October 26, 2021 • 52 mins
Have you ever felt two seemingly contradictory feelings or thoughts at the same time? It can be confusing, frustrating, and make us feel like we have to choose between those feelings or thoughts, but do we really have to fight against the contradictions? This week Amy and Lauren explore how we can live in - and love - the contradictions that are inherent to life and find beauty in both/and.
In this episode we talk about:
- Breaking down false dichotomies and holding space for all things.
- How are inner child and adult self can contradict each other and the benefit of learning to hold space for both.
- Why judgement can stand in the way of our truth.
- The seemingly contradictory nature of life and death.
- How embracing the contradictions inherent to life can help us find “clarity.”
Links so you can explore more:
We also invite you to email us if you have questions about something that we talked about or would like to share your journey with us. We'd love to hear from you at amy@soulpathparenting.com or lauren@soulpathparenting.com!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy (00:04):
We believe life can be a journey toward wholeness, toward
reconnecting with who we areauthentically meant to be. We
walk this path of growth anddiscovery with our children,
with our partners withinourselves. These are the stories
of what's possible. These arethe conversations that light the
(00:28):
way. Welcome to soul pathparenting. Hi, Lauren. Hi, Amy.
I am excited to be here today.
Actually excited is probablyjust the the word that I'm
choosing, because it'sappropriate, but I'm actually
feeling really calm and anchoredin my body. And I'm, I'm really
looking forward to thisconversation.
Lauren (00:52):
Me too. I'm excited. And that is my usual way of feeling
and showing up when we're aboutto record like I find recording
exciting. I'm like, I'm excited.
Let's record yay. And if I takea moment to assess myself beyond
that, because there is a littlebit of the kind of default mode
in my excitement, every time werecord, it's kind of similar to
(01:17):
how people talk about how areyou fine, fine, good, good. Just
write automatic. And so myautomatic is I'm excited. And
then if I pause and go, Whatelse am I? I'm excited. I'm
curious to see how thisconversation goes. Yeah, I am
feeling open. Curious, excited.
(01:41):
interested. So yeah,
Amy (01:44):
I love that. And I just want to say, today, we are
diving into a conversation aboutcontradictions and the
experience, what I am nowexperiencing as the beauty of
both and my both and experienceof life, which is something that
(02:08):
you have taught me. And I lovethat we started out actually
talking about how we're feelingin our bodies and as a state of
being because we just recentlydid a series on feelings and
feeling our way to wholeness.
And I was like a floating headbefore that series that had
(02:31):
this, this body had lots ofthoughts going through it on top
of this body that moved the headaround. And I'm very much in my
body in the sense that I youknow, I'm an avid, avid person I
love working out. So I avidexerciser was is even the word
for that. I'm athletic person.
(02:54):
Yeah, I'm no longer crossfitter.
But I avidly workout. And so Iused my body, but not in the
sense of feeling feelings, untilwe unpacked each of the
feelings. And as we prepared forthat series, The last episode
was about feeling calm andcontent. So kind of a high
(03:16):
pleasantness but lower energyfeeling. And before a recording
session earlier in the day, Ihad dropped off my four year old
at preschool. And I got in thecar and I sat in the driver's
seat. And I thought, oh, let'sjust check in and see how I'm
feeling today because we'regoing to be recording this. And
(03:37):
I realized, yes, I feel present,and calm and grounded, like
anchored in my body. And I feelanxious, I feel this like
tightness in my stomach. Andwait a minute, can I be these
(03:58):
two things at once? Can I becalm and content and anxious at
the same time? Obviously, we diddifferent shows on those states
of being. But what I realized inthat moment is that to think we
have to choose is actuallythat's leading us out of
ourselves and away from our realhuman experience. And this is
(04:21):
something that that you havetaught me and that has really
enriched my life and enhanced mylife is stopping that forced
choice. You know, life isn'tjust like true false ABC
multiple choice that we can havelots of things happening at
once. And so I just I love andappreciate that. And that's what
(04:43):
we're going to talk about today.
And I wonder how you mightintroduce this idea.
Lauren (04:52):
I love your story about noticing and feeling the calm
anchored gnus throughout most ofyour physical body. And the
presence of anxiety in yourstomach tension entered a
different energy in one locationin your body while the rest of
your body was feeling somethingelse. I love that example. I
(05:13):
love that story. I love both.
And I love the idea ofpermission to be with what is
and openness to it possiblybeing multiple, seemingly
contradictory things at once,because sometimes that is what
is. And one of the things youand I talked about in
(05:35):
preparation for this episode wasthe possibility that as human
brains develop, that youngchildren naturally go through a
what is it? Phase, they startnaming things, what is dog cow
Moo? You know, that's the soundthat dogs make. They start
(05:57):
naming things, they startconnecting, what is a naming and
categorizing. And we could talkabout labeling, maybe we'll get
into that more later. And thenthey can progress to
categorizing. Which is it? Is itthis? Or is it that, and there
is a natural developmental phaseof dualistic thinking black or
(06:20):
white thinking it's this, it'snot that it's a cow, it's not a
dog, it's, you know, whateverthe case may be. And if we get
stuck there, which some of us doto some degree, or if we
continue to lean too heavily onthat, throughout adolescence and
young adulthood and maturity, wewill find ourselves limiting
(06:44):
ourselves in ways that Eclipsepart of our reality. So while a
toddler can say cow, not dog,and that is true, we're being
with what is it's a cow, it'snot a dog. For you know, a
mature adult person to lookinside themselves and notice
(07:04):
calm relaxation, and like apocket of anxiety and go, Oh
crap, which is it? Is it a cow?
Or is it a dog? Do I have topick? You know, like, do I have
to choose? Which one? Can I beboth these things at once? And
my answer is, yes, we can. Yes,you can. You can you can be both
(07:25):
at once. And I usually try tocreate space for options, you
know, not always or neversometimes we're multiple things.
Sometimes we're one thing andit's radiating through our
entire bodies. Sometimes we'remultiple things. And I have a
(07:45):
story to share about me lastnight, that includes me feeling
that tension of fighting withmyself, and then finally
relaxing into Oh, I can be boththings at once. And I know you
have some stories, too. Butyeah, I think I would just I
think I would set it up in termsof the brain development phases.
(08:10):
The either or what is it? Whichis it categorizing? And then if
we move beyond that, and if wesupport I love how you
mentioned, like, true false ormultiple choice. You know, I
taught high school. And by thatpoint, a lot of multiple choice
questions, even some true falsequestions were arguable. They
(08:30):
weren't so clear cut, theyweren't so absolute. They were
influenced by the person whomade the test. They were, you
know, there's, we could probablythink of examples, right. Now,
if we wanted to have a truefalse that really is a true
false, but then we couldprobably nuance it even my, you
know, silly, random grabbing outof thin air dog cow example?
(08:53):
Well, they're both mammals.
Well, they both walk on fourlegs, well, they, you know, it's
like dog, not a cow, cow, not adog. Well, how are they similar?
And how are they different? Andso, you know, if you do a true
false question, and you havehigh school students who have
access to the range ofintellectual ability to nuance
and challenge things, Idefinitely spent some time
(09:15):
discussing and dialoguing withstudents about test questions
that, you know, I had been giventhat were part of the curriculum
that I had, and that they werechallenging. And sometimes I'd
be like, you have an excellentpoint. And so you know, just all
of that to say, the, what wegain access to in maturity if
we're able to hold the tensionof contradiction and complexity
(09:42):
and not force ourselves to pickeither or, but rather have
access to the both and I thinkit opens up a lot of
possibilities. And I know welove talking about what's
possible,
Amy (09:53):
so that's right. Yeah, I think I used to live inside of
this False binary, where. So oneof the false binaries I had
would be anger versusacceptance. I either can be
(10:16):
angry about it, or I can acceptit. And I have actually
experienced that I can acceptthings and be angry about them
at the same time. Have you everhad that experience? It was
really confusing to me. And thenI remembered this false
dichotomy and this teaching ofyou can hold space for all the
(10:38):
things. Have you experiencedthat before?
Lauren (10:41):
Absolutely, yes. So many times, and my, you know, I used
to impose so many false binarieson myself. And, and I think I
was taught to do that to somedegree. And I think it also can
be getting stuck in thatdevelopmental phase to some
degree, like, I think thetransition from the necessary
(11:04):
developmental stage of you know,black or white thinking has to
be facilitated maybe, or it canbe hindered or anyway, but yes,
my answer is yes. Because oldme, if old me had a moment of
awareness that I was bothaccepting such and such reality
and also angry about it. If oldme had that awareness, I would
(11:28):
start an internal argument whilewhich is it your you either
accept it, and you stopcomplaining about it, and you
stop being you can't? You can'tbe angry and accept it? So
you're not accepting it? Oh,wait, you are accepting it, then
why is this anger? You know,like, yeah, I would be the
internal dialogue. And then, soSo then, I'm angry. I'm also
(11:51):
weirdly feeling some acceptancefor what is outside of myself,
but zero acceptance for what isinside of myself. So yeah,
angry, accepting, not accepting,like it's, it's, it's a circus.
So. But if I can relax into it,I think this is making me want
to share my story from lastnight,
Amy (12:12):
I was having the same sorry, yes.
Lauren (12:14):
So this happened to me last night. Yesterday, I had a
coaching call with a client inwhich the client shared that
they had been disappointed inthe previous session that we had
had, they had felt like in ourprevious session, in previous
(12:37):
conversation that I had failedto hold space for their reality,
hear them, see them, validatethem. And they were bringing
this to my attention. And soyesterday, I was on the
receiving end of that feedback.
