62: Reimagining Education: What if Schools Were Learner-Centered and Supported with Radical Trust? -- Miguel Gonzalez, Director of School, Embark Education

How does the way a school views its students impact their learning? What happens when we radically trust students and educators? How can we better integrate communities into schools? And what could alternatives to large class sizes look like?  

This week, we explore these questions as we continue to Reimagine Education with our inspiring guest Miguel Gonzalez, the Director of Embark, a micro-school here in Denver, Colorado embedded into a coffee shop and a bike shop! Join us as Miguel discusses the unique origin and goals of Embark and what it can teach us about the future of education.

In this episode we explore:

• What’s a micro school and what’s so revolutionary about Embark.
• The difference between teachers and educators.
• What’s possible when we put learners, rather than the curriculum, at the center of schools.
• The power of radical trust in the school setting.
• What’s a trim tab and how we can use it to turn the ship that is education.

Links so you can explore more:

For more on Embark, go to www.embarkeducation.org

If you're interested in exploring this  conversation about education further, check out our Reimagining Education Series at www.soulpathparenting.com/reimagining-education-series for more episodes! And if you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and leave us a review so we can keep the conversation going!

Episode Transcript

Amy (00:04):
We believe life can be a journey toward wholeness, toward
reconnecting with who we areauthentically meant to be. We
walk this path of growth anddiscovery with our children,
with our partners withinourselves. These are the stories
of what's possible. These arethe conversations that light the

(00:28):
way. Welcome to soul pathparenting. Hello, everyone. This
is Amy Cooper, thank you so muchfor joining us for Episode 62.
And our next installment in thereimagining education series. So

(00:48):
here's something I learned fromour guest. teachers teach a
subject they teach curriculum,educators, educate students,
they educate other humans. Whyis this important? Because as we
reimagine what's possible ineducation, it's fascinating to

(01:09):
realize what would be possibleif we actually put learners
rather than curriculum at thecenter. This is just one of the
ideas that are inspiring gueststoday is going to share with us,
Miguel Gonzalez is director of amicro school here in Denver,
Colorado, a middle school, infact, that is learner centered,

(01:33):
and embedded into a coffee shopand a bike shop. Pretty cool,
right? I know, I would love togo there as an 11 year old,
Lauren, and I just loved ourconversation with Miguel. He's
also going to talk about thepower of radical trust, oh my
gosh, imagine what would bepossible. If we had radical

(01:55):
trust in our educators and ourstudents, he's going to talk
about the power of everyone in aschool learning, not just the
students, and how little schoolslike his might just be the trim
tab that can eventually turn thebig ship of education. So let's
dive into the conversation.
Hello, Miguel, and thank you somuch for being here today.

Miguel Gonzalez (02:24):
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Amy (02:26):
We're excited to learn from you. And I would love to just
start by asking you to tell usyour story. How did you become
involved with embark? And howdid embark come to be?

Miguel Gonzalez (02:40):
Yeah, those are those big questions. Amy

Amy (02:43):
Yeah.

Miguel Gonzalez (02:46):
You know, I can start with with my journey. And
I would say, you know, like,I'm, I was born and raised in
Colorado, and I grew up in apredominantly white community.
So being, you know, a person ofcolor in a white community
certainly started by trajectory,and recognizing that things

(03:07):
didn't always align, especiallyin education settings. And while
I had a positive experiencegrowing up, you know, it
definitely created this, likethis, this dissonance in my
head, that there was somethingthere's something different and
something a different way to goabout things. And, you know, my
journey, both personally andprofessionally led me into

(03:30):
working with with youth and Iknew from an early age I wanted
to, to really work with withstudents in youth, one of my
first jobs was, like, working atlike, before and after care for
the YMCA. And like, really, likesupporting students in like, the
simple things in life, andseeing them like light up like
that was really, reallyimpactful for me. And so that
kind of set me on a path, youknow, going into college, and

(03:55):
getting my my, you know,teaching credentials, and I'm
just really starting myeducation in middle school, in
teaching in the middle school asan English teacher, is a
traditional Middle School inColorado Springs. And, you know,
even right out of the gate, I,you know, that dissonance that
that that disruption in my headcontinued to kind of neglect it.

(04:18):
And I was always the teacher whowas trying to do something just
slightly different thaneverybody else. And at that
point in my career, I couldn'tquite make sense of it, other
than it, like, I knew this wasright for the students in front
of me. But I still was like,really, you know, is really
young and maturing in my career,and was fighting a little bit of

(04:40):
like, Well, you know, there'sthe, the master teachers and
this is the way it was supposedto be doing, like be done and,
and then like, how could I findthe cracks in the system to do
what I felt was right, and whatthe feedback I was receiving
from my students were right andwrong. You know, moving moving

(05:01):
from that place like, you know,also being young in my career,
it was a place apart where I waslike, Oh, yeah, okay, like, I'm
ready, I'm ready to do somethingdifferent. Whether I really was
or wasn't titled, I don't know.
But that's the way life works.
And I ended up moving to aninternational school in Costa
Rica. And moving to aninternational school in Costa

(05:25):
Rica was really impactful.
Because what it did is it tookme from a big public school, in
the United States to a smallinternational school with a
small community. You know, as anAmerican International School,
it's like, you know, Americanschool, like a US school placed
in a foreign country. So ourstudents received like the US
diploma. And so it was, youknow, very similar, there was

(05:48):
lots of similarities. But thenobviously, you're in a new
culture, and working in asmaller community. And that
really was transformative.
Because it started to help memake sense of what was happening
early in my career, I was ableto like really build
relationships with my students,because it was smaller, I was

(06:11):
able to understand, like, whothey are, like, understand and
learn about their families andtheir siblings and their paths.
In the school that I was at wasmade up of a third of our
students were from the UnitedStates, a third were from Costa
Rica. And a third were fromaround the rest of the world.
And so it was really importantto get to know those students

(06:33):
and their journeys, because theywere entering the classrooms
with their own stories, theirown histories. And so you
couldn't just deliver a lesson,right? You had to understand who
these people were for them tomake sense of the of at sort of
learning. And so once I startedto make sense of that, that was

(06:56):
super, super impactful on thejourney. And while I was in
Costa Rica, that was also when Istarted my leadership journey.
And so I moved from theclassroom, I eventually became
the high school principal. And,you know, started to both still
really work with students, butalso helping adults make sense
of this. Coming back from CostaRica, after being there, for

(07:21):
five years, I moved into DenverPublic Schools as a kind of a
central office position, helpingcoach emerging leaders. And that
waspowerful in the sense that it
was the exact opposite of what Iwas coming from, and, in a way

(07:41):
really sealed the learning thatI think I needed to have, which
is that I don't like work well,in a system that large. I felt
lost, I felt like a cog in thewheel. And while I think DPS
does amazing things for whatit's doing, and how big it is, I

(08:05):
just recognized that it wasn'tthe space for me to make an
impact in education, and what Ifelt like I could offer so
after, after a year there, Istarted a journey of like, Okay,
well, what does this look likein the United States, I knew
that I needed a small community,I knew that's where I was going
to be able to thrive andcontribute to, to students and

(08:26):
families. And so that led me tobeing the middle school director
of a Montessori School, down inDouglas County. And all of a
sudden, now you can kind ofstart to see like certain
elements are starting to alignbecause now I knew community, I
knew there's this disruption.

