70: Authentic Connection: What's Possible in Relationships if We Bring Our Whole Selves

Inspired by Eckhart Tolle’s book, A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life’s Purpose, Amy and Lauren explore the idea of authentic connection. We discuss how the roles we inhabit and the stories we construct around who we are “supposed” to be can hold us back from deeper connection. Joined by Lauren’s husband and life partner, Brett, we delve into what it means to be truly authentic, in our relationships and within ourselves.

In this episode we talk about:

• Lauren and Brett’s love story, their struggles along the way, and the transformation inside their relationship towards more authentic connection. 
• How our relationships with others also includes our relationship with ourselves.
• How we can let go of the mental constructs and false stories we develop around our relationships and the roles we are “supposed to” play, by giving ourselves permission to choose what we want rather than what we think we have to.
• That showing up authentically isn’t always a happy or easy conversation, but ultimately can lead to deeper, more fulfilling relationships. 
• That when you’re disconnected from yourself and your truth, you’re also disconnected from others.

Episode Transcript

Amy (00:04):
We believe life can be a journey toward wholeness, toward
reconnecting with who we areauthentically meant to be. We
walk this path of growth anddiscovery with our children,
with our partners withinourselves. These are the stories
of what's possible. These arethe conversations that light the

(00:28):
way. Welcome to soul pathparenting. So, shall we,

Lauren (00:35):
yes, I'm excited. I'm super excited. Now I want to be
like, I'm so excited. And like,I know I'm making fun of myself
recently for like the everyepisode. I'm like, I'm so
excited. Amy. I'm so excited.
Amy. And this today, I am sofreaking excited.

Amy (00:51):
So you totally know that that's how we're starting the
pie. We

Lauren (00:54):
have to get out.

Amy (00:56):
This is how we're beginning y'all. Okay, Olivia. Okay,
listeners we are, we are soexcited. We could just do a
Flash Dance right now. And weare here to talk about authentic
connection, and I have a specialguest. And we're gonna leave

(01:16):
that a little cliffhanger andintroduce our special guest
momentarily. But before we getto that, we wanted to set up why
we're here and what we'retalking about. And I have been
rereading. Eckhart Tolle is anew earth, which is just a
profoundly, it's just a lifechanging book. That's all it's

(01:38):
really a profound spiritual bookthat I've been called back to
reread. And there's a section,page 93, if you have it and want
to follow along at home, thattalks about roles. And I came to
Lauren, and read her part ofthis. And from there, she said,

(01:59):
Oh, my gosh, we have to do awhole episode on this, this is
such a great topic. So thesection about roles, he starts
out talking about, if we'reawake enough and aware enough,
we can actually observe how weinteract differently with
different people. Right, somaybe I show up and interact a
certain way with Lauren. Andmaybe I interact a little bit

(02:21):
differently with a bank teller,or the CEO of the company I used
to work for, or my child. And sothose those differences in our
ways of being and how we, wespeak from a different place.
Those are the roles we'replaying, they're not ourselves.

(02:41):
And what he says is that insteadof human beings, conceptual
mental images are interactingwith each other. So the more
people are identified with thatrole, the more and authentic the
relationship becomes. So that'sthe jumping off part. And then

(03:01):
there's sort of the thequintessential paragraph that I
thought drove at home, Lauren,do you want to share this idea
or?

Lauren (03:10):
Yes, word. So the reason I'm jumping out of my seat
excited right now, okay. There'smultiple reasons. I noticed. I
said the reason there's multipleone is, this is my life's work.
Everyone authentic connection,is why I'm here. So I'm like
full body tingling with like,yes, let's do an episode about

(03:30):
this. Let's talk about this.
This is why I'm here. WhatEckhart is describing in this
chapter of this gorgeous book,which includes the statement
that every egoic interactionbetween two people is, in
reality, the interaction betweenfour conceptual, mind made

(03:51):
identities that are ultimatelyfictions, they're not real.
realness is like my thing. Like,I want to be real, I want to
become real. I want other peopleto be real. And I have grown up
in a world where that is not thenorm. That is not the norm. I'm,

(04:14):
I was unconsciously for such along time. And now I consciously
do this which Eckhart has abeautiful article does waking
up, make everything worse, it'ssomething like that, I'm gonna
have to find it, whatever itreally is. But like once you
start realizing these things,sometimes they feel worse before
they feel better. I used tounconsciously interact as my

(04:36):
mental construct or in young inpsychology, my persona, what I
wanted to present to the world,I was trying to play that role
while I was interacting withwhat my mind was imagining the
other person was supposed to bedoing, and how I was
interpreting what they weredoing, and the actual connection

(04:56):
between actual me and the actualother person didn't exist. And
this is what I think Eckhart istalking about in this chapter.
So Amy, when you brought this tome, I got so excited. I was
like, yes, yes, yes, I want totalk about this. And I want to
talk about it with my partner.

(05:18):
So I invited Brett, my husbanddoesn't do it justice. That's
part of the construct. And I'msure that'll be part of this
conversation. But he is my lifepartner. He's in the muck and
the mess with me every singleday. And we are waking up
together. And he's here to bepart of this conversation,

(05:41):
because I can't imagine talkingabout this topic. Without you.
Welcome, Brett.

Brett (05:46):
Thank you. Yay, welcome.
As we say, I am so excited to behere.

Unknown (05:52):
That it is what we say here, isn't it?

Lauren (05:54):
That is what we say. And today it is so true. But I'm not
saying it's not been true. Othertimes. This is exactly the
thing, though, like this is agreat example, because I observe
myself now. So a past version ofme might not have even noticed
that every episode, I say, I'mso excited to be here, Amy, I'm

(06:15):
so excited to be here. But now Iobserve myself, I have an inner
observer. And then when I startrepeating the same thing, it
reminds me of all the ways in mylife that I have, like become
self conscious, or try to besomething. And so I'm so excited
to talk about this in terms ofBrett and my relationship

(06:38):
evolution. We have been togetherfor 20 years, 20 and a half
years, I'm always like, how longis it exactly. And we have grown
up together so much. And it'sfascinating to me to think back
to the roles. Like if you thinkabout falling in love and all

(06:58):
the stereotypes and all thesocietal roles, like I already
want to launch into a story.
Should I just launch into astory, everybody?

Amy (07:05):
Well, I do I want to hear the story. And I also, I think
it might be great for Brett tointroduce a tiny bit of himself.
And one of the things that I washoping you could talk about. So
maybe share a little bit aboutyourself. And you mentioned when
we were prepping for thismoments ago, that you had an

(07:27):
equation for this idea of liketwo people our inauthentic self
and our projection of the otherperson meeting the other in
authentic self and projectionthat you turn that into
equation. So I'd love for you toalso talk about that.

Brett (07:44):
Yeah, so as learn learns, they don't like to dive into
this. Just like the quotesaying, I'll describe some of my
roles to explain myself. Yeah.
Beautiful. You know, I'm a, I'ma husband, I'm a father. I am a
computer programmer, which withthat comes a mathematical brain,
my brain wants to find findpatterns, it wants to, you know,

(08:04):
figure out how to write anequation for everything. One of
many, many things that learnedand I would argue about early
on, when we were you know,getting to know ourselves and
each other better is to say,Well, you did this, that means I
should do this. And she'd belike, I'm not an equation. Like
no in my brain would be like anequation how will I figure you
out? If you're not an equation Ineed you to be X plus Y equals z

(08:25):
or else I'm never gonna get Yes.

Unknown (08:29):
If This Then That.

Brett (08:32):
So specifically with what we're talking about with the
with Eckhart Tolle is talkingabout it wasn't exactly the way
he describes it, but I wassitting, you know, in our living
room one day just thinking like,Gosh, why is it so hard to be in
relationship with people, and Istarted thinking about, like,
when I'm talking to any oneperson, it's not one
relationship in that room,there's three, it's my

(08:53):
relationship with myself, theirrelationship with themselves,
and then our relationship witheach other. And then if you add
a third person in, you've gotthree different one to one
relationships, and then threerelationships of each person
with themselves. So it's like,how could I quantify this
mathematically, and I wish I hadit in front of me, it's some
ridiculous equation like numberof people two n minus two power
over and or something like that.
I was like, I filled up ourwhiteboard with this proof of

(09:15):
how it was, you know, this ishow many relationships are in a
room based on the number ofpeople there. And it just was
just mind blowing to me withthis idea that you know, you can
have, you know, our family offour has like 12 relationships
going on at all times. There'sonly four people how does this
work? But it just Yeah, madesense to me. Oh, this is why
it's so hard. It's not just forrelationships going on this

(09:38):
house. We're managing like atribe with the four of us.

Amy (09:44):
I love that. That's so beautiful. Anything else Brett
so you may know Lauren can shecan tell a story. And so we're
gonna do that next but beforethat, this is your chance.
Anything else you want to say?
As a We set things up here.

