65: What if Play is the Work of Childhood? Shifting Paradigms and Starting a Play Revolution -- Sivanne Lieber, Parenting Coach, Educator, The Joyous Parent

Play - it’s fun, it’s joyous, it’s creative, it’s good for our bodies and souls - so why don’t we do it more often? Why are work and play considered polar opposites? And why is play largely confined to early childhood? 

This week we join the Play Revolution with parenting coach, educator, play enabler, and self-proclaimed joyous parent, Sivanne Lieber! Tune in as we explore the power of play and the ways we can all benefit from a little more joy in our lives.

In this episode we talk about:

• The true essence of play.
• Play as the work of childhood AND adulthood.
• How to bring play back into parenting. 
• The paradigms that unconsciously stand in the way of play.
• How we might co-create something new with our kids that doesn’t come from what we’re supposed to do, but rather from freedom, choice and inner knowing.

Links so you can explore more:

For more on Sivanne and the Play Revolution, visit www.thejoyousparent.com!

Episode Transcript

Amy (00:04):
We believe life can be a journey toward wholeness, toward
reconnecting with who we areauthentically meant to be. We
walk this path of growth anddiscovery with our children,
with our partners withinourselves. These are the stories
of what's possible. These arethe conversations that light the

(00:28):
way. Welcome to soul pathparenting. Hello, everyone.
Thank you so much for joiningus. This is Amy Brees Cooper.
And I am here to introduceEpisode 65, a conversation that
Lauren and I got to have on oneof my favorite topics, which is

(00:48):
play, and I have a confession tomake. I used to avoid play. I
had this belief that work wasthe most important thing I could
do with my time. And really,that work was my way to work. I
didn't see any of it at thetime. All of this was buried in

(01:10):
my in my limiting beliefs andsubconscious. But I had it that
I had to work in anything thateven felt like play. I now in
hindsight realize that I wouldavoid. And I also had it that
work in play were somehowbinary. So work could not feel

(01:32):
like play that was not okay. Butwhat if that's not true? What if
it's not true, y'all? Oh, mygosh, the years I wasted, but I
now know that it's really not.
And as today's guest assertsWhat if play is actually the
work of childhood beyond that,what if play could be the work

(01:55):
of adulthood to we're reallyexcited to share this
conversation with you today,because our guest, Stephen lever
is starting a play revolution.
And I want to join it, and Iwant you to want to join it too.
She is a parenting coach andeducator and what she calls a

(02:17):
play enabler. And so in thisconversation, we're going to
talk with her about why play isso important for kids and for
us, we're going to talk aboutthe power of seeing the
paradigms that oftenunconsciously stand in the way
of play, and how we might cocreate something new with our

(02:41):
kids. That doesn't come fromwhat we're supposed to do. And
these beliefs and paradigms,that we if you're anything like
me, you may have unconsciouslyadopted. But rather, we can co
create something from freedomand choice and our own inner
knowing. So with that, I amexcited to go to the

(03:03):
conversation. Enjoy.
Welcome Steven to the podcast.
Thank you so much for beinghere.

Sivanne (03:17):
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be
here.

Amy (03:20):
We're excited that you're here too. And we like to start
out with a question to reallyallow our audience to get to
know you a little bit. Tell usyour story. You call yourself
the joyous parent. You've done alot of work both in education
and with parenting. Tell us yourstory.

Sivanne (03:40):
Sure, I'd love to. So I was an educator for 15 years in
the Bronx, and Harlem andBrooklyn, in many different
types of schools, mostly a firstgrade teacher, always with a
progressive mind, but not alwaysin a progressive space. And
always from the perspective ofhow do I allow children to play.

(04:04):
And sometimes, as in my dreamschool, that was the most recent
school I worked at. I wasmandated to use play based and
experiential learning with our,with the amazing children I
taught. And in other spaces, Ialways had to close the door.
And when the administratorswould come in, I even had this
one school where we had what Icalled a fidget book. And they

(04:27):
would take it out when admincame in. So they would look like
they were busy, and then they'dgo back to playing. And nobody
ever complained. I never gotfired. And I think it's because
children were happy they wereseeing they were balanced. And I
got the highest scores becauseof that. So Oh, say all that to

(04:50):
say that now after 15 years ofteaching, I have shifted outside
of the classroom to work moreclosely with parents and
caregivers. And also educatorsas well. And I'm a parent coach
and and I am an educationalconsultant and a tutor. But I
most of all call myself a playenabler. And so what I'm doing

(05:11):
is trying to bring back play tothe mainstream start the play
revolution in all the senses ofthe term, not just play as the
work of childhood, which I verywholeheartedly believe in, but
also to bring playfulness backto parenthood, to adulting. to
life in general, and to reallyhelp us shift our perspective

(05:31):
around who and what we thinkparenting needs to look like,
when what we think children andchildhood need to look like and
feel like how we think learningto look and feel like I am
shifting paradigms.

Amy (05:45):
We love that.

Lauren (05:48):
I'm so excited. to talk with you. You already answered
one of my additional questions,which was because I had read on
your website play as the work ofchildhood, which I love. And one
of my questions to you was goingto be what about us adults? And
you already said, play foreveryone play for everyone? Yay.

(06:10):
Yes,

Sivanne (06:11):
yes.

Amy (06:12):
So let's dig in a little bit to play. How do you? Let's
just first wrap our heads aroundplay, like what is play? And why
is it so important? We loveplay, by the way, but we're just
excited to break this down. withyou.

Sivanne (06:28):
I am excited as well.
Well, I want to go back to howthe brain works. And when we're
thinking about early childhood,and we're observing our
children. Usually in the firstfew years of life, we see
fearlessness, we see curiosity,we see innovation, we see
ingenuity, we see trying andtrying and trying we see

(06:49):
repetition upon repetition, andwe accept it. And then at some
point, for some reason oranother, because our culture has
taught us so we stop allowingour children to play. We stop
allowing them to do anythingthey believe in or want or what
their brains are passionatelyworking on, we stopped trusting

(07:13):
the development, the naturaldevelopment of the human body
and the progression of emotionaldevelopment and physical
development, and cognitivedevelopment. And we start
demanding. And so if I were topart of the big part of the work
that I do is helping to peelback layers and help on Earth,
the true essence of what is realin life and what is not with

(07:40):
parents. And so when I talkabout play, I say this way, when
there aren't well, backing up alittle bit to the people to the
naysayers who say but what aboutresponsibility? And what about
preparing them for the futureand the office in the workplace?
We have to be serious sometimes,you know. So what I say to
parents is, imagine the engineerwithout tinkering. And imagine

(08:05):
the artist without trying andtrying and fiddling and
creating? And is it possible toplay hide and seek without
staying still in play? And is itpossible to play some incense
without following directions. Sowhen I think of play, what I

(08:27):
like to propose always is thatwe shift away from product goals
based play with directions. Andwe move back to the essence of
the truth, which is thatchildren can learn in an empty
field. All you need is a stick.

