64: Reimagining Education: What School Could Be -- Ted Dintersmith, Author & Film Producer

One of the things that most lights us up here at Soul Path Parenting is talking about what’s possible. In our Reimagining Education Series we’ve been focusing on what's possible in education, and this episode’s guest wrote an entire book about exactly that called, What School Could Be. Ted Dintersmith spent his career in innovation before becoming a change agent in education, focusing on reimagining school to keep pace with the tsunami of innovation that is reshaping society. 

This begs the question, what does school really need to do for our children? What is the purpose of school? And how should we educate our children in a world where computers and machines are replacing humans, not just in tasks that are simple and repetitive, but in increasingly complex jobs? Tune in as Ted helps us answer these questions and points us back to our most valuable strength, that which makes us most human.

In this episode we explore:

• Schools current purpose and what it could be when we envision the future.
• The increasing role of machines and technology in the labor force and our lives, and what that means for our children’s learning and future jobs.
• What type of learning and information really resonates with kids and is more likely to stay with them throughout their lives.
• The importance of letting our children follow their interests and passions.
• Why college might not be for everyone and the problem with college admission standards.
• Why we should foster and value human creativity.

Links so you can explore more:

For more on Ted and his groundbreaking work visit www.WhatSchoolCouldBe.org and www.teddintersmith.com or follow him on Twitter @dintersmith.

For more episodes like this, check out our Reimagining Education Series at www.soulpathparenting.com/reimagining-education-series.

Episode Transcript

Amy (00:04):
We believe life can be a journey toward wholeness, toward
reconnecting with who we areauthentically meant to be. We
walk this path of growth anddiscovery with our children,
with our partners withinourselves. These are the stories
of what's possible. These arethe conversations that light the

(00:28):
way. Welcome to soul pathparenting. Hello, and welcome to
the show. Thank you so much forjoining us, I am delighted to
introduce our next installmentin our re imagining education
series. And you know, one of thethings that most lights me up

(00:49):
and Lauren feels the same way istalking about what's possible.
And in this series, we reallyfocused on what's possible in
education. And today's guestwrote an entire book about
exactly that. It's called, whatschool could be. Ted ginger
Smith spent his career ininnovation before becoming a

(01:12):
change agent in education. Andone of the things I love about
his perspective, is that hebrings clarity to one of my
burning questions, which is,what does school really need to
do for our children? What is thepurpose of school? How should we
educate our children in a worldwhere computers and machines are

(01:33):
replacing humans, not just injobs that are simple and
repetitive, but as I learnedfrom him in increasingly complex
jobs, and that's kind of a scarythought. But there really is an
amazingly beautiful answer. Andit points back to what makes us
most human. The other thing Ilove about Ted's work is that he

(01:55):
himself has been on a learningjourney. And what school could
be is the culmination of a yearthat he spent traveling to all
50 states, visiting 200 schools,meeting with 1000s of people in
education, from students, toeducators, to administrators,

(02:16):
and legislators. And he pointsto the amazing and inspiring
work already happening byremarkable educators across the
country. So with that, let'sdive into the conversation with
Ted.

(02:37):
Welcome to the program. Ted,thank you so much for being here
today.

Ted Dintersmith (02:41):
I'm thrilled to be here.

Amy (02:43):
Well, we are just delighted to have you here. And we wanted
to start out with your story.
How did you go from being aventure capitalist and a career
innovator to being a changeagent in education?

Ted Dintersmith (03:01):
Well, it's, it's the buried of what
Hemingway said, about peoplegoing broke, you know, you go
broke gradually, and thensuddenly, so my transformation
was was gradual. And then quitesudden, you know, the gradual
part was, you know, having spentmy career in the world of
technology innovation, I had apretty good perspective of how
fast the world's changing, andnot that anyone can predict what

(03:22):
it will be like in 10 to 20years. I mean, that's beyond any
of our abilities, but at leastdirectionally some sense of what
will be important going forwardfor young kids, and what will be
increasingly irrelevant. Andthat was sort of lodged in my
mind. And then our kids, they'renow 25 and 23, as they started

(03:44):
going through school, and theywere at schools, you know,
people say, Oh, that's a goodschool, it's a good school,
great school, whatever. Butyeah, I kind of went from
trusting to questioning to beingconcerned to being, you know,
code read, alarmed. And, youknow, the second part was, was
one of my kids were in middleschool, we get this note from

(04:05):
the people running the school,and they were hard working
people trying to do good things.
And the note said, we're gonnahave a brown bag seminar, we
have a brand new program toteach your kids important life
skills. So we'd like you to comeand hear about it. And my first
reaction was, well, that'sgreat. You know, like, I was
really excited. This is a greatidea, a program to teach my kids
life school skills. So I thinkyou basically like, what, why is

(04:28):
this a new program? Like, youdon't like it? Isn't that kind
of the essence of school, youknow, to prepare kids for life?
And so I went, and I had kindof, in my own mind, a checklist
what I was hoping to hear, andthen it was, you know, not that
it was a bad thing, but it wassort of like once a month, kids
would go to an assembly. Nextmonth, they're going to see

(04:51):
pictures of people with tarinfested lungs, and we're going
to teach them not to smokecigarettes or something like
that. It was like, okay, that'sfine, you know, but But I said,
What Wait, like, this is not,you know, wait, you know, this
whole question of what's thepurpose of school began to
really move to the front of mymind. And then I tell a story I,
I made this list I said, Okay,I'm gonna really pay attention

(05:13):
to what they're being asked todo in school. And my initial
list had two columns, you know,one column was, would really
prepare them for their futures.
And I did have a reasonablevantage point for what the
future would be like down theroad for any young adult in a
world defined and reshaped byinnovation. And then the second

(05:33):
column was kind of useless orirrelevant. And honestly, the
irrelevant column was just like,it just filled up, it instantly
is like so many things they werebeing asked to do or study, I'd
say like, does this ever comeup? in adult life? You know,
like, actually, no, it'sstunning, right? Yeah, much of
middle and high school isconsumed with things that kids

(05:56):
have to study, the no adult use,and that they're the likely that
they use it is next to none. Butthe third thing that happened
was, I just started to seethings that made me realize, Oh,
my gosh, this is actuallyeroding something important. And
so if you step back and say,wait a minute, this process of

(06:17):
school is largely centered onirrelevance has very little This
is taking place to reallyprepare kids for their future,
and in many important ways,eroding what they're going to
need. That seemed like Code Red,that seemed like this seems like
a big important problem. And soI started visiting more schools

(06:38):
just to make sure it wasn't justone school, which it clearly
wasn't. And that led me into,you know, the past 10 years
where this is defined my lifefor a decade.

Amy (06:47):
Yeah. And you talk really vividly in your book, what
school could be as well as inthe film that that you produced,
most likely to succeed aboutthis vision of the future, where
a lot of the human tasks that wesee now, we'll be eliminated,

(07:08):
because machines can perform alot of those. I would, I was
hoping you could bring thatvision of the future to life,
and talk a little bit about whatyou believe humans can bring to
the party, when machines can doa lot of what the jobs today are
doing.