And, for one, I was sodisappointed to hear that
(12:58):
because I tried to hold spacefor all the possibilities, and
validate people and hear themand see them. That's part of
what I tried to do. So in theprevious session, I had been
trying to do that. And then Ilearned I had failed. And I had
basically done the opposite. Ihad unknowingly unconsciously in
the way I was speaking about thetopic eclipsed this person's
(13:19):
reality. That's how it hadlanded. That's how it had been
experienced. And so, so I'm inthe session yesterday. And
during this session, I'm like,thank you for bringing this up.
This is such a wonderful exampleof advocating for yourself, of
challenging the lens throughwith through which someone is
(13:41):
looking at you like wonderful, Iwill take in that feedback. I
hear you now, is this whatyou're saying now, you know, I
tried to receive it well, andto, you know, show up in the
session, the way that I'mtrained to show up in a
situation like that, and the waythat I want to show up in a
situation like that. And so thesession ended, and I went
(14:03):
through the rest of my evening,and then I'm laying in bed last
night, and it's just eating atme, like I have these conflicted
feelings going on inside me. Andthe argument starts and I'm, I'm
feeling vulnerable, scared. Myinner child's coping mechanism
of people pleasing and gettingthings right in order to feel
(14:27):
safe, was activated because Ihad gotten it wrong. And I did
not feel safe. You know, part ofme was like, Why did I choose
this line of work? Why am Iopening myself up to these kinds
of experiences when it terrifiesmy inner child and it's so
uncomfortable? I don't like howI'm feeling right now. This
(14:48):
feels less terrible. I don'twant to feel this go away. You
know, like that's happeninginside me. And there's this
other strong, loving,compassionate voice that lives
in me all the time. Now. Thatwas like, talking me through the
experience. Like this is reallygreat. Don't forget that you co
created the level of safety withthis person for them to give you
(15:12):
this kind of feedback. And youreceived it well. And then of
course, I'm arguing internallywith myself and like, Yeah,
well, on the surface, I receivedit well, but inside my inner
child was like, No way, I don'twant to receive this. So yeah,
multiple things are happening atonce. And to try to distill this
down to what we're talkingabout, today, I'm laying in bed,
(15:34):
struggling to fall asleep,realizing I feel afraid,
uncomfortable, disappointed, Idon't want this. And at the same
time, there's this other side ofme that feels like, this is the
work Lauren, this is how youbuild resilience. This is what
you your old survival patternswould seek to avoid. But now
(15:56):
you're facing it, and you're init. And in a few days, you'll
probably just be so grateful forthis conversation, because it's
such a great reminder to youthat you're human, and you don't
always see and hear peoplecorrectly. And if you can
receive that feedback and makeadjustments, like that's what
(16:16):
this is all about. And so I havethis all going on inside me. And
I just, I was feeling thatpressure to pick one like, okay,
either. I'm upset about this,and I hate my job, and I'm
quitting this job, but I'mgetting it I'm gonna be like,
I'm gonna go be a waitress. Andthen when people's food is
wrong, I'm blaming the kitchen.
(16:37):
I'm like, Look, it's not me. Itwas the kitchens fault. You
know, I don't want to be soaccountable. Because I am the
coach. I there was nobody for meto blame. There was nowhere to
hide. You know, it was there wasno like, Oh, you thought I
wasn't seeing you. Actually, thecook messed up. Like there
wasn't me. That wasn't me.
Because guess what I see peopleclearly that's what I do. That's
(17:00):
how I be safe.
Amy (17:06):
Yeah, just
Lauren (17:07):
feeling it just feeling it and. And so I finally was
able to so at first I'm in thethick of it, like, which is it?
You got to be grateful shut,like literally almost as if if I
were describing it internally,I'm like shoving my feelings to
one side. And then they'reresisting. They're like, No,
we're still upset and thenshoving them to the other side.
(17:28):
And then finally, I did some ofmy breathing exercises. And I
said to myself, it's okay, thatyou feel upset right now. And
it's okay that you also feelgrateful for this right now. And
it's okay that you feel like youshould quote should I always
know when that word shows up,I'm like, Oh, there you are,
again, that you should feelpurely grateful or purely upset.
(17:53):
But you don't, you feel both.
And it's okay. And I finally wasable to like breathe and relax
and go to sleep.
Amy (18:00):
It's such a beautiful example of a couple of different
things. One is, when we get inthis battle between different
thoughts, our body can actuallyour breathing and actually going
out of the thoughts and into thefeelings in the body. That is
(18:20):
sometimes the only place becauseI so want to settle that debate
and pick the winner of theargument. And it's reminding me
to your story feels like a thingthat happens to me sometimes,
which is that my inner child andmy, like adult self, my Higher
Self are in an argument. And I'mtrying to I want the higher self
(18:45):
to win the argument. And yet theinner child has a lot of really
valid points based on what I hadto do to survive as a child. And
as we know, and like so this isanother inclination that I have
that over the couple of years ofthis podcast I've been becoming
aware of, but I have thisinclination to want to sort of
(19:06):
kill off the negative thing.
Right? So I resist it. I'm like,inner child, shut the up. Like
you're wrong. And and we're notchoosing you, but that just
makes the inner child go, oh, Ican't just talk I have to yell
now. Okay. And so it's justcontinues on and sometimes we
can just hold space for all ofthe voices.
Lauren (19:34):
Yeah, well in another thing it makes me think about
is, you know how I've struggledwith. The term that I am used to
using is imposter syndrome. ButI read something recently that
was challenging that term. Andyou know, we use words to try to
describe things and thensometimes they're helpful and
(19:56):
sometimes they need to benuanced or you know, Sometimes
they're incomplete. But for me,one of the paradoxes I'm growing
my capacity to hold, is the ideathat I can show up as a coach
and a guide for people and I cando really amazing work
(20:21):
sometimes. And then sometimes Imess it up and I get it wrong.
And that doesn't negate the factthat I'm still a quote, good
coach, which this could segue usinto quote, good and bad. Good.
Yeah. Right. Like the good badjudgments, because that's
another place where we feel thispush pull this which is, am I
good? Or am I bad? Am I good atwhat I do? Or bad at what I do?
(20:44):
Because in the session that thisclient was giving me feedback
about yesterday, in that if wesnapshot that moment,
objectively speaking, I wasquite bad at what I am supposed
to do. In that moment, I did theopposite. I am supposed to, you
know, help my clients feel seen,heard understood, reflect their
(21:05):
truth back to them, help themsee it even more clearly
understand themselves better.
And I did the opposite. I'vemessed up, they felt less like
not seen not heard, notunderstood. So I'm like, Oh, no.
Does that mean I'm a bad coach?
I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna go bea waitress. That's it. You know?
Whereas Yeah, if I look at theother times that I've gotten,
(21:25):
quote, positive feedback I'vehad many clients say, Wow, the
way you reflected that back tome helped me understand myself
better. I feel like you reallyunderstood what I was saying.
And you offered me a reframe, oran insight that helped me Well,
that's what I want to hear,right? And then I'm like, ooh,
check the box. Good. I'm good.
I'm good. I did it. I'm good,you know? And what's the
(21:46):
reality? I'm both sometimes I'mreally good at what I do.
Sometimes. I'm bad at it. Andthey're both true.
Amy (21:56):
Yeah, and they're both judgments. And so one of the
interesting things to me aboutgood and bad, to have my four
kids, two of them are six andfour years old. And they're very
much in this good, badconversation. And I love my
(22:21):
favorite thing, because I'm sortof aware now have the words good
and bad in my vocabulary. And myfavorite thing to do, when I
find myself, either hearing orusing good or bad is to look for
other words to describe what ishappening. So whereas good and
battered judgment, it's like,oh, are there other adjectives
(22:44):
or descriptors that I could use?
Because good and bad, actually,we could say and that's this is
perfect for this conversationare true and untrue. Right? Like
there's, they're just aninterpretation of a person who's
telling a story about a thing.
And so really, what's present iswe could say, well, you know,
(23:07):
it's not that Lauren is a badtherapist. In that moment, that
person didn't feel seen in theway she wanted to feel seen.
Like, we can sort of take a stepback and describe it. And so
I've been working, I've beenplaying with that a little bit
with my kids. What otheradjectives could we use? What
other How can we observe what'shappening in the situation
(23:27):
rather than judging thesituation?
Lauren (23:30):
I love that so much. I love the reframe from was I good
or bad? Which you're absolutelyright includes these inherent
judgments. Well, what does itmean to be good? What does it
mean to be bad? And then we canhave these flips where well,
maybe it was actually quote,good that I was bad because
(23:50):
yeah, create, right? Like itcreate, you know, if I achieve
my unconscious inner childcoping through perfection and
safety dream of always seeingand hearing and understanding
people. That's not reality withhumans. What am I teaching them?
You know, one of the mostimportant cuz this this is part
(24:14):
of the part of the argument thatwas happening inside me while I
was struggling to fall asleep.
was, I know better. I know thatI actually need to be knocked
off that pedestal. That's thenext step of growth. I need to
show up human and make mistakesand get it quote, wrong. Or I
love your reframe, though. Partof me is like challenge yourself
(24:36):
to stop saying good and bad.
That's such a great idea. Thankyou, Amy.
Amy (24:41):
It's also not bad to say good and bad, not bad. Right?
Right.
Lauren (24:45):
But like if we say what happened, what happened? I
didn't hear her. I didn't seeher. I didn't reflect back what
she was wanting and needing andI didn't know it. And then she
told me and she She had theopportunity to sit with that
feel that experience thatdecided to do something about it
(25:06):
decide to advocate for herself,clarify her truth, rather than
just swallowing it, which isanother child childhood
protective survival pattern is,you know, and I'm not I'm going
to try to get them to see mytruth, because it's too scary.
