61: Feeling Our Way to Wholeness: Anxiety

Anxiety can show up for us in many different ways. For some, it is an ever present companion, for others it’s triggered by work, social interactions, or new experiences. It can motivate or debilitate us, but no matter how anxiety presents itself in our lives, it is an unpleasant feeling that can be hard to shake once it takes root.    

Join us in the second to last installment of the Feeling Our Way to Wholeness Series, as Amy and Lauren discuss anxiety!

In this episode we talk about:

• How anxiety presents in the body and the mind. The importance of being in-tune with our anxiety’s manifestations. 
• How anxiety has shown up in Amy and Lauren’s lives.
• The connection between anxiety and perfectionism.
• How befriending our anxiety can help us be with it, learn from it, calm it, and release it. 
• Ways we can validate our children’s anxiety and help them move through it.

Links so you can explore more:

Be sure to check out the rest of the Feeling Our Way to Wholeness Series and check out our Feelings Blueprint: Self-Assesment Tool on our website to help you contextualize your relationship with your feelings and join us on this journey towards wholeness!

Episode Transcript

Amy (00:01):
Okay, hi, Lauren.

Lauren (00:03):
Hi, Amy,

Amy (00:04):
I'm excited to be here with you today to talk about our dear
friend, anxiety.

Lauren (00:12):
I am alive and in the messy middle of life, and ready
to have this conversation.

Amy (00:19):
So I'm so happy to be here with you. And I just want to
start out by grounding ourlisteners, again, in this
interesting four box, this sortof mood meter tool that was
introduced to us in the bookpermission to feel because I
want to anchor our listeners inwhere we are in this kind of

(00:40):
tour of feelings and emotions.
And how really allowingunderstanding becoming aware of
those feelings and emotions isso such an important part of
this journey towards wholeness.
And so listeners, I would inviteyou to listen to imagine in your

(01:02):
mind, and if you've heard this,before, you're reimagining that
we're looking at a graph achart, I guess you would say,
and on the left, sort of the UPDOWN axis is energy. So you can
have high energy or low energyand then across the bottom left
to right is pleasantness. And sothere's four zones that this

(01:27):
chart divides into. And the topleft, which they have made red,
holds anger and passion, whichwe've done an episode on, it
holds fear, it also holdsanxiety. So we've been spending
some time in this red zone.
Beneath that, on the bottom leftof this chart is this Blue Zone,

(01:49):
which includes sadness anddepression. So it's low energy
and low pleasantness. And we didan episode that focused on
sadness, as well as joy. So ifyou journey with me to the top
right, where you have highenergy and high pleasantness
This is the yellow zone. Andthis is where joy, surprise and

(02:10):
excitement which is a kind of acousin, or a sibling of anxiety
that we might talk about today,lives. And so we also have
talked about joy and one of theearlier episodes in the series.
And then finally, you guysthere's a green box or zone in
this chart. And that is lowenergy, but high pleasantness

(02:32):
and that's really where you'recalm content, there's ease a
feeling of ease there. And Iearly on in this series had
admitted that I have someavoidance of that sometimes. And
we're gonna finish this series.
This is the second to the lastepisode in the series, on

(02:53):
feeling our way to wholeness,and we're gonna finish the
series over in the green. Butfor today, we're going to spend
more of our time in red withanxiety. So with that, Lauren,
do you want to get ourconversation started?

Lauren (03:07):
Sure. Yeah. So I have been thinking so much about
anxiety in our preparation forthis episode. And we're where I
want to begin is with what'smost alive for me currently, in
my life, which is the connectionfor me, and I wonder how many

(03:28):
other people will resonate withthis, between anxiety and
perfectionism? I have beennoticing recently that so I'm a
recovering perfectionist. Andwhen I relapse into a stronger,
more unconscious attachment toperfectionism, my anxiety goes

(03:52):
up. And I currently the type ofanxiety I currently experience
most often is this anxiety thatfeels like this heightened
energy that feels unpleasant tome, that is connected to my
desire and attached attachmentto doing things well, doing

(04:17):
them, right. Helping people inthe way that is best for them,
which I'm attached to, becausethen I like to imagine that I'm
such a good helper. And you knowSo recently I have been noticing
that because as I have grown andevolved and explored and

(04:39):
experimented with my own healinggrowth journey and as a healer
and coach who tries to help andguide other people. I noticed
that sometimes I'm really openand connected to what is and
holding like non judgmentalspace. For anything and

(05:01):
everything that is in from thatspace, we can explore and move
towards whatever we want to movetowards. But I don't have
that's, that's when I'm kind offirmly rooted in the green in
that calm content, I'm okay withwhat is I trust myself, I trust
other people to move towardswhat they want to move towards

(05:22):
in the way that is best forthem. And then when I get caught
back up in the Am I doing thisright? Am I did I make a
mistake? Ah, I feel thatanxiety. So that's that's the
way I've been observing it inmyself most recently.

Amy (05:39):
I so relate to that. As you know, I'm also a recovering
perfectionist. And since we'vebeen preparing for this
conversation, I've been reallyaware of where anxiety pops up
in my life. And the place whereit's popping up for me lately,

(06:01):
there's there's multiple places,right, like anxiety is I feel
that as a human. And you'vetaught me this, maybe it's best
to make friends with certainparts of our experience as
humans. Do you think anxiety isjust a friend that comes along
for the ride of the humanjourney?

Lauren (06:23):
So that brings me to the parallel you already mentioned
between anxiety and excitementbeing in that yellow box where
joy is right. So yeah, citementis experienced as high energy,
high pleasantness and anxiety isexperienced as high energy low
pleasantness, they, they feel tome very much related almost to

(06:49):
the point where, like, for meanxiety and excitement can feel
like two sides of the same coin,like they're so connected,
they're kind of one, but alsodifferent versions of that one
thing. And I do personallyrelate to both anxiety and
excitement as like a heightenedenergy experience that is part

(07:13):
of being human and part of beingalive. And sometimes I can
reframe my anxiety as excitementand shift how I'm experiencing
it. And sometimes I can just bewith what is true for me in that
moment, which might be that I'mexperiencing high energy that

(07:35):
feels unpleasant to me in thatmoment. And it is what it is. So
I feel like all of those existsfor me.

