January 9, 2023 • 37 mins
In this special edition episode of The Soul & Science Podcast, Jason shares his discussion with author, zen teacher and monk Koshin Paley Ellison during the launch event for his new book, Untangled. Untangled is a welcoming guidebook to finding expansive ease and joy through the Eightfold Path, one of Buddhism’s foundational teachings. In his book, Koshin, shares anecdotes from his life dealing with abuse and discrimination as well as the path of teachings from Eastern and Western wisdom traditions.
Together, Zen teacher and monk, Jungian psychotherapist, and the co-founder of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, Koshin Paley Ellison, and Jason Harris, Co-founder & CEO of creative agency, Mekanism, discuss how to incorporate these teachings of untangling our suffering and the path of freedom in our everyday lives.In this episode you’ll learn:
Together, Zen teacher and monk, Jungian psychotherapist, and the co-founder of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, Koshin Paley Ellison, and Jason Harris, Co-founder & CEO of creative agency, Mekanism, discuss how to incorporate these teachings of untangling our suffering and the path of freedom in our everyday lives.In this episode you’ll learn:
- When unfortunate circumstances arise, rather than ask yourself, “why me?” ask yourself, “why not me?”
- Slowing your mind and becoming more intentional are key to living a fulfilling life.
- It’s important to confront your fears, not to be enveloped by them.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, I'm Jason Harris, andyou're listening to Soul and Science. Fast
forward your marketing mind in about twentyminutes. If you like our show,
please take a moment to subscribe,rate, review, and share on Apples,
Spotify, or wherever you get yourpodcasts. You can follow us across
social platforms at mechanism. Hey,fellow marketers, We've got a very special
(00:26):
episode of the Soul and Science podcastfor you this week. On December sixteenth,
twenty twenty two, I had thehonor of hosting a discussion with author
and Buddhist monk Koshin Paley Ellison atthe launch event for his new book Untangled,
Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity,Courage, and Compassion. While the
audio is a tiny bit rough,it was still a very insightful conversation about
(00:47):
being present in the midst of chaosand not letting fear control you. If
one of your goals for twenty twentythree is to become more mindful, which
I'm sure it is, you shoulddefinitely listen to this insightful conversation, and
I encourage you all to pick upa copy of the book stay tuned to
hear the conversation between coaching and Ithanks for listening. Thanks to everyone for
(01:11):
coming to my mom party. Weappreciate you guys being here, and thanks
for the eighth floor gallery for Iasked Coach it my friend Coach, and
here's some questions. You wouldn't knowthat Coach and I have a lot of
similarities by looking at us, butwe're both we both live in New York,
(01:38):
We're both Jewish, and we bothfolded T shirts of the Gap,
so we have a lot of similarities. What's up? Yes, and Coach
should be ballast part and Jason inGreek mythology needs healer. So the similarities
(02:00):
just continue. So I'm pretty nice. But I did want to start read
his book Untabled in about three days. You guys want to buy a copy
at the end, you can.I really recommended I thought it was an
amazing reading and really captivating. Ilearned a lot from it, and I
took a lot of notes as Iwas reading it. So it brought up
(02:22):
a lot of questions, and I'mfortunate enough to be able to sit here
and ask me some of them.I'll start with something very simple. The
definition of a Buddha is someone whowaskes themselves up and helps wake up others.
What is waking yourself up being?To you? First of all,
it's just so nice to be here, it's so nice to see all of
(02:44):
you. Thank you so much forcoming. Thank you, And to me,
that is actually a part of theactivity, which to me, it's
really easy to say a lot ofthings, but it's really different to actually
be awake. And one of thethings that I love the most about that
(03:05):
word is that there's a story togood of walking down some street, seventeenth
Street, and happen and some otherperson sees him and says, wow,
like, are you like a saintor something? You just have this glow
about you And he said no,and it's a well are you some kind
of guru or something? And hesaid no, said well, They're started
(03:30):
getting confused, and then they said, well, are you a man and
he said no. He said,well what are you? He said,
I'm awake. And so I thinkthat there's this experience that we can have
and we kind of already known thepeople who are really inside of their own
(03:53):
experience and connected to others at thesame time, so that we're not just
in hours perience doing our things.Following our preferences over actually realizing and through
how we're sitting, how we're walkingthat everyone matters, and how do you
(04:15):
go about waking others up? AndI don't now because I feel like we
can walk with each other, butwe can do that for someone us,
And to me, the key partis to realize that and respect people where
(04:39):
they are and that everyone is movingin the way that they move. And
to me, being as clear inmy own experience and being also loving and
attentive to others is actually how wesupport people. And I know that people
(05:00):
in my life. I'm thinking aboutthe night ninth grade poetry teacher English teachers
is believing where she used to justhave everyone put their heads on their desks
and she would beating homes. She'slike, just to listen. So to
me, it's that kind of activityof generosity, the part of that tangle
(05:25):
where can talk about how you tangleourselves. Even if a lot of us
have what we would consider typical societalsuccesses, whether that's relationships or money or
career, but we still we feelempty side and we feel that emptiness.
(05:46):
Fill that echiness out with junk pleasures. Why do you think that people get
tangled up and they fill themselves upthe junk pleasures. One of the things
that you know these days, peoplesay it's because of social media or it's
whatever that is, But I thinkthat what is really essential is that we
(06:10):
forget to really have a reflection onhow we're thinking, how we're what we're
saying, and what we're doing.And so I think that if we're not
really reflecting on am I actually expressingmy values? That many of us know
what our values are, like,we love is really important, Families,
(06:33):
important relationships are important. But howmuch of our day do we actually spend
nourishing those things? And often it'svery little, And so I think it's
actually the cost of joint pleasures.So we go for what's easy, and
(06:55):
and going for what's easy in theshort term is fine, the long term
could be devastating. And I thinkthat all of us kind of know that.