(08:47):
People can learn in an emptyfield, and all you need is a
stick. So when parents aresaying things like I hate
playing with my child, or Idon't know how to play with my
child, or it's annoying to playwith my child, or why does my
child not play the things that Igive them to play? And the
answer is always the same? Areyou being open ended? Are you

(09:09):
being child led? are youproviding open ended loose
parts? And are you focusing onprocess or product? So that then
what happens is that instead ofkilling curiosity, and then
having us first grade teachershave to fix it and get it back,

(09:31):
step by step by step. We'resupporting children who are
already in their truth andaligned with who and what they
are meant to be they already weall come on this earth with a
purpose. And when we allowourselves to play truly the true
essence of play and we go intoflow, and we forget time, and we

(09:51):
forget anything but this focus,and that is when we're truly
learning and developing andgrowing and becoming our truth.

Amy (10:00):
I love it.

Lauren (10:01):
I just love everything that you have said, so far, I,
I'm just resonating so much withwhat you're saying, because my
entire life's work right now isabout returning to what is true
and whole and real. And that inall of my life experiences are

(10:22):
connected to the theme ofunlearning the false things I
was taught, that separated mefrom this true essence, as a
child, as a student, as atraditional teacher. And I, you

(10:43):
know, my journey is from goodstudent to good traditional
teacher to burnt out bitter,frustrated, traditional teacher,
I taught high school English. Soit was a little bit harder to
get away with playing, but Iwill tell you what my final year
teaching at the traditional highschool that I taught at, I

(11:06):
instituted fun Fridays, and wehad fun on Fridays in my class,
because I said, fun matters. Andthat, so the curriculum I was
given, told me to do vocabularyquizzes, on Fridays, so I could

(11:26):
use that time to grade essays.
And the students would take thevocabulary quizzes in silence,
and then have to sit in silencefor the rest of the class. That
was what Fridays were in thehigh school where I was, so that
they were working and beingquiet. And I could grade their
essays that I needed to giveback to them on Monday to

(11:47):
continue the cycle of writingpractice. And that's what my
department had did. He was likevocabulary quizzes on Friday,
and then just make them bequiet. So you can grade. And I
said, This is stupid. And so Ifinally we're having fun
Fridays, and we've I broughtgames and other teachers gave me
the side eye, like, what are youdoing? And I was like, Fred

(12:10):
matters. And I was also burntout and done and like, ready to
be fired? So, you know, it wasfine. But um, yeah, so I just
love everything that you'resaying pretty much.

Sivanne (12:23):
Well imagine what would happen if all of us broke
ourselves out of the paradigm wethink we're supposed to believe.
And that's one thing that I'mstill hoping the pandemic has
apps done for us. Right now,we've had this a year of so many
people having a window into whatschool kind of is, I mean, it
was very strange and differentfrom anything that we're used

(12:46):
to. But I think all the parentsI'm talking to are starting to
understand, oh, this is hardwork. And, oh, my children
deserve to learn in this wayinstead of that way. Right. So
those two pieces give me hope.
And one of the things that Ialways say that I'm doing is I
have a recipe for raising lifeready, kids. The first

(13:07):
ingredient is values based, andwholehearted, which is all about
cup filling and, and beinggrounded and balanced. In our
own way, the analogy of whenyou're on a plane and an oxygen
mask comes down to your roomfirst. And switching this
paradigm from it's selfish totake time versus selfish not to.

(13:28):
That's the first ingredient. AndI think that Yeah, what you're
saying, Lauren, aboutplayfulness. And the second
piece, the second ingredient isplay as the work of childhood,
which we're focusing on today.
And the third ingredient thatyou just spoke to, that I'm so
passionate about is raising achange maker. And when I say

(13:49):
that, and I put on my socialjustice hat when I say this as
well, but from the perspectiveof what you just spoke to, I
also say, it feels to me, andI'm wondering if you resonate
with this, that our generationis one foot. Right? So we
understand there are many thingsthat need to be dismantled. We
know that there are a lot ofthings that are broken. And

(14:13):
we're not quite sure how to fixit. We're kind of stuck because
we are in what you spoke to alsowhat I call spiritual re
parenting. We are so consumedwith what I call D wiring in
order to rewire. But that's allwe're able to do. But I really

(14:34):
do believe that we are capableof seeing and hearing our
children and following theirlead in a way that allows them
to grow to be to feed.

Lauren (14:45):
Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I'm thinking of
developmental stages andgenerational transformation,
because when you're speakingwhat I'm thinking about in my
own experience is I startedwaking up at 30. And I started
changing the way that I wasraising my children and teaching

(15:07):
my students at 30. So I'm adecade or so in to this journey.
But when I started waking up, mychildren were like four and six,
you know, and so I startedchanging what they were
experiencing, then. And mychildren are 14 and 12. Now, and

(15:33):
they're, in some ways, obviouslydifferent than I was at those
ages. And they're more fearlessthan I was at 12 and 14, they're
more aware of oppression and howit functions. They're more

(15:55):
adamant about co creatingsomething different. And so when
you talk about that, Iabsolutely feel like as we keep
passing the baton, I loveimagining that my children will
be two feet, and they won't knowanother way, like they won't.
Because I feel like I went fromno feet in what are we talking

(16:17):
about? What is in what to let meput a toe in here? Oh, this is
scary. You know, because I, whenI was 30, I started reading
articles about alternativeeducation options for my
children. And I would like myheart would start racing, like,
Ah, this is scary to leave whatI've known. And also the you

(16:41):
talked about the D wiring tothen be able to rewire my
educational journey included Dschooling before you can truly
unschool. And it's that sameconcept, because when you you've
been so schooled, and it's soprogrammed, and it's so
automatic and unconscious, stepone is moving away from it. And

(17:07):
one of the I did an interviewwith two beautiful, amazing
women who are still in thepublic school system, and have
been their entire careers. Andthey're, they're committed to
change from the inside. And Ilove that. And I needed to leave

(17:29):
in order to, to de wire myprogramming. And now I feel
ready to return and help withthe transformation. But I needed
that break.

Sivanne (17:45):
Yes,

Amy (17:47):
I'd love to talk a little bit more about the D, you call
it the D wiring. I've called itthe great unwinding. Because
there's layers and layers thatwe take on as humans that within
conscious parenting we mightcall the false self that really
is sort of on top of theauthentic self, or as you say,

(18:09):
the true essence. And so I'mjust very curious to hear about
what are these sorts of ideas orlimitations that you have
encountered with parents thatyou help? Because I'm thinking
about parents, specifically theadult humans that got all wound
up like we did in ourgeneration? Can you talk a

(18:30):
little bit about how you how youhelp parents de wire what you
encounter? That's limiting them,and and in that dimension of
things?

Sivanne (18:43):
The question is, can I talk about this succinctly?

Amy (18:49):
For for the remainder of the time, we have, you know,

Sivanne (18:54):
well, the first thing I wanted to say is that I really,
I really empathize with all thesides of the spectrum on this
topic. And I'm in this reallyliminal stage where I stepped
out of the classroom. And as amother, also, I have a
completely different paradigmfor what I want for my child.