Ted Dintersmith (07:26):
Yeah. And I, I always feel like, it's important
to underscore just how fast it'sadvancing, you know, I think
people lose track of it, youknow, they say, hey, there's
still a lot of jobs today,there's, you know, this stuff is
still in the lab, you know, bah,bah, bah, bah, bah, but, but
fundamentally, you know, machineintelligence is advancing
exponentially, while humansevolved. Slowly, over 1000s of

(07:49):
years, you know, we're in aworld today in our schools,
where you, in some schools, wecan't even bring up evolution,
you know, you could argue thatmaybe humans are regressing
slowly instead of progressing.
You know, but but let's just saythe capabilities, and most
people, you know, him, thecapabilities of human are going
to be largely fixed in time. Andso when robotics just gets

(08:10):
better and better and better,there's no order sitting around
saying, Oh robots, the most youcan do is what people are
capable of. It's not as thoughit's gradually going to approach
this asymptotic limit of what aperson could do, it's going to
blow past it. You know, we're inthe middle of this summer
Olympics. And, you know, in, I'dsay, certainly, in 20 years, one

(08:30):
robot would be capable ofwinning almost every gold medal
in Summer and Winter Olympicevents. I mean, that's how, how
much progress is there. And thenthe the AI progress is just, I
mean, it's just breathtaking.
And so when you start tovisualize a world where any

(08:51):
muscle power job is gone, wheremid low level, certainly and mid
level, cognitive, thinking jobsare gone. What's that mean? And
it sounds, if you just look atit that way, it sounds like oh,
my gosh, you know, this is dire.
And I think if schools don'tchange, it is dire. You know,
but what's the opportunity, andthis is, I think the opportunity

(09:14):
that I want parents to bethinking about, right, is what
are the things that machinesdon't do? Well, you know,
they're not terribly curious.
They're not terribly creative.
They don't really approach theworld in the context of creating
opportunities, you know, they'reactually better and better
problem solvers. You know, youcould take most of the SA T, and

(09:35):
if not already, you know, we're,we're rapidly hitting a point
where AI would get perfectscores on any school based
standardized test. Should kidsbe competing against AI? No, you
know, should they be lookingshould we be developing and
fostering the things thatmachine intelligence doesn't do

(09:55):
particularly well? Yes, I do.
The other really hugeopportunity is that as good as
machines are, and in manyendeavors, they're way better
than people. But But if you lookat, for instance, a good
example, and it's in our film isnow, you know, and this is this
is not a recent development, butbut AI is better than the

(10:18):
world's best chess player.
That said, a pretty good humanchess player supplemented by AI
is better than the world's bestAI. You know, it's like that
combination of computationalresources and human, you know,
talent still is a huge winner,you know, and the issue I have

(10:39):
with school is if you say,leverage your capabilities using
online resources, you know, youknow, that's called cheating,
right, we will expel a kid forbeing that much more productive,
because they are able to sourcethat and leverage online
resources, when that's exactlywhat we should be equipping them

(10:59):
to do. And it's a talent, it's askill, right? I mean, you don't
just roll out of bed someday andsay, I'm suddenly going to be
great at figuring out what I canuse online to solve problems
more effectively. I mean, youhave to learn that. But we sit
there because we're so consumedwith the data tied to these
poorly designed tests, that wesay, Oh, you can't do that. You

(11:20):
know, like, that's off limits. Imean, you look at like, you
know, to this day in mathclasses, you know, you're nobody
will let you use photomath on amath exam, you know, like,
download photomath, you know, itdoes any of these sa t problems
instantly, perfectly for free,lays out the steps. And you

(11:41):
start to think, and this iswhere the opportunity is. But
also the heartbreak is how muchmore our kids could do. In those
five years of math, you know,grade eight through 12. Math, is
all done perfectly by photomath, the kid will not face a
problem in all likelihood, infive years of math, that photo
math or Siri or whatever, can'tdo instantly. What if we

(12:03):
rethought that time? What do youjust said, here's how you use
photomath, or wolframalpha, orwhatever. Now let's start to
equip you with the capability toleverage that to solve big hard
problems, and enormous upsidethere. But will we realize that
in the context of school, I loveto say yes, but maybe not in my

(12:28):
lifetime. You know, but butthat's not to say that any given
kid, any given family can't say,well wait a minute, or do we
want to be letting our kid moveforward with this boat anchor
tied to their foot, he would askhim to swim the English Channel,
or do we want to say, hey,there's an airplane, like you

(12:49):
can get a channel, like, youdon't have to swim with a boat
anchor, you could do so muchmore. And I think that's where
you get this remarkablecollision between the excitement
of the opportunity and thechallenge of a school education
system tied to these archaic,obsolete metrics for

(13:10):
accountability. But also thiscollision between what machines
do really well and and, and agoal in our schools to a large
extent of saying, we want you tobe some imperfect version of a
machine, you know, and lose youryour curiosity and your
creativity and audacity, andit's just an incredibly high
paced price to pay. And then youlayer on that. The fact that

(13:34):
when you wail on a kid year inand year out to better on this
stuff, you often create a veryunhappy child, you often erode
from that child, any sense ofjoy of learning or purpose. And
for parents, you have everychance of risking the
relationship you have with yourchild. And my question is, is

(13:54):
that worth it for a slightlybetter chance to get into a more
selective college? Whenoftentimes, the micromanage kids
the kids that look great onpaper, are, you know, those
families get back to me and say,we don't understand, you know,
like, we took 12 AP courses, wehad a 4.7 grade point average,
we had 1530 on sa T's, and wedidn't get into school x, you

(14:17):
know, and my kid feels like afailure. And we wage war for six
years to try to make thathappen. It's been enormous sums
on tutors, and they didn't getinto school x. And by the way,
school x is no longer Harvard,you know, I mean, school x is
often something that, you know,they're thinking, but that was a

(14:37):
no brainer with that kind ofresume. But you know, it's like,
the admissions officers I thinkare actually better than most
people realize that seeingthrough those manufactured kids,

Amy (14:48):
right. You've brought up a number of points that I want to
delve more into and back on whatyou were saying about math and I
would invite our listeners toConsider this because one of the
questions I remember you posingin the book was, Well, what do
you really remember? learning inschool? I speaking for myself, I

(15:09):
went all the way through, Idon't know, probably precalculus
and had absolutely no clue whatthe point was of any of it if
analytic geometry of thosehigher things, because my career
took me at the direction ofmarketing. And it wasn't until
watching a movie about how wewere putting, working towards
putting a man on the moon that Iactually, for the first time
saw, oh, there is some relevanceto calculating parabolas, or

(15:32):
whatever those things were, butI never applied I mean, in my
day to day work, I would justsay to myself, like, okay, is
over of equals x over 100. Like,we're back calculating
percentages. That's the fanciestmath I would do day in day out
in my job of trying to marketthe products I worked on. And I
think it's, it's reallyfascinating to consider, like,

(15:54):
why are we trying to have ourkids go to these certain levels,
you have a whole section in thebook about calculus, and and
people demanding that we havecalculus available to children
in these less advantageddistricts, and at the same time,

(16:14):
you're arguing, but is it thatis that the thing, right,
whereas I went entirely throughschool with not a single group
project, like, on collaborationskills, then I get to college,
and I had one group project, Iwas in a liberal arts and
sciences, and it was torture,and spent my career

(16:35):
collaborating. So I had to learnall of those things after
college, meanwhile, having, youknow, really great transcript.
And so I just, I wanted to sortof invite our listeners to
consider what are the thingsthat you most remember learning,
because it does point in adirection of where we might

(16:57):
focus instead. And I'm curiousTed, where what you most
remember, learning in school andLauren, I'm curious you as well.