(08:46):
And all of a sudden, I wasplaced in a community that
really valued, learner centeredor like education, right through
the Montessori pedagogy. And itstarted to really make a lot of
sense. Putting these threethings together, that education
can and should be done differentfor, for students. And, you

(09:11):
know, I really, I really lovedmy time there, but I'm not a
trained montessorian I, youknow, I think Montessori has a
lot of power, and is a pedagogythat's really impactful. And a
lot of students learn from it.
And I recognize that like, inthat I really recognize that
like pedagogies have believers,and that not being a trained

(09:33):
montessorian sent me a littlebit outside of the group. And I
started to question like, well,this can't there can't just be
like, one pedagogy that's rightfor everyone. Right? different
students learn in differentways. That's what's like, that's
what I've learned from gettingto know my learners. That's what

(09:53):
I've learned from getting toknow my communities. And well,
Montessori you know, reallygreat And probably the right
thing for a lot of learners, itcan't be right for everybody.
So, I ended up reallyfortuitously meeting, the
executive director of anonprofit called great work Inc,
who actually does traditionallyor had traditionally worked in

(10:15):
the Montessori world. And theexecutive director, Brian since
was, you know, really trying toexplore this idea of opening a
school imbedded in a coffeeshop, and a bike shop, a micro
school, and really also valuedall of those things, right,

(10:36):
having small community beingable to value and recognize each
learner as their own person. Andwell, you know, pulling from the
best practices of differentpedagogies, whether that be
Montessori or project basedlearning, or expeditionary or
Reggio or, or any of them,they're all fantastic. But

(10:58):
they're all in my view, a meansto an end. And so, when I
connected with Brian, you know,the idea, it was just an idea
embark was an idea. And so, youknow, together, you know, he had
already started in partnershipwith some other schools started

(11:20):
pinwheel coffee, which is one ofour two small businesses that
embark is embedded in. Butembark was just that idea of
like, how do we bring studentsand communities together and so
together, it's about like,together, we started that with a
team of founding educators, andreally breathe life into this
school. embark education, whichis its design, pillars are being

(11:43):
embedded, integrated, andlearner centered. embedded in
our businesses, bringing, likethe curriculum, across and not
siloed into English andhumanities and science and math,
but rather grounding in thecompetencies like critical
thinking, quantitativereasoning, and more like, you

(12:05):
know, meaningful pieces. Andthen learner centered, which is
really that piece of likeunderstanding our learners who
they are. And if we get to knowthem, we will make different
educational decisions, becausewe know who they are. And then
finally, like not being groundedin a specific pedagogy. Because
if we find ourselves defendingthe pedagogy versus defending

(12:27):
the learning that's right forour students, then we're
probably in the wrongconversations. Yeah. So

Amy (12:36):
Wow, there's a dozen questions that are
springing to mind. And also,I've had the opportunity to
speak with Miguel before I knowLaura, and this is your first
time meeting, Miguel. And youalso share a background of
having taught in traditionalschool, in high school,
actually, as well as havingtaught in Montessori so I'm sure
you're bubbling over withquestions as well. We're gonna

(12:57):
let you ask the first question.

Lauren (13:01):
You know, me, Amy, you know, yeah. Miguel, I'm so
excited to hear your story. Itaught high school English. I
think it's US English teachersthat are the rebels. In my
opinion,

Miguel Gonzalez (13:14):
it might be

Lauren (13:16):
No, no shade to all the other subject teachers, but my
English teacher, people tend tobe the ones who question things
to this radical root level thatI feel like you have so
beautifully done. And I was atraditional high school English
teacher, I dabbled inMontessori, I came to the same

(13:40):
conclusion as you. So my journeyincluded thinking Montessori was
the answer temporarily becominga believer and a follower of
Montessori. And then questioningthat and observing and becoming
skeptical and seeing how in theMontessori school that I taught

(14:00):
in, it wasn't serving everychild equally. in that
environment. That was myexperience, which I think
connects with your conclusionthat even if this is right, for
a lot of people, there's no onepedagogy that's right for
everyone. And how do we discernwhat is right for someone, we

(14:21):
need to know who they are. Andso that is just so beautiful. I
love the concept of your microschool. I love the premises that
it's built on the embeddedintegrated learner centered get
to know who the students are,how can we serve them if we
don't know who they are. I stillstruggle with what I'm still a
believer of and not a believerof I'm more aware of that now.

(14:44):
So as you've co created anddeveloped this opportunity for
students to be interacting withtheir community through a bike
shop in a coffee shop, which Ithink is incredible and
meaningful, and connecting inways that isolating factory
model school walls, and evenMontessori schools and other
alternative education, schoolscan still be isolating not

(15:07):
plugged into their communities.
As you move forward with this,how are you balancing, doing
what you think is best, withalso continuing to support
diversity and not becoming abeliever in an advocate of your
new idea, which I think is whathappens with the other
pedagogies? Does that makesense?

Miguel Gonzalez (15:27):
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, that's beautiful. That'ssuch a good question. And it
actually, I think there's acouple of pieces to, to that,
Laura. And I think, you know, itis continuing to learn every day
and what we're doing, right,like being embedded in these two
businesses has been probably oneof the most challenging learning

(15:48):
experiences I've ever had. And Ithink that might also be true
for the educators who, who wework with. And in recognizing
that, like, on the surface, theschool being in a bike shop in a
coffee shop, and all theobviously, like wonderful
learning opportunities that arethere are actually really hard
to match up, right? Because thespeed of business and the speed

(16:12):
of learning are two differentthings. Right, the decisions
that need to be made in themoment, on the business front,
are can be really ripe learningfor students. But putting those
together and overlapping intosomething meaningful on both
sides doesn't necessarily match.
So what that has done for us,Lauren, is, it's um, it's

(16:36):
essentially continued to keep usin, like, off balance, right? We
have to approach every day inevery week as learners. Because
nobody else has done this atleast not I mean, if you guys
happen to find a school who'sdone it, like in the same way we
have, tell me? No, no,

Lauren (16:56):
I literally searched because I'm in Indiana, and my
daughter is turning 14. And Iwas like, do I have one of those
here? And the answer was no. Sogo ahead.