You know, and so she had anopportunity to practice a skill,
build resilience, I had anopportunity to learn, build, you
(25:28):
know, all of that. If we justlook at what happened. And so
then I was judging myself, I'mlike, What are you upset about
inner child, this is allperfect. This is all exactly
what's supposed to happen, youknow. But I love what you were
saying earlier, too, becausewhen we try to quiet the inner
child, or judge the inner childor invalidate the inner child,
sometimes they retreat and hide,they do anything that a real
(25:53):
child will do sometimes
Amy (25:54):
yells oftentimes at the top of her lungs times.
Lauren (25:58):
Louder, right? Totally.
And mine does both, likesometimes I can shame that inner
child into submission for alittle while, but I pay for it
later. And sometimes she getslouder in the moment, you know?
And, like how how to hold thisis part of my life's work is
experimenting with, how can Ihold both at the same time? How
(26:22):
can I allow them to both be trueto both exist? And that has been
a skill that I have really founda lot of value in, and I'm
excited to keep growing andcultivating it and expanding my
capacity to do that, because itfeels more true to me like,
Yeah, talk about being with whatis? And what's true, that feels
(26:46):
more true to me than the pickone, you got to pick one,
Amy (26:53):
you know, right? Yeah, for me, I have experienced, anytime
I try to reject shame, silencemy inner child, it just
entrenches that thought stream.
Whereas if I go, wow, look atyou having that same pattern
(27:14):
that meant that you could feelokay, and like you would be
loved and accepted and belong,and learn as you have broken
down in previous shows. But Iwant to reiterate it here. These
are survival level patterns.
Because as human beings, we aremammals that are survive by way
(27:36):
of being a part of a group. Andso belonging is a survival
level. The stakes are survival.
And so it was life or death askids, and we took on ways of
being. And when I remember that,and I go, of course, you're
feeling triggered and activatedand upset, because you didn't do
the thing that you believed wasgoing to keep you safe. And
(27:56):
while that's not true, that'show it got wired into you. And
when I go, Oh, yes, here it is,again, we can be with it.
Sometimes it dissipatessometimes it's there and I just
get to stay with it. Buteventually it does dissipate. So
yes, that is the practice. Ioften times and you love
(28:18):
practice, and I love that youlove practice, because I've
begun to love practice. And I'verealized that all of life is
just practice. At some point, Ihad this like fantasy that it
would be like practicing forthem like performance, you know,
like, Oh, now I've got it. Allright. And I no longer hold that
fantasy. Even right would bepart of my old wiring. And yeah,
(28:43):
I want to bring up anothercontradiction that you helped me
see newly because I wonder ifyou could comment on this. I
just love I sometimes read thewords of experts and accept them
as the truth from up on themountain. It has been spoken.
And one of those people for meand she is amazing, because she
(29:07):
will say do not Pedesta lies me.
And I had put our dear Dr.
Shefali Sabari on a pedestal.
She's our conscious parentingteacher. And she had said in her
book and I have it highlightedthat love and fear cannot be
(29:28):
present in the same moment. AndI took that as a fact. And then
I brought that to you. Do youremember what you said?
Lauren (29:38):
No, I don't remember exactly what I said. But I
Amy (29:42):
can you comment on it.
Lauren (29:45):
I know I can always do that. I can. Um, yeah, so I what
I would say so now part of mymind is like what did I say? Can
I remember? Probably not. Butum, when I hear that quote love
and fear cannot coexist. So Ithink I said multiple things.
One, my personal preferred wayof viewing the world currently
(30:11):
is that everything exists insideof love that, like love is the
essence of everything. And thatI don't know if that sounds
weird and confusing sometimes.
Because, because it is becauseit is weird and confusing. I'm
just going to own that it's kindof weird and confusing and
(30:33):
mysterious. So for me, when I,when I think about that quote,
and I think about Dr. Shefali, Itranslate things to myself the
way that I like to translatethem, and that they make sense
to me. And if I'm aware of it, Ican hold space for the
possibility that they believethat they mean that maybe, maybe
Dr. Shefali means that exactlythat way and believes it, and
(30:54):
maybe in her experience, it'sone or the other, and they can't
coexist. You know, some peoplesay love casts out fear, like,
if you. And that's interestingto me for this conversation that
we're having right now. Becauseif I look inside myself, and I
think about my children, who Ilove, I would say I love my
(31:17):
children so deeply more than Ithought I was capable of loving.
And I have so much fear inrelation to my children, and
they don't feel mutuallyexclusive to me. I don't feel
like in one moment, I'm eitherloving my child, or acting from
fear and not love, not lovingthem, like pick one, which is
(31:42):
it, they pet can't both coexist.
For me, they coexist all thetime. I am aware of my fear and
aware of my love, where I mightbe able, like the bridge that
Dr. Shefali and I might be ableto build that we might both be
like, Yeah, this bridge worksfor both of us would be in a
(32:04):
moment when I choose to act if Iact from love, or is it an or
can I act from love and fear or,or and I guess even that I'm
like, it's it's not it's not oneor the other, it's there's so
(32:25):
much nuance there. Because likewhen my kids go for a bike ride
around the neighborhood, I'mafraid that a car is going to
hit them. And I love them. And Iwant them to have fun. And I
want them to get to ride theirbikes, and I want them to wear
their helmets and put them oncorrectly. And I want them to
look both ways. And I want like,I'm scared and I love them. And
(32:47):
I don't know, it just all existstogether for me. And if I own
that and acknowledge that, um,that feels more true to me.
Yeah.
Amy (32:58):
I love that. And I was busy at the time when I brought you
this profound quote, or insighttrying to live up to it and
trying to choose, am I in thismoment coming from love? Or am I
in this moment coming from fear?
How do I discern. And, to acertain extent, we can sometimes
(33:18):
see where fear can get in theway of the real big universal
love.
Lauren (33:29):
But for
Amy (33:30):
most of my experience as a human both can be present in the
same moment. And so I was sortof trying it on like a new coat,
you know, like, Okay, this isjust this is my love only coat,
I am no longer coming from fearbecause I now see that they
can't both be present. And Ichoose this. And it just felt
like the impossible. And now Ilike to and maybe it's the same
(33:55):
thing as saying that my myhigher self and my inner child
can be present at the samemoment because they can and and
so I just accept now that loveand fear are apart or they're
just in for me they're likeintertwined are, you know that
marbleized paper that you paperkind of art project? It's like
(34:18):
okay, so how are you going toseparate that out? Right? Like
that's not even yin and yangthat's just like a beautiful
blending of that creates a wholenew vivid experience of being
human. And for me, at leastwhere I am in my journey right
now. Both things can be presentat the same time in a way that
I'm just embracing is the beautyof the human experience. Sorry
(34:41):
to get all metaphorical andpoetic about it. That's your
job. Poetic, but I'm sorry. It'shard at sorry, but that's my
current experience of it. Andit's been. I think the reason I
feel like it's important tobring it up in this conversation
is because it's been so freeingfor me It feels much more. And I
(35:03):
at the same time, love, love,love, love, love, the power of
intention, like I can be clearabout my intention in the
moment. And I can choose to comefrom love. And that feels very
different from the people to thepeople around me, then choosing
to come from the fear, and ofcourse, all the other ways that
(35:23):
that might come to life, whichfor me usually is anger. And so
if I get really clear about myintentions, and where I want to
be coming from, I could chooselove in that way. And also, very
much still experienced that loveand fear can be present at the
same time, I wanted to share arecent experience that I had, I
(35:45):
share with you this. Could Ihave an inner child that learned
that doing things right, all thetime was the way to be safe, and
loved. And so sister in mypursuit of doing things, right,
I was not supposed to get COVID
Lauren (36:03):
Mm hmm,
Amy (36:04):
that would make me wrong and bad. Mm hmm. And recently,
Hey, guys, I got COVID. And partof my conviction that there was
a whole lot that came up aroundthat because I was also
vaccinated. So I had this storythat I did what I was supposed
to do, I wasn't supposed to getit. I had a lot of stories, you
(36:27):
guys. And it was, it wasdefinitely it rocked my world in
the sense that it brought up alot of stuff. I had to make a
list so I could sort it out inmy mind, because I kept feeling
like there were all these thingsthat it triggered. And there
were 30 things. And they rangefrom regret to fear to anger
(36:54):
about different dimensions ofit, and also gratitude. And so I
won't go through all 30 You'rewelcome. But bonus episode.
Yeah. All right. Here's anepisode of AV reading a list of
30 triggers from having hadCOVID. Okay, just kidding. If
(37:14):
you really need to know, if youyourself are struggling with
your experience of COVID justshoot me an email. And we will
talk I will share with you andcollaborate and commiserate and
unpack your stuff with you too.
