December 10, 2023 • 52 mins
Join us as we get down and groovy with Chris Pennant, the ska enthusiast whose life was changed by this music. It’s not just about the music—it’s about the movement. Ska dance floors are dynamic spaces of expression, a sentiment Chris echoes as he shares his experiences from Midwest Ska Fest and beyond. This genre, a product of post-World War II sentiment, is an audacious blend of technology, colonialism, and cultural cross-pollination. We also delve into the unique laws of Jamaica that influenced the early ska scene and the lasting impact of artists like Don Drummond and the Skatalites.
As we wrap up, we dissect the cultural influence of ska music and the importance of acknowledging its technicality and musicality. We also share music recommendations and chat about the role of social media in the genre's evolution. Tune in, get ready to skank, and join us in breaking down the stereotypes associated with ska music. This isn’t just a podcast episode—it’s a lively celebration of ska music and its unique, captivating pull.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrew (00:17):
Alright hello! Welcome to Sound Sagas we've got another
episode for you.
We are here with an interview.
We have a special guest here,Chris Pennant.
My name is Andrew, of course,and of course we have Will.
Will (00:29):
Yep and Chris is a former Jewel Osco employee, avid
walker, and chicken tenderenthusiast.
Sure, yeah, but I'll pass themic to you.
Why are we here today?
Chris (00:42):
Oh well, not to talk about the chicken tenders,
unfortunately, because I thinkthat's really important.
There was somebody who wentaround a while back and tried to
find the best tacos in the city, which I still want to do, but
there's a space to find the bestchicken tenders in the city,
but when?
Will (00:57):
you think of ska?
Chris (00:58):
Will.
What's the first thing youthink of?
Andrew (01:02):
Don't say chicken tenders.
That's all you have.
That's all you have.
Will (01:07):
Brass instruments, skanking, I mean it could go on,
but that's kind of straightwhere my head is.
What's your?
Chris (01:16):
experience, because it's about experiences in the music
as much as the music itself.
Right, totally.
Will (01:23):
I mean, I'd say one of my seminal experiences was I was
really into that band, real BigFish, went to a lot of their
shows and one of the best showsI ever went to was one of their
shows and my car got towed.
And that was the first reallife.
(01:44):
Yeah, I felt that way because I was deciding at the
show.
It's like my car is probablygoing to get towed Should I go
fix this or should I stay here,and I decided to stay there.
Andrew (01:55):
Were you enough into Real Big Fish where it was like
that didn't matter, that's whathappened?
Will (01:59):
Yeah, that's wild, yeah, and my dad got mad at me but I
was like yeah it was a greatshow.
Chris (02:03):
Yeah, Real Big Fish.
You know what?
That's actually really cool.
Will (02:06):
Yeah, and then I later on got into the more classic like
specials and scatolites andstuff like that.
Andrew (02:12):
What era was this in your life?
Real Big Fish.
That show was 2005.
Okay, did this get you intolike?
Did Scott get you into like?
Perhaps like punky era or likemore dynamic?
Will (02:22):
I think it was a gateway music into more punk and
hardcore stuff too.
Yeah, cool it was interesting.
Yeah.
Chris (02:29):
Well, that's it's.
I had a kind of a culture clashbetween the two because so my,
my dad, was Jamaican.
He didn't stick around longerthan I think I was one, but I
found out.
But my mom told me a lot abouthim and she had music that he
liked, she liked.
They both liked recordings ofthem singing this stuff into,
(02:50):
you know, a recorder like amicrophone at home.
Will (02:53):
Oh, wow.
Chris (02:56):
So I I eventually, as I, as my life went on, I got into
some of this music.
But when I was in high school Iwas a St Ignatius and I played
trombone from grade school upthrough high school, up through
college, I passed that.
And my good friend Danny Lopak.
Shout out to Danny, still agreat musician in his own right.
He was a musician in the UICMusic Program.
(03:17):
He was in a Celtic rock band inmy freshman year when I met him
and I thought this kid was thecoolest.
He knows he's not cool, hethinks he is, but he knows he's
not.
But he was.
He was different.
He was wearing like flat Irishcaps and and he had punk rock
patches all over his jacket andI wanted to be in this band more
(03:40):
than anything that I had that Ihad done at that point.
And he was like well, there'sno trump, there's no trump bones
in the Celtic rock band, as I'msure you could both gu ess.
But he wanted to do something,not just with me, I think, he
just wanted to do this band aswell.
And so he was like, well, let'smake a ska band.
Will (04:01):
And I was like, oh yeah, I know ska it's like because I
had seen Good Burger and I knewLess Jake, Jake Real Big Fish,
Mustard Plug, Mighty, MightyBosstones.
