way too far, which you would
think would be great. But like DJ says, they give
(32:13):
him sometimes three woods and he's like, that goes as
far as my driver. I have no possible way to
use that because if I do try and hit it
into a par five, I can't hold the green. So
from a three wood standpoint, and again DJ's got a
shit ton of loft on his three wood, but I
see fifteen twenty handicappers have thirteen degrees three woods, and
(32:37):
I'm like, what what are you going to do with this?
You're certainly not going to get in the air. So
from a three wood standpoint, where do you think that
you think most people have two They don't.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Have enough loft in the three where they don't have
enough loft, and a lot of people turn those three
woods down too opening the face. I mean, you got
to be able to launch it. So I mean a
lot of the manufacturers this year did make three hls,
which is gonna be like a sixteen sixteen and a
half degree three wood versus a fifteen. But definitely a
lot of amateur golfers come in with something that's twelve
thirteen degrees and I'm like, that's really your driver.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
So with the three wood with the ball now being
on the ground, not on the tee, so obviously, I
think what everybody needs to realize is there are two
swings in golf. Right there is the driver swing and
there is the iron swing. The iron swing the ball
is on the ground, you need to have an angle
of attack to where the angle of attack is down.
(33:29):
You're hitting down on the golf ball. Hitting down on
it is going to get it up. When we hit
a driver, we put it on a tee. If we
hit down on that.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
It's still gonna go up.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's still gonna go up, but it's going to spin
a lot. So with the driver, you're trying to hit
up on it. And unfortunately, and I know you see this,
I think I see over a year, I see more
golfers have a driver swing with their irons. They don't
take dibbots. They don't get the golf ball in the air,
(34:02):
and then they have an iron swing with their drivers
where they're skying it. They're hitting it off the top
of the driver. With the driver, you're trying to swing up.
With the iron, you're trying to swing down. But three
woods Jordan are so hard for the average golfer to
hit because I think they don't realize the golf balls
on the ground if you try and swing up on it,
(34:24):
it's not on a tee like the driver. Most people
would be surprised that some of the best players in
the world, and you know this, with the three wood,
they take a little bit of a divot because they
are hitting down on it. So if you don't have
enough loft on your three wood and then you're trying
to hit up on it and it's not on a tee,
(34:44):
that is a recipe for top spin. Four hands basically
barely get over the neck, so higher loft in the
three wood.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Don't be afraid to play a seven either. I mean,
if you're going to go up in your three, then
having a three, five and seven there can be some
overlap there.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
So this.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Don't be afraid to skip one.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Dustin Johnson currently has a seven wood and a nine
wood in his back. Why because the irons that are
replacing that he hits them so flat that he can't
hold the green. So the nine wood in the seven
wood allows him to come into greens softer and not
(35:23):
have just low kind of head height bullets iron replacements
handicap ranges to get. I mean, I don't have. The
longest iron I have in my bag is a six iron, right,
Because I've tested you and I have gone through this,
(35:44):
You're like, dude, you hit this hybrid way more consistent
than you hit the five hybrid way more consistent than
you hit the iron. And you've told me, with the
limited amount you have to practice and as little as
you play, you need as much help as possible. So
I have a five iron hybrid, I have a four iron.
Talk to me about hybrids. What handicap range would you
(36:09):
say for a player? Hey, bro, you need you need
to take the ego out of this equation and we
need to start to put more head covers in the
bag for.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
You for sure. So that's that's a fine line for
that breaking point of a lot of players, is hey,
is it a five iron? Is it a six iron,
where our descent angle starts to become below forty degrees,
And that's the biggest deciding factor is once that gets flat,
you're not gonna hold it on a green, so you
might as well just take some loft. Get a hybrid.
Center gravity is lower, it's going to be better out
of the rough, more forgiving hit it higher, land it softer.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Shaft wise, when we start going into hybrids, what do
players need to be looking at with regards to what
they're playing Obviously and their driver, their three, the other
there are other woods, and then what they're playing in
their irons.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
So I would say driver and fairwoods are going to
be pretty consistent between those two. General we're going to
go up and weight in our fairway woods, and then
we're also going to go up and wait in our hybrids.
But our hybrids are going to be more similar to
our iron shafts throughout the bag, just because that is
playing like a three or a four iron for most players.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And again everyone that listens if you are hitting a hybrid,
take a divot. It's basically, if you've got a hybrid
in your bag, you need to play it like it's
an iron. The same type philosophy. You don't need that.
If you've got a hybrid in your in your bag,
you do not need that golf bowl way up in
your stance like you would with your three wood or
(37:32):
your driver. It needs to be very similar to where
it would be for an iron so that you can
hit down on it. Iron technology, game improvement irons. It's
so funny. There was I can't remember the fitter's name,
(37:53):
but he was a longtime fitter out at a TPI
and they had the Chinese national team in right, that
the entire and the best kid on the Chinese national team.