But the part of this that Iwanted to share was just a
particular moment where I wasaware of both love and fear
occurring in the same momentwhere, so to my also, horror,
(37:35):
fear, shame, self blame all ofthose things that came up my I
gave it to my daughter. So of myfour kids, my six year old got
it. And it was, I mean, that inand of itself was was was was
traumatizing. She's my kid hashad more health problems. And
(38:01):
she was the last one that youknow, I would want to have get
it. And as she progressedthrough it she you couldn't even
tell she was sick. I mean, shejust sailed through it. And so I
was having these feelings ofgratitude of like, wow, look at
(38:21):
the resilience that my daughterhas me is showing me after
having been I've spoken abouther on the show before she was
hospitalized for pneumonia. Sothey assured me that her lungs
have healed but then she getsCOVID and all of that fear comes
right back right back like itwas yesterday. And then I'm
seeing her sort of in the 10days that we were together
(38:48):
alone. She's thriving. Not onlythat, I'm having so much
gratitude for all of this one onone time, but don't get with her
because she's in school eighthours a day. And, and at the
same time, the very same time isfeeling this gratitude. I'm
feeling brokenhearted at whatmissing our four year old son
(39:10):
and my husband and other humansand starting to feel I mean dace
eight, nine and 10 it wasdepression was what I was
feeling and at the same time I'mtreasuring this time with my
daughter. So I'm was very muchin this simultaneously feeling
(39:30):
gratitude for her resilience andgratitude for our time together,
and sadness at the missing ofother people. And at at the just
really I think that kind ofisolation for humans is on a
visceral level can make you feelreally sad and disconnected and
(39:53):
all of that was just present atthe same time and that feels
like it maps back to love,gratitude is sort of hand in
hand with love, and, and fearand sadness and loss, you know.
So that was my recent experienceof all the things occurring at
once in a previous a pastversion of me, rather than
(40:15):
writing down 30 triggers wouldhave tried to boil down this
entire experience to one thing.
So I would have one, oneinterpretation, one clear
interpretation of like what thisall meant, and it was just,
obviously, that would be afool's errand, there was so much
here to unpack in over 10 days,the experience, morphed and
(40:37):
transformed. But now I canembrace that it was so many
things, I couldn't keep themstraight in my mind, and I had
to put them on paper. And thenonce I did that, and you guys
know, I resist journaling, like,like, like, that's like I but I
have started. And when I do, I'mreally grateful that I do and
now they're on paper, and Icould sort of look at it and see
(40:59):
it, and it somehow doesn't liveinside of me in the same way. Mm
hmm. Yeah.
Lauren (41:05):
Yeah, that's what I recently thing. Yeah. That's one
of my favorite things aboutwriting things down. When I
write things down, and I can seethem outside of myself, it
creates a little bit of space,and a little bit of opportunity
for a different perspective,because when they're all
swirling around inside me, they,to some degree, feel like they
(41:29):
are me, and I am them. Whateverthey are, whatever swirling
around inside me, it is me I amit to a degree, like, that's my
internal experience of mergingwith whatever is inside me. If I
put it on the paper, create alittle space, it opens up
options for my relationship withthose parts of my experience.
(41:52):
And I love that, and I love Ilove you sharing and describing
how all of those things could bepresent. And I think it's so
amazing, Amy, Amy amazing,amazing, Amy I love that's my my
nickname is Amy zing, amazing.
Anyway, I just think it's soamazing that you wrote them all
down, and you acknowledge youwere able to acknowledge them
(42:18):
all hold space for them allThat's so incredible to me. And
something that I'm continuing towork towards and build my
ability to do because, you know,the more space we can create, to
see all the parts of ourselvesmore clearly, and hold space for
it and allow it all to exist. Ifeel like the greater access we
(42:42):
have to wholeness. And one ofthe one of my thoughts for this
episode was talking about theboth and contradictions and
quote, clarity. What is clarity?
Well, old me thought clarity wasgetting clear about the one
thing that is true and all theother things that are false. And
(43:02):
yes, I would get so excited whenthere were certain elements of
my life that felt clear in thatway. Like I know this and
everything else. No, yes to thiseverything else. No yay,
clarity. I did it. And then allthese other areas. I'd be like,
I'm a mess. I'm a disaster. I'mconfused. What is it? Is it
(43:23):
this? Or is it this? Is it thatit doesn't make sense? Is this
normal? What's wrong with me?
And now I'm building this newrelationship with quote,
clarity, as a way to see clearlywhat is. And sometimes it's 30
things.
Amy (43:40):
Yeah.
Lauren (43:42):
I love that. so amazing that, you know,
Amy (43:45):
I have I've also embraced that. Yeah. But sometimes
clarity is just seeing that it'snot clear. That was the way I
related to having come throughCOVID is that it actually, and
(44:07):
I'm, I'm, I'm sure that I'llcontinue to unpack it, because
it brought up to the surfacestuff. I'm actually sort of
grateful for the lack of clarityit brought up because I related
to it, sort of like a mud puddlewhere a bunch of stuff I hadn't
dealt with had sunk to thebottom. And so it's settled. You
know, like, the dirt kind ofsettles to the bottom and it
(44:29):
looks clear, but it's still amud puddle. And COVID was that
stick that went in there andstart it back up. So it's like,
ooh, hold on. I sort of had,quote unquote, clarity, because
I wasn't seeing these otherparts of my experience that
hadn't been healed yet. So yeah,because it went to the core. I
(44:51):
mean, it brought up for me thatand we'll talk about this in
future episodes because you guyswere really excited to talk
about death. So this will be ayes. I mean, maybe you guys
aren't, but you will be when webring it on the show, because
it's super important. But yeah,I mean, when you when I got a
(45:12):
COVID, like it even brought upfor me, this feeling of oh, but
I'm, first of all, I'm notsupposed to get this. So I'm
angry and filled with like,indignation. And then literally
right now as I speak to you onthis podcast sitting here
drinking my green shake, and I'msupposed to be so healthy, that
(45:36):
I'm not supposed to get thatsick from this. And that was not
what I experienced in reality.
And so it made me feel reallymortal. Like, ooh, even my
immune system isn't as good aswhat I thought it was supposed
to be. And now I'm confrontingwhat that means, right? You can
make up this fiction of like,almost, that you're so healthy,
that your immune system would beso great that you would be
(45:56):
untouchable. And that somehow isthis fiction that's going to
protect you from death. And thenit's actually the experience
taught me something else. Soit's very humbling.
Lauren (46:08):
Absolutely. And I would say, similarly paralleling my
experience with the feedbackthat I received last night, it
reconnected me to what is truefor me, which is my attachment
to the fantasy that I have takenall these classes and learned
(46:31):
all these skills and trainedwith masters and gurus and I can
show up and see people clearlyand understand them and hear
them no matter what they'resaying. And I can reflect back,
clearly, and I can do this, andI will do it right that that
invincibility piece that like Ihave graduated and evolved, and
(46:52):
I've transcended that lowerlevel where I make mistakes,
and, you know, to be reminded ofmy humanity, and my mortality,
and my, you know, nobody can getit right all the time. And the
desire to do so is a way to tryto seek safety and security and
(47:15):
avoid death, whether it'sphysical death or social death,
right. And they're intertwined,like you were talking about
earlier. And we've talked aboutthis before, because human
infants, toddlers, children knowthat their status in the tribe
is directly correlated withwhether they're going to be kept
alive or not. And so, you know,they're that sense of belonging,
(47:38):
connection with other humans, isa survival level of threat. And
so when I face the fact that Iam not gonna please, all my
clients, I'm not going to get itright. They could reject me,
they could say, You know what,you didn't see me you didn't
understand me, you didn't hearme, I don't want to talk to you
anymore. And on some level, mynervous system reacts to that
(47:59):
with oh, God, I'm gonna die.
Yeah, this is it. This is thething we've been avoiding, you
know, part of part of why I'm soexcited to talk about death. And
as I hear myself say that I'mlike, Lauren, do you want to put
a dose of maybe sensitivity ontop of that, because death. So
the the part of me that soexcited to talk about death and
(48:23):
wants to be like death, thatthat, that that that part of me
is very aware of the ways inwhich I have historically
avoided death wanted to keepdeath hidden. Like some people
talk about how in our modernwesternized society, we're no
longer confronted with death, ona daily basis, the way humans
(48:45):
were in the past. Now, deathhappens in hospitals, you know,
hidden, whereas in the past,everybody was a part of it. And
there were death rituals, andbirth rituals, and the entire
life cycle was experienced andcelebrated and mourned. And it
(49:05):
was all part of thisinterconnected web of like full
human experience that was sharedcollectively. And now we have
the option to ignore death,avoid death, pretend it doesn't
exist, try to come up with waysthat we can be the ones to evade
(49:26):
it, you know, and yeah, for me,running away from death is not
the same as running towardslife. And my intention for
myself, my desire, thetransformation I'm seeking, is
to more and more choose to runtowards life and fully embrace
(49:49):
life, which for me, includesembracing death as part of life,
rather than trying to run awayfrom death and then
unconsciously, also running awayfrom life.
Amy (50:04):
I love that this is the the kind of final theme that we're
bringing into this conversationbecause it's the ultimate. It's
the ultimate articulation of howto think both. And it's like
life and death. embracing liferequires us to embrace death. So
(50:26):
one isn't against the other,it's all part of the experience.
And we'll leave, we'll leavesome further discussion of this
will deep dive on this in a soonto come episode, but I just I
love that, even as you are ourteacher of the both and in the
holding the contradiction thatthat you can can can also bring
(50:50):
such a profound, specificexample of how life and death
must both be held together.
Lauren (50:58):
So, yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely one of the
things that feels most alive forme these days. And as I noticed
myself saying the word alive,you know, death feels alive to
me right now, in terms of that,that contradiction, that paradox
that I think life is, and I'lljust kind of wrap up by inviting
(51:22):
listeners, if you want to, ifthis is of interest to you, to
invite yourself to notice if andwhen you're feeling or
experiencing multiple thingsthat feel contradictory. And if
you have had experiences likeAmy and I, where you feel this
compulsion to have to choose oneand reject the other, if I'm
(51:45):
grateful, I can't be angry. IfI'm disappointed, I can't also
be accepting of what happened orif I you know, whatever those
might be for you. Because I havereally benefited from inviting
myself to explore and noticethose things. And so I would
(52:05):
love to leave that invitationfor all of you as well.
