March 19, 2025 • 62 mins
What happens when a 16-year-old girl makes the hardest decision of her life, then spends decades wondering about the outcome? Reverend Debbie McDonnell, sister to podcast hosts Dona and Diana, opens her heart to share a profoundly moving adoption story that spans 44 years.
Debbie takes us through her unexpected teenage pregnancy in 1976 and the spiritual experience that guided her choice to place her son for adoption. With remarkable candor, she describes her conviction that she had "made an agreement with this soul" to bring him into the world, even if she couldn't be the one to raise him. This early surrender became the foundation for her life philosophy and spiritual practice.
The conversation weaves through the challenging realities of adoption in the 1970s – from being removed from school during her pregnancy to the emotional isolation of giving birth on Mother's Day while family celebrated nearby. Debbie shares the heartbreaking moment she chose not to see her baby, knowing she couldn't bear to hold him and then let go. Yet this painful chapter eventually transforms into a story of healing and connection when, during the COVID pandemic of 2020, Debbie and her son Larry finally reconnect through DNA testing.
What unfolds is a beautiful testament to the healing power of openness and surrender. As Debbie meets not only her son but his wife and daughter, she discovers the joy of seeing family resemblances, shared traits, and the confirmation that Larry had a wonderful life with his adoptive family. The sisters reflect on how this experience influenced their own lives – particularly Dona's journey to become an adoptive mother herself.
Whether you've been touched by adoption or simply need inspiration for navigating life's difficult crossroads, this episode offers wisdom on finding hope through surrender and transforming pain into purpose. As Debbie says, "Surrender isn't giving up – it's letting go and allowing your best life to emerge."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Soul Sisteries.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to Soul Sisteries.
We just had probably one of myfavorite conversations with one
of our other sisters, DebbieMcDonald.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I mean, come on, that was just glorious.
I mean, come on, that was justglorious.
And we continue to have theseeasy conversations.
But the grace and the opennesswith which she shares her story
and you know, the adoption story, which is so close to my heart
and is something that weexperienced from the perimeter
(00:40):
with her, but to go in with such, like I said, grace and beauty,
just man, I love that girl.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, and for me, any time I get to spend with my
sisters is, you know, a blessing.
Here we are at Soul Sisteries,and welcoming one more into this
journey with us has just beenincredible.
I can't wait for everybody tolisten in and hear what she has
to share.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Sister, time is good time.
Enjoy everyone.
We're so glad to be here todaytalking to the wonderful Debbie
McDonald, who just happens to beanother of the sisters.
(01:25):
We have quite a few sisters.
Here's a third for everyone toget to know.
She's obviously been a part ofour lives always.
She's our older sister, sowe've both lived our lives
always with our beautiful Debbiehere with us, and there's so
many wonderful parts to herstory that she's going to focus
(01:48):
on one particular area todaywith us, and so we're so
grateful for that.
Just so everybody knows, debbieis Reverend Debbie.
She's a minister at a spiritualcenter and she's also had a
diverse career path that hasincluded life in Hollywood and
has included interior design andart in so many different forms
(02:12):
and counseling and all sorts ofwonderful paths.
But welcome, welcome, sisterDebbie.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
It's good to be here, how fun it is.
You know this soul sistery andwe certainly have a lot of
stories over well, my 64 years.
You two came in a little bitlater, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Collectively, we have some years under our belt.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We do, and I was sharing with you both recently
that it was 20 plus years ago,23 years ago, that we were
chatting on our weekly calls andtalking about what does the
future hold and what are wedoing together.
And this is kind of cool to seeus right here and actually see
(03:02):
us not just on calls, becausenow we have zoom also.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
So very, that's true back then.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
No zoom and people that's right, we were doing the
dial-in conference call,remember, yeah yeah, people
listening right now are probablygoing.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I can't tell any of you apart, because this is what
diane and I keep hearing youguys sound so much alike, and
obviously I know that your voicesounds a lot like our voices
too.
So here we are, three littlebirds with a similar tune, but
we want to talk to you aboutyour tune and your path, and
when we asked you to come on ourpodcast with us, there were so
(03:42):
many different areas that wecould have talked about, and you
are certainly somebody we bothadmire and love so much and are
just so grateful for havingwalked this path with you.
But one of the stories, one ofthe parts of your story that
resonates, I know for me a greatdeal and I feel so grateful to
(04:03):
have followed the path, is your,your adoption journey, your
your journey of making anadoption plan and all that has
unfolded, and I'd love to focuson that today.
So that's where we're starting,okay, yeah.
So I guess maybe we'll leave itto you, sis, to just kind of
(04:28):
share what you want of the storythat gets us to where we are
today and also, let's just saywe want to say your word too,
because we asked you to come upwith your hope through and share
that with us, if you would.
What is your hope through?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
because it's well, yeah, I, you know, um, when you
all were talking about launchingthis podcast and doing the hope
through and the different words, of course I thought, well,
what would my word be?
What would I?
What would I be talking about?
You know, and and um, because abig part of my life is in
(05:05):
recovery.
I stopped drinking and using 37years ago, which is crazy.
So I always thought, well, hopethrough addiction, that would
be a thing you know.
But then when you asked me tospeak about the adoption and all
of that and the releasing of myson for adoption, you know,
(05:27):
when I was just 16 years old,you know, and I had to think
about that and go like what wasthat about and what would that
hope have been?
And it didn't really feel likea very hopeful time to me, you
know.
It felt like a really reallysad time.
And then I realized that thereally the process and really
for many things in my life hasbeen hope through surrender,
(05:48):
like that final surrender ofletting go, you know, and
literally and figuratively, andthat that that is where the hope
was birthed for me.
So I think that hopefully thatmakes sense to people.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
You know it's gorgeous.
I think that, hopefully, thatmakes sense to people.
You know it's gorgeous.
I mean it's you know what.
I think, though, that there areprobably a number of people who
don't really know what it isthat you mean when you say that
Hope through surrender, becausethat can just like hope through
giving up, hope through throwingin the towel, hope through and
that's not at all what you'retalking about.
So you want to talk a littlebit more about what that means
(06:26):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Because, yes, it is a different kind of a surrender
and it's different than thesurrender that I think a lot of
us grew up with knowing andunderstanding.
Like you know, never give upand never say, uncle, and don't
you know surrender?
We're not talking aboutsurrendering and being a doormat
, or surrendering and justgiving up all hope.
(06:49):
No, it's that irony of you know, in the 12-step community they
talk about surrender.
Power is, you know, a powerthat is greater than us, that
knows all, and we can just allowourselves to feel safe in that
(07:18):
place.
And it takes time to do thatand it's not always done
consciously.
And oh, yes, I, I'm gonnasurrender and the universe will
take care of me.
You know, it's like, yeah, wemay take many, many steps before
we get to.
oh my gosh, I just can't do itanymore and I'm gonna let go and
(07:38):
allow the universe to workthrough me and know it'll be
good you know, know, and themore that we practice that and
we get the results that areamazing and good and the more we
can trust in, the more that wecan do that kind of surrender.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, maybe it's kind of what a lot of people today
talk about with like mindfulnesspractices, right, not not
fighting the waves, just layingand letting the weight and it
take you and move with them,instead of always fighting
against them.
Right, right.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, and that was, you know, when I look at the
whole process of adoption and itcertainly was a process for me,
again, you know, I was very,very young, you know, and I
didn't realize really at thetime of how young I was.
You know, I was very, very young, you know, and I didn't realize
really at the time of how youngI was, you know, but the
(08:30):
surrender came through, what wasreally one of my first
spiritual experiences, and I Ididn't know that that was what
it was at the time, but Iremember, you know, being
pregnant and of course, I was soyoung that I really didn't even
(08:50):
acknowledge the fact that Imight be pregnant.
You know, I was just in absolutedenial about that.
And it wasn't until four orfive months into my pregnancy
that I thought, well, I bettergo and find out if I really am
pregnant.
And, um, you know, you guysgrew up in the same home.
(09:11):
I did.
It was a little bitdysfunctional, to say the least.
And so I found my way to, uh, aPlanned Parenthood, you know,
and I got a pregnancy test and Ifound out that I was pregnant,
you know.
And and in the crazy part ofthat is, you know, it wasn't
(09:32):
suspected by anybody, you know,by my parents anyway, or our
parents.
And so when I finally went totalk to mom and tell her, and
then my experience of having totell dad, I mean all of that was
just horrendously awful, youknow, and um, and then I had to
make a decision, you know, aboutwhat was I going to do.
(09:54):
And this is where spiritualexperiences comes in, and I
haven't told this to larry yetand larry is my son who, um, I
had I was 16, almost 17.
And in 2020, my gift of COVIDwas that the year that I got to
meet him and start arelationship with him.
So that's amazing.
(10:16):
But at the time I got reallyquiet and I did spend a lot of
time with just myself duringthat time, because I couldn't go
to school, I was home alone andI always had this connection
with some kind of spiritualthing, and somewhere it got
(10:38):
really clear to me that I hadmade an agreement with this soul
to bring it forth into theworld, whether I was the person
that was going to be his motheror not and raise him.
And now I had no idea.
I mean, I've learned so muchsince then, but at that point it
was really, really clear thatwe had made this deal.
(11:01):
You know, and that was my firstsurrender to okay.
You know, that was theagreement, as weird as it seems
I mean, it seems weird to evensay it now but it was very, very
clear to me that that was thedeal and so I did make the
(11:24):
choice and there's a whole bunchof weird synchronistic things
that happened how he ended upwith, the family that he ended
up with and all of that.
But it was the letting go andallowing that to be and trusting
it.
Oh, there's so many littlethings that happened.
You know, I don't know if yougirls remember, but I didn't
(11:49):
fully and I hope this isn't toomuch information for your
listeners, but I didn't fullyexpel the placenta and I think
that was.
You know, it's like a symbolicof holding on, like I wasn't
really releasing it.
And I came home and I gotreally sick and I had to go back
to the hospital.
I don't know if you girlsremember that, yeah, and mom was
(12:11):
all like, well, this has neverhappened to me, I've had five
children and why did this happen?
And you know, and it was justreally interesting and and I
remember being in the hospitaland there was this one nurse who
was just so sweet and and backin then I guess it was 1976,
they did it.
It was very different thanbirthing a child now.
It was very much the way thatprobably mom had to do it and
(12:34):
the women before, where theyjust kept you laid down,
strapped in.
You couldn't get up and walkaround.
It wasn't natural by any meanswhatsoever.
It was a long, long, long, longbirth, which is so weird
because Sean and Brianna, my twochildren that I had later in
life, were like speedy birds.
Like you know, four hours startto finish, but Larry was long.
(12:55):
It was long and uh, and did wesay he was born on mother's day?
That's kind of an interestingthing.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
There was a family gathering celebrating Mother's
Day at our home.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
And mom came, you know, and she stayed with me
that whole time and it wasfinally when the doctors, after
many hours of labor, they saidwe're going to have to do a
cesarean if you don't, you know,start having some movement.
And then it was there.
So I mean now in retrospect,and after many years of therapy
and body work and all kinds ofthings, you know, I realized
that there was this holding on,even in the letting go and
(13:30):
physically holding on andpsychologically holding on.
But there was this one nurseand that's what I started to say
that she came to me becausethey put me on a surgery floor.
They didn't put me on thematernity floor because they
thought, I think, that that wasbeing nice, so I wouldn't be
with all the other mothers andbabies.