Ted Dintersmith (17:08):
But you know, it sounds crazy. Like, I've
thought about this, and most ofmy K through 12 is a blur. But
But I, I can remember, this willbe, you know, this is really a
bit scathing, right. But ahighlight for me in K through
12, was a must have been like,fifth or sixth grade, where I
did one of those, you know,flower maps when you put some

(17:31):
salt in you, and in my state wasMinnesota, and I did. I was grew
up in Virginia, so I ended upgoing anyway. So I had to do
Minnesota on a piece of, youknow, poster board, to put in
the lakes and everything. But Iactually did something with my
hands. Remember some thingsabout Minnesota? and What a
pitiful highlight of you know,but but I will say this is when

(17:52):
I asked adult audiences, whatstands out? And I try to phrase
a question quite precisely,which is, when you think back to
the years when you were inschool, what experiences made
you the person you are today?
What were the most upliftingtransformational experiences,
almost never did someone say, aclass that they took, it's
almost always an after schoolactivity. It's like, we do so

(18:16):
many things, right. And afterschool activities, particularly
for the better off kids, youknow, like, who gets the most,
you know, the most robust afterschool activities, it's a well
off kids. But adult after adult,it is a sports team or a club or
something that a they didbecause they were interested, be
there was a high standard ofaccountability tied to actually

(18:39):
producing something other peoplecould see. See, you had to draw
on multiple skills, and D, youhad to work with other people.
And you know, like, okay, it'snot as though it's a mystery for
how to engage kids and learningthat matters. It happens every
day. It just happens in thatpart of the school day that we
think of is the fluff, you know,like the app will will tack on

(19:03):
some after school things. Butyou know, but the real learning
is going to take place duringschools. And the thing I go
after is this whole thing, andit's drives me a little bit
crazy when you see headlineafter headline about learning
loss. And the point I make thereis show me the evidence that
what kids seem to have learnedwhen they cram for 72 hours

(19:24):
before a test is actuallyretained. Right? There's almost
no evidence gathered on that,you know, and school should you
know, like, it seems to me ifwe're putting all this time and
effort into a form of educationthat we think is leading to some
form of learning, then we oughtto be spot checking kids on
exams to three months later tosee what they actually remember.

(19:47):
It's something any parent cando, you know, look at your kids
final. And then just two monthslater, say hey, let's talk a
little bit about this. They'llfind I think that an awesome
Almost every case the kid doesor it's like, so they never took
it. And and yeah. And so thenthe question is, what's the
point? You know, is it rightlylearning loss? If they really
didn't learn it anyway? And youknow, and so, but Lauren, what

(20:11):
about you? What stands out foryou in terms of school
experiences?

Lauren (20:17):
Yeah, so some of my most memorable, so I totally resonate
with what you were saying. Myfirst answer is things that
didn't happen in the classroomduring classes. So I was in
theater and the friends that Imade, and those those are the
things that were the mostimpactful, and that I miss the
most about, especially highschool. And I had a few

(20:38):
memorable moments in classeswith English teachers around
stories, literature writing, Iloved writing, and I became a
high school English teacher,because of that. And so those
experiences were meaningful tome specifically, because of my
interests, and where I wouldlater go, but then there were so

(21:02):
much wasted time, so manyirrelevant things that what you
talk about resonates so deeplywith me, both having been a
student, I have a master's ineducation, and I taught high
school. And there were so manythings, even as an English
teacher that I was required todo that were irrelevant. And I
was required to get the studentsto do those things. I mean, we

(21:25):
had spelling tests, we hadspelling tests every week, they
had to spell. And, you know, wechose really hard words, and
they had to memorize them, andspell them without being able to
look up how to spell them. Whythat's not relevant to real
life. You know, why did I haveto grade those things?

Ted Dintersmith (21:45):
Words, words like obsequious that if you use
normal conversation, peoplethink you're weird. If you know,
my wife's that a cute dyslexicand you think about how that
differentially impacts kids on ascale that spellcheck makes it
relevant. Right? You know, itmakes it I will give a shout out
though, on the English front.
Because, you know, I often Ihave, you know, decently

(22:06):
successful career in technologybusinesses, and my education
background, you know, I had aPhD in engineering, and
undergraduate, majored inphysics, and English. And people
say, Well, what about youracademic background really
helped you, you know, theengineering PhD, useless, other
than imparting some sense that Ihad credibility, but I really

(22:29):
didn't. Undergraduate physicsdegree useless English
background, incredibly helpful.
And so it always pains me whenparents will advise kids, Oh,
don't be an anthropology major,don't be an English major, what
are you going to do with ahistory degree or whatever, and
steer them to something theyhave no interest in doing like,

(22:51):
oh, you're going to be so muchbetter off as an accounting
major or something like that. Imean, I will have people tell me
how they, they will refuse topay for a kid to major in
something unless it's what thatparent thinks it should be. And
my point is that the liberalarts are actually incredible
preparation for career, I think,I think the failure there is to

(23:13):
be able to explain it. But ifyou're a philosophy major,
you're dealing with incrediblychallenging material and having
to critically analyze it andthen write really interesting
explicates on applications aboutwhat it means. You know, if
you're halfway decent atexplaining its relevance, that's
a very rare capability in mostcases, I mean, like, actually,

(23:39):
I'll triple underscore that thenumber of people in businesses
that can write well, is almostnone. You know, and, and people
will glorify these stembackgrounds as being Oh, you've
got to have a stem background.
And then they're not aware, forinstance, that when Google looks
at the most important skills topredict success at Google, out
of 10 stem background is 10th.

(24:02):
You know, 10? Yeah, you know,able to ask good questions,
leadership, empathy, you know,Curia, you know, it's like, all
these things that that actually,once you're in the workplace
really help you do well, we tendto view as the, the distraction
from better grades in, you know,accounting or, you know, like

(24:25):
these courses, and it's like,wow, think about the toll you've
taken on a kid who has nointerest in accounting, and you
just wail on them to be anaccounting major, not that I'm
not picking x I kind of thinkcost accounting is pretty
interesting, but I'm not I don'thave it in for you out there if
you're an accountant, but Imean, pushing a kid to do

(24:45):
something, some solace pursuit,because you think it'll be a
better career. You know, it'slike in many of these things are
headed for obsolescence, right?
So you could be telling your kidI want you to you've got to be A
lawyer will lawyer jobs aredeclining, you know, you've got
to be a radiologist, this is aparticularly horrible time to
put 10 years of higher educationinto becoming a radiologist.

(25:09):
Because AI does it better thanany human, you know, and so, so
I just like, it's, it's really,I think, almost like a guiding
thing when it comes to kids is,you know, like, the best thing
we can do is help them explore arange of things, find the things
identify the things they findinteresting, and the kind of

(25:30):
just cheer them on if they godeep with it and look for
adjacencies. And I think if youdo that, you know, so many
times, parents will say, Oh, mykids so upset, I can't get them
off of this. They're so obsessedwith this one thing, I really
where I say, let them run withit, right? Let let them just go
deep on whatever it is they'rereally interested in. Because

(25:52):
mastering a complex topic,whether it's something you do
with your hands, it alsorequires careful thinking, or a
seemingly distractingintellectual pursuit. You know,
that sense of confidence that akid gets from really becoming an
expert on something will carrythem through so many other
things. And and I feel like waytoo often will say, No, no, no,

(26:14):
no, you've got to buckle downand study this stuff that
actually I never used as anadult.
And it's all you know, and Iunderstand I mean, as I said, I
got a 25 and 23 year old, so Iget the, the, the risk aversion
and the kind of the Gulf thatparents take about, you know, am
I really ruining the future ofmy kid. But But I think way,

(26:38):
way, far more mistakes are madein chasing the right college
acceptance than in helping a kidfind what they're interested in,
and just supporting the heck outof them to go deep on something
they care about.

Amy (26:51):
I love that so much. Anyone who's listened to the podcast
for for any amount of time knowsthat one of my most profound
passions is passion, itself,because I've learned that when
you find those passions, thosethings that light you up, that's
really connected to your soul'spurpose to what you're meant to

(27:14):
be doing here. And so much ofthe time we we go through school
sort of diminishing in ourpassions, because we're focusing
on all the other things that wehave to do. And then we go into,
as you said, these soullessprofessions, if there were one
wish I had, it would be that wecould, as parents really find

(27:35):
those things that later kids upand double down on them. And
then for that to happen inschools would just be amazing
and fantastic. And, and, and Iand I'd love to segue now into
talking about what you did findwhen you went out and, and talk
to so many different amazingexamples of in education to

(27:58):
really explore what school couldbe. Because I feel like you
you've developed someprinciples, there's many
different ways that this looksand you bring this to life in
your book. But there's somecommon principles that connect
to this concept of reallyfinding what's inside of the
child. And I was hoping youcould share, peek the four
principles that you outlined inyour book.