Amy (07:45):
I was going to share with you how anxiety is popping up
lately in my life. And I thinkit's also helpful to look at it
over the long term in my lifebecause it really has
transformed and it still popsup. It's still like this friend
that's like in the sometimes inthe passenger seat along with me

(08:06):
on this read. And I was sharingwith you the other day that
right now I am meeting a lot ofnew people. Because we moved the
week that stay at home orderswent into place when COVID
started. And so of course thissummer is the big coming out and

(08:27):
meeting people. And so I ammeeting a lot of new people and
I have I don't want to giveanyone the wrong impression that
I'm talking about social anxietydisorder, which is a real
diagnosis that has really canhave really debilitating impact,

(08:49):
my version of anxiety that'srelated to socializing. It
doesn't prevent me from puttingmyself out there and meeting new
people meeting kindergarten momsand meeting neighbors. And the
irony is that I am a veryextroverted person. And so I
meet these people, I'm soexcited to meet these people.

(09:10):
I'm totally like in my authenticself. And I'm sharing and I'm
asking them questions, becauseyou know, I love to interview
people, but I also just, even inmy life, sometimes I'm just
asking lots of questions. Andthen I get in the car to drive
home. This literally justhappened last weekend after a
birthday party that I took mysix year old to and I'm
replaying every conversation inmy mind. Like oh my gosh, was I

(09:36):
okay, will I be accepted? Was Itoo much? Did I overshare did I
digital, picking it all apartthat perfectionist in me. And a
part of this goes back to myfamily blueprint which I do also
want to talk about because Ithink if we look back in our
lives to where the the sort ofthe the roots of some of these

(09:59):
things tendencies that can bereally helpful in understanding
them and unwinding some of thehold on us. But I very much grew
up as a perfectionist very clearthat if I didn't behave in a
certain way now this was the thesort of understanding I was had
before I was even verbal thatlike, if I did not perform a
certain way, I might be castout, I might not be lovable, I

(10:23):
might be sort of, you know, puton the side of metaphorically
put on the side of the mountainto die, right, like I couldn't
continue. So I have wired intome this anxiety around belonging
that still exist to this day.
Now, I, I also feel I don't knowif I will always have it. I can
accept that. It's quitepossible. I always will. And you

(10:46):
had asked me this question, whenwe were talking preparing for
this in one of our prepconversations, does it prevent
you from doing things? And I waslike, no, it I don't think it
really does. And then Iremembered when I did, so if you
rewind the clock back to my 20s.

(11:08):
Scott, I'm going back there. Andit's like, really heartbreaking.
Like, it's funny how youwouldn't even have necessarily
known how extroverted I wasbecause I was so terrified of
rejection that I reallystruggled to even. I had my very
small circle of friends, butthen I really struggled outside
of that. What if I didn't knowyou and trust you, I would

(11:31):
believe that you wouldn't likeme, and I wouldn't put myself
out to you. And I rememberwanting to throw parties. And I
would, because I was a personwho decided I want to throw a
party. So I'm going to I'm notgoing to let this stop me. But I
would feel panicked about like,what if nobody comes? What if I

(11:52):
send out the invite, and there'sthis like, evidence that
everyone can see that? I'm notokay, that I'm being cast out
that, like, you know, there wasthere's this threat of throwing
a party. That that that wasexistential to me, and I would

(12:12):
do it anyways. But I definitelyfelt that this anxiety about
social situations and mydesperate need for acceptance
changed my behavior in really,in ways that it no longer has a
hold on me.

Lauren (12:31):
Yeah, that is so I think that is so human. And it really,
um, you know, multiple thoughtsare coming to my mind, Rene
browns, work around belongingand being wired, for connection.
And yeah, you know, my recentinterview with Alfie Cohn and

(12:55):
his work around onconditionality. Oh my goodness,
what's what's coming alive? Forme the most in what you were
saying is this epidemic ofchildren being raised in ways
that co creates conditionalacceptance, the feeling of

(13:16):
conditional acceptance, the fearthat comes with conditional
acceptance, because what humanchildren ideally need to thrive
is to feel unconditionally lovedand accepted for who they are,
and guided and helped andsupported. And, you know, there

(13:38):
are ways for parents andteachers and caregivers to
unconditionally love and valuechildren for exactly who they
are, celebrate it, support it,welcome it, and guide and teach
and do the things that webelieve we need to do. And

(13:59):
there's this huge epidemic ofadults who were conditionally
parented and taught, who repeatthat and conditionally parent
and teach. And, in my opinion,and not just my opinion, but
Alfie Cohen's work, Rene browntalks about this, she talks
about teachers using shame inschool because it works and

(14:22):
having trouble giving up shamingtactics because they
successfully change and controlbehaviors in the moment, but the
long term price that we pay whenwe shame children is not worth
paying, in my opinion. And so,you know, it just brings me back
to my life's work and how anyoneI get to know intimately has

(14:48):
their version of what you justdescribed. The what if, what if
I'm not accepted? What if I'mnot loved? What if I don't
belong? What if I'm reallyrejected. And I feel like that
What if comes from? What if Idon't meet the conditions? Yeah.
And what if I don't even knowwhat those conditions are?

(15:09):
Because Yeah, times when we werechildren, the the conditions
weren't made explicitly clear tous until we had failed to meet
them. And then there wereconsequences. And then there was
rejection. And then there wasshaming. And then there was even
by the most well intentionedparents who loved us in the

(15:31):
sense that they believed theywere loving us. And they felt
like they loved us. And theyloved us as best that they
could. And they were repeatingthese conditional patterns. And
so and that anxiety, becausewhen I think about the anxiety,
I feel, when I'm afraid, I'm notmeeting the conditions. I'm not
even sure what the conditionsare. Or maybe I think I know

(15:53):
what they are, and I'm afraidI'm not going to meet them. And
I compare that with therelationships I have now, in
which I feel like I can fullylean into trusting that I am
going to be loved and acceptedand welcomed and worked with no

(16:14):
matter what, there's just alevel of calm that like my body
relaxes.