And if you think about people thatwe've had the honor to serve at
the end of their lives, thatno one is concerned of like, oh,
(07:15):
I'm so glad that I have theshirt or whatever that is, it's
really mostly about values and didn't theylive according to their values? And most
people feel that they have Okay,moving on, all right, So now
I'm curious. Okay, so anotherthing that you talk about, and I
(07:41):
remember this story, so maybe maybethe book I wanted to share. You
had surgery and the doctor said somethinglike there's a ninety nine point nine nine
percent chance that it's not cancer,its or you don't have something else from
whatever surgery one and so there's apoint of one percentaions and then he went
(08:03):
back to the doctor and it turnsout you did have something and you wrote
about it so beautifully the book whereyou were outside the doctor's office and you
put your hand on rot iron defenceand it was freezing cold, and you
just remember that moment and your mindmost people go to buy me, and
(08:28):
your thought was why not me?And how that was just a real important
moment, I think, and thattransformation. Can you just talk a little
bit about that moment and the whyme versus why not me? Sort of
philosophy or feeling? Yeah, soI think that first of all, the
(08:54):
context of that story, it's reallyspending years bit very sick and die people,
right, And so what we learnis that most people their first thing
was like, I can't believe thisis happening to me, and it's so
interesting in a certain way, becauseagain, if you think about the root
(09:16):
of the word interesting, which isinteresting, which is the space between And
again it's this idiocy that we allshare where we think we should know that
people get sick, can die likeeveryone in the arm. We know that,
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but how we function is not acknowledgingthat at all. And so it's
very kind of crazy and part ofour shared craziness, I think. And
so we think that we're just waitingfor our life to unfold in a certain
way as opposed to really using ourlife. And so when I had that
(10:03):
experience, and I just remember eventhinking it's my dream, so like maybe
this, maybe this is the wayit goes. And it reminds me of
one of our students who was ina terrible kind of card tumble current accident
(10:24):
and as the car was tumbling,she just remember that could be like this,
right, and that there's this senseof of course, where the nature
to get a little bit older,where the nature gets sick, and for
the nature to die the things thatare most reliable. And it's so important
(10:50):
to me, and some people think, oh, it's so negative, it's
so depressing to think about that,but to me, it's actually the most
enlightening that I know, because thenyou realize my goodness, like we just
have now and we don't know aboutme and so mixed. To me,
(11:11):
that just like looking around seeing yourface, seeing everyone here is just delicious
and easy. Okay, Yeah,I have a lot of follow up questions
on the home feelings arise you haveYou have mentioned this in the book let
(11:41):
them come and go without picking themup. I love I'm a simple man,
so I love simple things like thatthat I can watch onto. It
seems so actionable to almost think ofyour feelings and your thoughts as drifting into
water and you can shoot you voteif you pick up vote, pick them
(12:01):
up and do something with them,or if you let them to about Is
that is that part? Or isthat something in training that you learned?
And tell me more about how youthought about that. Yeah, well the
first all, it's not like it'sa revival point, but it's it's a
(12:22):
practice. And so what I loveabout practice just thought opportunity to keep doing
it again and again. And whathappens to me is like that we're all
in this stream of our preference isthe stream of our feelings and the stream
of thoughts, and meditation practice actuallyhelps you to get out of the water
(12:43):
and dry off and actually not besoaked in your thoughts and feelings and begin
to dry out, which to meis almost like learning how to be an
adult. They're called adulting and andlearning how to really look at this river
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of thoughts and feelings and look athow fascinating and what also a prisoner can
be to just be reacting and distractingourselves because we don't like what we're thinking
of feeling. And so the freedomthat comes from adulting and drying out and
actually enjoying seeing and having the joyto actually feel what you're feeling without being
(13:39):
feeling. I think you sup thatsbeautiful, And I think you summed up
in part of your writing. I'venever heard of explaining so succinctly as your
your feelings wilcome your your thoughts ifyou love them right, your thoughts wilcome
your words. Your words will becomeyour actions, and over time your actions
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become your character and who you are. And so it all starts with that
stream of feelings and which one youpick up going to the end, of
the road becomes who you are asa person. What are some techniques to
not let your feelings becovery thoughts,into your words, into your actions.
What are some techniques that you maybeyou can share with the folks here.
(14:26):
Yeah, so for me, it'sthe what's the most helpful is the basic
instructions of sauce and which is seatedmeditation. And so when you're feeling or
I'm feeling like pretty activated and challenged, learning how to actually ground myself,
(14:46):
like really feeling your feet on theground wherever you are waiting for to cash
machine or whatever that is, andactually feeling your breath and your lower bellue
you know that. Yeah, canyou do that? Yeah, okay,
(15:09):
let's do it. Let's do it. So just like really taking your moment
to put your paint flat on thefloor and just taking a moment to gather
yourself and actually realize what my feetare on the floor. We're often not
(15:33):
even aware of that because we're solike an we're like a little severe head
and running rounds, and then bringingyour attention to your lower belly just below
your belly button and allowing them tobe soft, and then your shoulders just
(15:54):
seeing if you could open them justeven on Llowe or more so that you're
just a bit more open and alsoallowing your spine to be upright. So
for me, whenever I'm feeling acluster of feelings or getting caught by something,
(16:19):
which it does, just these verygrounded, soft, open and upright
to me him are so helpful andso simple, and yet it's like the
most simple. Then you constantly forgetand just notice what your mind feels like
(16:45):
you you just do that firmal andimagine if you started to really track what
you're feeling and as should versus.And he says, you know, to
allow the thoughts and was to kindin the front door and opened the back
door a lot with the true justnot invite fourteen. I love it.