Ted Dintersmith (28:21):
Yeah, I'll give a shout out. I mean, I as I
traveled, I was blown away bythe dedication of our teachers.
And so when you take issue withschool, which I take a lot of
issue with school, it'simportant not to confuse that
with taking issue with teachers.
You know, teachers are largely,you know, micromanaged at this
point, you know, they've had abunch of state accountability

(28:43):
measures or requirements shoveddown their throats, that they
have no say in. And it's thatmuch worse. Now. I mean, you
know, it's really a veryperilous time, I think, in our
world when, you know, thepoliticization of, you know,
COVID related things. Andsuddenly now you think about a
school, I mean, tell me, youtell me what you announced to

(29:05):
your school community, when itcomes to masks, it's going to
have everybody standing up andapplauding and saying, that's
great, you know, or thecraziness going on with Yeah, I
don't think last year, a singleHigh School in our country
taught critical race theory. Idon't think the people ginning
that up as a big issue, I doubtif any of them could begin to

(29:27):
explain what it is. But we'vejust sort of decided, hey,
here's, let's just turn ourschools into a pen yada, let's
just, you know, go after themfor, you know, and it's like,
it's like I, you know, anyparent knows this, right, the
idea that, you know, we spendour entire lives as parents,
hoping we can influence our kidsto some extent, right? The idea

(29:49):
that a teacher can make onecomment about some, you know,
controversial issue or assignone book and your your kids are
suddenly going to believe thatDo that. Like, they're not the
same kids that deal with us asparents. I mean, these kids have
minds of their own, you know,and I think we just need to as a
group step back and say, What dowe hope school, the school

(30:09):
experience does for our kids.
And I think we, I would hope wedon't want our kids to be
exposed to differentperspectives. And even if the
interpretation is something wedon't at all agree with, what we
would hope that's, as our kidsare exposed to alternative ways
to look at things, they have theskills to analyze it, evaluate

(30:30):
it, challenge, it rejected,debate with each other
respectfully. And I'll say onelast thing is that any parent
that goes into a school boardmeeting screaming, particularly
when they have no evidence forwhat they're screaming about,
should keep in mind that theyare setting where they are a
terrible role model for ourkids, you know, so so I think
it's really a time to supportour teachers, cut them some

(30:53):
slack, because it's been a verychallenging 18 months, and we
kind of thought we were out ofthe woods, and maybe we're not,
and so, boom, so that so whatdid I see? I mean, I saw, you
know,I think it's sort of the best of
times, worst of times, right?
You know, it's it's like,getting education, right is not

(31:15):
like nuclear fusion, you know,it's, it's not some arcane thing
that nobody can figure out, youknow, we have teachers all
across the country, I mean, Iguarantee you any school we go
to, we will find some of theteachers doing things that are
just blast, you know, helpingthose kids blossom, you know, so
it's, it's kind of, kind ofeverywhere, but at the same

(31:36):
time, almost nowhere. And so Ireally intensely tried to
identify what were theunderlying principles, and, and
the challenges, it's not acookie cutter, right, um, you
know, kids are vastly different,they get these, this wide range
of interest in skills andtalents. And arguably very

(31:58):
little of that aligns withschool, right, and so, so you
can spend all your time which isone model to say squish out
everything else, push them intothis narrow little box called
school, and then give themdetentions. If they don't do
really well, in that box. Ithink parents should think three
times from Sunday before they dothat, because I think you're
going to produce a very unhappykid. And they may look good on

(32:20):
paper, and they may get into aslightly better college, but
they're going to be the kid.
That's just kind of adrift inlife. And so what I saw that got
me excited. And I did use theacronym peak to make it easier
to remember, it's, in some ways,it's easier for me to start from
the end and work forward. ButBut when we talked before
evidence that you really learnedsomething. So it's the knowledge
that kids are developing throughschool deepened, retained, or is

(32:42):
it really the result of a shortterm cramming session and gone
within weeks, days even. Andwhen I go to these places where
kids were actually diving in,they were working on something
they cared about, it wasn't, youknow, a short burst, and then a
quiz and that onto the nextthing that they really were

(33:02):
deeply committed to creating orproducing something they were
proud of, or learning enoughabout it, they could teach their
peers about it, they could, witha great deal of precision,
explain what they were learning.
And when I circled back, and Ididn't get a chance to circle
back all the time, you knowwhat, this was not going away in

(33:24):
days, this was something thatwould just stick with them for,
you know, years and years andyears, as long as they stayed
somewhat interested in and wewere talking about English
before. I mean, if you become areally good writer, and then for
some reason didn't write duringtwo months of the summer, when
when you pick it up again, doyou say I don't even what's the
sentence?

(33:47):
Writing again, right, if youlearn how to sing, you sing, you
sing again, if you get good attheater, you know, the things
you master you retain. Sodeepen, retain knowledge, or K,
lots of agency, this is soimportant, you know, like, who
do we want to hire in the adultworld, people that can manage
and direct their own abilities,their time, their capabilities,
their efforts, particularlypeople who can identify ways

(34:09):
they can make the organizationor their community better.
That's who we want an adult. Andif you have to micromanage an
employee, keep in mind that theemployee you have to micromanage
today is going to be replaced byan automated solution. So if you
don't have that agency, you'resetting up a kid to fail. That
said, Oh, my gosh, the number ofkids in college it's still get

(34:32):
daily text from parents and Iwant to review your paper before
you send it in and give me thename of your email address. If
you're a faculty member, I wantto protest the grade you got. I
mean, we have kids that are 2530that don't have any real agency.
And and but I write about whathappens if you if you equip kids
with those agency skillsstarting in kindergarten, you

(34:53):
know, suddenly, everybody'slike, get so much better because
those are the kids that didreally well during the pandemic,
the kids had the wherewithal,the confidence and the ability
to identify what they want tolearn, and manage and direct
their own efforts to pursue thatgoal agency, vitally important,
you know, essentialcompetencies. The E of that, you

(35:14):
know, it's like, what do we wantour kids to get good at? And the
question I put when I visitschools is this, I say, if we
put in your school tomorrowmorning, a brand new student who
excelled at memorizing material,replicating low level procedures
and following instructions. Mybet is that kid would be on your
honor roll. You know, the over1000 schools I visited with that

(35:38):
question. Somewhere, nobodysaid, No, you know, that's the
kid that gets on the honor roll.
And the point I make is that'sexactly what machine
intelligence does. It's, I thinkit's really important to step
back and say, what will givethis child or this set of kids
that advantage going forward?
And it's going to be differentfrom kid to kid, but there's
some elements that just show upagain, and again. I mean, you

(36:00):
talk to anybody in the adultworld, they value people for
asking thought provokingquestions. It's one thing that
parents can do at the dinnertable, you know, what questions
should you ask in school today?
What what are some reallyinteresting questions about what
you're studying? What are some,you know, not? Will this be on
the test or something? You canlook up with Google? But what's
a real? You know, that's turnsout it's hard, right? You know,

(36:21):
turns out it is hard. And whenyou look at who asked really
good questions in, in schools,it's often the kindergarten
kids. And by the time you get tohigh school, it's like, will
this be on the test. So thinkingabout what you want that kid to
get good at, and then beingintentional in challenging them
with learning experiences thathelp bring those out very
important. And then I think,ultimately, the most important

(36:44):
is this sense of purpose. And,you know, when you put a kid
through 1216 years of do this,because you know, and I, you
know, K through 12, do this,because some anonymous college
admissions officer will thinkthis is good. Do you know, do
this x, you know, don't do thisafter school activity, because

