December 25, 2024 • 48 mins
This episode reveals the deep bond between sisters Dona and Diana, as they share their journeys of love, loss, and hope. Through storytelling, they inspire listeners to connect and heal, highlighting the importance of community and the transformative power of shared experiences.
• Reflection on childhood creativity and sisterly bond
• Discussion of personal stories of loss and grief
• Emphasis on the power of storytelling for healing
• The role of community in navigating grief
• Intentionality in creating hope through action
• Invitation to listeners to share their own stories
• Future plans for featuring guests' experiences
• Call for community and connection in the healing process
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Soul Sisteries.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Soul Sisteries.
We are Donna and Diana sittinghere together just really
hanging out today, wanting tochat about what got us here and
why we started this podcast inthe first place.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I know so cool to have this opportunity to talk
with you here and to share thatout.
And, of course, we've got ourpal Kirk here with us too, who's
maybe with us a little bit.
Yeah, and help us.
Yeah, because as we're talkingwe're like, well, we know each
other's stories and we have tomake sure that we're not just
sitting here under assumptionsthat the whole world knows our
(00:44):
stories.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
They soon will.
They soon will.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You're awesome, You're awesome.
So yay, here we are Doing thething.
Can you believe it, sis?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We are doing the thing, but from opposite coasts,
which is an interesting thing,because we, I think, started
talking about this so long agowhen we were only 20 minutes
from each other, not 3,000 milesapart.
So it's a little differentthing, but certainly, soul
sisters are forever, right, soulsisters are forever.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I mean, apart from a couple little journeys where we
lived at some distance for ashort amount of time, we've
always been like either sharingthe same room for many years or
like 20 minutes from each other.
So we've been way in eachother's lives forever, and it's
(01:42):
so weird to be on oppositecoasts now.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, but I think it's great that it gives you
guys the opportunity knowing youknow.
Obviously, dawn, I've known youa lot longer than I've known
Diana, but you have anadventurous spirit and heart and
you love traveling and I thinkit is kind of great.
I've noticed that in my life Itravel a lot for work but I have
friends that have moved awayand I actually spend more time
(02:09):
with them when they live on anopposite coast or whatever,
because it's more purposeful ifthat makes sense, Like it's
amazing the number of friendsthat live 20 minutes from you,
but unless there's like aspecial event or something, you
don't necessarily spend thattime.
So I think it's good for youguys at this point, especially
being a part of this journey, tohave those different
(02:29):
perspectives but to also giveyou that purposeful reason to go
and visit each other.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well, that's true, and then when we do, I go and I
stay in her house, so we'retogether all the time.
It's not just let's grab somelunch.
So here we are with theculmination.
Not a culmination, it's a.
It's a next chapter in thisvery long journey that started
(02:55):
way back in the day in Anaheim,california, where two little
girls were born into a familywith a bunch of other siblings
and a big world that we alwaysjust kind of found our way to
each other with a really greatfriendship among all these other
(03:16):
siblings as well.
I mean, you were always veryspecial in my heart.
My baby sister and I kind oflike pulled you in as my own.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
But I'm thinking you mentioned Anaheim, california,
and I'm picturing.
You know we were alwaysentertaining each other in one
way or another, right From ourMiss America pageants in the
living room to our gymnasticsroutines in the backyard, our
crocodile rock dance recital.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
I hope we can find some of that on video or audio,
because producer Kirk here mightwant to insert a little of that
into a special bonus episode.
I would love to see the MissAmerica pageant for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Oh my gosh.
Well, this is the thing aboutour childhoods.
So we are a very creativefamily across the board and we
were super imaginative in ourplay and there were a great many
of us and our elder sisters onein particular was well,
actually both were really goodat pulling together these
projects, these things that wewould do collectively, that we
(04:21):
would do collectively and we'dhave, you know, neighbor kids
come and watch or participate.
So we put on many a show wherewe created the scenes out of.
There was an appliance storearound the corner from us and we
would go and get the bigrefrigerator boxes out back and
we'd drag them home and thenwe'd cut them open and we'd
color on them and make our sets.
And then our eldest sister, shewould write the script.
(04:44):
And I can remember us doingshows where we were multiple
characters in the exact samescene.
You just switch who you were inthat exact same scene.
Or we did the Miss Universepageants and we would get our
international costume on, or wewould play store and clothing
(05:06):
store where one sister wouldmake these clothes displays
pinned to the walls of a bedroomand we would go shopping at the
store.
So our world, that's what wegrew up in and with Always.
You know, you have an idea, youmake it happen.
And here we are, let's do apodcast.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
We'll make it happen idea, you make it happen.
And here we are, let's do apodcast, make it happen.
And I've tried to think of howlong ago we started.
I mean, maybe when we firststarted hearing of podcasts many
years ago, like, oh, what wouldwe do if we had a podcast,
right?
And so I think it was somethingthat was always in our minds,
you know, kind of like, oh,let's have our own Oprah Winfrey
show.
You know, we could be up thereand have our own guests and host
(05:46):
our own show.
I think that was years ago.
But then, you know, in morerecent years, with life
progression, life happening, Ithink, you know, kind of got us
filtered down to the idea thatwe really wanted to move forward
, Right to the idea that wereally wanted to move forward.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Right, it became very clear that this is where we're
being directed and one thingjust fell into the other.
It just was so easy.
In fact, I think we're kind ofblown away by how easy and how
quick ultimately it was.
So we felt really directed todo this.
Yeah, we've always had thingsto say.
We knew we had things to talkabout.
(06:24):
Yeah, we've always had thingsto say.
We knew we had things to talkabout and perspectives.
But what that passion is thatwe were really drawn to.
Yeah, life took care of thatone huh.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah.
So maybe, sis, maybe this iswhen we kind of share why this,
why are we doing Soul Sisteriesand what is the idea behind this
hope through that we reallywanted to talk about?
So I'm going to go to you first, because you're my older sister
, I'll let you share.
(06:55):
Baby, what would you like toshare with everybody about, kind
of what got you to this point,about?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
kind of what got you to this point.
Yeah, it's so interestingbecause I do feel like the work
that I'm doing today is aculmination.
It just everything has cometogether and led me to that
point and where I have always inmy life had a lot of fears
about, oh, am I good enough, canI, should I?
You know, this just is afeeling of oh yeah, that's right
(07:27):
, I know this and this is what Ido.
I hope that makes sense.
But yeah, so this journey, soulSisteries, there's a spiritual
basis here, right?
So we were both raised in a lotof religion and neither one of
us is deep in religion anymore,but that spiritual journey has
(07:49):
always been really strong for me, and a piece of that is because
always in my life, as long as Ican remember, I've sort of seen
things and known things thatwere outside of the physical
realm and I was really, reallyscared.
(08:10):
As a kid I was really terrifiedof what that was.
There was a lot of stuff in theworld and a lot of stuff in our
particular religion thatsuggested there was some
darkness around that, and as Igot older, I learned some things
about not dark at all.
There is intuition and there isour spiritual selves and there
(08:32):
are different kinds ofconnections, and all this is
long and deep and I don't needto get into the weeds of all of
that.
But I then started doing somemore studying and some more
learning about what that was andexpanding and of course, there
were things along the way,things along my journey, that
opened all of that up and thingsthat I could look at now if I
(08:52):
look back and go.
Okay, well, those were traumasalong the way and they were.
They were, but there wassomething else that was made of
them and there was an expansionthat I had in a different place
that I went.
So I've talked very openly andfreely.
When I was very young, I wassexually abused and that created
(09:13):
a dynamic within me where Ilearned to go beyond my body,
beyond myself, and reach outwardand build some extraordinary
skills that actually then servedme as I went on and, trust me,
I've done massive healing aroundthose wounds and I mean that
(09:34):
hardcore and was a long journeyand that work has been done and
there's stuff, of course, that'songoing.
And then, as I got older andthen you know my story had the.
You know I was married youngand I had infertility issues and
that was a thing.
But then as soon as our babywas born, that hubby took off
within weeks of that, of our, ofour child's birth, and just a
(09:56):
big flip and switch and it was amassive loss for me, obviously,
but it was a huge grief.
But that grief also escalatedand expanded my journey and my
awareness, my depth ofcompassion, my understanding, my
releasing of fear, my steppingin more deeply into who I am.
And then, following thatjourney with my baby right as a
(10:21):
single mom, and then moving backhome where you and your
wonderful future husband were,with our mama and my son
becoming he was so close to youand to your fella and, like he
became David, became my Kenny'snumber one guy, right.
(10:45):
And so then we fast forwardagain and I'm remarried and I've
got another baby throughadoption, which that is a whole
glorious journey and I'd lovesomeday for us to talk about
that journey of adoption and thesoul connections around all of
that.
And then, you know, five and ahalf years ago, as you well know
(11:05):
, my beautiful Kenny suddenlygone in an auto accident and
that, oh, man, man, yeah.
So much to say there.
But then followed eight monthslater by the loss of your
beautiful husband and the two ofthem now in spirit and with
(11:25):
whom we are so stronglyconnected.