(19:16):
And then there's the what I'mchoosing to do for my child and
with my child and co create withmy child from the perspective of
if I leave the public schoolsystem, if people like me are
not in the public school system,and how will they ever change?
And so I want the unschoolingand I want the Forest School and

(19:39):
I want the Montessori and theWaldorf, and that's where my
spirit is. And in the classroomsI was that teacher who brought
that experience to children andkind of said, well, fire me if
you don't like it, but this iswhat you're getting from me and
I never was fired. I was alwaysloved and I I felt really good

(20:01):
about the work that I did. Andnow that I'm out of the
classroom, and I'm I'm actually,on the cusp of sending my child
to kindergarten, in two weeks, Ihad this existential crisis of
what you described of what weare wired to believe, what we
want to believe in what I dobelieve. And in order to follow

(20:22):
my truth, it was very nuanced,because truly following my truth
would be sending her to thisreally amazing private school.
In terms of my truth of how Iwent, I think she deserves to
learn, but then I wouldn't be, Iwould be part of a piece of the
problem, which is privilege,marginalizing access to all. Um,

(20:44):
so I did, I ended up sending herwe're going to send her to the
public school, I have no ideahow this is going to pan out. I
believe I'm going to be angry alot of the time. And I'm going
to be a magnanimous colleague,and offer my help in any way
that I can and only try to shiftmindfully and what I truly

(21:04):
believe, can be and should be,right, I don't want to become
this person from the outsidecoming in and saying, I know all
this stuff that you need to doit, right. So I think that
there's there's just a lot tothink about around this topic,
right. But um, when I'm workingwith parents, it always comes

(21:25):
back to the same thing, which isthat we are LED, when we are
triggered. And we are in what Icall the muck, the muck cycle,
because we're all in the muckall the time in different ways.
And then we come out of it, andthen we go back into it. We're
triggered by either fear, anger,or she. And I know that the

(21:50):
conscious parenting world alignsa lot with this. So the question
that I asked the parents oftenis, what do you feel in your
body? When you're triggered? Andwhat do you think leaves you
fear, anger or shame? Then thequestion is, it becomes what do
you believe? And then the nextone is, must that be? So? Then

(22:16):
the next question is, where didyou learn to believe that? And
then the next question becomes,what might you believe, if you
listened only to your name. AndI like to use the analogy about
a mess, because that's an easyone for all of us to tag on to,
right. So, for example, all ofus have learned to be good, that

(22:41):
to be good parents, we'resupposed to demand that our
children clean their toys, andclean their space and take care
of it. Right. All of us havebeen there. And in some sort of
iteration, and for some of us,it comes out as clean your room
or else right. And for others,it comes out as Oh, honey,
please clean your room, will youplease clean your room, and then

(23:02):
there's a spectrum in between,right. And it's all very
frustrating. And it becomes apower struggle, and it becomes
something that is unnecessary.
And so I what I say is okay, soyou're you're facing your child,
or your children who havecreated a mess, and you're
demanding that they clean uptheir mess, then your room is a

(23:24):
mess. Really, your room is amess. So the question is, do you
really care about organizationand cleanliness? Do you really
care about that. And then, ifyou do rent, beautiful, then may
this be a shared value of yourfamily that you have chosen to

(23:46):
cooperate. And then it is everysingle member of the family has
responsibility to uphold thisvalue.
And if not, stop caring aboutthe mess and hire housekeeper
two days before your mom comesto visit and call it a day. I
mean, so I just as an example ofhow much pressure we put on

(24:10):
ourselves all the time, becauseof the story that we were told
and tell ourselves when instead,imagine how much more relaxing
and peaceful and flowing lifecould be if we only did what we
truly believe, without caringabout the rest. Because the rest

(24:33):
is just groupthink and pressureand psychology. And it's not
really true. So, I talked toparents about that about
shifting closer to our knowingand considering what our values
are and considering holding avalues based parenthood as

(24:53):
opposed to one that has thepower struggle because then when
you have a value of cleanlinessor an organization
Sustainability, which is myiteration of that in our family,
our value is we really careabout sustainability about the
future of our world, and aboutreusing and trying to be
resourceful. And so we went tothe care for our things so that
they're beautiful enough to giveto our grandchildren one day. So

(25:17):
how can we work as a team totake care of our things, and
until we do take care of ourthings, these things are close
to us, right, the toys are closeto us until we care for them.
And everything else is in thehome. And I say to my daughter,
I have to take care of thekitchen utensils and cooking
supplies in the same way that itwas your responsibility to take
care of your toys, because we'rein it together. And these are

(25:40):
the comments and we all have aright to them, we also have a
responsibility to uphold themfrom our values. So then it
becomes instead of clean yourroom, or else and the power
struggle, and then no and thisand this and that. It turns into
our family. We care aboutsustainability. So how can we do
this together? And then it takesyou out of the power circle as

(26:00):
well. So I hope that answeredyour question. That is how I get
that.

Lauren (26:05):
That's interesting.
Yeah. It's really interestinghearing you describe that,
because, um, I have experienceda variety of situations with
parents and parenting clientsand my own situations with my
children. And so I do have aquestion for you. So let's say
you know, you're you're takingthe power struggle out, you're
going with, we all share thisvalue. What if you have a child

(26:27):
who says to you, I don't sharethat value? Actually, I don't
agree with that value. I don'tvalue what you value mom. And
you're forcing me to obey whatyou're valuing? How is that any
different than the paradigm thatwe're trying to shift?

Sivanne (26:47):
Thank you for that question. So the thing I would
say, I would ask that parent is,who chose the values? And how
did you choose the values? Andhow did you enter those values.
And I have a process that I workthrough with my parents and
clients to unearth their valuesfrom a non biased perspective,

(27:08):
and then also co create withtheir children. And I encourage
parents to do this work withtheir children as young as two
and also revisit what thefamily's values top three values
are about every six months,because it does Evan flow and
change. It's not supposed to beused as a weapon. It's supposed

(27:28):
to be used as an empowering,shared experience and
empowerment.

Amy (27:33):
Yeah, I love that so much.
And I'm reflecting on myself asa parent and I value
cleanliness, or I shouldprobably say tidiness, right,
like and I, I even have data tosupport my value that humans
thrive, where there's, you know,cleared off spaces and clutter
in the environment can createinner clutter, so I have all
this validation. And yet, Ihaven't really co created that

(27:56):
with my kids. So I think I will,I will take, I'm going to take
your, your provocation, as as anopportunity for deeper
conversation with my kids aroundour values as a family. I love
that.