(37:05):
this will look better on yourapplication, you know, like,
jumped in meaningless hopes,hoops, year in and year out,
then keep your fingers crossed,that somebody at graduation will
give a speech about go out anddo good things in the world. And
then wonder why the kids lost.
Right? Yeah. And so. So, youknow, my rhetorical question,

(37:27):
but not entirely rhetorical iswhat if the purpose of school is
purpose? What if we really setout and said we want each kid in
a way that matches reflectstheir talents, gifts and
interests, to develop the skillsand mindsets to make a positive
difference in the world? Andthat define the essence of

(37:47):
school, which is what you see inthe film most likely to succeed?
And what runs through all theexamples I talked about? And
what school could be? And youwould think I mean, I hope that
that I said it that well, but ifsomebody's listening, you know,
I find people generally say, ofcourse, that should be the
essence of school. And thequestion of why isn't it? It's

(38:10):
simple, right? It's ourbureaucrats care more about data
than they do about children andthe futures of those kids. And
if a kid is, you know, if kidsare doing all sorts of different
things reflect their distinctivetalents and interest in creating
these things that you just say,wow, that's unprecedent. That's,

(38:30):
that's so great. It's not a datarelax, you know, related thing.
It's so instead we say, No, no,no, no, every kid's got to study
the same exact thing in it inadvance of the same standardized
exam. Because somehow, ourhighest priority in life is
making the life of a collegeadmissions officer easier. It's

(38:52):
like, screw you. I mean, like,what, what? Why is it that in
the trade off between happyprepared kids, and a few extra
minutes of the day for a collegeadmissions officer, the
admissions officers, time winsout? But that's what happens.
Right? Yeah. It's that's what weprioritize. We would like to

(39:14):
make, you know, you could alsosay, we want to make the life of
state legislators or StateDepartment's of education or the
federal, there are a lot ofbureaucrats out there. But But
ultimately, we're saying theirconvenience, you know, their
facility to quickly comparepeople on measures that have no
bearing on what will beimportant later in life should
define the lives of our kids.
And I think my message toparents is, go rogue, you know,

(39:38):
yeah, I mean, that's what theywant
to do. But the world won't endif you have a happy kid who's
getting really good at thingsthey care about. And if you can
help them understand how theycan turn that into a career they
enjoy, and that's very doable,but I think that's an issue.

(40:00):
When I say to parents is, is itreally worth it? You know, is it
really worth it to wage war andyour kid year in and year out to
do stuff that they don't want todo that, you know, is of no
consequence other than, youknow, academic performance and
risk your kid not talking to,you know, risk your kid being

(40:20):
deeply unhappy. I mean, thesekids, even the kids that seem
like the winners are oftenreally unhappy, right? You know,
yeah, I got into the selectiveschool, but, you know, I feel
like I didn't have a life, youknow, like, I do these events in
high schools where, you know,and I meet a lot of these kids
and interview them that we don'thave the happiest generation

(40:44):
here. Now, we have the set ofkids that are over programmed,
that are told endlessly to dothings they don't really want to
do. I mean, you know, I'mprobably older than anybody
listening to this. But so I'lldate myself, I graduated from
high school in 1970, there beentwo changes. And I've been back
to my old high school many timesnow. Two changes in in 50 plus

(41:09):
years, right. One is, when I wasin school, we had a fair amount
of hands on, that's gone, youknow, we dead shop that's gone.
Or, you know, sewing or, youknow, more, you know, they
probably still have some art,but anyway, but those types of
hands on, things have beenlargely pushed out. The second
thing, though, that is so muchmore important is, and I've

(41:32):
validated this with some of myclassmates. We don't remember
doing homework. You know, whenyou say to me, how much homework
did you do when you were in highschool? My answer is, I suppose
I had to do some. But I suredon't remember it. It's not like

(41:52):
I look back and say, my gosh,that was just defined and ruin
my life. It just, it just wasn'tpart of it. Right. And so I did
a lot of after school, you know,my answer the question, I was on
the school newspaper, and iteventually editor, the high
school newspaper, by far, youknow, so much more consequential
for me than anything else. But Idid those things, not because,

(42:15):
oh, this is gonna look good to acollege admissions officer, I
did it because this seemed likea good thing to do. All that
said, school doing wellacademically, in high school,
all these extra curricularactivities, I'd say, of my
normal waking hours, I still had30 40%, just to play around with
just to do, you know, and like,somehow, we've decided that in

(42:37):
2021, that if you have free timefor just exploring, you're going
to be hopelessly set back. Imean, really? No, we're not, you
know, and again, it's like, arewe gonna let the lives of our
kids be ruined by a bunch ofcollege admissions officers,
most of whom, by the way, are intheir jobs, because their kids

(42:57):
have legacy, you know, bigdonors, or former athletes or
whatever. I mean, these aren'tthe most thought to say it. But
I mean, you know, it's not likeadmissions officers in general
wake up every morning thinkingabout what the most important
things they can do for the youthin America. You know, I mean,
they're, they're trying tooptimize the numbers for their
school, right?

Amy (43:17):
Yeah. I love how you also even challenge college as a
goal, right? Like we go, we putour kids through, I guess, 13
years of education, with theexpressed goal of getting into
college, rather than learningwhat we need to learn to go out

(43:38):
into the world. And so I wonderif you could just talk a little
bit about your philosophy onthat, because I found it really
inspiring.

Ted Dintersmith (43:46):
You know, it's, I don't want to over I don't
want to say something's 100% thecase or there are a lot of kids
in the country that have greatexperiences in college and leave
and are really glad they did.
Yes. Is it you know, anexperience where you form in a
lifetime, there are a lot ofthings you know, say that if
college were reasonablyaffordable, you'd say this is

(44:08):
this could be a good allocationof time for kids. To think back
to my my situation, I graduatedfrom the State College in
Virginia my senior year, thetuition for the entire year, all
my course, the entire year'stuition in my senior year 1974
was 250 bucks. You know, likethose days are long gone it and

(44:30):
yeah, cuz we so obsess aboutcollege and think everybody has
to do it. And you have to do foryears. And and you're, you know,
somehow if you don't get intothis set of colleges, your life
prospects are seriouslydiminished. I mean, we just
obsess about this. We've givencolleges the ability to charge
whatever they want. Right. Andso the super affluent, you know,

(44:52):
who cares? The the handful ofkids trying to escape poverty.
Get into the schools. And if youlook at the statistics, it
really is a handful, thatthey're generally getting full
scholarships. You know, the themiddle income families are just
getting drained, right? They'regetting totally drained. And,
and my view on that on forgivingstudent loan debt, it's

(45:16):
controversial, but I just thinkit's a terrible idea. And people
will say, oh, how can you saythat? You know, and I say that
because it's $1.6 trillion. Andit fixes nothing fundamental.
And there's this massive moralhazard that if you do it for
some, you know, how do youexplain that to the kids that
dropped out of high school orhave only a high school degree
or went to community college fortwo years, or didn't go to their

(45:37):
very expensive out of statefirst choice and went to an in
state or all the kids coming inthe future who wanted you know,
it's like, it's like, sometimeswe just get caught up in these
ideas without thinking clearlyabout them. But two things. One,
we're in a really interestingsituation where, at this point,
anybody who wants to learnsomething can learn it on their
own. Even better if they learnit, by working closely with a

(46:00):
master practitioner. But I thinka lot of parents saw this past
year, how many kids were home,taking poorly taught lectures,
delivered over zoom? and saying,Wait a minute, you know, this is
$55,000. This is $75,000. Forthis, you know, and I think,

(46:26):
you know, there's this famousquote, I mean, a bunch of people
were asked, Would you ratherhave a Princeton diploma and no
Princeton education, orPrinceton education and no
Princeton diploma? And theanswer was, overwhelmingly, the
diploma, you know, the educationdoesn't matter. It's sort of the
signal. But I think there's somechance that that's going to
start shifting, and I thinkyou're going to start to see