Amy (16:21):
Yeah. And because you and I both so much love the how I do
want to talk a little bit aboutthe from two, because I am
transformed from that human thatwas nearly and in many cases,
paralyzed by that. And I now dothrow parties and have learned

(16:48):
from my husband who doesn't haveany of this baggage. Like, he
just is like, well, we're justgonna throw a party. And we'll
just invite everybody who. So bythe way, I've been married for
seven years. So even in the lastseven years, I've had a huge
transformation. Even still, nowtoday, I'm transforming. And I
want to share one of the AHA isthat you gave me last time that

(17:10):
I can pass on to our listeners.
But I am now in a place where Ijust invite whoever can come.
Like, I invite whoever I like,and then whoever comes comes and
it's great. And I don't feelfeelings about me. When people
say they when people decline.
And it used to be very like ohmy gosh, this must be about me.

(17:32):
And I had a whole story aboutit. And also still to this day I
when I talk with people who arenew and, and share things that
are important to me. And one ofthe tricky parts about my life
experience now is that I have alot of stories that involve

(17:53):
concepts like manifestation, orit's, um, sometimes I have a
sort of a spiritual vantagepoint on things that weaves
itself into my total lifeexperience that then I wonder,
well, should I edit that? And ifI do edit that, am I being less
authentic? And how do I? So Ijust asked people Oh, what you
don't? Do you know what that is,and and then I try to tell my

(18:16):
stories in ways that thatconnect with whatever they're,
wherever they're coming from,and then I beat myself up
afterwards. Totally still. Andso what you gave me last time,
we talked about this, which issuch a beautiful reminder is
from the work of Rene Brown. Andso what I have embraced now is

(18:36):
some I know that I had socialanxiety, I know I still have
some social anxiety, not thedisorder version, but my own,
maybe lower level version. But Ialso am embracing that I am
sometimes socially awkward, likeBernie says, be awkward, brave,
and kind. And I am now afterthat conversation with you. And

(19:01):
I'm sharing this because thiswas also such a beautiful aha
for me a week ago, and you saidthis, and I have heard Renee say
this so many times, but itlanded with me in that moment.
As a choice, I can choose to beawkward, because when I choose
awkward, basically what I'mdoing is I'm choosing the
discomfort of being authenticand taking a risk. And so for me

(19:27):
now awkward isn't a selfcriticism. It's it's a space
that I get to play in. So thankyou for that.

Lauren (19:35):
Yeah, I love it. I love that so much. I'm also committed
to being awkward. So as part ofmy practice of authenticity and
recovering perfectionism,because that the false fly of
perfectionism says Don't beawkward. Why not?

Amy (19:56):
Yeah.

Lauren (19:58):
Right. Yeah. And so I love it. I just love that the
bravery and I love how you and Ihave co created a space with
each other in which we can bedifferent and share our
different ways of seeing things.
And we share things we've beentalking recently about Carolyn
meses, book, sacred contracts,and she talks about, you know,

(20:19):
different ways to interact withthe idea that, like some people
believe literally that our soulschose a contract before they
incarnated. And then there thatyour soul's purpose is to live
out this contract, and shebeautifully articulate that

(20:42):
idea. And then she goes on tosay in the book, and some people
choose to interact with thisidea, metaphorically, because
that's how it serves them. And Iwas like, Oh, she knows both.
Yeah, it feels more quote, trueand alive when I give myself
permission to interact with itmetaphorically. Because when I

(21:05):
start interacting with an idealike that, as if it's literally
true, I get stuck. And I'msaying, but really, but wait,
but but, but if I gometaphorically, how could this
serve me, I used to teach highschool English. And, you know,
what I loved about stories,especially fiction stories, was
what they could offer us inteaching us about ourselves

(21:29):
based on how we interacted withthose stories. Yeah, I love
approaching things that way. Andfor other people, what's most
true and most alive for them isthis resonance with these
literal truths. And I honorthat, and when, when we can
trust when we have that kind oflevel of trust with another

(21:49):
person or a community where weknow we can show up
authentically, Rene brown alsobeautifully talks about how
trying to like censoringourselves so that we'll be
accepted for less than thefullness of who we are, is
fitting in. Yeah, being our fulltrue selves and trusting that we
belong, because belongingdoesn't mean sameness. That's

(22:11):
when it's magical, that's whenwe're authentically connected,
and we can all be who we are.
And that's those are the typesof interactions that I am
seeking more and more topractice co creating. And it
begins with my own self. And soyou know, when I'm feeling

(22:32):
disconnected from myself andtriggered and in fear and
anxious and worried and am Iliving up to expectations and
all of these things, I can youeven within my own self, like
listen to the different parts ofme, I love Susie Lula's
suggestion that our emotions aremessengers, they all have

(22:53):
messages information for us. Andso when I feel my heart rate go
up, when I feel the tension inmy chest when I feel the
physical sensations that Iassociate with anxiety, and then
I associate them with lowpleasantness. If I pause and get
curious and invite likebefriend, like you were saying

(23:16):
earlier, befriend that sensationinside me and ask it what it's
here to tell me, depending onwhat it says. Sometimes I miss
interpret excitement as anxiety,because I'm not paying enough
attention inside myself. Youknow, I start feeling the
sensations because the physicalsensations feel similar to me.

(23:38):
And if I pause and really checkin sometimes I'll discover Oh,
actually, I'm excited. Sometimesit's kind of a mix of the two,
you know, so yeah, we'll talkabout being anxious and excited
at the same time. So yeah, Ifeel that way sometimes, too.