And then, when Larry was born, Isaw him for just a second and
(13:52):
they took him to the nursery andthere was this one nurse who
kept encouraging me go go seehim, go see him, go see him, you
know.
And and everybody else justpretended like I hadn't had a
baby, I just there.
It was very, very weird and, uh, I, um, I couldn't go.
I couldn't go see him because Iknew if I held him, there was
(14:16):
no way I would be able torelease him, you know, and I um,
over the years, I wondered ifthat was the right thing or the
wrong thing, or the good thingor the bad thing, you know, but
it just wasn't what it was, youknow.
And then life changed a wholebunch after that, yeah, you know
(14:48):
, and then coming full circlewith having a sister who then
adopted a little boy, and I gotto see both, it was just, it's
just been this crazy part of mylife, you know.
And then, of course, nowmeeting him and knowing him and
all of that.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So anyway, and it's the way it's supposed to be
right, because it is what theuniverse unfolded for you.
But listening to you tell thestory that I hadn't ever heard
before about when you made thedecision of what you were going
to do, it reminded me of a bookthat you turned me on to many
years later, after you know myown kind of spiritual journey,
(15:24):
but that Neil Donald Walsh book,the, the children's book, you
know, the little soil where youknow they make kind of this,
packed together to this, is thejourney we're going to go on,
and that's very cool because itwas.
You know, I don't know who wasspeaking to you, right?
(15:44):
Was it the little soul speakingto you?
Was it spirit?
You know, I don't know who wasspeaking to you, right?
Was it the little soul speakingto you?
Was it spirit speaking to you?
Who knows?
But something came to you.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Well, your journey had aprofound effect on me.
I can tell you a little.
You know, middle child rolethat I had was to observe, be
hyper observant and vigilant ofeveryone and everything right.
So I was very aware of you atthis time in your energy, and I
(16:14):
can tell you my experience ofyour energy and your presence
through all of this was that youwere incredibly mature, mature
and you were incredibly groundedand in this it felt like you
were in this separate space ofcreativity and I don't mean that
(16:40):
in a silly way you werecreating a child, I don't mean
that you were just in a creativespace and you were in this
space of growth and it was.
It was like palpable, it wasjust.
It was really palpable andcalming for me to feel.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Now I know you had your own experience internally,
but that's what you wereradiating always through.
That, I mean, I know it reallywasn't out in the open because,
(17:23):
you know, Diana, my baby sisterdidn't even know I was pregnant
till the day I went to thehospital, and that's like when
you talk about the family system, that's just cuckoo.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
But, anyway, maybe that's one reason why we're so
adamant to be out here talking,talking, talking.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
And we're going to share stories because you know
there's a whole lot of you don'tspeak, and certainly why I
probably, you know chose thefield I did, going into, you
know, family therapy for sure.
But also, I guess I just want tosecond what you said, donna,
because I was young, I was eight, and I didn't know what was
(18:03):
going on, but my recollection ofyou was that you were very
nurturing, that you were verymuch of a caretaker for me.
I mean, I remember you spendingone-on-one time with me.
I remember you taking me out toMarie Callender's for pie,
which is still one of the most,you know, memorable moments in
(18:25):
my life, to remember my sisterwho, at 16 years old, was, you
know, taking me out.
That's cool.
I remember the dress you madefor me during that time that I
wish I still owned.
So I think you were, I think,emotionally, you were nurturing
(18:47):
and taking care of little Larryinside of you, even though you
knew this was a gift forsomebody else, that he wasn't
yours to keep.
But I think you did all ofthese very nurturing, caretaking
things during that time.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So very beautiful, very beautiful, amazingly
profound and at the same timeI'm very aware and you know,
think back, my God.
You were just a kid.
You were totally a kid and akid without a lot of information
or resources, and yet you foundthis yourself through your own
(19:28):
surrender and listening to yourinner guidance, I would assume,
because you were reallyself-directed too, because I
know you had a lot of otherinformation coming at you about
the shoulds and the choices andyou made your own way and there
(19:51):
was, just say, there was a wholelot having.
You know, we all went to thesame Catholic girls school,
which there were a lot of greatthings about that school for us
in various ways, lot of greatthings about that school for us
in various ways.
But you know you weren't,wasn't that you couldn't go to
think they wouldn't allow you inthis school, to continue your
education there at this time,while you were pregnant, like
(20:13):
what a what a thing?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
But you know what they did do, and there were some
good things, you know.
Now I was went to an all girlparochial school Catholic school
and in my class I was not alonein being pregnant, which is
very interesting.
There was two other girls whowere pregnant at the same time
as me and we were all you know.
It was our junior year and wewere asked not to come to class,
(20:39):
you know, during that time.
But they did let us come forour ring ceremony.
Do you remember getting in yourring?
And they let us come for ourring ceremony.
Do you remember getting in yourroom?
And they let us come for ourclass rings.
And the students had petitionedand asked if we could come and
they did allow us to do that,which is interesting, you know,
I remember the dress I wore,that it didn't going there, you
know.
And then I remember now I justgot to put this in because when
(21:04):
I went back to school, uh, theprincipal called me in the
office and she asked me what itwas that they could do to help
other girls so they wouldn't bein this situation.
And I said well, you know whatwe should teach about birth
control?
Yes, and the guy was likeflabbergasted like there's no
way we're doing that and I goall right.
(21:25):
Well, you asked.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I mean.
Well, three girls out of aclass of what was it like 100
girls are pregnant.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
This tells us that maybe you know what's funny.
I mean clearly differentexperiences, right.
But here I am.
What, eight years after you andat the same school but
certainly you know, Donna, youshared your middle child kind of
reaction.
Mine at the youngest was likeI'm just going to ask questions
(21:52):
and I'm not going to let thingsjust go by.
If I want to know, I'm going toask, and if somebody asks me,
I'm going to tell so don't askif you don't want to know, sort
of thing.
But I remember then me being inhigh school, eight years later
at the same school, and thenhaving a debate about pro-life,
(22:13):
pro-choice, but come to find outit was only pro-life.
They let us ask questions and Isaid don't you think that if
we're having a debate we shouldhear the other side, Because
wouldn't that be helpful for us?
We never got that other side,but I think maybe somewhere
along the way I had heard thatstory of you saying that to the
(22:35):
nun or the principal and justsaying, like how about we tell
us girls what we need to know inthe 80s, Right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, and except the fact that we're sexual beings
and all of this kind of stuff.
But that's a.
That's a whole other discussion, right.
Yeah yeah, the normalcy of whowe are, I mean.
So what a profound experience.
And so I'm the one out of thesisters who then became an
adoptive mother who was able tohave my second son through this
(23:10):
beautiful gift of adoption, andknowing you and your story was,
of course, enormously helpful tome on that path, and I was
immediately aware that thisadoption story is this gorgeous
triangle of mother, mother andchild, and that this gift that I
(23:33):
received from my son's birthmother is like just the most
profound gift of mother loveimaginable gift of mother love
imaginable that her choice wasfor his greatest good.
I give you my boy to love andto be his mother, because I love
(23:54):
him so much and I want what'sbest for him.
I just I'm blown away by thatact, and his birth mother was 14
when she made that choice, andI think of you and she and this
gorgeous, selfless, beautifulact of love for your sons, for
(24:31):
your sons it's it bowls me overthat that you could find that in
you and live that, just sayingthat out loud.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah, you know, there's a lot that I've learned,
of course, over the years, andI guess everything that happens
in our lives is for us tosomehow to learn and grow.
And I remember, years ago,being in therapy and I don't
remember which therapist it wasat the time because I've had
different ones but I rememberthem saying to me now you get
(24:59):
that you didn't really have achoice, right?
And I'm like well, what do youmean?
No, I had a choice.
And she's like OK, you were 16years old.
Your father said if you chose tokeep the baby, you would not be
allowed to live there, youwould have to move out, you
would have to go on welfare, youwould have to, you know, find a
way to do this all on your own,that there would be no family
(25:20):
support.
And she's like now, that's notreally a choice.
You know when you're, you know,16 years old, but I didn't
realize that at the time.
You know, I didn't realize thatat the time because that was my
initial response is that Iwanted to keep my baby and raise
my baby, you know, and ofcourse, the father wasn't
(25:42):
interested in any of that at thetime, and so it's just these
things that I learned, and it'sit's like somehow I was carried
through all of that, you know,because I certainly didn't know
how to do it, but there wassomething that was guiding me
and and moving me through that,you know.
(26:03):
And now I'd like to say, andmoving me through that, you know
.
And now I'd like to say, oh,and then I had Larry, and
everything was hunky-dory andpeachy-keying, but then it's
like, then the wheels fell offfor me, you know, after that,
and I really went down a deephole, you know, until years
later, when I, you know, wasable to find some kind of
(26:24):
emotional, spiritual, you knowrecovery.
But yeah, so life isinteresting, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Isn't it Jess?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
And our life's interesting, which I think is
like one of the catalysts foryou all.
Starting this, you know, is outof tragedy and heartache and,
you know, all these other thingsthat happen in life.
There is hope, yeah thatthere's hope, like the little
green bud starts to growsomewhere you know and new life
(26:55):
starts.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, you can share with us.
Then you know I have my ownideas, but it's like oh, how
much of what I know and believeis real, or is it stuff I made
up?
So?
76, you give birth to Larry.
2020, COVID, you guys meet asadults for the first time.
(27:18):
What do you want to share withus about what took place in
those 44 years to get you tothat place of ready to meet,
ready to reopen a door?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
You know, one of the things that I would want to say
is this is interesting because,again, it's life and how it
shows up and the synchronicitiesyou know, and I had always made
the decision that I would notreach out to him, that I would
wait for him to reach out to meif he wanted to meet me, because
(27:56):
I didn't want to disrupt hislife.
You know, if he'd created thislife and now I had, you know, I
had been married and my husbandknew well before we got married
that I had had Larry and mychildren, I told when they were
a little bit older and then so Iwas never a secret.
You know, it wasn't somethingthat was a secret.
(28:17):
But what happened when allthese hereditary things came
about that you can go online,right, but what happened when
all these hereditary things cameabout that you can go online,
right?
Our niece discovered that shehad a cousin, that she didn't
know who the cousin was.
So she asked her father and hecalled me and although it was
never really a secret, I guessthey did not know that.
So again, I thought well, I'mgoing to wait for him to reach
(28:39):
out, I'm not going to reach out.
I'm going to wait for him toreach out, I'm not going to
reach out, I'm going to wait forhim to reach out.
And then and then I was at adinner that was for something
totally unrelated and this youngman walked in and he was really
kind of contemplative and quietand he sat across from me and
I'd never met him before, Ihaven't seen him since and I was
(29:01):
started to talk.
Talk to him and he said he hadjust received that day the
letter in the mail of who hisbirth parents were and the state
that he had born in was born in, I think, philadelphia or
pennsylvania or something hadjust allowed you to find out who
that was.
So we and he didn't know what hewas going to do because he did
(29:21):
not want to disrupt his birthmother's life.
He wasn't sure and I thoughtwell, isn't that interesting.
I wonder if larry feels thesame way and like we're both
sitting here thinking, well,we're not going to reach out
because we don't know if we wantto interrupt the other person's
life, right, so it just wascoming up on his birthday.
(29:45):
Um, some other family membershad tried to do.
Ask them not to you know betweenthe lines, everyone my niece to
please not reach out, to lethim reach out, you know.