But, wow, what a journey.
And all of that then finallytipped me over the edge of not
only am I aware and I can seethings and feel things and
understand things, but I need todo something intentional around
that.
I need to be intentional inthat work and I need to do that
in support of others and helpingothers in their grief journey.
(11:48):
This is a whole lot of talkingI'm doing and I need to wrap it
up, but it's a lot of story.
But I want to say, out of allof this, these massive traumas
and these are some major andsignificant traumas there has
been an incredible expansionthat I have felt within me, a
different kind of awareness anda compulsion to be fully present
(12:14):
and of service to others intheir grief journeys in
particular, and their awarenessthat we are so much more than
what we see at the surface.
That's my experience and that'swhat I like to share, and also
that grief is a thing to talkabout because it is so common,
so much a part of our humanjourney.
(12:34):
And enough with this silenceand this awkwardness and this
weirdness that we have aroundthis very real, very common,
very profound experience.
So yeah, that's it in a reallylarge nutshell.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
So that's a big nut, sis.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, I'm a big nut.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
So you know, it's interesting right being raised
in the same family, of course,one of five kids, later one of
12 kids, so that our experiencescould be very different.
I mean, there's clearly overlap,but our worlds are very
different, even just being, youknow, a few years apart, and I
think my world was probably alittle bit more sheltered
(13:20):
because I was the baby in thefamily you know, for so many
years, and I had, you, for sure,you know, right by my side and
and and my mom and you knowpeople looking out for me in a
different world.
I guess then maybe some peopleget looked out out, for I, for
(13:40):
some reason, have just alwaysbeen the one that wanted to
volunteer and help, whether itwas the kid who fell down on the
playground, the dog who wasrunning around wild in the
street, you know I was going torescue all the kids and all the
animals and all the elderlypeople.
(14:01):
I was volunteering at, you know, senior centers.
I was walking around the cornerto the old retired couple to
have, you know, tea with them inthe afternoon.
I was walking the mailman'sroute so he didn't have to walk
alone to do the route.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
You know I was yeah, well, we're all out searching.
Where is Diana.
Shouldn't she be home by now?
Oh, she's walking home with themailman.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So that is really kind of my world right,
volunteering through high schoolat senior centers.
By the time I was in college Iwas volunteering at Child Help
USA, working with you know,trauma victims.
I was volunteering with youknow all sorts of organizations
just over the years andnaturally fell into doing
counseling and social work as mycareer and I was, you know, I
(14:55):
worked for years with sexualabuse victims and their families
.
I worked for a long time withgrief and loss.
I worked, you know, in theschool settings with you know
kids who were, you know, bulliedand all sorts of things Just
really kind of pulled to helpingin any way I could, just being
(15:17):
of service and pretty much happyin my life.
Things were going well.
I had a partner who I adored,children who were teenagers at
the time that I couldn't getenough of.
You brought up Kenny who, as hisaunt and godmom I don't know if
(15:37):
anybody could be closer to akid who's not their own child,
but he was everything like achild to me and David Absolutely
.
And I had certainly had losseslosing grandparents.
I've lost friends, you know.
Just five or six months beforeKenny passed we lost our
stepfather, and, you know, aftera long illness, but it was, I
(16:01):
think the loss of Kenny in 2019that really kind of, I guess,
opened me up to a different life.
You know, you talked aboutseeing things and knowing things
and you know, kind of with thatconnection across the veil and
(16:21):
that was not something I had andI very much thought that was
something for special people.
You had to be the selected one.
Of course, our religion hadtaught us that growing up, but I
didn't know that all of us canconnect with loved ones who had
passed over.
And I remember my partner and Iat the time both struggling a
(16:43):
lot with the loss of your Kenny,our Kenny, and really wanting
to have that connection too andlike, well, if Donna can do it,
how come we can't do it?
There's got to be a way for usto do it right and both of us
kind of starting on that journeyto figure out this other piece
of life, the life that goes onafter death, I guess.
You know, the life that goes onafter death, I guess.
(17:05):
And it was shocking enough whenwe lost Kenny and then, just a
few months later, to lose Davidalso, both suddenly so many
plans I had, you know, tocontinue raising our children to
leave California, to do thingsdifferently, to have our
retirement, just all of thosethings that were supposed to
(17:27):
happen, right.
And I remember the first nightlosing him and how traumatic
that was and how scary that wasand thinking, how the heck do
you go on for that through this,right, yeah, and then I guess
I'm more analytical than I thinkI am, because then I went to
(17:48):
that thing of, okay, well,statistically I know women
survive loss.
Statistically, I know womenrepartners.
Statistically, I know I'm goingto be able to support myself.
I knew all these thingsstatistically.
And it was probably within twoor three days of my loss that I
just said I can't be the personwho, 10 years from now, is
(18:10):
wondering where my life went, oryou know.
And I think, because I alwayshave believed in the human
capacity to change and to grow,even if somebody tells me it's
not worth helping this person,that there's still a chance that
they can change, and so I'mgoing to do it.
(18:30):
And so I think in that moment Ijust, I guess, made that
decision that I was going to behopeful for myself and hopeful
for anybody else.
And within you know, a coupleof weeks, I had started an
online group because, of course,it was the pandemic and COVID
and things were shut down.
So I started an online groupfor women who had lost their
(18:51):
partners.
It's four and a half years laterand we're still going of
mediumship and death studies andwhat goes on.
You know astrophysics and justeverything else that encompasses
(19:12):
really to me hope, and so youand I talking about hope and
holding out hope for ourselvesalways.
I think this podcast, for me,more than anything, is for us to
get to hear stories of hope yes, for us.
And then the byproduct of thatis that anybody else who wants
to listen also gets to hear thestories.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So you were talking, sis, about how, when David
passed, how you claimed, really,that you were going to be on
that hope journey and that youwere going to stay present.
And I want to share somethingabout that also Two different
times One first, when my firsthusband left and I was a
(19:54):
suddenly new single mom with asix-week-old baby and just like,
wow, what do I do now and howdo I do this?
And I knew I wanted to be herefor him.
But I made a decision that Iwas going to be present because
I didn't want five years to pass, 10 years to pass, and I had no
(20:15):
memory of and no real livedexperience of that time with him
.
That I had to stay present forhim and I did.
I forced myself into it, staypresent for him, and I did.
I forced myself into it Massivegrief.
I'm not saying this was alleasy, but it was a choice.
It was a choice to livepresently and, of course, you
and David were enormouslyhelpful to me through all of
(20:38):
that time.
When you talk about it takes avillage boy did.
I have a village of love whocame in and supported, and the
same was true when Kenny died.
I turned to a lot of child lossgroups and so many of those
groups I kept hearing the storyof.
You know, it's been five yearsand it feels the same.
It's been so and it feels thesame.
Nothing changes.
(20:58):
I thought that can't be my life, that can't be my story.
With my son, people have beengrieving since the beginning of
the time.
That can't be the fallout here.
So what's the difference there?
And the difference?
The hook became this choicethat I am going to live and keep
(21:22):
moving and grieving and thatthis duality does exist.
Both of these things are trueand there are days and moments
and times when I still feel itin my gut, when I still am
dropped to my knees.
I miss him like crazy in thephysical, but also this profound
(21:44):
relationship I have with himnow and how I just so fully know
my kid is living his best life.
Now he really is and we areconnected and that that's true
for everyone.
It's not just I'm not special,I'm not different.
I've just done some work aroundthis.
(22:05):
I had a particular.
I always say it's like singing.
Everybody can sing.
Some people are born with amore exceptional talent for it,
but everybody can do the work tobuild the capacity and so that
it's similar to this.
I was born with a particularinclination, but you, my sister
(22:27):
and I say this all the timewe're born with profound
intuition and you followed pathsto work with that and expand,
and that's still very true.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I'm going to interrupt real quick and I won't
get through this statement,because everybody already knows
that I'm an emotional person,but you both are so special oh
and I know it's hard to acceptthat.
I know it's easy to deflect atfirst, obviously, because it's
sometimes it's overwhelming.
But I wouldn't be here if if itwasn't for you, donna right, if
(23:05):
your son hadn't wanted to learnmore about audio, we never
would have started our podcasttogether, which, in turn, gave
me the experience and gave methe desire and like the
wherewithal to know what a greatplatform to get this out.
And then, when you approach me,it was like, yeah, let's go,
(23:27):
let's do this right now becauseof I know you.
I know how special you are, notjust to me, my whole family and
our whole community.
Like, sorry, of course, I'm theone that's been talking less,
but I'm crying the most rightnow, and you guys are talking
about these things that peoplecan't get through, and you're
(23:49):
talking and you're sharing withour listeners how you got
through it, and that's thereason why I'm here.
So when you brought that up, Iwas.
However, I can help, but I justwill end with say you're both
special.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
To me, my family and many, many, many others in our
community and around, and I knowthat from watching the
interaction, seeing theinteraction, hearing the
interaction and then listeningto this podcast that we put
together right.