(23:59):
But

Amy (23:59):
I love that and that's an area where to what you've
pointed to is the other one ofthe other big house that I
wanted to highlight, which issimply aware, being aware of the
feeling. And for you,oftentimes, you just have such a
masterful awareness of thephysical sensation. I oftentimes

(24:21):
recognize the thought loop thethought pattern, and I go, Oh,
there you are, again, there'sthat thought of, I don't fit in
I'm not good enough. They'regonna cast me out. They don't
like me What if they don't likeme? And, and I'm working on
building that facility that youhave of actually like feeling
the feeling in my body. And Iwanted in this episode to point

(24:43):
to back to a tool that we'veintroduced before in this
series, which you guys is onsoul, pet parenting, calm, and
it's the feelings blueprint, wehave a self assessment, and it's
interesting, you've kind ofalready answered This question
Lauren, the first area that welook at, we invite people to

(25:04):
take a moment and ask yourself,what does it feel like in my
body? When I experience? In thiscase, anxiety fill in the blank?
And my answer to that questionwas normal.

Lauren (25:22):
Week, that's how it

Amy (25:24):
Yeah, like this is normal.
And one of the other beautifulawarenesses that you gave me, I
wanted to share this also withour listeners, much earlier in
this series, we were talking andpreparing either for a
conversation about fear orconversation about anger. And
you pointed out to me somethingthat I have never known about

(25:44):
myself before. And I'm sharingthis with our listeners, because
I wonder if this is true foryou.

Lauren (25:51):
I

Amy (25:52):
was never diagnosed with anxiety. I never, I had these,
like coping mechanisms ofnormalizing everything and
saying everything was okay. So Iwould never even have looked
there. I would have just beenlike, No, I'm fine. I'm fine.
I'm fine. And you pointed out tome that based on the stories I
was sharing from my childhood,which do you remember anything

(26:14):
about what I was sharing in thatmoment where you said, what the
takeaway that you had was thatyou were guessing, I may have
been living with a constant lowlevel of anxiety through my
life?

Lauren (26:29):
Yeah, I remember having that conversation. And I
remember you sharing along thelines of things you were sharing
earlier in this conversation,the, you know, need to be
perfect. And the the pressure toperform more live up to
expectations, what are otherpeople going to think those
types of things, and you wereexploring kind of, you know,

(26:52):
ways in which your interactionswith your parents and childhood,
maybe contributed to thosefeelings around needing to, you
know, perform a certain way orbe a certain way. And I at one
moment I said to you, you know,I can imagine that causing kind
of a constant low grade anxietylike this worry around? Am I

(27:13):
meeting the expectations? Am Idoing this? Am I gonna be
accepted? Am I you know, justthat, yeah, how that might feel
or cause that. And it wassomething along those lines.

Amy (27:25):
Yeah. And instantly, in that moment, I went from a
person who my literal story thatI had told you was now anxiety
has never really been a problemfor me, let's talk about your
generalized anxiety. To Oh, myGod, it's normal, my whole
existence, because anxiety comesfrom fear. And perfectionism is

(27:52):
the coping or so the story thatcame out of that fear of like,
okay, I can take control of thefear by being this human.
That's, that's, you know,infallible, that delivers on
everything, like, I will never,I will never be cast out because
I will be the perfect one. Andthen, of course, it's the

(28:13):
unachievable. And so in thatmoment, I realized, and I
started to look at my life andrealize that anxiety was just my
normal setting for many, manyyears. I don't think it is
anymore, because I've unwoundsome of those, so many of those
patterns, and it's still fullycomes up. And now I can

(28:35):
recognize those thoughts. Andbecause I can recognize them, I
can have a differentconversation in my mind. But
yeah, I I wanted to just share alittle bit about what that was
like, because there's dimensionsof that, that I think, are also
important to explore and what myconstant low level of anxiety

(28:59):
looked like. So anotherdimension of my life, where this
really came up was work. My selfworth and identity were
completely, completely collapsedwith my work. And I worked in
corporate America, I was inmarketing at a big beer company
based here in Colorado, and Iwould work tirelessly, I wanted

(29:25):
to always over deliver,everything needed to be perfect.
And I would give, give, give, towork to make sure that was
perfect. Before I would takecare of myself, and I remember
looking around the office,working these long hours and
thinking like, gosh, there'scertain other people that don't
feel compelled to work as hardas I do. Like, they just seems

(29:48):
so relaxed and like they'redoing good work, but I couldn't
make the connection with howthey could do it in that way.
Cuz To me, the stress wasinherent to doing a good job and
so far What that pattern alsolooked like, was anxiety, this
constant low grade anxiety thatI didn't even recognize I had,

(30:08):
but I was always afraid offailing at work, and then
numbing behaviors. So I wouldcome home from work and have a
couple of glasses of wine andturn on the TV. And some of that
was also there was a period oftime where I lived by myself,
I'm actually not convinced thatI, as a human am supposed to
ever have, or in the future,live by myself, I think I need a

(30:32):
tribe or a village. So the TVwas partly to assuage
loneliness, but also, I had somereally strong numbing behaviors.
And when I look at my blueprint,and this is another part of the
the two page thing that we'veput together for our listeners,
if they want to go on thisjourney with us as well, is that

(30:52):
my mom really embodied stress asa way of life. And my dad really
embodied numbness, let's notfeel it, let's numb and I had
all of it happening. And my lifewas this sort of vacillating
between anxiety and numbness.
And I'm sure there was also athird state or other states of
being, but a lot of my life wasconsumed between anxiety and

(31:15):
numbness, a lot of my wakinghours, and probably some of my
dreaming hours too.

