January 30, 2023 • 26 mins
It can feel impossible to express the human condition, so we look to great artists, writers and even advertising creatives to do the job. Pranav Yadav, Founder and Global CEO of Neuro-Insight, saw how inconsistent people were doing field interviews–one memorable study tried to find out why people gamble in Las Vegas. A more innate truth was to be found in neuromarketing, which measures neural signals by electrodes to track emotional responses. Yadav brilliantly reads the data and helps marketers, including TJ Maxx and Anheuser Busch, make ads that both stir emotions and hit the right pitch.
In this episode you’ll learn:
In this episode you’ll learn:
- What neruomarketing is and how it’s innovating the way brands are built.
- What people say in the first hour of a focus group is different from what they say in the second or fourth hour and it really doesn't correlate to actual in-market purchase behavior.
- Creative is an idea that engages people, but an ad has the additional responsibility of associating the brand at the peak emotional moment.
- The beauty of life is that if you are open enough to learning, it teaches you everything you need to know.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You know. The difference between acreative and an AD is that creative is
an idea that engages people in waysthey may not have done before. But
an AD has the additional responsibility ofmaking sure that the brand association happens at
the moments where people are most engaged. And unless and until a creative is
(00:22):
able to do that, it isnot an AD. It is just an
entertainment. Does marketing live in theheart or in the head? Should you
trust your instinct or your integers?If the answer is both, should you
leave with one more than the other. A Mechanism we build brands with soul
and science. Soul is the blendingof inspired creative that pulls an audience in,
(00:43):
and science is the hard data todrive business results. So join me
Jason Harris, co founder and CEOof Mechanism my quest to answer these questions
with the world's leading marketers from thebrands we've all come to love. Hello,
fellow marketers. This week we're joinedby Pranav Yadov, Founder and Global
(01:04):
CEO of neuro Insight. Pranavs howinconsistent people were with their answers in field
interviews, and he knew there hadto be a better way. A more
innate truth was to be found inneuromarketing, which measures neural signals by electrodes
to track subconscious emotional responses. Hebrilliantly reads the data and helps marketers including
(01:26):
TJ Max and Anheuser Busch make adsthat not only stir emotions, but they
also reach business goals. In thisepisode, we're going to learn what neuromarketing
is and how it's innovating the waybrands are built. We're going to learn
what people say in the first hourof a focus group is different from what
they might say in the second,third, or fourth hour, and it
(01:46):
really doesn't correlate to actual in marketpurchase behavior. We're also going to learn
that creative is an idea that engagespeople, but an AD has the additional
responsibility of associating the brand at thatpeak emotional moment. And finally, we're
going to learn that the beauty oflife is if you're open enough to learning,
it teaches you everything you need toknow. Let's dive right in.
(02:14):
What is your origin story? Howdid you get into what you're doing?
Now? Here's here's a bit ofthe origin story. While most of the
people who look at my blonde hairand blue eyes and listen to my accent
think that I come from Sweden.After a while, it becomes clear that
I was born in India. ButI was born in you know, a
(02:34):
socialist India, you know, withone TV channel, one brand of cook
and was a very different world.So when I was about fifteen years old,
I read and add in the newspaperthat said the Singaporean government are going
to pick thirty students to go toboarding school in Singapore. So, you
know, at the age of fifteen, with a couple hundred bucks in my
(02:55):
pocket and a scholarship, I lefthome to live in Singapore. And then,
you know, when I was inSingapore, similar story. I got
lucky again and I got a rightto come to the States for college.
So, you know, I wentto a small, private liberal arts college
in Minnesota. So after graduating fromcollege, I was in a bit of
(03:16):
a situation where most of the peoplewho went to college with me wanted to
save the world, and their backgroundsafforded them a life where they could go
to Peace Corps or teach for America. Those were two of the most popular
things that kids did out of mycollege and so you were sort of away
from home at a pretty early ageand sort of stayed away from home.
(03:37):
Yeah, yeah, I would.I mean that's physically correct correct, but
emotionally always been attached and I alwayshave found new homes wherever I've gone.
The thing about people who come fromlimited resources, and especially Asian cultures,
is that there's a lot of emphasisput on achievement and the unit coming together
(04:00):
to enable that achievement. I can'ttell you the number of stories I have
from my childhood where families would wouldtake loans to send their kids to,
you know, their dream universities.Someone could have made forty thousand dollars a
year, you know, twenty thousanddollars a year, and then take a
loan that would take them ten yearsto pay off just to send their kids
(04:21):
to you know, college abroad.And I was, you know, in
a situation where I was getting opportunitiesto do these things on my own merit
and was lucky enough to get thesefull rights. So that made the decision
a little easier because it was adesirable experience. That famous Seneca quote,
luck is what happens when preparation meetsopportunity. You mentioned it was lucky,
(04:45):
But was it really you and yourfamily prepared you for an opportunity like this
to happen, And if it wasn'tthis one, it could have been another
one. But you were kind ofbound for success. People who get success
make a lot meaning out of thethings that may have happened to them randomly.