Brett (10:01):
Oh boy. Yeah, see once once I get going as well, I am
sorry in advance because I knowyou probably sometimes find it
hard to get a word in with justLauren. But once both of us get,
you're really gonna have aproblem. Getting any words?
Yeah,

Amy (10:17):
it's not a problem. I lived in Spain for a couple years. And
I like to say that I learnedcompetitive talking there.
Because you literally will saynothing unless you interrupt.
And it's actually not a virtuein normal life in America, but
it might be on this podcast. Soin this conversation with you
guys, so yeah,

Brett (10:37):
yeah, I mean, just to kind of talk about myself and
maybe even some of my journey alittle bit more, you know, I've,
I was very lucky to one day,have an amazing woman, knock on
my door and asked me to pleasego out with her. That's the
short version of it. All right,if that's your cute, we had kind
of met before, but the officiallike, you know, first time we
really did anything together wasa friend of mine knocked on my

(10:59):
door in college. And as acollege male does, I was playing
video games at the time. And hesaid, Do you want to go see Save
the Last Dance with us? And Iimmediately was like, no,
because I didn't want to seethat movie. And then Lauren
poked her head and said, Pleasego out with us. And I looked at
and I said, Okay, and so we wentoff to a movie. And there's,

(11:19):
there's a lot of history fromthere that we could, you know,
probably talk for seven hourson, we'll break this into six or
seven part episode here. Yeah,at that point in my life, you
know, I was, I was social to adegree, I had a lot of, you
know, female friends, but I'dnever dated anyone. So I didn't
know how to deal with this newidea of being with someone you

(11:42):
know, more than just pals. And Iimmediately kept and have still
to this day, Ben through aseries of I didn't know it could
get this good. Like coming froma family that's very closed off
with emotions. Emotions arealmost kind of forbidden,
because it breaks the control ofthe situation to, oh, well,
someone wants to know, me wantsto know, my emotions, oh, I have

(12:02):
emotion. That's interesting.
Let's learn about that. Andevery step along the way, it's
never easy. You, you go down tothe bottom to a new basement
every time before you build anew top floor. But it's like,
wow, I didn't know it could bethis good as I continue to grow.
And Lauren continues to grow.
And her journey and our journeytogether continues to grow. And
we've added two amazing childreninto the mix that we grow with

(12:23):
them. And I feel very lucky tolook back at the past almost 21
years of my life and just seehow constant it is. If I didn't
know it could get this good.

Unknown (12:35):
Wow, that gave me goosebumps. That's beautiful.

Lauren (12:39):
It's so beautiful. So excited, everybody. Um, yes,
this is this is so fun. I haveso many stories that are, you
know, coming alive.

Amy (12:54):
Yes. Now, now it's your turn Lauren, take it away.

Lauren (12:59):
And I really want to talk about the kind of both and
and I want to keep trying tohighlight that along the way.
Because I both knew from a youngage that I wanted something
different than what I wasexperiencing. And I was
conditioned, I was unconscious,I was playing roles and

(13:19):
following scripts and not evenrealizing it. And those things
were happening concurrently. Soin some moments, I was
interesting and exciting anddifferent than what was
happening around me. And I feltauthentic in a way. And then in
so many other moments that thosesame stages of life. For me, I

(13:40):
was caught up in all of thethings that I'm going to be
pointing at and identifying asinauthentic. And so it's
interesting for me to justnotice how authentic and
inauthentic aren't somethingfixed and static that you just
are all the time in any givenmoment. In this conversation, I

(14:06):
will be both I will be both andthat's fascinating to me, as I
think back on, as I think aboutEckart Tolle A's description of
these mental constructs that areinteracting with each other, and
the lack of a real relationshipbecause a real relationship
would be real me interactingwith real you, right? But what

(14:29):
most of us are doing involvesome version of well, this
version of me is the versionthat I need to bring to this
situation. And this is theversion of you that you're
supposed to bring. And they getto interact, and it's not quite
satisfying. And you know,there's because one of the lines

(14:49):
from the quote we were sharingsays No wonder there's so much
conflict in relationships. Andso that makes me think of one of
our early fights. That I thinkis just such a great A story to
share. So different than Brett,I had done quite a bit of dating
before. I saw Brett on a stageduring a talent show and asked

(15:15):
my roommate if she knew who thatguy was. And then he became the
next person that I was curiousabout, and

Unknown (15:23):
what was the talent.

Lauren (15:25):
He was performing in an SNL style skits as Sean Connery.
And I, I thought he nailed it.
So and I was also just thatenergetic magnetism. Like we've
had conversations about the factthat there were at least half a
dozen guys up on that stage. Andfor whatever reason, I was like,

(15:46):
Who's that one? That one? I wantto know that one. And so, so I
did. And one of the things thathappened, so we start dating.
Well, that's a funny story, too.
There's just so many funnystories. I love all of our
stories. But we'll skip thatone. For now, though, like, how

(16:06):
we went from like, Are wedating? Are we not dating?
What's happening here? So we'redating, I'm

Unknown (16:11):
not sure you can skip it now? Well, can we come back
to it? At least

Lauren (16:15):
you know, it, and we can edit it out if this is like four
hours long this episode. So Sobecause this is just another,
there's so many great examples.
I mean, we kind of just wentthrough the like, we started
hanging out, or we just friendswere flirting, you know, we end
up kissing. And then there's thefollow up conversations that

(16:37):
sometimes happen and sometimesdon't, right. So it my
experiences, I kissed a lot ofpeople before Brett, and didn't
have follow up conversations todiscuss what that meant. Or
didn't mean, when, after Brettand I kissed I wanted that
conversation, I initiated thatconversation. And at first we

(16:58):
agreed we were dating but notexclusively. And then we
eventually progressed toexclusively. But what I was kind
of laughing about in my mind wasactually what came before the
kiss, which were the likemissteps between us because
Brett wasn't reading my cues theway that I wanted and expected
him to he thought I was justnice and friendly. He couldn't

(17:20):
tell that I was trying to cocreate something more. And so I
had to get pretty direct. Andand hold on.

Amy (17:33):
Let me pause there and ask Brett so because there's not an
equation for that apparently,like what what was going on with
you?

Brett (17:40):
Oh, there was a very specific equation for me in that
one, my life. Up till that pointwhere anyone I was interested in
was not interested in me, youknow, whether it be, you know,
my caretakers growing up didn'tshare the interest in me that I
would want them to take, orgirls that I was interested in
dating up to that point, I likedthem. And they just wanted to be

(18:01):
friends. So I came to theconclusion that people that
showed interest to me were justnice people that that were nice
to everybody. It was nothingspecific about me. So even
though I you know, had what Iguess you would call a crush or
more for Lauren, it was like,Yeah, but my equation tells me
she's just friendly. She's likethis with everyone. She just

(18:22):
wants to be friends. Lookingback on it, my equation was
clearly flawed. And her signswere pretty to the point where
they were too obvious to ignore.
But yeah, it was. My pastexperiences led me to think
that, you know, this was nothingdifferent than what I had
already experienced up till thatpoint in my life.

Lauren (18:43):
It's a great example of how those mental constructs get
developed. Is that where you'regonna say me?

Amy (18:48):
Yeah, it's actually one of the key distinctions in the
landmark forum that I talk aboutis how we put our past into our
future. So we end up recreatingthe patterns in our lives,
because the thing that happensin the past becomes the
expectation of the future. Andthat's how we limit ourselves

(19:10):
basically. But Lauren, was thereman ready? She got there for
you.

Lauren (19:14):
Exactly same well, and I was gonna say something similar
to what you just said, Amy. AndI like how you said it. Our past
experiences teach us about whatto expect to try to keep
ourselves safe. You know,there's an element of that too,
like if the past experiencesYeah, to repeatedly go this way.

(19:34):
If I expect that, then I won'tbe disappointed or surprised.
But I don't realize I'munconsciously co creating that.
And we've Brett and I havelaughed about the fact that if I
hadn't been so persistent and soconfident in some ways, and I
don't want to be too, my ego.
I'm a bit of an egomaniac, but,but I do look back and I do Part

(19:58):
of me wants to give myselfcredit for the fact that, like,
I kept pursuing a guy who waskind of dismissing my signals.
But there was a part of me andI, maybe it was intuition. I
like to think it was partintuition. I also, I had dated,
if what felt to me like a lotalready, I started dating pretty

(20:23):
young. And I had dated a lot. SoI had built up some resilience.
And, and part of me could senseI was like, I feel like he likes
me. But then he's acting like hedoesn't. Or, you know, we were
hanging out as a group with ourother friends. And then we came
back to campus, and I invitedeveryone back to my room to

(20:46):
watch a movie, and everyone elsehad plans, and we're busy. And
in that moment, you rememberwhat you said, Brett, cuz I, I
can say it for you. But youremember what you said,

Brett (20:59):
Oh, yeah. So nobody else took it up. So I figured, well,
she clearly, you know, isn'tasking for me. So I'll give her
an out here. And I was like,yeah, no, I'm just gonna go back
to my room and do nothing.
Pretty. And

Lauren (21:14):
that he had nothing to do. Like, if I had interpreted
that as, and I think in themoment, I literally looked at
him and said out loud, so you'drather go back to your room and
do nothing, then come watch amovie with me? And then he was
like, Oh, I guess I'll go, then.
I guess not really. I'll go withyou. Or was it something like
that?

