April 10, 2024 • 57 mins
In the 2nd episode of "Sound-off with Sinkoff", Brian Sinkoff interviews Will Brown, the current St. Rose women's basketball coach. Will talks about his experience coaching women's college hoops and the current state of men's and women's college basketball.
They discuss topics such as the challenges of coaching women's basketball, the success of Caitlin Clark and the South Carolina women's team, UConn's dominance in the men's game, and the impact of the NIL (Name, Image, and Likeness) on college athletes.
The conversation covers various topics related to college basketball, including the unintended consequences of Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) policies, the impact of the transfer portal on mid-major schools, and the challenges of recruiting and coaching at a mid-major level.
The conversation also touches on the NCAA tournament experience and the recent departure of John Calipari from Kentucky to Arkansas. Overall, the conversation provides insights into the complexities and dynamics of college basketball.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And hello and welcome everyone to Sound Off with Sink
Off.
So glad you are with us heretoday.
Sound Off with Sink Off, ofcourse sponsored by the Sink Off
Realty Group right here in DelMar, new York.
Well, it's the second Sound Offwith Sink Off podcast and it is
my pleasure to bring in thecurrent St Rose women's
(00:20):
basketball coach and a goodfriend of mine.
I've known him for almost 20years.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Mr Will Brown Will welcome to Sound Off.
Thanks for having me.
It's good to see you back inthe sports game.
I know you really never left,but it's nice to see you hosting
this podcast and I appreciateyou asking me to come on.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Awesome.
Will we thank you for joiningme?
I know we're going to get intowomen's college hoops, like the
tournament.
We'll talk about the men UConnwinning the national
championship.
But first let's talk a littlebit about you.
You were named the St Rosewomen's coach in June of 23.
You find out in December, inthe middle of the beginning of
(01:03):
your season.
Your school is closing.
You managed to have a 21-7record.
You're 17-5 in the conference.
You get to the NCAA tournament.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
What was last year like for you professionally and
even personally.
I have to be honest with you.
You know, late May of 23, whenLaurie Ankle, the director of
athletics at St Rose, approachedme about the talk to your
family, talk to some people andkeep the lines of communication
open.
Then one day my wife just saidto me why don't you do it?
(01:57):
Why not?
We really want to stay in thearea.
We're not looking to relocateat this point in time.
Our older son was going to getready to play his senior season
in college over at Russell Sage.
So you know, coaches alwayslike to say why not us?
My wife looked at me and saidwhy not do it?
(02:18):
It'll be fun?
And then, you know, I took alittle more time, you know, did
my research and, you know,agreed to do it and, I have to
be honest with you, early on Iwas like a deer in headlights
trying to navigate through it,figure it out, you know, really
get to understand thesepersonalities and you know what
(02:40):
it was going to be like to coachwomen's basketball.
I had to try to add somerecruits, hire an assistant
coach and, you know, fastforward to the fall when classes
started and we started workingout.
You know it was just reallyenjoyable.
You know, I have to admit I hadno idea that the school was in
(03:01):
jeopardy of closing.
That came as a surprise.
There's no manual as far as howto handle these situations.
I don't know anyone that wentthrough a similar situation, so
we had to kind of navigate ittogether.
You know Lori, heradministration team, you know my
coaching staff, our players.
(03:22):
We just really stuck togetherand said, hey, instead of
hanging our heads, let's dealwith the adversity, let's
control the narrative, let's tryto do something special,
memorable, let's do somethingfor the institution and for all
the alumni that came throughthis program.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You know prior Will your team first in the country
in defensive points allowed.
Defensive field goal percentage.
Defensive three-point fieldgoal percentage?
You obviously no secret.
You coached at Albany from 2002to 2021.
You go to five NCAA tournaments.
How different was the women'sgame from the men's game?
(04:01):
Something that you really cutyour teeth in?
And that was the men's game.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
The games are definitely different.
I wasn't going into this naivethinking basketball is
basketball.
That would have been veryfoolish of me.
The rules are different, so Ihad to learn as much as I could
in a short period of time.
It's more of a below-the-rimgame but it also, as I found,
(04:27):
it's, an enjoyable game.
The players if they really knowthat you care about them and
that you can develop that trust,they'll do anything for you.
So we.
Once we became more familiarwith the personnel on our roster
, it became how do we put thisteam in the best position to be
(04:49):
successful?
How can this group play wherewe can win games?
Because I told them we aregoing to win.
I didn't tell them how manygames we were going to win this
senior class.
I was their third coach.
They had never experiencedwinning.
I told them we are going to win.
Just please trust me and trustCarly Boland, my assistant, and
(05:11):
embrace what we're asking you todo.
And it's the old saying defensetravels and it travels well
Every time we step on the floor.
If we defend and rebound, we'llhave a chance to win.
You're not going to make shots,you know, every night, but you
can defend and rebound andreally compete every night and
that's kind of what we hung ourhat on.
(05:32):
We're going to defend, we'regoing to rebound, we're going to
compete and we're going to bethe most prepared team in the
country and we felt that if theplayers bought in, that would be
good enough on most nights.
Our biggest challengethroughout the season is finding
where our next basket was goingto come from.
There were nights where westruggled mightily on the
(05:52):
offensive side of the ball.
But again, anyone that satbehind our bench during the game
heard me tell our team do whatwe do, don't waver from what we
do.
This is who we are and our kidsreally embraced it.
I'll tell you what.
Once I understood theirpersonalities and you know I was
(06:14):
told that on the woman's side,the student-athlete is a little
more sensitive, a little moreemotional Once I figured that
piece out you know it was smoothsailing.
I mean, this brew was anabsolute pleasure to coach.
I really think that they gaveme more than I gave them.
It helped me grow and develop.
And then the rules piece.
(06:35):
You know, under a minute to go,you call a timeout.
You can advance the ball Everyfree throw.
When you're in the bonus, it'sautomatic two shots.
You know that's something Iwasn't used to, so the last
couple of years have been goodfor me, going from coaching a
Division I men's game to theprofessional level to the
(06:55):
women's game.
It's really helped me grow andevolve as a coach and I think
that's what it's all about.
We always ask our players toget better, but what are we
doing as coaches to get better?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Will, of course, mentioned the pro game.
He coached the Albany Patroonsin the basketball league.
Will you had?
I mean, have you know have ball?
Will travel, will pardon thepun.
You have been successfuleverywhere you've been.
You win the.
You go to five NCAA tournamentsat Albany.
You go.
You coach the Patroons.
They're 29 and four.
(07:24):
You're the coach of the yearNortheast division champs,
eastern regional champs, easternconference champs.
That, how was that for you,coaching the Patroons?
How different was it?
I know it was drasticallydifferent from from being at
UAlbany, but how different wasthat experience and what did you
learn about yourself duringthat time?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I became a much more patient coach coaching the
Patroons.
One thing that I needed tounderstand, and understand
quickly, is you're not coachingcollege kids anymore, you're
coaching grown men and this istheir livelihood.
So, as much as they want toenjoy team success, they're
motivated to have individualsuccess because they're looking
to get their next job, whetherit's professionally overseas,
(08:09):
whether it's the NBA G League.
You know they all have goalsand some of them had families.
So this, this was a way forthem to provide for their
families.
So, yeah, you know I had, I hada great coaching staff with the
Patroons.
You know I had Brian Beery, thelongtime head coach at the
College of St Rose, on the men'sside, don Bassett, who was one
(08:30):
of George Carl's assistantsduring the CBA years with the
Albany Patroons, mark Ribsick,julie McBride.
So we had a tremendous staff.
I was able to lean on DonnieBassett quite a bit because of
his experiences coaching at theprofessional level.
Julie McBride had playedbasically 20 years.
She had a cup of coffee in theWNBA and then played over in
(08:55):
Europe for 18 or 19 years.
So just relying on my coachingstaff, understanding the types
of players that I was coaching,what motivated them, but also
trying to make sure that we wongames.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Will you know the college closes.
You're still on campus.
We see the pennant behind youBefore we went on the air here
you mentioned.
You're still there trying to.
You know, do the right thing byyour players get them figuring
out where they're going to go tocollege next year, since,
obviously, st Rose isn't anoption.
But the question for you iswhat are you doing next year?
(09:32):
I'm putting you on the spot,will.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, we had always takengreat pride in being part of
this community.
This is where we've raised ourfamily.
This is all my two sons know mywife's born and raised here, my
in-laws are here, my parentsare here.
So we're kind of at acrossroads right now, trying to
figure out are we really willingto relocate?
(09:58):
At what cost will we relocate?
At what cost will we relocate?
You know, I had opportunitiesthe last year or two to move to
the Midwest and work in the BigEast and it was going to be a
situation where I was going togo by myself because I had no
(10:19):
interest in becoming anassistant coach and this
opportunity was specialassistant to the head coach,
where I was able to be able towork with a first-time head
coach at a high level, kind ofmentor, teach um and have, uh,
and it took a role.
But my wife knew that's reallynot what I wanted to do.
So but she's, she's theultimate basketball wife and I
(10:40):
shouldn't even say basketballwife.
You know she's a great wife andshe's like I, basketball wife.
I shouldn't even say basketballwife.
You know she's a great wife andshe's like.
I know this isn't what you wantto really do, but go do it for
eight months and then come onback and we'll figure out the
next step.
So right now we're kind of innot in limbo but we're trying to
figure out what's best for thefamily, and then that's really
(11:04):
what it's going to come down to.
I'm open.
I'm open to the men's side orthe woman's side you know, throw
it out there.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Will your resume is out there and on this show your
resume is out there because willI know and I've known you for a
long time, we obviously have apersonal relationship.
But to prove if you knownothing about you, will brown, I
look at your resume and I gofive NCAA tournaments at Albany.
One year at the Patroons You'rethe GM.
You've never been a pro coach.
(11:31):
You lead them to a title andthen you take over St Rose who
basically, I don't say had thedeath penalty, but pretty much
did when you got there and youlead them to the NCAA tournament
.
So Will you can coach the oldlefty Drizelle I can coach.
Remember the old lefty quote?
Oh, lefty.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well, I appreciate that, brian, and you know, like
anything in this world today,it's so political out there and
you know you just look for agood opportunity that makes
sense and you know, if you canget one of those jobs that's in
the best interest of you andyour family and it makes sense,
then you know that's what we'lldo.
(12:10):
But there's a lot of people outthere I think getting the next
job is easy.
There's a lot of coaches outthere that want to be head
coaches and any time a headcoaching job opens up, you know
there's hundreds of candidates.
So you know's hundreds ofcandidates.
So you know something I'll uh,you know it always works itself
out.
So we're excited about the nextchapter and you know, I know
(12:31):
you're trying to push me out ofalbany here, but uh, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
No no, no, no.
Come on, all right, let's,let's switch gears, let's talk.
Uh, we'll talk.
We'll start with the women'sgame, because you obviously just
coach women's hoops, southCarolina.
They're undefeated, they winthe whole thing.
They beat Iowa in the finals.
Of course we saw Iowa here inAlbany.
I know you and your family wereat the games.
(12:56):
I'll be the first to tell youWill.
I mean, this is just me and youknow me.
I've always told the truth,especially on the air.
I watched more women'sbasketball, women's college
basketball, in the last twoweeks than I did in the previous
10 years.
That is no joke and I loved itand I think it's a testament to
what Caitlin Clark, southCarolina, dawn Staley, has done
for women's hoops Fair statementWith you.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I think Caitlin Clark has elevated the women's game
and made it cool to followwomen's basketball.