Obviously, I say, preparation,intelligence, the right spirit, all
(05:09):
of these things are table sticks.Yet at the same time, I know
that I've tried many things in mylife that I've failed at, and if
I really were that good, Iwould be successful at everything. So the
fact that these specific things happened inthe order and at times in my life
that they did, I do attributeall of that to luck. That is
(05:29):
not to say that had those thingsnot happened, other good things would not
have happened, because I did preparedand I did work hard. But the
specific instances in which it happens,you know, you actually have to attribute
a lot of it to just luckand chance. You know, I have
two kids. I can't imagine thembeing prepared for an opportunity at an age
like that. Yeah, I mean, there's no fifteen year old in the
(05:50):
world who is especially prepared for anysituation of being by themselves in a foreign
country, having to manage money,etc. The beauty of life is that
if you are open enough to learning, it teaches you quickly enough. And
I've seen, regardless of culture,as long as people present themselves to life
(06:12):
as a student, life will makesure that it is a fantastic teacher to
you. That's great. And soafter everyone's going off on these other purpose
driven, feel good social endeavors,this leads you to where this leads me
to trading structured equity derivatives on theGoldman Sachs trading floor. So I just
(06:34):
graduated. That was my first jobout of college. And as you can
imagine, graduating and starting a jobin July in two thousand and seven,
and then what came next? Therecession hits a year after you're into work,
do you get laid off or no? No, no, no,
I you know again, the Iknew that it wasn't a place that I
(06:55):
wanted to stay in, but myIndian upbringing had had prepared me in such
a way where I wanted to proveto myself that I was good enough to
be there. So it was onlywhen I got promoted at the end of
my analyst years to continue to stayon that. I raised my hand and
I actually quit in the middle ofrecession. It was one of the toughest
(07:17):
things that I've done, and Ialso think it's one of the stupidest things
I've done. But I try tokeep some of that idealism of youth that
forces you to make decisions that rationalityotherwise asks you not to do. So.
Yeah, I quitted the peak ofrecession in two thousand and nine to
then eventually, through a lot ofhard work, find a job at a
(07:40):
Danish innovation strategy consulting firm. Wasthat Red Associates, that's right, yeah,
there. My first project was togo to India and figure out why
despite it being one hundred and twentydegrees in the summer, Indians don't buy
air conditioners. My second project wasto actually go to Copenhagen and look at
data from about one hundred and fiftiescities across two hundred and fifty variables for
(08:01):
the past fifty years and quantitatively forthe first time figured out what are the
reasons why cities fail and then workwith the Biarka Ingles Group, which is
a great architectural firm and our upto them present a design for a city
for the future, which was featuredin the Venice B and L. And
then I was sent to Vegas tofigure out why people gamble, and the
(08:22):
crux of all of that work wassocial scientific research. And it was during
that time that I had, forthe first time in my life realized what
people say in the first hour isdifferent from what they say in the second
hour, is completely contradictory to whatthey say in the fourth hour, and
none of those things are the thingswhy they actually may make a decision too.
So what is it amongst us,you know, in our brains?
(08:46):
What is this subconscious Why do weto do things the way we do?
And why is this measurement of whatpeople say or what people report such a
bad measurement to have because it reallydoesn't correlate to in market per behavior.
And that's what led to my interestin neuroscience and then founding this company.
And then you were a CEO attwenty five, how do you go from
(09:07):
you have your second job and thenyou become a founder. I was very
driven by the idea of businesses beingthe big culture makers in life and society
and them needing the tools to actuallybe those leaders for culture in life and
society. I was also convinced thatthe tools they had at hand were not
(09:31):
enough for them to be able todo that. And so during that time
I was introduced to this neuroscientist inAustralia who had invented this remarkable technology and
originally invented an ADHD research with particularlygood correlations to predicting future behavior and being
able to measure long term memory.And so after a few meetings, we
decided to give this a shot totruly commercialize the technology in ways businesses have
(09:56):
never done before. All Right,I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions
about the company. First, whatdo you think makes Perna Purna? What
unique characteristics do you feel like youhave that makes you who you are?
I think it is one having aset of data points that most others may
not have had. That unique setof data points from you know, having
(10:20):
grown up in socialist India to nowgetting to see everything that the world has
to offer in terms of the materialand the riches and the cutting edge thought.
So the set of ideas, experiencesand the unique range. So having
more data points and a unique setof data points. You know, otherwise
(10:43):
being considered by people like yourself aquantitative guy because I may have triple majored
in mathematics, physics, and economics, but at the same time, by
people who know me in my otherlife, considered a poet and a philosopher
because that's kind of where most ofmy conversations go. And I don't see
(11:03):
the distinction between the two. Soone having the variety of data points,
and two to be able to connectdata points in ways that may be unique
to me. So I would sayjust the breadth of experience and being able
to connect dots is what makes meuniquely me, not better or worse than
anybody, but uniquely me. Canyou give me a in real life brand
(11:24):
example of something that you've done fora client. Of course, so here's
one of my favorite ones to use. But we can talk about a lot
more. Do you remember the Budweiserpuppy commercial from the Super Bowl from twenty
fourteen fifteen? Yes, it's calledLost Dog. Okay, there's this guy
(11:46):
on the farm who has a littlepuppy. Everybody loves the puppy, and
there's a bunch of these beautiful Clydesdale'son the farm and it's a lovely little
farm household. And one day thepuppy gets out and gets lost and gets
lost, and it gets dark andit's in the woods. The clouds come
together, and there's in the background. The music gets tense, and there's
(12:07):
a wolf staring at the dog,and you can hear the puppy tremble,
and everybody is tense as to whatis going to happen. And remarkably,
the music takes over and these Clydesdalescome running and they're standing behind the dog.