Brett (21:35):
Yeah, I mean, that is almost word for word, what you
just said, Yeah. And, you know,at that point, as I look back on
it, my like, fragile lack ofself confidence in that moment
was like, Well, I'm not gonnasay what I really want here, but
I will leave a hook out therethat she can, you know, throw a
sort of rope onto and hook meback in. You know, cuz if I just

(21:56):
if I took the call, and I've gottons of homework to do, then she
might not have, you know, said,Oh, well, why not? How about you
just still do it. But you know,saying, I've got nothing to do
left a hook for her to maybeprove me wrong. But I didn't
have the self confidence to justbe like, yeah, just me. Let's go
do this. Let's go watch a movie.

Amy (22:14):
Yeah, and I love how even just this early example of your
relationship shows how there'smultiple sort of these
inauthentic roles andprojections, because already,
you're like, well, there's whatI want. And then there's what
I'm actually doing. And then I'mthrowing her a hook to grab on

(22:34):
to. And so then you had tochoose Lauren, between these
different roles, it seems to me

Lauren (22:43):
exactly right. And so in that moment, if my expectation
if my mental construct had beentelling me, oh, he doesn't want
to be alone with me, then Imight have interpreted the I'll
just go back to my room and donothing as him being rude or,
like, you know, no hard pass,you know, I could have

(23:06):
interpreted it that way, ifthat's what my story had
suggested. But I was, I wasflabbergasted like most of the
guys that I paid attention to,were very happy to go back to my
room and be alone with me now,did they call me the next day?
Not always, you know. So, like,that was, what they were

(23:26):
interested in, and howinterested they were varied
widely. But you know, when I wasin college, and I invited a guy
back to my room, they usuallywent. And, and I don't even say
that to try to again, I'm like,aware of how conceited that
could sound. But I'm also tryingto take a cartes challenge of
allowing my ego to look bad,like allowing myself to look

(23:51):
bad. One of the other thingsEckart talks so beautifully
about is how we want to maintainlike I, my ego, right now wants
to try to control how ourlisteners perceive me. And so if
I give myself permission, andthis is exactly what I think
Eckhart is talking about, andwhat authentic connection

(24:11):
includes, if I give myselfpermission to say, you know,
what, nine out of 10 guys that Iinvited back to my room went
with me, and the fact that thisguy was like, I'd rather go do
nothing. I was like, what, thatis not what I'm used to. You're
really You mean that? And thenhe changed his answer. And he
went with me, but I did havethis weird like, does he really

(24:33):
want to be here? Now? I'mconfused what is happening, you
know, and so it it definitelyaffected us and that was kind of
the rocky start to ourrelationship. Like, is he just
being nice now? I called himout. You'd rather do nothing and
then spend time with me? And washis truth like crap? Yes, but
that's sounds rude. Nevermind,I'll go with you. Like I didn't

(24:55):
know. I didn't know exactly howto interpret him and he didn't
know it. exactly how tointerpret me because we're not
equations. And we had thesestories, we had these ideas. So
that's just one example of somany with how we, you know, made
our way to a relationship witheach other. That was varying

(25:18):
degrees of authentic.

Amy (25:20):
Yeah, and I want to pile on here with, because you had
inspired me to. You've inspiredme in so many ways over the last
year and something really, and Ijust, I feel like I am also
listening to this invitationfrom Eckhart, but it first came
from you to say things in thatwere true and authentic, that

(25:44):
aren't necessarily me lookinggood. So, by the way back on the
whole, like, if a guy had toldme in college that they'd rather
do nothing, I would have takenhim at his word and been like,
wow, okay, my pattern in mystory was, I will be rejected.
That's what happened from thetime I was born in my dynamic
with my dad. And so my patternwas okay, you will reject me,

(26:07):
oh, here we go. This is this isjust evidence of me, again,
putting my past into the future.
And that story is not authenticor real in terms of what's
occurring between two humans.
But for sure, that's where Iwould have gone with it. And in
the context of the podcast, thevery first interview that you
and I had Lauren, you showed up,really talking about a past

(26:29):
version of yourself, that therewere, there was pain there. And
a lot of it had been workedthrough and processed, and you
talked about it so beautifully.
But I just remember early on inour journey, even a recording
together, like I only wanted toshow up as joy, rather than
sadness. We've talked about thatdimension of the characters in

(26:50):
what's the movie, inside outwhat's

Brett (26:55):
inside out? Yeah, inside out. And

Amy (26:58):
through the conversations that we've been having. I have
also been stepping into with youas a role model of how I can
talk about the things who, who Iam what I do what I've done in
ways that are much more realversus my attachment to looking
good. And even this morning, Iwas working out with my personal

(27:19):
trainer, see, here I go, yo, I'mgoing to admit, I have a
personal trainer, which makes mewant to crawl under my desk,
because that's a huge privilege.
And she, we were talking aboutanger. And she's like, and we're
talking about the fire breathingdragon that sometimes is present
when I am angry. And she's like,Well, do you still get angry?
And I was like, How do I answerthis question? Because there's

(27:39):
the part of me that wants to belike, that lid wants to live
inside of this fiction of like,I have banished anger for all
time. And then there's the otherpart of me that's like, it is so
much more helpful for me to knowa human who is a work in
progress, because that isactually the only real thing you
never get done. And so I waslike, Girl, of course, I still
get angry. And here's how itshows up and talked about just

(28:01):
how that is in my life. And it'stransforming. But I feel like
it's an active verb, not a like,final point in time. So anyways,
back to you and authenticconnection.

Lauren (28:16):
No, and I love that I love what you just shared,
because it's just one moreexample. Every moment, we have
an opportunity. And I mean, somemoments are more obvious than
others. So when your personaltrainer asked you, do you still
get angry? You had a momentwhere you had a choice? Do I
want to allow my ego to try tocontrol this situation? And

(28:40):
control how I answer and try tocontrol how I'm perceived? Or do
I just want to say what'sfucking true for me right now
and say it however I fucking sayit, and allow it to be like,
allow it to be true outside ofmyself. Like it's already true
inside of myself. And that's myjourney. Like, that's my

(29:04):
journey. That's mytransformation. That's like my,
my being is about giving myselfpermission to take what's true
inside whether I reveal it ornot, whether I own it or not,
you know, and I've got mysynthesizing brain pulling all
these different things that I'velearned over the course of this

(29:28):
journey. Brene Brown talks aboutthe importance of owning our
stories. And I parallel thatwith Glennon Doyle, talking
about taking what's inside of usand expressing it outside of us
and I parallel both of those.
With this intrinsic desire I'vealways had to share what is
actually true and for others todo the same. So we can be real

(29:56):
with each other and then we canbe authentically can because we
can't be authenticallyconnected. Otherwise, if I let
my ego and I've done it, I'vedone it everywhere in my life
with Brett. Everywhere, I'vesometimes my ego jumps in and
says, No, we got to controlthis, we got to try to manage
how we're being perceived. We'vegot a blah, blah, blah, blah,

(30:19):
blah, and then it creates thatgap. And that disconnect, and I
and I think Brett was speakingto this earlier, then I'm
disconnected from myself and mytruth, and I'm disconnected from
the other. And that's when we'vegot all these mental constructs
interacting with each other, andno real authentic humans
actually connected to eachother.

Brett (30:45):
When I'll kind of tie this back to something at the
beginning of this conversation,I'll hop on the praising Lauren
train on this podcast. You knowwhat,

Unknown (30:54):
apparently, that's a thing I do.

Lauren (30:57):
Thank goodness, I'm an ego. You just a love is real.
You're just go for it.

Brett (31:03):
That's fine. But we're talking at the beginning, about
how about how Lauren comes ontothese episodes, and she's
excited, and I get to see herbefore she records and after she
records. And I'm always takenaback by how honest that is.
Like, she allows herself toenter a situation feeling how

(31:24):
she's feeling. And there isstill a part of me to this day,
you know, being a person who hasI want to say like 2020 plus
years in recovery, of trying tofit into a box all the time of
allowing herself to enter asituation being open and honest
with how she feels aboutentering that situation. You
know, if we talk about what wewere just saying about my
response to her inviting me backto her room, my real response

(31:47):
was, yes, let's go. And but myresponse outward was not that
because I did not at all feelsafe to be authentic and present
myself into that conversationwith my real self. I was in self
preservation mode. And trying toescape there is one of my
lifelong journeys. And I'mcontinue to awed by how Lauren

(32:08):
is able to do that.