And one of the things thatannoys me and I've been on the
men's side forever, but one ofthe things that annoys me is on
the women's side everyone istalking about.
We have to elevate women'ssports and we need more people
(13:42):
paying attention to women'ssports, and then we have a
generational talent like KaitlynClark.
Come around and what does shedo?
She elevates women's basketballto an all-time level, and then
there's female athletes outthere basically taking shots at
her.
And I think that's somethingthat really bothers me because
(14:04):
there's, you know, every decade.
You know there's great playersthat have elevated the game.
It's just that it hasn'thappened at this level.
We've never seen it.
And you got to give a lot ofcredit to social media for this
as well and why.
You know the game has beenelevated.
But Caitlin's supporting castgood players, but she's not
(14:28):
playing with other McDonald'sAll-Americans, she's not playing
with anyone else that'll be inthe WNBA.
She took she took a chance onIowa and she elevated that
program.
So I think what she's done iseven more special than what some
of these other players thathave done that are chopping her
(14:49):
down.
But it's great to see.
But I also think we have tothrow Dawn Staley in the mix.
What she's done for the women'sgame, what she's done for the
program at South CarolinaHonestly, I mean they were
undefeated throughout theregular season.
A year ago they just stumbled inthe Final Four to a great
performance by Kaitlyn Clark andIowa.
(15:12):
Fast forward to this year.
You know, undefeated.
Again, they got the job done.
You know Doss Daly is anall-time great and I think that
again she's helped Kaitlyn Clarkyou know Clark elevate the game
of women's basketball and it'snot slowing down.
Juju Watkins from USC is goingto be an all-time great if she
(15:32):
stays healthy.
The two freshmen that come offthe bench for South Carolina
Tessa Johnson and Full Wileythey're both freshmen.
They can start at any otherprogram in the country.
They went to South Carolina,played for Gauss Daily and win
championships.
They're start at any otherprogram in the country.
They went to South Carolina,played for Goss Daily and win
championships.
They're waiting their turn.
You know it's just a great timeto be a women's college
(15:53):
basketball fan.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
You know my and I'll just be honest with you.
I feel like this as youmentioned this, the Caitlin
Clark and having her in Albanyand all the hype that went
around that, and she sets thescoring record from Maravich at
LSU back in the day Do you feellike a year from now we're going
to have the same excitement?
(16:15):
And I know we're looking into acrystal ball we're going to
have the same excitement aboutwomen's basketball?
Or and I'm going to just becompletely blunt with you Is
this like figure skating in theOlympics?
It was great now, and we'mgoing to just be completely
blunt with you is this likefigure skating in the Olympics?
It was great now and we'regoing to forget about it for the
next year or so.
You know what I mean.
I'm just interested to see howit pans out you know that's a
(16:36):
great question.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
The second leading scorer in the country this year
on the women's side, jujuWatkins, freshman from USC.
Nobody on the East Coast isgoing to see Juju Watkins play
next year.
You know the time difference.
You know Kaitlyn Clark's movingto the WNBA.
Will South Carolina be greatagain?
(16:58):
Probably so.
I hate to say this, but I thinkthat it's going to be a slow
process again.
It's going to take a couple ofsteps back.
People are going to wait andsee.
You know, I just think thisCaitlin Clark phenomenon it's
been building for four years.
It took time.
(17:18):
So I do think, unfortunately,it's probably going to take a
step or two backwards.
I hope it doesn't, but that'swhat I would guess at this point
in time.
I'm going to to take a step ortwo backwards.
I hope it doesn't, but that'swhat I would guess at this point
in time I'm going to give you asink or swim.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
You remember how it works.
You sink and you swim with me.
You sink, you disagree, youswim, you agree.
Um will, uh, caitlin clark, I'mgoing to say I have to.
I can't ask you a question.
I actually have to say it.
Kaitlyn Clark success in theNBA.
Not in the NBA, but the WNBA.
(17:49):
The WNBA sorry, the WNBA, sorry.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
I'm going to swim with Kaitlyn Clark because I
think she knows what she'swalking into and she'll be more
than prepared and unfortunately,I think the WNBA too many of
those players are waiting forher to try to knock her down and
you know, to try to say hey,you know this is where the real
(18:16):
players are, but she's more thanprepared because she doesn't
need to score to impact the game.
People don't realize.
Not only is she the bestthree-point shooter and best
scorer in college basketball,she's the best passer in college
basketball.
She makes her teammates betterand so few scorers have the
opportunity or the ability, Ishould say, to make their
(18:38):
teammates better by passing thebasketball.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Will, I will throw another sink or swim at you.
I'm going to say this CaitlinClark was the biggest story in
college hoops in the last 15years.
I'd say Jimmer the way he tookover.
And Caitlin Clark, are youswimming with that?
Just in terms of captured thecollege basketball landscape the
(19:03):
way no single player had.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I'm going to swim with that without hesitation.
And the reason I'm saying youput Caitlin in a category by
herself because she's got youngboys and young girls watching.
She's got women and meninterested.
(19:26):
I played pickleball four orfive mornings a week.
I've got 10 or 12 grown menthat I play with and for the
last couple of weeks all they'retalking about is Caitlin Clark.
When's the last time thatsomething like that has happened
?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
A long time.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I don't recall it.
So you know when you can, youknow when you have the eyes of
men and women, boys and girlsfrom all over the United States
and really all over the world.
You're special.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
All right, let's shift gears to the men's game.
Gosh, there's so much I want totalk to you about men's college
basketball.
Not only the game with UConnwinning their second straight,
but just the landscape of it andthe way the nil and the way the
portal has changed things.
Let's talk first about thecollege uh national championship
uconn winning their secondstraight um dominant fashion 75,
(20:20):
60, um.
Well, I, I've followed college.
I mean you obviously.
You obviously know way moreabout the sport than me, but I
followed college basketballsince like 79, 80.
I don't think I've ever seen anoffense do as many things as
Hurley's offense does.
Nobody stops moving.
It's unbelievable, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, the ball movement, the player movement,
the way that they bring Klanaway from the basket.
He handles the ball quite a bitat the top of the tee for them,
which opens up driving lanes.
Yeah, they do a lot of goodthings.
Very difficult to guard, a lotof misdirection.
Danny Hurley right now is thecoach in college basketball.
(21:06):
Back-to-back national titles.
The preparation, the way theyplayed both sides of the ball,
their game plan for Purdue wastremendous.
They were willing to give up 50to Edie but they were not going
to allow Purdue to shoot thethree and they were going to
force those small guards ofPurdue to make tough twos.
(21:30):
So Edie had 35, and UConn wonby nearly 20.
And you can't key in on wireFor UConn.
You take one player away, fourothers are going to beat you.
So I'm just so impressed withhow they play both sides of the
ball and how tough they are.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
You look at, they won back-to-back national
championships for the first timesince Florida.
And I remember old schoolUAlbany.
When you guys played Florida,you hung tough with them.
I think that was 05-06 year,wasn't it the year they won the
first national title 0-5-0-6,.
You all played them tough.
Talk about that real quickbecause that team was what?
(22:14):
Four or five NBA players I mean, they were ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, they had Joachim Noah Al Horford.
They had the long 6-6-6-7 wing.
I don't know why I can'tremember his name, but we went
down there and we were either upone or down one at the half.
But the last play of the firsthalf Jamar Wilson stole the ball
and goes down in transition,hard foul, he goes into the
(22:40):
basket, he comes up and he'slimping and he tweaked his groin
and played a little bit in thesecond half but he wasn't
effective.
He had gotten hurt.
But to see how good they were upclose and live, I mean big
physical and, like you said, abunch of those guys went on to
play in the NBA.
It's hard to win one Now thinkabout winning two.
(23:02):
You have to be good, you haveto stay healthy, you have to
have some luck on your side andyou have to have really good
coaching.
So I've got a greatappreciation for what Billy
Donovan did with that team atFlorida and what Danny Hurley
just accomplished.
What's going to be interestingat UConn, if he stays at UConn,
(23:23):
is can they win a third at UConn?
Is can they win a third?
Because I'm not sure who'sgoing to come back so they might
have, you know, a major rosterrebuild because of how many guys
they're going to have that areout of eligibility or that are
going to be selected in the NBAdraft.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Well, wait one second .
I got to get a plug for mycomputer.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I need one too.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Keep rolling, just keep rolling, rolling, just keep
rolling wait all right.
Well, that's a great point.
As far as florida, uh, and thenyukon who's coming back?
I think that one of the mostamazing things about the yukon
run was that hurley essentiallyhad almost a brand new team.
(24:05):
I mean, I think clin may haveled the team last year in
minutes, with like 10 minutesoff the bench, but everybody
else was either.
A transfer was new.
I mean, it was unbelievablethat he whereas Florida we
talked about them who you playedback in the day it was majority
of the same guys, the same core.
Uconn was completely differentand he still manages to get the
(24:27):
deal done.
That's what I found remarkableabout this second championship.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Well, nowadays I mean the world of college athletics
has changed.
You know those players thatwere at Florida.
They were going to stay atFlorida or go to the NBA.
Now we're in the world of NILand transfer portal and you know
instant success.
Nobody's waiting their turn,nobody's developing.
You know it's like hey, if I'mnot playing right now, I'm
(24:55):
leaving.
So it's a credit to you knowwhat Danny Hurley and his staff
have been able to do becauseit's difficult.
Roster management is yournumber one priority right now
and rosters are going to changefor the most part every year.
So if you can keep your coregroup together, you're going to
be way ahead of the game.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
All right, let's talk about that, because you led the
perfect transition segue, ifyou will, into my next point,
and that is the NIL, thelicensing agreement.
Players quote, unquoteunquotenow allowed to get paid through
these deals.
Clearly, the colleges with thedeepest pockets have more money
to spend, which are going toattract players from mid-majors,
(25:38):
like the UAlbanys, like theSiennas, like the Mac schools.
Do you like this?
I mean be honest, do you likethe way this is Not the way it's
transpired, but the idea?
Because, personally me, brianSinkoff, I hate it, but let me
hear your thoughts before itgets better.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
But I will say this I'm more of an old soul, an old
school mentality.
There's not much of anappreciation anymore for a
scholarship, but I do thinkeveryone else is making money
off these student-athletes.
I do think the student-athletesdeserve an opportunity to make
(26:24):
some money.
The problem that I have is NILwas supposed to it wasn't
supposed to be pay for playRight, and that's exactly what
it is.
It's basically like thecolleges are now like minor
league systems you know you'repaying and then in the same
locker room guys could be makingdifferent amounts of money.
(26:46):
You know you might have a guystruggling averaging four points
a game, making more money thansomeone that's averaging 12, 13
points a game.
Or at the end of a season hey,coach, I made 100,000 this year,
I'll come back for 250.
Otherwise I'm going to jump inthe portal.
You know all of these players.
Now they're allowed to signwith agents as long as they're
(27:07):
registered with the NCAA.
So now you have agents inplayers ears during the season,
the handshake lines hey, youknow, really love the way you
play, you want to make realmoney, come play with us?
Yeah, next year.
You know, so I don't like it,you know, I know everyone says,
(27:27):
well, coaches can leave wheneverthey want.
Yeah, you know, I get it, I getit.
I just don't know how youmanage it, how you make it
better.
I do think it's going to getworse before it gets better.
Less loyalty involved.
I think now it's all about howmuch money I can make.
It's become a social club forbasketball players the transfer
(27:50):
portal.
You have kids at the lowDivision I level, averaging 10
points a game, jumping in theportal looking for a payday.