I get to edit it and I've saidit in conversations before I
(24:26):
love it because it's therapy forme, it is my opportunity to let
my heaviness go and be thereand be present, because I've had
those moments with my familythat I wasn't present and I've
learned from life and from beingaround people like you and many
(24:52):
of the other people that are inthis community that you know
have that love and empathy.
So I just want to make sure youguys know you're so special.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Thank you, that's very, very sweet and thank you
involved there.
And yes, I know there aremental illnesses and there's
(25:25):
abuses and all of these thingsexist.
There's a whole lot of choiceabout how we are in this world.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, yeah.
And so then that leads me to aquestion, sis, that we often ask
our guests right is kind ofthat hope through, where do you
find hope through?
And I think I have my where Ifind hope, but I'm curious how
you answer that Hope through.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So I think I had a different answer previously, but
right now I'm thinking, no,mine is hope through stories,
shared stories, the shared humanexperience.
I've always been drawn to thatLike how many times have I made
Christmas presents of like,conversation, questions, or I'm
the one at the table who, like,let's ask the question and go
around, which our one sister inparticular can't stand?
(26:18):
No, no, and it's not foreverybody, but that's always
been my thing.
I want to hear people's storiesand I want to connect to their
humanity, to their truth selves.
I want to hear people's storiesand I want to connect to their
humanity, to their true selves,and I want to share that.
One of the reasons I'm drawn totheater, one of the reasons I'm
a writer and one of the reasonsI do this kind of work, is that
you know hope through the sharedstories and hence we've got the
(26:40):
soul sisteries because it'sabout that.
And, as you can hear, I love totalk, but I love to listen too,
and learning from otherpeople's stories is just like
it's such a wow to me.
How about you, sis?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
It's the funny thing because I hear you talking about
stories and I definitely that'sone way that I find hope and I
have to laugh because that's mydissertation is all about
autobiographical memories, whichis, the stories right, the
stories we tell.
So I think that's veryimportant.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Can we jump in right here and say that Kenny read
your dissertation like he wantedto, as a little baby, not a
baby as?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
a little boy as a kid Boy he was like eight, nine
years old reading mydissertation and he didn't
finish the whole thing becauseit's very long, but he got
through at least the firstchapter and asked some great
questions.
So it was very cool to have himread it.
But I think I have two words, Ithink, and I don't know, that I
(27:35):
could choose one, so I'm goingto have to say both.
But I think it's hope throughaction and hope through
connection, and for me those gotogether because it's the
connecting through action, Iguess, is really it, and that is
always in life.
I do something, I don't justthink about it, and I might not
(27:57):
do it the best, I might not bethe best at it, but if I get an
idea I'm going to do it, put iton paper and do it, whether it's
ice skating lessons, guitarlessons, piano lessons, hiking,
running a marathon, whatever itis.
Just throw it at me.
I'm like, yeah, that sounds fun, let's try it at least once.
So it's definitely action, butit's connecting through action,
(28:19):
because, even as I say that Idid a marathon once I don't know
I'll ever do it again but I didit with team and training for
the Leukemia Society.
So I did it to raise money andconnect with others and it was
this group thing that we did.
It's hope through.
You know my grief.
And I started a widow's group.
Like I said, we're stillrunning, four and a half years
later.
(28:39):
Kind of same thing.
I.
I saw women on a page, on aFacebook page for widows, and it
was the first night and Iremember seeing somebody's
comment that their partner haddied 17 years ago and it still
feels as though it was yesterday, had died 17 years ago and it
still feels as though it wasyesterday.
And I thought, oh, that can'tbe me, I can't go into old age
(29:07):
feeling how this feels tonight.
And so it was that consciousdecision to act connect with
women really all around theworld.
When we started we had peoplein Australia, but today it's all
around the country, a group ofus coming together for hope in
action.
And it's through our connection.
It's that soul connectionreally.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
And what you're talking about here too is choice
.
You'd make a decision and youmove forward.
Okay, so this has always beenyour thing.
I can say as your older sisterand one who's watched you all
along yeah, you've always beenamazing at.
I think I want to learnwhatever, and you just do it.
You take the class and you doit.
It's always so amazing and youseem to naturally have a certain
(29:47):
kind of confidence.
But I think it's I don't evenknow that it's confidence just a
willingness to try and fail.
That was my hang up.
I had and I've learned as aneducator because I've lived many
years as a teacher as well I'velearned as an educator there's
a certain mindset and like whatwe call the gifted kid or
whatever, whatever label you puton there where I'm only going
(30:10):
to do the thing that I canimmediately be fabulous at and
I'm not going to try the thingthat I'm not so sure about.
And that was definitely my MO.
And so I stayed small and quietabout a lot of things because I
wasn't instantly stellar atthem.
And Pat, the little girl I oncewas on the back right now and
(30:30):
say there's a lot of things thatshe really kicked ass at Kick
butt.
Maybe I should say thingsdifferently.
I don't know Editing Kirkediting, so there's of things
that she really kicked ass atKick butt.
Maybe I should say thingsdifferently.
I don't know Editing Kirkediting.
So there's some things that shereally was great at and did
beautifully, but there's so muchI didn't try.
So part of what my story, myjourney, has led me to, is a
(30:52):
place where I had to put it alldown and I had to stop caring
about what somebody else thinksand am I good enough and can I
do, or whatever, because itreally none of that really
mattered anymore.
And so I stepped into a spacewhere I could choose confidence.
(31:13):
And I've discovered that that'sso for me.
I choose confidence and I do it.
So the first time when Istarted doing readings for
people and it was very scary andwho am I?
Who am I to think I can do thisand what and how and all of
that stuff, and how dare I Allof that?
But I have gotten affirmed andvalidated again and again and
(31:36):
again that this is helpful andsupportive to others and it is
making a difference.
And then, of course, my naturalconfidence has built over time
through that journey and itfeels very different now.
I hope I'm making sense here.
I'm so long-winded.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
I think you're telling your story, though.
I think that's interestingthough, because I was not the
best.
I think of us young kids and Ithink of you as somebody who
always won everything you did,and it's interesting to hear you
say that, because you did thethings that you were good at,
and so I didn't do sportsbecause I wasn't the top.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
So I did a little bit of sports, but you know, not
really.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I didn't grow up seeing you do things that you
weren't going to be good at,because you didn't do those
things where I was not reallythe best at anything.
But I was going to have fun atwhatever I was going to do.
And that's not to say I had theconfidence, because I certainly
didn't have all the confidencewhen I was little, but as I got
older it was one of those things.
(32:43):
Like you know, life is short,especially the last five years.
I know life is short.
Do whatever the heck you want,whether you fall on your face or
not, because you know whatyou're going to get up and that
embarrassment's going to pass,but at least you're going to
have tried it right.
And instead of saying 10 yearsfrom now, gosh, I wish I tried
playing the guitar or gosh, Iwish I went on that hike across
(33:07):
whatever trail you know, atleast to be able to say I did it
.
And I will say, along with thisstory of hope, it absolutely
sucks losing Kenny and David.
There's not a day that goes bythat I wouldn't change at all
and bring them back.
I mean, I would love to havethem right here, but even with
them where they are now, thatgives me so much hope and I
(33:32):
always just imagine myself like,oh, I'm going to go jump off a
cliff.
How crazy are you?
Oh well, you know what?
David and Kenny are here.
They're gonna make sure I'mokay and I don't mean literally
jumping off a cliff, because I'mnot a daredevil, but whatever I
wanna do, I just feel likesomebody's got my back and
that's just so hopeful.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I guess, yeah, it absolutely is, it absolutely is.
I guess, yeah, it absolutely is, it absolutely is.
I love everything you're saying, sis, and I want to say one
thing also along the lines ofwhat you just said.
You talked about how you wouldchange it in a second and I've
thought about that a lot.
There came a certain pointbecause I get that I mean I'm
with you in, like oh my God,would I give anything to be able
(34:11):
to just big old hug and like tosmell him.
You know what I mean.
Like each of your children hasa particular scent, right, you
can pick that out anywhere.
And just to smell him and tohear his laugh, to hear his keys
in the door, like these arethings like, oh God, I would
just give anything for that.
And yet I'm also aware that ifI was really given the choice
(34:33):
and if I was asked, you knowthat if I was really given the
choice and if I was asked, youknow, would I bring him back if
I could and you know I had Icould do that.
I know, down to my toes, I knowand oof, I feel this through my
body as I say it.
I know my answer would be no,because I know he is, as I said,
living his best life now.
(34:54):
He is whole, perfect andcomplete, he is happy.
He is happy and as his mom,that's all I want for him.
Right, that's what I want forhim.
So that first, and I promiseanyone listening, yes, it still
kills, and there are things thatI think about and like that his
(35:15):
brother doesn't have him here.
Oh, I still kills, and thereare things that I think about
and like that his brotherdoesn't have him here.
Oh, I hate that.
All of the cousins who've losthim, his friends who you know,
all of that stuff does hurt.