Lauren (32:10):
So beautiful. Yeah.
Yeah, so I kind of want to fastforward but just a little bit.
So Breton, I clunkily,awkwardly, and then also with me
being very direct. We startdating, we get together, we
start having a relationship, andthen my expectations are still
continuing to go unmet. WhichI'll tell you kind of fascinated

(32:32):
me about Brett like one of thethings that were different for
me, because of the amount ofdating that I had done was he
was not feeding me bullshit. Hewas not saying he was not
following the script. I haddated a lot of guys that knew
their lines. They had dated alot of girls, I had dated a lot

(32:55):
of guys, we knew the lines. Weknew phase one of the dating
game, where you pretend that theother person is the most
magical, unique, fascinating,physically attractive human
you've ever seen and ever willsee. And this facade can be very
fun to participate in. I'venever felt this way before. I've

(33:16):
never seen anyone as gorgeous asyou before. And like, I'm an
egomaniac, y'all. But I am. I amnot stereotypically gorgeous. I
know that. Like whatever thatmeans. Like I don't. Part of me
knew that. That was a game thatwe were playing. Like, you're so
attractive. You're the mostattractive human I've ever seen.

(33:39):
I am clearly not I have seen 100Way more attractive humans than
me. And I can admit and ownthat. And 100 is a low number
1000s I don't know millions,whatever. So but this was this
game that we would play and thenthe game gets old the game gets
boring. You see an even moreattractive somebody somewhere

(33:59):
else. And you move on. Brett didnot play that game with me. Not
for a second, not not from thebeginning. And I was like, this
game is missing. Where's thegame? Now? I'm not consciously
thinking of it this way. At thetime, I'm consciously like, he's
not ogling me like he's supposedto. He's not commenting on my

(34:20):
physical body in like somewhat,you know, sexual ways like he's
supposed to like he's not doingthat. Why isn't he doing these
things? And at that point intime, because I was identified
as Eckhart Tolle A says with theroll, I was like, this is a
problem. This is bad. Thisshould be happening. So I tried

(34:40):
to bait him. I'm like so what doyou think of how I looked and
how what do you think of thisoutfit and how do you like I'm
like, you know twirling I'mlike, give me a number like rate
my body from one to 10Literally, this happened. This I
literally, I literally was likeI was like, I don't know how you
feel about my appearance. I needto know this. What do you said?

(35:03):
He's like not giving me veryclear answers. And so I
literally stood up in the roomwe were in and I do like a
twirl. And I'm like, rate merate my physical body. I'll let
you take it from here bed.

Brett (35:17):
So yeah, I looked at her and my words were seven and a
half, eight. What Lauren didn'tknow was I was giving her
Enneagram number. But

Unknown (35:29):
that's a future. That's a teaser for a future episode.

Lauren (35:32):
I love her for future episodes. But yeah, I'm like,
give me a number. And he saysseven and a half, eight. And I
felt like, like a deflatedballoon, honestly, yeah,

Brett (35:42):
that was I was like, But you asked me to be honest. And
I'm sitting here thinking if Iasked her that same question,
she's gonna be like, maybe afive. Like you're Southbend six,
but that's a New York five cube.
Yeah. She's not like that. Thankyou very much for giving me such

(36:04):
a high number. But that's notwhat I got there.

Lauren (36:07):
Right. And so yeah, no.
So I was disappointed because Ihad been dating guys that knew
their lines. And the line wasyou're an 11. That's the line.
The line is, this is great. Abaloney. I can't reach you.
You're beyond the scale. Now.
Maybe this again? Am I revealinghow much of a crazed, egocentric

(36:30):
conceded person I am? Maybe?
Sure we'll just allow space forthat. But those were the lines I
was used to. I had dated anumber of guys that would have
said 11? Would they have beentelling the truth? Of course
not. Of course not. I'm not an11. I think seven and a half,
eight was generous, honestly,now that we live in reality
land, babe. But because I wasn'tliving in reality land back

(36:51):
then. And you didn't follow thescript we got in a fight. We got
in a fight about that, that hisanswer was wrong. And I didn't
know how to communicate at thetime because I lacked the
consciousness that it would haverequired that he wasn't
following the script. And youyou lie to each other, you make
that this is how the scriptworks. You lie to indirectly in

(37:14):
manipulatively communicate whatis true, rather than just
communicating what is true. Soin my, you know, convoluted mind
at the time, if somebody reallyliked me, they would say 11 Not
because it was actuallyobjectively true. But because it

(37:36):
that's how they would becommunicating in that moment how
much they liked me by lying tome. And I was like, Where are
the lies? I need the lies.
You're not lying. Do you notreally like me? And how did that
land for you, babe? Because Iimagine that could have been
just a tad confusing.

Brett (37:57):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, because it totally
connects to what I was sittinghere thinking about too, because
if we talk about the roles thatEckert describes, you know, I
grew up my best friend in highschool, dated one girl for like,
two years, but after that, itwas the new girl every other
week. And I watched him, youknow, objectify women, I watched

(38:17):
him, you know, treat them forvalue only on their outward
appearance, things like that. Iwatched other people in my
family. And, you know, in thearea I lived in this was this
was how men treated women likethey were, they were a physical
object to be desired. And Ididn't want that rule. I didn't
like that rule. I felt disgustedby that I felt like, you know,

(38:38):
as someone who felt like, noone's ever seeing me, I'm seeing
this and seeing you're notseeing that person. So I'm
trying to find my role here. Howdo I not be the objectifying
asshole guy? How do I really,you know, try to see someone the
same way I want to be seen. Andso, you know, you know, I came

(38:58):
in remember how long I've beentogether when this conversation
happened. But like, I'm withsomeone who, you know, I find
beautiful in ways that I can'teven describe and would honestly
give an 11 in a milliondifferent ways. And numbers
don't even go high enough nowfor as I learned more about her,
you know, so when she's askingme to fit into this role that I
have rejected, out of disgustgrowing up, I don't know how to

(39:22):
do it. It doesn't even seem likea possibility to me. So it's not
like I'm sitting here thinking,How do I fit into this role?
That's not a conscious thing.
It's more like, my subconsciousis like, yep, we don't go there.
We go over here. And we answerhonestly, in a way that shows
her I think your seven and ahalf eight, because you're
beautiful to me. And if you wanta hold number for all of you, I

(39:42):
can't even give you that numberbecause I love how you look on
the outside how you areeverywhere else is even greater
than that. And so her responseto me where she was coming from
was not where I was trying to beor even knew how to be in that
moment.

Lauren (40:00):
Yeah, well in, and neither one of us knew how to
articulate clearly to ourselves,let alone each other what was
actually going on. So on thesurface, I go rate me and he
hesitates and then says sevenand a half, eight. And then I'm

(40:21):
like, oh, and I'm disappointed.
And I didn't get what I wanted.
And he's confused. And we end upin a fight later, but I don't
remember the words of the fight.
We weren't, we didn't have theconsciousness or the awareness,
to say what we really meant, orwhat we were like, I didn't have
the awareness then to say, whyaren't you playing this game

(40:45):
with me? Why aren't youfollowing the script that I'm
used to? And to have him get toauthentically answer, because I
watched other people play thatscript repeatedly. And it's not
real, and it's not authentic.
And then, you know, at thattime, I don't even know if I
would have been ready to receivethat. I might have been like,
No, this is how it works. If youreally liked me, you would play

(41:07):
this script. Why aren't youdoing this script? You don't
really like me? Which theopposite was true. Right? So our
constructs are in la la land,reality is beautiful, but
neither one of us knows how toanchor there and communicate it
effectively to each other. Sothat's kind of what I would say

(41:29):
about that one. Do you haveanything else that you would
want to say about that? Brett,before I fast forward us about a
dozen years?

Brett (41:37):
Yeah, I mean, we couldn't even connect on it either.
Because, you know, you're onyour island, trying to be where
you are. And I'm on my island,not only do I not know where
your island is, I don't evenknow where my island is. So I
can't, you know, this is 2001.
So I guess I'd be telling you togo to Mapquest and print out
directions, but I couldn't tellyou where to pick up directions
to. So there was like, you know,Lauren, in that, you know,

(41:59):
moment is half of our fight washer talking to me, or in some
ways talking at me. And I don'tmean that it's a slight against
her. But because I was a wall, Iwas like, Oh my gosh, I don't
know what's going on. I can'teven connect with her myself.
I'm a wall now. So what? Howdoes how do we move from here?
We had no way I had no way and Igive her tons of credit. For
this early in our relationship,a lot of the Navigating was her

(42:22):
finding me, there wasn't a wholelot of us finding each other in
these moments of crisis. So Imean, you know, that made it
hard to connect, you know,whether we're talking about
roles or talking about findingour authentic selves and joining
our authentic, authentic selvestogether. You know, it was, it
was really hard to do when bothof us really didn't know our

(42:42):
authentic selves that well, andI wasn't even sure where my
authentic self was at the time.
Mm hmm.