Scare the wolf away and then walkthe dog home. The owner is
so happy to see the dog,and you know it's it's all lovely.
(12:31):
Now. At the end of thisthe music comes to an end, a
red screen takes over and says BudweiserNoah number one ad in the ad meter
in the Super Bowl. And wewe tested this ad and then we were
like, wow, it does nothingfor Budweiser because essentially, through years of
evolution, our brains have come tolook at stories in quanta in chunks,
(12:56):
and the only thing that impacts ourfuture behavior is we call long term memory
and coding. All the emotion,relevance, other things are drivers of memory.
But unless and until something makes itinto your long term memory, you
don't have access to that information ifyou don't commit it to memory. So,
as we're consuming this beautiful story,you know, you see this peak
(13:18):
in memory and coding at the pointwhen the cly sales come and rescue the
puppy and all of that. Butas we give the hint that the story
is coming to an end with themusic dying down and the puppy reuniting with
the owner, you actually see memorydrip. When we call it conceptual closure,
which is that at this point,the brain's concluded that there's nothing more
(13:41):
in this story for me to consume, and it's no longer committing this to
memory because now it has to rearrangethings in this brain and commit that to
the section that is going to commitit to And if we're going to present
the brand, then you know it'snot going to drive any behavior for the
brand. And essentially, you know, we had that, and then we
went to Annah has a Bush,who by the way, wasn't a client
(14:03):
at that time, and presented themthis data and said, well, we
don't think this ad will be successful, and they're like, what are you
talking about. Everybody's saying that thisad is remarkable, and then obviously they
had their numbers, and then theywent out publicly saying that these ads don't
help us and we'd never be producingthese ads again because they have zero impact
(14:24):
on beer sales. They went onrecord to say that, and we've worked
with Anna has A Bush ever since, and we've worked on every single Super
Bowl campaign that's happened since. Sopoint is it is able to look at
not just what aspects of the storydeeply resonate at the subconscious level. But
you know the difference between a creativeand an AD is that creative is an
(14:48):
idea that engages people in ways thatthey may not have done before. But
an AD has the additional responsibility ofmaking sure that the brand association, whether
it's called to action or just longterm brand linkage, happens at the moments
where people are most engaged. Andunless and until a creative is able to
(15:09):
do that, it is not anAD. It is just an entertainment.
So in this case, you know, we were able to optimize, and
many other cases, optimized for wherethe brand must appear for it to actually
be impactful in terms of the storytellingarc. What would the change that you
suggested that they didn't make because youproactively pitched them and it was too late.
(15:30):
Yeah, fantastic question. I meanthe change we would make is to
make sure that you find a wayto integrate the brand at the point of
peak engagement. And in this case, either you take branding up by three
seconds and not wait for your songto die out and the story to conclude
for you to brand it. Andbranding doesn't need to be a big red
(15:52):
screen. Branding could be subtle.It's a great example. It's a very
clear example. It's still ranked reallyhigh and did well, and so they
might have pat themselves on the backand say we don't need this technology,
but they do need it because it'snot having business outcome exactly right. More
recently, we looked at a Tjmaxcreative which was meant to empower women and
(16:15):
it was like this entire story ofwomen sitting at the bar and taking a
bag and putting on the next seatand saying take space. They thought,
that is the brand of feminism thatis going on in the market. But
guess what women don't want that theyknow that it is obnoxious to do that,
and when we actually again put thatcreative through our technology, we're seeing
(16:36):
constant withdrawal response as women are reactingto this creative that is actually supposed to
appeal to women. So you know, this is a creative that is not
just not helping the brand, it'sactually hurting the brand because it's creating the
exact opposite associations that we'd want withthe brand. How does the actual technology
like function? Like? How doesit work in this world where businesses trade
(17:00):
trillions of dollars every year on inventingnew products, coming out with strategies,
ideas, and then marketing and advertising. All of these things are based on
what we call self reported data,what people say, whether it's on a
survey or it's on a focus group, and at best, any of these
things correlate to actual people's behavior ata twenty four percent level, which means
(17:26):
only a quarter of the time doyou actually get the right answer. We
ourselves don't know what actually truly drivesour decision making. So neuromarketing is our
way of being able to use neuroscience, this technology where we stick electrodes on
your heads and look at the electricalactivity in different parts of your brain to
(17:47):
be able to see your subconscious reactionto things, not rely on what you
say, but we actually be ableto see what is truly resonating with you
at a deep level and what you'relikely to react to as you're beginning to
make decisions. So let's say wedid some work for Spotify, right.
Essentially, Spotify wants to figure outhow people respond to the variety of the
(18:10):
genres that are on Spotify, butalso the variety of ads that show up
on Spotify, and how people receiveany kind of advertising within the platform.
At that point, we'd essentially getthe brief from Spotify like, this is
our target audience for this genre.Let's say you know, one's rap and
the other one's pop. So we'dgo out and recruit that target audience.