Miguel Gonzalez (17:08):
Yeah. So like, it's really put us into this
place of true of true learning,right? Where we have to ask
ourselves critical questions, wehave to ask it of ourselves, we
have to ask it of our community,we have to ask of our learners.
And then it's not just any oneof our answers. That is the
right answer. Because actually,like, as I'm even saying that

(17:31):
like there's not, there's not aright answer. There's just an
answer. And then. So that's beenlike, I'd say, that's been
really, really important for usnot to, like settle into this
being like a specific piece,right. But then, the other side
of it is really thinking about,we were just I was just right

(17:54):
before our call today talkingwith some other leaders around
like integral theory and likeconsciousness mindset shifts.
I've talked with you a littlebit about

Amy (18:03):
Can I language? Yes.

Miguel Gonzalez (18:06):
And what does that look like? As educators?
Right? And how do we bothprogress through different
levels of thought, inconsciousness as well as
regress? And when do we do thosethings? And why do we do those
things? And how does that map upagainst, like a learner centered
paradigm, the learners that areparadigms are fairly well

(18:26):
established, you know, throughthe pedagogies. And then also,
through the amazing work oforganizations like, redesign,
transcend education, reimagined,Katie Martin has been doing some
amazing work out of altitude. Sothose the paradigms are feeling
pretty solid, that's really beenimportant. But the difference
between like understanding theparadigms and knowing them

(18:49):
theoretically, and thenpracticing and believing them
are different. And so how do we?
How do we question ourselvesaround like what we're doing in
a daily practice, like throughthe businesses? And then how
does that intersect with ourgrowth as as humans Really? And
how do we support our learnersin doing the same?

Amy (19:10):
I love that. And I want to, if I may echo back a couple of
points that you said that reallyresonated with me. So part of
your answer to Lauren's questionis that you're pointing to the
learning isn't just happeningwith students learning. In a
school, the entire school islearning. And also the

(19:32):
individuals are on a path oryou're looking to explore how
they're learning and growingtheir consciousness as humans.
So it feels like a model that'sboth learner centered, but also
that learning is embeddedthroughout the various
dimensions of the school in away that's really opening my

(19:53):
eyes to a new possibility, whichis what we're all about talking
about in this in this podcast.

Miguel Gonzalez (19:59):
Yeah. No, I really appreciate it. We've
actually, it's, you know, Funnyenough, we we do have, you know,
oftentimes live in a theoreticalland of that learning, right?
And like, what are the, youknow, we've oftentimes talked
about embark and like three andfour dimensions of learning. And
what are those dimensions, youknow, like the student learning
the adult learning how we sharewith the community, how the

(20:21):
community shifts, and how thecommunity learns. And like, all
of those have different threadsthat tie together, and hopefully
ground itself back in ouramazing businesses and embark,

Amy (20:33):
I also wanted to highlight and for me, this was actually a
big aha, in this conversation,which is crazy now that I think
about it just shows howindoctrinated I was by
traditional education. But Ithink it's really revolutionary,
this idea that you actually haveto get to know the students.

Lauren (20:55):
Yeah.

Miguel Gonzalez (20:58):
Yeah, it is it that like, that's the, that's
the, one of the biggestchallenges of traditional
education, that's actually whatwe are, like, we are taught as
educators and through, you know,many teacher preparation
programs and administrativeprograms is it's not, it's
actually not about the learners,it's about the curriculum, it's

(21:18):
about the data, it's about thegrades, you know, about the
textbooks or whatever thewhatever it may be, it's about
pretty much anything other thanthe human in front of you. And,
you know, we've definitely cometo realize that, like, when you
really, really know them, youcan't use the same, you know,

(21:39):
coming deeping dipping back intobeing an English teacher, like,
you can't just use the sameshort stories, year after year.
Because that's what thecurriculum says to do. If you
are looking at this humanrecognize, like, Oh, that's
going to trigger some of theirtrauma that they have. And then
that's going to shut them downfor the day, the week, who
knows, right? Or, you know,there's this really like,

(22:03):
they're, they're reallypassionate about, you know, a
certain topic and like, you canmake the choice to pull upon
something that's going to tapinto those passions. Further,
and then even more than that is,you know, in embarks context,
it's like, how do you make that,like, it's more than short
stories? It's more than thosetopics, but like, what are the

(22:24):
experiences that are trulyrelevant, that aren't
fabricated, that aren't thatdon't end with a presentation to
the teacher into the class? Youknow? How do you make decisions
that you're seeing this personin front of you, and you're able
to help them contribute to ameaningful goal or outcome.

(22:46):
That's where our shops haveprovided us with this real world
context. That is truly, youknow, truly unique. And in ways
that gives them something thatthey're grounding in, they see
it being meaningful, like, wehad students design seasonal
drinks for pinwheel coffee. Andthrough their seasonal drinks,

(23:08):
you know, they got to see themput on the menus, which is super
meaningful. They also got to seein track the sales, and what
does that do for the business?
And, you know, not every studenthad that. And I think it was
just as impactful for thestudents, if not more impactful
for the students who didn't gettheir drinks chosen to be able
to reflect upon Why not? Wheredid collaboration go astray?
Where did you know, our datacollection or quantitative

(23:33):
reasoning, not aligned with withothers, and like, there's as
much powerful learnings in thosepieces that's not about the
curriculum, not about, you know,the textbook that we're using,
but really is rooted back intogetting to know our students.

Lauren (23:50):
Yeah, there's so much value there. And I'm thinking
back to my traditional teachingexperience and to being handed a
curriculum and then have giventhe task of lesson planning and
trying to personalize andindividualize it for people I
hadn't met yet. And then meetingthose people, and then trying to

(24:11):
bridge that gap. And that, whatit's bringing up for me, and I
think you speak to this, Miguel,and I would love to hear your
thoughts on that it's bringingup trust. Because if we are
giving our teachers a curriculumthat we expect them to put into

(24:32):
the children's heads, because wedon't trust the teacher, to meet
the students where they are, andthen to figure out how to
collectively collaborativelymove towards the goals that we
are supposed to be equipped tohelp individuals move towards.

(24:52):
So how does trust factor in towhat you do?