And then I was laying in bed,like I said, it was a day or two
(30:08):
before his birthday, which isMay 8th, and I thought what the
heck I'm just going to send aletter through this?
Oh, because by then I had donethe hereditary thing and it came
up right away, you know, yourson.
And so I sent him an emailthrough the app and, uh, I
thought whatever's gonna be iswhat's gonna be, you know, like
(30:30):
another surrender, right, likewhatever here we go and you know
, the next day he emailed rightback.
We talked the next day.
Uh, it was funny, we didn'tcall.
I sent him my phone number andhe didn't call on his birthday.
But he called the day betweenhis birthday and mother's day
Cause he thought it might be toomuch to call on mother's day
(30:51):
for the first time.
So we talked on the phone andof course it was COVID.
So it took a little while forus to get together.
You know, and, and you know,what you want to know more than
anything, I think, if you havereleased a child for adoption,
(31:16):
is that they're happy and thatthey're healthy and that they
had a good life and that they'reOK.
And, gosh, it was so good tosee that he was all those things
.
He was happy he had gone to SC,which for us we know know we
have many, many family memberswho've gone to usc.
Uh, he had um interest inthings that were part of our
family.
Yeah, his daughter, who had mygranddaughter she has it's
(31:39):
really.
It's that nurture versus an age.
It's just this really trip.
You know, one of the firstthings he said to me, one of the
first times I talked to him,was he thanked me for birthing
him, you know, and his wife isamazing and it's just a fabulous
(32:04):
thing.
It's a fabulous thing to knowthat he's had this great life
and his family.
He has another brother who hisparents adopted and so he has
the experience of, like he said,when he was a little boy he
thought that's just what you did.
You went and picked out yourbrother, you know.
So, yeah, really good, you knowhe always knew he was adopted,
(32:28):
you know.
So, yeah, really good, you knowhe always knew he was adopted.
You know, and it's not thequestion you asked me, I don't
know, but it was just.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
It just turned out to be really a beautiful,
wonderful, full circle, amazingthing for me comes into your,
not only he and his wife, but hehas a daughter, who you have
this lovely additional.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Yes, who you girls can spend more time with.
Since she's gone to college onthe East Coast, she's got to
spend time with her aunties.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
We just adore her.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
She is my only niece that's been at my house yet.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, been at my house yet?
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It is something.
There is something soincredible about that nature
versus nurture thing there.
You know, we each have withinus these things that are
uniquely ours and we have thosethings that are part of the DNA
and we have those things thatare part of the family and, and
so, you know, being the motherof a child through adoption he
(33:25):
is, he is wholly my kid, and Ihave birthed a child also, and I
, you know, raising two sons.
They both my boys and the.
The most significant differenceis there's there's certain
features and certain aspectsthat you can't say, oh, like
that's grandpa's nose and that'swhat you know.
Don't have that with my secondson, but in some, you know, he
(33:49):
and I have such commonalities ashe does with my husband, his
dad, but yet I also, because Iknow many things about his birth
mother, who made choices not toremain in our story and for
today.
We'll see what the future holds.
But we have a lot ofinformation and there are many
(34:11):
things that he has in commonwith her, and one is his
incredibly gorgeous singingvoice and his musicality, which
he gets from her.
That was one of her greatestjoys in life was singing, yes,
and he also has a birthmark,like in the exact same spot that
she has a birthmark and I justlove that.
He is hers also and he's mineand he's his.
(34:35):
He's his own and all of this istrue.
Anyway, I just took one on alittle side story, but you know.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
But that's interesting because, you know, I
haven't met um larry's uh momand dad and um, I really feel
that they're his mom and dad youknow, they're.
They're people that raised himand they're the people that um
loved him and they're the peoplethat took care of him and, uh,
and I feel like I had theprivilege of birthing him.
(35:03):
You know, and you know, I'mnever quite sure exactly what to
call him.
Like you know, you say my birthmother, but do you say my birth
son?
Do you say I don't know?
You know, but you know, he'sjust a beautiful man and I'm
(35:24):
glad he's on the planet.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yes, and you brought him onto the planet.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I had a part in that yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah for sure.
What was that like?
Tell us, that moment when yougot to meet him, see him again
for the first time in 44 years,face to face, and look in his
face and just Because it was onvideo first.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Right, you met on video because it was during
COVID.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
No we talked on the phone, gosh.
I don't think we did video, Ithink we talked just.
I went up to where he lived andhim and I got to sit and spend
time together.
His wife and daughter were inanother part of the house and
they just allowed us to be thetwo of us.
(36:14):
Then they came in later and Igot to meet them, but it was
very exciting.
It was very exciting to see him, to meet him.
I saw right away a familyresemblance.
You know we're Italian and helooks like the whole Italian
side of our family you know, tome, oh yeah, we can all see it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
We're like oh yeah, yeah, and I see it in his
daughter as well.
I'm like right, right,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
My niece Yep, absolutely.
But what was the thing thatreally struck me the most was I
feel like I knew him forever.
Yeah, I just felt like I knewhim.
That was just yeah, you know, Ididn't maybe know all the
things that he had done orhappened in his life, but I just
felt just like, yeah, like Iknew him, you know.
And that's so to me.
(37:06):
There was no awkwardness orweirdness or you know, we just
started chatting away and we cantalk easily.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
It feels like to me when we talk and um, and I think
all of us I mean totallydifferent stories for all of us,
right?
I was just a little girl whenhe was born, so he's we're all
the eight years apart, but Iknow my experience of you know,
every Mother's Day at least,thinking about him and where is
(37:36):
he?
And hoping that someday wecould meet and I could meet.
And I know, before I lost mypartner, in 2020, our niece had
already done the DNA and alreadyhad that connection.
So I remember us talking aboutwhat that's going to be like and
we're going to finally meetthis kid who's not a kid because
(37:57):
he's my peer, but what is thatgoing to be like?
And that you know?
Are we going to have this otherperson in our family?
Is this going to be part of ourfamily?
Or are they going to be kind of, oh, there he is and he wants
nothing to do with us and we'vebeen waiting for 40 plus years
to get to meet him.
Has he been waiting for us also?
You know just yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Can you say, sis, that part of the reason that all
of this is as successful as itis is that there's tremendous
openness from all parties?
I guess what I'm asking isthere are a great many people
who you know reconnect withbirth parents and who do not
(38:41):
have this type of experience.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
You know, I don't know.
I think about that like howfortunate I am that it has been
like really storybook for me,like the way that if I would
dream that I would have wantedit to be that it has been.
And I know that that's not truefor everybody and I know it
(39:04):
could have gone on a lot ofdifferent ways and it's just, I
really don't know, I don't knowwhy.
It is just and and yes, I'venever sensed from larry or his
family any sort of um,resistance and I certainly
haven't felt any kind ofresistance.
(39:24):
And I think our entire family,my extended family, all has that
openness to, you know, alwaysconsider my no, you know, mom
always considered Larry.
You know her first grandchild,you know, and it was really
important for her to know himand she got much more vocal
(39:46):
about that as she got older.
She just knew she had a greatgrandchild and she was, you know
, but I think there was thatopenness to um, yeah, I know
that there was a part of ourfamily that was out there, at
least biologically.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
You know, part of our family that was out there and
so, yeah, biologically you knowpart of her family that was out
there and so, yeah, it's been.
Yeah, I don't know.
So I'm going to get us to ourquestions, because I know we
don't want to keep y'all all daylong.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
So if you're, going to the questions, could I ask
one more part of the journey,just to see just real quick?
What do you do if she says nojourney, just to see just real
quick?
Uh, well, I don't know.
What do you do if she says, no,let's keep talking, no, okay,
so I just want it, because Iknow that your journey and I you
don't have to share about it.
It's whatever you choose, but Iknow, along your journey to
(40:36):
then becoming a mother to yourtwo children whom you raised,
that was a that was a roughjourney.
That they're, yeah, that thatwas a rough journey.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
So what we know now and those are, you know, I think
it's more common that you'vegot the somatic, you know,
emotional, somatic parts of ourbody right and that when I
decided that my husband and Iwanted to have children, I had
two miscarriages and after doingthe work and going and working
(41:12):
with a body worker for a numberof years, really realizing I had
to go back and I had healingwork to do, I had stuff that I
needed to do, had stuff that Ineeded to do, you know, and when
I was able to release that andmove into the next place, I
(41:32):
easily got pregnant and had mylittle monkey and, yeah, and, as
you said, very easy.
Children are very young anymore,32, and you know and nor are
they very little.
These are both very easy birthand easy pregnancy.
But it really was it required,going back and doing the work
you know, going back and doingthe healing and the letting go.
And it was still letting go.
(41:53):
There was still a letting go of, uh, the past, you know, and
that experience and that thetraumatic part of it you know,
yeah, yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Well, you also in that arena doing that work, you
were a way shower for me.
I will say I had a number ofchildhood traumas in my body and
I went to that very same bodyworker and did a lot of healing
and release and a lot ofchallenges on my own path to
motherhood as well.
(42:26):
But you really did.
You were if I've not told youthat before, you should know
that you were an influencer anda way shower for me in my own
journey.
In fact I would go to that.
But I remember I would go andI'd like stay overnight at your
house because she was down downsouth, right she was glorious.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
There was a lot of good work.
Go and I'd like stay overnightat your house because she was
down down south right.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yes, I remember that she was glorious.
There was a lot of good workdone there.
So thank you for that.
And I also followed you intothose 12-step rooms, Also a
different path.
I didn't have the addictions,but I certainly had that
codependency in spades andcertainly fit in those rooms and
there was much healing there.
(43:06):
So thank you, sister, for allof that beautiful guidance and
holding space for my own healingjourney.
Truly, you've been just a huge,huge influence and way shower
in my life and I'm so, sograteful and a big reason why
you are also the godmother of myadopted child, because it's
(43:29):
just a beautiful connectionthere.
Anyway, okay, Okay.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Questions.
Yeah, so, because we arechatting for a little bit.
But the question that I alwayslike the answer to, I always
like to hear what the responseis, is what would?
I guess I'm going to go to 13,.
Right, you had Larry at 16.
So what would your 13 year oldself, looking at your journey,
(43:57):
looking at where you've comefrom, where you're today, at
where you're going, what wouldthat 13-year-old, sweet little
Debbie say about you and to you?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Gosh, I don't know what she would say to me, but I
know what I would want to say toher.
Say that then.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
What would you say to her?
Speaker 3 (44:19):
You know, I would let her know that she is valuable,
that she is significant, thatshe is somebody and that she
deserves to be treated with loveand kindness and respect and
that she doesn't have to giveherself away.
(44:40):
She doesn't have to throwherself away, that it's all
going to be okay.
It's all going to be okay.
You know, I would just love herBecause she was so lost.
She was so lost and alone andreally confused by the world and
(45:02):
everything.
I mean just all of it was justlost and really had nobody to
Ask the questions.
I love that that became yourprocess.
I, like I'm just going to askthe questions.
You know, I was just muddlingthrough the best, that good, and
not doing so well, you know.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
You know, and it's so funny because asking the
questions I not only just askthe questions I like, I think,
purposely put myself in the wayof people that maybe didn't want
to ask questions.
And I'm thinking specificallyof, like high school, marriage
and family class and my fatherand stepmother, and asking them
questions that I already knewanswers to.