Lauren (28:13):
Yeah. The other thing I want to name here is creating
space creating and allowingliminal space. And I think that
has so much value, it has had somuch value for me, because my
journey could be described aswhen I was young, I felt like

(28:34):
there was very little to nospace for me to explore myself,
and for my authentic self toemerge. And so it just stayed
hidden and confined andconstricted. And the phases for
me like the D schooling that Imentioned earlier, or, you know,

(28:57):
taking space, taking a breakfrom things to create space, for
authenticity to arise, has beena huge value to me has been
something that's been veryhelpful to me. And one example.
So I had this struggle with oneof my children around food, I
value healthy food, and Iadvocate for eating mostly

(29:20):
healthy food with some humanitymixed in some, some, you know,
not like, I didn't want to cocreate, like, delicious treats
are evil, because I see thatdanger, right? Like they're,
they're delicious. There's areason why, like, we love sugar

(29:40):
and how good it tastes. And it'slike a chemical for our brains.
And, you know, back back a longtime ago, we needed that
motivation to go hunt and gatherfor these things that our bodies
needed, right? Like if we wentall the way back to the kind of
natural order of things thatdrive for sugar. Makes sense and

(30:00):
has a purpose. But in ourcurrent world, where it's all so
processed and overly available,and you know, it's it can be
problematic. And so I justunconsciously assumed that my
children were fully on boardwith all of my thoughts and
opinions about the value ofhealthy food. And then I had a
child say to me, what if I don'twant to be healthy? What if I
don't want to? What if I say noto that, and I would rather be

(30:24):
unhealthy. So stop, because Iwould say things like, this is
healthy, let's pick a healthychoice healthy, healthy, what is
you know, and I also wanted togive my children some freedom
around food, as well, like somechoice in what they ate not you
eat this or you go hungry, morelike, you know, here's a few
choices. And so anyway, all ofthis to say, what ended up

(30:46):
happening for me in my familywas I took a step back, and I
said, Okay, what if you don'twant to be healthy? What if I
really create space to hear youand allow that and I said, Okay,
I'm going to stop assuming, I amstill going to educate, I am
still going to advocate, but Iam going to honor your autonomy.

(31:09):
And I'm going to create spacefor you to make, quote,
unhealthy choices. And I'm gonnaallow some of that, and my
journey with this particularchild did include a period of
time where I was a littleuncomfortable with some of the
choices that were being made.
And I allowed space for that,and I kept sharing information.

(31:30):
And, and it has ultimately, sothe current state of affairs in
my house is, this child hasactually moved into their own
their own value of health, andthey're like, it's their own,
but they actually do valuehealth and their body feeling

(31:52):
good and, and giving their bodywhat it actually needs. And now
they feel empowered, they feellike they had the space to
choose not that. And I'mthinking of something you've
said before, Amy, which is, ifthere's a choice, then I'm free.
Like, if I could choose notthis, then if I choose it, I'm

(32:15):
freely choosing it. But if Ican't, if I don't have access to
not this, and I'm just thinkingabout that in terms of the messy
room, too, because I actually, Igrew up with a very messy room.
I was the kid with stuff allover the floor in my bedroom.
And you know, my mom didn't likeit. And I don't have that. I'm

(32:38):
not having that experience withmy kids. Like they keep their
room. I've I've empowered themwith their rooms, because I, you
know, sometimes we unconsciouslyparent, our child self instead
of the actual children that wehave. Yeah, so I was
unconsciously I wasunconsciously parenting, my
child self. So my policy with mychildren's bedrooms has always

(33:02):
been that's your space, you'rein charge of that. And if I
don't like how it looks, I mightask you to shut the door. But
I'm not gonna shame you or tryto control it, because I grew up
with that. And I didn't like it.
So I've given them full, likeautonomy over their rooms. And I
do offer a system like if youwant help cleaning or
rearranging your room, I amavailable to you, but it's your

(33:24):
room. It's your space, and theyactually keep them way better
than I did. I've never had thatstruggle, but I did have the
third one and I created spacefor Okay, what if you don't want
to be? Maybe I should stopassuming. So all that to say
like this, this journey, I thinkit can take so many forms.

(33:44):
Right. And there's there's avalue to liminal space and in
between and, you know, I thinkone of the fears I encounter
with parents is if I let mychild make unhealthy food
choices, when they're nine for amonth, I've ruined them. I have
failed parenting.

Sivanne (34:07):
That line ruins them.
Because x Yeah, yeah. That line?
Yes. I don't know, everybody whois listening did not see me nod
for the last 10 minutes, notenthusiastically. Because
everything you're saying is justso true to me. Yeah, it really
speaks to my soul. That is alsothat's the bulk of the work that

(34:29):
I do with parents is this ideaof freeing ourselves from the
expectation of control, andallowing ourselves our children
ourselves to see and witness ourchildren as separate entities
from ourselves separateexperience separate lives and I
tried to use that approach inevery single parenting garden.

(34:54):
Like you said, it's your room.
It's your space. I say it's yourbody. I say it's your mother.
It's your schooling experience,etc. Right? So, for us as
parents, I have almost nothingto add, except perhaps that one
of the things that we can reallybe conscious about is, what are
we modeling in our own lives?

(35:17):
Right? What are they witnessing?
That's our own truth. And thatis really the only truth we can
control. Because we can demandmanipulate, give ultimatums,
Nag, go into the power struggle,and anything else that haven't
mentioned. And at the end of theday, we're not going to succeed.
In shifting our children'struth, we all know that right?

(35:40):
They say from, from the world ofaddiction, that people are not
willing to help themselves,until they have some sort of
switch about themselves, right,they're not willing to get help
until they seek it out. So it'sthe same thing. I think, with
everything, any of ourexpectations is parent around
our kids. We're not going tocreate healthy eaters, or

(36:02):
successful academics orachievers or whatever it is that
is on your agenda. Throughdemanding it I agree with you,
Lauren, that the only way to doit is through giving that
liminal space of freedom andchoice. As you said, Amy so
eloquently explains, andmodeling our own truth

(36:25):
ourselves. And that's the onlything we can do. Which is why
parents come to me asking forhelp with the tantrum or asking
for help with my child isfalling behind it. I don't know
what to do. And they come out ofthe experience with me with Oh,
it was all about my shift. Oh, Ididn't realize how much work I

(36:45):
deserved to lean into for.
Right? Yes, then it shiftseverything else, right. Because
when you suddenly are demandingand nagging and with all of this
anxiety around something, theproblem goes away, doesn't it?

Lauren (37:07):
Am I my question is I'm curious, because you said
earlier that you were discerningwhat to choose for your daughter
for kindergarten. And if youwere following your soul, you
might choose this. And also,there are other reasons to
choose this. I'm wondering ifthat was a co created choice
with her? I did you made thatchoice with her? And how that

(37:32):
how, like, if you could sharethat process?