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I think that there's another story thatI wanted to do, so maybe talk
about what she was Williams to doup and that was there was a man
dying that he said, repeatedly,holy, hold me, can you tell
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us that story. So this isearly in my clinical training, and I
was on call at night on SINEIand I was called in about three in
the morning. And oftentimes when situationsare very difficult, thing called the Chapliner
(17:53):
called someone else, you deal withthat, and so I man, and
they said, you know, I'mgoing up bed. There's a problem.
And when did pull back the screenthe curtain, and there was this little
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kind of fern of a man,elderly man, curled up like a firm,
really beautiful actually, and really gaspingfor breath, as often is the
case when someone's very close to death. And the family were all pressed up
(18:36):
against the curtain, look almost likeas as if it was all like as
far away as possible. And Isaid, well, you know, my
name's pushing and how can I help? And they said, well, he's
saying something, but we don't knowwhat he's sang. And I just remember
(18:57):
thinking, but if you want togo and hear what he's saying, oh
no, no, no, no, you you go see, because it's
almost that they were afraid of death. And so I went over and he
what he was saying over and overagain was holding holy and so here's this
(19:21):
family who knows what the family downhamexport. And so I said, he
wants to be held and would wantif you like to hold him, and
they said, oh, so wedon't do that, And I said,
well, how about I told him, and someone holds me and they said
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okay. So I wanted to makesome kind of bridge and connection, and
so I just helped him. Hekept saying r r R, and so
I sha ended up getting into bedwith this man and holding him gravely him
(20:03):
as he died. And as hewas dying he just said thank you.
And I had this since I mean, of course I don't know, but
I'm not sure if he had everbeen out. And I just wondered also
(20:25):
about all of us and how tobe to allow ourselves to be held into
newly as we actually often truly want, but often keep it at bay.
What was the family's reaction insperious,it was they cleaned it up very fast.
(20:48):
They're very appreciative, and they said, okay, you can go,
and that if your own home,kay back. Do you think it touched
the family? I don't know.Okay, are you? And showed often
(21:11):
in these types of situations were well, as I say in the beginning of
the book, you know some ofthe time where people who are know that
they're dying, and all the timeI spend the people who are dying,
I say, sitting here with you. Yes, okay, yeah, going
(21:44):
here, all right? Another anotherstory, another story I'm done here is
switching hears is the story of thethree giants, which is three anger and
delusion, and I don't know,can you tell us that story? Yeah?
(22:08):
So traditionally their thoughts the three poisons. So the first noble truth is
that life has suffering, that thatwe're all tangled into tangled, we ever
overwhelmed, my ever anxiety or stressed. And the second noble truth is that
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there is a cause, and thecause are these three giants, which is
typically understood us the three voisons.You know, I think of also the
story of his starticle, but whotried a lot of different things out,
you know, before he got clear, and he was on some apps,
(22:52):
and he tried you know, yogastudio, he tried much Apollo in America
and you know for an armand nobut I aulates. But the story is
that he actually did all of thosethings, which I think is a contemporary
(23:14):
story, like we're still doing that. And at a certain point he realized,
I'm never going to get clear untilI face my fear, and so
he sat under what is now calledthe voting tree, which is a big
tree, fragrant, big tree andgot really clear about that he had to
(23:37):
sit there and instead of distracting himself, he was getting distracted even with all
of these different you know, appositeand traditions and retreats. And he realized
that he had to face what hewas most afraid of or he'll never be
free. And he did and hefaced and you know, I said,
(23:59):
Indian stories, so it's quite colorful, and you know, like you know,
the armies came against him of arage of anger and they have spears
or drawing at him, and allthe things he was afraid and also the
seduction of our delusions, like hewas told that if he could get up
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for a little whit, you know, I'll give you a cookie or whatever
that is, sort you know,I think there's a cookie in the oven,
you know, whatever that is,and I greet you know, the
things that he wanted. You know, we're also presented to him that he
stayed there. So there so thesegiants of that we all have to reckon
(24:45):
with him. And what happened isthat he in the morning, after he
was meditated with the night, heput his hand down and said, oh,
house builder, thou art seen atlast the ridge pole is shattered.
Never more will you build a houseof sorrow. And so what he saw,
(25:06):
in kind of conventional terms, isthat he was creating his own sorrow
through his habits, through how he'sfeeling, how he was thinking, what
he was saying, what he wasdoing, and that he was responsible for
that. So it's these giants wherethat we have to reckon with our read
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and how that takes us away fromwhat we value most, like how our
intoxication with more and not now andlater and what was? And the resentment
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because I think anger also could begreat, but it is really important.
But I think that anger could whenit's turn into a resentment. And saw
someone recently, it was just likefilled with resentment. You could even see
it in their body. They're sotight. And you know the famous saying
says, you know, holding ontothat it's like drinking voice and expecting the
(26:11):
other person to die, right,And I think that we do that.
And the third is delusion, Solike thinking that I'm not you. And
to me this also comes back tobeing awake. You know, of course
you matter. Hello, nice tosee you. Are you here? So
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it's like it's really and what Ithink is really helpful about you know,
some people called ancient wisdom, butyou know it's been around for twenty six
hundred years. The reason that's superhelpful and to me is that this is
nothing new, and we tend tothink it's how we personalize it, like,
(26:56):
oh, this is my problem,I'm just good have But this is
just being human. And I findthat super encouraging, Like how low people
have been dealing with this very atleast that's about eighty eight generations, So
it's our Why not me? Um? I think you kind of saw like
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that in that story of instead ofwhat has been gotten to me, think
the good, the tree, thetreat instead of what has been done to
me? What can hide you?Differently? Can I transform a change?