Lauren (31:23):
Well, and I think it's so significant to point out that
that was the case in the pastfor you. And it wasn't something
you were fully consciously awareof either like it was your
normal, it was kind of like inthe background, or in even in
the foreground, but you weren'tquestioning it, you weren't
interacting with it, you didn'thave an intentional conscious

(31:44):
relationship with what was truefor you in the moment. And I
bring that up, because I want totalk about, you know, the title
of this series, feeling our wayto wholeness. And what that
means to me. Because my storyhas similarities to your story,

(32:07):
my parents stories, you know, welive in a culture that contains
a lot of buisiness asworthiness, stress and struggle
as science that you're doing itright. And if you're not
stressed, and you're notstruggling, what's wrong with
you? Are you lazy? What are youdoing, you know, and then we're,
and there's that conditionalitythere that I'm so paying

(32:31):
attention to now that it waslike the water I was swimming
in. And I didn't even know I wasin water, and I wasn't getting
it. And now I see thisconditionality everywhere and
the effects of it. And you know,if like, there are all these
false stories and falsebinaries, if you're a good

(32:56):
person, you will be busy andstressed and achieving lots of
things. And if you're not, thenyou're bad, you know, and then
and we're going Oh, okay, well,if that's if those are the hoops
I have to jump through to fit into feel worthy to be a, quote,
good person, then, you know,some of us get addicted to
jumping through those hoops. Andit's insatiable. Because we're

(33:19):
constantly trying to provesomething that can't be proven
or disproven. That, you know,once we, part of my process, I'm
still on this path of seeking tofeel my way to wholeness. And as
I intentionally engage with thisprocess, when I tap into what I

(33:46):
believe to be the deeper truth,which is that our worthiness is
inherent and non negotiable,that we're all you know, already
deserving of unconditional loveand acceptance, that, like the
natural way of the earth, isthat's, that represents it for

(34:06):
me. So I have a groundingpractice that I will now use to,
sometimes to come anxiety, whereI imagine and I metaphorically,
because I like to engage withthings, these things
metaphorically, but Imetaphorically like ground
myself into the earth and feelthe unconditional love and

(34:29):
acceptance and support that Iimagine feeling from the earth
and I rest in that and I allowit to remind me that I can't
lose something that I can'tearn. It just is. And so that
feels different to me than myprevious Mo, which was also

(34:53):
handed to me and still exists ina lot of places which is you
have to earn it, you better beearning it. Are you earning it
Enough. And yeah, that that I'mlike stressed just thinking
about that. Am I earning itenough? I don't know, am I
better try harder, you know?
Yeah.

Amy (35:11):
I so relate to that. And it, you know, I'm still in it
too, I'm learning how to feel myfeelings. I can recognize my
thoughts with a lot morefacility than I can feel the
feelings in my body. And itstill pops up that like hustling
for my worth. And these storiesthat I think are largely

(35:36):
cultural, I love that youbrought up the cultural context
that we live in. Because I havethis thing sometimes about
productivity. Like, I want torelax and play because it's the
summer so I'm working a lot lessright now, y'all because the sun
is out. And so I've reallyscaled back on certain projects

(35:56):
that I'm working on. And I'mlike, okay, the fall, the fall,
we're gonna do it in the fall, Ihave this agreement with myself.
And then that voice comes up oflike, but you're not being
productive. And if you don'thave something to show for
yourself, at the end of the day,who are you? Are you worthy? Is
this enough is fun and enjoymentand playing with your kids

(36:17):
enough?

Lauren (36:18):
Right? Absolutely. I totally hear you. And it can be
challenging to carve out timeand protect time, for
relaxation, for enjoyment forpresence. Because it's so
tempting to think, well, I haveso many things I want and or
need to accomplish, andaccomplishing things is better

(36:41):
than not accomplishing things.
And sometimes I'll offer peoplethe option to reframe things,
and to try to add resting theirnervous system as a really
productive, valuable thing theycan do. And so yeah, are so
productively resting yournervous system for optimal
health.
Good job.
Yeah, you're

Amy (37:01):
turning to be into a To Do

Lauren (37:04):
I like to be to do right. If that helps you if that
works. Yeah, right. I'll talk tomyself that way, sometimes, but
I love how you're alsohighlighting the mind and the
body I. So I have the mindstories, I'll notice looping
thoughts. My mind is veryactive. And has traditionally

(37:31):
been very worried about whetherI was being a good enough person
and achieving enough and so onand so forth. And so my mind
kind of felt it felt for a verylong time. And it still feels
this way sometimes, like my mindhad, if my mind had its own job
description that it had kind ofchosen for itself, it was, you
know, to kind of try to keepLauren from effing up too much.

(37:52):
And it was working overtime, youknow, yeah, that project. And
then when I started moreintentionally interacting with
my body, I'm so appreciative ofthe somatic work that I have
been introduced to, and I've hadthe opportunity to participate

(38:16):
in and learn from because thathas been huge for me, it's for
me, it is felt like a returninghome to my body, and allowing
myself to be present with what Iwas feeling in my body and to
feel it and to listen to it andto hold space for it, which
wasn't my way of being. Before Iwould have described myself

(38:42):
before as living entirely in mymind that I thought I was my
mind and my mind was me. And Iwasn't aware of how my mind
affects my body, and my bodyaffects my mind. So for me, now,
I can sometimes feel andconsciously experience. Like I

(39:03):
noticed the thought loop. Andthen I feel the sensations in my
body. And sometimes I'm notsure, you know, it's like a
chicken or the egg kind ofsituation, because the mind loop
thoughts can cause or trigger orinfluence sensations in the
body, the sensations in the bodycan cause or trigger the, you

(39:28):
know, minds loop. I think, Ithink in the somatic work that
I've done, I think thesuggestion is that the body is
more often the origin point, andthat the mind is trying to make
sense of the body and explainwhat's happening in the body,
but also the mind. But I think Ialso it's been suggested to me

(39:50):
that the mind thoughts can thencause or recreate those
sensations. There's a back andforth. I don't know I'm going
back to that. Yeah,

Amy (39:57):
well and I love that you say chicken and egg because I've
had This exact conversation withsomeone who comes from a more
mind centered orientation. Andthey said the mind, and then you
talk to somatic and they mightsay the body?

Lauren (40:12):
Maybe, maybe not, I could be misquoting them.

Amy (40:15):
And you, Lauren so beautifully always inhabit the
both. And so let's just say,yeah, both. And

Lauren (40:23):
I don't know, I don't know if one is more the origin
than the other. And maybe it'sit's a mystery and both and and
they both are Yes, yes. Yeah.
Yeah.