If you're averaging 10 at thelow Division I level, you
probably belong at the lowDivision I level, probably
belong at the low Division Ilevel.
And there's going to be players, when it's all said and done in
(28:12):
late August, that are stuckwith no place to go.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Will, can you explain ?
I mean I know, but I want youto explain for me and the people
out there watching andlistening.
On the podcast, again, you'relistening to SoundOff with
Syncoff, sponsored by theSyncoff Realty Group.
We're with Will Brown, currentSt Rose women's coach.
His resume's out there, people.
So Kentucky, if you'relistening, I mean I'm sure you
(28:35):
deal well with Lexington, right?
I like blue, we all like greentoo Will explain the NIL and
sort of how this works.
So a player can a college andagain I'm paraphrasing here but
a college has a certain dollaramount in the piggy bank to
(28:56):
spend on that money and thenthey divvy it up to the players
and the players just get thatmoney.
Do they have to do anything?
Do they have to appear at acommercial?
Or it's here's 100 grand.
You're on our team.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
See, originally coaches weren't supposed to be
brokering deals during therecruiting process.
You know it was okay for thestudent athlete to go out and
broker their own deals.
You know and you know.
(29:30):
So now it you know, and again Idon't want to.
I'm not claiming to knowexactly what's happening, but
I've watched this.
You know closely and you knowthe NCAA.
I'm sure they know that dealsare being brokered.
(29:51):
You know coaches are going to,you know, joe Smith Ford and
talking to Joe Smith Ford andthey're wheeling and dealing.
It's going on.
And you know the NIL was meantfor players name, image and
likeness, for players to be ableto, you know, have a value
(30:12):
where they can make some money.
You know, based on you know,like you had mentioned, if a car
dealership wants to endorse aplayer and the player thinks
it's a good fit and the playerwants to work with the car
dealership, whether it's acertain amount of the player
wants to work with the cardealership, whether it's a
certain amount of social mediaposts or doing a commercial, you
know everything's supposed tobe registered, documented.
(30:34):
How did it come about?
You know you have to make surethat.
You know the head coach didn'ttake care of this himself or
nobody on the coaching staff,but it's become the wild wild
west.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I was just going to say that, literally just going
to say that.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yep, it's a free-for-all out there.
And all of these kids and Idon't blame them, they want to
cash in because they see otherkids cashing in.
And you know, I'd like tobelieve that athletic
departments all throughout thecountry are having NIL seminars
(31:10):
and they're meeting with eachteam and coaching staff to go
over the do's and the don'tslaws as well.
So, like the NCAA, I think hasto be careful, because if the
state of Florida says it's okayto do this, well, can the NCAA
(31:34):
prevent them from doing that?
So I think there's a lot thateveryone involved didn't really
understand or didn't expect, andnow I think nobody knows what
to do there's there's a lot ofunintended consequences.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
I think is the good the good term.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
And some intended yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
You know, let's, let's go back to your example,
because I talked to a lot ofcollege hoops, people to
television people, just variouspeople sort of in the know, and
a couple of people said and kindof the way you said, brian, I
think the nil is going to almostpolice itself in a way.
It's gonna, like you said, it'sprobably gonna get worse than
it's gonna get better.
But I'm gonna give you like oneof the things I pointed out to
(32:18):
them and they're like that's a,that's a, that's probably one of
the ways it's gonna policeitself.
So let's hear, hear me out onthis coach.
Um, you know, uh, sink off,sink off.
Volvo, right, gives a player youknow five hundred thousand
dollars to x university'sbasketball department.
They get, will brown's son tocome there?
(32:41):
Right, just hear me out.
They get your son to come there, or whatever.
I don't want to use your son.
Just, they get someone to comethere, johnny Jones to come
there.
Johnny gets 300 grand from theauto dealership.
Johnny hates the school, johnnydoesn't like it.
Johnny gets more moneysomewhere else.
That auto dealership just lost300 grand for a guy that wasn't
(33:04):
as good as advertised and thenbolted after one year.
Does the Sinkoff Volvo decideto give the college $300,000
again.
I mean right.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Well, that's a great point, because I've heard
stories that disgruntled playerswould wait until they got their
paychecks and then they'd quituntil they got their paychecks
and then they'd quit.
And then what a lot of peoplehaven't thought enough of is
when does donor fatigue set in?
Exactly Because originally,you're asking donors to donate
(33:40):
to university, to your athleticdepartment and to your football
or basketball program.
Okay, so those same people thatyou've been hitting up for
money year after year after year, those are the same people.
Now you have to add NIL to theask list.
And that happens when thoseplayers don't pan out or leave,
(34:02):
or leave Right.
So you know, and these powerfuldonors.
The other thing too is theyhave so much money that they can
influence whether people keeptheir jobs or lose their jobs on
a college campus as well theirjobs on a college campus as well
.
So I like to say it still isthe great unknown and it'll be
(34:29):
interesting to see how the NCAAhandles it moving forward.
But I'm not sure.
If you saw Purdue coach MattPainter talk about NIL the other
day and he said a lot of peoplethink the NIL was set up so the
programs with the deepestpockets can buy the best players
he goes, all NIL has done isallow the people that were
(34:51):
cheating before.
It's just made it legal forthem.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yep, I mean because we know I'm not saying you, I
know it happened.
I absolutely, because we knowI'm not saying you, I don't want
to, I know it happened.
I absolutely know it happened.
For decades it's been happening.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I can really appreciate a program like Purdue
, because I don't think thattheir program is going to live
and die with NIL.
If you look at their roster, Ihope that there's a McDonald's
All-American on their rosterroster I hope that there's a
McDonald's All-American on theirroster.
And Matt Painter, I think, isan old school coach where he
(35:29):
doesn't have the five stars oreven the four stars.
He gets good players and hedevelops them, whereas now it's
all right.
How many players can we buy,and some of these players you're
only going to have for seven oreight months, and what return
are you getting on thatinvestment?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Explain that okay, because back in the day and
we're talking when I startedfollowing College Hoops and even
up to what, five years ago, thetransferring we have the
transfer portal Transferring.
If you transferred you had tosit out one year.
I guess recently logan aaronhalt like he went to maryland
for grad school like turps baby,but those will grab transfers
(36:07):
right, right, right so you hadthe graduate transfer exception.
Now it's you can transfer.
Right and correct me if I'mwrong.
You can transfer, you don'thave to sit out a year and are
you allowed to transfer onlyonce?
Speaker 2 (36:19):
forget the covet time , because I know that was the
wild wild west, and this is whyyou know it's the wild wild west
on steroids, because now youcan transfer an unlimited amount
of times and be eligibleimmediately.
So there's no limit.
Four schools in four yearsthat's what you want to do.
If you can keep getting biggerpaychecks each step of the way,
(36:40):
you can make a lot of money playat four different schools.
I think the only thing thatyou're going to have to worry
about moving forward is you willhave to meet progress towards
degree requirements and, as youknow, when you transfer from
institution to institution,usually all of your credits do
not transfer with you.
So that's one thing that you dohave to be careful of.
(37:02):
To be eligible at your nextschool, you have to meet
progress towards degreerequirements, not really
difficult as a freshman or asophomore, but once you transfer
into your junior or senior year, that's where you're walking
that fine line with progresstowards degree.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
So you know, if you're at a mid-major and let's
go back to you at Albany and youdidn't really have to deal with
this prior to you during yourtenure obviously guys would
leave and you had you knowinstances where, whatever, but
by and large you didn't havesomeone looking for the better
payday Boy.
Doesn't this really hurt thisNIL and transfer portal?
(37:41):
Doesn't this really destroymid-majors?
I mean, look at all thetransfers.
Heck, my school got guys frommid-majors.
We're talking Maryland.
Look at all the transfers thatare going to leave these
mid-major schools to go to thebigger school and bigger payday.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Most coaches I talk to at the low-major and-major
Division I level aren'trecruiting freshmen.
They don't want a good freshmanbecause they know they're going
to be gone Now after a year.
They have a good year, they'regone.
But now some of them havechanged their tune a little bit
because kids are leavingregardless after one year.
It doesn't matter.
(38:16):
So their sell now is hey, we'llbe like the minor league, we'll
be like AAA or we'll be likethe prep school.
Come to us for a year, have agreat year and we'll help you
get to a higher level.
So there's a method to themadness.
I think coaches that areignoring it are going to
(38:37):
struggle.
The coaches that are trying tobe creative with their
recruiting are going to be thecoaches that thrive.
And every year is a new year.
Unfortunately, you could haveeight or nine new players on
your roster every single year.
So I think the ones that arebeing creative and open to
helping those young players moveon are going to reap the
(38:58):
benefits of it.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
All right.
So you're a coach at amid-major.
How are you?
I mean, I want you to peel backthe curtain a little bit when
you recruited.
But before I get into that, howare you?
Are you even if you're amid-major now?
Are you even looking at highschool freshmen Like I wouldn't
(39:21):
even know where to begin.
Your job was so difficultbefore.
I imagine it would be triplydifficult at a mid-major now.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, when I was at Albany, the only thing we ran
into was grad transfers, becauseif you graduated and had a year
to play, you can go anywhereyou wanted and you were eligible
right away.
So I lost Logan Aaron Hall toMaryland can go anywhere you
wanted and you were eligibleright away.
So I lost logan aaron hall tomaryland.
And the one that hurt us themost is I lost joe cremo to
villanova, who were thedefending national champions at
(39:49):
the time, and in that same yearI lost david nichols to florida
state, who was coming up in alead eight appearance.
We had won, I believe, 23 thatyear.
We would have been picked 1A or1B the following year with
Vermont and instead, becausethere was no transfer portal at
that time, I can't replace thosetwo guys Not guys that had
(40:17):
experience in your program, butyou can get two really talented
guys that could help you stay inthe top two or three in your
league.
You know now there's coachesthat this is the way it's going
with college recruiting rightnow Number one, priority
transfer portal, number two,junior college.
Number three, prep school and adistant fourth regular high
(40:40):
school kids Wow.
But now it's trickling down allthe way to division three.
So if you're a division twocoach, there's so many kids that
aren't being recruited at thehigh school and prep school
level.
You could steal a really goodplayer, but again he's leaving
after a year.
Right, the division three kids,a lot of them paying to go to
(41:01):
school, all right, if I have agood year, whether I'm a
freshman or a sophomore, I'lltransfer to Division II and I
can get a scholarship.
So it's going all the way downto Division III.
So I think all levels ofbasketball are being impacted
right now by the transfer portal.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
All right, let's talk a little bit about um, we'll
switch gears, because that Ifind that stuff so fascinating.
I love the inner workings of ofthe behind the scenes and
peeling back the curtain beforeI get into calipari.
Uh, let's talk a little bitabout how was it for you.
Let's go back to your, youalbany days.
How was it for you?
How difficult.
(41:38):
Because I've talked to so manycollege coaches and they said,
brian, we're grinding, we'redoing the game plans, we're
doing the season and then we'rerecruiting and forget the portal
, forget the NIL.
How difficult is that job torecruit and always be ahead of
the game and finding the nextdiamond in the rough.
How hard was that to do,especially at a mid-major?
(42:00):
Yeah, you know, diamond in therough.
How hard was that to do,especially at a mid-major.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah, you know, I think sometimes you can get
caught up in your season and beconsumed with your season, and
you need to be consumed withyour season.
You owe it to thestudent-athletes in your program
.
I always felt that the mostimportant you know, the student
athletes in our program are moreimportant than any recruit that
we potentially could get,because there's no guarantee
(42:26):
we're going to get that recruit.