He was just thinking about what's what'simpresses me, or what's coming at me,
(27:45):
or what's what's happening to me,because if you were you don't have
an agency and it's all these threegiants coming after you. Yeah, so
I think that was It's a goodway for me to make it. See
right. Well, I think it'salso that you know that we tend to
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think of ourselves as acted upon bythe world. I can't believe this is
happening. It's like a common response. We actually we still live in this
other building and there's this morning Isaid old later all the time and it's
like, oh, good morning,how are you going? And she'd be
like, oh, it's terrible.Oh why is a terribles greening out?
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And then the next day and seeher, how are you good? She's
like terrible? Why is that?Oh? Sunny right, no matter what
I want. And it's just sointeresting that we can have the habit of
just falling into that. And Ithink all of us have our own flavor
of that where we feel kind ofvictimized by out our circumstance, but I
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think the opportunity. It's really howdo we take the agency and have the
courage to do something? Okay,um, I can't read, so here's
a here's a twist that you don'tknow about. The coaching must have been
(29:21):
the book I got jobs this ofcourse. But every morning you or you
know many mornings that you can't youwake up? Of course, you would
say, first, then you logonto a White Supremos website? What is
that action? Why don't commit?That sounds crazy? What does that actually
(29:44):
listen to do? It's part ofmy compassion trun you know, you know,
I remember as a kid, Iwould go with my dad to he
was a mom Dos person and somethingnever Romoss was like touring around and go
see rom Dos and I remember Ithink it was during Reagan years. And
then Ramdas said, you know,on my altar, I have a picture
(30:07):
of my GUR group and Reagan nexttaction and until I see them as equal,
I haven't really done any work.And so you know, I guess
I've been log on to the siteand I've still learned each day that it
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takes me about a half a secondnot even to have the same kind of
judgmental violent thoughts like those like almostto be like and scared thoughts and aggressive
thoughts like they just come immediately asa reaction. So for me, it's
(30:52):
actually at the beginning of compassion,as I feel like it's actually the group
that I feel the most confused by, and so I'm trying to learn how
to find compassion. And so actuallyI've been able to locate and myself a
sameness of reactivity and protection and aggressionin myself, which tweet is the beginning
(31:22):
of connection. And they and theylove people I love people, so gay
Jewish rudism, a lot of thewhites and Privacy site. You're sort of
going to the extreme. It's prettyextreme as far as you can go in
(31:44):
order to train yourself to copy thosethose fears, in those feelings, to
see them directly. Because also Iinherited. I think many of us have
inherited. So many of our arewhat we think of our as our own
thoughts. And so I grew up, you know, and I write about
(32:05):
this too, but where my grandfatherused to like hold this okay, every
time I visited, I'm just calledthe indestructible juices liked and you know,
and there was realist because that hiswholeness and family was wiped down in the
Holocaust. So there's good reasons forthat. And I think that it was
also this super intolerance that he hadand fear that he had, and so
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and actually that was the same withmost of my grandparents. And so I
grew up with that kind of indoctrinationof not trusting and learning how to love
and compassion to me is the mostimportant things, beautiful. I was just
(32:55):
gonna ask one more about the center, which is the visions willing to turn
fear into courageous compassion. Can youtell us what that means to you?
That our work and everyone's works within sense and what'd you guys are trying
(33:20):
to accomplish the center? What wedo three things and one of them is
Zend training, and so it's likeagain learning how to see that we're the
house builder, and learning how topay attention and having enough courage to need
it, and the other pieces thatwe do. We have a strong education
(33:44):
program where we are inviting people toalso practice and engage. And I would
say all of our trainings are abouthow do you see your values and how
do you see your action and howdo you bring them together. So,
whether it's our Foundations and Contemplative Character, which is a nine month training to
(34:07):
really engage you won't into how youare serving the world and really looking at
your intrapersonal and your interpersonal connections andreally learning about how to breach that gap.
And our Contemplative Medicine Fellowship for ourphysicians and their practitioners and physician assistance.
(34:30):
And again it's also really about howdo we start with how we're really
overwhelmed and burnt out and afraid andin danger because actually those of the people
in our society that our most atrisk ur divorce, leaving the profession done
(34:50):
by suicide, alcoholism, and sowe're really providing messin to the people that
actually everyone depends on. And thethird main thing that we do is again
to say impact us. And wehave a ninety day commit to Sit,
which is a chance for people tosay, all right, I'm gonna start
(35:12):
and really engaged. I'm going tocommit to sit for maybe five minutes a
day, maybe thirty minutes a day. And we have talks once a week,
and we have amazing teachers whom acrossthe United States and Japan to encourage
people too. And this January we'restarting to look at a beautiful teacher and
Joe go Back and her teachings onwonder and so so that's um anyone here
(35:38):
and you could involved in commits SIconcluding Jay, I'm on side of our
man, and there's actually a feware puting the back. Simply Sandy Fohan
sign up and it starts January tolive them. So you have time after
the hallidays for you've actually so senseand I think you commit to sit and
(36:02):
that's an easy light way way tobolt of the sens and a renof that
it is and what's the good thingthat you have to do? Do that
at your home. You can cometo them, you can come to the
center everybody. Most people come Hlneand we have a pipe rate of the
opportunities. And also every morning Ireceived a teaching from this text and some
(36:23):
reflections to and so that's just areally wonderful way to participate and a deep
think, what are for me?The world needs more wonder and so how
we bring a deeper sense of wonderby through commitment. It's so interesting.