(46:47):
more and more people kind ofunder understand that spending
$300,000 75,000, or, you know,whatever. But I mean, 75 to
300k. By and large, for a fouryear degree, leaving, still not
having any idea what you want todo, leaving still not having any
skill that an employer wouldvalue, leaving, largely having

(47:09):
lost your all the things thatare going to help you going
forward. That may be a lot ofyears and a lot of money to Ill
prepare your kid. And we'reseeing some really interesting
things where both employers andthese third parties are doing
these short term immersions.
Right. So you think about this,I mean, you could go, I'll give

(47:30):
you one example, a company thatI was introduced to recently,
these statistics that are made,everybody says, you know, like
four year degree is key to agreat career four year degree in
a stem major boy, is that everkey, you know, the average
starting salary for a four yearmajor biology major today, four
years degree bio major, averagestarting salary is $30,000. You

(47:54):
know, I mean, you could youcould work overtime and a
minimum wage job and get withinshouting distance to that.
There's this company offering athree month immersion on
relevant skills for thehealthcare sector. And with that
three month immersion, peopleare getting hired at $95,000
average salary. And it turns outthat if you're immersed in

(48:16):
something that you you'remotivated, immersed in something
tied to real projects, tied towhat is in demand, in a fairly
short period of time, you have agreat career. Now, will that
hold you for 45 years? Probablynot. But what will you like,
nothing will anymore. And sothis whole thing of spending,

(48:39):
you know, think about the pathto become a lawyer, right? So
it's organize your entire K to12. To get into the right
undergraduate spend four yearsand 75 to 300k for undergrad
degree, cram for the L SATsstupid test. But anyway, cram
for the L set three years in lawschool, that's another 200 250k.
It's cram memorization challengeout the wazoo for the bar,

(49:01):
become a lawyer, maybe not get ajob more and more finding,
they're not getting a job, maybeget that job in three months
into it, say, Oh my gosh, I hatethis. Or 234 years down the
road, you find that otherthings, technology solutions are
making that a less and lessinteresting profession. So if
careers are coming and going itThe world is in a constant shift

(49:24):
of flux. It sure seems like itmight be interesting to think
about an education model that'smore short term bursts that take
you to the next level. And thenwhen the world changes, get
another short term burst. Yeah,but it said we have these we're
building aircraft carriers, youknow, it's super expensive
aircraft carriers, and a worldthat increasingly views those as

(49:45):
sitting ducks. And so yeah, so Ithink that's, you know, and I
think that, you know, when youtalk to parents about that they
get, they get really nervous,you know, like I get that, you
know, like that's not what Idid. You know, you know, I want
to be able to say at a cocktailparty where my kids going, you
know, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah,you know, I think parents need

(50:06):
to just sort of step back andsay, wait a minute, you know,
like, you know, do I want my kidto be happy? Well, every parent
says they want their kid to behappy, I always follow up by
saying, like art, is the wayyou're engaging with your kid
likely to produce a happy, youknow, young adult, oftentimes
it's not. And, and then, youknow, like, you know, what, if,

(50:27):
you know, if the path of goingall in putting all the chips on
the college, you know, square inthe roulette wheel, is not 100%
guaranteed to pay off, it mightbe a 20% chance of paying off,
you know, like, like, it's notworking for a lot more people

(50:48):
than it's working for. Yeah,this might be an interesting
time to say, let's thinkdifferently. You know, and, and,
you know, you have a kid that'sresourceful, that's passionate,
that, that is seeing how theycan learn things that matter,
that are making positivecontributions to the world, that
starts to be able to markettheir own skills and

(51:10):
capabilities. So they'reactually creating a really
fulfilling career path. rulechanges a million ways. those
skills last right, those skillslast. And so I think parents in
some ways, this is the perfecttime to step back and say, wait
a minute, you're like, you know,like, if you use a metaphor,
maybe I shouldn't wage all outwar, to to produce a kid who's a

(51:30):
great covered wagon driver,like, not be worth ruining my
relationship with my kid anddraining my bank account, so
that they're really good atdriving a covered wagon, when
there are a lot of differentthings, you know, emerging right
now that are really interestingalternatives.

Amy (51:51):
Yeah, I love I love how you're just expanding. And it's
not to say college isn't right.
For some people. It's just Itfeels like the conversation in
America today is that college isfor every one. And you're really
just opening that up in waysthat I think are extremely
important for where we are. Andbefore we conclude our

(52:12):
conversation, there was oneelement that I was hoping you
could talk a little bit moreabout, which is, when I started
down this path of learning moreabout education, and I had a
mindset of, well, it workedreally great for me, this old
model, and I then started torealize, wait, maybe it doesn't

(52:33):
work so great. But what is thealternative? And you have
mentioned in this conversationabout project based learning,
I'll quote you back to you oneof my favorite quotes in your
book, project based learning ishow people in the real world
work, we need to let our kidscreate portfolios of joy. And so
when I think about, okay,there's what was and to a large

(52:57):
extent, what is today and thetraditional model, and then
there's what could be thisnotion of project based model
and kind of student led learningcomes up, I wonder if you could
just bring that to life a littlebit for our listeners, because
it wasn't totally clear in mymind, what that might mean or
look like,

Ted Dintersmith (53:19):
you know, you see these things. I mean, I
could take a very specificexample is when the pandemic
broke, there was this highschool kid, who is not a high
academic achieving kid, who didthe best source of information
on COVID, Washington State kid,I mean, is that kid going to be
able to get great, you know,jobs down the road? Absolutely.

(53:41):
You know, like, and they justsort of, like, found it
personally interesting. Andthat's what happened so often is
that kids that, that don't findschool terribly engaging, which
is a lot of kids, right? Whenthey find something they really
care about, they just kind ofshift into 234 gears higher. And

(54:01):
so I think looking for thingsyour kid can do, and some words
are great, you know, like, youmay listen to what I'm saying
and say, I'm too nervous abouttotally going rogue when it
comes to school. But summers arethis incredible opportunity. Now
we're at the end of the summer,but you know, you know, or spare
time, I mean, on the margin, isit better to to ask your kid,

(54:24):
what's something reallyinteresting you'd like to
create, or what's a problem yousee in your community you'd like
to solve, and, and support themto do it. And when you're, you
know, other adults say, oh,you're gonna ruin that, you
know, they're not taking as manyAP courses, they're not doing
this. They're not doing that.
You know, the kids that areencouraged to go deep on things
they care about. First of all, Ithink they're happier kids with

(54:47):
a sense of purpose. And so onthe margin, even if you don't
completely reshape priorities onthe margin. If you're giving
your kids support andencouragement to just create
opportunities or identifyproblems, and figure out how to
make a positive contributionthere could be around your house
could be around the school couldbe in your community, whatever.
The second thing is that allthese people that are so

(55:10):
convinced that's going tototally wreck your kids college
prospects. You know, guess what?
They they've got a great essay,right? You know, like, and a lot
of times colleges, you know,will they, that essay is so
important. And they kind ofknow, when the parent wrote the
essay, or they kind of know,when the kid is writing about,

(55:32):
you know, going to Costa Rica tobuild houses for four days, you
know, like, Oh, my God, youknow, like, how many Costa Rica
you know, like, they've seenthose a million times, right.
But the kid who with their ownvoice can say, I really got
interested in going after thisproblem that I saw, affecting a
lot of families in my community.
And here's what I did, here'swhat I got good at, they're

(55:54):
going to be in great shape forlife with or without, you know,
a certain college acceptanceletter, you know, they're going
to be the kids that feel likeme, and my parent was behind me,
and helped me go after what Icared about. And I just think
that's a better path to a happykid. And I think that, you know,

(56:15):
that there's every chance ofactually indifferent or even
positive when it comes tocollege prospects, if you obsess
about that. But I I actually,I'm far more radical than that,
you know, which is I think theright question is, why do you
what not which, you know, mostparents always start with which
college? Let's make our list.