It's not just like, oh,everything's fine, my kid died
and I'm great, but I am good andI have joy and I have a full
and rich life.
That is what's real.
And also, my son died and thatsucked and still sucks and is
(35:39):
also beautiful.
And I know, no, sis, I know youknow.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
It's a crazy thing and I don't know.
I think I kind of feel the same, losing a partner.
More than anything, I don'tlike our kids to not have their
dad.
That is the worst, you know.
It was, yeah, losing what wecall the brother-cousin right,
(36:05):
they were more than cousins, itwas the brother-cousin and then
losing their dad also, yeah, andlife goes on and you can have a
beautiful full life.
Which then leads me to the nextI'm asking.
The question, sis, is you know,do you find hope, do you create
hope?
(36:25):
Does it just show up at yourdoorstep?
And I think that we both kindof shared that we create it, we
make it.
It's not like, oh, I see afour-leaf clover and I'm like,
okay, here's hope.
We actively, actively createthe hope for ourselves and for
others, I think.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I agree, and we're really intentional about that
and that's how we landed on ourhope through tagline also.
Because it's hope through whatthere's some action, there's
some perspective.
Because it's hope through whatthere's some action, there's
some perspective, there's somesomething that then generates
the hope.
It doesn't just happen.
The same way I talked aboutconfidence.
It's like oh, I'm so hopeful, Ijust am filled with hope.
(37:07):
No, there's work to be donehere, there's choice around it,
and there are times when Idefinitely can't find it and I
turn to you and I turn to otherswho helped me with my
perspective and I think same.
I mean, we for sure both gothrough our times of well, this
all sucks and I don't want anypart of this.
(37:29):
We go through that.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
For sure.
Pity parties are fun.
You need to have that, so right.
So I mean, I do throw myself apity party and that it's like,
okay, time's up.
I got to get back to the way Iwant to live my life, you know,
and I don't want to live my lifein grief and knowing that both
of those guys are doing whateverthe heck they want to do and
(37:53):
seeing the world.
And you know, yay that they getto live their best lives.
And while I'm here, I'm goingto live my best life.
So, you know, I don't alwaysknow what that's going to look
like from day to day, but I amgoing to try to live that.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
So but I think you guys had both said you're going
to try and you do it withpurpose and so many people out
there don't.
And I mean, I'm not trying totrivialize anything, but people
lose their minds when theirsports team doesn't win or you
know, just something trivialhappens, right.
I was one of those guys thatwould be like, oh my gosh, this
(38:27):
team didn't win and it's allover, and it's frigging sports,
it's a you know, or it's my badband didn't play that song I
wanted to hear, or I got a flattire or just all these things
that we get faced with everysingle day.
Yeah, and had your educationand had your support group to be
(38:58):
purposeful in that decision andand to do not only the things
that you do in your professionallives and your personal lives.
But now here you are, out there, you're telling the world your
story and you don't have to dothat, and that's not an easy
thing to do at all.
To put yourself out there.
I mean, every day, before wewalk out the door, what we're
looking, look okay.
Is this?
Does this outfit look okay?
Am I presenting myself Well?
(39:19):
Is my hair done?
You know, you, you, you, youconcern yourself sometimes about
that presentation out there.
But I, I feel, and I and I'vegone through some trend you know
transformations in my olderdays as well in that in you go
through loss and you go throughthings that were important to
you, and the purposefulness tome is the hope through for both
(39:43):
of you.
You said, you said it Diane,the, the, the action, and.
And then you told the story inthe beginning about pulling
cardboard boxes from from thestore and and making sets, and
it sounds like you've alwaysbeen doing and that the doing is
that purpose and what gives youand thank goodness and thank
(40:06):
any and all the powers andreligions and deities and
whatever that are out there thatyou have been focused enough to
be able to say, yep, it sucks.
And I'm moving on and and I Ican say just from my small
purview, I know many, many, many, many people personally and I
(40:27):
think, many people through this,you know this platform, that
are gaining from thatperspective and that example and
, um, I'm just thankful to be apart of it and I'm thankful that
you guys, um, find that purposeevery day.
But you also, you alsounderstand the grief and you
(40:49):
embrace it in the sense that youknow it's real and uh, you're
not trying to deny it because somany people do, and I think
that's why they hold on for 17years is because they can't
accept the reality of of whathappens.
But every day we go throughsome type of some type of
(41:09):
transition that could changeeverything right.
The flat tire you missed aphone call, you, you, you know,
check didn't come through.
Whatever it is, and thepurposefulness, I think, is an
amazing message that you'resharing with the world, an
amazing message.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Thank you, I hope so, that's, I mean, that is our
intention.
That is our intention and weboth feel, I know, very
compelled and pushed forward tojust keep talking, keep sharing,
keep bringing people together,keep speaking on these things
that we find there's just somuch commonality and so much.
(41:50):
I thought of myself in the pastas being a sensitive and
compassionate person, but Idiscovered in time that there
was just a whole lot that Ididn't know until I knew, and I
didn't know these things.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah, you know, sis, that's exactly it.
You know, I always feel likeI've been compassionate in my
life, that I showed up forpeople in my life.
I became a therapist, I didsocial work, I volunteered.
I go where people need me, whenthey call me, and then I
experienced these losses, oneright after the other, and I
(42:33):
think I got it.
I got it so much more than Iever thought I got it before.
And I remember thinking, oh mygosh, I have to call every
single client, every singlefriend, that maybe I didn't do
enough for that, maybe I didn'tquite get it.
But you know, I did what I knewto do until I knew better right
(43:00):
, and now I think I show up in adifferent way now.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, totally, you know.
Sometimes with other parentswho have lost kids we talk about
you know.
I hope other people don't everknow.
I know you feel the same.
I hope people don't know thisreality, but there's stuff you'd
like it.
I just said, you can't knowuntil you know, and once you're
(43:26):
open to that, it's it's justthis whole world.
And then you realize also thatthere's so many people who do
know and who do sit in this samespace.
And, god, I wish we all talkedabout it more with each other.
It's such a normal andfundamental part of what it is
to be human, to be alive, tohave these kinds of losses.
(43:48):
When you love, you also haveloss.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
And I think that's it's so often I remember, I mean
for weeks after losing mypartner, but then also years
after, where people don't wantto talk about something and
they'll actually say well, Idon't want to make you cry, or I
have my good days and my baddays, so you sharing something
does not make me feel any worse.
In fact, it's even better,because to hear Kenny and David
(44:24):
and you know even dad and papaand to hear those names
continually being said, thatpeople remember and that's how
we live on, right, that's how welive on people remember and
that's how we live on, right,that's how we live on.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
That is one of the most profound gifts I think that
you can give someone who haslost someone is to speak their
name, to mention them, tomention a memory that you have,
just a simple little thing.
It goes so far and so long.
That's one of the pains peoplehave, right, as time goes on and
they feel that everybody'sforgotten their loved one
because they're not speakingtheir names in the same way To
(45:05):
keep them part of theconversation.
It doesn't have to be huge,just a small mention.
Oh my gosh, that is powerful,oh my gosh, that is powerful.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah, and if, if they don't know the loved one to say
, well, tell me about so and so,or what's your favorite memory
about so and so?
Or you know, we're coming infilming this around the holidays
, you know, and it's like whatis their favorite holiday cookie
?
What was their favorite youknow gift that they ever
(45:35):
received?
I don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Or the favorite gift that you ever got from them.
You're exactly right, sis.
That is just such good stuffand a reminder to me right at
the second that I need to domore of that and be really
conscious.
That's really, when all is saidand done.
It's this, these messages oflove and hope and sharing that
with one another.
Really that is all that mattersin this crazy life.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Sure, and, and I will say now just kind of looking at
how long we've been talking,we've been talking for a little
while and I know we haven'tasked the questions we normally
ask of guests that come onto theshow.
We haven't kind of gone throughour little rapid fire
questioning, but I think maybewe've shared enough just to kind
(46:24):
of give the listeners kind ofsome, I guess, some background
on us, have a little bit ofinformation on us, and we can
certainly share more of ourstories and more of what we're
doing and what got us here later.
But I think maybe we wrap upnow.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (46:42):
I think absolutely.
We do wrap up.
This is enough, and thank youto anyone who is still listening
and sharing our stories with us.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
That's our children.
I may make them listen at somepoint with us.
It's our children, I you knowmay make them listen at some
point.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
For sure.
Well, thank you everyone, and,uh boy, our hearts are with you
wherever you are in yourjourneys and, um, you know, we
hope that all of this helps tosupport your, your hope in your
world as well, and we want toshare in that with you.
So, thank you, thank you, thankyou so much.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, thanks everybody.
Thanks for being here againtoday.
Thanks for joining us today onSoul Sisteries.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
And thanks for sharing stories with us.
We'd love to hear your storiesas well and keep the
conversation going, absolutelykeeping the hope going.
So we're really hopeful thatyou'll connect with our guests
as well, who have great storiesto share.