So we had to really spend anawful lot of time with the
players in our program.
But recruiting is the lifelineof a program, as you know, and
you have to make sure you findthat balance.
You know, during off days, youknow every seventh day you have
to have off once your seasonstarts.
Well, coaches can't have off onthose days.
(42:48):
You have to get out and youhave to recruit.
So if you have a head coach andthree assistants, you have to
be out.
You have to be working thephones.
You have to be sending theemails.
You have to make the recruitsfeel important.
You have to be working thephones.
You have to be sending theemails.
You have to make the recruitsfeel important.
You have to be visible.
You have to show them love, butyou can't forget about the
student athletes that arecurrently in your program and
(43:09):
the season that you're, you knowthat you're in and you know for
us we're always trying to winan America's Conference
Championship.
You know, get to the NCAAtournament.
But it's a balancing act andyou have to find that happy
medium and, you know, findsomething that works for you as
a program.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
All right, before we get to Cal, let's talk about the
NCAA tournament and yourexperience in it, because we
just watched UConn, we watchedSouth Carolina on the women's
side.
You played in the women's side.
You played in the tournamentfive years.
You captured the Capital Regionalmost every time you were in
the tournament, especially goingback to 05-06, against that
(43:52):
talented UConn team.
What was the experience likefor you, coach, as head coach on
the biggest stage, getting theexposure and then, more
importantly, getting an exposurefor the Capital Region and for
your school?
Speaker 2 (44:06):
It's an unbelievable experience and I would tell kids
when we were recruiting them,you know, and the kids that were
in our program, you know, oneof the goals I had is to make
sure that every playerexperienced the NCAA tournament.
To me it's the biggest thing insports for a month I mean, it's
March Madness for four to fiveweeks.
(44:28):
Everyone, whether you're abasketball fan or not, follows
the NCAA tournament.
Because I look at it this way,there might be somebody that has
no interest in basketball, butthey graduated from a certain
school or wherever you work,there's an office pool.
So you're in an office pool andyou're following that.
(44:52):
But for me, from a selfishstandpoint as a head coach, my
first NCAA tournament I had anopportunity to coach against Jim
Calhoun Hall of Famer.
One of the other appearances wemade, I had a chance to match
wits with Coach K, you know.
And when you're in a one-bidleague, you know I'll use the
(45:15):
University at Albany, forinstance what it means to that
institution.
As far as you know applications, you know the application
process.
Our admissions department wouldalways tell me applications are
through the roof.
You know the advertising forthose two hours when we're on
(45:36):
CBS Sports and UAlbany isflashing.
You know, four of the fivegames that we played were really
tight games and the one gamethat wasn't the year we lost to
Virginia that's probably theyear that everyone picked us.
It's the year that picked us asthe upset special because the
year before we led UConn for 35minutes, you know, and I think
(46:04):
that's where the pressure reallygot to us we made one of our
first 18 shots against the proACC regular season champions,
game over.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I was at that game.
It was in Columbus.
Well, I'm sorry, glad towitness that.
No, no, no, it was.
It was look.
It was amazing to watch andcover.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
I was at the time, I was still at channel 10, but
people don't realize is we'recoming from a one-bid league, so
you can have a great regularseason and if you stumble on the
conference tournament you don'tget an opportunity.
Now, if a north carolina losesin the quarterfinals of the ACC
tournament, all right, did ourseed drop?
(46:43):
Are we going from a 2 to a 3, a3 to a 4, a 4 to a 5?
If you are a favorite in theconference tournament in the
America East Conference and youlose, your season's probably
over, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
It's tough.
All right, let's talk aboutCoach Calipari Going.
Toansas gets roughly eightmillion a year, a five-year deal
.
We're gonna have five milliondollars for the nil fund per
year.
Um, candidly, why does somebodyleave kentucky for arkansas?
Had he worn out his welcome?
Was he sick of the school?
(47:19):
Was the alumni sick of him?
What is your gut?
I mean, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Probably all of the above.
You know.
I think in this situation, youknow, john Calipari had a
certain way to go about runninghis program and recruiting-wise
it was all about getting thebest high school players in the
country.
I don't think there's a betterrecruiter in college basketball
(47:48):
than John Calipari, I agree.
But since COVID they'vestruggled a little bit in
regards to success in the NCAAtournament.
Pre-covid, what John Caliparidid was you know it's Hall of
Fame type stuff.
You know, and he is a Hall ofFamer Now, post-covid, you know
(48:11):
the game has gotten older andthe key is to get old and stay
old.
So if you have 18-year-oldfreshmen who, long-term, are
going to be tremendous pros, butyou're playing 23 and
24-year-old mid-major players orhigh-major players, it's hard
(48:36):
over six games, it's hard to wina national championship with
kids.
So I think you know some peoplesay he didn't adapt to that.
Okay, but that was his decision.
You know who's going to questionhim.
Look at his success.
His track record is, you know,second to none.
(48:57):
So I think what you mentionedearlier I think alumni maybe
were getting upset the fan basewhy isn't he maximizing the
transfer portal?
If he can get the best highschool players in the country.
He should be able to get thebest players out of the transfer
portal.
It's just a difference inphilosophy.
(49:20):
So I think he's like you knowwhat.
Maybe I'm not appreciated hereas much as I once was, so I'm
going to go build somethingspecial at a place like Arkansas
where they'll probably pay me asimilar amount.
I'll have unbelievableresources and NIL money and I'm
(49:40):
going to start fresh.
Maybe he just needs a freshstart.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Well, and you know you also have to look at all of
the lotto picks.
You know 35 lottery picks sincehe took over at Kentucky.
I'll be completely blunt withyou, and you know college kids
better than I do, for sure.
But you know a team with fouror five lotto picks.
I don't think they're stressingout over the second-round, but
you know a team with four orfive lotto picks.
I don't think they're stressingout over the second round game
(50:04):
against.
You know, gonzaga, I thinkthey're looking at the NBA draft
in two months.
I mean, just you know, are theydevastated they lost?
Yeah, they're upset, but arethey looking at the payday?
Absolutely, and that was almostevery guy on his roster.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yeah, well said, you know for them.
They're so young, you know theyknow they're going to be pros.
Life goes on and they forgetabout that quickly.
I think what a lot of people onthe outside don't realize is
the relationships that Caliparideveloped with those players.
You know, I look at DevinBooker.
He came off the bench forKentucky as a freshman at 18
(50:41):
years old.
How good would Devin Booker beat 20 at Kentucky?
How good would Reed Shepard beat 20 at Kentucky?
You know he was the freshman ofthe year.
I think he's projected as alottery pick right now
18-year-old kid.
He's not going to be atKentucky at 20.
He's going to be in the NBA,you know.
(51:05):
So would look at it this way too.
Brian, if Calipari didn't takethe McDonald's All-Americans but
he took guys that were rankedbetween 150 and 300 and they
stayed three years and they were18 and 12, would the fan base
be happy?
They wouldn't be happy, but yetthose kids stayed for three
(51:28):
years.
I think what they were probablylooking for is we want Devin
Booker, but we want also wantthe best player in a transfer
portal.
All right, we want Reed Shepard, but we want the best player in
a transfer portal.
Let's mix the young and old,but you know this is the last
year of the COVID players, right, you know.
(51:51):
But I think a lot of collegecoaches learn something through
COVID Get old, stay old.
So I don't think that's goingto change.
So it'll be interesting to seewhat he does at Arkansas, if he
uses the transfer portal more orif he's just going to take that
same philosophy of getting thebest McDonald's All-Americans
and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
And you look at UConn , the men's national champion.
What did they have?
Seniors transfers, young guys,guys that cut their teeth on the
bench a little bit.
In terms of Klingin, who wasthe big man who played 10
minutes last year, we did notsee that pre-COVID with the
(52:31):
bigger schools you saw rosterturnover almost every year.
There were very fewupperclassmen.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Look at the starting lineup for Utah Newton transfer
from East Carolina.
Spencer transfer from Rutgers,best player at Rutgers last year
.
Then look at Castle CastleDonald's all American freshman
caravan, red shirt, sophomore,all right.
(53:00):
And then Klingon, sophomore.
Both Caravan and Klingon werebrought in as high school guys.
So there's a nice mix, nicebalance.
There's six-man Diara transfer,I believe, from Virginia Tech.
You know Samson Johnson, thebackup center, you know was a
high school kid.
You know Samson Johnson, thebackup center, you know was a
(53:22):
high school kid.
So I think what Curley's doneis he's found the right mix of
high school and also transferportal and I saw him this
morning and this was reallyimpressive.
They asked him about hisrecruiting and what's important
to him and he said recruitingthe parents.
And then they're like can youelaborate on that?
(53:43):
He goes, yeah, he goes.
I don't want the parents thatare their son's basketball fans.
I want the parents that aregoing to hold their kid
accountable, that are going tokick them in the rear end, that
are going to get in their facebecause that's what I'm going to
do, and I want the parents thatare going to back me in the
rear end that are going to getin their face, because that's
what I'm going to do and I wantthe powers that are going to
(54:05):
back me up when I do it.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
And we should just point out on the side note that
UConn's, I think, the master ofthe offense, coach Murray, bill
Murray's son, right, caddyshackbaby.
How cool is that?
Like a lot of people you know,they thought this guy got the
gig because his dad's billmurray.
But the guy's like a seriousand his first name is escaping
me luke murray.
(54:26):
Yeah, but he's a seriousbasketball brain, isn't he?
Speaker 2 (54:31):
he's probably gonna get a job.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
He's gonna get a job somewhere, I'm sure the hard.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
The hard thing with a guy like him is he's making so
much money right now and he'llget her, he'll get a raise for
this national championship andthey have such a good thing
going that he can be selectivein what jobs he takes.
And the crazy thing is we allknow bill murray, we know
caddyshack and ghostbusters andall that stuff.
You know these young kids.
(54:55):
They have no idea they have noclue.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yeah, they have no clue who he is.
None, but I just I find thatlike that kind of got lost a
little bit over the last coupleof weeks.
Is you know this guy who Ithink is maybe the architect,
maybe the brains, of some ofthat offense?
It's just, you know such aHollywood family, so funny.
But Will we really appreciateyou coming on?
(55:20):
This was a great time and Iwish you luck in your future
endeavors.
You're a good guy, you're agreat coach and really
appreciate you taking the timewith me here.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
Well, I appreciate you having me on and I know
you're crushing it with yourreal estate business and, more
importantly, I love the factthat you're back in the sports
game with the podcast and youknow I'm probably going to be
your least famous guest becauseI know how you roll, but
hopefully you continue to dothis and I can jump back on
(55:54):
sometime in the future.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
We would love to have you and Will, you're my first
guest, so you will always beremembered for that.
But you were, on a serious note, you were always great with me
when we had SoundOff, withSyncOff and even going back to
the Channel 10 days.
You were one of the funniestinterviews and what I loved
about you, will and I'll justtell you this, I don't want to
embarrass you you understood howto play the game.
(56:17):
You knew media was important.
You never turned down aninterview good, bad or ugly and
that's what I respect about youand I really mean that.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Well, you were one of the true professionals and I
always appreciated the coverageand I know that you guys have a
really difficult job in themedia and we can't just lock the
coverage when things are goingwell.
We need to own it when we'restruggling and things aren't
going well, and you're always apleasure to work with.
(56:47):
So, you know, thank you verymuch and I'm looking forward to
watching this podcast grow,because I know you're going to
crush it.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Thanks, buddy Will.