(45:44):
But I wanted their answers andit was like, sorry, guys, I've
got this list of 20 questionsand you need to respond, so like
for you to talk to.
I mean that hurts for mebecause again, at 13, I was five
, I guess, when you were 13.
And so I was just the littleone in the family that you know.
(46:05):
I think you and Donna both tooka role in raising me, you know,
especially, mom and dad wereworking and I had more
interaction with you guys thananybody else.
Our oldest sister, not really,I think, she was living her own
life already, probably by thetime I was born, but I think I
just remember so much justcaring and guidance, and so
(46:27):
that's just when I think of youas a little girl, and 16, you're
still a little girl.
I didn't know that then, but Ifeel so lost and alone and
unsure.
But yet make me, but yet makeme.
I'm going to cry.
Make me feel safe and secure,and not alone.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Same same same.
That's huge, that's huge.
And then you found it withinyourself, even in this space, to
make the choices you made forLarry and for his journey, based
on this agreement that youunderstood.
I mean, that's like wow, what aflipping rock star.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
That little girl is truly what an amazing, amazing
powerhouse that, despite all, inspite of all and all that she
went on to do and find anddiscover.
Because that's not just like,oh, it just happened to you.
There are choices along the wayto your own recovery, to your
(47:40):
own, you know life's work, toyour own motherhood journeys.
All of those things, they'reyour choices along the way.
Pretty amazing story, sis,Truly Okay.
More questions, Sissy, when arewe?
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Here's actually a good one, because you know,
donna, you opened this with justsharing what an inspiration
Debbie has been to us, and I'mcurious, I guess two parts when
you were younger, who was yourinspiration, and today, who
(48:21):
inspires you?
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Hmm, inspiration and today who inspires you.
You know, one of my mostinspirational people in my life
as I became an adult was one ofmy mentors and teachers who's
(48:44):
passed on and, um, she's amongsta group of women who truly do
inspire me, in that they speaktheir truth, they walk their
walk.
They're not about.
One of her favorite sayings wasit's not a popularity contest.
(49:07):
And I'd be like what do youmean?
It's not a popularity contest.
You know, like?
And she used to always say her,um, she wanted to get to that
place where she had nothing toprotect and nothing to defend,
and that she would just betransparent, and I'd be like oh
yeah, I want to be able to dothat, you know, and uh huh so.
(49:33):
so she was very inspirational tome and other women that I know
that like her, when I wasyounger.
It's interesting because Idon't think you girls have the
same experience, but I have verylittle memories of being little
.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
And when they ask questions like what did you want
to?
Speaker 1 (49:48):
be when you grow up?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
I'm like oh no, I don't even remember, you know,
and so I don't know who my rolemodels or my people were when I
was little.
Um, I really don't yeah, no,that's okay.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
yeah, yeah, and that speaks volumes to feeling alone
and unsafe.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Well, thank goodness for that tribe, that sisterhood
that did come in to your worldand I know exactly who you were
talking about and I know allthat she means to you and that
group of women.
And she, even before youanswered, she had come to my
mind and I know, I know whoshe's going to my mind, I know
what she's going to talk about,I know what she's going to say
and I know the importance andthat's just sort of that
(50:39):
surrender too right, thesurrender that brings these
beautiful people into your world.
Yeah Well, should we jump intoour rapid?
Speaker 2 (50:52):
fire sis?
Yeah, except for I was thinking.
There's a question that youusually like to ask, and that is
you always say it better than Iwill, but I could try to say it
Go ahead when this long journeyis over.
You know, 40 or 50 years fromnow.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Diana likes longevity .
Speaker 2 (51:16):
So, when this part of your journey is over and you go
back to wherever we go, how doyou want to be remembered by the
people that are still here?
Speaker 3 (51:31):
I would want to be remembered as somebody who loved
them and didn't judge them.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yeah, I think you're good at that, sis.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
I think you've already succeeded on that one,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
Hope I can keep doing it yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
So yeah, donna, I think this is it.
I think this is where we get toour rapid fire, rapid fire.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So yeah, donna, I think this isit.
I think this is where we get toour rapid fire, rapid fire.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Okay, all right, so we just have this list of
questions.
You've listened, you know.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
I have listened and I have thought of a few of these.
I'll just tell you in advance.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
We've recently changed some of them, oh, okay.
There'll be changed some, okay.
Well, the first one is afamiliar one.
What is your walk-in song?
You know, when you're walkingout on that stage or up to the
pitcher's mound, what's?
Speaker 3 (52:25):
your walk-in song.
You know, this is when Ithought about it and I have a
hard time coming up with it,because one of the songs that I
really, really love but I don'tknow what would be your walk-in
song, but it's a country songyeah, everything's Holy Now.
Do you know that song?
I don't.
I play it at my ordination.
It's one of my favorite songsEverything's Holy Now.
(52:48):
Well then, I've heard itbecause I was there, yes.
But then if you think about yourwalk-on song, then it's got to
be like.
You know, I will survive.
You know, at first I was afraid.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yeah, your walk in song could be anything.
You want it to be.
There you go, there, you goyeah.
Speaker 3 (53:06):
I think more upbeat is good, but everything's holy
now is like so perfect.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
I'm going to check that out.
So what book changed you oh?
Speaker 3 (53:21):
gosh the Secret Garden.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
The Secret Garden.
Yeah, it's a beautiful book andit's very layered and rich.
It's a great book.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
I have to.
I know nobody's watching this,they're just listening, but of
course I see a whole wall ofbooks behind you, right?
Speaker 1 (53:42):
And you, and you.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
I used to love as a little girl and you were in high
school and you had thatbookshelf above your bed and I
used to love going and standingon your bed and picking out one
of your books and going andreading it, even if it didn't
make sense to me, I just wantedto read your books.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
A hundred percent Tree Grows in Brooklyn.
That's where I found it.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
Tree Grows in Brooklyn.
I would be one of my secondrunner-ups there, I believe
forever I discovered.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
And then I would go to grandma's house to aunt suzel
bedroom and her bookshelf.
That was my number two favoritebookshelf.
Very cute, yeah, oh.
Next question um, what movielives rent-free in your brain?
Speaker 3 (54:29):
wow you know, I have a movie quote for every single
thing that happens in my life.
My friends have recentlypointed that out to me.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah, we're all Gilmore girls.
We are all Lorelei.
Oh well, I'm muted.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
Gilmore girls but gosh, so many.
Any musical, you know, I don'tknow what, which specific one
you, you know, I always saysound of music is like my
favorite movie, but I don't knowthat I would say that that red
lives rent free.
You know, I mean love actually,you know, yeah you know, yeah,
(55:10):
perfect, fun, okay, what I?
Speaker 2 (55:14):
I know you said you don't remember much about being
a little one, but what did youlove doing as a kid that you
still love doing to this day?
Speaker 3 (55:26):
I love playing make-believe.
I loved playing make-believewhether it was making a store,
making a, the Olympics, thecarnival in the backyard, the
theater, the stage.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
You know being creative and doing make-believe,
you guys, you guys anybodylistening?
You have to just picture thisLike her bedroom she would make
over, with clothes literallytagged to the walls and price
tags and little shopping bags,and the whole like this was a
whole boutique that we wouldthen go in and shop.
(56:05):
Wouldn't that be fun?
Speaker 3 (56:06):
And then Uncle Roy gave me a mannequin.
Remember, I had the mannequinfor a while.
That was crazy.
Speaker 2 (56:14):
You still are very, very creative today.
I mean, yeah, yeah, you stillare very, very creative today.
I mean, the things you do arevery, you know, are driven by
your creativity.
I do like to create.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
I do dream it.
Be it.
There you go.
Well isn't?
Yeah, create, you've got thaton your license also, that's
your thing.
That's your thing, okay.
What in your world is lightingyou up right now?
Speaker 3 (56:37):
Well, you too, you too, for sure, this journey of
yours, and you know thepossibilities.
I'm at a place in my life whereI'm really looking at, you know
, the next 20 years, my thirdact.
I'm calling it like.
What does that look like?
What do I want it to be?
(56:58):
What do I want to do?
So it's again, it's a way ofcreating for me, like I'm going
to create.
One of the things I say in myclasses and when I speak is this
new thing and I didn't createit.
It came from someone else.
But are you living by design ordefault?
From someone else?
(57:18):
But are you living by design ordefault?
And I'm like, I'm no longerwilling to live by default.
I'm going to, I'm designingthis next act, my third act, and
so that's what lights me upright now.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
The possibilities.
What could it look like, whatis it going to be, where?
Speaker 3 (57:29):
am I going to live?
What am I going to do?
Who's going to be part of it?
Speaker 1 (57:34):
Yeah, wow, living by design.
That's a good one, love that.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
Yeah, okay.
What color is hope?
Blue?
Speaker 3 (57:46):
And many of your guests have said it's blue.
I'm thinking it's blue.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yellow.
Yellow is often an answer aswell.
Blue and yellow.
Speaker 3 (57:54):
Okay, I must pay attention to the blues.
I'm like blue.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Yeah, yeah, I see the blue.
Yeah, what does hope sound like?
Speaker 3 (58:02):
Oh, a big old sigh, just that Ah.
Speaker 1 (58:11):
God, that's great, the surrenders in that also.
Speaker 2 (58:18):
Okay, so complete the statement.
Surrender is.
Speaker 3 (58:24):
Surrender is letting go and allowing your best life
to emerge.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Creativity is creativity is that which we are
doing at every moment, withevery thought we think that was
a little rev deb in that one Iheard I love it, I love it, I'm
just saying what comes?
Speaker 3 (58:51):
it was beautiful.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
It was beautiful.
I mean that with all love.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
How about family is?
Speaker 3 (59:03):
Family is those that you consciously choose to walk
this path with.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (59:15):
The meaning of life is.
Speaker 3 (59:22):
Well, it's love.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
Okay, and we'll bring it on home with hope is Hope is
.
Speaker 3 (59:33):
Well, you know, my word is surrender.
Hope is surrendering,surrendering to all that is.
I mean, there's so much thatwants to come forth through each
one of us, if we just get outof the way.
Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:49):
Surrender, yeah, oh.
Speaker 2 (59:53):
Yes, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Yeah, oh yes.
It's beautiful.
I what I love that we're onthis screen together talking and
spending this time, but hownice it's been to to just chat
with you about this journey and,you know, being part of it
heart that I didn't know neededsome healing and I'm feeling it.
Just from this little chat thatwe've had this last hour, I can
feel some more sisters.
We got sisters for days.
I mean, those are the sisterswe know about who knows.
I mean, those are the sisters,we know about who knows.
Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
Oh, there you go.
Yeah, we're more coming our way.
Okay, so I know we shared atthe beginning that you've had,
you know, journeys all over ofyour, your I was gonna say
lectures they're not lectures.
Your teachings and meditation,where would they?
Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
go yeah.
So right now I'm working.
I do my thing at Seaside Centerfor Spiritual Living, so the
website for Seaside isseasidecenterorg.
I'm in the process of buildingmy new website, which is
actually going to be my name,debbie McDonaldcom.
Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Oh, I like that.
That's easy to find.
Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Yeah, so there you go .
That's not live, yet I'mworking on that one.
Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Who knows, maybe it will be by the time this
releases, maybe it will be it'spart of that whole creation
thing you know, recreatingmyself in this new thingy by
design.
Yeah, thank you so much, sis,for coming here and being with
us and being so generous withyour heart and your story.
(01:01:48):
I know that this is going totouch and move and change a
number of people.