Lauren (42:53):
Yeah, and I would say that we spent the first decade
or so of our relationship,struggling deeply with
communication, as I think a lotof people struggle with
communication and in a varietyof ways. And for us
specifically, we weren't reallyclear on what was actually true

(43:17):
and authentic for ourselvesinternally, not clear enough to
acknowledge it, own it,articulate it, it might have
been motivating us at times,like, you know, Brett saying, he
answered out of his commitmentto be authentic to himself, but
he wasn't consciously aware ofit enough to be able to
articulate it and explain it,when I would was then asking

(43:40):
follow up questions or, youknow, trying to understand him
better. And he would, the way Iwould perceive him is that he
would be surprised that I didn'tlike his answer. I was
disappointed with his answer,and he would be confused. And he

(44:00):
would kind of withdraw intohimself. So he wasn't
necessarily asking me questionsor trying to gain more clarity
or understanding on where I wascoming from. I would ask a lot
of questions, but sometimes hewould have difficulty engaging
with those questions. And, youknow, it was just communication
was really difficult for like asolid decade, with exceptions

(44:23):
because there's alwaysexceptions, like we were
improving that entire time. Andwe were still kind of stuck in
these patterns. And then I wouldsay, there came a point when
things started breaking down forme. So my personal journey

(44:45):
included, like that kind ofbreak, down, break through,
break open were a bridge betweenI started seeing all these roles
and patterns and Theinauthenticity of them, I get to
a place where I'm in my early30s, I'm married, we have two

(45:06):
kids, I have a career. I'm nothappy. I think I've talked about
this in other episodes in othercontexts. And so the the whole
charade the scripts, they startcrumbling for me, they're not,
I'm not getting the return onall these investments that I've
been promised in life. And withthat, break down, break through,

(45:29):
everything came crumbling downfor me, including my false
manufactured conceptions aboutBrett and our relationship and
our marriage. And so I startinitiating these really real and
really challenging conversationswith him. And he starts opening

(45:52):
up to them more, and we starttalking about things in a more
real way, including aconversation where, you know,
he, he finally admits for thefirst time after over a decade
of being together, that heactually does find other women
attractive, occasionally moreattractive than me. And that's
true. And, you know, so that wasa way that we like, let go of

(46:15):
that false story that he hadeventually gotten on board with,
you know, because it sounds likein the beginning with the seven
half, eight, that he wasn'tgoing to play that. But I kept
pushing for it, I think. And Ifeel like he finally gave in
because I don't know, what wouldyou say about that, babe? I feel
like you kind of gave in andparticipated in it, and then we

(46:36):
broke it later.

Brett (46:39):
Yeah, I mean, it even kind of goes back to, you know,
as I continue to adapt my, youknow, my masks that I was
putting on everywhere, or theroles that I was playing, you
know, again, having friends thatwould go through, go to
girlfriend's like plastic waterbottles or something like that.

(46:59):
You know, I, I didn't want to bethe kind of guy that would be
with you. But then one of myfavorite quotes, not really
favorite, but I'll use that wordphrases, my friend would say
was, just because you're on adiet doesn't mean you can't look
at the menu. And I hear that andeven saying that right now. I
just feel like nauseous thinkingabout it. Like that idea

(47:21):
disgusts me that you're like,you know, you're always looking
for the next woman or anythinglike that. So, you know,
thinking about that, like, okay,yeah, I'm not going to be that
person. either. I spent a lot ofmy early life deciding who I was
not going to be took a long timeto figure out who I wanted to
be. So that, you know, theinauthenticity, you know,
anticipate came with? You know,okay, this is what I don't want

(47:42):
to be. So I'll just be theopposite. Let's go the opposite
attention. Yep. I'm gonna tellLauren, she is the only person
I've ever found attractive in mylife. Even before I ever met
her. I was like, Nope, you'renot this person I haven't met
yet. You know, and that'sobviously a lie. No one, no one
has never found anyone elseattractive. And, but we found a
way to make that work for us.
Because it was one topic wecould consider settled between

(48:03):
the two of us for a while, wecould decide that that was okay.
And then, you know, put it on ashelf and deal with other
things. And then came to a pointwhere that no longer was going
to sit on the shelf anymore. Wewere going to be real about
that, too. Like everythingneeded to be live.

Lauren (48:22):
Yeah, and I feel like it was this really important,
reconnecting to ourselves, andwhat was actually true letting
go of who we were desperatelytrying not to be, and also
letting go of who we were tryingto be if it wasn't true or
authentic. And so you know, whenI hear Brett say, I didn't want

(48:43):
to be the guy that was like,just because I'm just because I
ordered I can still look at themenu. I don't even remember what
you just said. Exactly. But thatidea of like, I'm always
looking, I'm always checkingwomen out. So he was he tried to
be not that but then there weremoments when he would deny what
was true in the moment, which isOh, then a really attractive,

(49:04):
I'm, I'm looking I'm like, Oh,she's gorgeous. Who is she? Do
you know her? He's like, I can'tsee her. I don't know what
you're talking about, you know,and I'm like, that's weird. Why
are you doing that? That doesn'tsound real. And so we had
moments like that along the waythat we finally broke down. And
it went far beyond just physicalappearance. This is an easy one
to focus on. And especiallyearly on, I was very attached.

Amy (49:27):
Yeah. Well. And I'm curious because right, you kind of
alluded to this as well ofneeding to take off the masks
and have your relationships belive and and real and I'm
wondering if there's otherdimensions beyond this one that

(49:48):
you've used as an example thatthat are coming to mind to share
with with our listeners?

Brett (49:53):
Oh, yeah. I mean, another like, easy example I can give is
like the famous couples questionof where we can To go out to eat
tonight, and for years, our gamewas I would say places that
Lauren would say no to, until Isaid one that she said yes to,
because I was not going to havean opinion. And I had an
opinion, the first restaurant Inamed to her was the first one I

(50:16):
wanted to go to, but she wouldsay no. And then I think of the
next one that I wanted to go to,and say no to that, did we
figure out where she wanted togo? I mean, even going deeper
levels in that, like, you know,I alluded to this a little bit
in this conversation, but like,emotions, were not something
that were talked about, orshared or encouraged in my
family growing up. So I wasdetermined not to have emotions,
I cried once in like seventhgrade, and told myself, I'd

(50:38):
never cry again. And I've prettymuch stuck to that, until
college and meeting Lucrin. Youknow, so these things I was
denying, like I was gonna be,you know, a robot, I was gonna
have no emotions, and be able tocalculate everything. And
nothing was going to faze me. SoI could be at all times

(50:58):
available to do whatever tolearn needed me to do to, you
know, be in the place, sheneeded me to be wherever. So I,
she could have all the thingsthat secretly I want it, you
know, I want it to be free withemotions, I wanted to be, you
know, free to figure out who Iwant to be in life, but I was
gonna shut myself down and lether have that as my gift to her.

(51:19):
And that was going to be enoughfor me, and it can't be enough
for anyone. So of course, itwasn't enough for me. And so,
you know, learning to, first ofall, identify those things, and
then be willing to take offthose masks like scariest thing
in the world. Next to likelosing a child, I can't think of
anything scarier than Oh, myGod, no, I'm gonna choose to be
my real self right now. Ah, it'sbeen

Amy (51:43):
quite the journey. So I know quite a bit about Lauren's
journey. And, you know, throughour many conversations on the
podcast, and I'm curious if youcould talk a little bit more
about yours, because youmentioned earlier, this idea of
finding your authentic selves,and joining your authentic
selves together, and I'mimagining that this is very
alive and ongoing. And alwayswould be for the duration of

(52:08):
your partnership. And I'm justcurious how you started down
that path?