Amy (40:35):
I'm wondering. Sorry, let's hit the pause button for a
second, because I actuallywanted to take the conversation.
Olivia, edit this out. Did youhave something you wanted to
add, though, to that? What wewere just talking about? The
other

Lauren (40:51):
thing I would say about the mind body connection, I'll
breeze because I think Oliviatold me take a breath. The other
thing I would add to the mindbody connection question is just
the benefits I've experienced ofthe awareness of the
interaction. And so whether it'sor originating, in my mind, in

(41:12):
that moment, or in my body, inthat moment, being aware of the
interplay between them, hasopened up access for me to
things like noticing My heart'sracing, my chest is tightening
up, I can sometimes I noticed mybody first. And I listen to
that, and I go, Okay, what, whatelse? What am I thinking? What

(41:35):
are their thought loops that areconnected to this? And then I
can notice those and then I cankind of process it or in the
other direction to the mindsloop? And then I go, what's
happening in my body? Okay, howdo I, how do I interpret this?
Or how do I make sense of this?
What's true for me in thismoment, what's from the past,
you know, what is beingreplayed? By my mind, and or my

(41:56):
body? That's from the past, butit's not actually present in
this current moment, and justall kinds of things like that.

Amy (42:07):
I had a couple of questions for you on this topic, if any,
firstly, if any of our listenersare interested in exploring more
of this somatic work. Do youhave any suggestions of where to
begin?

Lauren (42:19):
That is a great question, Peter. I don't know if
it's Levine, or LA vine has somegreat books. And he is sometimes
I think talked about as one ofthe founding fathers of somatic
therapy. I've read a couple ofhis books, and I'm struggling to
come up with the titles of themright now. But perhaps we could

(42:42):
put in the shuttling Yeah, tosome of his books that talk
about that mind body connectionand a somatic approach to
healing and to re connecting toour authenticity. I love that.

Amy (43:01):
And I also wondered if you could talk about this particular
dimension of anxiety, Isometimes relate to things like
a problem that I need to solve.
So I go, I go, oh, anxiety,there you are, old friend. And I
see you I see the thought loop,I feel the feeling. Now I want
you to dissolve you anddisappear you and that you have

(43:23):
taught me is not always the mostproductive orientation to have.
So could you talk a little bitabout accepting befriending like
how we think about anxiety asmaybe there's the the message
that it has for us, but alsojust the ability to be in it and

(43:44):
accept it?

Lauren (43:48):
Yeah, absolutely. And also, I'll just speak about
myself when so my story includesunconscious, constant anxiety,
and then a diagnosis withgeneralized anxiety disorder and
an awakening to my own anxiety,and a kind of wrestling with

(44:14):
slash perhaps I could sayexploration of how to respond to
my anxiety and there definitelywere times along my journey
where I felt like the messagewas anxiety is bad, get rid of
it. And when I tried to get ridof my bad anxiety, that more

(44:40):
often resulted in more anxietyfor me rather than less. And so
then I I came across the work ofMatt Licata, who I really deeply
appreciate, and some of his workreally deeply resonated with me.
He talks about befriendingourselves, befriending all the

(45:05):
parts of ourselves all theexpressions of ourselves,
welcoming them, I think he's abig fan of Rumi and I think Rumi
has the poem called theguesthouse. Where whatever
feelings arrive in our body,which is the metaphorical house,
in the poem, we welcome them,like, we would welcome a guest.

(45:26):
And we learn about them, and webefriend them. And that has made
a huge difference. For me, Istill struggle with this
attachment to wanting to knowthe right thing to do, and to
then do that thing all the time.
And another big part of mypersonal transformation that is

(45:48):
still in progress is a desirefor access to all the options,
because I could take any ideaand falsely hierarchy,
hierarchical eyes it and thenoppress myself with it. So to
kind of give an example of whatI mean by that, first, I thought

(46:14):
anxiety was bad. And the goalwas to get rid of it. And I
thought success was measured byhow often I successfully stopped
or got rid of or eradicated orcalmed, you could say, but it
felt more like war, like, thatwasn't very calming, right? So
then I kind of shifted to thisacceptance practice, this

(46:36):
befriending practice, but thathas a shadow side to everything,
in my experience, has a lightside and a dark side or
conscious side and anunconscious shadow side. And the
unconscious shadow ofbefriending, even for me was the
risk of like, wallowing infeelings that I didn't really

(47:03):
want to keep wallowing, like ifI start thinking, Oh, if I
accept it, if I welcome it, thenI'm going to do the opposite of
trying to make it go away, I'mgoing to cling to it and stay
with it forever. Look how sad Ican be and for how long, like
I'm doing the work, you know.

(47:26):
And then it was like, Wait asecond. That's not quite it,
either. But I think it was areally important part of my
personal journey to go to movethrough all those steps. Get out
of here, offline anxiety, no,I'm anxious. I'm so anxious.
Like, my hand is shaking. I'm soanxious. I'm anxious all the
time. Because we're friends now.
We're friends. And theneventually, I started. So my

(47:48):
current practice that I like toattempt, but it's the struggle
is to just be in the presentmoment and ask myself, you know,
what do I want to choose? Inthis moment, I, I now have
access to reliable ways to calmmy anxiety, they don't work all
the time, it depends on theanxiety and what the message

(48:10):
underneath it is. And so manyfactors. I can choose now to I
want to calm it, release it, bewith it, ask it questions, allow
it to intensify to see what itsays. But I don't feel like I'm
gonna be I don't know, mergedwith it forever. And I also
don't feel the need to fertilizeit like those two, like, I need

(48:32):
to kill you and get you out ofhere. Never mind. We are one now
we are one forever, you know,and now it's like, okay, I can
create some space. But there'sno better choice objectively,
all the time for me anymore,even though part of me still
wants that. Because then I canbe the perfect and do the right
thing every time. You know. Soyeah, that's,

Amy (48:56):
yeah, I just love how we all can benefit and learn from
your human experience and howclear and articulate and vivid
you are in sharing it. It hashelped me so much. And I hope
it's also helping our listeners.
And I wonder if we might shiftin this conversation to any
thoughts or experience you havewith anxiety related to our

(49:20):
children who might be dealingwith anxiety?