Amy (52:10):
Beautiful. I love it. I have loved this conversation
listeners. We hope that you haveto. And if there's anyone else
that you feel could benefit fromhearing this conversation and
embracing the contradictions intheir life. We would love it if
(52:33):
you could share this podcastpass it on. Thank you so much
for listening.
Lauren (52:38):
Thank you
We believe life can be a journey toward wholeness, toward
reconnecting with who we areauthentically meant to be. We
walk this path of growth anddiscovery with our children,
with our partners withinourselves. These are the stories
of what's possible. These arethe conversations that light the
(00:28):
way. Welcome to soul pathparenting. Hi, Lauren. Hi, Amy.
I am excited to be here today.
Actually excited is probablyjust the the word that I'm
choosing, because it'sappropriate, but I'm actually
feeling really calm and anchoredin my body. And I'm, I'm really
looking forward to thisconversation.
Lauren (00:52):
Me too. I'm excited. And that is my usual way of feeling
and showing up when we're aboutto record like I find recording
exciting. I'm like, I'm excited.
Let's record yay. And if I takea moment to assess myself beyond
that, because there is a littlebit of the kind of default mode
in my excitement, every time werecord, it's kind of similar to
(01:17):
how people talk about how areyou fine, fine, good, good. Just
write automatic. And so myautomatic is I'm excited. And
then if I pause and go, Whatelse am I? I'm excited. I'm
curious to see how thisconversation goes. Yeah, I am
feeling open. Curious, excited.
(01:41):
interested. So yeah,
Amy (01:44):
I love that. And I just want to say, today, we are
diving into a conversation aboutcontradictions and the
experience, what I am nowexperiencing as the beauty of
both and my both and experienceof life, which is something that
(02:08):
you have taught me. And I lovethat we started out actually
talking about how we're feelingin our bodies and as a state of
being because we just recentlydid a series on feelings and
feeling our way to wholeness.
And I was like a floating headbefore that series that had
(02:31):
this, this body had lots ofthoughts going through it on top
of this body that moved the headaround. And I'm very much in my
body in the sense that I youknow, I'm an avid, avid person I
love working out. So I avidexerciser was is even the word
for that. I'm athletic person.
(02:54):
Yeah, I'm no longer crossfitter.
But I avidly workout. And so Iused my body, but not in the
sense of feeling feelings, untilwe unpacked each of the
feelings. And as we prepared forthat series, The last episode
was about feeling calm andcontent. So kind of a high
(03:16):
pleasantness but lower energyfeeling. And before a recording
session earlier in the day, Ihad dropped off my four year old
at preschool. And I got in thecar and I sat in the driver's
seat. And I thought, oh, let'sjust check in and see how I'm
feeling today because we'regoing to be recording this. And
(03:37):
I realized, yes, I feel present,and calm and grounded, like
anchored in my body. And I feelanxious, I feel this like
tightness in my stomach. Andwait a minute, can I be these
(03:58):
two things at once? Can I becalm and content and anxious at
the same time? Obviously, we diddifferent shows on those states
of being. But what I realized inthat moment is that to think we
have to choose is actuallythat's leading us out of
ourselves and away from our realhuman experience. And this is
(04:21):
something that that you havetaught me and that has really
enriched my life and enhanced mylife is stopping that forced
choice. You know, life isn'tjust like true false ABC
multiple choice that we can havelots of things happening at
once. And so I just I love andappreciate that. And that's what
(04:43):
we're going to talk about today.
And I wonder how you mightintroduce this idea.
Lauren (04:52):
I love your story about noticing and feeling the calm
anchored gnus throughout most ofyour physical body. And the
presence of anxiety in yourstomach tension entered a
different energy in one locationin your body while the rest of
your body was feeling somethingelse. I love that example. I
(05:13):
love that story. I love both.
And I love the idea ofpermission to be with what is
and openness to it possiblybeing multiple, seemingly
contradictory things at once,because sometimes that is what
is. And one of the things youand I talked about in
(05:35):
preparation for this episode wasthe possibility that as human
brains develop, that youngchildren naturally go through a
what is it? Phase, they startnaming things, what is dog cow
Moo? You know, that's the soundthat dogs make. They start
(05:57):
naming things, they startconnecting, what is a naming and
categorizing. And we could talkabout labeling, maybe we'll get
into that more later. And thenthey can progress to
categorizing. Which is it? Is itthis? Or is it that, and there
is a natural developmental phaseof dualistic thinking black or
(06:20):
white thinking it's this, it'snot that it's a cow, it's not a
dog, it's, you know, whateverthe case may be. And if we get
stuck there, which some of us doto some degree, or if we
continue to lean too heavily onthat, throughout adolescence and
young adulthood and maturity, wewill find ourselves limiting
(06:44):
ourselves in ways that Eclipsepart of our reality. So while a
toddler can say cow, not dog,and that is true, we're being
with what is it's a cow, it'snot a dog. For you know, a
mature adult person to lookinside themselves and notice
(07:04):
calm relaxation, and like apocket of anxiety and go, Oh
crap, which is it? Is it a cow?
Or is it a dog? Do I have topick? You know, like, do I have
to choose? Which one? Can I beboth these things at once? And
my answer is, yes, we can. Yes,you can. You can you can be both
(07:25):
at once. And I usually try tocreate space for options, you
know, not always or neversometimes we're multiple things.
Sometimes we're one thing andit's radiating through our
entire bodies. Sometimes we'remultiple things. And I have a
(07:45):
story to share about me lastnight, that includes me feeling
that tension of fighting withmyself, and then finally
relaxing into Oh, I can be boththings at once. And I know you
have some stories, too. Butyeah, I think I would just I
think I would set it up in termsof the brain development phases.
(08:10):
The either or what is it? Whichis it categorizing? And then if
we move beyond that, and if wesupport I love how you
mentioned, like, true false ormultiple choice. You know, I
taught high school. And by thatpoint, a lot of multiple choice
questions, even some true falsequestions were arguable. They
(08:30):
weren't so clear cut, theyweren't so absolute. They were
influenced by the person whomade the test. They were, you
know, there's, we could probablythink of examples, right. Now,
if we wanted to have a truefalse that really is a true
false, but then we couldprobably nuance it even my, you
know, silly, random grabbing outof thin air dog cow example?
(08:53):
Well, they're both mammals.
Well, they both walk on fourlegs, well, they, you know, it's
like dog, not a cow, cow, not adog. Well, how are they similar?
And how are they different? Andso, you know, if you do a true
false question, and you havehigh school students who have
access to the range ofintellectual ability to nuance
and challenge things, Idefinitely spent some time
(09:15):
discussing and dialoguing withstudents about test questions
that, you know, I had been giventhat were part of the curriculum
that I had, and that they werechallenging. And sometimes I'd
be like, you have an excellentpoint. And so you know, just all
of that to say, the, what wegain access to in maturity if
we're able to hold the tensionof contradiction and complexity
(09:42):
and not force ourselves to pickeither or, but rather have
access to the both and I thinkit opens up a lot of
possibilities. And I know welove talking about what's
possible,
Amy (09:53):
so that's right. Yeah, I think I used to live inside of
this False binary, where. So oneof the false binaries I had
would be anger versusacceptance. I either can be
(10:16):
angry about it, or I can acceptit. And I have actually
experienced that I can acceptthings and be angry about them
at the same time. Have you everhad that experience? It was
really confusing to me. And thenI remembered this false
dichotomy and this teaching ofyou can hold space for all the
(10:38):
things. Have you experiencedthat before?
Lauren (10:41):
Absolutely, yes. So many times, and my, you know, I used
to impose so many false binarieson myself. And, and I think I
was taught to do that to somedegree. And I think it also can
be getting stuck in thatdevelopmental phase to some
degree, like, I think thetransition from the necessary
(11:04):
developmental stage of you know,black or white thinking has to
be facilitated maybe, or it canbe hindered or anyway, but yes,
my answer is yes. Because oldme, if old me had a moment of
awareness that I was bothaccepting such and such reality
and also angry about it. If oldme had that awareness, I would
(11:28):
start an internal argument whilewhich is it your you either
accept it, and you stopcomplaining about it, and you
stop being you can't? You can'tbe angry and accept it? So
you're not accepting it? Oh,wait, you are accepting it, then
why is this anger? You know,like, yeah, I would be the
internal dialogue. And then, soSo then, I'm angry. I'm also
(11:51):
weirdly feeling some acceptancefor what is outside of myself,
but zero acceptance for what isinside of myself. So yeah,
angry, accepting, not accepting,like it's, it's, it's a circus.
So. But if I can relax into it,I think this is making me want
to share my story from lastnight,
Amy (12:12):
I was having the same sorry, yes.
Lauren (12:14):
So this happened to me last night. Yesterday, I had a
coaching call with a client inwhich the client shared that
they had been disappointed inthe previous session that we had
had, they had felt like in ourprevious session, in previous
(12:37):
conversation that I had failedto hold space for their reality,
hear them, see them, validatethem. And they were bringing
this to my attention. And soyesterday, I was on the
receiving end of that feedback.
And, for one, I was sodisappointed to hear that
(12:58):
because I tried to hold spacefor all the possibilities, and
validate people and hear themand see them. That's part of
what I tried to do. So in theprevious session, I had been
trying to do that. And then Ilearned I had failed. And I had
basically done the opposite. Ihad unknowingly unconsciously in
the way I was speaking about thetopic eclipsed this person's
(13:19):
reality. That's how it hadlanded. That's how it had been
experienced. And so, so I'm inthe session yesterday. And
during this session, I'm like,thank you for bringing this up.