Brett (52:14):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm gonna keep saying things
like this, but so much of itcomes down to Lauren, and part
of it is just the, you know,fact of meeting someone who
shares your soul, and you know,you, you want to be with this
person forever. But a lot of itis specifically her to, you
know, I, I had a lot of thingsthat, you know, I was gonna, you

(52:34):
know, do because it's what I'msupposed to do, and I never
really figured out what I wantedto do. And she presents this
opportunity of, Hey, move awayafter college and be near me,
it's like, oh, no, I'm notsupposed to do that. You sure
you'd rather like, she's likeyou sure you'd rather visit me
and live near your friends andfamily instead of live near me

(52:54):
and visit them as I go?
Actually, yeah, that's not whatI want. I want to live near you
and visit them occasionally. Andso it just started piece by
piece, you know, tearing down,brick by brick taking off off
this wall that I built, that wascontaining me into where I
thought I should be at alltimes. And, you know, I can even
think of my second job out ofcollege, my first job I was only

(53:16):
with for like nine months. Mysecond job, I stayed there for
nine and a half years. And I waslike, Yep, this is gonna be what
I do. I'm gonna stay in this jobforever, because my dad stayed
in his job forever. And his dadstayed in his job forever. And
that's just what we do. And Iwas miserable after about three
years, and I thought aboutleaving, and I couldn't make it
work. So I stayed. And thenafter six years, I tried living
again, that couldn't make itwork. So I stayed. And nine and

(53:37):
a half years in, the job wentaway from me, they lost funding,
they couldn't keep me andseveral other people. So all of
a sudden, I was faced withlosing this. And I went like a
month without sleep. Like,that's somewhat of an
exaggeration. But we're talkinglike averaging two hours of
sleep at night for a month,because my anxiety just couldn't
handle it. It's like, I've lostthis thing that I was going to

(53:59):
do forever. And there were somethings that I kind of liked
doing. And I was like, Oh, this,you know, it felt better.
Because like, I'm at this jobwhere I'm supposed to be doing
my job. And instead, half thetime I'm doing what I want to
do, because they don't know. AndI got an opportunity to do what
I want to do. But it was inVirginia. And as far as I was
concerned, Lauren's family wasall where we were, we were going

(54:23):
to live in South Bend forever.
And I said to her, I said, Yeah,I've got this opportunity. They
really want me but we'd have tomove. And Lauren was like, Do
you want this? I was like, Yeah,I do. And she said, well, then
we're gonna move and I just feltthis like, almost like a like a
door open inside of me, like,Oh, my God, everybody get out,
we can come out. It's okay. Wecan come out right now. We move

(54:44):
to Virginia, and I started downthe path of what I'm still doing
this day, and I've been throughseveral jobs since then. But I
genuinely can say most of thetime, I love what I'm doing. And
that's again part of the processof figuring out what I want to
do and who I want to be and youeven more on the process of with
Lauren, and I, you know, we wehaving children, of course shows

(55:05):
everyone what's wrong withthemselves. So, you know, we've
got two amazing children. And atsome point along the way, it
just really clicked that my jobthat I wanted as a parent was to
truly learn who they were,instead of try to make them into
what I thought they should be.
Because it felt like oh my god,that's what was done to me. I

(55:26):
was told what I was supposed tobe. And I spent the first
however long, I'm stillrecovering, you know, in my 40s.
Yeah. And I look at them, and Ijust see these amazing creative
souls that amaze me constantly.
And seeing that witnessing andallowing them to be themselves
like, oh, my gosh, what if I didthat for myself, too. So then

(55:49):
I've allowed myself to do morethings like that, too. And, you
know, whether it be cheaper,expensive hobbies that Lauren
has allowed me to have, like,Hey, I'm going to do this, this
thing that, if I look at itfrom, you know, an objective
point of view is like, Well, whyare you doing that that's
pointless, but then I look at itfor myself, it's like this
pointless thing brings me somuch joy. And that feels like

(56:11):
who I want to be, is all theselittle steps along the way that
I'm still discovering through,you know, allowing myself to be
myself watching other people bethemselves that I just feel like
keep opening up parts of me thatI'm so grateful for every step
along the way that, you know,has helped me discover those
things inside myself.

Amy (56:30):
There's one thing that you talked about that I want to name
because I think it's reallypowerful. And I've experienced
this about your wife as well,which is permission giver, she
gives I, and I and I name itbecause it's something that I
now see is something I want todo. And that I see you talking

(56:50):
about doing which she givespermission to people to feel
whatever they're feeling shegives permission to, for people
to see that there's a differencebetween what I want to do and
what I think I have to do, andthen to make the choice and
choose what I want. And I seehow beautifully you are also

(57:12):
giving permission to yourchildren. And then it's so funny
how it's like, Ooh, I want thisfor them. And then we realize,
Wait, if I'm going to give thempermission to be who they
authentically are, I'm going toactually have to give that
permission to myself. So I justwanted to highlight that because
there's, there's something therefor us all to be able to give

(57:32):
ourselves and others, which is,is that permission to really
step into more for ourselves, Ithink,

Brett (57:38):
yeah, and that's even, you know, I could speak to some
of the evolution with that withLauren and I to you know, that's
something early in ourrelationship. I was waiting for
permission, because I had tohave permission to do anything.
So I was waiting for Lauren togive me that permission. But I
also feel like Lauren hadn't yethoned those skills to do that in
a freeing way yet, either. So wewere both trying to convince me

(58:00):
and her to do things in certainways for a long time until, you
know, 10 year point where thingsdid start to break down. And
then we kind of gave ourselvespermission to explore things and
think like, how do we want tomake this work? Is this what we
want to work? Do we want to stayin this? You know? And so we
gave ourselves permission topermission to explore, like,

(58:20):
what are all the realpossibilities? And from that we
have come to a point where it'slike, oh, yeah, we kind of do
know what we want. And thatpermission giving is so much
easier, because everything isn'ttied down by a million strings
that we're worried about. It'sgoing to come on tight if we do
something.

Amy (58:37):
Yeah. You guys have mentioned this 10 years. This
the first 10 years of yourmarriage is sort of demarcated
in a way. And I'm wondering ifthere's more, Lauren, that you
want to share about that sort ofpivotal point.

Lauren (58:53):
Yes, that was one of the stories I most wanted to share
today, because I feel like theearly stories can still for me
can still be viewed through kindof rose colored glasses, the the
10 year demarcation that we'veboth named now. So around 10
years into our marriage, give ortake. I started really letting

(59:17):
go of all of the false things,including the false way that I
fell in love with Brettaccording to the false stories
of what falling in love means.
And that died for me and I toldhim that so we had a
conversation where I said, I'mnot in love with you anymore.

(59:40):
And the way I was in love withyou before feels fake to me now.
Like I don't know that I've everbeen in love for real because my
concept of love is changing andI don't love you As you can
imagine that that can be adifficult thing to navigate. So

(01:00:08):
that was kind of pivotal. Do youremember Brett how that was for
you?

Brett (01:00:19):
It was all right, you know, no soul crushing. I, you
know, even talking about like, Ihad everything anchored to our
relationship. I was definingmyself so much by being your
husband by being a father andall of a sudden you're like, I'm
gonna rip one of these thingsaway from you because I don't
love you and like one of thethings that Lauren would refer

(01:00:41):
to as her her hologram selfshe's like, well, hologram
Lauren, love to you. But realLauren has never loved anyone.
And over time, you know, wedissected that some more and
realize that well, hologramLauren Israel, Lauren to some
degree real low in his hologramlearned to some degree, but like
in that moment, I it speechlessis probably the best word.

(01:01:02):
Because I, you know, I didn'tknow what to say what to do.
Walls were crumbling down atthat moment. And for the life of
me, I couldn't I couldn't tellyou what I said to her in that
moment, or what the next 10minutes of my life are like,
because it was just like, damagecontrol inside at that point.

Lauren (01:01:23):
Yeah, and that was a pivotal moment for me when I
became consciously aware that Iwanted my first commitment to be
to myself and to my growth andto my journey and to what was
true for me, and I was willingto risk everything for that I
was willing to risk my marriage,I was willing to risk that

(01:01:49):
saying that would lead down likethat that would have year
repairable damage consequences.
And I was willing to face those,like it became I got to the
point where I was like, if myoptions are hold it together, by
continuing to consciouslypretend because now I'm, I

(01:02:12):
can't, you know, people talkabout how you get to a point
where you can't unsee whatyou've seen. And my experience
shifted from my only choices noware to consciously fake this, or
consciously reveal the truth,because I can no longer

(01:02:35):
unconsciously fake it, while Iconsciously think it's real.
Because it's, that's, that's nolonger available to me. And that
was part of my awakeningjourney. And I, I looped him in,
I was like, this is where I'm atthis is what's true. And that

(01:02:55):
began, like phase two of ourrelationship, which has, which
is an ongoing process, like yousaid earlier, Amy, in which
we're continuing to tear downand let go of false things and
build true ones. And so in someways, for me, our real

(01:03:20):
relationship began then, but inother ways to honor what Brett
was saying, you know, my habitof throwing the babies out with
the bathwater, but Brett told mehe laughed out loud when I was
like, they're not real babies.
I'm not throwing away real baby.
But like in this day in thatsame way so. So I had been
asleep in my marriage in myrelationship and then marriage