Lauren (49:26):
Yes. So and I love So Dr. shefali, who you and I were
both trained by. One of thethings she says that I really
appreciate, is, as parents,sometimes it's helpful for us to
try to embody the antidote forour children. And that can be a

(49:48):
conscious choice. And so whatI'm going to relate that to is
if when I'll say when mychildren both experience
anxiety, and this is somethingwe talk about as a family and
when my children experienceanxiety, if I start getting
anxious about their anxiety, ifI start worrying if I worry with
them, I am. I am not embodyingthe antidote. Whereas if my

(50:14):
children are anxious, and Iintentionally in those moments,
use my self regulation, calmingstrategies to be a calm,
centered, grounded, adult who ispresent to and welcoming of my
children as they are in thatmoment, that can have like a
beneficial, grounding, calmingeffect on my children, not that

(50:40):
my goal is to change them. Butparadoxically, when you welcome
when you are calm, and youwelcome, and you're not seeking
to change something for theother, sometimes you can co
create an opportunity or anenvironment in which they are
able to relax a little bit andshift a little bit and that can

(51:02):
benefit them. So that's probablythe number one thing I talk
about with parents, when theirchildren are experiencing
anxiety. And they are seeking toexplore how best to, you know,
help their children or guidetheir children or be present

(51:23):
with because I mean, ourconscious parenting program is
all about being with what is andaccepting it loving it,
welcoming it guiding Sure, youknow, it's not, I mean, again,
we could talk about these falsebinaries, where some people hear
me say, welcome your child'sanxiety, be with it, allow it

(51:45):
and they think, oh, so I'm justgoing to do nothing, you know,
and just do nothing to helpthem. I'm trying to help them.
I'm trying to help them. Butsometimes that help fix I've
been, I've been so guilty ofthis with my children, because
when my children are struggling,and I want to fix it, we
escalate each other, itintensifies. When my children

(52:06):
are struggling, and I take adeep breath, and I go, Oh, of
course, you're struggling,sweetheart, you're human, you're
alive. Tell me more. What's thestruggle? What's going on? How
do you feel about it? What doyou want to do about it? And if
they're like, I don't know, Mom,I don't want to you know, what,
what should I do about it? ThenI'll say, Well, I can outline
some options for you tell mewhat you think of those, you
know, but if they're like, if Ijust ask them? Well, okay, yeah,

(52:29):
that's how you're feeling. Tellme more? What do you want to do
about it? Sometimes they solvetheir own problems, quote, you
know, like you were sayingearlier, seeing things as
problems to solve. Peoplesolving their own problems is
the best, it's better thananyone else trying to solve them
for them. And sometimes we canuse space for that and help kind
of facilitate that by being agrounded, anchored, calming

(52:52):
presence, who welcomes theinherent struggle of lightness?

Amy (52:58):
Have you had conversations with them are taught them about
feeling anxiety and their body?

Lauren (53:05):
Yes, we have. We've talked about that. And, you
know, we've talked about themind stories that can happen and
how our mind wants to make senseof things. We've talked about
the physical sensations in ourbodies, I've invited them to
check in and describe what'shappening in their body when

(53:27):
they're experiencing differentthings. And, you know, there's
some uniqueness to everyone inmy family for which physical
sensations tend to arise. Andthen there's some commonalities
among us as well. And just give,you know, my goal with my
children is to give them accessto as much as I can. So like

(53:49):
access to a conscious,intentional relationship with
their body access to aconscious, intentional
relationship with their mind.
Those things feel helpful to me,and so I offer them to my
children. Sometimes my childrenare interested in what I'm
offering, and sometimes theyreject it, and that's okay, too.
They're free to they're free todo that. You know, they have a
mom who offers a lot of stuff,and they don't always they're

(54:13):
not always interested. Andthat's okay, too. So,

Amy (54:19):
yeah, I love that. Yeah, I'm thinking about my kids who
range in age from 11 to four.
And I'm wondering Firstly, is itjust that anxiety is so normal?
They have it but I don't see it.
Because I have a story of like,No, no, we're all good here. But
that's like always my story. Sowhat is really going on? Let's

(54:42):
look a level deeper. And I haveshared in the past in
particular, my my daughter who'sgoing into first grade, I relate
to it more as fears like Italked about it as fears and
it's very interconnected withanxiety and and we do have
conversations about it beingnormal to feel nervous, for

(55:03):
example, before the first day ofschool and, and that she's
scared, and she can talk aboutbeing scared. And what I have
not done. And coming out of thiswill now do is talk about the
feelings in the body and startto really, because she feels
things, and I really haven'tguided her in that way. So I'm

(55:25):
going to start that dimension ofthe awareness conversation.
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. Anythingelse you want to say to complete
our conversation about anxiety?

Lauren (55:37):
That's such a good question. I don't know. Let me
pass that ball back to you.
Anything you want to say beforewe wrap up, we'll see if
anything else comes up for me.

Amy (55:51):
I, I'm looking at my notes.
I think that the only otherthing that had occurred to me
when I was feeling anxiety lastnight, because this happens all
the time, I think I've made thatclear. I used to hide out from
my anxiety and pretend likewe're all fine here. And now
that I've realized I haveanxiety in my life, I think the

(56:13):
first thing I would just want tosay is, it has been profoundly
eye opening to me to just spenda week two weeks in this
preparation. And I wanted tooffer it as an invitation to our
listeners, to just be like ananxiety detective and observer
in your own life can be reallyprofoundly helpful just to it's

(56:38):
similar to what we've talkedabout before on the show of
doing a judgment detox, whereyou're aware of your judgment.
But in this case, I've just beenreally aware, tuned into, like,
oh, there's anxiety again,great. That's an example I'll
bring on the show. And it'sprofoundly shifted my
relationship with my ownanxiety. So for for one thing, I

(56:58):
would mention that. The otheris, you know, it pops up all the
time. And there's a couple ofother dimensions of it for me,
which have to do with control,and the future. And so we're
building a house for my mom. Andwe were giving feedback on some
of the selections. And longstory short, we have. Let's see,