(18:34):
They'd essentially come to our facility inlike groups of eight or ten. They'd
log into their phones and they'd begoing to the Spotify experience as they usually
do, and they wear these headcapsthat have different kinds of electrodes that are
looking at the speed of the electricalactivity in different parts of the brain,
and after they're done, would likesay a thirty minute session, they leave,
(18:57):
and we can do that over andover again for a variety of people.
Once we hit the minimal sample size, which for a group of people
needs to be between fifty and sixty, we pull in all of this data
and then we're able to see howpeople responded in a statistically significant way to
the variety of things that we testit. And just to conclude the Spotify
(19:18):
example, one of the things thatwe were able to look at was that
the way advertising interacts with content isa particularly nuanced thing, and if you
actually understand that science, you're ableto make sure your ad is able to
impact a lot more in a certainsituation. So, for example, in
Wrap, your brain is in thezone of actually listening to the lyrics and
(19:41):
be on with the rhyme and gowith the meter, and you're paying a
lot of attention to the detail ofwhat is said. But in Pop I
have Katy Perry singing about like arather big picture thing or a breakup.
It's more, as we call inscientific terms, more global rather than more
detail oriented. And in that advertisingaround big picture ideas or storylines around big
(20:04):
picture ideas about that product may resonatein a much more deeper fashion. So
you know, that was the workwith Spotify, and that's how we do
it. By bringing people to afacility, sticking electrodes and just observing how
their brains react without any instruction orquestioning. It seems so rational and helpful.
Are you surprised when brands don't getit? And are there still those
(20:27):
cases? Yes? See, Isay it with all humility because of the
work of Richard. I don't thinkthere has been a room that we've walked
into in the past where people haven'tbeen blown away or fascinated by the work
that we can produce, whether ornot they sign a check to actually do
this work as a whole different story, and you begin to actually see how
(20:51):
businesses work, how budgets are allotted, who is given what power to make
what decision. I always would liketo sell more so I would always say
it's a harder thing to sell thanit needs to be. That said,
I think the work is to applyour own learning of subconscious human understanding to
our business and understand what would drivepeople to actually do more of this.
I feel like what you guys haveand where the market is is really colliding
(21:18):
in a really interesting way today.Do you have any role models that helped
you guide you, both personally orprofessionally. I do. My friend,
philosopher and guide is this gentleman namedJohn Zwig who's had a remarkable career in
advertising himself, but outside of it, you know, is a war veteran,
(21:41):
is a phenomenal jazz guitar player who'splayed with Facts Sinatra, and I
just look at him and just inamazement because the experience that he has in
life and the things that he getsto share with me give me a lot
of belief in life and our abilityto to flow with it. So he's
(22:02):
someone who you know, I considervery close and someone who's really helped me
become who I've become. But thereare a couple of poets who really inspire
me. I may not have metthem, but you know fifteenth century Indian
poet by the name of Kabir,who I think is the best poet I've
read of all times, because hesummarizes life life in these couplets. These
(22:26):
two liners were just insane wisdom.And in the present day there's another poet
by the name of Javi Dakta who'sagain just this remarkable philosophical, deep character
who analyzes life for what it is. So these are people who inspire me.
Do you have a favorite quote ormantra that helps you get through things?
Yes, there are plenty, butI'll give you one. It's it's
(22:48):
a Sanskrit word. It's called ahambrahmas me, and essentially it means that,
loosely translated, that I'm one withthe universe, and I say that
for it to not be interpreted aslike it also could mean that I'm divine.
But the context is that you know, while in the West, the
world is looked at from the lengthsof that life is finite and time is
(23:12):
linear, and that at the endof your life there's a balance sheet and
net profit you go to heaven,net loss you go to hell, and
that relationship between you and divinity isthat of like master and server. But
the Eastern mindset is that life isin finite, time is cyclical because there
(23:32):
is no end to this, thereis no balance sheet, and the relationship
between you and divinity is that youare divinity and it is on you to
actually find your path to finding themagical powers that you may possess. So
the work starts within so I haveto remind myself of the greater purpose that
we are all one and one withthe universe, and we've got to think
(23:56):
like that to be able to achievewhat we want to achieve. Where do
you feel like you're the most creativeor the most productive? That place is
happens during a certain time in theday, between the hours of midnight and
two am. After I've been listeningto a particular kind of sufi music for
a couple hours, and I feellike I can find that zone no matter
(24:18):
where I am in the world.I just need the space to be able
to dig deep enough to understand,you know, the deep poetic things that
I'm listening to, and it putsme in that zone where I feel like
I can solve any problems. Doyou have something that you feel like you
know, I'm gonna do this thingone point in my life. At this
point in twenty twenty three, wehave more billionaires and more money than there's
(24:41):
ever existed on this planet, andyet we have a billion people who sleep
hungry every night, and I justI find it very difficult to live with
that contradiction. You know, oneof the things I want to be able
to achieve is raise the awareness forthe idea that you know, we are
deeper beings than that, and asa society and as a community, we
(25:04):
need to be doing things that essentiallymove the entire human project forward rather than
solving for individual needs. And Ihave fully participated, by the way in
the in the idea of you know, wealth creation. But yeah, I
feel that I find that part ofme calling me all the time. And
(25:26):
my outstanding goal is to just raiseawareness for the idea that, guys,
there may be something more than whatwe've been pursuing. I love that last
question. Describe your business style inone word, magic magic Damn all right,
I like that. All right,Thanks, this was great another episode
(25:47):
of Soul and Science in the books. We appreciate you being on. I
can't wait to see what you donext. Thanks, thank you, Jess.