So they're fitting him for irons, and they're going through
an interpreter, right, because the kid doesn't speak English, if
you heard this story. So they're going through an interpreter.
And this kid wants he wants a title. He wants
(38:13):
the Adam Scott titleist blades, right, he wants I mean,
he wants something that looks like it's from nineteen seventy one, right,
because he's the best player, right, And they're trying to
fit him into something that's got a little bit more
of kind of like a cavity back thing like that,
and he's going back and forth, and they're like, this
is the one, and that's through the interpreter back to
him and the kids getting more and more. So finally
(38:36):
the fitter says to the interpreter, He's going to hit
the golf ball. Bet what is the problem? And the kid,
in perfect English says too much offset and the top
line is too long, And the Fitter's like, now you
speak English, because I'm trying to get you into something
that's going to be a little bit more forgiving. So
my point around that story is, I think everybody wants
(38:56):
to play a blade. They want something that does and
have a lot of offset, that doesn't look clunky and big.
What are the advantages versus a forged blade type, you know,
the type of iron that Rory uses, the type of
iron that Scottie Scheffler DJ, I mean Brooks has gone
(39:17):
to that Srixon cavity. But what is the advantage for
everyone listening in game improvement irons? What does offset do?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
So offset is going to allow the player to close
the club face quicker. So now that irons have gotten
so so strong and loft compared to the stuff that
those guys are playing.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
And that's the other thing that everybody lists the best
players in the world want the golf clubs to go
the shortest. They don't need the distance. They're not looking
for rockets. I mean, I've said to Ben Showman at Cobra.
I've had them look at players and I say, hey,
what if we get this iron in his head and
he's like, he'd hit that too far, have no ability
(40:01):
to control the distance. And I'm thinking nobody thinks that
that would be what a problem would be. So, but
the average goal for needs that they need the forgiveness.
Offset means what closure? Right, So the player is looking
down at an iron, if the iron is offset, what
are they going to see.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
They're going to see where the leading edge meets the hozzle.
There's going to be a little bit of an angle there, right.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
So it's ball designed through impact again, same thing we're
talking about with the weights in the driver to get
that toe of the driver to close at the moment
of contacte gapping in irons. What should people be looking
at from their nine iron to their five iron in
(40:51):
an ideal world? What would we like.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
To see In an ideal world, We're going to see
anywhere from twelve to fifteen yards differencing gap between each iron.
So they're I mean, if we're getting to where you're
hitting your seven iron and your nine iron only ten
yards apart, we either got a loft problem or we
just need to change.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
It shaft wise for irons. Again, what are we looking
at for the regular golfer? What are some of the
things that they want to stay away from from an
iron fit shaft wise?
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So a big thing now, like we said that with
all the clubs getting so so strong, you still have
to be able to launch it and spin it. So
a lot of players are now able to play a
lighter shaft. It's higher launching, higher spinning just because those
heads are so strong, But you still have to be
able to hit it high. So just because they're you know,
you're playing a stiff driver shaft, doesn't mean you have
(41:47):
to play a stiff iron shaft. Just the technology in
that graph height, we can make it so light but
so so stable you might as well take the clubhead
speed when you can get it.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, And that's so when players are looking at the
difference between steal and graphite in their irons, what are
the advantages and what are the gains and the wins
that going to graphite could do for a player.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
So by going to graphit, we're able to move where
that shaft is kicking a lot easier. But I think you're.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Talking about with the driver at the bottom with the
tipping conversation, right.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
So by moving that weight, the flexibility to move that
weight with graphite, we can really, you know, fine tune
where it's distributed and where it's going to kick.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Cavity back irons versus more blade irons. Is there a
cutoff for you on handicap range or is it player dependent?
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I would say it's definitely player dependent. But we are
seeing more and more players get away from those traditional blades.
With all the new models that we have, they are
beginning to look better in that player's cavity players distance.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
I do think that all the manufacturers, you know, I've
been with Kroba for a long time now, I love
their quit I've said to the guy, the game improvement
stuff is starting to look more and more like the
player's irons, and that's I think that's huge, right, Yeah,
Because as golfers, again we're massively influenced by television. We
(43:12):
want to be using the stuff that our heroes are using.
But you've just got to be careful in going down
that rabbit hole of having an iron in your bag.
That again, I always say that in golf lessons, we're
trying to improve the miss. You guys in the club
fitting world are trying to do the exact same thing.