(36:45):
It's earlier in my life I wouldhave said, you know, being a
rebel is like a repel and thelong bold place to think that was really
great. And what I realized isthat I was just nowhere, and so
learning how to commit for a periodsof time could be super helpful in beginning
(37:05):
to change. Hats say sorry,Ja, thanks so much for listening to
Soul and Science, and we'll seeyou next week. Soul and Science is
(37:27):
a mechanism podcast produced by Maggie Bowles, Ryan Tillotson, Tyler Nielsen, Emma
Swanson and Lily Jablonsky. The showis edited by Daniel Ferreira with theme music
by Kyle Merritt and I'm your HostJason Harris
Hi, I'm Jason Harris, andyou're listening to Soul and Science. Fast
forward your marketing mind in about twentyminutes. If you like our show,
please take a moment to subscribe,rate, review, and share on Apples,
Spotify, or wherever you get yourpodcasts. You can follow us across
social platforms at mechanism. Hey,fellow marketers, We've got a very special
(00:26):
episode of the Soul and Science podcastfor you this week. On December sixteenth,
twenty twenty two, I had thehonor of hosting a discussion with author
and Buddhist monk Koshin Paley Ellison atthe launch event for his new book Untangled,
Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity,Courage, and Compassion. While the
audio is a tiny bit rough,it was still a very insightful conversation about
(00:47):
being present in the midst of chaosand not letting fear control you. If
one of your goals for twenty twentythree is to become more mindful, which
I'm sure it is, you shoulddefinitely listen to this insightful conversation, and
I encourage you all to pick upa copy of the book stay tuned to
hear the conversation between coaching and Ithanks for listening. Thanks to everyone for
(01:11):
coming to my mom party. Weappreciate you guys being here, and thanks
for the eighth floor gallery for Iasked Coach it my friend Coach, and
here's some questions. You wouldn't knowthat Coach and I have a lot of
similarities by looking at us, butwe're both we both live in New York,
(01:38):
We're both Jewish, and we bothfolded T shirts of the Gap,
so we have a lot of similarities. What's up? Yes, and Coach
should be ballast part and Jason inGreek mythology needs healer. So the similarities
(02:00):
just continue. So I'm pretty nice. But I did want to start read
his book Untabled in about three days. You guys want to buy a copy
at the end, you can.I really recommended I thought it was an
amazing reading and really captivating. Ilearned a lot from it, and I
took a lot of notes as Iwas reading it. So it brought up
(02:22):
a lot of questions, and I'mfortunate enough to be able to sit here
and ask me some of them.I'll start with something very simple. The
definition of a Buddha is someone whowaskes themselves up and helps wake up others.
What is waking yourself up being?To you? First of all,
it's just so nice to be here, it's so nice to see all of
(02:44):
you. Thank you so much forcoming. Thank you, And to me,
that is actually a part of theactivity, which to me, it's
really easy to say a lot ofthings, but it's really different to actually
be awake. And one of thethings that I love the most about that
(03:05):
word is that there's a story togood of walking down some street, seventeenth
Street, and happen and some otherperson sees him and says, wow,
like, are you like a saintor something? You just have this glow
about you And he said no,and it's a well are you some kind
of guru or something? And hesaid no, said well, They're started
(03:30):
getting confused, and then they said, well, are you a man and
he said no. He said,well what are you? He said,
I'm awake. And so I thinkthat there's this experience that we can have
and we kind of already known thepeople who are really inside of their own
(03:53):
experience and connected to others at thesame time, so that we're not just
in hours perience doing our things.Following our preferences over actually realizing and through
how we're sitting, how we're walkingthat everyone matters, and how do you
(04:15):
go about waking others up? AndI don't now because I feel like we
can walk with each other, butwe can do that for someone us,
And to me, the key partis to realize that and respect people where
(04:39):
they are and that everyone is movingin the way that they move. And
to me, being as clear inmy own experience and being also loving and
attentive to others is actually how wesupport people. And I know that people
(05:00):
in my life. I'm thinking aboutthe night ninth grade poetry teacher English teachers
is believing where she used to justhave everyone put their heads on their desks
and she would beating homes. She'slike, just to listen. So to
me, it's that kind of activityof generosity, the part of that tangle
(05:25):
where can talk about how you tangleourselves. Even if a lot of us
have what we would consider typical societalsuccesses, whether that's relationships or money or
career, but we still we feelempty side and we feel that emptiness.
(05:46):
Fill that echiness out with junk pleasures. Why do you think that people get
tangled up and they fill themselves upthe junk pleasures. One of the things
that you know these days, peoplesay it's because of social media or it's
whatever that is, But I thinkthat what is really essential is that we
(06:10):
forget to really have a reflection onhow we're thinking, how we're what we're
saying, and what we're doing.And so I think that if we're not
really reflecting on am I actually expressingmy values? That many of us know
what our values are, like,we love is really important, Families,
(06:33):
important relationships are important. But howmuch of our day do we actually spend
nourishing those things? And often it'svery little, And so I think it's
actually the cost of joint pleasures.So we go for what's easy, and
(06:55):
and going for what's easy in theshort term is fine, the long term
could be devastating. And I thinkthat all of us kind of know that.