Miguel Gonzalez (24:57):
Oh, man, yes.
So we talk about it in the senseof radical trust, Lauren. It's a
phrase that we use often is whatis it? And ask ourselves, what
does it look like to radicallytrust each other? And I think
that you're definitely, youknow, you're correct, like

(25:17):
trusting the professionals,trusting teachers, or at embark
we don't we don't use the wordteachers, we call them
educators. I think they'redifferent teaching and educating
are two different things. Butradically trusting the educators
to be like, full professionals,full experts bring their full
body of knowledge to, to bearfor for our students, and where

(25:41):
they don't know answers, that'sokay. Where they, you know, to
be able to be vulnerable andhumble in the fact that, like,
we're in this journey together.
And trusting that that's goingto be okay. trusting that you
don't have to have the answersto everything. But then, I think

(26:01):
the other piece that is we pushinto a lot at embark is what
does it mean to radically trustour learners? Right? Because
that's where also whereeducation goes awry is like, we
don't trust youth. Right? We, webuild schedules, we build boxes,
we control their time, we do allof those things, because we

(26:23):
don't trust them. And so, youknow, where embark has been
exploring is like, what does itlook like? We're actually where
you start the trust with thestudents, then the trust with
the educators, and then trustwith, you know, with me, with
the shops, with our communitieswith parents, and it goes
upwards versus downwards. Youknow, and really starting with

(26:45):
what is it? What does it looklike to trust students to, you
know, to make drinks that aregoing to be sold in professional
shops, to work alongsideprofessional baristas, and
professional bike mechanics.
And, yeah, so I think trust is,is a huge piece. And also trust
is is delicate, right, it canget broken, really easy. And so

(27:06):
it's also thinking about how doyou build, build the culture
that can withstand breaches oftrust? And, you know, what are
this scaffolded supports that wecan put in place where, like,
that's not a punitive thing. Butrather like a learning

(27:28):
experience? Or what scaffoldsdo, does that person need that
person need to continue to beefficacious in their learning?
versus it being like, Oh, well,you you didn't do that, right.
So now you have thisconsequence, but rather like,
hey, if we're talking abouttime, trust is time. Our
students build their schedulesevery week, I'm here at embark

(27:51):
and so we don't necessarilydictate exactly when they need
to read or when they need to docertain things. They're able to
build elements of their own timeand owning that that piece. And
certain students won't alwaysfollow through with those
things. And so instead of again,being punitive, it's like, well,
what does it look like to workwith an educator to have more

(28:12):
structured supports for that,and that's what they need right
now, that's not a bad thing.
It's just what they needdevelopmentally right now. And
then again, working towardsthose those elements of
autonomy, and of agency. So

Lauren (28:28):
I love that so much because children learn how to
make decisions for themselves bymaking decisions for themselves.
They don't learn how to build aschedule and follow through on
it. By being given a scheduleand forced to comply with it.
They learn by building aschedule following through or

(28:50):
not having educators aroundwitnessing, observing,
reflecting back to the studentwhat happened, and being willing
to ask in a growth oriented way,let's look at why that happened.
Let's look at how that happened.
What would we experiment withnext week, and I'm thinking
about myself, and I like tosometimes fancy myself a

(29:10):
professional adult at this pointin my life. And I create
schedules for myself and I don'talways follow through perfectly
on them still, and I havesurvived this long. So I think
about reassessing what wereasonably expect from middle
school students in the presentmoment and reflecting accurately

(29:33):
on what we are embodying astheir guides and mentors, and
you know, suppose that adults soI think all of that has so much
value, yeah, so much value thereand, and having a repair process
rather than a punitivepunishment system that get that
ends up in a place where wedon't really want to go

Amy (30:00):
Yeah. And I think a lot of what you're pointing to here, in
order to have trust, and reallylet radical trust, come to the
fore, we have to loosen control.
And there's this massive systemthat wants to have control more
than anything. I would love my,my, that's just my viewpoint as

(30:24):
a parent, and as a, you know, astudent who went through it, I'd
love to take the conversation inthe direction of how some of
what you're learning what theimplications are broadly for the
system. And before we go intoany specifics, do you have a
beautiful analogy? I think, youknow, the one I'm referring to

(30:46):
that I would love for you toshare with Lauren and our
listeners.

Miguel Gonzalez (30:51):
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we'd
love it. We love embark. And Ithink, you know, there's a lot
of pieces of embark that are,are incredibly powerful and are
like, really, really elementsfor people to learn from. But
embark is a micro school. And itis not we did not build it to be

(31:15):
to be scaled, nor necessarilyreplicated, right? We actually
fundamentally do not think thatpeople should come to embark
learn from embark and try tobuild their own embarks
elsewhere. Right. But ratherlike learning from our practice,
and learning from the differentpieces of what does it look like
to radically trust students? Andhow can we do that in our own
context. And so the metaphorthat we use, to really embody

(31:39):
that is the metaphor of a trimtab, which comes from
Buckminster Fuller. And what themetaphor is, is on big shipping
vessels, and big big oceanliners, the ship is so large
that the rudder cannot turn theship on its own, there must be a
smaller rudder, right at thebase, that must turn first. And

(32:02):
that smaller rudder is calledthe trim tab. And so every day
we show up and embark trying toembody the spirit of being a
trim tab, because if we're ableto turn, then maybe we can turn
the rudder, which hopefully,will turn the bigger ship that
represents education as a whole.
But we know that we can't do italone, we know that we're, you
know, our best piece of serviceto the educational community is

(32:27):
to be to be a proof point, to besomething different to be a
beacon of what can be possible.
So that way they can learn and,and make their shifts in their
communities.

Lauren (32:42):
I love that so much because I was completely guilty
at first of like, we need amillion embarks that will save
the world that will fixeverything, because that's me
still embodying the traditionalmodel of education that doesn't
work, which is this replicate,repeat, require kind of model

(33:04):
like find something that workssomewhere, you know, everything
that was handed to me, mighthave worked somewhere in some
moment with some group ofhumans. But it didn't work for
me, it didn't work for mystudents, because we didn't
create it from who we were whowe are. And so as I'm learning

(33:28):
from you, in this conversation,I'm learning Oh, if someone is
drawn to embark and loves whatyou're doing, can you share your
process of deciding on a coffeeshop and a bike shop?
What was that process like foryou and the people who
participated in that? Because ifI wanted to create the little

(33:52):
mini Rutter, what was it called?

Miguel Gonzalez (33:55):
The trim tab?

Lauren (33:56):
Okay, so let's say I'm in Indiana, you're in Colorado.
I'm like, Oh, I love this idea.
I want to create a trim tap inIndiana, that's going to maybe
help turn this router that'llturn the giant ship, that's
education. What would you offerme because you're not going to
tell me to copy and repeat whatyou've created, because that's
based on your community. Butwhat would you offer me in terms

(34:19):
of insight into the process, Imight try to begin to do
something that would actually beorganic and authentic for where
I am.