(43:36):
You're fitting for the miss, not the good shot. And
that is a big thing that I think is important
for everyone. Everyone thinks they're going to go into a
club fitting and go, Okay, my good shots are going
to get better. You guys are coming to it from
the angle the same angle that I'm coming to it
from a golf lesson. No, no, we're going to try
and make your bad shots better. We're not gonna try
and make your good shots better.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I would say that's the biggest thing that we see
as a player will be in front of us and
they won't accept their true miss, and you and I
both look at it and we say, hey, you're going
to hit it this way every time, but they're like, no,
I really actually miss it to the left. But you
know they're across it with a wide open face and
it's slicing. So it's really just accepting what you do
and making the most of it.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Parents that are listening for kids, golf equipment is expensive
that and I'm sure you get a lot of these
those those juniors that are in the they were playing
golf clubs that were too long and too heavy. They
got into kind of that US kids range of golf clubs.
But now they're looking to get out of that. I
(44:40):
see so many young juniors playing with golf clubs that
are just so damn long for them, Jordan, and because
they're so damn long, they're too stiff, and then we
start to see their bodies break down because of the
golf clubs. When we're looking at players, parents especially, how
do we future proof the fit So your son is
(45:01):
trying to get out of kids clubs and get into
more real, regular golf equipment. But they're going to be
growing there. If they're going to keep going, they're probably
going to need another set of golf clubs in the
next two to maybe three years. How do we future
proof golf clubs for juniors so that they can give
(45:25):
the parents a little leeway financially, so that they don't
have to go spend money for a new set of
irons this year and then go, Okay, my son grew,
I gotta go spend another boatload of money on another
set irons.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
So one way would be just when they're moving that
jump from the kids clubs up to the new ones,
make sure you get into a good head because we
can't take that good head and then shift it. Yeah,
so then you're not out you know, the full set
every time. And chefts, I mean you're only gonna need
six or eight of them, so moving across that. But
once we're into a good head, chaft weight is huge
for those kids, Like, don't put them in something too stiff,
(46:00):
don't cut Dad's clubs down because that's just changing the
whole flex point of that shaft and they're gonna have
to alter their swing at the end of the day
to fix that.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, And I think it's something that I've seen more
junior golfers get injured and be on not playing because
they're playing with golf equipment. At one they asked for
for Christmas because Tiger Rory, DJ John Ram they use that.
(46:28):
They don't make a lot of the stuff that the
players on tour using junior sets like that, they don't
make them, so then it's hard to get John Rahm's
driver when you're five to one and you weigh one
hundred and something pounds. Yeah, and you're I mean, I
can't tell you over the course of the year how
(46:49):
many junior golfers I see using forty five inch drivers.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
And at the same point, they don't have enough speed
to play most of those products because they're not creating
the angles to make it spin and launch high enough.
So by going to that, it's yeah, you're just setting
yourself back more trying to play the products that they play.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Lastly, wedge fitting to me, that is again low hanging fruit.
There are a lot of players using wedges where the
bounce configuration. Bob vok At titleist was the first one
to kind of come up with the term of digger
versus slider, but digger being more back in your stance,
(47:32):
hitting more down on it like a bump and roll slider.
Where the tour players are playing closely Moan Augusta type
runoffs into the grain, they're playing the ball more neutral,
so they're sliding the club more on it. Bounce configuration.
If you are going to be someone that's going to
be more of a bump and run back in your stance,
(47:53):
you need more bounce or less.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Bounce, so more bounce there. So what bounce is going
to do is bounce is going to help you exit
the term. So for that player that is very steep,
we need to get out of the turf.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
So that twelve to fourteen range. And then if you
are someone that's a little bit more of a competitive player,
you're gonna want give me a wedge that is from
a bounce standpoint, that is that can do both. That
would be a good kind of starting point for a
player that's not going to be a ton of bounce,
(48:28):
but it's not going to be little What range is
that for you?
Speaker 2 (48:31):
So that one would be anywhere from an eight to
a ten bounce And obviously each manufacturer has a different
soul for that is, so you can kind of have
a little bit of bounce. A good example would be
a vokey like eight M. It's going to have that
little bit of crescent soul where it's going to have bounce,
but give you that versatility to open it up with
the trailing edge relief and really make the most best
of both worlds there.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah, and I and then gapping with wedges, I mean again,
I come in sometimes and I look, I'm like, yeah,
I mean, who fits you for this setup when we're
looking at so give me a range for the So,
if you've got a lobwedge in your bag, lob wedges
are going to be anywhere between.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Fifty eight fifty eight to sixty two sixty two.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Does anybody that is a regular high handicapped golfer need
to be above sixty degrees in the loft?
Speaker 2 (49:25):
No, because that's going to only create a bigger gap
between our pitching wedge in there. Right.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
So then so if you're sixty, what are we looking at,
are you, guys? Because the four kind of degree increments.
So if you're sixty, the sand wedge should be fifty six.
Then the gap wedge should.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Be generally fifty two or fifty right, depending on where
your pitching wedge's at. But a lot of these newer
iron sets, you have to be careful because our pitching
wedges are getting so strong they're going to pack two
more wedges in before you get to the gap wedge.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
So, like most of the new stuff in game improvement,
pitching wedges degree wise are at what.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Now forty three forty four, So from there to get
to sixty, we have to do it within a reasonable
amount of wedges without having you have too many that
you're like, hey, which one do I hit for this?