And if you think about people thatwe've had the honor to serve at
the end of their lives, thatno one is concerned of like, oh,
(07:15):
I'm so glad that I have theshirt or whatever that is, it's
really mostly about values and didn't theylive according to their values? And most
people feel that they have Okay,moving on, all right, So now
I'm curious. Okay, so anotherthing that you talk about, and I
(07:41):
remember this story, so maybe maybethe book I wanted to share. You
had surgery and the doctor said somethinglike there's a ninety nine point nine nine
percent chance that it's not cancer,its or you don't have something else from
whatever surgery one and so there's apoint of one percentaions and then he went
(08:03):
back to the doctor and it turnsout you did have something and you wrote
about it so beautifully the book whereyou were outside the doctor's office and you
put your hand on rot iron defenceand it was freezing cold, and you
just remember that moment and your mindmost people go to buy me, and
(08:28):
your thought was why not me?And how that was just a real important
moment, I think, and thattransformation. Can you just talk a little
bit about that moment and the whyme versus why not me? Sort of
philosophy or feeling? Yeah, soI think that first of all, the
(08:54):
context of that story, it's reallyspending years bit very sick and die people,
right, And so what we learnis that most people their first thing
was like, I can't believe thisis happening to me, and it's so
interesting in a certain way, becauseagain, if you think about the root
(09:16):
of the word interesting, which isinteresting, which is the space between And
again it's this idiocy that we allshare where we think we should know that
people get sick, can die likeeveryone in the arm. We know that,
(09:37):
but how we function is not acknowledgingthat at all. And so it's
very kind of crazy and part ofour shared craziness, I think. And
so we think that we're just waitingfor our life to unfold in a certain
way as opposed to really using ourlife. And so when I had that
(10:03):
experience, and I just remember eventhinking it's my dream, so like maybe
this, maybe this is the wayit goes. And it reminds me of
one of our students who was ina terrible kind of card tumble current accident
(10:24):
and as the car was tumbling,she just remember that could be like this,
right, and that there's this senseof of course, where the nature
to get a little bit older,where the nature gets sick, and for
the nature to die the things thatare most reliable. And it's so important
(10:50):
to me, and some people think, oh, it's so negative, it's
so depressing to think about that,but to me, it's actually the most
enlightening that I know, because thenyou realize my goodness, like we just
have now and we don't know aboutme and so mixed. To me,
(11:11):
that just like looking around seeing yourface, seeing everyone here is just delicious
and easy. Okay, Yeah,I have a lot of follow up questions
on the home feelings arise you haveYou have mentioned this in the book let
(11:41):
them come and go without picking themup. I love I'm a simple man,
so I love simple things like thatthat I can watch onto. It
seems so actionable to almost think ofyour feelings and your thoughts as drifting into
water and you can shoot you voteif you pick up vote, pick them
(12:01):
up and do something with them,or if you let them to about Is
that is that part? Or isthat something in training that you learned?
And tell me more about how youthought about that. Yeah, well the
first all, it's not like it'sa revival point, but it's it's a
(12:22):
practice. And so what I loveabout practice just thought opportunity to keep doing
it again and again. And whathappens to me is like that we're all
in this stream of our preference isthe stream of our feelings and the stream
of thoughts, and meditation practice actuallyhelps you to get out of the water
(12:43):
and dry off and actually not besoaked in your thoughts and feelings and begin
to dry out, which to meis almost like learning how to be an
adult. They're called adulting and andlearning how to really look at this river
(13:11):
of thoughts and feelings and look athow fascinating and what also a prisoner can
be to just be reacting and distractingourselves because we don't like what we're thinking
of feeling. And so the freedomthat comes from adulting and drying out and
actually enjoying seeing and having the joyto actually feel what you're feeling without being
(13:39):
feeling. I think you sup thatsbeautiful, And I think you summed up
in part of your writing. I'venever heard of explaining so succinctly as your
your feelings wilcome your your thoughts ifyou love them right, your thoughts wilcome
your words. Your words will becomeyour actions, and over time your actions
(14:01):
become your character and who you are. And so it all starts with that
stream of feelings and which one youpick up going to the end, of
the road becomes who you are asa person. What are some techniques to
not let your feelings becovery thoughts,into your words, into your actions.
What are some techniques that you maybeyou can share with the folks here.
(14:26):
Yeah, so for me, it'sthe what's the most helpful is the basic
instructions of sauce and which is seatedmeditation. And so when you're feeling or
I'm feeling like pretty activated and challenged, learning how to actually ground myself,
(14:46):
like really feeling your feet on theground wherever you are waiting for to cash
machine or whatever that is, andactually feeling your breath and your lower bellue
you know that. Yeah, canyou do that? Yeah, okay,
(15:09):
let's do it. Let's do it. So just like really taking your moment
to put your paint flat on thefloor and just taking a moment to gather
yourself and actually realize what my feetare on the floor. We're often not
(15:33):
even aware of that because we're solike an we're like a little severe head
and running rounds, and then bringingyour attention to your lower belly just below
your belly button and allowing them tobe soft, and then your shoulders just
(15:54):
seeing if you could open them justeven on Llowe or more so that you're
just a bit more open and alsoallowing your spine to be upright. So
for me, whenever I'm feeling acluster of feelings or getting caught by something,
(16:19):
which it does, just these verygrounded, soft, open and upright
to me him are so helpful andso simple, and yet it's like the
most simple. Then you constantly forgetand just notice what your mind feels like
(16:45):
you you just do that firmal andimagine if you started to really track what
you're feeling and as should versus.And he says, you know, to
allow the thoughts and was to kindin the front door and opened the back
door a lot with the true justnot invite fourteen. I love it.
(17:11):
I think that there's another story thatI wanted to do, so maybe talk
about what she was Williams to doup and that was there was a man
dying that he said, repeatedly,holy, hold me, can you tell
(17:32):
us that story. So this isearly in my clinical training, and I
was on call at night on SINEIand I was called in about three in
the morning. And oftentimes when situationsare very difficult, thing called the Chapliner
(17:53):
called someone else, you deal withthat, and so I man, and
they said, you know, I'mgoing up bed. There's a problem.