Thanks so much for listening to Souland Science ants and we'll see you
next week. Soul and Science isa mechanism podcast produced by Maggie Bowls,
Ryan Tillotson, Tyler Nielsen, EmmaSwanson, and Lily Jablonsky. The show
(26:11):
is edited by Daniel Ferrara, withtheme music by Kyle Merritt. And I'm
your host, Jason Harris
You know. The difference between acreative and an AD is that creative is
an idea that engages people in waysthey may not have done before. But
an AD has the additional responsibility ofmaking sure that the brand association happens at
the moments where people are most engaged. And unless and until a creative is
(00:22):
able to do that, it isnot an AD. It is just an
entertainment. Does marketing live in theheart or in the head? Should you
trust your instinct or your integers?If the answer is both, should you
leave with one more than the other. A Mechanism we build brands with soul
and science. Soul is the blendingof inspired creative that pulls an audience in,
(00:43):
and science is the hard data todrive business results. So join me
Jason Harris, co founder and CEOof Mechanism my quest to answer these questions
with the world's leading marketers from thebrands we've all come to love. Hello,
fellow marketers. This week we're joinedby Pranav Yadov, Founder and Global
(01:04):
CEO of neuro Insight. Pranavs howinconsistent people were with their answers in field
interviews, and he knew there hadto be a better way. A more
innate truth was to be found inneuromarketing, which measures neural signals by electrodes
to track subconscious emotional responses. Hebrilliantly reads the data and helps marketers including
(01:26):
TJ Max and Anheuser Busch make adsthat not only stir emotions, but they
also reach business goals. In thisepisode, we're going to learn what neuromarketing
is and how it's innovating the waybrands are built. We're going to learn
what people say in the first hourof a focus group is different from what
they might say in the second,third, or fourth hour, and it
(01:46):
really doesn't correlate to actual in marketpurchase behavior. We're also going to learn
that creative is an idea that engagespeople, but an AD has the additional
responsibility of associating the brand at thatpeak emotional moment. And finally, we're
going to learn that the beauty oflife is if you're open enough to learning,
it teaches you everything you need toknow. Let's dive right in.
(02:14):
What is your origin story? Howdid you get into what you're doing?
Now? Here's here's a bit ofthe origin story. While most of the
people who look at my blonde hairand blue eyes and listen to my accent
think that I come from Sweden.After a while, it becomes clear that
I was born in India. ButI was born in you know, a
(02:34):
socialist India, you know, withone TV channel, one brand of cook
and was a very different world.So when I was about fifteen years old,
I read and add in the newspaperthat said the Singaporean government are going
to pick thirty students to go toboarding school in Singapore. So, you
know, at the age of fifteen, with a couple hundred bucks in my
(02:55):
pocket and a scholarship, I lefthome to live in Singapore. And then,
you know, when I was inSingapore, similar story. I got
lucky again and I got a rightto come to the States for college.
So, you know, I wentto a small, private liberal arts college
in Minnesota. So after graduating fromcollege, I was in a bit of
(03:16):
a situation where most of the peoplewho went to college with me wanted to
save the world, and their backgroundsafforded them a life where they could go
to Peace Corps or teach for America. Those were two of the most popular
things that kids did out of mycollege and so you were sort of away
from home at a pretty early ageand sort of stayed away from home.
(03:37):
Yeah, yeah, I would.I mean that's physically correct correct, but
emotionally always been attached and I alwayshave found new homes wherever I've gone.
The thing about people who come fromlimited resources, and especially Asian cultures,
is that there's a lot of emphasisput on achievement and the unit coming together
(04:00):
to enable that achievement. I can'ttell you the number of stories I have
from my childhood where families would wouldtake loans to send their kids to,
you know, their dream universities.Someone could have made forty thousand dollars a
year, you know, twenty thousanddollars a year, and then take a
loan that would take them ten yearsto pay off just to send their kids
(04:21):
to you know, college abroad.And I was, you know, in
a situation where I was getting opportunitiesto do these things on my own merit
and was lucky enough to get thesefull rights. So that made the decision
a little easier because it was adesirable experience. That famous Seneca quote,
luck is what happens when preparation meetsopportunity. You mentioned it was lucky,
(04:45):
But was it really you and yourfamily prepared you for an opportunity like this
to happen, And if it wasn'tthis one, it could have been another
one. But you were kind ofbound for success. People who get success
make a lot meaning out of thethings that may have happened to them randomly.