Speaker 1 (50:17):
And then you have to start saying, okay, well, then
I need to look at taking other clubs out of
my back for the for the regular average goal, for
how many wedges do you think would be beneficial for
them to have in their back. So starting at the
pitching wedge and going from there.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
So generally I would go pitching wedge and then keep
a gap wedge with your iron set that's going to
be anywhere from forty eight to fifty two, and then
follow up with maybe a fifty four to fifty eight.
So really four wedges across the board is going to
be suffice for most If you.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Go fifty, you're keeping within that four degree range.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Yep, fourty five degrees is great.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Turf interaction with wedges. I think that's one of the
main areas that I see that the average golfer just
struggles so much with is the way the wedge is
interacting with the ground. They're already steep on it, they're
already hitting down on it. Talk to me about how
the sole configuration, because every manufacturer now across the board
(51:15):
is going to have a different not only different bounces,
but different soul configurations.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah, so grind options are going to give the different
players versatility to really match that to their angles that
they're creating through the turf. So whether you need trailing
edge relief, heel and tow relief, or center gravity that's
higher or lower. And they do make game improvement wedges
too that a lot of people shy away from. They're like, oh,
I'm not going to get as much spin, but going
(51:40):
to that product, it really fits how you deliver the
golf club is going to make around the green so
much easier.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
So if you could change you only had what So
if a player came to you, and obviously this would
never happen, but if a player came to you and
you watch them hit golf balls and you said, okay, okay,
watching them do everything that they're doing in their golf swing,
I can change the irons, I can change the driver,
(52:08):
I can change the fairway, would make up change the
wedges if they said okay, you'd only change one. What
would be your choice to say, hey, you want to
knock some shots off your game, let's change this.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
I would say the irons are probably going to have
the biggest effect there because most people are playing steel
shafts all those things. So really naturally thought you were
going to say driver.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
I really thought you were going to.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Say no, you'd be surprised, like and I am.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Surprised by that because Mike, now that now that I think,
and here's the other thing, you're going to hit a
hell of a lot more iron shots than you aren't
going to.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
Hit one hundred percent. I mean you figure almost every
hole you're hitting at least one. And then Part three
is even just to launch it high and spin it
enough to you know, have it land and not hit
on the front and roll off the back. That's the
most deceiving part. And how far your distances actually are
for the players. A lot of players will say, hey,
you know, I hit it one hundred and seventy yards
and then we get up onto a part three and
(53:08):
it's one seventy one to carry the water. That ball's
not getting over the water. So really realizing Carrie versus
total is huge for a lot of players.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah, I know, I think that's that's really really great stuff.
If people wanted to come check out truspect, where do
they go?
Speaker 2 (53:23):
So I would go to our website. We are across
the US. There's five locations here in Florida. So if
you ever find yourself here here dot com, respect dot com.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Anybody wants to come get club fitted at the at
my place here at the Floridian. Jordan is here. Jordan,
thanks for talking to us. And uh listen, man, you've
you've helped me a lot for as little as I
play golf. One of the things that you did we tested,
going back to the reason why I use one lengths,
the Cobra one lengths. I mean, we've gone through this,
We've tested everything that all the new stuff from Cobra,
(53:53):
the one lengths for me, they work for me. They're
based off of what my body does, what my body. Listen.
I'd love to use the irons Ricky Fowler uses. I'd
love the black I mean those ones that he came
out with a coup. I mean, I love I get
all the cool stuff, right, I get it all and
it looks cool and I want to use it so bad.
But I've got the new Cobra one length dark speeds
(54:16):
a lot of offset and it helps me hit the golf.
Ball more solid, and listen, my ego is very very small,
you know that. What I just want to hit it
straighter and I just want to hit it further. So
everyone listening, don't be afraid to get club fit.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Thanks Jordan, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
So some really good stuff there from Jordan Patrick from
TRUSPEC and I think we got into a lot of
good talks about a lot of different subjects there. But
get club fit. I mean, if you're using golf clubs
that you've just bought, that you were given, someone gave
you as a gift, they're not helping you. I mean
you have to get I mean, it's like winning the
(54:59):
lot of If someone buys you a set of golf
clubs and just gives them to you, that they're going
to work for you. If you are serious about improving
your game, if you were serious about getting better, if
you're serious about lowering your handicap, one of the easiest
ways to do that is to get equipment that is
fitted for you and your game by someone like Jordan
(55:20):
that has the experience and the knowledge and that can
help you get the right equipment. It really really does
make a massive, massive difference. I want to thank everyone
for listening some of it. Butch comes to you every Wednesday.
We will see you next week.
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