Good luck to you.
Say hi to the family and goodluck in the future, like that,
catty.
Thank you all right, take care.
That is uh will brown, ofcourse.
Uh, you, albany, he is uh thehead coach of the great danes
and thanks so much for watchingsound off.
With sink off, plenty of greatguests coming along, as will
(57:16):
just said, and uh, we appreciateit.
Have a great day everybody.
And hello and welcome everyone to Sound Off with Sink
Off.
So glad you are with us heretoday.
Sound Off with Sink Off, ofcourse sponsored by the Sink Off
Realty Group right here in DelMar, new York.
Well, it's the second Sound Offwith Sink Off podcast and it is
my pleasure to bring in thecurrent St Rose women's
(00:20):
basketball coach and a goodfriend of mine.
I've known him for almost 20years.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Mr Will Brown Will welcome to Sound Off.
Thanks for having me.
It's good to see you back inthe sports game.
I know you really never left,but it's nice to see you hosting
this podcast and I appreciateyou asking me to come on.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Awesome.
Will we thank you for joiningme?
I know we're going to get intowomen's college hoops, like the
tournament.
We'll talk about the men UConnwinning the national
championship.
But first let's talk a littlebit about you.
You were named the St Rosewomen's coach in June of 23.
You find out in December, inthe middle of the beginning of
(01:03):
your season.
Your school is closing.
You managed to have a 21-7record.
You're 17-5 in the conference.
You get to the NCAA tournament.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
What was last year like for you professionally and
even personally.
I have to be honest with you.
You know, late May of 23, whenLaurie Ankle, the director of
athletics at St Rose, approachedme about the talk to your
family, talk to some people andkeep the lines of communication
open.
Then one day my wife just saidto me why don't you do it?
(01:57):
Why not?
We really want to stay in thearea.
We're not looking to relocateat this point in time.
Our older son was going to getready to play his senior season
in college over at Russell Sage.
So you know, coaches alwayslike to say why not us?
My wife looked at me and saidwhy not do it?
(02:18):
It'll be fun?
And then, you know, I took alittle more time, you know, did
my research and, you know,agreed to do it and, I have to
be honest with you, early on Iwas like a deer in headlights
trying to navigate through it,figure it out, you know, really
get to understand thesepersonalities and you know what
(02:40):
it was going to be like to coachwomen's basketball.
I had to try to add somerecruits, hire an assistant
coach and, you know, fastforward to the fall when classes
started and we started workingout.
You know it was just reallyenjoyable.
You know, I have to admit I hadno idea that the school was in
(03:01):
jeopardy of closing.
That came as a surprise.
There's no manual as far as howto handle these situations.
I don't know anyone that wentthrough a similar situation, so
we had to kind of navigate ittogether.
You know Lori, heradministration team, you know my
coaching staff, our players.
(03:22):
We just really stuck togetherand said, hey, instead of
hanging our heads, let's dealwith the adversity, let's
control the narrative, let's tryto do something special,
memorable, let's do somethingfor the institution and for all
the alumni that came throughthis program.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You know prior Will your team first in the country
in defensive points allowed.
Defensive field goal percentage.
Defensive three-point fieldgoal percentage?
You obviously no secret.
You coached at Albany from 2002to 2021.
You go to five NCAA tournaments.
How different was the women'sgame from the men's game?
(04:01):
Something that you really cutyour teeth in?
And that was the men's game.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
The games are definitely different.
I wasn't going into this naivethinking basketball is
basketball.
That would have been veryfoolish of me.
The rules are different, so Ihad to learn as much as I could
in a short period of time.
It's more of a below-the-rimgame but it also, as I found,
(04:27):
it's, an enjoyable game.
The players if they really knowthat you care about them and
that you can develop that trust,they'll do anything for you.
So we.
Once we became more familiarwith the personnel on our roster
, it became how do we put thisteam in the best position to be
(04:49):
successful?
How can this group play wherewe can win games?
Because I told them we aregoing to win.
I didn't tell them how manygames we were going to win this
senior class.
I was their third coach.
They had never experiencedwinning.
I told them we are going to win.
Just please trust me and trustCarly Boland, my assistant, and
(05:11):
embrace what we're asking you todo.
And it's the old saying defensetravels and it travels well
Every time we step on the floor.
If we defend and rebound, we'llhave a chance to win.
You're not going to make shots,you know, every night, but you
can defend and rebound andreally compete every night and
that's kind of what we hung ourhat on.
(05:32):
We're going to defend, we'regoing to rebound, we're going to
compete and we're going to bethe most prepared team in the
country and we felt that if theplayers bought in, that would be
good enough on most nights.
Our biggest challengethroughout the season is finding
where our next basket was goingto come from.
There were nights where westruggled mightily on the
(05:52):
offensive side of the ball.
But again, anyone that satbehind our bench during the game
heard me tell our team do whatwe do, don't waver from what we
do.
This is who we are and our kidsreally embraced it.
I'll tell you what.
Once I understood theirpersonalities and you know I was
(06:14):
told that on the woman's side,the student-athlete is a little
more sensitive, a little moreemotional Once I figured that
piece out you know it was smoothsailing.
I mean, this brew was anabsolute pleasure to coach.
I really think that they gaveme more than I gave them.
It helped me grow and develop.
And then the rules piece.
(06:35):
You know, under a minute to go,you call a timeout.
You can advance the ball Everyfree throw.
When you're in the bonus, it'sautomatic two shots.
You know that's something Iwasn't used to, so the last
couple of years have been goodfor me, going from coaching a
Division I men's game to theprofessional level to the
(06:55):
women's game.
It's really helped me grow andevolve as a coach and I think
that's what it's all about.
We always ask our players toget better, but what are we
doing as coaches to get better?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Will, of course, mentioned the pro game.
He coached the Albany Patroonsin the basketball league.
Will you had?
I mean, have you know have ball?
Will travel, will pardon thepun.
You have been successfuleverywhere you've been.
You win the.
You go to five NCAA tournamentsat Albany.
You go.
You coach the Patroons.
They're 29 and four.
(07:24):
You're the coach of the yearNortheast division champs,
eastern regional champs, easternconference champs.
That, how was that for you,coaching the Patroons?
How different was it?
I know it was drasticallydifferent from from being at
UAlbany, but how different wasthat experience and what did you
learn about yourself duringthat time?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I became a much more patient coach coaching the
Patroons.
One thing that I needed tounderstand, and understand
quickly, is you're not coachingcollege kids anymore, you're
coaching grown men and this istheir livelihood.
So, as much as they want toenjoy team success, they're
motivated to have individualsuccess because they're looking
to get their next job, whetherit's professionally overseas,
(08:09):
whether it's the NBA G League.
You know they all have goalsand some of them had families.
So this, this was a way forthem to provide for their
families.
So, yeah, you know I had, I hada great coaching staff with the
Patroons.
You know I had Brian Beery, thelongtime head coach at the
College of St Rose, on the men'sside, don Bassett, who was one
(08:30):
of George Carl's assistantsduring the CBA years with the
Albany Patroons, mark Ribsick,julie McBride.
So we had a tremendous staff.
I was able to lean on DonnieBassett quite a bit because of
his experiences coaching at theprofessional level.
Julie McBride had playedbasically 20 years.
She had a cup of coffee in theWNBA and then played over in
(08:55):
Europe for 18 or 19 years.
So just relying on my coachingstaff, understanding the types
of players that I was coaching,what motivated them, but also
trying to make sure that we wongames.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Will you know the college closes.
You're still on campus.
We see the pennant behind youBefore we went on the air here
you mentioned.
You're still there trying to.
You know, do the right thing byyour players get them figuring
out where they're going to go tocollege next year, since,
obviously, st Rose isn't anoption.
But the question for you iswhat are you doing next year?
(09:32):
I'm putting you on the spot,will.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, we had always takengreat pride in being part of
this community.
This is where we've raised ourfamily.
This is all my two sons know mywife's born and raised here, my
in-laws are here, my parentsare here.
So we're kind of at acrossroads right now, trying to
figure out are we really willingto relocate?
(09:58):
At what cost will we relocate?
At what cost will we relocate?
You know, I had opportunitiesthe last year or two to move to
the Midwest and work in the BigEast and it was going to be a
situation where I was going togo by myself because I had no
(10:19):
interest in becoming anassistant coach and this
opportunity was specialassistant to the head coach,
where I was able to be able towork with a first-time head
coach at a high level, kind ofmentor, teach um and have, uh,
and it took a role.
But my wife knew that's reallynot what I wanted to do.
So but she's, she's theultimate basketball wife and I
(10:40):
shouldn't even say basketballwife.
You know she's a great wife andshe's like I, basketball wife.
I shouldn't even say basketballwife.
You know she's a great wife andshe's like.
I know this isn't what you wantto really do, but go do it for
eight months and then come onback and we'll figure out the
next step.
So right now we're kind of innot in limbo but we're trying to
figure out what's best for thefamily, and then that's really
(11:04):
what it's going to come down to.
I'm open.
I'm open to the men's side orthe woman's side you know, throw
it out there.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Will your resume is out there and on this show your
resume is out there because willI know and I've known you for a
long time, we obviously have apersonal relationship.
But to prove if you knownothing about you, will brown, I
look at your resume and I gofive NCAA tournaments at Albany.
One year at the Patroons You'rethe GM.
You've never been a pro coach.
(11:31):
You lead them to a title andthen you take over St Rose who
basically, I don't say had thedeath penalty, but pretty much
did when you got there and youlead them to the NCAA tournament
.
So Will you can coach the oldlefty Drizelle I can coach.
Remember the old lefty quote?
Oh, lefty.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well, I appreciate that, brian, and you know, like
anything in this world today,it's so political out there and
you know you just look for agood opportunity that makes
sense and you know, if you canget one of those jobs that's in
the best interest of you andyour family and it makes sense,
then you know that's what we'lldo.
(12:10):
But there's a lot of people outthere I think getting the next
job is easy.
There's a lot of coaches outthere that want to be head
coaches and any time a headcoaching job opens up, you know
there's hundreds of candidates.
So you know's hundreds ofcandidates.
So you know something I'll uh,you know it always works itself
out.
So we're excited about the nextchapter and you know, I know
(12:31):
you're trying to push me out ofalbany here, but uh, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
No no, no, no.
Come on, all right, let's,let's switch gears, let's talk.
Uh, we'll talk.
We'll start with the women'sgame, because you obviously just
coach women's hoops, southCarolina.
They're undefeated, they winthe whole thing.
They beat Iowa in the finals.
Of course we saw Iowa here inAlbany.
I know you and your family wereat the games.
(12:56):
I'll be the first to tell youWill.
I mean, this is just me and youknow me.
I've always told the truth,especially on the air.
I watched more women'sbasketball, women's college
basketball, in the last twoweeks than I did in the previous
10 years.
That is no joke and I loved itand I think it's a testament to
what Caitlin Clark, southCarolina, dawn Staley, has done
for women's hoops Fair statementWith you.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I think Caitlin Clark has elevated the women's game
and made it cool to followwomen's basketball.
And one of the things thatannoys me and I've been on the
men's side forever, but one ofthe things that annoys me is on
the women's side everyone istalking about.
We have to elevate women'ssports and we need more people
(13:42):
paying attention to women'ssports, and then we have a
generational talent like KaitlynClark.
Come around and what does shedo?
She elevates women's basketballto an all-time level, and then
there's female athletes outthere basically taking shots at
her.