Go ahead and follow them invarious social media platforms
or live venues, wherever it isthat they're performing and
(47:51):
sharing what they do.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
We would love to have you follow us on all of our
social media platforms,subscribe and rate, as that will
help us get our message of hopeout to others.
Thanks for listening to Soul.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Sisteries.
Welcome to Soul Sisteries.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Soul Sisteries.
We are Donna and Diana sittinghere together just really
hanging out today, wanting tochat about what got us here and
why we started this podcast inthe first place.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I know so cool to have this opportunity to talk
with you here and to share thatout.
And, of course, we've got ourpal Kirk here with us too, who's
maybe with us a little bit.
Yeah, and help us.
Yeah, because as we're talkingwe're like, well, we know each
other's stories and we have tomake sure that we're not just
sitting here under assumptionsthat the whole world knows our
(00:44):
stories.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
They soon will.
They soon will.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You're awesome, You're awesome.
So yay, here we are Doing thething.
Can you believe it, sis?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We are doing the thing, but from opposite coasts,
which is an interesting thing,because we, I think, started
talking about this so long agowhen we were only 20 minutes
from each other, not 3,000 milesapart.
So it's a little differentthing, but certainly, soul
sisters are forever, right, soulsisters are forever.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I mean, apart from a couple little journeys where we
lived at some distance for ashort amount of time, we've
always been like either sharingthe same room for many years or
like 20 minutes from each other.
So we've been way in eachother's lives forever, and it's
(01:42):
so weird to be on oppositecoasts now.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, but I think it's great that it gives you
guys the opportunity knowing youknow.
Obviously, dawn, I've known youa lot longer than I've known
Diana, but you have anadventurous spirit and heart and
you love traveling and I thinkit is kind of great.
I've noticed that in my life Itravel a lot for work but I have
friends that have moved awayand I actually spend more time
(02:09):
with them when they live on anopposite coast or whatever,
because it's more purposeful ifthat makes sense, Like it's
amazing the number of friendsthat live 20 minutes from you,
but unless there's like aspecial event or something, you
don't necessarily spend thattime.
So I think it's good for youguys at this point, especially
being a part of this journey, tohave those different
(02:29):
perspectives but to also giveyou that purposeful reason to go
and visit each other.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well, that's true, and then when we do, I go and I
stay in her house, so we'retogether all the time.
It's not just let's grab somelunch.
So here we are with theculmination.
Not a culmination, it's a.
It's a next chapter in thisvery long journey that started
(02:55):
way back in the day in Anaheim,california, where two little
girls were born into a familywith a bunch of other siblings
and a big world that we alwaysjust kind of found our way to
each other with a really greatfriendship among all these other
(03:16):
siblings as well.
I mean, you were always veryspecial in my heart.
My baby sister and I kind oflike pulled you in as my own.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
But I'm thinking you mentioned Anaheim, california,
and I'm picturing.
You know we were alwaysentertaining each other in one
way or another, right From ourMiss America pageants in the
living room to our gymnasticsroutines in the backyard, our
crocodile rock dance recital.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
I hope we can find some of that on video or audio,
because producer Kirk here mightwant to insert a little of that
into a special bonus episode.
I would love to see the MissAmerica pageant for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Oh my gosh.
Well, this is the thing aboutour childhoods.
So we are a very creativefamily across the board and we
were super imaginative in ourplay and there were a great many
of us and our elder sisters onein particular was well,
actually both were really goodat pulling together these
projects, these things that wewould do collectively, that we
(04:21):
would do collectively and we'dhave, you know, neighbor kids
come and watch or participate.
So we put on many a show wherewe created the scenes out of.
There was an appliance storearound the corner from us and we
would go and get the bigrefrigerator boxes out back and
we'd drag them home and thenwe'd cut them open and we'd
color on them and make our sets.
And then our eldest sister, shewould write the script.
(04:44):
And I can remember us doingshows where we were multiple
characters in the exact samescene.
You just switch who you were inthat exact same scene.
Or we did the Miss Universepageants and we would get our
international costume on, or wewould play store and clothing
(05:06):
store where one sister wouldmake these clothes displays
pinned to the walls of a bedroomand we would go shopping at the
store.
So our world, that's what wegrew up in and with Always.
You know, you have an idea, youmake it happen.
And here we are, let's do apodcast.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
We'll make it happen idea, you make it happen.
And here we are, let's do apodcast, make it happen.
And I've tried to think of howlong ago we started.
I mean, maybe when we firststarted hearing of podcasts many
years ago, like, oh, what wouldwe do if we had a podcast,
right?
And so I think it was somethingthat was always in our minds,
you know, kind of like, oh,let's have our own Oprah Winfrey
show.
You know, we could be up thereand have our own guests and host
(05:46):
our own show.
I think that was years ago.
But then, you know, in morerecent years, with life
progression, life happening, Ithink, you know, kind of got us
filtered down to the idea thatwe really wanted to move forward
, Right to the idea that wereally wanted to move forward.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Right, it became very clear that this is where we're
being directed and one thingjust fell into the other.
It just was so easy.
In fact, I think we're kind ofblown away by how easy and how
quick ultimately it was.
So we felt really directed todo this.
Yeah, we've always had thingsto say.
We knew we had things to talkabout.
(06:24):
Yeah, we've always had thingsto say.
We knew we had things to talkabout and perspectives.
But what that passion is thatwe were really drawn to.
Yeah, life took care of thatone huh.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah.
So maybe, sis, maybe this iswhen we kind of share why this,
why are we doing Soul Sisteriesand what is the idea behind this
hope through that we reallywanted to talk about?
So I'm going to go to you first, because you're my older sister
, I'll let you share.
(06:55):
Baby, what would you like toshare with everybody about, kind
of what got you to this point,about?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
kind of what got you to this point.
Yeah, it's so interestingbecause I do feel like the work
that I'm doing today is aculmination.
It just everything has cometogether and led me to that
point and where I have always inmy life had a lot of fears
about, oh, am I good enough, canI, should I?
You know, this just is afeeling of oh yeah, that's right
(07:27):
, I know this and this is what Ido.
I hope that makes sense.
But yeah, so this journey, soulSisteries, there's a spiritual
basis here, right?
So we were both raised in a lotof religion and neither one of
us is deep in religion anymore,but that spiritual journey has
(07:49):
always been really strong for me, and a piece of that is because
always in my life, as long as Ican remember, I've sort of seen
things and known things thatwere outside of the physical
realm and I was really, reallyscared.
(08:10):
As a kid I was really terrifiedof what that was.
There was a lot of stuff in theworld and a lot of stuff in our
particular religion thatsuggested there was some
darkness around that, and as Igot older, I learned some things
about not dark at all.
There is intuition and there isour spiritual selves and there
(08:32):
are different kinds ofconnections, and all this is
long and deep and I don't needto get into the weeds of all of
that.
But I then started doing somemore studying and some more
learning about what that was andexpanding and of course, there
were things along the way,things along my journey, that
opened all of that up and thingsthat I could look at now if I
(08:52):
look back and go.
Okay, well, those were traumasalong the way and they were.
They were, but there wassomething else that was made of
them and there was an expansionthat I had in a different place
that I went.
So I've talked very openly andfreely.
When I was very young, I wassexually abused and that created
(09:13):
a dynamic within me where Ilearned to go beyond my body,
beyond myself, and reach outwardand build some extraordinary
skills that actually then servedme as I went on and, trust me,
I've done massive healing aroundthose wounds and I mean that
(09:34):
hardcore and was a long journeyand that work has been done and
there's stuff, of course, that'songoing.
And then, as I got older andthen you know my story had the.
You know I was married youngand I had infertility issues and
that was a thing.
But then as soon as our babywas born, that hubby took off
within weeks of that, of our, ofour child's birth, and just a
(09:56):
big flip and switch and it was amassive loss for me, obviously,
but it was a huge grief.
But that grief also escalatedand expanded my journey and my
awareness, my depth ofcompassion, my understanding, my
releasing of fear, my steppingin more deeply into who I am.
And then, following thatjourney with my baby right as a
(10:21):
single mom, and then moving backhome where you and your
wonderful future husband were,with our mama and my son
becoming he was so close to youand to your fella and, like he
became David, became my Kenny'snumber one guy, right.
(10:45):
And so then we fast forwardagain and I'm remarried and I've
got another baby throughadoption, which that is a whole
glorious journey and I'd lovesomeday for us to talk about
that journey of adoption and thesoul connections around all of
that.
And then, you know, five and ahalf years ago, as you well know
(11:05):
, my beautiful Kenny suddenlygone in an auto accident and
that, oh, man, man, yeah.
So much to say there.
But then followed eight monthslater by the loss of your
beautiful husband and the two ofthem now in spirit and with
(11:25):
whom we are so stronglyconnected.
But, wow, what a journey.
And all of that then finallytipped me over the edge of not
only am I aware and I can seethings and feel things and
understand things, but I need todo something intentional around
that.
I need to be intentional inthat work and I need to do that
in support of others and helpingothers in their grief journey.