This is such a wonderful exampleof advocating for yourself, of
challenging the lens throughwith through which someone is
(13:41):
looking at you like wonderful, Iwill take in that feedback. I
hear you now, is this whatyou're saying now, you know, I
tried to receive it well, andto, you know, show up in the
session, the way that I'mtrained to show up in a
situation like that, and the waythat I want to show up in a
situation like that. And so thesession ended, and I went
(14:03):
through the rest of my evening,and then I'm laying in bed last
night, and it's just eating atme, like I have these conflicted
feelings going on inside me. Andthe argument starts and I'm, I'm
feeling vulnerable, scared. Myinner child's coping mechanism
of people pleasing and gettingthings right in order to feel
(14:27):
safe, was activated because Ihad gotten it wrong. And I did
not feel safe. You know, part ofme was like, Why did I choose
this line of work? Why am Iopening myself up to these kinds
of experiences when it terrifiesmy inner child and it's so
uncomfortable? I don't like howI'm feeling right now. This
(14:48):
feels less terrible. I don'twant to feel this go away. You
know, like that's happeninginside me. And there's this
other strong, loving,compassionate voice that lives
in me all the time. Now. Thatwas like, talking me through the
experience. Like this is reallygreat. Don't forget that you co
created the level of safety withthis person for them to give you
(15:12):
this kind of feedback. And youreceived it well. And then of
course, I'm arguing internallywith myself and like, Yeah,
well, on the surface, I receivedit well, but inside my inner
child was like, No way, I don'twant to receive this. So yeah,
multiple things are happening atonce. And to try to distill this
down to what we're talkingabout, today, I'm laying in bed,
(15:34):
struggling to fall asleep,realizing I feel afraid,
uncomfortable, disappointed, Idon't want this. And at the same
time, there's this other side ofme that feels like, this is the
work Lauren, this is how youbuild resilience. This is what
you your old survival patternswould seek to avoid. But now
(15:56):
you're facing it, and you're init. And in a few days, you'll
probably just be so grateful forthis conversation, because it's
such a great reminder to youthat you're human, and you don't
always see and hear peoplecorrectly. And if you can
receive that feedback and makeadjustments, like that's what
(16:16):
this is all about. And so I havethis all going on inside me. And
I just, I was feeling thatpressure to pick one like, okay,
either. I'm upset about this,and I hate my job, and I'm
quitting this job, but I'mgetting it I'm gonna be like,
I'm gonna go be a waitress. Andthen when people's food is
wrong, I'm blaming the kitchen.
(16:37):
I'm like, Look, it's not me. Itwas the kitchens fault. You
know, I don't want to be soaccountable. Because I am the
coach. I there was nobody for meto blame. There was nowhere to
hide. You know, it was there wasno like, Oh, you thought I
wasn't seeing you. Actually, thecook messed up. Like there
wasn't me. That wasn't me.
Because guess what I see peopleclearly that's what I do. That's
(17:00):
how I be safe.
Amy (17:06):
Yeah, just
Lauren (17:07):
feeling it just feeling it and. And so I finally was
able to so at first I'm in thethick of it, like, which is it?
You got to be grateful shut,like literally almost as if if I
were describing it internally,I'm like shoving my feelings to
one side. And then they'reresisting. They're like, No,
we're still upset and thenshoving them to the other side.
(17:28):
And then finally, I did some ofmy breathing exercises. And I
said to myself, it's okay, thatyou feel upset right now. And
it's okay that you also feelgrateful for this right now. And
it's okay that you feel like youshould quote should I always
know when that word shows up,I'm like, Oh, there you are,
again, that you should feelpurely grateful or purely upset.
(17:53):
But you don't, you feel both.
And it's okay. And I finally wasable to like breathe and relax
and go to sleep.
Amy (18:00):
It's such a beautiful example of a couple of different
things. One is, when we get inthis battle between different
thoughts, our body can actuallyour breathing and actually going
out of the thoughts and into thefeelings in the body. That is
(18:20):
sometimes the only place becauseI so want to settle that debate
and pick the winner of theargument. And it's reminding me
to your story feels like a thingthat happens to me sometimes,
which is that my inner child andmy, like adult self, my Higher
Self are in an argument. And I'mtrying to I want the higher self
(18:45):
to win the argument. And yet theinner child has a lot of really
valid points based on what I hadto do to survive as a child. And
as we know, and like so this isanother inclination that I have
that over the couple of years ofthis podcast I've been becoming
aware of, but I have thisinclination to want to sort of
(19:06):
kill off the negative thing.
Right? So I resist it. I'm like,inner child, shut the up. Like
you're wrong. And and we're notchoosing you, but that just
makes the inner child go, oh, Ican't just talk I have to yell
now. Okay. And so it's justcontinues on and sometimes we
can just hold space for all ofthe voices.
Lauren (19:34):
Yeah, well in another thing it makes me think about
is, you know how I've struggledwith. The term that I am used to
using is imposter syndrome. ButI read something recently that
was challenging that term. Andyou know, we use words to try to
describe things and thensometimes they're helpful and
(19:56):
sometimes they need to benuanced or you know, Sometimes
they're incomplete. But for me,one of the paradoxes I'm growing
my capacity to hold, is the ideathat I can show up as a coach
and a guide for people and I cando really amazing work
(20:21):
sometimes. And then sometimes Imess it up and I get it wrong.
And that doesn't negate the factthat I'm still a quote, good
coach, which this could segue usinto quote, good and bad. Good.
Yeah. Right. Like the good badjudgments, because that's
another place where we feel thispush pull this which is, am I
good? Or am I bad? Am I good atwhat I do? Or bad at what I do?
(20:44):
Because in the session that thisclient was giving me feedback
about yesterday, in that if wesnapshot that moment,
objectively speaking, I wasquite bad at what I am supposed
to do. In that moment, I did theopposite. I am supposed to, you
know, help my clients feel seen,heard understood, reflect their
(21:05):
truth back to them, help themsee it even more clearly
understand themselves better.
And I did the opposite. I'vemessed up, they felt less like
not seen not heard, notunderstood. So I'm like, Oh, no.
Does that mean I'm a bad coach?
I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna go bea waitress. That's it. You know?
Whereas Yeah, if I look at theother times that I've gotten,
(21:25):
quote, positive feedback I'vehad many clients say, Wow, the
way you reflected that back tome helped me understand myself
better. I feel like you reallyunderstood what I was saying.
And you offered me a reframe, oran insight that helped me Well,
that's what I want to hear,right? And then I'm like, ooh,
check the box. Good. I'm good.
I'm good. I did it. I'm good,you know? And what's the
(21:46):
reality? I'm both sometimes I'mreally good at what I do.
Sometimes. I'm bad at it. Andthey're both true.
Amy (21:56):
Yeah, and they're both judgments. And so one of the
interesting things to me aboutgood and bad, to have my four
kids, two of them are six andfour years old. And they're very
much in this good, badconversation. And I love my
(22:21):
favorite thing, because I'm sortof aware now have the words good
and bad in my vocabulary. And myfavorite thing to do, when I
find myself, either hearing orusing good or bad is to look for
other words to describe what ishappening. So whereas good and
battered judgment, it's like,oh, are there other adjectives
(22:44):
or descriptors that I could use?
Because good and bad, actually,we could say and that's this is
perfect for this conversationare true and untrue. Right? Like
there's, they're just aninterpretation of a person who's
telling a story about a thing.
And so really, what's present iswe could say, well, you know,
(23:07):
it's not that Lauren is a badtherapist. In that moment, that
person didn't feel seen in theway she wanted to feel seen.
Like, we can sort of take a stepback and describe it. And so
I've been working, I've beenplaying with that a little bit
with my kids. What otheradjectives could we use? What
other How can we observe what'shappening in the situation
(23:27):
rather than judging thesituation?
Lauren (23:30):
I love that so much. I love the reframe from was I good
or bad? Which you're absolutelyright includes these inherent
judgments. Well, what does itmean to be good? What does it
mean to be bad? And then we canhave these flips where well,
maybe it was actually quote,good that I was bad because
(23:50):
yeah, create, right? Like itcreate, you know, if I achieve
my unconscious inner childcoping through perfection and
safety dream of always seeingand hearing and understanding
people. That's not reality withhumans. What am I teaching them?
You know, one of the mostimportant cuz this this is part
(24:14):
of the part of the argument thatwas happening inside me while I
was struggling to fall asleep.
was, I know better. I know thatI actually need to be knocked
off that pedestal. That's thenext step of growth. I need to
show up human and make mistakesand get it quote, wrong. Or I
love your reframe, though. Partof me is like challenge yourself
(24:36):
to stop saying good and bad.
That's such a great idea. Thankyou, Amy.
Amy (24:41):
It's also not bad to say good and bad, not bad. Right?
Right.
Lauren (24:45):
But like if we say what happened, what happened? I
didn't hear her. I didn't seeher. I didn't reflect back what
she was wanting and needing andI didn't know it. And then she
told me and she She had theopportunity to sit with that
feel that experience thatdecided to do something about it
(25:06):
decide to advocate for herself,clarify her truth, rather than
just swallowing it, which isanother child childhood
protective survival pattern is,you know, and I'm not I'm going
to try to get them to see mytruth, because it's too scary.