It's just thank you forsurrendering to it with us.
Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Thank you, I love you both.
Thank you, love you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Thanks for joining us today on Soul Sisteries.
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
And thanks for sharing stories with us.
We'd love to hear your storiesas well and keep the
conversation going Absolutelykeeping the hope going.
So we're really hopeful thatyou'll connect with our guests
as well and keep theconversation going absolutely
keeping the hope going.
So we're really hopeful thatyou'll connect with our guests
as well, who have great storiesto share.
Go ahead and follow them invarious social media platforms
or live venues, wherever it isthat they're performing and
(01:02:31):
sharing what they do.
Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
We would love to have you follow us on all of our
social media platforms,subscribe and rate, as that will
help us get our message of hopeout to others.
Thanks for listening to.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Soul Sisteries.
Welcome to Soul Sisteries.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to Soul Sisteries.
We just had probably one of myfavorite conversations with one
of our other sisters, DebbieMcDonald.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I mean, come on, that was just glorious.
I mean, come on, that was justglorious.
And we continue to have theseeasy conversations.
But the grace and the opennesswith which she shares her story
and you know, the adoption story, which is so close to my heart
and is something that weexperienced from the perimeter
(00:40):
with her, but to go in with such, like I said, grace and beauty,
just man, I love that girl.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, and for me, any time I get to spend with my
sisters is, you know, a blessing.
Here we are at Soul Sisteries,and welcoming one more into this
journey with us has just beenincredible.
I can't wait for everybody tolisten in and hear what she has
to share.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Sister, time is good time.
Enjoy everyone.
We're so glad to be here todaytalking to the wonderful Debbie
McDonald, who just happens to beanother of the sisters.
(01:25):
We have quite a few sisters.
Here's a third for everyone toget to know.
She's obviously been a part ofour lives always.
She's our older sister, sowe've both lived our lives
always with our beautiful Debbiehere with us, and there's so
many wonderful parts to herstory that she's going to focus
(01:48):
on one particular area todaywith us, and so we're so
grateful for that.
Just so everybody knows, debbieis Reverend Debbie.
She's a minister at a spiritualcenter and she's also had a
diverse career path that hasincluded life in Hollywood and
has included interior design andart in so many different forms
(02:12):
and counseling and all sorts ofwonderful paths.
But welcome, welcome, sisterDebbie.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
It's good to be here, how fun it is.
You know this soul sistery andwe certainly have a lot of
stories over well, my 64 years.
You two came in a little bitlater, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Collectively, we have some years under our belt.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We do, and I was sharing with you both recently
that it was 20 plus years ago,23 years ago, that we were
chatting on our weekly calls andtalking about what does the
future hold and what are wedoing together.
And this is kind of cool to seeus right here and actually see
(03:02):
us not just on calls, becausenow we have zoom also.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
So very, that's true back then.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
No zoom and people that's right, we were doing the
dial-in conference call,remember, yeah yeah, people
listening right now are probablygoing.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I can't tell any of you apart, because this is what
diane and I keep hearing youguys sound so much alike, and
obviously I know that your voicesounds a lot like our voices
too.
So here we are, three littlebirds with a similar tune, but
we want to talk to you aboutyour tune and your path, and
when we asked you to come on ourpodcast with us, there were so
(03:42):
many different areas that wecould have talked about, and you
are certainly somebody we bothadmire and love so much and are
just so grateful for havingwalked this path with you.
But one of the stories, one ofthe parts of your story that
resonates, I know for me a greatdeal and I feel so grateful to
(04:03):
have followed the path, is your,your adoption journey, your
your journey of making anadoption plan and all that has
unfolded, and I'd love to focuson that today.
So that's where we're starting,okay, yeah.
So I guess maybe we'll leave itto you, sis, to just kind of
(04:28):
share what you want of the storythat gets us to where we are
today and also, let's just saywe want to say your word too,
because we asked you to come upwith your hope through and share
that with us, if you would.
What is your hope through?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
because it's well, yeah, I, you know, um, when you
all were talking about launchingthis podcast and doing the hope
through and the different words, of course I thought, well,
what would my word be?
What would I?
What would I be talking about?
You know, and and um, because abig part of my life is in
(05:05):
recovery.
I stopped drinking and using 37years ago, which is crazy.
So I always thought, well, hopethrough addiction, that would
be a thing you know.
But then when you asked me tospeak about the adoption and all
of that and the releasing of myson for adoption, you know,
(05:27):
when I was just 16 years old,you know, and I had to think
about that and go like what wasthat about and what would that
hope have been?
And it didn't really feel likea very hopeful time to me, you
know.
It felt like a really reallysad time.
And then I realized that thereally the process and really
for many things in my life hasbeen hope through surrender,
(05:48):
like that final surrender ofletting go, you know, and
literally and figuratively, andthat that that is where the hope
was birthed for me.
So I think that hopefully thatmakes sense to people.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
You know it's gorgeous.
I think that, hopefully, thatmakes sense to people.
You know it's gorgeous.
I mean it's you know what.
I think, though, that there areprobably a number of people who
don't really know what it isthat you mean when you say that
Hope through surrender, becausethat can just like hope through
giving up, hope through throwingin the towel, hope through and
that's not at all what you'retalking about.
So you want to talk a littlebit more about what that means
(06:26):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Because, yes, it is a different kind of a surrender
and it's different than thesurrender that I think a lot of
us grew up with knowing andunderstanding.
Like you know, never give upand never say, uncle, and don't
you know surrender?
We're not talking aboutsurrendering and being a doormat
, or surrendering and justgiving up all hope.
(06:49):
No, it's that irony of you know, in the 12-step community they
talk about surrender.
Power is, you know, a powerthat is greater than us, that
knows all, and we can just allowourselves to feel safe in that
(07:18):
place.
And it takes time to do thatand it's not always done
consciously.
And oh, yes, I, I'm gonnasurrender and the universe will
take care of me.
You know, it's like, yeah, wemay take many, many steps before
we get to.
oh my gosh, I just can't do itanymore and I'm gonna let go and
(07:38):
allow the universe to workthrough me and know it'll be
good you know, know, and themore that we practice that and
we get the results that areamazing and good and the more we
can trust in, the more that wecan do that kind of surrender.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, maybe it's kind of what a lot of people today
talk about with like mindfulnesspractices, right, not not
fighting the waves, just layingand letting the weight and it
take you and move with them,instead of always fighting
against them.
Right, right.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, and that was, you know, when I look at the
whole process of adoption and itcertainly was a process for me,
again, you know, I was very,very young, you know, and I
didn't realize really at thetime of how young I was.
You know, I was very, very young, you know, and I didn't realize
really at the time of how youngI was, you know, but the
(08:30):
surrender came through, what wasreally one of my first
spiritual experiences, and I Ididn't know that that was what
it was at the time, but Iremember, you know, being
pregnant and of course, I was soyoung that I really didn't even
(08:50):
acknowledge the fact that Imight be pregnant.
You know, I was just in absolutedenial about that.
And it wasn't until four orfive months into my pregnancy
that I thought, well, I bettergo and find out if I really am
pregnant.
And, um, you know, you guysgrew up in the same home.
(09:11):
I did.
It was a little bitdysfunctional, to say the least.
And so I found my way to, uh, aPlanned Parenthood, you know,
and I got a pregnancy test and Ifound out that I was pregnant,
you know.
And and in the crazy part ofthat is, you know, it wasn't
(09:32):
suspected by anybody, you know,by my parents anyway, or our
parents.
And so when I finally went totalk to mom and tell her, and
then my experience of having totell dad, I mean all of that was
just horrendously awful, youknow, and um, and then I had to
make a decision, you know, aboutwhat was I going to do.
(09:54):
And this is where spiritualexperiences comes in, and I
haven't told this to larry yetand larry is my son who, um, I
had I was 16, almost 17.
And in 2020, my gift of COVIDwas that the year that I got to
meet him and start arelationship with him.
So that's amazing.
(10:16):
But at the time I got reallyquiet and I did spend a lot of
time with just myself duringthat time, because I couldn't go
to school, I was home alone andI always had this connection
with some kind of spiritualthing, and somewhere it got
(10:38):
really clear to me that I hadmade an agreement with this soul
to bring it forth into theworld, whether I was the person
that was going to be his motheror not and raise him.
And now I had no idea.
I mean, I've learned so muchsince then, but at that point it
was really, really clear thatwe had made this deal.
(11:01):
You know, and that was my firstsurrender to okay.
You know, that was theagreement, as weird as it seems
I mean, it seems weird to evensay it now but it was very, very
clear to me that that was thedeal and so I did make the
(11:24):
choice and there's a whole bunchof weird synchronistic things
that happened how he ended upwith, the family that he ended
up with and all of that.
But it was the letting go andallowing that to be and trusting
it.
Oh, there's so many littlethings that happened.
You know, I don't know if yougirls remember, but I didn't
(11:49):
fully and I hope this isn't toomuch information for your
listeners, but I didn't fullyexpel the placenta and I think
that was.
You know, it's like a symbolicof holding on, like I wasn't
really releasing it.
And I came home and I gotreally sick and I had to go back
to the hospital.
I don't know if you girlsremember that, yeah, and mom was
(12:11):
all like, well, this has neverhappened to me, I've had five
children and why did this happen?
And you know, and it was justreally interesting and and I
remember being in the hospitaland there was this one nurse who
was just so sweet and and backin then I guess it was 1976,
they did it.
It was very different thanbirthing a child now.
It was very much the way thatprobably mom had to do it and
(12:34):
the women before, where theyjust kept you laid down,
strapped in.
You couldn't get up and walkaround.
It wasn't natural by any meanswhatsoever.
It was a long, long, long, longbirth, which is so weird
because Sean and Brianna, my twochildren that I had later in
life, were like speedy birds.
Like you know, four hours startto finish, but Larry was long.
(12:55):
It was long and uh, and did wesay he was born on mother's day?
That's kind of an interestingthing.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
There was a family gathering celebrating Mother's
Day at our home.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
And mom came, you know, and she stayed with me
that whole time and it wasfinally when the doctors, after
many hours of labor, they saidwe're going to have to do a
cesarean if you don't, you know,start having some movement.
And then it was there.
So I mean now in retrospect,and after many years of therapy
and body work and all kinds ofthings, you know, I realized
that there was this holding on,even in the letting go and
(13:30):
physically holding on andpsychologically holding on.
But there was this one nurseand that's what I started to say
that she came to me becausethey put me on a surgery floor.
They didn't put me on thematernity floor because they
thought, I think, that that wasbeing nice, so I wouldn't be
with all the other mothers andbabies.
And then, when Larry was born, Isaw him for just a second and
(13:52):
they took him to the nursery andthere was this one nurse who
kept encouraging me go go seehim, go see him, go see him, you
know.
And and everybody else justpretended like I hadn't had a
baby, I just there.
It was very, very weird and, uh, I, um, I couldn't go.
I couldn't go see him because Iknew if I held him, there was
(14:16):
no way I would be able torelease him, you know, and I um,
over the years, I wondered ifthat was the right thing or the
wrong thing, or the good thingor the bad thing, you know, but
it just wasn't what it was, youknow.
And then life changed a wholebunch after that, yeah, you know
(14:48):
, and then coming full circlewith having a sister who then
adopted a little boy, and I gotto see both, it was just, it's
just been this crazy part of mylife, you know.