Obviously, I say, preparation,intelligence, the right spirit, all
(05:09):
of these things are table sticks.Yet at the same time, I know
that I've tried many things in mylife that I've failed at, and if
I really were that good, Iwould be successful at everything. So the
fact that these specific things happened inthe order and at times in my life
that they did, I do attributeall of that to luck. That is
(05:29):
not to say that had those thingsnot happened, other good things would not
have happened, because I did preparedand I did work hard. But the
specific instances in which it happens,you know, you actually have to attribute
a lot of it to just luckand chance. You know, I have
two kids. I can't imagine thembeing prepared for an opportunity at an age
like that. Yeah, I mean, there's no fifteen year old in the
(05:50):
world who is especially prepared for anysituation of being by themselves in a foreign
country, having to manage money,etc. The beauty of life is that
if you are open enough to learning, it teaches you quickly enough. And
I've seen, regardless of culture,as long as people present themselves to life
(06:12):
as a student, life will makesure that it is a fantastic teacher to
you. That's great. And soafter everyone's going off on these other purpose
driven, feel good social endeavors,this leads you to where this leads me
to trading structured equity derivatives on theGoldman Sachs trading floor. So I just
(06:34):
graduated. That was my first jobout of college. And as you can
imagine, graduating and starting a jobin July in two thousand and seven,
and then what came next? Therecession hits a year after you're into work,
do you get laid off or no? No, no, no,
I you know again, the Iknew that it wasn't a place that I
(06:55):
wanted to stay in, but myIndian upbringing had had prepared me in such
a way where I wanted to proveto myself that I was good enough to
be there. So it was onlywhen I got promoted at the end of
my analyst years to continue to stayon that. I raised my hand and
I actually quit in the middle ofrecession. It was one of the toughest
(07:17):
things that I've done, and Ialso think it's one of the stupidest things
I've done. But I try tokeep some of that idealism of youth that
forces you to make decisions that rationalityotherwise asks you not to do. So.
Yeah, I quitted the peak ofrecession in two thousand and nine to
then eventually, through a lot ofhard work, find a job at a
(07:40):
Danish innovation strategy consulting firm. Wasthat Red Associates, that's right, yeah,
there. My first project was togo to India and figure out why
despite it being one hundred and twentydegrees in the summer, Indians don't buy
air conditioners. My second project wasto actually go to Copenhagen and look at
data from about one hundred and fiftiescities across two hundred and fifty variables for
(08:01):
the past fifty years and quantitatively forthe first time figured out what are the
reasons why cities fail and then workwith the Biarka Ingles Group, which is
a great architectural firm and our upto them present a design for a city
for the future, which was featuredin the Venice B and L. And
then I was sent to Vegas tofigure out why people gamble, and the
(08:22):
crux of all of that work wassocial scientific research. And it was during
that time that I had, forthe first time in my life realized what
people say in the first hour isdifferent from what they say in the second
hour, is completely contradictory to whatthey say in the fourth hour, and
none of those things are the thingswhy they actually may make a decision too.
So what is it amongst us,you know, in our brains?
(08:46):
What is this subconscious Why do weto do things the way we do?
And why is this measurement of whatpeople say or what people report such a
bad measurement to have because it reallydoesn't correlate to in market per behavior.
And that's what led to my interestin neuroscience and then founding this company.
And then you were a CEO attwenty five, how do you go from
(09:07):
you have your second job and thenyou become a founder. I was very
driven by the idea of businesses beingthe big culture makers in life and society
and them needing the tools to actuallybe those leaders for culture in life and
society. I was also convinced thatthe tools they had at hand were not
(09:31):
enough for them to be able todo that. And so during that time
I was introduced to this neuroscientist inAustralia who had invented this remarkable technology and
originally invented an ADHD research with particularlygood correlations to predicting future behavior and being
able to measure long term memory.And so after a few meetings, we
decided to give this a shot totruly commercialize the technology in ways businesses have
(09:56):
never done before. All Right,I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions
about the company. First, whatdo you think makes Perna Purna? What
unique characteristics do you feel like youhave that makes you who you are?
I think it is one having aset of data points that most others may
not have had. That unique setof data points from you know, having
(10:20):
grown up in socialist India to nowgetting to see everything that the world has
to offer in terms of the materialand the riches and the cutting edge thought.
So the set of ideas, experiencesand the unique range. So having
more data points and a unique setof data points. You know, otherwise
(10:43):
being considered by people like yourself aquantitative guy because I may have triple majored
in mathematics, physics, and economics, but at the same time, by
people who know me in my otherlife, considered a poet and a philosopher
because that's kind of where most ofmy conversations go. And I don't see
(11:03):
the distinction between the two. Soone having the variety of data points,
and two to be able to connectdata points in ways that may be unique
to me. So I would sayjust the breadth of experience and being able
to connect dots is what makes meuniquely me, not better or worse than
anybody, but uniquely me. Canyou give me a in real life brand
(11:24):
example of something that you've done fora client. Of course, so here's
one of my favorite ones to use. But we can talk about a lot
more. Do you remember the Budweiserpuppy commercial from the Super Bowl from twenty
fourteen fifteen? Yes, it's calledLost Dog. Okay, there's this guy
(11:46):
on the farm who has a littlepuppy. Everybody loves the puppy, and
there's a bunch of these beautiful Clydesdale'son the farm and it's a lovely little
farm household. And one day thepuppy gets out and gets lost and gets
lost, and it gets dark andit's in the woods. The clouds come
together, and there's in the background. The music gets tense, and there's
(12:07):
a wolf staring at the dog,and you can hear the puppy tremble,
and everybody is tense as to whatis going to happen. And remarkably,
the music takes over and these Clydesdalescome running and they're standing behind the dog.
Scare the wolf away and then walkthe dog home. The owner is
so happy to see the dog,and you know it's it's all lovely.