You know, and so she had anopportunity to practice a skill,
build resilience, I had anopportunity to learn, build, you
(25:28):
know, all of that. If we justlook at what happened. And so
then I was judging myself, I'mlike, What are you upset about
inner child, this is allperfect. This is all exactly
what's supposed to happen, youknow. But I love what you were
saying earlier, too, becausewhen we try to quiet the inner
child, or judge the inner childor invalidate the inner child,
sometimes they retreat and hide,they do anything that a real
(25:53):
child will do sometimes
Amy (25:54):
yells oftentimes at the top of her lungs times.
Lauren (25:58):
Louder, right? Totally.
And mine does both, likesometimes I can shame that inner
child into submission for alittle while, but I pay for it
later. And sometimes she getslouder in the moment, you know?
And, like how how to hold thisis part of my life's work is
experimenting with, how can Ihold both at the same time? How
(26:22):
can I allow them to both be trueto both exist? And that has been
a skill that I have really founda lot of value in, and I'm
excited to keep growing andcultivating it and expanding my
capacity to do that, because itfeels more true to me like,
Yeah, talk about being with whatis? And what's true, that feels
(26:46):
more true to me than the pickone, you got to pick one,
Amy (26:53):
you know, right? Yeah, for me, I have experienced, anytime
I try to reject shame, silencemy inner child, it just
entrenches that thought stream.
Whereas if I go, wow, look atyou having that same pattern
(27:14):
that meant that you could feelokay, and like you would be
loved and accepted and belong,and learn as you have broken
down in previous shows. But Iwant to reiterate it here. These
are survival level patterns.
Because as human beings, we aremammals that are survive by way
(27:36):
of being a part of a group. Andso belonging is a survival
level. The stakes are survival.
And so it was life or death askids, and we took on ways of
being. And when I remember that,and I go, of course, you're
feeling triggered and activatedand upset, because you didn't do
the thing that you believed wasgoing to keep you safe. And
(27:56):
while that's not true, that'show it got wired into you. And
when I go, Oh, yes, here it is,again, we can be with it.
Sometimes it dissipatessometimes it's there and I just
get to stay with it. Buteventually it does dissipate. So
yes, that is the practice. Ioften times and you love
(28:18):
practice, and I love that youlove practice, because I've
begun to love practice. And I'verealized that all of life is
just practice. At some point, Ihad this like fantasy that it
would be like practicing forthem like performance, you know,
like, Oh, now I've got it. Allright. And I no longer hold that
fantasy. Even right would bepart of my old wiring. And yeah,
(28:43):
I want to bring up anothercontradiction that you helped me
see newly because I wonder ifyou could comment on this. I
just love I sometimes read thewords of experts and accept them
as the truth from up on themountain. It has been spoken.
And one of those people for meand she is amazing, because she
(29:07):
will say do not Pedesta lies me.
And I had put our dear Dr.
Shefali Sabari on a pedestal.
She's our conscious parentingteacher. And she had said in her
book and I have it highlightedthat love and fear cannot be
(29:28):
present in the same moment. AndI took that as a fact. And then
I brought that to you. Do youremember what you said?
Lauren (29:38):
No, I don't remember exactly what I said. But I
Amy (29:42):
can you comment on it.
Lauren (29:45):
I know I can always do that. I can. Um, yeah, so I what
I would say so now part of mymind is like what did I say? Can
I remember? Probably not. Butum, when I hear that quote love
and fear cannot coexist. So Ithink I said multiple things.
One, my personal preferred wayof viewing the world currently
(30:11):
is that everything exists insideof love that, like love is the
essence of everything. And thatI don't know if that sounds
weird and confusing sometimes.
Because, because it is becauseit is weird and confusing. I'm
just going to own that it's kindof weird and confusing and
(30:33):
mysterious. So for me, when I,when I think about that quote,
and I think about Dr. Shefali, Itranslate things to myself the
way that I like to translatethem, and that they make sense
to me. And if I'm aware of it, Ican hold space for the
possibility that they believethat they mean that maybe, maybe
Dr. Shefali means that exactlythat way and believes it, and
(30:54):
maybe in her experience, it'sone or the other, and they can't
coexist. You know, some peoplesay love casts out fear, like,
if you. And that's interestingto me for this conversation that
we're having right now. Becauseif I look inside myself, and I
think about my children, who Ilove, I would say I love my
(31:17):
children so deeply more than Ithought I was capable of loving.
And I have so much fear inrelation to my children, and
they don't feel mutuallyexclusive to me. I don't feel
like in one moment, I'm eitherloving my child, or acting from
fear and not love, not lovingthem, like pick one, which is
(31:42):
it, they pet can't both coexist.
For me, they coexist all thetime. I am aware of my fear and
aware of my love, where I mightbe able, like the bridge that
Dr. Shefali and I might be ableto build that we might both be
like, Yeah, this bridge worksfor both of us would be in a
(32:04):
moment when I choose to act if Iact from love, or is it an or
can I act from love and fear or,or and I guess even that I'm
like, it's it's not it's not oneor the other, it's there's so
(32:25):
much nuance there. Because likewhen my kids go for a bike ride
around the neighborhood, I'mafraid that a car is going to
hit them. And I love them. And Iwant them to have fun. And I
want them to get to ride theirbikes, and I want them to wear
their helmets and put them oncorrectly. And I want them to
look both ways. And I want like,I'm scared and I love them. And
(32:47):
I don't know, it just all existstogether for me. And if I own
that and acknowledge that, um,that feels more true to me.
Yeah.
Amy (32:58):
I love that. And I was busy at the time when I brought you
this profound quote, or insighttrying to live up to it and
trying to choose, am I in thismoment coming from love? Or am I
in this moment coming from fear?
How do I discern. And, to acertain extent, we can sometimes
(33:18):
see where fear can get in theway of the real big universal
love.
Lauren (33:29):
But for
Amy (33:30):
most of my experience as a human both can be present in the
same moment. And so I was sortof trying it on like a new coat,
you know, like, Okay, this isjust this is my love only coat,
I am no longer coming from fearbecause I now see that they
can't both be present. And Ichoose this. And it just felt
like the impossible. And now Ilike to and maybe it's the same
(33:55):
thing as saying that my myhigher self and my inner child
can be present at the samemoment because they can and and
so I just accept now that loveand fear are apart or they're
just in for me they're likeintertwined are, you know that
marbleized paper that you paperkind of art project? It's like
(34:18):
okay, so how are you going toseparate that out? Right? Like
that's not even yin and yangthat's just like a beautiful
blending of that creates a wholenew vivid experience of being
human. And for me, at leastwhere I am in my journey right
now. Both things can be presentat the same time in a way that
I'm just embracing is the beautyof the human experience. Sorry
(34:41):
to get all metaphorical andpoetic about it. That's your
job. Poetic, but I'm sorry. It'shard at sorry, but that's my
current experience of it. Andit's been. I think the reason I
feel like it's important tobring it up in this conversation
is because it's been so freeingfor me It feels much more. And I
(35:03):
at the same time, love, love,love, love, love, the power of
intention, like I can be clearabout my intention in the
moment. And I can choose to comefrom love. And that feels very
different from the people to thepeople around me, then choosing
to come from the fear, and ofcourse, all the other ways that
(35:23):
that might come to life, whichfor me usually is anger. And so
if I get really clear about myintentions, and where I want to
be coming from, I could chooselove in that way. And also, very
much still experienced that loveand fear can be present at the
same time, I wanted to share arecent experience that I had, I
(35:45):
share with you this. Could Ihave an inner child that learned
that doing things right, all thetime was the way to be safe, and
loved. And so sister in mypursuit of doing things, right,
I was not supposed to get COVID
Lauren (36:03):
Mm hmm,
Amy (36:04):
that would make me wrong and bad. Mm hmm. And recently,
Hey, guys, I got COVID. And partof my conviction that there was
a whole lot that came up aroundthat because I was also
vaccinated. So I had this storythat I did what I was supposed
to do, I wasn't supposed to getit. I had a lot of stories, you
(36:27):
guys. And it was, it wasdefinitely it rocked my world in
the sense that it brought up alot of stuff. I had to make a
list so I could sort it out inmy mind, because I kept feeling
like there were all these thingsthat it triggered. And there
were 30 things. And they rangefrom regret to fear to anger
(36:54):
about different dimensions ofit, and also gratitude. And so I
won't go through all 30 You'rewelcome. But bonus episode.
Yeah. All right. Here's anepisode of AV reading a list of
30 triggers from having hadCOVID. Okay, just kidding. If
(37:14):
you really need to know, if youyourself are struggling with
your experience of COVID justshoot me an email. And we will
talk I will share with you andcollaborate and commiserate and
unpack your stuff with you too.
But the part of this that Iwanted to share was just a
particular moment where I wasaware of both love and fear
occurring in the same momentwhere, so to my also, horror,
(37:35):
fear, shame, self blame all ofthose things that came up my I
gave it to my daughter. So of myfour kids, my six year old got
it. And it was, I mean, that inand of itself was was was was
traumatizing. She's my kid hashad more health problems. And
(38:01):
she was the last one that youknow, I would want to have get
it. And as she progressedthrough it she you couldn't even
tell she was sick. I mean, shejust sailed through it. And so I
was having these feelings ofgratitude of like, wow, look at
(38:21):
the resilience that my daughterhas me is showing me after
having been I've spoken abouther on the show before she was
hospitalized for pneumonia. Sothey assured me that her lungs
have healed but then she getsCOVID and all of that fear comes
right back right back like itwas yesterday. And then I'm
seeing her sort of in the 10days that we were together
(38:48):
alone. She's thriving. Not onlythat, I'm having so much
gratitude for all of this one onone time, but don't get with her
because she's in school eighthours a day. And, and at the
same time, the very same time isfeeling this gratitude. I'm
feeling brokenhearted at whatmissing our four year old son
(39:10):
and my husband and other humansand starting to feel I mean dace
eight, nine and 10 it wasdepression was what I was
feeling and at the same time I'mtreasuring this time with my
daughter. So I'm was very muchin this simultaneously feeling
(39:30):
gratitude for her resilience andgratitude for our time together,
and sadness at the missing ofother people. And at at the just
really I think that kind ofisolation for humans is on a
visceral level can make you feelreally sad and disconnected and
(39:53):
all of that was just present atthe same time and that feels
like it maps back to love,gratitude is sort of hand in
hand with love, and, and fearand sadness and loss, you know.