(56:36):
Let's make our list whichcolleges? I think the right
places to start is why I likewhat do you want to get out of
college? Why do you want to dothat? What What, what is your
thinking about how this is gonnahelp you become a more fulfilled
adult? And if they don't have ananswer, you know, I'm a huge fan
of gap years. And, and, youknow, most parents are like, Oh,

(56:59):
you know, they're gonna losetheir momentum, or this, that or
the other thing, you know, like,but I'm definitely not a fan of
expensive fancy gap years withsome program that cost as much
as college, it's just like, it'sincredibly powering to a kid to
say, whether you do it or not,visualize what you do for 15
months, if you could create yourown experience, subject to, it's

(57:21):
self funded. You know, and thatturns out to be really
interesting. And you just getkids thinking if, if, okay, I
got a 15 month free swing, myparents aren't going to
subsidize me. But you know, whatcan I do? I mean, you know,
she's not in the room right now,I had a daughter who figured out
workaway you know, you can tradeservices for room and board, and

(57:45):
did an entirely self funded gapyear, it actually saved money
during our gap year, and had agreat experience with it, you
know, and it's like, I don'tknow, you don't like it, if a
gap year throws them off thepath of going to college. And
maybe they weren't ready to goanyway. Cuz you know, that that
may be a good fitting last lineis that somebody said, Well, you

(58:06):
know, every kid does a gap year,it's just for most of them. It's
freshman year of college. Itcost him a fortune.

Amy (58:16):
I love it. Well, Ted, you have just been so inspiring. I
love your radical ideas. You'vereally gotten my wheels turning,
and I'm sure our listeners aswell, thank you for being here.

Ted Dintersmith (58:28):
Well, thanks to both of you for all you're
doing. It's great.

Lauren (58:30):
Thank you so much. We just got done talking and
listening with Ted denter Smith.
And it was just so fantastic.
And one of the things that Ireally wanted to highlight, but
we were we were being reallyrespectful of his time. He's
very busy. And we're justgrateful that he took the time

(58:51):
to speak with us. And so someadditional things I would have
loved to highlight or underscorewhile he was talking, but I'll
do it now is what jumped out atme was when he was talking about
how traditional school trainschildren to behave like
machines. And technology isadvancing so quickly, that we're

(59:15):
imposing machine like skills onchildren that will ultimately
hurt them in the future, becausetheir quote, marketable skills
will be surpassed by the AI andthe machines that can do them
better. And what jumped out atme was why are we treating
children like machines, insteadof like humans, and Ted dintre

(59:39):
Smith's peak, um, acronym thattalks about the things that we
want schools to do for our kids,the things that schools could
be, they could be a place thathelp children, discover and
connect with their own authenticpurpose. There's soul's path.

(01:00:01):
We're still path parenting,right? And we want our children
to live their soul's path,because there's nothing more
fulfilling than that. And so Iwas just really thinking about
how important it is to me to putmy children in environments that
support them staying connectedto themself, as opposed to

(01:00:23):
disconnecting them from whatthey want and saying, No, you
have to do this. Because I mean,and this was my traditional
school experience, literally, itstarted in first grade, while in
second grade, they're gonnaexpect you to do this. So you
need to do such and such now,and in third grade, and fifth
grade in middle school, in highschool, and in college and did
it. And then, you know, I'm thejohn Mellencamp camp song is

(01:00:44):
playing in my head, I want torun through the halls of my high
school and scream at the top ofmy lungs, I just found out
there's no such thing as thereal world. And the way I, the
way I interpret that is, but theproblem and Ted's brilliant with
how he talks about schoolsneeding to actually prepare kids
for the real world in a waythat's meaningful for humans.

(01:01:07):
Because the real world thatschool was shoving down my
throat throughout my traditionaleducation isn't the real world.
That's the point of the song.
That's what I discovered. And Ididn't discover it until I
became a teacher. And I was onthe other side of the desk, and
it gave me a differentperspective. And then I started
realizing it. But because Istayed in education, I didn't
have the same wake up call thatpeople like my husband or other

(01:01:30):
people had, who graduated fromcollege and or graduate school,
and then left the bubble ofacademia. And we're like, oh,
shit, nothing they made us do ishow it functions out here. Yeah,
the not being allowed to look atyour book, that's not a thing
out here. We can if there's abook, we can look at it, you
know, like, that's not me, justanyway, I would have loved to,

(01:01:54):
you know, share with him howbeautifully I feel like he was
advocating for teaching childrenlike full fledged human beings
from kindergarten, giving themagency honoring their
preferences, their intrinsicmotivation, and not interfering

(01:02:15):
with it, squashing it,redirecting it, even
pathologizing it. You know, wetake young children who can't
sit still, because their bodiesare moving and energetic, and
they want to work with theirhands, and they want to do
things and they want to create,and they want to explore, and we
go No, no, no, no, no bad kidssit in a chair, and that we're

(01:02:35):
pathologizing things that wecould be supporting, and like
fostering and so I just, I lovedit so much.

Amy (01:02:45):
Yeah, and I'm curious, because he really focused when
we think about what humans cando, that machines can't. A
couple of the things. There's alot, but a couple of things he
highlighted are that we'recurious. And we're creative. And
I would say as I reflect on myschool journey, that I didn't

(01:03:09):
lose my curiosity. But Icompletely lost my creativity.
And it has not been until veryrecently, and I am now 47 years
old. And over the last, I wouldsay a couple of years, I have
been rewiring my creativity. Iwas so and this is why By the

(01:03:31):
way, Ted denter Smith waspartnered with Ken Robbins, Sir
Ken Robinson, who has a anamazing TED talk, I would
encourage everyone to listen toit's been viewed by millions and
millions of people about doschools kill creativity. And I
think part of the reason thatthat, by the way, Sir Ken

(01:03:52):
Robinson passed on in about ayear ago. And so Ted's
continuing that work forwardthat they were doing in
partnership. I think part of thereason that talk resonates so
profoundly with people that itcould have so many views is
because so many of us see inwhat Sir Ken was talking about

(01:04:13):
the story of what happened tous. And I came up through
school, very compliant, veryachiever oriented, getting all
A's and became really convincedthat I had to get the right
answer. And so then I became, Ithink, afraid to be creative or

(01:04:37):
generative, because really, whatsuccess looked like was
regurgitation. Right, and I wasvery good at that. And so then I
go into a career in marketing.
And the irony is, yes, I had tolearn how to collaborate. I had
to learn all these skills, bythe way that had never come up
in my schooling, and I loved it.
I loved all of that. And I alsoturned to people literally

(01:05:03):
called creatives not me togenerate the ideas. Because I
was so cut off from my owncreativity. And so I just get
really excited aboutconversations that that focus on
how we might cultivateenvironments and experiences for
our children that don't cut offtheir curiosity and their

(01:05:26):
creativity, but it and then havethem have to rediscover it 40
something years later, but butactually embrace and cultivate
and encourage it. And I'mwondering if you've had
experiences, what yourexperiences are?

Lauren (01:05:41):
Yeah, no, I love everything that you just said.
And what's most alive for me topiggyback off of what you were
just saying, is our consciousparenting principles as
conscious parenting coaches, weare trained to help parents,
parent the child in front ofthem, not the child of their
imagination that they think thechild should be. And in school,

(01:06:06):
we need to support and guide andfacilitate and, quote, educate
the children in front of us notask them to conform to some
arbitrary standard that a fewpeople decided was the thing
that all kindergarten childrenin this country should be doing.