And then, of course, nowmeeting him and knowing him and
all of that.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So anyway, and it's the way it's supposed to be
right, because it is what theuniverse unfolded for you.
But listening to you tell thestory that I hadn't ever heard
before about when you made thedecision of what you were going
to do, it reminded me of a bookthat you turned me on to many
years later, after you know myown kind of spiritual journey,
(15:24):
but that Neil Donald Walsh book,the, the children's book, you
know, the little soil where youknow they make kind of this,
packed together to this, is thejourney we're going to go on,
and that's very cool because itwas.
You know, I don't know who wasspeaking to you, right?
(15:44):
Was it the little soul speakingto you?
Was it spirit?
You know, I don't know who wasspeaking to you, right?
Was it the little soul speakingto you?
Was it spirit speaking to you?
Who knows?
But something came to you.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Well, your journey had aprofound effect on me.
I can tell you a little.
You know, middle child rolethat I had was to observe, be
hyper observant and vigilant ofeveryone and everything right.
So I was very aware of you atthis time in your energy, and I
(16:14):
can tell you my experience ofyour energy and your presence
through all of this was that youwere incredibly mature, mature
and you were incredibly groundedand in this it felt like you
were in this separate space ofcreativity and I don't mean that
(16:40):
in a silly way you werecreating a child, I don't mean
that you were just in a creativespace and you were in this
space of growth and it was.
It was like palpable, it wasjust.
It was really palpable andcalming for me to feel.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Now I know you had your own experience internally,
but that's what you wereradiating always through.
That, I mean, I know it reallywasn't out in the open because,
(17:23):
you know, Diana, my baby sisterdidn't even know I was pregnant
till the day I went to thehospital, and that's like when
you talk about the family system, that's just cuckoo.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
But, anyway, maybe that's one reason why we're so
adamant to be out here talking,talking, talking.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
And we're going to share stories because you know
there's a whole lot of you don'tspeak, and certainly why I
probably, you know chose thefield I did, going into, you
know, family therapy for sure.
But also, I guess I just want tosecond what you said, donna,
because I was young, I was eight, and I didn't know what was
(18:03):
going on, but my recollection ofyou was that you were very
nurturing, that you were verymuch of a caretaker for me.
I mean, I remember you spendingone-on-one time with me.
I remember you taking me out toMarie Callender's for pie,
which is still one of the most,you know, memorable moments in
(18:25):
my life, to remember my sisterwho, at 16 years old, was, you
know, taking me out.
That's cool.
I remember the dress you madefor me during that time that I
wish I still owned.
So I think you were, I think,emotionally, you were nurturing
(18:47):
and taking care of little Larryinside of you, even though you
knew this was a gift forsomebody else, that he wasn't
yours to keep.
But I think you did all ofthese very nurturing, caretaking
things during that time.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So very beautiful, very beautiful, amazingly
profound and at the same timeI'm very aware and you know,
think back, my God.
You were just a kid.
You were totally a kid and akid without a lot of information
or resources, and yet you foundthis yourself through your own
(19:28):
surrender and listening to yourinner guidance, I would assume,
because you were reallyself-directed too, because I
know you had a lot of otherinformation coming at you about
the shoulds and the choices andyou made your own way and there
(19:51):
was, just say, there was a wholelot having.
You know, we all went to thesame Catholic girls school,
which there were a lot of greatthings about that school for us
in various ways, lot of greatthings about that school for us
in various ways.
But you know you weren't,wasn't that you couldn't go to
think they wouldn't allow you inthis school, to continue your
education there at this time,while you were pregnant, like
(20:13):
what a what a thing?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
But you know what they did do, and there were some
good things, you know.
Now I was went to an all girlparochial school Catholic school
and in my class I was not alonein being pregnant, which is
very interesting.
There was two other girls whowere pregnant at the same time
as me and we were all you know.
It was our junior year and wewere asked not to come to class,
(20:39):
you know, during that time.
But they did let us come forour ring ceremony.
Do you remember getting in yourring?
And they let us come for ourring ceremony.
Do you remember getting in yourroom?
And they let us come for ourclass rings.
And the students had petitionedand asked if we could come and
they did allow us to do that,which is interesting, you know,
I remember the dress I wore,that it didn't going there, you
know.
And then I remember now I justgot to put this in because when
(21:04):
I went back to school, uh, theprincipal called me in the
office and she asked me what itwas that they could do to help
other girls so they wouldn't bein this situation.
And I said well, you know whatwe should teach about birth
control?
Yes, and the guy was likeflabbergasted like there's no
way we're doing that and I goall right.
(21:25):
Well, you asked.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I mean.
Well, three girls out of aclass of what was it like 100
girls are pregnant.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
This tells us that maybe you know what's funny.
I mean clearly differentexperiences, right.
But here I am.
What, eight years after you andat the same school but
certainly you know, Donna, youshared your middle child kind of
reaction.
Mine at the youngest was likeI'm just going to ask questions
(21:52):
and I'm not going to let thingsjust go by.
If I want to know, I'm going toask, and if somebody asks me,
I'm going to tell so don't askif you don't want to know, sort
of thing.
But I remember then me being inhigh school, eight years later
at the same school, and thenhaving a debate about pro-life,
(22:13):
pro-choice, but come to find outit was only pro-life.
They let us ask questions and Isaid don't you think that if
we're having a debate we shouldhear the other side, Because
wouldn't that be helpful for us?
We never got that other side,but I think maybe somewhere
along the way I had heard thatstory of you saying that to the
(22:35):
nun or the principal and justsaying, like how about we tell
us girls what we need to know inthe 80s, Right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, and except the fact that we're sexual beings
and all of this kind of stuff.
But that's a.
That's a whole other discussion, right.
Yeah yeah, the normalcy of whowe are, I mean.
So what a profound experience.
And so I'm the one out of thesisters who then became an
adoptive mother who was able tohave my second son through this
(23:10):
beautiful gift of adoption, andknowing you and your story was,
of course, enormously helpful tome on that path, and I was
immediately aware that thisadoption story is this gorgeous
triangle of mother, mother andchild, and that this gift that I
(23:33):
received from my son's birthmother is like just the most
profound gift of mother loveimaginable gift of mother love
imaginable that her choice wasfor his greatest good.
I give you my boy to love andto be his mother, because I love
(23:54):
him so much and I want what'sbest for him.
I just I'm blown away by thatact, and his birth mother was 14
when she made that choice, andI think of you and she and this
gorgeous, selfless, beautifulact of love for your sons, for
(24:31):
your sons it's it bowls me overthat that you could find that in
you and live that, just sayingthat out loud.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah, you know, there's a lot that I've learned,
of course, over the years, andI guess everything that happens
in our lives is for us tosomehow to learn and grow.
And I remember, years ago,being in therapy and I don't
remember which therapist it wasat the time because I've had
different ones but I rememberthem saying to me now you get
(24:59):
that you didn't really have achoice, right?
And I'm like well, what do youmean?
No, I had a choice.
And she's like OK, you were 16years old.
Your father said if you chose tokeep the baby, you would not be
allowed to live there, youwould have to move out, you
would have to go on welfare, youwould have to, you know, find a
way to do this all on your own,that there would be no family
(25:20):
support.
And she's like now, that's notreally a choice.
You know when you're, you know,16 years old, but I didn't
realize that at the time.
You know, I didn't realize thatat the time because that was my
initial response is that Iwanted to keep my baby and raise
my baby, you know, and ofcourse, the father wasn't
(25:42):
interested in any of that at thetime, and so it's just these
things that I learned, and it'sit's like somehow I was carried
through all of that, you know,because I certainly didn't know
how to do it, but there wassomething that was guiding me
and and moving me through that,you know.
(26:03):
And now I'd like to say, andmoving me through that, you know
.
And now I'd like to say, oh,and then I had Larry, and
everything was hunky-dory andpeachy-keying, but then it's
like, then the wheels fell offfor me, you know, after that,
and I really went down a deephole, you know, until years
later, when I, you know, wasable to find some kind of
(26:24):
emotional, spiritual, you knowrecovery.
But yeah, so life isinteresting, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Isn't it Jess?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
And our life's interesting, which I think is
like one of the catalysts foryou all.
Starting this, you know, is outof tragedy and heartache and,
you know, all these other thingsthat happen in life.
There is hope, yeah thatthere's hope, like the little
green bud starts to growsomewhere you know and new life
(26:55):
starts.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, you can share with us.
Then you know I have my ownideas, but it's like oh, how
much of what I know and believeis real, or is it stuff I made
up?
So?
76, you give birth to Larry.
2020, COVID, you guys meet asadults for the first time.
(27:18):
What do you want to share withus about what took place in
those 44 years to get you tothat place of ready to meet,
ready to reopen a door?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
You know, one of the things that I would want to say
is this is interesting because,again, it's life and how it
shows up and the synchronicitiesyou know, and I had always made
the decision that I would notreach out to him, that I would
wait for him to reach out to meif he wanted to meet me, because
(27:56):
I didn't want to disrupt hislife.
You know, if he'd created thislife and now I had, you know, I
had been married and my husbandknew well before we got married
that I had had Larry and mychildren, I told when they were
a little bit older and then so Iwas never a secret.
You know, it wasn't somethingthat was a secret.
(28:17):
But what happened when allthese hereditary things came
about that you can go online,right, but what happened when
all these hereditary things cameabout that you can go online,
right?
Our niece discovered that shehad a cousin, that she didn't
know who the cousin was.
So she asked her father and hecalled me and although it was
never really a secret, I guessthey did not know that.
So again, I thought well, I'mgoing to wait for him to reach
(28:39):
out, I'm not going to reach out.
I'm going to wait for him toreach out, I'm not going to
reach out, I'm going to wait forhim to reach out.
And then and then I was at adinner that was for something
totally unrelated and this youngman walked in and he was really
kind of contemplative and quietand he sat across from me and
I'd never met him before, Ihaven't seen him since and I was
(29:01):
started to talk.
Talk to him and he said he hadjust received that day the
letter in the mail of who hisbirth parents were and the state
that he had born in was born in, I think, philadelphia or
pennsylvania or something hadjust allowed you to find out who
that was.
So we and he didn't know what hewas going to do because he did
(29:21):
not want to disrupt his birthmother's life.
He wasn't sure and I thoughtwell, isn't that interesting.
I wonder if larry feels thesame way and like we're both
sitting here thinking, well,we're not going to reach out
because we don't know if we wantto interrupt the other person's
life, right, so it just wascoming up on his birthday.
(29:45):
Um, some other family membershad tried to do.
Ask them not to you know betweenthe lines, everyone my niece to
please not reach out, to lethim reach out, you know.
And then I was laying in bed,like I said, it was a day or two
(30:08):
before his birthday, which isMay 8th, and I thought what the
heck I'm just going to send aletter through this?
Oh, because by then I had donethe hereditary thing and it came
up right away, you know, yourson.
And so I sent him an emailthrough the app and, uh, I
thought whatever's gonna be iswhat's gonna be, you know, like
(30:30):
another surrender, right, likewhatever here we go and you know
, the next day he emailed rightback.
We talked the next day.
Uh, it was funny, we didn'tcall.
I sent him my phone number andhe didn't call on his birthday.
But he called the day betweenhis birthday and mother's day
Cause he thought it might be toomuch to call on mother's day
(30:51):
for the first time.
So we talked on the phone andof course it was COVID.
So it took a little while forus to get together.