Miguel Gonzalez (34:33):
Yeah, that's a that's a really good question. I
think that there's a couple ofdifferent ways to answer that.
Lauren. I think, you know, myfirst question would would
really be around like, what isright for your communities?
Right? You know, you you wouldreally beautifully articulated
that, you know, the models ofyou know, something works so you
just replicate, copy and repeatit. You know, I I don't

(34:57):
necessarily believe that's theright way to go about doing
Because, you know, back to myopening, you know, my opening
piece around me being a personof color in a predominantly
white community, like what Ineeded was something different,
right? There's these disruptionsthat we, that we recognize, and
we need something different. Andso what's right for embark may
not necessarily be right for youin Indiana, you have completely

(35:21):
different people, you guys havedifferent value sets, you have,
you know, different pieces insmaller, smaller towns, bigger
towns, urban settings, all ofthose have different hallmarks
to what's really meaningful tothe people there. And so really
grounding and rooting in thosespaces, is where I'd first open
exploration on like, a big on abig scale, right? Those are big

(35:44):
questions that are sometimeshard to answer. But if I was
gonna take something a littlebit smaller, right? How do you
take some of this learningcentered mindset and be a
trimmed have in your own spaceswith with youth and learners,
one of the most powerful thingsthat, that I have used as, as

(36:05):
practices actually comes from anarticle from from Jim abric. ba.
And he actually has threelearner centered questions that
have really, really resonatedwith me. The three questions to
explore are, what am I doing,that my learners could do? What
am I doing, that my learnersshould do? And what else can my

(36:28):
learners do that will buildtheir learning increase,
increase their capacity tolearn? Right? And if you're able
to, like bring those threequestions to, you know, smaller
tasks, smaller spaces, and thenextrapolate that into like, if
we took that and answered thatquestion, just as you were
founding a school, founding alearning environment, or even

(36:50):
bringing together and gatheringpeople that can really put the
learners at the center via trimtab, and you can see it grow
from there.

Amy (37:03):
I also love that concept for parents, I'm going to take
that on, what am I doing, thatmy children could do or should
do? it's just interesting how,and we've talked about this to
Lauren, as a part of reimaginingeducation in this series, one of
the things we've talked about isthat education doesn't just
happen in schools. It alsohappens at home. And we have an

(37:27):
episode around the fact that theparent is the first teacher. So
I'm gonna borrow that. I'mwondering, just to build on
Lauren's question, I had arelated question. Her question
centered more on the process.
And where do we begin? Myquestion focuses more on the I
think the principles, what wouldyou say are their are their key

(37:49):
findings that you have that youfeel like could be extrapolated
and embedded into otherenvironments? Even? I'm curious,
I guess, let me rephrase that.
Or let me restate the question.
Because what's nying at me isthis, we have this big ship,
like you've talked about. AndI'm seeing in the context of

(38:10):
this conversation, the mostobvious thing that I never saw
before, which is, Oh, my gosh,the educators have to know, the
students as humans. It startsthere. It's not just as Lauren
said, something that you developyour curriculum and your lesson
plan and everything. And thenall of a sudden, you've got
these humans in front of you.

(38:30):
And now you're trying to haveone thing meet the other thing.
And so if we were to reallyembrace that insight, of knowing
the learners, firstly, what doeswhat are the implications for
the system that we have? Howdoes the system that we have
relate to that? Can it respondto that? Does it get torn to the

(38:52):
ground? Does it get? What do wedo about that understanding in
the context of what we havetoday?

Miguel Gonzalez (39:00):
Yeah, I think it's disruptive.

Amy (39:03):
Yeah, it's disrupting me in a really good way.

Miguel Gonzalez (39:10):
It's really disruptive. Because Because when
you when you do that, right, itchanges the conversations around
like, the things that we havevalued in traditional education,
right? The outcome could becompletely different. The
outcome of traditional educationbuilt on a factory model is, you

(39:32):
know, people who can followinstructions, people who can
complete tasks. You know, andthat that kind of ilk, but in a
learner centered way, like youroutcomes are like, people who
can ask questions, people whocan critically think people who
can assess problems and worktowards solutions. Those are
fundamentally different piecesfor our society. Right? Yeah.

(39:55):
And then like, if you I mean, ifyou take that back down into the
education system, On it on itsown, it's like, you have to
rethink like, well, what isassessment? What is like? How do
you assess that? How do youcredential that? What does that
look like in communities? And,you know, you have to rethink a

(40:18):
lot of the fundamental piecesthat we know as schooling, and
start thinking about it islearning. And that is, again,
like that's, that's thedifference between teacher and
educator, schooling andlearning. And all of a sudden,
you're creating these tensionpoints that we valued in
society, right, like whathappens when, you know, and

(40:41):
we're seeing it play out incertain certain spaces, right,
like we're seeing COVID, youknow? Well, as tragic as it has
been, it's also been verydisruptive in the educational
sphere is like, all of a sudden,sh T's, AC T's were no longer
these measures to get intocolleges and universities. And
all of a sudden, this data pointthis, like, these tests, these

(41:01):
areas of assessment were nolonger valid. And so we had to
rethink, how do we supportlearners and taking next steps
and relook at like the differentthose different fundamental
pieces, and so we're starting tosee this disruption play out in
different spaces. But there's somany spaces that are out there,

(41:24):
that it can be daunting to takeon all at once. And, you know,
there are, again, some fantasticorganizations who are trying to
break these pieces down intochunks to make them manageable
for everybody to, to dig into,you know, two of them that come
to mind are transcendent,education reimagined. Who are

(41:48):
really like pulling togethereducators from across the
country to hold theseconversations, like what does it
look like when we do this? Andhow does that affect assessment
and credentialing? Withouthaving an answer? Yeah.

Amy (42:02):
I'd love to shift gears a little bit if this is okay with
you, Lauren, if not steer me ina different direction. But I'm
curious about Middle School. Andhumans at this age where there
really, there's this and Laurenand I have talked about there's
this there's this almost missingrite of passage in our culture,

(42:26):
but that is that pivotal agewhen they're going from
childhood into early adulthood.
And I'm curious, based on yourexperience, as a middle school
teacher, you started there,you've continued there, what is
it that that kids really need?
Potentially, that they're notgetting in the bigger system

(42:49):
that we have today? But what doyou see as, as humans and as
learners, I guess, firstly, ashumans, what do they need that
life stage?