Sivanne (37:35):
Yes, we did. We co created with her and, and it's
very similar to what youdescribed with the food Lauren,
we gave her we tried to explainto her truly what all the
options meant. And she visitedeach of the spaces as best we
could in a COVID world where youcan't really tour as fully as
you want to. And I tried to giveher a picture of what her day

(37:59):
would look and feel like in eachof those spaces, and talk
through the pros and cons ofeach with her as well as I could
with a four year old, an almostfive year old brain. And I just
kept checking with her. And Ikept and I told her that we're
ultimately going to make thedecision for me and my and her

(38:20):
father, right. We want to hearher feedback. And we want to see
how it feels in her body. And sowe kept checking in. And we we
really did go back and forth formany, many reasons. And we
landed on the public space, alsovery much because of her. So

(38:45):
we'll see how it goes. And thisis the other thing when parents
are making decisions. It seemsto me that we we think things
are so bloated and finite, andblack and white. And ultimately,
at the end of the day, myhusband and I said to ourselves,
well, if it doesn't work out inaround November, we could we
have the choice to unenroll her.
Yeah, the world isn't going toshatter. Right? It does not have

(39:08):
to be some finite set in stone.
Like you've made your choice nowlive with it kind of speak I
don't I don't really subscribeto that approach. I do subscribe
to the approach of your choice,make it work. But then if it
doesn't work, we get to chooseanother way. So that also helped

(39:31):
us make a decision.

Amy (39:34):
That's beautiful. I am we're back sort of in the
conversation of education. And Iwant to ask a question of both
of you actually. That helps usto understand the value of play

(39:54):
in learning and I just want totouch back on something we
talked About earlier in theinterview first, because we're
at this amazing time forhumanity, where we're seeing all
of these limiting beliefs andtearing them down. And one of
them is that work is work,right? And you're proposing that

(40:16):
play is the work of childhood.
And we're also proposing, whatif work could feel like play?
What if we don't actually needto prepare our children for a
future in which work feels hardand difficult and, and somehow
self sacrificing and it couldfeel in that enlivening and
lighting us up? And so what ifit is that we want our children

(40:39):
to feel that way through theirlearning journey because that's
essentially teaching them awayor allowing a way of being that
I think arises naturally in usas humans, but we've been
schooling and, and culture andlet's face it, like
historically, life, and jobopportunities are ways of making
a living or putting food in ourmouths and a roof over our head.

(41:02):
The opportunities and prospectsrewind the clock 100 years
weren't what they are today. Soin humanity's evolving, the
world is changing what'spossible, our eyes are being
open to it. And I would love itif you could each as educators
speak to how play helps us tolearn how play can be almost

(41:22):
even like if you could make acase for play as a as the way of
learning

Lauren (41:31):
I feel like I want to see if I can go first here and
then ask soupon I don't think Isaid it. Right. See, Vaughn. Is
that it? See?

Sivanne (41:41):
See, you can play

Lauren (41:46):
I can play with it. Part of me I'm like acknowledging I'm
like I want I want to say itright but my wiring my
programming is having me put theemphasis somewhere else. I don't
know why. And so anyway, I kindof want to go first because I
feel like I'm kind of an exampleof no feet in trying to shift to
one foot in and then I want toturn it over to see Ron see font

(42:09):
divine wiring, I'm so sorry.
I'm, I'm trying and I'm playingand I have so an old version of
me would have stopped sayingyour name because I can't do it
right. And so that's what mostpeople do. That's what I
learned. So when I my my teachertraining program that I did

(42:31):
included, I'm talking about highachieving avoiders, so children
who learn to own only do thethings that they can do well
immediately and avoid the restright? Oh,

Amy (42:48):
totally named me. Yeah, all

Lauren (42:50):
three of us all three.
We're all raising our hands andthat's why I'm saying your name
wrong. See Bonn. I keep sayingit. However, my brain is I'm
trying and it's becoming betterand better. Is it getting
better? Yes, keep on I'm tryingto emphasize because I want to
impress. Oh, amazing. See? AndI'm like, No way impossible. I'm
still doing it wrong. Anyway, it

Sivanne (43:12):
was funny though. Also, I am also used to not
pronouncing My name as well aspeople in Israel. I lived in a
country for several years whereeveryone pronounce my own name
better than I did.

Lauren (43:25):
That's, that's the story of my last name. But I'll I'll
save that story for another timebecause I don't want to we have
limited time. I don't pronouncemy name correctly. I'm Italian.
My last name is Italian. If yougo to Italy,

Amy (43:38):
they now you have to say

Lauren (43:42):
right so my last name.
We we I grew up here in heremeaning in the United States
pronouncing it colonies whichdoesn't make any sense at all.
In Italian it's something likecalling an AZ but I can't even
say it correctly. In Italian I'mgetting it's called an AZ g Li
is like a ye sound Cali an AZthat's the best I can do. But

(44:05):
I'm someone else could do itbetter if they were a native
Italian speaker. So I feel youon that. But um, with Amy's
question I what was coming upfor me in response to Amy's
question was how I had been soconditioned to believe that clay
and work were separate thingsthat could not coexist together.

(44:30):
So even my attempt which wasprogress for me, so when I was
sharing earlier, that I startedfun Fridays in my high school
English class. And we had fun onpurpose, too, to intentionally
like put action behind my beliefthat fun matters and is worthy

(44:55):
of our time and Attention. But Istill had Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday that werenot fun. And then on Friday, we
got to have fun. Did you feel

Amy (45:07):
there was an earning earning of the fun even, like,
like fun has to be earned?

Lauren (45:12):
Right? Right. Well, not only that, but I felt like, like
if I had been like, we're gonnastart having fun every day,
we're gonna do this in a waythat's fun. I that was that was
outside, like in teachers. Ididn't have the scaffolding to
get there. Right. Right. And soI just wanted to kind of
highlight myself as because my Istarted out with schools not

(45:34):
supposed to be fun and the inthe high school that I taught
in, like, the teachers, theadministrators, if, if they
heard laughter in a classroom,it was like, what's that teacher
doing or not doing? Why islaughter happening? Why is it
loud in there right now? Who's,who's wrong? Are the students
bad? Is the teacher bad? They'reall bad. They're laughing, you

(45:58):
know? And, um, you know, so forme, I was like, Robin Hood, I
was like, a revolutionary going,we're gonna have fun Fridays,
and we're gonna have them onpurpose. And towards the end of
my time there, I didn't evenshut my door. I was like, You
know what, y'all can hear this?
And guess what? I think it'sgood. You know, but still,
that's just, that's that attemptto, to shift or to change

(46:21):
without realizing how stuck inthe old paradigm I still was. So
I wanted to name that. And thenI want to turn it over to C.
Vaughn.

Sivanne (46:36):
Thank you. I love that.
I love that so much. Yes, I yes,yes. To all of that, that we
grow up, we grew up in thisparadigm of thinking of a good
bad binary, right? We all thinkthat we have to be serious and
responsible. And this, there'sonly one way to do it. And if
you don't do it, you're failing.