You know, and, and you know,what you want to know more than
anything, I think, if you havereleased a child for adoption,
(31:16):
is that they're happy and thatthey're healthy and that they
had a good life and that they'reOK.
And, gosh, it was so good tosee that he was all those things
.
He was happy he had gone to SC,which for us we know know we
have many, many family memberswho've gone to usc.
Uh, he had um interest inthings that were part of our
family.
Yeah, his daughter, who had mygranddaughter she has it's
(31:39):
really.
It's that nurture versus an age.
It's just this really trip.
You know, one of the firstthings he said to me, one of the
first times I talked to him,was he thanked me for birthing
him, you know, and his wife isamazing and it's just a fabulous
(32:04):
thing.
It's a fabulous thing to knowthat he's had this great life
and his family.
He has another brother who hisparents adopted and so he has
the experience of, like he said,when he was a little boy he
thought that's just what you did.
You went and picked out yourbrother, you know.
So, yeah, really good, you knowhe always knew he was adopted,
(32:28):
you know.
So, yeah, really good, you knowhe always knew he was adopted.
You know, and it's not thequestion you asked me, I don't
know, but it was just.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
It just turned out to be really a beautiful,
wonderful, full circle, amazingthing for me comes into your,
not only he and his wife, but hehas a daughter, who you have
this lovely additional.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Yes, who you girls can spend more time with.
Since she's gone to college onthe East Coast, she's got to
spend time with her aunties.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
We just adore her.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
She is my only niece that's been at my house yet.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, been at my house yet?
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It is something.
There is something soincredible about that nature
versus nurture thing there.
You know, we each have withinus these things that are
uniquely ours and we have thosethings that are part of the DNA
and we have those things thatare part of the family and, and
so, you know, being the motherof a child through adoption he
(33:25):
is, he is wholly my kid, and Ihave birthed a child also, and I
, you know, raising two sons.
They both my boys and the.
The most significant differenceis there's there's certain
features and certain aspectsthat you can't say, oh, like
that's grandpa's nose and that'swhat you know.
Don't have that with my secondson, but in some, you know, he
(33:49):
and I have such commonalities ashe does with my husband, his
dad, but yet I also, because Iknow many things about his birth
mother, who made choices not toremain in our story and for
today.
We'll see what the future holds.
But we have a lot ofinformation and there are many
(34:11):
things that he has in commonwith her, and one is his
incredibly gorgeous singingvoice and his musicality, which
he gets from her.
That was one of her greatestjoys in life was singing, yes,
and he also has a birthmark,like in the exact same spot that
she has a birthmark and I justlove that.
He is hers also and he's mineand he's his.
(34:35):
He's his own and all of this istrue.
Anyway, I just took one on alittle side story, but you know.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
But that's interesting because, you know, I
haven't met um larry's uh momand dad and um, I really feel
that they're his mom and dad youknow, they're.
They're people that raised himand they're the people that um
loved him and they're the peoplethat took care of him and, uh,
and I feel like I had theprivilege of birthing him.
(35:03):
You know, and you know, I'mnever quite sure exactly what to
call him.
Like you know, you say my birthmother, but do you say my birth
son?
Do you say I don't know?
You know, but you know, he'sjust a beautiful man and I'm
(35:24):
glad he's on the planet.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yes, and you brought him onto the planet.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I had a part in that yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah for sure.
What was that like?
Tell us, that moment when yougot to meet him, see him again
for the first time in 44 years,face to face, and look in his
face and just Because it was onvideo first.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Right, you met on video because it was during
COVID.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
No we talked on the phone, gosh.
I don't think we did video, Ithink we talked just.
I went up to where he lived andhim and I got to sit and spend
time together.
His wife and daughter were inanother part of the house and
they just allowed us to be thetwo of us.
(36:14):
Then they came in later and Igot to meet them, but it was
very exciting.
It was very exciting to see him, to meet him.
I saw right away a familyresemblance.
You know we're Italian and helooks like the whole Italian
side of our family you know, tome, oh yeah, we can all see it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
We're like oh yeah, yeah, and I see it in his
daughter as well.
I'm like right, right,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
My niece Yep, absolutely.
But what was the thing thatreally struck me the most was I
feel like I knew him forever.
Yeah, I just felt like I knewhim.
That was just yeah, you know, Ididn't maybe know all the
things that he had done orhappened in his life, but I just
felt just like, yeah, like Iknew him, you know.
And that's so to me.
(37:06):
There was no awkwardness orweirdness or you know, we just
started chatting away and we cantalk easily.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
It feels like to me when we talk and um, and I think
all of us I mean totallydifferent stories for all of us,
right?
I was just a little girl whenhe was born, so he's we're all
the eight years apart, but Iknow my experience of you know,
every Mother's Day at least,thinking about him and where is
(37:36):
he?
And hoping that someday wecould meet and I could meet.
And I know, before I lost mypartner, in 2020, our niece had
already done the DNA and alreadyhad that connection.
So I remember us talking aboutwhat that's going to be like and
we're going to finally meetthis kid who's not a kid because
(37:57):
he's my peer, but what is thatgoing to be like?
And that you know?
Are we going to have this otherperson in our family?
Is this going to be part of ourfamily?
Or are they going to be kind of, oh, there he is and he wants
nothing to do with us and we'vebeen waiting for 40 plus years
to get to meet him.
Has he been waiting for us also?
You know just yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Can you say, sis, that part of the reason that all
of this is as successful as itis is that there's tremendous
openness from all parties?
I guess what I'm asking isthere are a great many people
who you know reconnect withbirth parents and who do not
(38:41):
have this type of experience.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
You know, I don't know.
I think about that like howfortunate I am that it has been
like really storybook for me,like the way that if I would
dream that I would have wantedit to be that it has been.
And I know that that's not truefor everybody and I know it
(39:04):
could have gone on a lot ofdifferent ways and it's just, I
really don't know, I don't knowwhy.
It is just and and yes, I'venever sensed from larry or his
family any sort of um,resistance and I certainly
haven't felt any kind ofresistance.
(39:24):
And I think our entire family,my extended family, all has that
openness to, you know, alwaysconsider my no, you know, mom
always considered Larry.
You know her first grandchild,you know, and it was really
important for her to know himand she got much more vocal
(39:46):
about that as she got older.
She just knew she had a greatgrandchild and she was, you know
, but I think there was thatopenness to um, yeah, I know
that there was a part of ourfamily that was out there, at
least biologically.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
You know, part of our family that was out there and
so, yeah, biologically you knowpart of her family that was out
there and so, yeah, it's been.
Yeah, I don't know.
So I'm going to get us to ourquestions, because I know we
don't want to keep y'all all daylong.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
So if you're, going to the questions, could I ask
one more part of the journey,just to see just real quick?
What do you do if she says nojourney, just to see just real
quick?
Uh, well, I don't know.
What do you do if she says, no,let's keep talking, no, okay,
so I just want it, because Iknow that your journey and I you
don't have to share about it.
It's whatever you choose, but Iknow, along your journey to
(40:36):
then becoming a mother to yourtwo children whom you raised,
that was a that was a roughjourney.
That they're, yeah, that thatwas a rough journey.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
So what we know now and those are, you know, I think
it's more common that you'vegot the somatic, you know,
emotional, somatic parts of ourbody right and that when I
decided that my husband and Iwanted to have children, I had
two miscarriages and after doingthe work and going and working
(41:12):
with a body worker for a numberof years, really realizing I had
to go back and I had healingwork to do, I had stuff that I
needed to do, had stuff that Ineeded to do, you know, and when
I was able to release that andmove into the next place, I
(41:32):
easily got pregnant and had mylittle monkey and, yeah, and, as
you said, very easy.
Children are very young anymore,32, and you know and nor are
they very little.
These are both very easy birthand easy pregnancy.
But it really was it required,going back and doing the work
you know, going back and doingthe healing and the letting go.
And it was still letting go.
(41:53):
There was still a letting go of, uh, the past, you know, and
that experience and that thetraumatic part of it you know,
yeah, yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Well, you also in that arena doing that work, you
were a way shower for me.
I will say I had a number ofchildhood traumas in my body and
I went to that very same bodyworker and did a lot of healing
and release and a lot ofchallenges on my own path to
motherhood as well.
(42:26):
But you really did.
You were if I've not told youthat before, you should know
that you were an influencer anda way shower for me in my own
journey.
In fact I would go to that.
But I remember I would go andI'd like stay overnight at your
house because she was down downsouth, right she was glorious.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
There was a lot of good work.
Go and I'd like stay overnightat your house because she was
down down south right.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yes, I remember that she was glorious.
There was a lot of good workdone there.
So thank you for that.
And I also followed you intothose 12-step rooms, Also a
different path.
I didn't have the addictions,but I certainly had that
codependency in spades andcertainly fit in those rooms and
there was much healing there.
(43:06):
So thank you, sister, for allof that beautiful guidance and
holding space for my own healingjourney.
Truly, you've been just a huge,huge influence and way shower
in my life and I'm so, sograteful and a big reason why
you are also the godmother of myadopted child, because it's
(43:29):
just a beautiful connectionthere.
Anyway, okay, Okay.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Questions.
Yeah, so, because we arechatting for a little bit.
But the question that I alwayslike the answer to, I always
like to hear what the responseis, is what would?
I guess I'm going to go to 13,.
Right, you had Larry at 16.
So what would your 13 year oldself, looking at your journey,
(43:57):
looking at where you've comefrom, where you're today, at
where you're going, what wouldthat 13-year-old, sweet little
Debbie say about you and to you?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Gosh, I don't know what she would say to me, but I
know what I would want to say toher.
Say that then.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
What would you say to her?
Speaker 3 (44:19):
You know, I would let her know that she is valuable,
that she is significant, thatshe is somebody and that she
deserves to be treated with loveand kindness and respect and
that she doesn't have to giveherself away.
(44:40):
She doesn't have to throwherself away, that it's all
going to be okay.
It's all going to be okay.
You know, I would just love herBecause she was so lost.
She was so lost and alone andreally confused by the world and
(45:02):
everything.
I mean just all of it was justlost and really had nobody to
Ask the questions.
I love that that became yourprocess.
I, like I'm just going to askthe questions.
You know, I was just muddlingthrough the best, that good, and
not doing so well, you know.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
You know, and it's so funny because asking the
questions I not only just askthe questions I like, I think,
purposely put myself in the wayof people that maybe didn't want
to ask questions.
And I'm thinking specificallyof, like high school, marriage
and family class and my fatherand stepmother, and asking them
questions that I already knewanswers to.
(45:44):
But I wanted their answers andit was like, sorry, guys, I've
got this list of 20 questionsand you need to respond, so like
for you to talk to.
I mean that hurts for mebecause again, at 13, I was five
, I guess, when you were 13.
And so I was just the littleone in the family that you know.
(46:05):
I think you and Donna both tooka role in raising me, you know,
especially, mom and dad wereworking and I had more
interaction with you guys thananybody else.
Our oldest sister, not really,I think, she was living her own
life already, probably by thetime I was born, but I think I
just remember so much justcaring and guidance, and so
(46:27):
that's just when I think of youas a little girl, and 16, you're
still a little girl.
I didn't know that then, but Ifeel so lost and alone and
unsure.
But yet make me, but yet makeme.
I'm going to cry.
Make me feel safe and secure,and not alone.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Same same same.
That's huge, that's huge.