(11:48):
This is a whole lot of talkingI'm doing and I need to wrap it
up, but it's a lot of story.
But I want to say, out of allof this, these massive traumas
and these are some major andsignificant traumas there has
been an incredible expansionthat I have felt within me, a
different kind of awareness anda compulsion to be fully present
(12:14):
and of service to others intheir grief journeys in
particular, and their awarenessthat we are so much more than
what we see at the surface.
That's my experience and that'swhat I like to share, and also
that grief is a thing to talkabout because it is so common,
so much a part of our humanjourney.
(12:34):
And enough with this silenceand this awkwardness and this
weirdness that we have aroundthis very real, very common,
very profound experience.
So yeah, that's it in a reallylarge nutshell.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
So that's a big nut, sis.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, I'm a big nut.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
So you know, it's interesting right being raised
in the same family, of course,one of five kids, later one of
12 kids, so that our experiencescould be very different.
I mean, there's clearly overlap,but our worlds are very
different, even just being, youknow, a few years apart, and I
think my world was probably alittle bit more sheltered
(13:20):
because I was the baby in thefamily you know, for so many
years, and I had, you, for sure,you know, right by my side and
and and my mom and you knowpeople looking out for me in a
different world.
I guess then maybe some peopleget looked out out, for I, for
(13:40):
some reason, have just alwaysbeen the one that wanted to
volunteer and help, whether itwas the kid who fell down on the
playground, the dog who wasrunning around wild in the
street, you know I was going torescue all the kids and all the
animals and all the elderlypeople.
(14:01):
I was volunteering at, you know, senior centers.
I was walking around the cornerto the old retired couple to
have, you know, tea with them inthe afternoon.
I was walking the mailman'sroute so he didn't have to walk
alone to do the route.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
You know I was yeah, well, we're all out searching.
Where is Diana.
Shouldn't she be home by now?
Oh, she's walking home with themailman.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So that is really kind of my world right,
volunteering through high schoolat senior centers.
By the time I was in college Iwas volunteering at Child Help
USA, working with you know,trauma victims.
I was volunteering with youknow all sorts of organizations
just over the years andnaturally fell into doing
counseling and social work as mycareer and I was, you know, I
(14:55):
worked for years with sexualabuse victims and their families
.
I worked for a long time withgrief and loss.
I worked, you know, in theschool settings with you know
kids who were, you know, bulliedand all sorts of things Just
really kind of pulled to helpingin any way I could, just being
(15:17):
of service and pretty much happyin my life.
Things were going well.
I had a partner who I adored,children who were teenagers at
the time that I couldn't getenough of.
You brought up Kenny who, as hisaunt and godmom I don't know if
(15:37):
anybody could be closer to akid who's not their own child,
but he was everything like achild to me and David Absolutely
.
And I had certainly had losseslosing grandparents.
I've lost friends, you know.
Just five or six months beforeKenny passed we lost our
stepfather, and, you know, aftera long illness, but it was, I
(16:01):
think the loss of Kenny in 2019that really kind of, I guess,
opened me up to a different life.
You know, you talked aboutseeing things and knowing things
and you know, kind of with thatconnection across the veil and
(16:21):
that was not something I had andI very much thought that was
something for special people.
You had to be the selected one.
Of course, our religion hadtaught us that growing up, but I
didn't know that all of us canconnect with loved ones who had
passed over.
And I remember my partner and Iat the time both struggling a
(16:43):
lot with the loss of your Kenny,our Kenny, and really wanting
to have that connection too andlike, well, if Donna can do it,
how come we can't do it?
There's got to be a way for usto do it right and both of us
kind of starting on that journeyto figure out this other piece
of life, the life that goes onafter death, I guess.
You know, the life that goes onafter death, I guess.
(17:05):
And it was shocking enough whenwe lost Kenny and then, just a
few months later, to lose Davidalso, both suddenly so many
plans I had, you know, tocontinue raising our children to
leave California, to do thingsdifferently, to have our
retirement, just all of thosethings that were supposed to
(17:27):
happen, right.
And I remember the first nightlosing him and how traumatic
that was and how scary that wasand thinking, how the heck do
you go on for that through this,right, yeah, and then I guess
I'm more analytical than I thinkI am, because then I went to
(17:48):
that thing of, okay, well,statistically I know women
survive loss.
Statistically, I know womenrepartners.
Statistically, I know I'm goingto be able to support myself.
I knew all these thingsstatistically.
And it was probably within twoor three days of my loss that I
just said I can't be the personwho, 10 years from now, is
(18:10):
wondering where my life went, oryou know.
And I think, because I alwayshave believed in the human
capacity to change and to grow,even if somebody tells me it's
not worth helping this person,that there's still a chance that
they can change, and so I'mgoing to do it.
(18:30):
And so I think in that moment Ijust, I guess, made that
decision that I was going to behopeful for myself and hopeful
for anybody else.
And within you know, a coupleof weeks, I had started an
online group because, of course,it was the pandemic and COVID
and things were shut down.
So I started an online groupfor women who had lost their
(18:51):
partners.
It's four and a half years laterand we're still going of
mediumship and death studies andwhat goes on.
You know astrophysics and justeverything else that encompasses
(19:12):
really to me hope, and so youand I talking about hope and
holding out hope for ourselvesalways.
I think this podcast, for me,more than anything, is for us to
get to hear stories of hope yes, for us.
And then the byproduct of thatis that anybody else who wants
to listen also gets to hear thestories.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So you were talking, sis, about how, when David
passed, how you claimed, really,that you were going to be on
that hope journey and that youwere going to stay present.
And I want to share somethingabout that also Two different
times One first, when my firsthusband left and I was a
(19:54):
suddenly new single mom with asix-week-old baby and just like,
wow, what do I do now and howdo I do this?
And I knew I wanted to be herefor him.
But I made a decision that Iwas going to be present because
I didn't want five years to pass, 10 years to pass, and I had no
(20:15):
memory of and no real livedexperience of that time with him
.
That I had to stay present forhim and I did.
I forced myself into it, staypresent for him, and I did.
I forced myself into it Massivegrief.
I'm not saying this was alleasy, but it was a choice.
It was a choice to livepresently and, of course, you
and David were enormouslyhelpful to me through all of
(20:38):
that time.
When you talk about it takes avillage boy did.
I have a village of love whocame in and supported, and the
same was true when Kenny died.
I turned to a lot of child lossgroups and so many of those
groups I kept hearing the storyof.
You know, it's been five yearsand it feels the same.
It's been so and it feels thesame.
Nothing changes.
(20:58):
I thought that can't be my life, that can't be my story.
With my son, people have beengrieving since the beginning of
the time.
That can't be the fallout here.
So what's the difference there?
And the difference?
The hook became this choicethat I am going to live and keep
(21:22):
moving and grieving and thatthis duality does exist.
Both of these things are trueand there are days and moments
and times when I still feel itin my gut, when I still am
dropped to my knees.
I miss him like crazy in thephysical, but also this profound
(21:44):
relationship I have with himnow and how I just so fully know
my kid is living his best life.
Now he really is and we areconnected and that that's true
for everyone.
It's not just I'm not special,I'm not different.
I've just done some work aroundthis.
(22:05):
I had a particular.
I always say it's like singing.
Everybody can sing.
Some people are born with amore exceptional talent for it,
but everybody can do the work tobuild the capacity and so that
it's similar to this.
I was born with a particularinclination, but you, my sister
(22:27):
and I say this all the timewe're born with profound
intuition and you followed pathsto work with that and expand,
and that's still very true.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I'm going to interrupt real quick and I won't
get through this statement,because everybody already knows
that I'm an emotional person,but you both are so special oh
and I know it's hard to acceptthat.
I know it's easy to deflect atfirst, obviously, because it's
sometimes it's overwhelming.
But I wouldn't be here if if itwasn't for you, donna right, if
(23:05):
your son hadn't wanted to learnmore about audio, we never
would have started our podcasttogether, which, in turn, gave
me the experience and gave methe desire and like the
wherewithal to know what a greatplatform to get this out.
And then, when you approach me,it was like, yeah, let's go,
(23:27):
let's do this right now becauseof I know you.
I know how special you are, notjust to me, my whole family and
our whole community.
Like, sorry, of course, I'm theone that's been talking less,
but I'm crying the most rightnow, and you guys are talking
about these things that peoplecan't get through, and you're
(23:49):
talking and you're sharing withour listeners how you got
through it, and that's thereason why I'm here.
So when you brought that up, Iwas.
However, I can help, but I justwill end with say you're both
special.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
To me, my family and many, many, many others in our
community and around, and I knowthat from watching the
interaction, seeing theinteraction, hearing the
interaction and then listeningto this podcast that we put
together right.
I get to edit it and I've saidit in conversations before I
(24:26):
love it because it's therapy forme, it is my opportunity to let
my heaviness go and be thereand be present, because I've had
those moments with my familythat I wasn't present and I've
learned from life and from beingaround people like you and many
(24:52):
of the other people that are inthis community that you know
have that love and empathy.