Miguel Gonzalez (42:59):
To be seen?
Right, like, to be seen is byfar the most important piece to
be valued. Right, like thattransition. Middle School has
been, like demonized in, in theUnited States, it is, you know,
like the horror stories thatpeople like, you know, you can
any us any adult, like, youknow, how is Middle School

(43:21):
shutter? Right. And it's becauseit's, it's, it is this
tumultuous time in development.
It is this place where they'reseeking identity, they're trying
on different personalities,they're testing boundaries, all
of these things are 100%,developmentally appropriate, and

(43:41):
are not always in control of thelearner. It's like the brain
developing, that's the chemicalsfiring, it is all of those
things, and they can't controlit. But because of our sense of
control, which we were talkingabout earlier, in the
conversation, we have, theydon't fit in the sense of
control, they don't fit into theboxes we want them to fit into.

(44:01):
And so when you try to do thatyou create negative experiences,
which over time in the UnitedStates has created this
narrative of middle school beingthis horrific time of like not
being accepted of tumultuousfriendships, and you know, all
of these, all of these negativethings or pure puberty, and

(44:24):
like, all of the pieces, it'slike, as you're going through
those things, it's like, it'shard, it's new, but your
concepts are changing. Andyou're trying to seek toward
like seeking a sense ofacceptance, and seeking a
community in which you fit into.
And so it is this missing time.

(44:44):
It is this time that there, youknow, the humans are wanting to
be seen and be given the spaceto safely do those things,
without judgment, withoutconsequence. Not that they don't
make bad decisions. Thereshouldn't be consequences,
right? There's consequences to,to decisions, but like, the

(45:05):
natural consequences that occurin the feedback that is given
from, from their peers, and fromsociety versus constructed, you
know, confines to be put in. Soit is definitely a forgotten
time. And, and also like, youknow, middle school, why middle
school? Why and Barkat middleschool like if you know, one of
it is if you look across theeducation ecosystem, there are

(45:31):
elementary schools, especiallyinnovative elementary schools
and pretty innovative highschools. And then you find
spaces that are k eight, or sixthrough 12. But nobody spends
the time to specialize in thisspace. Right, k five, or k k
eights, oftentimes just tackMiddle School on to the end of

(45:53):
elementary school experience, orsix twelves. You know, they just
tack it on to the beginning. Andthey treat them as high
schoolers or they treat them asglorified elementary school
students versus like, you haveunique needs in your
development. And you need to behonored for that. So yeah,
that's why Middle School. Andthat's why I think that that's

(46:14):
what I think they need in thisin this time of development.

Amy (46:19):
I love that. And it's funny the first time I became aware of
embark, I, of course leapt aheadto the big solution, like let's
fix all of education. My mysolution was, what if every
Middle School was a microSchool, where you have 10 Kids
per grade and 30 Kids total?
What if everybody could come outof whatever elementary school
into a micro school And to yourpoint, I guess I had this

(46:42):
intuition that being seen wasjust so pivotal for that age,
and then we can put them into,if we could just pick the middle
school, wouldn't that be a placeto start? So what you're focused
on is, so I feel profoundlyimportant. And I'm also really
aware that I, my oldest of fouris actually only just now this

(47:03):
coming school, you're going outto middle school. But Lauren,
you have kids in this timeframeof life. And I'm wondering how
this lands with you and whatbuilds you might have.

Lauren (47:18):
I just love what you were describing Miguel, about
the way Middle School has beenignored when it's such a pivotal
transitional time. And so howit's either tacked on to the end
of elementary school, or thebeginning of high school,
because Middle School is thetime developmentally speaking,

(47:40):
when children's bodies areentering into the process of
changing from a child body to anadult body, their brains are
developing in unique ways. Andthere's this, you know,
transition that's not beinghonored and the value of being
in a small community wherepeople can where you can be seen
and known and experiment withwho you're becoming and interact

(48:04):
in meaningful ways that feels sovaluable to me. And at the same
time. I'm kind of always like,microcosm, macrocosm, and like,
this is great for middle school.
Is it also great for every age,you know, yeah, every age going
to benefit just as much frombeing seen. And yes, having a
small community, or because Icould imagine, and I'm so I was

(48:27):
a high school teacher, that'swhere my, you know, suppose that
expertise lies. I could imaginethe possibility of a larger High
School having positives for thatage group. So like, maybe the
the initial instinct to Oh, thisis good for this group. Let's do

(48:48):
it for everyone. Well, maybe notmaybe Middle School is the time
is a time where that's mostvaluable. But even then, I'm
trying to universalize andgeneralize things. And I think,
Amy, you and I have been tryingwith our questions to tease
apart, what is universalizeddouble and what needs to be

(49:09):
specific to those particularhumans? Because we could
universalize the idea thatduring puberty during that
transition during middle school,smaller communities where they
can be seen and heard and valuedour best, we could try to
universalize that. And maybethat is true. Yeah, so I guess I

(49:31):
don't know. I'm kind of and youasked about my own children. So
I have a 12 and almost 14 yearold and I feel like at every age
being seen and valued andincluded in whatever was being
asked of them whether it was athome or at school. I can't see a
time when that's not what wouldbe best, but I can't imagine My

(49:57):
daughter is turning 14 andseeking more. I could imagine a
bigger High School offeringthings of value, as opposed to
the idea that every schoolshould be a micro school, you
know, so I don't know if that'suseful, or if there's a question
in there, this is just sofascinating. I feel like when

(50:20):
you tease things apart, and theyget more complex, you know, they
don't get simple, they becomemore complex.

Miguel Gonzalez (50:29):
Yeah, so Lauren, I do think that, you
know, the micro schools conceptis powerful. But it's not about
the micro school. Right, it isreally about the human
relationships. And I thinkyou're totally right around,
like, every age, wants to beseen and valued. I mean, we want
that we have the exact samethings as adults. Right? Like,

(50:53):
there's those moments whereyou're sitting across a table,
and in a conversation with thatperson who's really listening to
you. And those conversationsfeel totally different than the
conversations where you'regetting talked over. Or there's,
you know, clearly things goingthrough other people's minds.
And, and how do you take that atevery level? of, of, of

(51:16):
learning, right, whether that beelementary school, or high
school. So I think it reallycomes down to relationships. And
I will specifically comment uponthe high school side of things
and just saying that like,actually elementary school as
well, it's like, I think what'simportant is that schools don't
try to be everything toeverybody. Right? What we've

(51:36):
done in the US education systemis created these schools that
are behemoths that try to answerevery need of every student and
have every unique thing. Andthey just keep bolting things
aren't. They just keep addingthings on to what their core
mission is. And eventually,those things just collapse. And
so what the power of I believethe power of micro schools and

(51:59):
or smaller communities is thatif there's many of them, then
there's opportunity and choiceand being in being in the
environment that's right forthem, versus going to one
centralized thing that tries todo it for everyone.