(46:56):
And you all have that. And weall just laughed about being
overachievers and perfectionistsand, and only focusing on what
we were successful in so that wecould continue to feel that
success. And so what I wouldlike to propose, and again,
it's, it's on, it's the onus ofthe grownups in the room to do
the work because children arenaturally fun. Children

(47:19):
naturally play and so why wouldwe stop them? Right? from doing
what they naturally do? We don'tstop them from what their bodies
need to do in order to learn towalk. So why do we stop them
from what their bodies naturallydo? And their brains naturally
do in order to learn to read orwrite or manipulate numbers,

(47:39):
etc? Right? It just seems absurdto me. It's like, You're so
cute. And you know, you may notdo the math that way. Just make
any sense to me. So, right? YetI did come from that world,
right? I came from that sameparadigm. And, oh, I think that

(48:01):
the first step is starting tomake no assumptions. That's the
first step. We must stop makingassumptions about our children,
about what their actions or ouractions mean. And the second
piece is also not takinganything so seriously, or

(48:24):
personally. Because at the endof the day, it's not about us.
We've done it already. We'realready grown up,
hypothetically. their turn.
Right? it's their turn. So whyare we forcing them to either
relive something that we thinkwe failed in? And, you know,
they're like our way of makingit right? That's not fair. or

(48:45):
doing something completelydifferent? Because I was raised
this way. And I hit it. And soI'm going to do it this way.
Right? Why are we so binary? Andso extreme? at any of the polls?
Why can't we just be in themiddle, which is the truth,
which is Messier, but it is morereal. So what I like to say,

(49:08):
other than it is their body, itis their life it is their brain
is also let's throw out threedefinitions and beliefs. Let's
throw out there or just proposethat there's no such thing as
failure. There's no such thingas success. And there's no such

(49:28):
thing as there's no such thing.
There's no such thing asfailure. Failure is just
learning and growing. And if wedid not fail or not do things
perfectly, we would never learnor change. There's no such thing
as perfection. Because that isan ideal that I mean, look at

(49:53):
Simone Biles and everything thatshe experienced this last
Olympics after being the mostdecorated A gold medalist in
gymnastics or in the world,right and, and and then choosing
mindfully choosing to step offof that track in order to care
for herself, right. And thenthere's no such thing as

(50:14):
success. And what I want to sayhere with this nuance, and this
is where I think it goes intothis conversation around
education, especially this, thisidea that we for some reason,
another lie we tell ourselves isthat our kids need to have
straight A's in all things, notonly straight A's, but they also

(50:34):
have to be in you know, highachievers in five other amazing
clubs, right, and they have tohave this incredible resume in
Manhattan where I came from,before I became a parent, there
were legit parents, who wouldcreate resumes for their future
children in utero, in order toget into this elite, private

(50:58):
preschool, so that they couldnot ruin their chances of
getting into Harvard one day. Imean, that's how extreme it can
get, right? And so I say, what'swrong with the community
college, first of all? Andsecond of all, what do I really
do, I really, really, truly 100%truly need to have straight A's

(51:21):
and be a high achiever inphysics, calculus, history
literature, and write why I'mnot going to choose to be all of
them.
Right. And so and imagine also,I think of a little girl, me,
who was perfect and achieve highachieving, and everything but

(51:43):
math, and taught to feel soashamed and embarrassed, and
hide from that subject, andtherefore never learned to get
past that block. Fast forward towhen I was a teacher. And I was
like, Oh, God, I have to teachmath to these sweet little first

(52:04):
graders, because you have toteach every subject in
elementary school. Fast forwardto then I learned constructivist
math, which is what parents callthe new math, it's really not
new. But, and I started lovingteaching math. Fast forward to
now where I empower parents tosupport their children in the

(52:26):
way their brains work. Andthere's no such thing as someone
who's good or bad at math.
There's either the person whointuitively manipulates numbers,
or the person who gets a chanceto be shown how, all the myriad
of ways to manipulate numbers,right? Instead of this is how
you do it. And this is how youdo it. And if you don't know how
to do it this way, then that'sit, you failed, right? So it's

(52:46):
just so much more nuanced thanthat. So that's my roundabout
way of saying, if we only letour children follow their
passion, and their naturalintuition and instinct to play
and create a story, and imagineand Tinker and create, and draw,
and fantasize and roleplay, andtweak, and take things apart and

(53:10):
explore, those are all aspectsof play, then we would be
raising the next Einsteins, inmy opinion, we know that

Amy (53:23):
so much.

Sivanne (53:25):
Yeah. And the last thing I'll say about it is that
there's also a piece where Iwant I want to emphasize here
that when I say play basedlearning, and when I talk about
experiential inquiry basedlearning, I'm not saying and
when I talk about free play, andchildhood play, I don't mean,
let them do whatever you want,all the time, even though I also

(53:47):
believe in unschooling, but whatI mean is, watch, observe your
child, like a curious neutralobserver. Learn who they are,
not who you want them to be. Andthen gift them. Notice the word
I'm giving, not give them butgift them with very targeted,

(54:12):
provocation provocations forthem to perhaps explore. And
then watch them again and seewhere they go next. And that's
what our job is as an as theeducator or the parent. It is
not to be the all knowing isbeautiful, and observer and a

(54:34):
guide. Because we just we mightif you learn to, to observe and
witness your child, you mightthen know what the next natural
step that will delight them willbe. And then it gets to it will
naturally grow from there, mydaughter because of this, that's
the reason that she has a fouryear old who has written a

(54:56):
letter all by herself becauseshe was motivated to do that.
It's not because I pushed her tolearn to write early. And that's
just one example. Yeah, I

Lauren (55:05):
love what you were saying. I think I'll underscore
what you were saying about mathand offering children all of the
options and even being willingto question Do they need to
learn this math at all? Is thisan invitation or a requirement?
Because I heard somethingrecently, that went something

(55:25):
like, a true invitation does notinclude a consequence for saying
no. And if we invite ourchildren to math, we invite them
Do you want to learn math? Andif you have a child that says,
Yes, I find it interesting. Andthey play with it, and you
observe them like you weredescribing. And then you offer

(55:46):
them support, and even releasingourselves as parents from the, I
need to figure out which type ofmath they need most. And give
that one to them. Offer them allthe options, let them play with
them, see what see how thatgoes. Because there's value in
playing with the way that's notyour ideal way to write there

(56:08):
can be value in all of thesethings. So yeah, I love
everything that you're saying. Ilove the idea of the return to
play. I feel the most alive whenI'm playing because I play now I
play now. But not all the time.
I'm still recovering, right? I'mstill a recovering, non player.
And all I have access to playnow. Right? All of us are like I

(56:30):
have access to play, and I'm onthis path to re integrating. But
that's the original way it's areturn home, like returning home
to being alive is playing andlearning. I loved what you said
about what if there's no suchthing? And I'm saying what if
but you set you asserted, and Iagree with you. And my wiring is

(56:50):
like a what if there is so I saywhat? There's no such thing as
failure, no such thing asperfection. I know that one
perfection doesn't exist. Nofailure, no success. What if we
really let go of that? There'sjust learning and growing.
There's just learning andgrowing. That's what it all is.

(57:11):
And we can choose to be playfulabout it. We can return to
learning and growing in aplayful way. Yeah.