And when did pull back the screenthe curtain, and there was this little
(18:15):
kind of fern of a man,elderly man, curled up like a firm,
really beautiful actually, and really gaspingfor breath, as often is the
case when someone's very close to death. And the family were all pressed up
(18:36):
against the curtain, look almost likeas as if it was all like as
far away as possible. And Isaid, well, you know, my
name's pushing and how can I help? And they said, well, he's
saying something, but we don't knowwhat he's sang. And I just remember
(18:57):
thinking, but if you want togo and hear what he's saying, oh
no, no, no, no, you you go see, because it's
almost that they were afraid of death. And so I went over and he
what he was saying over and overagain was holding holy and so here's this
(19:21):
family who knows what the family downhamexport. And so I said, he
wants to be held and would wantif you like to hold him, and
they said, oh, so wedon't do that, And I said,
well, how about I told him, and someone holds me and they said
(19:41):
okay. So I wanted to makesome kind of bridge and connection, and
so I just helped him. Hekept saying r r R, and so
I sha ended up getting into bedwith this man and holding him gravely him
(20:03):
as he died. And as hewas dying he just said thank you.
And I had this since I mean, of course I don't know, but
I'm not sure if he had everbeen out. And I just wondered also
(20:25):
about all of us and how tobe to allow ourselves to be held into
newly as we actually often truly want, but often keep it at bay.
What was the family's reaction insperious,it was they cleaned it up very fast.
(20:48):
They're very appreciative, and they said, okay, you can go,
and that if your own home,kay back. Do you think it touched
the family? I don't know.Okay, are you? And showed often
(21:11):
in these types of situations were well, as I say in the beginning of
the book, you know some ofthe time where people who are know that
they're dying, and all the timeI spend the people who are dying,
I say, sitting here with you. Yes, okay, yeah, going
(21:44):
here, all right? Another anotherstory, another story I'm done here is
switching hears is the story of thethree giants, which is three anger and
delusion, and I don't know,can you tell us that story? Yeah?
(22:08):
So traditionally their thoughts the three poisons. So the first noble truth is
that life has suffering, that thatwe're all tangled into tangled, we ever
overwhelmed, my ever anxiety or stressed. And the second noble truth is that
(22:29):
there is a cause, and thecause are these three giants, which is
typically understood us the three voisons.You know, I think of also the
story of his starticle, but whotried a lot of different things out,
you know, before he got clear, and he was on some apps,
(22:52):
and he tried you know, yogastudio, he tried much Apollo in America
and you know for an armand nobut I aulates. But the story is
that he actually did all of thosethings, which I think is a contemporary
(23:14):
story, like we're still doing that. And at a certain point he realized,
I'm never going to get clear untilI face my fear, and so
he sat under what is now calledthe voting tree, which is a big
tree, fragrant, big tree andgot really clear about that he had to
(23:37):
sit there and instead of distracting himself, he was getting distracted even with all
of these different you know, appositeand traditions and retreats. And he realized
that he had to face what hewas most afraid of or he'll never be
free. And he did and hefaced and you know, I said,
(23:59):
Indian stories, so it's quite colorful, and you know, like you know,
the armies came against him of arage of anger and they have spears
or drawing at him, and allthe things he was afraid and also the
seduction of our delusions, like hewas told that if he could get up
(24:23):
for a little whit, you know, I'll give you a cookie or whatever
that is, sort you know,I think there's a cookie in the oven,
you know, whatever that is,and I greet you know, the
things that he wanted. You know, we're also presented to him that he
stayed there. So there so thesegiants of that we all have to reckon
(24:45):
with him. And what happened isthat he in the morning, after he
was meditated with the night, heput his hand down and said, oh,
house builder, thou art seen atlast the ridge pole is shattered.
Never more will you build a houseof sorrow. And so what he saw,
(25:06):
in kind of conventional terms, isthat he was creating his own sorrow
through his habits, through how he'sfeeling, how he was thinking, what
he was saying, what he wasdoing, and that he was responsible for
that. So it's these giants wherethat we have to reckon with our read
(25:26):
and how that takes us away fromwhat we value most, like how our
intoxication with more and not now andlater and what was? And the resentment
(25:48):
because I think anger also could begreat, but it is really important.
But I think that anger could whenit's turn into a resentment. And saw
someone recently, it was just likefilled with resentment. You could even see
it in their body. They're sotight. And you know the famous saying
says, you know, holding ontothat it's like drinking voice and expecting the
(26:11):
other person to die, right,And I think that we do that.
And the third is delusion, Solike thinking that I'm not you. And
to me this also comes back tobeing awake. You know, of course
you matter. Hello, nice tosee you. Are you here? So
(26:36):
it's like it's really and what Ithink is really helpful about you know,
some people called ancient wisdom, butyou know it's been around for twenty six
hundred years. The reason that's superhelpful and to me is that this is
nothing new, and we tend tothink it's how we personalize it, like,
(26:56):
oh, this is my problem,I'm just good have But this is
just being human. And I findthat super encouraging, Like how low people
have been dealing with this very atleast that's about eighty eight generations, So
it's our Why not me? Um? I think you kind of saw like
(27:22):
that in that story of instead ofwhat has been gotten to me, think
the good, the tree, thetreat instead of what has been done to
me? What can hide you?Differently? Can I transform a change?
He was just thinking about what's what'simpresses me, or what's coming at me,
(27:45):
or what's what's happening to me,because if you were you don't have
an agency and it's all these threegiants coming after you. Yeah, so
I think that was It's a goodway for me to make it. See
right. Well, I think it'salso that you know that we tend to
(28:07):
think of ourselves as acted upon bythe world. I can't believe this is
happening. It's like a common response. We actually we still live in this
other building and there's this morning Isaid old later all the time and it's
like, oh, good morning,how are you going? And she'd be
like, oh, it's terrible.Oh why is a terribles greening out?