Lauren (52:14):
Yeah, that is so beautiful. What that's making me
think about too, is thedifference between introverts
and extroverts. And thedifference between the variety
of humans that exists on thisplanet, just using the introvert
extrovert continuum as anexample. I'm imagining, if there
were a variety of types ofschools, sizes of schools for

(52:40):
various age groups, and if thecenter of gravity was in the
learner and what's best for thelearner, then the opportunity to
choose an environment thatmatches that human is so much.
So much better, in my opinion,then the current traditional

(53:00):
model of one size fits all whichends up shortchanging in my
experience, everyone. And sothat I I'm not, I don't want to
go in that direction anymore.
And then I don't want to repeatthose same mistakes by finding
the new thing that works for mespecifically, you know, even
reflecting back on your story,Miguel, and your connection to

(53:22):
yourself and awareness that asmall community was the right
place for you. And so you are ina small community, but your
message is not small communitiesfor everyone. It is what is
right for you that matters. Soif you're being told this is
what's right for everyone, eventhough we've never met you, and

(53:44):
we don't know who you are,that's a flaw. If you know who
you are, and the people aroundyou listen, and seek to learn
who you are, and help facilitatea connection between who I am
and what is a match for me. Thatis the transformation that we
could potentially apply to alleducation.

Miguel Gonzalez (54:09):
Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's not all
it's not about small schools,right. It's not about
continually pushing smallschools, small schools, because
I do think different students,you know, need larger
communities, smallercommunities, those different
types of pieces. So yeah, justreally agree with that
statement.

Amy (54:27):
The one thing that's coming to me in this conversation is
this notion of how tribes workedand that there is a threshold
for the number of humans thatyou can have in a group. It's in
the hundreds, maybe 100 to 300,where all of the individuals can

(54:48):
really know each other andfunction in a system where
there's relationship andconnectedness between them, when
you get very far beyond thatThen you start to have other
controls, quote unquote controlsin place, like a shared belief
system, like some of thedynamics that we've seen, as

(55:09):
humans have grown out of tribesinto bigger communities, they've
had to organize around. They'vehad to utilize other ways to
know who's in and who's out. Andthis is when belief systems come
into place that we all believethe same things. And so I'm just

(55:31):
hypothesizing that thereactually may be a size beyond
which, at a human level, youstart to lose the
interconnectedness and therelations, relationships between
all of the players. And thatthen becomes a system that needs
control. So there could be athreshold for how big schools

(55:52):
really could be and function inthis way of humaneness being at
the center. I don't know I'mjust hypothesizing.

Lauren (56:00):
Yeah. What that reason is, for me is a question. The
question being, how is itpossible because we love talking
about what's possible on thispodcast? Is it possible to have
a really large organization,whether it's a high school with
5000, if there's a high schoolin Indiana, with 10,000
students, that's huge for highschool, in my opinion. And yet,

(56:26):
a college with 20 or 40,000students doesn't concern me in
the same way, as a 10,000student, high school, and some
of the questions that arearising for me to explore and I
have no answers. are thequestions around? Is it possible
to create a very largeorganization that is built on

(56:52):
practices that allow for the COcreation of meaningful
relationships between smallergroups of people, because part
of what I was hearing in whatyou were naming Amy is, you
know, if I went to high schoolwith 10,000 students, it's
humanly impossible for me tohave a meaningful, intimate
relationship with everyone inthat building. It's just too

(57:13):
many people for that to happen.
But is it a mistake to concludethat therefore, meaningful,
intimate relationships can'thappen there? And they can only
happen in a micro school? Or,you know, are there ways to co
create that to the varyingdegrees? Because whatever the
scientific supposed limit formeaningful relationships is,

(57:36):
which is supposedly in thehundreds, like Amy was talking
about? Can we co createenvironments that support those
regardless of the number ofpeople in them?

Amy (57:47):
Thank you for so much more clearly articulating what I was
pondering?

Lauren (57:51):
Well, we love to nuance each other. So Miguel, do you
have any questions or thoughtsor nuances you want to add to
take us farther in thisconversation?

Miguel Gonzalez (58:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I definitely
agree with the wondering, and,and I think, you know, from my
perspective, the answer is that,or the, like, My thoughts are
that like, it is possible. Youknow, why, why universities and
not high schools, right, itactually challenge that, like
universities are broken intosmaller colleges. They're broken

(58:23):
into smaller communities with asense of an identity. And so,
you know, when when we send fromembark we send students on to
like some of the bigcomprehensive high schools, you
know, I talk with students, andI talk with families about
finding your community withinit. Because that's one of the
pieces that we know, like, youknow, research has been well
documented around, like when whystudents disengage, and it's

(58:46):
when they don't have a sense ofconnection is like a fundamental
factor in that. And so you haveto be able to have the smaller
communities within a biggersystem to be able to create a
sense of connection. The otherpiece I wander around with with
this idea is like,accountability, right? Like,

(59:08):
where does the accountabilitylie? If the accountability lies
with the bigger system, versusthe smaller system, then how
does that fundamentally changethe relationships that can form?
I don't know the answer to thatone.

Lauren (59:25):
Yes. I love your question. Because it's making me
think of the difference betweenfrom the ground up and from the
top down, right. And so if we'reworking from the ground up, and
we have enough support andresources and awareness, we can
probably facilitate anorganization or a community that

(59:47):
could ultimately be very large,but we've worked from the ground
up, we put the effort in to knowthe people that we're serving
and to keep changing andlearning alongside them and You
know, it could be that couldhappen on every level if it's
going from the ground up. Andit's continuing to be supported

(01:00:07):
and valued by every level, ifwe're going from the top down,
because in the traditional highschool setting, if you have
10,000 students, and thesuperintendent who doesn't even
visit, that building is puttingdown things that then are given
to the principal given to theteachers, given to all the

(01:00:28):
students, there's such a hugedisconnect there. And that's
when we run into, you know, themajority of students falling
through the cracks of a systemlike that, but that system
wasn't designed to serve them ina healthy way in the first place
anyway. And so because I thinkthe concerns teachers have about

(01:00:49):
children falling through thecracks, right? So if we were to,
you know, take what'suniversalized, double, from
embarc, and say, even in highschool with 10,000 students, if
there's one adult to every 10kids, and that adults role is to
know those 10 kids and know howthey're doing, and then report

(01:01:13):
to whoever needs to be reportedto you and make changes and help
support and because, you know, Itaught high school, I had 25 to
30 students per class, I taughtsix periods. I had, I had, there
was one year when my classeswere slightly overloaded. I
think I had 175 students, I saw175 students for 55 minutes each

(01:01:37):
day, every day of the week, wasI able to know them all? Know?
What's You know? And so, youknow, did I try my best was a
young teacher doing what I wastold and trying to differentiate
instruction and make itmeaningful, but also follow the
curriculum and, you know, dowhat felt like the impossible

(01:01:58):
until I got burnt out and quit.
Sure, yeah. But, um, had I beenassigned 10 students who I knew
my, one of my primary Jobs wasto know them, and know if they
were being supported. Well,that's a whole different story,
no matter how big the system is.