(01:03:46):
with Brett, I wake up and myfirst experiences that was all
fake. It's all in the gatedhologram. Lauren has been
running the show since I was avery young child. And she's not
real real me hasn't beenparticipating in any of this in
any way whatsoever. So it's allmeaningless. And like Brett

(01:04:07):
said, in the follow upconversations we had and the
deconstructing we did together.
We we discovered that thatwasn't quite it either, that
there had been realness andfakeness mixed up together for
the first 10 years, and that thedisentangling process was

(01:04:32):
allowing us to let go of some ofthe fake stuff and really pay
more attention to the realstuff. And so when I So
something I would love to sharewith everyone along those lines
is I have let go of needing tobe the most physically

(01:04:52):
attractive woman to Brett, Idon't source my identity that
way anymore. I was sold thisstory What I was supposed to be,
was the most attractive thing hehad ever seen. And that as long
as I maintained that I was doingmy job, so then I was like,
follow the script tell me I'mthe most attractive thing you've
ever seen. Tell me, tell me tellme tell me Come on, am I getting

(01:05:14):
an A plus what's going on here?
And that was fake. If we'retalking just about physical
appearance, if we're reducing itand oversimplifying it, in the
ways that it seems to be in thefalse stories, but but once
Brett and I got really real withourselves, and each other, I can
say right now that Brett is themost attractive human on the

(01:05:40):
planet to me, I am the mostmagnetically attracted to him.
Out of all the humans that I'mmagnetically attracted to, which
is a lot.
He's the one I'm the mostmagnetised to for reasons that I
still struggle to explain orarticulate or identify. I can't

(01:06:03):
defend it in a thesis and proveit do double blind studies or
anything like that. But I cansay with certainty that in this
moment, which doesn't guaranteeforever, but in this moment,
that is my truth. And I arrivedthere by letting go of the fake
stuff that was an attempt atthat. But it wasn't, it wasn't

(01:06:28):
being approached authentically.

Unknown (01:06:31):
Yeah. Brett. Yeah, I

Brett (01:06:35):
mean, and I can say the same things about how I feel
about Lauren, too. And I'm notjust saying that because you
said it, but I mean, it. And Iknow, you know that. And it
really is, you know, I feel likea lot of people will approach
relationships. And in so manyways we did to where we were
going to find a small number ofthings and try to make the
quality of those things be whatdefines our relationship. And in

(01:07:00):
that breaking down process whenshe stripped it all the way, and
was completely real with me. AndI then was given a choice to
give myself credit, which Idon't often do, I was given a
choice to continue to try to befake or be real, too. I chose be
real, you know, at at all therisks, and it's so far worked
out. And we've now built thisquantity and quality at the same

(01:07:22):
time. Like we have so manythings about each other that we
know about ourselves and eachother now that we love and are
attracted to each other, like,you know, still to this day,
there are countless things Icould, I couldn't put words to
about why I love Lauren, but Ihave a lot more I can put words
to now than I did 10 years ago.
And you know that if, you knowif one of those changes, we get

(01:07:43):
old, you know, I'm not going tolook like I did when I was when
I met her when I'm 80 I don'tlook that way. Now, that's gonna
change. But there's so manyother pieces that connect us
because we have connected them,that keep us together that, you
know, that are why I'm attractedto her. That's why she's
attracted to me. And like Laurensaid, she's attracted to other

(01:08:04):
people. And I always think ofthis video by CGP Grey, about
which planet is closest to theearth? And the answer is most of
the time, it's mercury, whichyou wouldn't think the video is
great, I encourage everyone togo look it up. But that doesn't
mean Mercury's always theclosest. And that doesn't mean
Lauren and I are always theclosest to each other. There's a

(01:08:26):
day when she's like Amy is mybest friend right now. And, and
you're number two on the totempole for a day. And I'm okay
with that. Because I know thenext day is gonna roll around,
it's going to be me again,because I'm her her most
closest. And other people can beclose to her too. And that's
fine because of the connectionwe have.

Amy (01:08:47):
So beautiful. And as we think about this show on
authentic connection, and you'veshared so many beautiful stories
that really highlight thistransformation inside of your
relationship. I'm wondering ifwe have listeners who are
looking for more authenticconnection. Where, where where

(01:09:11):
would they begin? Like, Isometimes do like to get a
little bit into that. But howbut how? Yeah, yeah. And I'm
wondering if you have anythoughts on that?

Lauren (01:09:21):
Yeah, so what I would share first is for me, so I like
to my favorite. One of myfavorite poems is a poem by
Hafiz and it says the smallwoman builds cages for everyone
she knows while the sage who hasto duck her head when the moon

(01:09:46):
is low, keeps dropping keys allnight long for the beautiful
rowdy prisoners. And I knew thatI wanted to be a key dropper I
knew at some point I knew thatthat began with finding my own
keys. This poem has been one ofmy keys. I'm like a spiritual

(01:10:09):
janitor, I have a collection ofkeys. And I and I have found key
after key after key to unlockthe cages that I was in. And it
is scary. Some of the things Iwill say, look, I love Brett,
it's weird to talk about cuz Iwas like, I don't love you
anymore. But also, I still I cancurrently love him and didn't

(01:10:33):
love him in that moment. It wasactually deeply loving, towards
me and towards him to initiatethat very real painful,
difficult, earth shatteringconversation. I did that out of
love for Me and him and thetruth and authenticity, and

(01:10:53):
connection and all of that. AndI don't know that I fully knew
and fully understood it in themoments that I was doing it
because it's hard to hurt peoplethat you love. But one of the
conversations Brett and I had,and then we had this
conversation repeatedly, waslike, What are we committed to?

(01:11:14):
Are we committed to the truth?
Are we committed toauthenticity? Or are we
committed to not hurting eachother's feelings? And like he
was saying to not having oracknowledging feelings? What are
we committed to and we keptrecommitting to truth to
authentic connection, even whenit hurts, especially when it
hurts. And in doing that webuilt resilience. And so and

(01:11:36):
now, like, you know, I was therewas a part of me that was so
afraid of admitting that thefalse version of in love that we
had co created because that'swhat we were conditioned to co
create wasn't doing it for meanymore. Like, in that moment, I

(01:11:57):
didn't want to get divorcedimmediately. I didn't want my
entire life to change. I wantedit. I did. I wanted it to
change, but I wanted it tobecome more real. And I also
think it's worth noting that Ididn't know what would happen. I
didn't know that Brett and Iwould come out the other side

(01:12:17):
ultimately, for now, togetherstronger. That was my ideal
outcome. And so far, I've gottento live that. And I feel really
lucky. I don't think that'sguaranteed. And I I can imagine
someone listening to thisconversation, thinking I want to

(01:12:37):
uplevel my relationship to Iwant it to be more real, more
authentic, I want to let go ofsome of these stories that we're
clinging to that don't feel trueanymore. But maybe we're both
afraid to let go of them. Brettand I have friends that we've
shared some of our conversationswith and we've had friends that

(01:12:58):
are in long term committedrelationships, say I would be
afraid to even bring up theconversation of Who do you find
more attractive than me, wedon't even talk like that to
each other. Because we don'twant to risk shattering. Like
what we're both imagining, whichis you're only attracted to me,

(01:13:18):
I'm only attracted to you. If wedon't talk about it, nothing
will, nothing will shatter that,you know. And I don't, I'm not
here to say that my choice isthe right or best choice for
everyone. But it was the rightbest choice for me. And I don't
want to hide the fact that ithas ultimately resulted for me

(01:13:40):
and something so much deeper andstronger. And like Brett was
saying early in thisconversation. I didn't know it
could get this good. I didn'tknow it could be this good. I
didn't know I could feel sodeeply seen and known and loved
for exactly who I am. And foreverything that I'm not

(01:14:01):
like, I don't need to pretendI'm anything that I'm not I
don't need to deny that I'm notthose things. And I can be
exactly who and what I am and sofar, so good. And I didn't know
that was possible until I cocreated it. So I want people to
know that. But I also I getscared and I want to warn people

(01:14:25):
too, like getting real like thatwith your partner can result in
a divorce. That can happen.
You're risking that I wasrisking that. And it's scary.
And if you're not ready, don'tdo it. I was ready. I like I
faced what I was risking. And Iasked myself, What do I want to
choose? And I chose it and Ilove the quote that there's no

(01:14:47):
such thing as one wayliberation. I get free, I free
others. And I feel like I'veheard both of you reflect that
back to me. Like I've heard bothof you By watching you, Lauren,
give yourself permission to saywhat's really true, even if it
makes you sound kind of like anasshole. I'm like, Oh, if she
can be that free, I could betoo. Yeah.