So that was my recent experienceof all the things occurring at
once in a previous a pastversion of me, rather than
(40:15):
writing down 30 triggers wouldhave tried to boil down this
entire experience to one thing.
So I would have one, oneinterpretation, one clear
interpretation of like what thisall meant, and it was just,
obviously, that would be afool's errand, there was so much
here to unpack in over 10 days,the experience, morphed and
(40:37):
transformed. But now I canembrace that it was so many
things, I couldn't keep themstraight in my mind, and I had
to put them on paper. And thenonce I did that, and you guys
know, I resist journaling, like,like, like, that's like I but I
have started. And when I do, I'mreally grateful that I do and
now they're on paper, and Icould sort of look at it and see
(40:59):
it, and it somehow doesn't liveinside of me in the same way. Mm
hmm. Yeah.
Lauren (41:05):
Yeah, that's what I recently thing. Yeah. That's one
of my favorite things aboutwriting things down. When I
write things down, and I can seethem outside of myself, it
creates a little bit of space,and a little bit of opportunity
for a different perspective,because when they're all
swirling around inside me, they,to some degree, feel like they
(41:29):
are me, and I am them. Whateverthey are, whatever swirling
around inside me, it is me I amit to a degree, like, that's my
internal experience of mergingwith whatever is inside me. If I
put it on the paper, create alittle space, it opens up
options for my relationship withthose parts of my experience.
(41:52):
And I love that, and I love Ilove you sharing and describing
how all of those things could bepresent. And I think it's so
amazing, Amy, Amy amazing,amazing, Amy I love that's my my
nickname is Amy zing, amazing.
Anyway, I just think it's soamazing that you wrote them all
down, and you acknowledge youwere able to acknowledge them
(42:18):
all hold space for them allThat's so incredible to me. And
something that I'm continuing towork towards and build my
ability to do because, you know,the more space we can create, to
see all the parts of ourselvesmore clearly, and hold space for
it and allow it all to exist. Ifeel like the greater access we
(42:42):
have to wholeness. And one ofthe one of my thoughts for this
episode was talking about theboth and contradictions and
quote, clarity. What is clarity?
Well, old me thought clarity wasgetting clear about the one
thing that is true and all theother things that are false. And
(43:02):
yes, I would get so excited whenthere were certain elements of
my life that felt clear in thatway. Like I know this and
everything else. No, yes to thiseverything else. No yay,
clarity. I did it. And then allthese other areas. I'd be like,
I'm a mess. I'm a disaster. I'mconfused. What is it? Is it
(43:23):
this? Or is it this? Is it thatit doesn't make sense? Is this
normal? What's wrong with me?
And now I'm building this newrelationship with quote,
clarity, as a way to see clearlywhat is. And sometimes it's 30
things.
Amy (43:40):
Yeah.
Lauren (43:42):
I love that. so amazing that, you know,
Amy (43:45):
I have I've also embraced that. Yeah. But sometimes
clarity is just seeing that it'snot clear. That was the way I
related to having come throughCOVID is that it actually, and
(44:07):
I'm, I'm, I'm sure that I'llcontinue to unpack it, because
it brought up to the surfacestuff. I'm actually sort of
grateful for the lack of clarityit brought up because I related
to it, sort of like a mud puddlewhere a bunch of stuff I hadn't
dealt with had sunk to thebottom. And so it's settled. You
know, like, the dirt kind ofsettles to the bottom and it
(44:29):
looks clear, but it's still amud puddle. And COVID was that
stick that went in there andstart it back up. So it's like,
ooh, hold on. I sort of had,quote unquote, clarity, because
I wasn't seeing these otherparts of my experience that
hadn't been healed yet. So yeah,because it went to the core. I
(44:51):
mean, it brought up for me thatand we'll talk about this in
future episodes because you guyswere really excited to talk
about death. So this will be ayes. I mean, maybe you guys
aren't, but you will be when webring it on the show, because
it's super important. But yeah,I mean, when you when I got a
(45:12):
COVID, like it even brought upfor me, this feeling of oh, but
I'm, first of all, I'm notsupposed to get this. So I'm
angry and filled with like,indignation. And then literally
right now as I speak to you onthis podcast sitting here
drinking my green shake, and I'msupposed to be so healthy, that
(45:36):
I'm not supposed to get thatsick from this. And that was not
what I experienced in reality.
And so it made me feel reallymortal. Like, ooh, even my
immune system isn't as good aswhat I thought it was supposed
to be. And now I'm confrontingwhat that means, right? You can
make up this fiction of like,almost, that you're so healthy,
that your immune system would beso great that you would be
(45:56):
untouchable. And that somehow isthis fiction that's going to
protect you from death. And thenit's actually the experience
taught me something else. Soit's very humbling.
Lauren (46:08):
Absolutely. And I would say, similarly paralleling my
experience with the feedbackthat I received last night, it
reconnected me to what is truefor me, which is my attachment
to the fantasy that I have takenall these classes and learned
(46:31):
all these skills and trainedwith masters and gurus and I can
show up and see people clearlyand understand them and hear
them no matter what they'resaying. And I can reflect back,
clearly, and I can do this, andI will do it right that that
invincibility piece that like Ihave graduated and evolved, and
(46:52):
I've transcended that lowerlevel where I make mistakes,
and, you know, to be reminded ofmy humanity, and my mortality,
and my, you know, nobody can getit right all the time. And the
desire to do so is a way to tryto seek safety and security and
(47:15):
avoid death, whether it'sphysical death or social death,
right. And they're intertwined,like you were talking about
earlier. And we've talked aboutthis before, because human
infants, toddlers, children knowthat their status in the tribe
is directly correlated withwhether they're going to be kept
alive or not. And so, you know,they're that sense of belonging,
(47:38):
connection with other humans, isa survival level of threat. And
so when I face the fact that Iam not gonna please, all my
clients, I'm not going to get itright. They could reject me,
they could say, You know what,you didn't see me you didn't
understand me, you didn't hearme, I don't want to talk to you
anymore. And on some level, mynervous system reacts to that
(47:59):
with oh, God, I'm gonna die.
Yeah, this is it. This is thething we've been avoiding, you
know, part of part of why I'm soexcited to talk about death. And
as I hear myself say that I'mlike, Lauren, do you want to put
a dose of maybe sensitivity ontop of that, because death. So
the the part of me that soexcited to talk about death and
(48:23):
wants to be like death, thatthat, that that that part of me
is very aware of the ways inwhich I have historically
avoided death wanted to keepdeath hidden. Like some people
talk about how in our modernwesternized society, we're no
longer confronted with death, ona daily basis, the way humans
(48:45):
were in the past. Now, deathhappens in hospitals, you know,
hidden, whereas in the past,everybody was a part of it. And
there were death rituals, andbirth rituals, and the entire
life cycle was experienced andcelebrated and mourned. And it
(49:05):
was all part of thisinterconnected web of like full
human experience that was sharedcollectively. And now we have
the option to ignore death,avoid death, pretend it doesn't
exist, try to come up with waysthat we can be the ones to evade
(49:26):
it, you know, and yeah, for me,running away from death is not
the same as running towardslife. And my intention for
myself, my desire, thetransformation I'm seeking, is
to more and more choose to runtowards life and fully embrace
(49:49):
life, which for me, includesembracing death as part of life,
rather than trying to run awayfrom death and then
unconsciously, also running awayfrom life.
Amy (50:04):
I love that this is the the kind of final theme that we're
bringing into this conversationbecause it's the ultimate. It's
the ultimate articulation of howto think both. And it's like
life and death. embracing liferequires us to embrace death. So
(50:26):
one isn't against the other,it's all part of the experience.
And we'll leave, we'll leavesome further discussion of this
will deep dive on this in a soonto come episode, but I just I
love that, even as you are ourteacher of the both and in the
holding the contradiction thatthat you can can can also bring
(50:50):
such a profound, specificexample of how life and death
must both be held together.
Lauren (50:58):
So, yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely one of the
things that feels most alive forme these days. And as I noticed
myself saying the word alive,you know, death feels alive to
me right now, in terms of that,that contradiction, that paradox
that I think life is, and I'lljust kind of wrap up by inviting
(51:22):
listeners, if you want to, ifthis is of interest to you, to
invite yourself to notice if andwhen you're feeling or
experiencing multiple thingsthat feel contradictory. And if
you have had experiences likeAmy and I, where you feel this
compulsion to have to choose oneand reject the other, if I'm
(51:45):
grateful, I can't be angry. IfI'm disappointed, I can't also
be accepting of what happened orif I you know, whatever those
might be for you. Because I havereally benefited from inviting
myself to explore and noticethose things. And so I would
(52:05):
love to leave that invitationfor all of you as well.
Amy (52:10):
Beautiful. I love it. I have loved this conversation
listeners. We hope that you haveto. And if there's anyone else
that you feel could benefit fromhearing this conversation and
embracing the contradictions intheir life. We would love it if
(52:33):
you could share this podcastpass it on. Thank you so much
for listening.
Lauren (52:38):
Thank you
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