Amy (57:20):
So one of the things I've been thinking, as you guys have
been talking is, why don't wehave a world in which there's
play based schooling from thebeginning to the end, right,
like I had play based optionsfor my preschooler. But I'm
thinking like, why isn't there aplay based high school? Why

(57:40):
isn't there a place to middleschool and, and then as soon as
that comes out my mouth, it'slike, imagine trying to sell
that to people that idea, right?
Play based high school. I mean,they're just in my perfect
world, there'd be this, this,this educational journey from
start to finish where it allfeels like play is sort of
within it and underneath it, andthey're like, alive and lit up

(58:04):
about what they're doing. Andthen they get spit out the other
end. And it's like, Okay, nowlet's go find work that feels
like

Sivanne (58:10):
and I would say it's even hard to sell that to
elementary school teachers, Amy,it's crazy. And that is what I
do. I'm selling a paradigmshift. And that's why it's
really hard to explain. Parents.
Yeah, what I do, and I it's sofunny, I talked to them, and
they're like, I still don'tunderstand what you do. I still
don't understand. And I thinkit's because we have a blog. We
don't allow ourselves. Yeah. Andso there's this game in my house

(58:36):
that we play that I just go forserious people. No. Laughing no
smiling. No joking, you know,and I just keep going until we
burst into laughter. And it'sjust my way of combating that
wiring and that story, and it'sjust and I do it. Yeah, that's a
tantrum. By the way. I didn'tsay it. But oh, my goodness,

(58:59):
does play and laughter work whenwe're on the cusp of something
big.

Amy (59:09):
Yeah, well, I love the idea of how play can prepare children
for their lives. Because I'mactually arguing and I it's been
crystallizing through thisconversation that actually,
quote unquote, schooling ourkids in play, may prepare them
for will would certainly preparemy kids better for a future

(59:32):
filled with play, I think that Iwould, would would have, like so
much hope that they could findand one of the examples because
I think there's this anks thatwe parents have of, Okay, I have
to prepare my child for theworld. They have to be able to
get a job. And I have a lot ofpassion for the topic of
passion, which very muchoverlaps with the idea of play,

(59:52):
right? Like they're, they'redifferent sides of the same.
There's sort of different facetsof the same thing of like what
lights us up as humans, right?
So maybe instead of play basedhigh schools, we could say
passion based or passion lead.
And I've been doing thisresearch about what are the jobs
in which the humans have thehighest satisfaction for their

(01:00:13):
jobs like that they love whatthey do. And one of them that's
really high up there is videogame programming. And I have a
kid out of my four kids, thatthat's what he wants to do is
design video games. And so hisplay, and hopefully this comes
into his school as well, isdesigning and building

(01:00:34):
everything that he does in ourwe have every different like
size of Legos and differentconfigurable things, because all
he wants to do is put thingstogether. And I sometimes feel
like he's actually getting asmuch if not more out of his
experiences outside of theclassroom then than in the
traditional environment thathe's in, in school, you know,

(01:00:56):
where he's sort of like goingthrough and learning it the
traditional way. And, by theway, his favorite after school
activity that he would he gets,like, choked up if he can't do
it is code ninjas. He loves tocode now I could imagine, and I
only, by the way, have one outof four kids that that's like,
that's what I want to do in myspare time. And so that's what
he does. We encourage our otherkids to do other things that

(01:01:19):
feel like play to them. But youcould imagine, even parents
thinking, Okay, coding is thelanguage of the future, we need
to teach our kid coding, like,I'm not like three out of my
four kids don't care. But one ofthem is like, that's my second
language. That's the language Iwant to speak. And that's what I
want to do in my free time. So Idon't know I have this, this

(01:01:40):
sense that his play life,actually may as much or more
contribute to his future worklife. And I guess I wonder if
you guys see that in yourworlds?

Sivanne (01:01:52):
I agree. Yes, I think that it contributes more. As a
professional educator, I willsay that, and that's what I did
in the classrooms I, I found mychildren, my students passion on
earth did, I tried to find someshared interest, and we let kids
follow flow. And we didn'treally get to talk about this.
But I would do practice basedlearning and inquiry based

(01:02:14):
learning. And each child wouldget to decide how they were
going to learn, and how theywere going to share their
learning and what topic theywere going to choose to explore
around whatever topic we were,we were exploring. So one person
might choose to read. For hours,another person might choose to
watch, watch videos andinterview people and talk to
them. Another person mightchoose to be tinkering and

(01:02:37):
building and taking apart andthey're all learning the same
thing from a different angle. SoI would argue that what you're
saying, Amy, about the highestjob satisfaction, is actually
universal to it doesn't matterwhat job you choose. Yeah, it
matters how much freedom andchoice we have in order to
actually do the thing that we'remeant to do. And I just think

(01:02:58):
about my journey, and my husbandand other people I know, every
almost everyone I know has thestory of this is what I would
have done if and only if onlythey had let me Yeah, and mine
is I would have been a singersongwriter, for sure if I had
not been, I was, I was toldyou're amazing. And your music
is beautiful. And everyonedeserves to hear this. And the

(01:03:20):
moment I would get serious aboutI want to actually try this and
you know, bring my guitar toManhattan shut down, shut down,
right. My husband, he waspushed, pushed, pushed into
academia. And key. He's reallynaturally talented. He needs his
world of science. And then whenhe left the lab, he found his

(01:03:40):
truth and passion and is now inflow and so happy in life. And
so what if we could prevent thatentire journey of challenge and
muck and chaos for children?
Right by just starting with, dowhat you care about, do what you
love, and all the rest learn asmuch as you need to in order to
survive and function. Right likeI had a third grade. Students

(01:04:03):
parent be so super terrifiedthat she wasn't learning script
correctly. She was so anxiousabout the fact that she was
falling behind in cursive. And Ibring this up as a very extreme
example. But I said to her likeshe's going to be able to sign
her name on a check one day,right like I can't even think of

(01:04:25):
another reason to really need toknow cursive in our in our
world. Other than the story foldabout hope at night child used
to learn cursive This is a thingthat happens in schooling.
Right? So yes, and yes. And yesto everything you said Amy and
just Yes. How might we bringthat to the school system?

Amy (01:04:48):
Can I pile on because I I love how you've broadened it and
I want to pile on with what Ihad learned because actually, I
would hate for people to comeaway from this thinking like Oh,
the answer to job satisfactionis video. I'm sure none of you
guys are thinking that. But Ithink it's important that we
look at the DNA inside of thejobs, because there's themes

(01:05:12):
that make people have higher jobsatisfaction. And one of them I
think you pointed to, which iscontrol, how much control do I
have inside of my job? Gosh,that's a theme inside of
conscious parenting inside oflife inside of everything. And
another one is creativity.
Right. And so those are the twobiggest themes that people tend
to have the most jobsatisfaction when they have a

(01:05:35):
high degree of control and ahigh degree of creativity. And
when I was looking at thesestudies that show what what are
the actual jobs where peoplehave this, this type of job
satisfaction, there are thingslike they they? Well, surprise,
surprise me a little bit doctorsdo. But I think there's also

(01:05:57):
this theme about helping people.
And then, and coaches, musicproducers, actors, lyricist,
like creative types ofprofessions also do. So maybe
we'll do a whole show on likehow jobs relate to the humans
inside of them that that canbring well being to people. But

(01:06:21):
I would just I just wanted topoint back to the biggest themes
that this particular studypulled out was the ability to
have like creative expression,and and the level of like,
really control in your in yourwork.