And I think that's somethingthat really bothers me because
(14:04):
there's, you know, every decade.
You know there's great playersthat have elevated the game.
It's just that it hasn'thappened at this level.
We've never seen it.
And you got to give a lot ofcredit to social media for this
as well and why.
You know the game has beenelevated.
But Caitlin's supporting castgood players, but she's not
(14:28):
playing with other McDonald'sAll-Americans, she's not playing
with anyone else that'll be inthe WNBA.
She took she took a chance onIowa and she elevated that
program.
So I think what she's done iseven more special than what some
of these other players thathave done that are chopping her
(14:49):
down.
But it's great to see.
But I also think we have tothrow Dawn Staley in the mix.
What she's done for the women'sgame, what she's done for the
program at South CarolinaHonestly, I mean they were
undefeated throughout theregular season.
A year ago they just stumbled inthe Final Four to a great
performance by Kaitlyn Clark andIowa.
(15:12):
Fast forward to this year.
You know, undefeated.
Again, they got the job done.
You know Doss Daly is anall-time great and I think that
again she's helped Kaitlyn Clarkyou know Clark elevate the game
of women's basketball and it'snot slowing down.
Juju Watkins from USC is goingto be an all-time great if she
(15:32):
stays healthy.
The two freshmen that come offthe bench for South Carolina
Tessa Johnson and Full Wileythey're both freshmen.
They can start at any otherprogram in the country.
They went to South Carolina,played for Gauss Daily and win
championships.
They're start at any otherprogram in the country.
They went to South Carolina,played for Goss Daily and win
championships.
They're waiting their turn.
You know it's just a great timeto be a women's college
(15:53):
basketball fan.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
You know my and I'll just be honest with you.
I feel like this as youmentioned this, the Caitlin
Clark and having her in Albanyand all the hype that went
around that, and she sets thescoring record from Maravich at
LSU back in the day Do you feellike a year from now we're going
to have the same excitement?
(16:15):
And I know we're looking into acrystal ball we're going to
have the same excitement aboutwomen's basketball?
Or and I'm going to just becompletely blunt with you Is
this like figure skating in theOlympics?
It was great now, and we'mgoing to just be completely
blunt with you is this likefigure skating in the Olympics?
It was great now and we'regoing to forget about it for the
next year or so.
You know what I mean.
I'm just interested to see howit pans out you know that's a
(16:36):
great question.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
The second leading scorer in the country this year
on the women's side, jujuWatkins, freshman from USC.
Nobody on the East Coast isgoing to see Juju Watkins play
next year.
You know the time difference.
You know Kaitlyn Clark's movingto the WNBA.
Will South Carolina be greatagain?
(16:58):
Probably so.
I hate to say this, but I thinkthat it's going to be a slow
process again.
It's going to take a couple ofsteps back.
People are going to wait andsee.
You know, I just think thisCaitlin Clark phenomenon it's
been building for four years.
It took time.
(17:18):
So I do think, unfortunately,it's probably going to take a
step or two backwards.
I hope it doesn't, but that'swhat I would guess at this point
in time.
I'm going to to take a step ortwo backwards.
I hope it doesn't, but that'swhat I would guess at this point
in time I'm going to give you asink or swim.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
You remember how it works.
You sink and you swim with me.
You sink, you disagree, youswim, you agree.
Um will, uh, caitlin clark, I'mgoing to say I have to.
I can't ask you a question.
I actually have to say it.
Kaitlyn Clark success in theNBA.
Not in the NBA, but the WNBA.
(17:49):
The WNBA sorry, the WNBA, sorry.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
I'm going to swim with Kaitlyn Clark because I
think she knows what she'swalking into and she'll be more
than prepared and unfortunately,I think the WNBA too many of
those players are waiting forher to try to knock her down and
you know, to try to say hey,you know this is where the real
(18:16):
players are, but she's more thanprepared because she doesn't
need to score to impact the game.
People don't realize.
Not only is she the bestthree-point shooter and best
scorer in college basketball,she's the best passer in college
basketball.
She makes her teammates betterand so few scorers have the
opportunity or the ability, Ishould say, to make their
(18:38):
teammates better by passing thebasketball.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Will, I will throw another sink or swim at you.
I'm going to say this CaitlinClark was the biggest story in
college hoops in the last 15years.
I'd say Jimmer the way he tookover.
And Caitlin Clark, are youswimming with that?
Just in terms of captured thecollege basketball landscape the
(19:03):
way no single player had.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I'm going to swim with that without hesitation.
And the reason I'm saying youput Caitlin in a category by
herself because she's got youngboys and young girls watching.
She's got women and meninterested.
(19:26):
I played pickleball four orfive mornings a week.
I've got 10 or 12 grown menthat I play with and for the
last couple of weeks all they'retalking about is Caitlin Clark.
When's the last time thatsomething like that has happened
?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
A long time.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I don't recall it.
So you know when you can, youknow when you have the eyes of
men and women, boys and girlsfrom all over the United States
and really all over the world.
You're special.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
All right, let's shift gears to the men's game.
Gosh, there's so much I want totalk to you about men's college
basketball.
Not only the game with UConnwinning their second straight,
but just the landscape of it andthe way the nil and the way the
portal has changed things.
Let's talk first about thecollege uh national championship
uconn winning their secondstraight um dominant fashion 75,
(20:20):
60, um.
Well, I, I've followed college.
I mean you obviously.
You obviously know way moreabout the sport than me, but I
followed college basketballsince like 79, 80.
I don't think I've ever seen anoffense do as many things as
Hurley's offense does.
Nobody stops moving.
It's unbelievable, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, the ball movement, the player movement,
the way that they bring Klanaway from the basket.
He handles the ball quite a bitat the top of the tee for them,
which opens up driving lanes.
Yeah, they do a lot of goodthings.
Very difficult to guard, a lotof misdirection.
Danny Hurley right now is thecoach in college basketball.
(21:06):
Back-to-back national titles.
The preparation, the way theyplayed both sides of the ball,
their game plan for Purdue wastremendous.
They were willing to give up 50to Edie but they were not going
to allow Purdue to shoot thethree and they were going to
force those small guards ofPurdue to make tough twos.
(21:30):
So Edie had 35, and UConn wonby nearly 20.
And you can't key in on wireFor UConn.
You take one player away, fourothers are going to beat you.
So I'm just so impressed withhow they play both sides of the
ball and how tough they are.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
You look at, they won back-to-back national
championships for the first timesince Florida.
And I remember old schoolUAlbany.
When you guys played Florida,you hung tough with them.
I think that was 05-06 year,wasn't it the year they won the
first national title 0-5-0-6,.
You all played them tough.
Talk about that real quickbecause that team was what?
(22:14):
Four or five NBA players I mean, they were ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, they had Joachim Noah Al Horford.
They had the long 6-6-6-7 wing.
I don't know why I can'tremember his name, but we went
down there and we were either upone or down one at the half.
But the last play of the firsthalf Jamar Wilson stole the ball
and goes down in transition,hard foul, he goes into the
(22:40):
basket, he comes up and he'slimping and he tweaked his groin
and played a little bit in thesecond half but he wasn't
effective.
He had gotten hurt.
But to see how good they were upclose and live, I mean big
physical and, like you said, abunch of those guys went on to
play in the NBA.
It's hard to win one Now thinkabout winning two.
(23:02):
You have to be good, you haveto stay healthy, you have to
have some luck on your side andyou have to have really good
coaching.
So I've got a greatappreciation for what Billy
Donovan did with that team atFlorida and what Danny Hurley
just accomplished.
What's going to be interestingat UConn, if he stays at UConn,
(23:23):
is can they win a third at UConn?
Is can they win a third?
Because I'm not sure who'sgoing to come back so they might
have, you know, a major rosterrebuild because of how many guys
they're going to have that areout of eligibility or that are
going to be selected in the NBAdraft.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Well, wait one second .
I got to get a plug for mycomputer.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I need one too.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Keep rolling, just keep rolling, rolling, just keep
rolling wait all right.
Well, that's a great point.
As far as florida, uh, and thenyukon who's coming back?
I think that one of the mostamazing things about the yukon
run was that hurley essentiallyhad almost a brand new team.
(24:05):
I mean, I think clin may haveled the team last year in
minutes, with like 10 minutesoff the bench, but everybody
else was either.
A transfer was new.
I mean, it was unbelievablethat he whereas Florida we
talked about them who you playedback in the day it was majority
of the same guys, the same core.
Uconn was completely differentand he still manages to get the
(24:27):
deal done.
That's what I found remarkableabout this second championship.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Well, nowadays I mean the world of college athletics
has changed.
You know those players thatwere at Florida.
They were going to stay atFlorida or go to the NBA.
Now we're in the world of NILand transfer portal and you know
instant success.
Nobody's waiting their turn,nobody's developing.
You know it's like hey, if I'mnot playing right now, I'm
(24:55):
leaving.
So it's a credit to you knowwhat Danny Hurley and his staff
have been able to do becauseit's difficult.
Roster management is yournumber one priority right now
and rosters are going to changefor the most part every year.
So if you can keep your coregroup together, you're going to
be way ahead of the game.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
All right, let's talk about that, because you led the
perfect transition segue, ifyou will, into my next point,
and that is the NIL, thelicensing agreement.
Players quote, unquoteunquotenow allowed to get paid through
these deals.
Clearly, the colleges with thedeepest pockets have more money
to spend, which are going toattract players from mid-majors,
(25:38):
like the UAlbanys, like theSiennas, like the Mac schools.
Do you like this?
I mean be honest, do you likethe way this is Not the way it's
transpired, but the idea?
Because, personally me, brianSinkoff, I hate it, but let me
hear your thoughts before itgets better.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
But I will say this I'm more of an old soul, an old
school mentality.
There's not much of anappreciation anymore for a
scholarship, but I do thinkeveryone else is making money
off these student-athletes.
I do think the student-athletesdeserve an opportunity to make
(26:24):
some money.
The problem that I have is NILwas supposed to it wasn't
supposed to be pay for playRight, and that's exactly what
it is.
It's basically like thecolleges are now like minor
league systems you know you'repaying and then in the same
locker room guys could be makingdifferent amounts of money.
(26:46):
You know you might have a guystruggling averaging four points
a game, making more money thansomeone that's averaging 12, 13
points a game.
Or at the end of a season hey,coach, I made 100,000 this year,
I'll come back for 250.
Otherwise I'm going to jump inthe portal.
You know all of these players.
Now they're allowed to signwith agents as long as they're
(27:07):
registered with the NCAA.
So now you have agents inplayers ears during the season,
the handshake lines hey, youknow, really love the way you
play, you want to make realmoney, come play with us?
Yeah, next year.
You know, so I don't like it,you know, I know everyone says,
(27:27):
well, coaches can leave wheneverthey want.
Yeah, you know, I get it, I getit.
I just don't know how youmanage it, how you make it
better.
I do think it's going to getworse before it gets better.
Less loyalty involved.
I think now it's all about howmuch money I can make.
It's become a social club forbasketball players the transfer
(27:50):
portal.
You have kids at the lowDivision I level, averaging 10
points a game, jumping in theportal looking for a payday.
If you're averaging 10 at thelow Division I level, you
probably belong at the lowDivision I level, probably
belong at the low Division Ilevel.
And there's going to be players, when it's all said and done in
(28:12):
late August, that are stuckwith no place to go.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Will, can you explain ?
I mean I know, but I want youto explain for me and the people
out there watching andlistening.
On the podcast, again, you'relistening to SoundOff with
Syncoff, sponsored by theSyncoff Realty Group.