Miguel Gonzalez (01:02:20):
Yeah, no, I just definitely agree with that.
And, you know, in that scenario,Lauren, okay, I totally, totally
resonates with me. And itdefinitely calls me back to that
piece of like, what, where wereyou held accountable, you're
held accountable to actuallymeaningful relationships, versus
being held accountable, pushingstudents through a curriculum,
right? When you're trying toscale things on economies of

(01:02:41):
scale, and you're just trying topush students through the, like
a factory model system, youknow, having 175 students is
that's possible, you know, ifthe checkmark is at the end is
like you did it, then you'vedone it, right, versus being
having this accountability, bothinternal and external to
building relationships andseeing your students. Again,

(01:03:03):
that's that fundamental shiftthat we would see, and a
disruptive manner. And like,what would that do? Like, what
would that do to a whole highschool? Like, you'd have to
change the schedules, you'd haveto change staffing structures,
you'd have to change a lot ofthings. And change is terrifying
for systems who are doingexactly what they've set up to

(01:03:23):
do.

Amy (01:03:25):
Yeah. Which is why I've come to realize in the series of
conversations that we're nottalking about reforming the
education system that we're wehave, we're talking about
forming education possibilitiesthat don't exist yet. There's no

(01:03:46):
tweaking around the edges that'sgoing to make what we have work.

Lauren (01:03:50):
Well, and I just love your concept of radical trust,
and the concept of radicalquestioning, I was recently told
that the root of radical theetymology of radical is root to
get to the root of something. Soa radical question questions,
the root of it. And when we havethese massive systems, full of

(01:04:14):
people who I imagine feel likeyou know, cogs in the machine,
that's how I ended up feeling.
And when people question theroot of it, the the origin of
it, the purpose of it, toquestion that authentically, you
have to risk needing to changeit completely, needing to start

(01:04:35):
over admitting that this if itever served, it doesn't anymore,
and what you know, and then youbegin the difficult work of
where do we go from here? How dowe go there from here? What are
the next steps that we take andthere's so much resistance to
that, and I mean, Amy, and Ithink could speak to you know,

(01:04:57):
our experience. With resistancein terms of personal
transformation, even and Miguel,it's I see you smiling. So it
sounds like you know exactlywhat I'm talking about, even as
individual humans, the thewillingness to question, you
know, my personal transformationjourney has included radically

(01:05:18):
questioning how I was raised,how I was educated, what I was
offered, whether it served mewhether it matched me or not,
and a returning home to beingwilling to prioritize my
personal truth and my personalexperience over conformity for
the sake of safety. And I thinkthat's true for individual

(01:05:42):
humans. It's true for the wholesystem. It's true for change in
general.

Miguel Gonzalez (01:05:49):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely agree with that. And,
and one of the things, you know,I had a colleague said the other
day is, it feels like right nowin education, and in our world,
this might be the first timethat parents making the choice
to send students to the exactsame thing that they did, is not

(01:06:10):
actually serving, right, themeans of change is like, you
know, education is the is the isthe change agent in our society,
learning and growing as thechange agent. And for most of
our time in the history of theUnited States, like, it was
like, well, I did it. So that'sthe right thing to do. And that
actually did serve, right, thatdid create outcomes that

(01:06:30):
improved our society. But wemight be in this first place
where parents making that samedecision might be the more risky
decision than sending them tosomething new, to moving into
that place of change. And Ithink that is, is, is really
scary. Both on the educatorfront, and certainly on the

(01:06:53):
parenting front.

Amy (01:06:55):
I love that you're pointing to that. And I'd love to close
out with what thoughts do youhave for parents who are
wrestling with the educationalchoices that are in front of
them for their children? Andperhaps we have listeners who
don't even have the kinds ofchoices that we have here in the

(01:07:17):
Denver Metro area? And they havekids in a traditional school
setting? Because that'sliterally what there is, what
would you What would you say tothem?

Miguel Gonzalez (01:07:28):
Yeah, I think, first and foremost, I think it
really is, you know, Amy, youpointed to a beautifully earlier
is like, what are the threequestions like getting the three
learner centered questions tohelp with change. But, you know,
we talked a lot about, we'vetalked a lot about the
relationships that are formedbetween teachers, or educators
and students and community. Butyou know, what, I've also

(01:07:50):
encountered far too many parentswho don't know their own
children. You know, they thinkthey do, or they hope they do.
And moving beyond that into,they truly, they truly do know,
their students, because I thinkthat will guide guide the

(01:08:12):
decisions. And then again, likethe truck, like all of these
things, transcendent andtrusting their student to be a
part of the choice process, tobe a part of the discovery of
the learning environment, thatthey're going to spend large
swaths of their time during theschool year in, you know, and I
would encourage them to havethat open conversation with them

(01:08:33):
around it. And then from there,it's like, fine, you know,
helping, helping navigate, like,where they find those
communities. So if they're in abig system, that's okay. Like,
those are realities that weface, right? That doesn't mean
doom and gloom. But like, youknow, we were talking about
Lauren, it's like, how do youfind and explore the communities
that fit them? Right, becauseeach of them are made up of

(01:08:57):
smaller communities underneath.
And so how do you try it on forsize? And being okay, and
willing to move from one toanother to another, and try
them? Try them? All? Right.
versus just saying like thisone, this one's good enough and
settling. So yeah.

Amy (01:09:20):
Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your
wisdom on the show today. Thiswas really eye opening.

Miguel Gonzalez (01:09:28):
Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it.
This is Yeah, I love thinkingabout you know, the bigger
change the bigger system andthen certainly love sharing, you
know, sharing about embark andmy wonderful community so so
thank you so much, and I wishyou both the best.

Amy (01:09:43):
Thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed
this conversation as much as wedid. We hope that your school
years for those of you who havekiddos, either already in school
or about to go to school, areoff to a great start. And we're
excited to keep this reimaginingeducation series going. We have

(01:10:06):
two more episodes teed up in thenext few weeks that will really
get your wheels turning, Ipromise. So tune in for those.
And if you like what you'rehearing here and want to share
these powerful ideas and help usspread them, please share this
with a friend. Or take a momentto review the podcast on if

(01:10:31):
you're listening on Applepodcasts or wherever you're
listening. Take a moment toreview it. That's how you can
help more listeners. Find thisconversation until we talk
again, be well