Sivanne (01:06:33):
I would call it autonomy.

Lauren (01:06:35):
Absolute. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. autonomy, I was thinkingautonomy to you. And the other
thing I was thinking aboutlistening to both of you speak
just now was the number onedetermining factor for what
we're going to experience in thefuture is what we're
experiencing right now. And sowhen we put kids in school and
tell them, you're going to needthis, the future is hard. The

(01:06:55):
future you got to do stuff youdon't like and get used to it
now. We're co creating thatfuture. We're programming that
future with them in the presentmoment. And if instead we
release ourselves from that, andwe take this journey to say,
wait a second, that wasn't true,it wasn't true that that was an

(01:07:18):
inevitable outcome that we hadto prepare for. what was
actually happening was that wasthe CO created outcome that we
were being taught, and thenrepeating on autopilot. Yeah.
And we don't have to do that. Wedon't have to do that to our
children or for our children.
It's not in their best interest.
It's actually to their detrimentif we do that, just like it was

(01:07:41):
to ours, because each one of ushas that story of I would have
been a songwriter, I would havebeen an actress, I would have
been a this and I would havedone it with joy and through
play. And I would have releasedmyself from the pressure that
the only way to justify that isif you become the premier bla
bla bla and make tons of money.

Sivanne (01:08:02):
Ah, and it would have been hard. Yeah, it would have
it wouldn't have been easy.
Right?

Lauren (01:08:07):
Right. But it would have been full of joy. Yeah.

Sivanne (01:08:11):
And that gets to be okay. Is my point. Right? Why?
Scared? Yeah. Why are we scaredof the journey?

Lauren (01:08:17):
Beautiful? Yes, it's worth it in and of itself. It's
worth it in and of itself. Andthere's creative problem solving
to Amy's a genius, that creativeproblem solving. And so instead
of,

Amy (01:08:29):
I don't know if that's true, but I love it, I practice
it.

Lauren (01:08:34):
She's a genius at it.
She's just a little humble. Butum, anyway, you know, it's the
creative problem solving. It'show can you do what you love and
be filled with joy and sustainyourself? There are ways to do
that, because parents are soafraid you won't be able to make
a living. So yeah, I could go onand on. Love it. Love it, love
it, love it. Let's be joyful inthe present and make that the

(01:08:55):
legacy that we pass on.

Sivanne (01:08:59):
And let's be joyful in the muck, too. That's okay.

Lauren (01:09:04):
Totally, yeah. And the MCO we exist

Amy (01:09:07):
in the muck, I there was a moment earlier in the
conversation where you guys werelike this, we're all recovering
perfectionist, and I was like,and sometimes I'm just a
straight up perfectionist tolike,

Lauren (01:09:18):
recovering me exactly get

Amy (01:09:20):
depending on the moment, you know. So this conversation
has been so filled with joy forme. And I know for Lauren as
well. I would love if you couldshare where our listeners if
they're interested in more canfind you.

Sivanne (01:09:37):
Sure, I'd love to. And before I share how to find me, I
do want to emphasize that all ofus are are in this in our own
way, right? And we're all on ajourney. And I call myself the
joyous parent but that does notmean I'm happy all the time. It
just means that I'm aligned withmy knowing and I know how to

(01:09:57):
forgive myself and I know how toflow I know how to catch myself
when I'm in a story, right,which I think that that's what
we're talking about here withthis D wiring with a spiritual
re parenting with the shift intojoy. And yes, it's not hard to
do. In actuality, it's morescary to take the plunge. Right?

(01:10:19):
We stop ourselves a lot in ourminds. And so I would just want
to just offer this expansiveview of our definition of play,
and ask you, how did you use toplay as a child? And how did you
play in adolescence and in youryoung adulthood? And how would
you play now? How might you playnow if you had no blocks, right?

(01:10:39):
If time and money and stress andresponsibility were thrown out
of the window for 30 minutes?
How would you choose to spendyour time? And if the answer is
sleep, do it that's a that's aform of play in a way, sleeping
in the middle of the day. That'sluxurious, right? And if it's,
for me, I would want to say, tothink that I would then say I'm

(01:11:02):
going to play piano and writeanother song, because that's
always been something in my lifethat I've come back and back to
that my music has been a storyof my life in my journal. But I
don't have time for it as aparent, and I hardly go to it.
And then I say to myself, well,why don't you do it on your free
time. That's another piece of aburden, right? So we get to keep

(01:11:23):
it whimsical, we get to keep itlight, we get to just play in
our own way. And hopefully thenif we do that for ourselves, it
will be easier for us to do itfor our children. So I guess
those are my final thoughtsaround around that. And if you
want to learn more about how tojoin the Joyce journey, you can

(01:11:44):
find me everywhere as the joyousparent. And the joyous parent
calm is my website. My Instagramand Facebook are the joys
parent. And I also just starteda new Facebook group called
playful parents on the joyousjourney, playful parents on the
joyous journey. And I do fillyour cup Friday live, live

(01:12:07):
conversations every Friday onthat group. And on my Instagram,
you also will find a link to allof my resources, also on my
website to my store, and how tofind out about one on one
coaching with me and my servicesas an educational consultant, as
well as a parent coach. Soeverything is the joyous parent.

Amy (01:12:35):
Beautiful. Thank you for that. And thank you so much for
sharing yourself with us ontoday's show.

Sivanne (01:12:44):
Thank you for having me. It's been such a pleasure.
It's so fun to talk to fellowrecovering overachievers, and
recovering perfectionist, yousaid it. Yeah, exactly. I want
to say to parents out thereanyone who's listening who was
like, this sounds unrealisticand unattainable. I want you to

(01:13:08):
know, I'm in the muck too, allthe time. Yeah. And it's just
about a mindset shift. It trulyis. When we walk into the same
room the same month, the samescreaming kids in the corner and
person Parker that we'reresentful of, for some reason,
and the laundry pile and thedishes and the sink and all of

(01:13:28):
those things, right? We have achoice of how we're going to
react to it. Are we going toreact to it inside the story and
be led by our fear, anger orshame? Or are we going to
approach it from a playfulperspective? So if you want to
learn how to approach life,Parenthood, your children, their

(01:13:50):
their education, theirdevelopment, their growth, your
Parenthood, from the perspectiveof playfulness, than I am

Lauren (01:13:57):
amazing. Thank you so much.

Amy (01:14:01):
Thank you so much for listening today. We hope you
enjoyed this conversation. Andif you did, we have a favor to
ask if you have a moment andwould rate and review this
podcast. That's how morelisteners like you find
conversations like this. Thanksso much, and we wish you the

(01:14:22):
very best until we talk again.