Brett (01:15:14):
When I'll answer your question from a different route,
Amy, because Lauren kind of saidthis, but didn't explicitly say
it of where to start is insideyourself. Because, you know, a
lot of people would think that,you know, even things like pop
culture, what is what is TV showus, you have a problem in your
relationship, you go to acounselor, and you tell the
counselor what your partner isdoing wrong. That's external.

(01:15:35):
And there is definitely a rolefor counseling in any one or two
person relationship problem. Butyou've got to start inside
yourself. And, you know, reallysay to yourself, what is really
true for me? What am I doingthat's blocking myself from
having the relationships I want?
What am I doing, that's notgiving the other person the real
me. And that's what Lauren didwith me is she said, here's what

(01:15:57):
I'm learning about myself.
Here's what I'm not doing.
Here's what you're, you know,here's what the relationship I
want, and I'm not getting. Andit wasn't said to me at all. In
a it's your fault way when shesaid it, either. It was well. I
mean, when we had theconversation where you said you

(01:16:18):
weren't in love with me, likethat. It wasn't a blame
conversation. It came to me veryreal as and this is how I feel,
because she started that workinside and then brought it out.

Amy (01:16:33):
Yeah, part of what you guys are really embodying to me is
this idea of spiritualpartnership. And in the sense
that Gary Zhukov, who wrote abook called spiritual
partnership, we're gonna do asubsequent show on spiritual
partnerships. Because there's acouple happening right now.
Yeah. But where that takes me isthis commitment to the spiritual

(01:16:59):
growth and development of eachother, even if it means the
ending of the partnership as itcurrently exists, right, like
so. And Shefali, Dr. Shefali,Sabari, who Lauren and I both
studied with also talks a lotabout bringing awareness to our
attachments, to things. And soas maybe the are one of the

(01:17:24):
final questions of thisconversation, I would just love
to hear both of you talk aboutthis idea of quote, unquote,
forever, as it relates to arelationship and how you may
have transformed in the way thatyou relate to your relationship

(01:17:44):
in the present, versus in thefuture.

Brett (01:17:49):
Yeah, I'll go first. For me, I know that I will always
love Lauren forever. Thatdoesn't mean we're together. But
the connections we have builtthe things about her that I am
awed by that I am drawn to.
Those are things that, like,they're the core of her and the
core of me connecting, those areforever. Those won't change, you

(01:18:10):
know, and maybe 1020 30 yearsdown the line, those things
aren't enough that we choose tostay together. But that doesn't
mean I don't still love her. Idon't see a scenario where we
would be parting in a way thatisn't painful, no matter what.
My life is forever changedbecause of her. I wouldn't be

(01:18:31):
who I am because of her. So fromthe moment I met her, and we
started building everythingwe've built together, every
piece of me has, over timechanged forever. And that's to
me undeniable and unchangeable.
No matter what happens from hereon out.

Lauren (01:18:51):
Yes, I. I love everything that Brett just said,
I feel forever changed foreverloved and loving. And that no
longer means what I wasconditioned to think it is
supposed to mean. So Brett and Ilove each other today. We have

(01:19:13):
loved each other in the past. Wewill continue to love each other
what that looks like. We don'tknow right now. It's in
alignment for both of us to livein the same house, be life
partners, co parents, ourchildren together. Brett
tolerates the three dogs. Andyou know that is in alignment

(01:19:34):
for both of us right now. And weboth know that I can speak for
him because I'm not speaking forhim. From my imagination. I've
asked him we check in we haveconversations. We had a
conversation in the last year inwhich the dogs were starting to
really bother Brett and he waslike I don't know if I can
tolerate these three loudrambunctious, difficult rescue

(01:19:56):
dogs anymore. And I said whatshould we do? Should we get to
living spaces? Should we tradein our big, beautiful house with
a pool for two small houses nextdoor to each other, and you have
one house that doesn't havedogs, and we have the other
house where the dogs are, and wecook and we could still be
married, I don't need us to livein the same house. I don't even

(01:20:17):
need us to be married. That's aconstruct. But I also don't want
to, from my privileged place,just speak like so flippantly of
marriage, because for peoplewho've been denied the right to
marriage that is so significant.
But when I speak about myself,just as an individual, I'm not
attached to us being legallymarried, I'm not attached to us
living in the same house, I'm,I'm not attached to a lot of

(01:20:41):
things that I was conditioned tothink, had to be part of it. I'm
not attached to the version offorever, where we stay
monogamously committed sexuallyto each other forever. I'm not
attached to that. And thatdoesn't negate any of the things
that Brett said, I'm foreverchanged. I'm forever grateful.

(01:21:02):
I'm still growing and changingand learning and loving him with
him, me. And it's beautiful. AndI feel so I'm lucky, I feel so
lucky. So I'm really happy withwhere it is now. And I feel like
I have access to that. Partiallybecause everything is possible

(01:21:23):
for me now everything is on thetable, and I can assess it. And
then I can go actually, I stillprefer this, I still prefer this
not because I think I'm supposedto not because I'm afraid that
if I tell you my truth, I'lllose you like this, this is
actually what I prefer rightnow. And that feels good.

Amy (01:21:47):
I love that. And I find it so inspiring this idea of you
are choosing this in thepresent, versus having chosen
this in the past, and now livinginto an obligation rather than a
choice, right? So then in justmy observation of it, it almost

(01:22:08):
feels like you have a want torather than a half, two, because
you're choosing it now based onwho you are today. And that also
has implications for the future.
That means that forever, asyou've said, means you have
these two souls that foreverwill have this love and will
forever have this past and yet,you know, this construct of

(01:22:32):
marriages forever that I'massuming were you both raised
Catholic.

Lauren (01:22:39):
I was Catholic. Brett was half Catholic half
Methodists. Yeah.

Amy (01:22:45):
Okay, yeah. So there were some messages, I'm sure growing
up about what marriage wassupposed to be. And it's just
this really interesting time tobe a human where we get to
unwind a lot of that and look atit and then choose from a place
of alignment. That feelsauthentic to me. Mm hmm. Yeah,

Lauren (01:23:07):
yeah, me too.

Amy (01:23:09):
So, this show on authentic connection. Is there anything
else that you wanted to say? Oh,probably

Brett (01:23:18):
a million things. I will tell a funny story here that
Lauren made me think of when shewas talking about the
conversation we've had in thepast year about getting separate
houses, which is every timeLauren and I talked about maybe
we should get a divorce what theconversation looks like. And
essentially, it's it goes likethis well. Alright, so we'll get
divorced. But I still want to benear the kid. So I'll try to get

(01:23:40):
a house on the same street. Andthen, but might want to have
dinner with the kids too. Solike what if I just like lived
in the basement? And you and thekids have the rest of the house
and then Lauren like club, weonly have one good bad and I
don't want you to have to sleepon a couch or coffee bed. So you
guys want to sleep in thebedroom? And never like you know
what? Let's just not getdivorced.

Unknown (01:24:04):
Oh my gosh, you guys are hysterical.

Lauren (01:24:09):
I love that story. And I love I love you too. Amy, thank
you for bringing this topic upfor sharing that you were
rereading Eckhart Tolle a NewEarth so good. I love talking
about this. I love the alignmentand the synchronicities between
you and I feel like we're onthis parallel journey. And, you

(01:24:29):
know, how often do you and Ibring something to each other?
And we're like, oh my God,that's what I'm learning about
right now too, you know, and so,I'm just like I love
authentically, I loveauthentically connecting with
you, Amy. I love building thisauthentic partnership with
Brett. And I love helping peoplebuild a more authentic

(01:24:49):
connection with themselves andthen be able to build more
authentic connections withothers and empower others to do
that as well because it's it's abeautiful thing when People want
that and they are moving towardsthat. And we can empower each
other. I love I love when itgoes that way.

Amy (01:25:10):
I love it. Lauren, Brett, this was such a privilege for
our listeners I have I havenever met Brett before. And I
consider Lauren of course asoulmate. So to meet another one
of her soulmates, her main, mainsort of central person is such a
privilege. Brett, thank you forbeing here.

Brett (01:25:30):
Oh, thank you so much for having me on. I love listening
to the show. And I'm alwaysinspired by both of you and the
guests you talk with. So I'mjust so grateful and thankful to
get to be a part of thisjourney.

Amy (01:25:41):
Thank you. And as we close, I would just invite our
listeners, I mean, Lauren and I,what we are up to, is really
living our lives in a way andwalking this path of this
journey towards wholeness. Itincludes finding authentic
connection, exploring this, andreally highlighting new

(01:26:05):
possibilities and y'all embody awhole new possibility to me of a
way of authentically connectionconnecting and a partnership. So
I would just invite ourlisteners, please share this
with someone you love or are inpartnership with or a soul
sister or brother of yours, ifyou feel like this is a

(01:26:26):
possibility that you feel likethey could benefit from from
seeing and knowing as well. Andwith that, thank you until we
talk again.