(28:33):
And then the next day and seeher, how are you good? She's
like terrible? Why is that?Oh? Sunny right, no matter what
I want. And it's just sointeresting that we can have the habit of
just falling into that. And Ithink all of us have our own flavor
of that where we feel kind ofvictimized by out our circumstance, but I
(28:59):
think the opportunity. It's really howdo we take the agency and have the
courage to do something? Okay,um, I can't read, so here's
a here's a twist that you don'tknow about. The coaching must have been
(29:21):
the book I got jobs this ofcourse. But every morning you or you
know many mornings that you can't youwake up? Of course, you would
say, first, then you logonto a White Supremos website? What is
that action? Why don't commit?That sounds crazy? What does that actually
(29:44):
listen to do? It's part ofmy compassion trun you know, you know,
I remember as a kid, Iwould go with my dad to he
was a mom Dos person and somethingnever Romoss was like touring around and go
see rom Dos and I remember Ithink it was during Reagan years. And
then Ramdas said, you know,on my altar, I have a picture
(30:07):
of my GUR group and Reagan nexttaction and until I see them as equal,
I haven't really done any work.And so you know, I guess
I've been log on to the siteand I've still learned each day that it
(30:32):
takes me about a half a secondnot even to have the same kind of
judgmental violent thoughts like those like almostto be like and scared thoughts and aggressive
thoughts like they just come immediately asa reaction. So for me, it's
(30:52):
actually at the beginning of compassion,as I feel like it's actually the group
that I feel the most confused by, and so I'm trying to learn how
to find compassion. And so actuallyI've been able to locate and myself a
sameness of reactivity and protection and aggressionin myself, which tweet is the beginning
(31:22):
of connection. And they and theylove people I love people, so gay
Jewish rudism, a lot of thewhites and Privacy site. You're sort of
going to the extreme. It's prettyextreme as far as you can go in
(31:44):
order to train yourself to copy thosethose fears, in those feelings, to
see them directly. Because also Iinherited. I think many of us have
inherited. So many of our arewhat we think of our as our own
thoughts. And so I grew up, you know, and I write about
(32:05):
this too, but where my grandfatherused to like hold this okay, every
time I visited, I'm just calledthe indestructible juices liked and you know,
and there was realist because that hiswholeness and family was wiped down in the
Holocaust. So there's good reasons forthat. And I think that it was
also this super intolerance that he hadand fear that he had, and so
(32:34):
and actually that was the same withmost of my grandparents. And so I
grew up with that kind of indoctrinationof not trusting and learning how to love
and compassion to me is the mostimportant things, beautiful. I was just
(32:55):
gonna ask one more about the center, which is the visions willing to turn
fear into courageous compassion. Can youtell us what that means to you?
That our work and everyone's works within sense and what'd you guys are trying
(33:20):
to accomplish the center? What wedo three things and one of them is
Zend training, and so it's likeagain learning how to see that we're the
house builder, and learning how topay attention and having enough courage to need
it, and the other pieces thatwe do. We have a strong education
(33:44):
program where we are inviting people toalso practice and engage. And I would
say all of our trainings are abouthow do you see your values and how
do you see your action and howdo you bring them together. So,
whether it's our Foundations and Contemplative Character, which is a nine month training to
(34:07):
really engage you won't into how youare serving the world and really looking at
your intrapersonal and your interpersonal connections andreally learning about how to breach that gap.
And our Contemplative Medicine Fellowship for ourphysicians and their practitioners and physician assistance.
(34:30):
And again it's also really about howdo we start with how we're really
overwhelmed and burnt out and afraid andin danger because actually those of the people
in our society that our most atrisk ur divorce, leaving the profession done
(34:50):
by suicide, alcoholism, and sowe're really providing messin to the people that
actually everyone depends on. And thethird main thing that we do is again
to say impact us. And wehave a ninety day commit to Sit,
which is a chance for people tosay, all right, I'm gonna start
(35:12):
and really engaged. I'm going tocommit to sit for maybe five minutes a
day, maybe thirty minutes a day. And we have talks once a week,
and we have amazing teachers whom acrossthe United States and Japan to encourage
people too. And this January we'restarting to look at a beautiful teacher and
Joe go Back and her teachings onwonder and so so that's um anyone here
(35:38):
and you could involved in commits SIconcluding Jay, I'm on side of our
man, and there's actually a feware puting the back. Simply Sandy Fohan
sign up and it starts January tolive them. So you have time after
the hallidays for you've actually so senseand I think you commit to sit and
(36:02):
that's an easy light way way tobolt of the sens and a renof that
it is and what's the good thingthat you have to do? Do that
at your home. You can cometo them, you can come to the
center everybody. Most people come Hlneand we have a pipe rate of the
opportunities. And also every morning Ireceived a teaching from this text and some
(36:23):
reflections to and so that's just areally wonderful way to participate and a deep
think, what are for me?The world needs more wonder and so how
we bring a deeper sense of wonderby through commitment. It's so interesting.
(36:45):
It's earlier in my life I wouldhave said, you know, being a
rebel is like a repel and thelong bold place to think that was really
great. And what I realized isthat I was just nowhere, and so
learning how to commit for a periodsof time could be super helpful in beginning
(37:05):
to change. Hats say sorry,Ja, thanks so much for listening to
Soul and Science, and we'll seeyou next week. Soul and Science is
(37:27):
a mechanism podcast produced by Maggie Bowles, Ryan Tillotson, Tyler Nielsen, Emma
Swanson and Lily Jablonsky. The showis edited by Daniel Ferreira with theme music
by Kyle Merritt and I'm your HostJason Harris
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