And then you found it withinyourself, even in this space, to
make the choices you made forLarry and for his journey, based
on this agreement that youunderstood.
I mean, that's like wow, what aflipping rock star.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
That little girl is truly what an amazing, amazing
powerhouse that, despite all, inspite of all and all that she
went on to do and find anddiscover.
Because that's not just like,oh, it just happened to you.
There are choices along the wayto your own recovery, to your
(47:40):
own, you know life's work, toyour own motherhood journeys.
All of those things, they'reyour choices along the way.
Pretty amazing story, sis,Truly Okay.
More questions, Sissy, when arewe?
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Here's actually a good one, because you know,
donna, you opened this with justsharing what an inspiration
Debbie has been to us, and I'mcurious, I guess two parts when
you were younger, who was yourinspiration, and today, who
(48:21):
inspires you?
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Hmm, inspiration and today who inspires you.
You know, one of my mostinspirational people in my life
as I became an adult was one ofmy mentors and teachers who's
(48:44):
passed on and, um, she's amongsta group of women who truly do
inspire me, in that they speaktheir truth, they walk their
walk.
They're not about.
One of her favorite sayings wasit's not a popularity contest.
(49:07):
And I'd be like what do youmean?
It's not a popularity contest.
You know, like?
And she used to always say her,um, she wanted to get to that
place where she had nothing toprotect and nothing to defend,
and that she would just betransparent, and I'd be like oh
yeah, I want to be able to dothat, you know, and uh huh so.
(49:33):
so she was very inspirational tome and other women that I know
that like her, when I wasyounger.
It's interesting because Idon't think you girls have the
same experience, but I have verylittle memories of being little
.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
And when they ask questions like what did you want
to?
Speaker 1 (49:48):
be when you grow up?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
I'm like oh no, I don't even remember, you know,
and so I don't know who my rolemodels or my people were when I
was little.
Um, I really don't yeah, no,that's okay.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
yeah, yeah, and that speaks volumes to feeling alone
and unsafe.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Well, thank goodness for that tribe, that sisterhood
that did come in to your worldand I know exactly who you were
talking about and I know allthat she means to you and that
group of women.
And she, even before youanswered, she had come to my
mind and I know, I know whoshe's going to my mind, I know
what she's going to talk about,I know what she's going to say
and I know the importance andthat's just sort of that
(50:39):
surrender too right, thesurrender that brings these
beautiful people into your world.
Yeah Well, should we jump intoour rapid?
Speaker 2 (50:52):
fire sis?
Yeah, except for I was thinking.
There's a question that youusually like to ask, and that is
you always say it better than Iwill, but I could try to say it
Go ahead when this long journeyis over.
You know, 40 or 50 years fromnow.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Diana likes longevity .
Speaker 2 (51:16):
So, when this part of your journey is over and you go
back to wherever we go, how doyou want to be remembered by the
people that are still here?
Speaker 3 (51:31):
I would want to be remembered as somebody who loved
them and didn't judge them.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yeah, I think you're good at that, sis.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
I think you've already succeeded on that one,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
Hope I can keep doing it yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
So yeah, donna, I think this is it.
I think this is where we get toour rapid fire, rapid fire.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So yeah, donna, I think this isit.
I think this is where we get toour rapid fire, rapid fire.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Okay, all right, so we just have this list of
questions.
You've listened, you know.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
I have listened and I have thought of a few of these.
I'll just tell you in advance.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
We've recently changed some of them, oh, okay.
There'll be changed some, okay.
Well, the first one is afamiliar one.
What is your walk-in song?
You know, when you're walkingout on that stage or up to the
pitcher's mound, what's?
Speaker 3 (52:25):
your walk-in song.
You know, this is when Ithought about it and I have a
hard time coming up with it,because one of the songs that I
really, really love but I don'tknow what would be your walk-in
song, but it's a country songyeah, everything's Holy Now.
Do you know that song?
I don't.
I play it at my ordination.
It's one of my favorite songsEverything's Holy Now.
(52:48):
Well then, I've heard itbecause I was there, yes.
But then if you think about yourwalk-on song, then it's got to
be like.
You know, I will survive.
You know, at first I was afraid.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yeah, your walk in song could be anything.
You want it to be.
There you go, there, you goyeah.
Speaker 3 (53:06):
I think more upbeat is good, but everything's holy
now is like so perfect.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
I'm going to check that out.
So what book changed you oh?
Speaker 3 (53:21):
gosh the Secret Garden.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
The Secret Garden.
Yeah, it's a beautiful book andit's very layered and rich.
It's a great book.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
I have to.
I know nobody's watching this,they're just listening, but of
course I see a whole wall ofbooks behind you, right?
Speaker 1 (53:42):
And you, and you.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
I used to love as a little girl and you were in high
school and you had thatbookshelf above your bed and I
used to love going and standingon your bed and picking out one
of your books and going andreading it, even if it didn't
make sense to me, I just wantedto read your books.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
A hundred percent Tree Grows in Brooklyn.
That's where I found it.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
Tree Grows in Brooklyn.
I would be one of my secondrunner-ups there, I believe
forever I discovered.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
And then I would go to grandma's house to aunt suzel
bedroom and her bookshelf.
That was my number two favoritebookshelf.
Very cute, yeah, oh.
Next question um, what movielives rent-free in your brain?
Speaker 3 (54:29):
wow you know, I have a movie quote for every single
thing that happens in my life.
My friends have recentlypointed that out to me.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah, we're all Gilmore girls.
We are all Lorelei.
Oh well, I'm muted.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
Gilmore girls but gosh, so many.
Any musical, you know, I don'tknow what, which specific one
you, you know, I always saysound of music is like my
favorite movie, but I don't knowthat I would say that that red
lives rent free.
You know, I mean love actually,you know, yeah you know, yeah,
(55:10):
perfect, fun, okay, what I?
Speaker 2 (55:14):
I know you said you don't remember much about being
a little one, but what did youlove doing as a kid that you
still love doing to this day?
Speaker 3 (55:26):
I love playing make-believe.
I loved playing make-believewhether it was making a store,
making a, the Olympics, thecarnival in the backyard, the
theater, the stage.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
You know being creative and doing make-believe,
you guys, you guys anybodylistening?
You have to just picture thisLike her bedroom she would make
over, with clothes literallytagged to the walls and price
tags and little shopping bags,and the whole like this was a
whole boutique that we wouldthen go in and shop.
(56:05):
Wouldn't that be fun?
Speaker 3 (56:06):
And then Uncle Roy gave me a mannequin.
Remember, I had the mannequinfor a while.
That was crazy.
Speaker 2 (56:14):
You still are very, very creative today.
I mean, yeah, yeah, you stillare very, very creative today.
I mean, the things you do arevery, you know, are driven by
your creativity.
I do like to create.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
I do dream it.
Be it.
There you go.
Well isn't?
Yeah, create, you've got thaton your license also, that's
your thing.
That's your thing, okay.
What in your world is lightingyou up right now?
Speaker 3 (56:37):
Well, you too, you too, for sure, this journey of
yours, and you know thepossibilities.
I'm at a place in my life whereI'm really looking at, you know
, the next 20 years, my thirdact.
I'm calling it like.
What does that look like?
What do I want it to be?
(56:58):
What do I want to do?
So it's again, it's a way ofcreating for me, like I'm going
to create.
One of the things I say in myclasses and when I speak is this
new thing and I didn't createit.
It came from someone else.
But are you living by design ordefault?
From someone else?
(57:18):
But are you living by design ordefault?
And I'm like, I'm no longerwilling to live by default.
I'm going to, I'm designingthis next act, my third act, and
so that's what lights me upright now.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
The possibilities.
What could it look like, whatis it going to be, where?
Speaker 3 (57:29):
am I going to live?
What am I going to do?
Who's going to be part of it?
Speaker 1 (57:34):
Yeah, wow, living by design.
That's a good one, love that.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
Yeah, okay.
What color is hope?
Blue?
Speaker 3 (57:46):
And many of your guests have said it's blue.
I'm thinking it's blue.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yellow.
Yellow is often an answer aswell.
Blue and yellow.
Speaker 3 (57:54):
Okay, I must pay attention to the blues.
I'm like blue.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Yeah, yeah, I see the blue.
Yeah, what does hope sound like?
Speaker 3 (58:02):
Oh, a big old sigh, just that Ah.
Speaker 1 (58:11):
God, that's great, the surrenders in that also.
Speaker 2 (58:18):
Okay, so complete the statement.
Surrender is.
Speaker 3 (58:24):
Surrender is letting go and allowing your best life
to emerge.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Creativity is creativity is that which we are
doing at every moment, withevery thought we think that was
a little rev deb in that one Iheard I love it, I love it, I'm
just saying what comes?
Speaker 3 (58:51):
it was beautiful.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
It was beautiful.
I mean that with all love.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
How about family is?
Speaker 3 (59:03):
Family is those that you consciously choose to walk
this path with.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (59:15):
The meaning of life is.
Speaker 3 (59:22):
Well, it's love.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
Okay, and we'll bring it on home with hope is Hope is
.
Speaker 3 (59:33):
Well, you know, my word is surrender.
Hope is surrendering,surrendering to all that is.
I mean, there's so much thatwants to come forth through each
one of us, if we just get outof the way.
Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:49):
Surrender, yeah, oh.
Speaker 2 (59:53):
Yes, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Yeah, oh yes.
It's beautiful.
I what I love that we're onthis screen together talking and
spending this time, but hownice it's been to to just chat
with you about this journey and,you know, being part of it
heart that I didn't know neededsome healing and I'm feeling it.
Just from this little chat thatwe've had this last hour, I can
feel some more sisters.
We got sisters for days.
I mean, those are the sisterswe know about who knows.
I mean, those are the sisters,we know about who knows.
Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
Oh, there you go.
Yeah, we're more coming our way.
Okay, so I know we shared atthe beginning that you've had,
you know, journeys all over ofyour, your I was gonna say
lectures they're not lectures.
Your teachings and meditation,where would they?
Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
go yeah.
So right now I'm working.
I do my thing at Seaside Centerfor Spiritual Living, so the
website for Seaside isseasidecenterorg.
I'm in the process of buildingmy new website, which is
actually going to be my name,debbie McDonaldcom.
Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Oh, I like that.
That's easy to find.
Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Yeah, so there you go .
That's not live, yet I'mworking on that one.
Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Who knows, maybe it will be by the time this
releases, maybe it will be it'spart of that whole creation
thing you know, recreatingmyself in this new thingy by
design.
Yeah, thank you so much, sis,for coming here and being with
us and being so generous withyour heart and your story.
(01:01:48):
I know that this is going totouch and move and change a
number of people.
It's just thank you forsurrendering to it with us.
Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Thank you, I love you both.
Thank you, love you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Thanks for joining us today on Soul Sisteries.
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
And thanks for sharing stories with us.
We'd love to hear your storiesas well and keep the
conversation going Absolutelykeeping the hope going.
So we're really hopeful thatyou'll connect with our guests
as well and keep theconversation going absolutely
keeping the hope going.
So we're really hopeful thatyou'll connect with our guests
as well, who have great storiesto share.
Go ahead and follow them invarious social media platforms
or live venues, wherever it isthat they're performing and
(01:02:31):
sharing what they do.
Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
We would love to have you follow us on all of our
social media platforms,subscribe and rate, as that will
help us get our message of hopeout to others.
Thanks for listening to.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Soul Sisteries.
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