So I just want to make sure youguys know you're so special.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Thank you, that's very, very sweet and thank you
involved there.
And yes, I know there aremental illnesses and there's
(25:25):
abuses and all of these thingsexist.
There's a whole lot of choiceabout how we are in this world.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, yeah.
And so then that leads me to aquestion, sis, that we often ask
our guests right is kind ofthat hope through, where do you
find hope through?
And I think I have my where Ifind hope, but I'm curious how
you answer that Hope through.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So I think I had a different answer previously, but
right now I'm thinking, no,mine is hope through stories,
shared stories, the shared humanexperience.
I've always been drawn to thatLike how many times have I made
Christmas presents of like,conversation, questions, or I'm
the one at the table who, like,let's ask the question and go
around, which our one sister inparticular can't stand?
(26:18):
No, no, and it's not foreverybody, but that's always
been my thing.
I want to hear people's storiesand I want to connect to their
humanity, to their truth selves.
I want to hear people's storiesand I want to connect to their
humanity, to their true selves,and I want to share that.
One of the reasons I'm drawn totheater, one of the reasons I'm
a writer and one of the reasonsI do this kind of work, is that
you know hope through the sharedstories and hence we've got the
(26:40):
soul sisteries because it'sabout that.
And, as you can hear, I love totalk, but I love to listen too,
and learning from otherpeople's stories is just like
it's such a wow to me.
How about you, sis?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
It's the funny thing because I hear you talking about
stories and I definitely that'sone way that I find hope and I
have to laugh because that's mydissertation is all about
autobiographical memories, whichis, the stories right, the
stories we tell.
So I think that's veryimportant.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Can we jump in right here and say that Kenny read
your dissertation like he wantedto, as a little baby, not a
baby as?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
a little boy as a kid Boy he was like eight, nine
years old reading mydissertation and he didn't
finish the whole thing becauseit's very long, but he got
through at least the firstchapter and asked some great
questions.
So it was very cool to have himread it.
But I think I have two words, Ithink, and I don't know, that I
(27:35):
could choose one, so I'm goingto have to say both.
But I think it's hope throughaction and hope through
connection, and for me those gotogether because it's the
connecting through action, Iguess, is really it, and that is
always in life.
I do something, I don't justthink about it, and I might not
(27:57):
do it the best, I might not bethe best at it, but if I get an
idea I'm going to do it, put iton paper and do it, whether it's
ice skating lessons, guitarlessons, piano lessons, hiking,
running a marathon, whatever itis.
Just throw it at me.
I'm like, yeah, that sounds fun, let's try it at least once.
So it's definitely action, butit's connecting through action,
(28:19):
because, even as I say that Idid a marathon once I don't know
I'll ever do it again but I didit with team and training for
the Leukemia Society.
So I did it to raise money andconnect with others and it was
this group thing that we did.
It's hope through.
You know my grief.
And I started a widow's group.
Like I said, we're stillrunning, four and a half years
later.
(28:39):
Kind of same thing.
I.
I saw women on a page, on aFacebook page for widows, and it
was the first night and Iremember seeing somebody's
comment that their partner haddied 17 years ago and it still
feels as though it was yesterday, had died 17 years ago and it
still feels as though it wasyesterday.
And I thought, oh, that can'tbe me, I can't go into old age
(29:07):
feeling how this feels tonight.
And so it was that consciousdecision to act connect with
women really all around theworld.
When we started we had peoplein Australia, but today it's all
around the country, a group ofus coming together for hope in
action.
And it's through our connection.
It's that soul connectionreally.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
And what you're talking about here too is choice
.
You'd make a decision and youmove forward.
Okay, so this has always beenyour thing.
I can say as your older sisterand one who's watched you all
along yeah, you've always beenamazing at.
I think I want to learnwhatever, and you just do it.
You take the class and you doit.
It's always so amazing and youseem to naturally have a certain
(29:47):
kind of confidence.
But I think it's I don't evenknow that it's confidence just a
willingness to try and fail.
That was my hang up.
I had and I've learned as aneducator because I've lived many
years as a teacher as well I'velearned as an educator there's
a certain mindset and like whatwe call the gifted kid or
whatever, whatever label you puton there where I'm only going
(30:10):
to do the thing that I canimmediately be fabulous at and
I'm not going to try the thingthat I'm not so sure about.
And that was definitely my MO.
And so I stayed small and quietabout a lot of things because I
wasn't instantly stellar atthem.
And Pat, the little girl I oncewas on the back right now and
(30:30):
say there's a lot of things thatshe really kicked ass at Kick
butt.
Maybe I should say thingsdifferently.
I don't know Editing Kirkediting, so there's of things
that she really kicked ass atKick butt.
Maybe I should say thingsdifferently.
I don't know Editing Kirkediting.
So there's some things that shereally was great at and did
beautifully, but there's so muchI didn't try.
So part of what my story, myjourney, has led me to, is a
(30:52):
place where I had to put it alldown and I had to stop caring
about what somebody else thinksand am I good enough and can I
do, or whatever, because itreally none of that really
mattered anymore.
And so I stepped into a spacewhere I could choose confidence.
(31:13):
And I've discovered that that'sso for me.
I choose confidence and I do it.
So the first time when Istarted doing readings for
people and it was very scary andwho am I?
Who am I to think I can do thisand what and how and all of
that stuff, and how dare I Allof that?
But I have gotten affirmed andvalidated again and again and
(31:36):
again that this is helpful andsupportive to others and it is
making a difference.
And then, of course, my naturalconfidence has built over time
through that journey and itfeels very different now.
I hope I'm making sense here.
I'm so long-winded.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
I think you're telling your story, though.
I think that's interestingthough, because I was not the
best.
I think of us young kids and Ithink of you as somebody who
always won everything you did,and it's interesting to hear you
say that, because you did thethings that you were good at,
and so I didn't do sportsbecause I wasn't the top.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
So I did a little bit of sports, but you know, not
really.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I didn't grow up seeing you do things that you
weren't going to be good at,because you didn't do those
things where I was not reallythe best at anything.
But I was going to have fun atwhatever I was going to do.
And that's not to say I had theconfidence, because I certainly
didn't have all the confidencewhen I was little, but as I got
older it was one of those things.
(32:43):
Like you know, life is short,especially the last five years.
I know life is short.
Do whatever the heck you want,whether you fall on your face or
not, because you know whatyou're going to get up and that
embarrassment's going to pass,but at least you're going to
have tried it right.
And instead of saying 10 yearsfrom now, gosh, I wish I tried
playing the guitar or gosh, Iwish I went on that hike across
(33:07):
whatever trail you know, atleast to be able to say I did it
.
And I will say, along with thisstory of hope, it absolutely
sucks losing Kenny and David.
There's not a day that goes bythat I wouldn't change at all
and bring them back.
I mean, I would love to havethem right here, but even with
them where they are now, thatgives me so much hope and I
(33:32):
always just imagine myself like,oh, I'm going to go jump off a
cliff.
How crazy are you?
Oh well, you know what?
David and Kenny are here.
They're gonna make sure I'mokay and I don't mean literally
jumping off a cliff, because I'mnot a daredevil, but whatever I
wanna do, I just feel likesomebody's got my back and
that's just so hopeful.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I guess, yeah, it absolutely is, it absolutely is.
I guess, yeah, it absolutely is, it absolutely is.
I love everything you're saying, sis, and I want to say one
thing also along the lines ofwhat you just said.
You talked about how you wouldchange it in a second and I've
thought about that a lot.
There came a certain pointbecause I get that I mean I'm
with you in, like oh my God,would I give anything to be able
(34:11):
to just big old hug and like tosmell him.
You know what I mean.
Like each of your children hasa particular scent, right, you
can pick that out anywhere.
And just to smell him and tohear his laugh, to hear his keys
in the door, like these arethings like, oh God, I would
just give anything for that.
And yet I'm also aware that ifI was really given the choice
(34:33):
and if I was asked, you knowthat if I was really given the
choice and if I was asked, youknow, would I bring him back if
I could and you know I had Icould do that.
I know, down to my toes, I knowand oof, I feel this through my
body as I say it.
I know my answer would be no,because I know he is, as I said,
living his best life now.
(34:54):
He is whole, perfect andcomplete, he is happy.
He is happy and as his mom,that's all I want for him.
Right, that's what I want forhim.
So that first, and I promiseanyone listening, yes, it still
kills, and there are things thatI think about and like that his
(35:15):
brother doesn't have him here.
Oh, I still kills, and thereare things that I think about
and like that his brotherdoesn't have him here.
Oh, I hate that.
All of the cousins who've losthim, his friends who you know,
all of that stuff does hurt.
It's not just like, oh,everything's fine, my kid died
and I'm great, but I am good andI have joy and I have a full
and rich life.
That is what's real.
And also, my son died and thatsucked and still sucks and is
(35:39):
also beautiful.
And I know, no, sis, I know youknow.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
It's a crazy thing and I don't know.