(01:06:29):
By the end of kindergarten,here's the checklist for saw the
kindergarteners to do this as ifthey're machines, as if they
have no soul, as if they have noindividuality, no uniqueness, no
gifts to offer us. Where's thetwo sided relationship? You
know, we teach parents how tobuild a connected two sided

(01:06:50):
relationship with theirchildren. And Ted, Ted denter.
Smith was mentioning multipletimes how when parents buy in to
the traditional school modelthat says you need to make your
child fit in this mode, we riskour relationships with our kids.
Yeah. Because if that childdoesn't authentically fit in

(01:07:13):
that mold, then they have to dothe thing that we talked about
with our parents, which is theyhave to choose between their
authentic self and theirsurvival, their authentic self,
and the mold that they're beingtold they have to fit in. And
this creates all kinds ofproblems. And it creates
compliant children, you can likeyou and I have talked about we

(01:07:34):
went through school as compliantchildren, we got the grades, we
got the degrees. And then wewere waiting for the next person
to tell us what we were supposedto want what we were supposed to
do next. Who am I supposed to benow? Oh, my job will tell me
Okay, I'll be that Oh, and then,you know, No wonder you're just
in the last couple of yearsreconnecting with your own

(01:07:55):
authentic intrinsic creativity,me to sister me to you. In the
last couple years, I've givenmyself permission to do things
for fun, because I want to, evenif I'm mad at them, I started
painting, I call myself aplayful painter in my bio,
because I play with paint. Andyou know, if anybody was going

(01:08:18):
to critique my paintings, theywould see that I don't know what
proper techniques are. So I'm inno way trying to use them. And
you know, like the academic guysversion of painting where it's
supposed to be this way, or it'sbad. Yeah, according to that my
paintings are bad. But you knowwhat? They're full of joy.
They're full of joy.

Amy (01:08:37):
Isn't that the point? self expression like,

Lauren (01:08:40):
yeah, we want to create portfolios of joy, like he was?
Yes.

Amy (01:08:44):
And, and oh, my gosh,

Lauren (01:08:46):
I want to share how I started my portfolio of joy.
It's, it's freshly in the works.

Amy (01:08:51):
So yes, really? And how, what is what, tell me more about
your perfect

Lauren (01:08:54):
like with a playful painting and stuff like that?

Amy (01:08:56):
Yes, exactly. And we talk a lot about play. And then you
don't even have to havesomething to show for it. At the
end of it. I wanted to share astory that I was telling a
friend of mine, when we weretalking about her passions, I've
started to explore more aroundthis topic of passion, as you
know, that I'm really passionateabout no pun intended. And as

(01:09:18):
I've been reconnecting mycreativity, and she was having
sharing similar feelings ofbeing cut off from creativity,
what I remember a point in time,a few years ago, where my
husband who never was cut offfrom his own creativity, he's
he's always known himself thatway. And he creates companies
and I've talked a little as he'san entrepreneur, so he's he, he

(01:09:41):
plays in that sandbox, a lot ofthe time and he would sit down
with our kids and just tell abedtime story. Like make one up
out of his head. And that ideaat the time basically made me
like want to start sweating like

Lauren (01:10:00):
Right, you were like, give me the book, I can read a
book, I can read a book, but Idon't have like,

Amy (01:10:05):
words might not come out my mouth. Like, you can, you can
have a made up story with Daddy,exactly. Or mommy can read just
like, these are your choices. Idon't do that. And then little
by little, I was like, why don'tI do that? Can I not do that.
And so as I've been learningalso to be more present, and

(01:10:27):
when you get really present, Idon't know if it's my own
creativity, or if it's likestuff coming in, you know, sort
of coming in a little help frommy spirit guides, perhaps. I've
started to just play with that.
And yeah, you know, when we seeresistance, we go, oh, there's
something there to explore. Whyam I resisting that. And so I
started small, just reallyriffing on the stories he had

(01:10:50):
already created, because there'sa certain template or theme. And
then in one of our kids isusually a superhero, like saving
the whole family from some,like, there's usually a giant
cookie and like a flood of milk,just to give you guys an idea.
And so I started to riff on histheme. And then I realized, I

(01:11:10):
can do this, like, I'm going totry to tell my own story. And I
had literally no idea what I wasgoing to say. And over multiple
nights, we created this wholestory together about this alien
that came in the spaceship. Andthe, the characters in the story
reflected my own children, theyhad different names, but they

(01:11:33):
were delighted to find out whatwas going to happen next and,
and then my daughter would say,like, oh, Mommy, well, what's
gonna, what's gonna happen next?
And I'm like, I don't know,because it hasn't shown up yet.
When I, when I start talkingtomorrow night, I will know
then. And it's this really funand foreign place to play. Like,

(01:11:55):
that is not who I was. And so Ijust bring that story up.
Because there are ways in whichwe can rewire our creativity
where, like you said, with yourpaintings, they don't need to be
judged. My kids are delighted.
Even if they weren't delighted.
They see me taking risks andexperimenting. And and I think

(01:12:16):
where I'm going with that isthis conversation was very much
about how we might reimagineeducation for our children. I
also think it's important thatwe look at our own educational
experiences, and what parts ofourselves we might have to wake
up or reignite. Mm hmm,

Lauren (01:12:36):
yes, I totally agree. I love it. Beautiful.

Amy (01:12:41):
Anything else that you were dying to our time with Ted? I
could have talked with him forlike two or three hours. But
anything else you wanted tochime in with?

Lauren (01:12:52):
I know, I could have done two or three hours easily.
Yeah, no, I think that was Thosewere the most the most
significant one for me was let'streat children like full human
beings from birth. Yeah, let'slet's really try to continue to
work towards that in ourconscious parenting and our
conscious educating, reimaginingeducation, what schools could be

(01:13:14):
schools could be beautifulplaces where whole human
children are invited tostrengthen their connection with
themselves Express what's alivefor them, what's coming
intrinsically from them fromtheir soul, their souls purpose
and be supported, andfacilitated and shirt

(01:13:36):
challenged. Why not? Right? Imean, challenges are helpful for
growth, if they're co createdwith the person in a meaningful
way. So if we imagine as parentsnow what challenges that adults
put in front of me, were reallymeaningful for me, and were
connected to something that Iwanted that I was striving for,

(01:13:56):
that I was interested in, andwhat challenges were put in
front of me that were like whatTed didn't or Smith was
describing as the justmeaningless, pointless hoops
that I kept being asked to jumpthrough. And so you know,
because people get nervous, likehe was saying about, like, if
schools are just going tosupport children, how are they
going to learn? How are theygoing to grow? Where's the
challenge? Where's, where's thepain? Where's the agony that

(01:14:19):
we're so used to like that we'vebeen taught is the measuring
stick for rigor, and value. Andthe truth is, you can challenge
people through what they loveand connect it to what they love
in ways that are meaningful andhelpful and that they appreciate
and grow from and that schoolscan be that so it can be, yeah,

Amy (01:14:44):
yeah, I find it I find it so I'm so optimistic. Really
hearing his vision and seeingwhere we can go and with with
education, our system was reallydesigned And over 120 years ago,
and it's time to re imaginethis. And so as we close out, I

(01:15:07):
just want to encourage anyoneinterested in diving deeper into
this. Ted produced and funded anamazing documentary called most
likely to succeed. That came outin 2015. It was in Sundance won
a lot of awards. And I'vepersonally found it very eye

(01:15:28):
opening. It's been screenedacross multiple cities, in
America educators. It'sgalvanizing I think, a new
vision among the educators whoare seeing it. And it's
available in lots of places,including Apple, you know, where
I buy my films. And so I wouldjust encourage you to check that

(01:15:50):
out. And if you really want todive deep his book, what school
could be is incrediblyinspiring.

Lauren (01:15:57):
Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,
until next time,