(57:21):
I don't want to I don't want tomake the story too elaborate.
But after the house gets built,we're then going and doing a
second project to blow out thewindows because the builder
won't put in panoramic windowslike we like and do some other
adjustments. And all of asudden, I feel my like, anxiety
rising of oh my gosh, what if itgoes over budget? Oh, what f is

(57:45):
another clue? What if it goesover budget? What if we can't
get it done in time? What if Ican't find a contractor willing
to do it? contractors? They'rekind of notorious. I need to
find a good one. I got one inErie, Colorado. Oh my gosh,
money time. People. It's allthis control my desire for
control of things happening inthe future that are now just in

(58:06):
my thought loop. And I go, Oh,hello, anxiety. This is the
perfect example for the show.
Thank you. And also, yes, thethemes of those thoughts
oftentimes invite us toacknowledge them at least for
me, I go, Oh, yes, I can seethat that desire I have for

(58:28):
control popping up I can seethis future thinking that's
taking me right out of thepresent moment when it's like
bedtime, go to bed. Your husbandis never home on a Thursday
night. Sorry, Wednesday night.
He's here. This is awesome.
Like, don't you know and so itjust reminded me of some of the
common threads of my own anxiousthought patterns. And maybe for

(58:51):
the listeners as you become adetective about your own anxiety
you might see either similarthreads or your own threads of
your patterns that then whenthey pop up again, and again and
again. And if you're me ifyou're anything like me, they
will it gives you more access tojust acknowledging it and being

(59:11):
with it. And then kind ofreleasing it in my case in that
particular moment, I was able tojust go Oh great, I'm gonna put
you over here in the pile ofstuff to worry about tomorrow or
like even a month from now we'llbe fine. We can just kick that
can down the street.

Lauren (59:27):
Yeah, absolutely. And when I get anxious about
practical things, life things,which I think is I imagine
that's relatively common formost of us humans getting
anxious about money orcontractors or houses you know,
anyone who's buying or selling ahouse right now I'm imagining
they have some anxiety. And I'm,you know, for me when I have

(59:47):
that anxiety and it startslooping all ask myself, okay,
what is in my power to do aboutthis? When do I want to like
schedule a time to do it So ifI'm going, Oh, I, you know,
contractors are hit or miss, Iwant to spend some time

(01:00:08):
researching as much as I canlearning as much as I can, but
I'll put a limit on it too,because I have a relationship
with infinity. And I can turnalmost anything into something.
And, you know, it's not servingme to infinitely research and
try to find concrete definitiveanswers that I just might not be

(01:00:32):
able to find or not might mightnot want to devote that amount
of energy. But I'll ask myself,okay, this is a practical
concern, it deserves someattention, or I want to give it
some attention, how muchattention when do I want to give
it that attention. Sometimes, ifI put it on my calendar, I'm
going to spend an hour nextThursday, researching these
things, and it's on the calendarthat sometimes allows my nervous

(01:00:56):
system to relax because it knowsthere's a plan, and it's going
to be taken care of. So for me,when I think about like kicking
the can down the road, which Ido regularly, I'll even click
off my reminders on my phone ormove them to a different day,
I'll keep kicking that can downthe road. Like I don't feel like
doing it right now. I'll do itnext week. But yeah, it exists.
And I, I plan to give it myattention at some point. And,

(01:01:19):
you know, occasionally, I clickthem off, and I go, nevermind,
this isn't even worth my energyanymore. I'm just gonna go and
whatever is, is, but just tohave that because I you know,
it's all about that balance ofhow important is this to me?
What do I want to do about it?
How much energy do I want tospend on it? And, you know, put

(01:01:40):
limits or boundaries, make achoice, do that. And then also,
I tried to love and acceptmyself when I worry about it
outside of the parameters thatI've set.

Amy (01:01:51):
Yeah. Yeah, I love that you kind of highlighted the next
steps of the thought stream thatI sort of just skipped over an
implied. And I had a similarthought of, Okay, what is in my
control? Great. What is itimportant that I do it right now
tonight? Nope. Okay. I didn'texactly schedule it, but I just,
you know, I, I can researchcontractors, and it's not going

(01:02:14):
to happen, you know, 1130, while1030 on a Wednesday night, so,
yeah, yes, absolutely. I lovethat. All right, I turn it back
over to you anything else?

Lauren (01:02:26):
I just am really benefiting from this
conversation in thisexploration. My journey back
home to myself has included alot of feeling my way to
wholeness feeling what is trueand alive. For me having a
relationship with it, seeing itmore clearly. And learning to

(01:02:48):
trust myself, a friend myself,work with myself, I think, you
know, a big shift for me hasbeen moving away from things
that feel like I'm workingagainst myself, to fix myself.
And instead working with myselfto honor the fullness of myself

(01:03:09):
to you know, re invite myselfback to wholeness. And that
feels better to me.

Amy (01:03:17):
I love that. And as so often happens, we're sort of
opposites in in some ways, and Iwhile you were working on, on
all what you were embracing youranxiety and finding your way
through it, I was avoiding andnot even acknowledging, so I
have actually finally found myanxiety and I'm, that's, that's

(01:03:38):
really life changing. So thankyou.

Lauren (01:03:41):
Beautiful.

Amy (01:03:42):
Yeah. Okay. Thanks, y'all for listening.

Lauren (01:03:50):
Thank you so much for listening. Today, we thought it
might be fun to read theGuesthouse by Rumi and share
that with you, too, as kind of atakeaway from this conversation,
about feeling our way towholeness. This is the guest
house. This being human is aguest house. Every morning a new

(01:04:15):
arrival, a joy, a depression, ameanness. Some momentary
awareness comes as an unexpectedvisitor, welcome and entertain
them all. Even if they're acrowd of sorrows, who violently
sweep your house empty of itsfurniture, still treat each
guest honorably. He may beclearing you out for some new

(01:04:39):
delight, the dark thought, theshame, the malice, meet them at
the door laughing and invitethem in. Be grateful for whoever
comes because each has been sentas a guide from beyond. And I
might even suggest that they Areguides from within, and they can

(01:05:04):
invite you into a fullerrelationship with yourself. I
wish you all well thank you forjoining us on this journey.