(12:31):
Now. At the end of thisthe music comes to an end, a
red screen takes over and says BudweiserNoah number one ad in the ad meter
in the Super Bowl. And wewe tested this ad and then we were
like, wow, it does nothingfor Budweiser because essentially, through years of
evolution, our brains have come tolook at stories in quanta in chunks,
(12:56):
and the only thing that impacts ourfuture behavior is we call long term memory
and coding. All the emotion,relevance, other things are drivers of memory.
But unless and until something makes itinto your long term memory, you
don't have access to that information ifyou don't commit it to memory. So,
as we're consuming this beautiful story,you know, you see this peak
(13:18):
in memory and coding at the pointwhen the cly sales come and rescue the
puppy and all of that. Butas we give the hint that the story
is coming to an end with themusic dying down and the puppy reuniting with
the owner, you actually see memorydrip. When we call it conceptual closure,
which is that at this point,the brain's concluded that there's nothing more
(13:41):
in this story for me to consume, and it's no longer committing this to
memory because now it has to rearrangethings in this brain and commit that to
the section that is going to commitit to And if we're going to present
the brand, then you know it'snot going to drive any behavior for the
brand. And essentially, you know, we had that, and then we
went to Annah has a Bush,who by the way, wasn't a client
(14:03):
at that time, and presented themthis data and said, well, we
don't think this ad will be successful, and they're like, what are you
talking about. Everybody's saying that thisad is remarkable, and then obviously they
had their numbers, and then theywent out publicly saying that these ads don't
help us and we'd never be producingthese ads again because they have zero impact
(14:24):
on beer sales. They went onrecord to say that, and we've worked
with Anna has A Bush ever since, and we've worked on every single Super
Bowl campaign that's happened since. Sopoint is it is able to look at
not just what aspects of the storydeeply resonate at the subconscious level. But
you know the difference between a creativeand an AD is that creative is an
(14:48):
idea that engages people in ways thatthey may not have done before. But
an AD has the additional responsibility ofmaking sure that the brand association, whether
it's called to action or just longterm brand linkage, happens at the moments
where people are most engaged. Andunless and until a creative is able to
(15:09):
do that, it is not anAD. It is just an entertainment.
So in this case, you know, we were able to optimize, and
many other cases, optimized for wherethe brand must appear for it to actually
be impactful in terms of the storytellingarc. What would the change that you
suggested that they didn't make because youproactively pitched them and it was too late.
(15:30):
Yeah, fantastic question. I meanthe change we would make is to
make sure that you find a wayto integrate the brand at the point of
peak engagement. And in this case, either you take branding up by three
seconds and not wait for your songto die out and the story to conclude
for you to brand it. Andbranding doesn't need to be a big red
(15:52):
screen. Branding could be subtle.It's a great example. It's a very
clear example. It's still ranked reallyhigh and did well, and so they
might have pat themselves on the backand say we don't need this technology,
but they do need it because it'snot having business outcome exactly right. More
recently, we looked at a Tjmaxcreative which was meant to empower women and
(16:15):
it was like this entire story ofwomen sitting at the bar and taking a
bag and putting on the next seatand saying take space. They thought,
that is the brand of feminism thatis going on in the market. But
guess what women don't want that theyknow that it is obnoxious to do that,
and when we actually again put thatcreative through our technology, we're seeing
(16:36):
constant withdrawal response as women are reactingto this creative that is actually supposed to
appeal to women. So you know, this is a creative that is not
just not helping the brand, it'sactually hurting the brand because it's creating the
exact opposite associations that we'd want withthe brand. How does the actual technology
like function? Like? How doesit work in this world where businesses trade
(17:00):
trillions of dollars every year on inventingnew products, coming out with strategies,
ideas, and then marketing and advertising. All of these things are based on
what we call self reported data,what people say, whether it's on a
survey or it's on a focus group, and at best, any of these
things correlate to actual people's behavior ata twenty four percent level, which means
(17:26):
only a quarter of the time doyou actually get the right answer. We
ourselves don't know what actually truly drivesour decision making. So neuromarketing is our
way of being able to use neuroscience, this technology where we stick electrodes on
your heads and look at the electricalactivity in different parts of your brain to
(17:47):
be able to see your subconscious reactionto things, not rely on what you
say, but we actually be ableto see what is truly resonating with you
at a deep level and what you'relikely to react to as you're beginning to
make decisions. So let's say wedid some work for Spotify, right.
Essentially, Spotify wants to figure outhow people respond to the variety of the
(18:10):
genres that are on Spotify, butalso the variety of ads that show up
on Spotify, and how people receiveany kind of advertising within the platform.
At that point, we'd essentially getthe brief from Spotify like, this is
our target audience for this genre.Let's say you know, one's rap and
the other one's pop. So we'dgo out and recruit that target audience.
(18:34):
They'd essentially come to our facility inlike groups of eight or ten. They'd
log into their phones and they'd begoing to the Spotify experience as they usually
do, and they wear these headcapsthat have different kinds of electrodes that are
looking at the speed of the electricalactivity in different parts of the brain,
and after they're done, would likesay a thirty minute session, they leave,
(18:57):
and we can do that over andover again for a variety of people.