We're with Will Brown, currentSt Rose women's coach.
His resume's out there, people.
So Kentucky, if you'relistening, I mean I'm sure you
(28:35):
deal well with Lexington, right?
I like blue, we all like greentoo Will explain the NIL and
sort of how this works.
So a player can a college andagain I'm paraphrasing here but
a college has a certain dollaramount in the piggy bank to
(28:56):
spend on that money and thenthey divvy it up to the players
and the players just get thatmoney.
Do they have to do anything?
Do they have to appear at acommercial?
Or it's here's 100 grand.
You're on our team.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
See, originally coaches weren't supposed to be
brokering deals during therecruiting process.
You know it was okay for thestudent athlete to go out and
broker their own deals.
You know and you know.
(29:30):
So now it you know, and again Idon't want to.
I'm not claiming to knowexactly what's happening, but
I've watched this.
You know closely and you knowthe NCAA.
I'm sure they know that dealsare being brokered.
(29:51):
You know coaches are going to,you know, joe Smith Ford and
talking to Joe Smith Ford andthey're wheeling and dealing.
It's going on.
And you know the NIL was meantfor players name, image and
likeness, for players to be ableto, you know, have a value
(30:12):
where they can make some money.
You know, based on you know,like you had mentioned, if a car
dealership wants to endorse aplayer and the player thinks
it's a good fit and the playerwants to work with the car
dealership, whether it's acertain amount of the player
wants to work with the cardealership, whether it's a
certain amount of social mediaposts or doing a commercial, you
know everything's supposed tobe registered, documented.
(30:34):
How did it come about?
You know you have to make surethat.
You know the head coach didn'ttake care of this himself or
nobody on the coaching staff,but it's become the wild wild
west.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I was just going to say that, literally just going
to say that.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yep, it's a free-for-all out there.
And all of these kids and Idon't blame them, they want to
cash in because they see otherkids cashing in.
And you know, I'd like tobelieve that athletic
departments all throughout thecountry are having NIL seminars
(31:10):
and they're meeting with eachteam and coaching staff to go
over the do's and the don'tslaws as well.
So, like the NCAA, I think hasto be careful, because if the
state of Florida says it's okayto do this, well, can the NCAA
(31:34):
prevent them from doing that?
So I think there's a lot thateveryone involved didn't really
understand or didn't expect, andnow I think nobody knows what
to do there's there's a lot ofunintended consequences.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
I think is the good the good term.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
And some intended yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
You know, let's, let's go back to your example,
because I talked to a lot ofcollege hoops, people to
television people, just variouspeople sort of in the know, and
a couple of people said and kindof the way you said, brian, I
think the nil is going to almostpolice itself in a way.
It's gonna, like you said, it'sprobably gonna get worse than
it's gonna get better.
But I'm gonna give you like oneof the things I pointed out to
(32:18):
them and they're like that's a,that's a, that's probably one of
the ways it's gonna policeitself.
So let's hear, hear me out onthis coach.
Um, you know, uh, sink off,sink off.
Volvo, right, gives a player youknow five hundred thousand
dollars to x university'sbasketball department.
They get, will brown's son tocome there?
(32:41):
Right, just hear me out.
They get your son to come there, or whatever.
I don't want to use your son.
Just, they get someone to comethere, johnny Jones to come
there.
Johnny gets 300 grand from theauto dealership.
Johnny hates the school, johnnydoesn't like it.
Johnny gets more moneysomewhere else.
That auto dealership just lost300 grand for a guy that wasn't
(33:04):
as good as advertised and thenbolted after one year.
Does the Sinkoff Volvo decideto give the college $300,000
again.
I mean right.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Well, that's a great point, because I've heard
stories that disgruntled playerswould wait until they got their
paychecks and then they'd quituntil they got their paychecks
and then they'd quit.
And then what a lot of peoplehaven't thought enough of is
when does donor fatigue set in?
Exactly Because originally,you're asking donors to donate
(33:40):
to university, to your athleticdepartment and to your football
or basketball program.
Okay, so those same people thatyou've been hitting up for
money year after year after year, those are the same people.
Now you have to add NIL to theask list.
And that happens when thoseplayers don't pan out or leave,
(34:02):
or leave Right.
So you know, and these powerfuldonors.
The other thing too is theyhave so much money that they can
influence whether people keeptheir jobs or lose their jobs on
a college campus as well theirjobs on a college campus as well
.
So I like to say it still isthe great unknown and it'll be
(34:29):
interesting to see how the NCAAhandles it moving forward.
But I'm not sure.
If you saw Purdue coach MattPainter talk about NIL the other
day and he said a lot of peoplethink the NIL was set up so the
programs with the deepestpockets can buy the best players
he goes, all NIL has done isallow the people that were
(34:51):
cheating before.
It's just made it legal forthem.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yep, I mean because we know I'm not saying you, I
know it happened.
I absolutely, because we knowI'm not saying you, I don't want
to, I know it happened.
I absolutely know it happened.
For decades it's been happening.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I can really appreciate a program like Purdue
, because I don't think thattheir program is going to live
and die with NIL.
If you look at their roster, Ihope that there's a McDonald's
All-American on their rosterroster I hope that there's a
McDonald's All-American on theirroster.
And Matt Painter, I think, isan old school coach where he
(35:29):
doesn't have the five stars oreven the four stars.
He gets good players and hedevelops them, whereas now it's
all right.
How many players can we buy,and some of these players you're
only going to have for seven oreight months, and what return
are you getting on thatinvestment?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Explain that okay, because back in the day and
we're talking when I startedfollowing College Hoops and even
up to what, five years ago, thetransferring we have the
transfer portal Transferring.
If you transferred you had tosit out one year.
I guess recently logan aaronhalt like he went to maryland
for grad school like turps baby,but those will grab transfers
(36:07):
right, right, right so you hadthe graduate transfer exception.
Now it's you can transfer.
Right and correct me if I'mwrong.
You can transfer, you don'thave to sit out a year and are
you allowed to transfer onlyonce?
Speaker 2 (36:19):
forget the covet time , because I know that was the
wild wild west, and this is whyyou know it's the wild wild west
on steroids, because now youcan transfer an unlimited amount
of times and be eligibleimmediately.
So there's no limit.
Four schools in four yearsthat's what you want to do.
If you can keep getting biggerpaychecks each step of the way,
(36:40):
you can make a lot of money playat four different schools.
I think the only thing thatyou're going to have to worry
about moving forward is you willhave to meet progress towards
degree requirements and, as youknow, when you transfer from
institution to institution,usually all of your credits do
not transfer with you.
So that's one thing that you dohave to be careful of.
(37:02):
To be eligible at your nextschool, you have to meet
progress towards degreerequirements, not really
difficult as a freshman or asophomore, but once you transfer
into your junior or senior year, that's where you're walking
that fine line with progresstowards degree.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
So you know, if you're at a mid-major and let's
go back to you at Albany and youdidn't really have to deal with
this prior to you during yourtenure obviously guys would
leave and you had you knowinstances where, whatever, but
by and large you didn't havesomeone looking for the better
payday Boy.
Doesn't this really hurt thisNIL and transfer portal?
(37:41):
Doesn't this really destroymid-majors?
I mean, look at all thetransfers.
Heck, my school got guys frommid-majors.
We're talking Maryland.
Look at all the transfers thatare going to leave these
mid-major schools to go to thebigger school and bigger payday.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Most coaches I talk to at the low-major and-major
Division I level aren'trecruiting freshmen.
They don't want a good freshmanbecause they know they're going
to be gone Now after a year.
They have a good year, they'regone.
But now some of them havechanged their tune a little bit
because kids are leavingregardless after one year.
It doesn't matter.
(38:16):
So their sell now is hey, we'llbe like the minor league, we'll
be like AAA or we'll be likethe prep school.
Come to us for a year, have agreat year and we'll help you
get to a higher level.
So there's a method to themadness.
I think coaches that areignoring it are going to
(38:37):
struggle.
The coaches that are trying tobe creative with their
recruiting are going to be thecoaches that thrive.
And every year is a new year.
Unfortunately, you could haveeight or nine new players on
your roster every single year.
So I think the ones that arebeing creative and open to
helping those young players moveon are going to reap the
(38:58):
benefits of it.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
All right.
So you're a coach at amid-major.
How are you?
I mean, I want you to peel backthe curtain a little bit when
you recruited.
But before I get into that, howare you?
Are you even if you're amid-major now?
Are you even looking at highschool freshmen Like I wouldn't
(39:21):
even know where to begin.
Your job was so difficultbefore.
I imagine it would be triplydifficult at a mid-major now.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, when I was at Albany, the only thing we ran
into was grad transfers, becauseif you graduated and had a year
to play, you can go anywhereyou wanted and you were eligible
right away.
So I lost Logan Aaron Hall toMaryland can go anywhere you
wanted and you were eligibleright away.
So I lost logan aaron hall tomaryland.
And the one that hurt us themost is I lost joe cremo to
villanova, who were thedefending national champions at
(39:49):
the time, and in that same yearI lost david nichols to florida
state, who was coming up in alead eight appearance.
We had won, I believe, 23 thatyear.
We would have been picked 1A or1B the following year with
Vermont and instead, becausethere was no transfer portal at
that time, I can't replace thosetwo guys Not guys that had
(40:17):
experience in your program, butyou can get two really talented
guys that could help you stay inthe top two or three in your
league.
You know now there's coachesthat this is the way it's going
with college recruiting rightnow Number one, priority
transfer portal, number two,junior college.
Number three, prep school and adistant fourth regular high
(40:40):
school kids Wow.
But now it's trickling down allthe way to division three.
So if you're a division twocoach, there's so many kids that
aren't being recruited at thehigh school and prep school
level.
You could steal a really goodplayer, but again he's leaving
after a year.
Right, the division three kids,a lot of them paying to go to
(41:01):
school, all right, if I have agood year, whether I'm a
freshman or a sophomore, I'lltransfer to Division II and I
can get a scholarship.
So it's going all the way downto Division III.
So I think all levels ofbasketball are being impacted
right now by the transfer portal.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
All right, let's talk a little bit about um, we'll
switch gears, because that Ifind that stuff so fascinating.
I love the inner workings of ofthe behind the scenes and
peeling back the curtain beforeI get into calipari.
Uh, let's talk a little bitabout how was it for you.
Let's go back to your, youalbany days.
How was it for you?
How difficult.
(41:38):
Because I've talked to so manycollege coaches and they said,
brian, we're grinding, we'redoing the game plans, we're
doing the season and then we'rerecruiting and forget the portal
, forget the NIL.
How difficult is that job torecruit and always be ahead of
the game and finding the nextdiamond in the rough.
How hard was that to do,especially at a mid-major?
(42:00):
Yeah, you know, diamond in therough.
How hard was that to do,especially at a mid-major.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah, you know, I think sometimes you can get
caught up in your season and beconsumed with your season, and
you need to be consumed withyour season.
You owe it to thestudent-athletes in your program
.
I always felt that the mostimportant you know, the student
athletes in our program are moreimportant than any recruit that
we potentially could get,because there's no guarantee
(42:26):
we're going to get that recruit.
So we had to really spend anawful lot of time with the
players in our program.
But recruiting is the lifelineof a program, as you know, and
you have to make sure you findthat balance.
You know, during off days, youknow every seventh day you have
to have off once your seasonstarts.
Well, coaches can't have off onthose days.
(42:48):
You have to get out and youhave to recruit.