I think I kind of feel the same, losing a partner.
More than anything, I don'tlike our kids to not have their
dad.
That is the worst, you know.
It was, yeah, losing what wecall the brother-cousin right,
(36:05):
they were more than cousins, itwas the brother-cousin and then
losing their dad also, yeah, andlife goes on and you can have a
beautiful full life.
Which then leads me to the nextI'm asking.
The question, sis, is you know,do you find hope, do you create
hope?
(36:25):
Does it just show up at yourdoorstep?
And I think that we both kindof shared that we create it, we
make it.
It's not like, oh, I see afour-leaf clover and I'm like,
okay, here's hope.
We actively, actively createthe hope for ourselves and for
others, I think.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I agree, and we're really intentional about that
and that's how we landed on ourhope through tagline also.
Because it's hope through whatthere's some action, there's
some perspective.
Because it's hope through whatthere's some action, there's
some perspective, there's somesomething that then generates
the hope.
It doesn't just happen.
The same way I talked aboutconfidence.
It's like oh, I'm so hopeful, Ijust am filled with hope.
(37:07):
No, there's work to be donehere, there's choice around it,
and there are times when Idefinitely can't find it and I
turn to you and I turn to otherswho helped me with my
perspective and I think same.
I mean, we for sure both gothrough our times of well, this
all sucks and I don't want anypart of this.
(37:29):
We go through that.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
For sure.
Pity parties are fun.
You need to have that, so right.
So I mean, I do throw myself apity party and that it's like,
okay, time's up.
I got to get back to the way Iwant to live my life, you know,
and I don't want to live my lifein grief and knowing that both
of those guys are doing whateverthe heck they want to do and
(37:53):
seeing the world.
And you know, yay that they getto live their best lives.
And while I'm here, I'm goingto live my best life.
So, you know, I don't alwaysknow what that's going to look
like from day to day, but I amgoing to try to live that.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
So but I think you guys had both said you're going
to try and you do it withpurpose and so many people out
there don't.
And I mean, I'm not trying totrivialize anything, but people
lose their minds when theirsports team doesn't win or you
know, just something trivialhappens, right.
I was one of those guys thatwould be like, oh my gosh, this
(38:27):
team didn't win and it's allover, and it's frigging sports,
it's a you know, or it's my badband didn't play that song I
wanted to hear, or I got a flattire or just all these things
that we get faced with everysingle day.
Yeah, and had your educationand had your support group to be
(38:58):
purposeful in that decision andand to do not only the things
that you do in your professionallives and your personal lives.
But now here you are, out there, you're telling the world your
story and you don't have to dothat, and that's not an easy
thing to do at all.
To put yourself out there.
I mean, every day, before wewalk out the door, what we're
looking, look okay.
Is this?
Does this outfit look okay?
Am I presenting myself Well?
(39:19):
Is my hair done?
You know, you, you, you, youconcern yourself sometimes about
that presentation out there.
But I, I feel, and I and I'vegone through some trend you know
transformations in my olderdays as well in that in you go
through loss and you go throughthings that were important to
you, and the purposefulness tome is the hope through for both
(39:43):
of you.
You said, you said it Diane,the, the, the action, and.
And then you told the story inthe beginning about pulling
cardboard boxes from from thestore and and making sets, and
it sounds like you've alwaysbeen doing and that the doing is
that purpose and what gives youand thank goodness and thank
(40:06):
any and all the powers andreligions and deities and
whatever that are out there thatyou have been focused enough to
be able to say, yep, it sucks.
And I'm moving on and and I Ican say just from my small
purview, I know many, many, many, many people personally and I
(40:27):
think, many people through this,you know this platform, that
are gaining from thatperspective and that example and
, um, I'm just thankful to be apart of it and I'm thankful that
you guys, um, find that purposeevery day.
But you also, you alsounderstand the grief and you
(40:49):
embrace it in the sense that youknow it's real and uh, you're
not trying to deny it because somany people do, and I think
that's why they hold on for 17years is because they can't
accept the reality of of whathappens.
But every day we go throughsome type of some type of
(41:09):
transition that could changeeverything right.
The flat tire you missed aphone call, you, you, you know,
check didn't come through.
Whatever it is, and thepurposefulness, I think, is an
amazing message that you'resharing with the world, an
amazing message.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Thank you, I hope so, that's, I mean, that is our
intention.
That is our intention and weboth feel, I know, very
compelled and pushed forward tojust keep talking, keep sharing,
keep bringing people together,keep speaking on these things
that we find there's just somuch commonality and so much.
(41:50):
I thought of myself in the pastas being a sensitive and
compassionate person, but Idiscovered in time that there
was just a whole lot that Ididn't know until I knew, and I
didn't know these things.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah, you know, sis, that's exactly it.
You know, I always feel likeI've been compassionate in my
life, that I showed up forpeople in my life.
I became a therapist, I didsocial work, I volunteered.
I go where people need me, whenthey call me, and then I
experienced these losses, oneright after the other, and I
(42:33):
think I got it.
I got it so much more than Iever thought I got it before.
And I remember thinking, oh mygosh, I have to call every
single client, every singlefriend, that maybe I didn't do
enough for that, maybe I didn'tquite get it.
But you know, I did what I knewto do until I knew better right
(43:00):
, and now I think I show up in adifferent way now.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, totally, you know.
Sometimes with other parentswho have lost kids we talk about
you know.
I hope other people don't everknow.
I know you feel the same.
I hope people don't know thisreality, but there's stuff you'd
like it.
I just said, you can't knowuntil you know, and once you're
(43:26):
open to that, it's it's justthis whole world.
And then you realize also thatthere's so many people who do
know and who do sit in this samespace.
And, god, I wish we all talkedabout it more with each other.
It's such a normal andfundamental part of what it is
to be human, to be alive, tohave these kinds of losses.
(43:48):
When you love, you also haveloss.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
And I think that's it's so often I remember, I mean
for weeks after losing mypartner, but then also years
after, where people don't wantto talk about something and
they'll actually say well, Idon't want to make you cry, or I
have my good days and my baddays, so you sharing something
does not make me feel any worse.
In fact, it's even better,because to hear Kenny and David
(44:24):
and you know even dad and papaand to hear those names
continually being said, thatpeople remember and that's how
we live on, right, that's how welive on people remember and
that's how we live on, right,that's how we live on.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
That is one of the most profound gifts I think that
you can give someone who haslost someone is to speak their
name, to mention them, tomention a memory that you have,
just a simple little thing.
It goes so far and so long.
That's one of the pains peoplehave, right, as time goes on and
they feel that everybody'sforgotten their loved one
because they're not speakingtheir names in the same way To
(45:05):
keep them part of theconversation.
It doesn't have to be huge,just a small mention.
Oh my gosh, that is powerful,oh my gosh, that is powerful.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah, and if, if they don't know the loved one to say
, well, tell me about so and so,or what's your favorite memory
about so and so?
Or you know, we're coming infilming this around the holidays
, you know, and it's like whatis their favorite holiday cookie
?
What was their favorite youknow gift that they ever
(45:35):
received?
I don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Or the favorite gift that you ever got from them.
You're exactly right, sis.
That is just such good stuffand a reminder to me right at
the second that I need to domore of that and be really
conscious.
That's really, when all is saidand done.
It's this, these messages oflove and hope and sharing that
with one another.
Really that is all that mattersin this crazy life.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Sure, and, and I will say now just kind of looking at
how long we've been talking,we've been talking for a little
while and I know we haven'tasked the questions we normally
ask of guests that come onto theshow.
We haven't kind of gone throughour little rapid fire
questioning, but I think maybewe've shared enough just to kind
(46:24):
of give the listeners kind ofsome, I guess, some background
on us, have a little bit ofinformation on us, and we can
certainly share more of ourstories and more of what we're
doing and what got us here later.
But I think maybe we wrap upnow.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (46:42):
I think absolutely.
We do wrap up.
This is enough, and thank youto anyone who is still listening
and sharing our stories with us.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
That's our children.
I may make them listen at somepoint with us.
It's our children, I you knowmay make them listen at some
point.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
For sure.
Well, thank you everyone, and,uh boy, our hearts are with you
wherever you are in yourjourneys and, um, you know, we
hope that all of this helps tosupport your, your hope in your
world as well, and we want toshare in that with you.
So, thank you, thank you, thankyou so much.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, thanks everybody.
Thanks for being here againtoday.
Thanks for joining us today onSoul Sisteries.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
And thanks for sharing stories with us.
We'd love to hear your storiesas well and keep the
conversation going, absolutelykeeping the hope going.
So we're really hopeful thatyou'll connect with our guests
as well, who have great storiesto share.
Go ahead and follow them invarious social media platforms
or live venues, wherever it isthat they're performing and
(47:51):
sharing what they do.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
We would love to have you follow us on all of our
social media platforms,subscribe and rate, as that will
help us get our message of hopeout to others.
Thanks for listening to Soul.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Sisteries.
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