Once we hit the minimal sample size, which for a group of people
needs to be between fifty and sixty, we pull in all of this data
and then we're able to see howpeople responded in a statistically significant way to
the variety of things that we testit. And just to conclude the Spotify
(19:18):
example, one of the things thatwe were able to look at was that
the way advertising interacts with content isa particularly nuanced thing, and if you
actually understand that science, you're ableto make sure your ad is able to
impact a lot more in a certainsituation. So, for example, in
Wrap, your brain is in thezone of actually listening to the lyrics and
(19:41):
be on with the rhyme and gowith the meter, and you're paying a
lot of attention to the detail ofwhat is said. But in Pop I
have Katy Perry singing about like arather big picture thing or a breakup.
It's more, as we call inscientific terms, more global rather than more
detail oriented. And in that advertisingaround big picture ideas or storylines around big
(20:04):
picture ideas about that product may resonatein a much more deeper fashion. So
you know, that was the workwith Spotify, and that's how we do
it. By bringing people to afacility, sticking electrodes and just observing how
their brains react without any instruction orquestioning. It seems so rational and helpful.
Are you surprised when brands don't getit? And are there still those
(20:27):
cases? Yes? See, Isay it with all humility because of the
work of Richard. I don't thinkthere has been a room that we've walked
into in the past where people haven'tbeen blown away or fascinated by the work
that we can produce, whether ornot they sign a check to actually do
this work as a whole different story, and you begin to actually see how
(20:51):
businesses work, how budgets are allotted, who is given what power to make
what decision. I always would liketo sell more so I would always say
it's a harder thing to sell thanit needs to be. That said,
I think the work is to applyour own learning of subconscious human understanding to
our business and understand what would drivepeople to actually do more of this.
I feel like what you guys haveand where the market is is really colliding
(21:18):
in a really interesting way today.Do you have any role models that helped
you guide you, both personally orprofessionally. I do. My friend,
philosopher and guide is this gentleman namedJohn Zwig who's had a remarkable career in
advertising himself, but outside of it, you know, is a war veteran,
(21:41):
is a phenomenal jazz guitar player who'splayed with Facts Sinatra, and I
just look at him and just inamazement because the experience that he has in
life and the things that he getsto share with me give me a lot
of belief in life and our abilityto to flow with it. So he's
(22:02):
someone who you know, I considervery close and someone who's really helped me
become who I've become. But thereare a couple of poets who really inspire
me. I may not have metthem, but you know fifteenth century Indian
poet by the name of Kabir,who I think is the best poet I've
read of all times, because hesummarizes life life in these couplets. These
(22:26):
two liners were just insane wisdom.And in the present day there's another poet
by the name of Javi Dakta who'sagain just this remarkable philosophical, deep character
who analyzes life for what it is. So these are people who inspire me.
Do you have a favorite quote ormantra that helps you get through things?
Yes, there are plenty, butI'll give you one. It's it's
(22:48):
a Sanskrit word. It's called ahambrahmas me, and essentially it means that,
loosely translated, that I'm one withthe universe, and I say that
for it to not be interpreted aslike it also could mean that I'm divine.
But the context is that you know, while in the West, the
world is looked at from the lengthsof that life is finite and time is
(23:12):
linear, and that at the endof your life there's a balance sheet and
net profit you go to heaven,net loss you go to hell, and
that relationship between you and divinity isthat of like master and server. But
the Eastern mindset is that life isin finite, time is cyclical because there
(23:32):
is no end to this, thereis no balance sheet, and the relationship
between you and divinity is that youare divinity and it is on you to
actually find your path to finding themagical powers that you may possess. So
the work starts within so I haveto remind myself of the greater purpose that
we are all one and one withthe universe, and we've got to think
(23:56):
like that to be able to achievewhat we want to achieve. Where do
you feel like you're the most creativeor the most productive? That place is
happens during a certain time in theday, between the hours of midnight and
two am. After I've been listeningto a particular kind of sufi music for
a couple hours, and I feellike I can find that zone no matter
(24:18):
where I am in the world.I just need the space to be able
to dig deep enough to understand,you know, the deep poetic things that
I'm listening to, and it putsme in that zone where I feel like
I can solve any problems. Doyou have something that you feel like you
know, I'm gonna do this thingone point in my life. At this
point in twenty twenty three, wehave more billionaires and more money than there's
(24:41):
ever existed on this planet, andyet we have a billion people who sleep
hungry every night, and I justI find it very difficult to live with
that contradiction. You know, oneof the things I want to be able
to achieve is raise the awareness forthe idea that you know, we are
deeper beings than that, and asa society and as a community, we
(25:04):
need to be doing things that essentiallymove the entire human project forward rather than
solving for individual needs. And Ihave fully participated, by the way in
the in the idea of you know, wealth creation. But yeah, I
feel that I find that part ofme calling me all the time. And
(25:26):
my outstanding goal is to just raiseawareness for the idea that, guys,
there may be something more than whatwe've been pursuing. I love that last
question. Describe your business style inone word, magic magic Damn all right,
I like that. All right,Thanks, this was great another episode
(25:47):
of Soul and Science in the books. We appreciate you being on. I
can't wait to see what you donext. Thanks, thank you, Jess.
Thanks so much for listening to Souland Science ants and we'll see you
next week. Soul and Science isa mechanism podcast produced by Maggie Bowls,
Ryan Tillotson, Tyler Nielsen, EmmaSwanson, and Lily Jablonsky. The show
(26:11):
is edited by Daniel Ferrara, withtheme music by Kyle Merritt. And I'm
your host, Jason Harris
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