So if you have a head coach andthree assistants, you have to
be out.
You have to be working thephones.
You have to be sending theemails.
You have to make the recruitsfeel important.
You have to be working thephones.
You have to be sending theemails.
You have to make the recruitsfeel important.
You have to be visible.
You have to show them love, butyou can't forget about the
student athletes that arecurrently in your program and
(43:09):
the season that you're, you knowthat you're in and you know for
us we're always trying to winan America's Conference
Championship.
You know, get to the NCAAtournament.
But it's a balancing act andyou have to find that happy
medium and, you know, findsomething that works for you as
a program.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
All right, before we get to Cal, let's talk about the
NCAA tournament and yourexperience in it, because we
just watched UConn, we watchedSouth Carolina on the women's
side.
You played in the women's side.
You played in the tournamentfive years.
You captured the Capital Regionalmost every time you were in
the tournament, especially goingback to 05-06, against that
(43:52):
talented UConn team.
What was the experience likefor you, coach, as head coach on
the biggest stage, getting theexposure and then, more
importantly, getting an exposurefor the Capital Region and for
your school?
Speaker 2 (44:06):
It's an unbelievable experience and I would tell kids
when we were recruiting them,you know, and the kids that were
in our program, you know, oneof the goals I had is to make
sure that every playerexperienced the NCAA tournament.
To me it's the biggest thing insports for a month I mean, it's
March Madness for four to fiveweeks.
(44:28):
Everyone, whether you're abasketball fan or not, follows
the NCAA tournament.
Because I look at it this way,there might be somebody that has
no interest in basketball, butthey graduated from a certain
school or wherever you work,there's an office pool.
So you're in an office pool andyou're following that.
(44:52):
But for me, from a selfishstandpoint as a head coach, my
first NCAA tournament I had anopportunity to coach against Jim
Calhoun Hall of Famer.
One of the other appearances wemade, I had a chance to match
wits with Coach K, you know.
And when you're in a one-bidleague, you know I'll use the
(45:15):
University at Albany, forinstance what it means to that
institution.
As far as you know applications, you know the application
process.
Our admissions department wouldalways tell me applications are
through the roof.
You know the advertising forthose two hours when we're on
(45:36):
CBS Sports and UAlbany isflashing.
You know, four of the fivegames that we played were really
tight games and the one gamethat wasn't the year we lost to
Virginia that's probably theyear that everyone picked us.
It's the year that picked us asthe upset special because the
year before we led UConn for 35minutes, you know, and I think
(46:04):
that's where the pressure reallygot to us we made one of our
first 18 shots against the proACC regular season champions,
game over.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I was at that game.
It was in Columbus.
Well, I'm sorry, glad towitness that.
No, no, no, it was.
It was look.
It was amazing to watch andcover.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
I was at the time, I was still at channel 10, but
people don't realize is we'recoming from a one-bid league, so
you can have a great regularseason and if you stumble on the
conference tournament you don'tget an opportunity.
Now, if a north carolina losesin the quarterfinals of the ACC
tournament, all right, did ourseed drop?
(46:43):
Are we going from a 2 to a 3, a3 to a 4, a 4 to a 5?
If you are a favorite in theconference tournament in the
America East Conference and youlose, your season's probably
over, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
It's tough.
All right, let's talk aboutCoach Calipari Going.
Toansas gets roughly eightmillion a year, a five-year deal
.
We're gonna have five milliondollars for the nil fund per
year.
Um, candidly, why does somebodyleave kentucky for arkansas?
Had he worn out his welcome?
Was he sick of the school?
(47:19):
Was the alumni sick of him?
What is your gut?
I mean, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Probably all of the above.
You know.
I think in this situation, youknow, john Calipari had a
certain way to go about runninghis program and recruiting-wise
it was all about getting thebest high school players in the
country.
I don't think there's a betterrecruiter in college basketball
(47:48):
than John Calipari, I agree.
But since COVID they'vestruggled a little bit in
regards to success in the NCAAtournament.
Pre-covid, what John Caliparidid was you know it's Hall of
Fame type stuff.
You know, and he is a Hall ofFamer Now, post-covid, you know
(48:11):
the game has gotten older andthe key is to get old and stay
old.
So if you have 18-year-oldfreshmen who, long-term, are
going to be tremendous pros, butyou're playing 23 and
24-year-old mid-major players orhigh-major players, it's hard
(48:36):
over six games, it's hard to wina national championship with
kids.
So I think you know some peoplesay he didn't adapt to that.
Okay, but that was his decision.
You know who's going to questionhim.
Look at his success.
His track record is, you know,second to none.
(48:57):
So I think what you mentionedearlier I think alumni maybe
were getting upset the fan basewhy isn't he maximizing the
transfer portal?
If he can get the best highschool players in the country.
He should be able to get thebest players out of the transfer
portal.
It's just a difference inphilosophy.
(49:20):
So I think he's like you knowwhat.
Maybe I'm not appreciated hereas much as I once was, so I'm
going to go build somethingspecial at a place like Arkansas
where they'll probably pay me asimilar amount.
I'll have unbelievableresources and NIL money and I'm
(49:40):
going to start fresh.
Maybe he just needs a freshstart.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Well, and you know you also have to look at all of
the lotto picks.
You know 35 lottery picks sincehe took over at Kentucky.
I'll be completely blunt withyou, and you know college kids
better than I do, for sure.
But you know a team with fouror five lotto picks.
I don't think they're stressingout over the second-round, but
you know a team with four orfive lotto picks.
I don't think they're stressingout over the second round game
(50:04):
against.
You know, gonzaga, I thinkthey're looking at the NBA draft
in two months.
I mean, just you know, are theydevastated they lost?
Yeah, they're upset, but arethey looking at the payday?
Absolutely, and that was almostevery guy on his roster.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yeah, well said, you know for them.
They're so young, you know theyknow they're going to be pros.
Life goes on and they forgetabout that quickly.
I think what a lot of people onthe outside don't realize is
the relationships that Caliparideveloped with those players.
You know, I look at DevinBooker.
He came off the bench forKentucky as a freshman at 18
(50:41):
years old.
How good would Devin Booker beat 20 at Kentucky?
How good would Reed Shepard beat 20 at Kentucky?
You know he was the freshman ofthe year.
I think he's projected as alottery pick right now
18-year-old kid.
He's not going to be atKentucky at 20.
He's going to be in the NBA,you know.
(51:05):
So would look at it this way too.
Brian, if Calipari didn't takethe McDonald's All-Americans but
he took guys that were rankedbetween 150 and 300 and they
stayed three years and they were18 and 12, would the fan base
be happy?
They wouldn't be happy, but yetthose kids stayed for three
(51:28):
years.
I think what they were probablylooking for is we want Devin
Booker, but we want also wantthe best player in a transfer
portal.
All right, we want Reed Shepard, but we want the best player in
a transfer portal.
Let's mix the young and old,but you know this is the last
year of the COVID players, right, you know.
(51:51):
But I think a lot of collegecoaches learn something through
COVID Get old, stay old.
So I don't think that's goingto change.
So it'll be interesting to seewhat he does at Arkansas, if he
uses the transfer portal more orif he's just going to take that
same philosophy of getting thebest McDonald's All-Americans
and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
And you look at UConn , the men's national champion.
What did they have?
Seniors transfers, young guys,guys that cut their teeth on the
bench a little bit.
In terms of Klingin, who wasthe big man who played 10
minutes last year, we did notsee that pre-COVID with the
(52:31):
bigger schools you saw rosterturnover almost every year.
There were very fewupperclassmen.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Look at the starting lineup for Utah Newton transfer
from East Carolina.
Spencer transfer from Rutgers,best player at Rutgers last year
.
Then look at Castle CastleDonald's all American freshman
caravan, red shirt, sophomore,all right.
(53:00):
And then Klingon, sophomore.
Both Caravan and Klingon werebrought in as high school guys.
So there's a nice mix, nicebalance.
There's six-man Diara transfer,I believe, from Virginia Tech.
You know Samson Johnson, thebackup center, you know was a
high school kid.
You know Samson Johnson, thebackup center, you know was a
(53:22):
high school kid.
So I think what Curley's doneis he's found the right mix of
high school and also transferportal and I saw him this
morning and this was reallyimpressive.
They asked him about hisrecruiting and what's important
to him and he said recruitingthe parents.
And then they're like can youelaborate on that?
(53:43):
He goes, yeah, he goes.
I don't want the parents thatare their son's basketball fans.
I want the parents that aregoing to hold their kid
accountable, that are going tokick them in the rear end, that
are going to get in their facebecause that's what I'm going to
do, and I want the parents thatare going to back me in the
rear end that are going to getin their face, because that's
what I'm going to do and I wantthe powers that are going to
(54:05):
back me up when I do it.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
And we should just point out on the side note that
UConn's, I think, the master ofthe offense, coach Murray, bill
Murray's son, right, caddyshackbaby.
How cool is that?
Like a lot of people you know,they thought this guy got the
gig because his dad's billmurray.
But the guy's like a seriousand his first name is escaping
me luke murray.
(54:26):
Yeah, but he's a seriousbasketball brain, isn't he?
Speaker 2 (54:31):
he's probably gonna get a job.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
He's gonna get a job somewhere, I'm sure the hard.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
The hard thing with a guy like him is he's making so
much money right now and he'llget her, he'll get a raise for
this national championship andthey have such a good thing
going that he can be selectivein what jobs he takes.
And the crazy thing is we allknow bill murray, we know
caddyshack and ghostbusters andall that stuff.
You know these young kids.
(54:55):
They have no idea they have noclue.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yeah, they have no clue who he is.
None, but I just I find thatlike that kind of got lost a
little bit over the last coupleof weeks.
Is you know this guy who Ithink is maybe the architect,
maybe the brains, of some ofthat offense?
It's just, you know such aHollywood family, so funny.
But Will we really appreciateyou coming on?
(55:20):
This was a great time and Iwish you luck in your future
endeavors.
You're a good guy, you're agreat coach and really
appreciate you taking the timewith me here.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
Well, I appreciate you having me on and I know
you're crushing it with yourreal estate business and, more
importantly, I love the factthat you're back in the sports
game with the podcast and youknow I'm probably going to be
your least famous guest becauseI know how you roll, but
hopefully you continue to dothis and I can jump back on
(55:54):
sometime in the future.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
We would love to have you and Will, you're my first
guest, so you will always beremembered for that.
But you were, on a serious note, you were always great with me
when we had SoundOff, withSyncOff and even going back to
the Channel 10 days.
You were one of the funniestinterviews and what I loved
about you, will and I'll justtell you this, I don't want to
embarrass you you understood howto play the game.
(56:17):
You knew media was important.
You never turned down aninterview good, bad or ugly and
that's what I respect about youand I really mean that.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Well, you were one of the true professionals and I
always appreciated the coverageand I know that you guys have a
really difficult job in themedia and we can't just lock the
coverage when things are goingwell.
We need to own it when we'restruggling and things aren't
going well, and you're always apleasure to work with.
(56:47):
So, you know, thank you verymuch and I'm looking forward to
watching this podcast grow,because I know you're going to
crush it.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Thanks, buddy Will.
Good luck to you.
Say hi to the family and goodluck in the future, like that,
catty.
Thank you all right, take care.
That is uh will brown, ofcourse.
Uh, you, albany, he is uh thehead coach of the great danes
and thanks so much for watchingsound off.
With sink off, plenty of greatguests coming along, as will
(57:16):
just said, and uh, we appreciateit.
Have a great day everybody.
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