Chris (04:12):
because my other friend, Chris Curtis from grade school,
went to Jones and that was wherehe jumped off, because he
played trumpet in grade schooland I played trombone.
So we went our separate ways.
He found his group over there,and they formed this band called
Random Outburst, and it waslike third wave to the hilt ska
punk ska-core, Voodoo GlowSkulls, Streetlig ht Manifesto
(04:37):
[bababababa] like that, likethat fast and so when when it
came together when with that,he's like no, we're going to do
like ska like he called it ska,he was like basically saying
like the other stuff was not andmaybe a more traditional than
like third wave.
Like, yeah, yeah, like reallygoing back and I he made me a
tape.
I don't remember every singlething on it, but there was this
(05:02):
recording from like the 70s Ithink nobody's still nobody
really knows who made it.
It was either the clash and thejam or one or the other, or you
know a mix of guys from thosetwo groups.
There was just thisinstrumental track, instrumental
track called Rudy ska, and it'sreally nice, really smooth
(05:24):
saxophone, trumpet, trombone,like a trombone solo on it.
There was that.
There was the message to youRudy was on it.
I think a scottelites track wason it.
So you basically this was likemy crash course and it was funny
because some of this stuff wasfamiliar but I didn't know why.
Will (05:43):
And the sound is like seminal ska to you like it's
like that is it?
Chris (05:47):
Yeah, well, it's like that's what it was.
And then, as I got more deeplyinto it, as we played our, as we
started playing our music andour sound, it became like really
this first wave ska, almostlike rocksteady reggae in some
respects, I learned more aboutoh, this is where this music
that I already liked comes from,because we had a Bob Marley CD
at home, we had Peter Tosh albumat home because this was the
(06:10):
stuff my mom and my dad listenedto.
So it was finding out that, butalso finding out, okay, what is
this?
I like this music, I want toknow more about it, and so that
clashed with what thepresentation was in media, which
was pretty much oh, ska, thathorrible, annoying music from
(06:33):
the nineties dresses up in acertain way and plays trumpet
loudly in your face.
I watched this show stillcalled Legend of Tomorrow that's
on the CW, part of DC's TVshows, and I make a ska joke, I
think in the fourth or fifthseason, and it's not uncommon
(06:55):
for shows to still crack thosejokes.
Will (06:57):
It is kind of weird how that's like a punchy down thing
that is in multiple media isbecause I definitely heard that,
jay, before too, and it's weirdtoo, because the third wave
stuff like Less Than Jake getsstill pulling huge crowds Like
they just did a tour last year.
Chris (07:10):
Yeah, no, I heard about that and I kind of wanted to go.
Hello, Rockville is still oneof my favorite albums, it's not.
I like music with horns,because I came up playing jazz
and band music, so I like skathat has horns in it and not a
lot of Less Than Jake has hornsin it, I think, once they really
hit their stride.
But I still really love that.
(07:30):
It's just a lot of fun.
I think that's the big thingabout these different styles of
ska and so why it's annoying.
When I hear people say that,when I hear people make that
joke, like oh, ska is annoying,I'm like, well, listen to this.
Or well, more succinctly, Iwant to like hit them so that
they can be more receptive to metelling them to listen to
(07:52):
something.
Yeah, that's really how.
Andrew (07:53):
I think it's part of the people who say that I think
they're just.
They're obviously pigeonholingthe whole genre.
They're just saying the wholegenre is much more dynamic than
you can.
I mean, you might hate onething you hear that might be ska
, but there's like all differenttypes, right.
Like if you hate one ska bandit doesn't mean you're going to
hate another.
So I think those people theyjust they just think what ska
might is in their head and, yeah, they don't really realize that
(08:14):
there's much more to it.
Chris (08:15):
Like I don't know where that picture came from, if it
was like they had interactionswith people at shows or at clubs
or bars or whatever, or havethis idea of people wearing
fedoras and skinny ties or what.
Even that was a uniform forpeople who liked this music, but
(08:36):
those people who wore thatuniform would kick the shit out
of you.
That's the whole thing aboutrude boys.
Yeah, it's punk music Right.
It's like whether it was inJamaica or whether it was in
London or wherever, sheffield orwherever you didn't mess with
those guys, like they werelistening to this music, like
(08:57):
laid back rock, steady, kind ofyou know, pick it up, put it
down music, but they would jumpyou, if not just throw the ones
with you and knock you out.
So I don't know where thatperception came from.
If it was like a retaliation,like oh, we don't like getting
jumped by guys with fedoras.
Andrew (09:16):
Creepers and Find that the styles of music that invite
like uniform or likeself-presentation or identity
that is definitely likeCounter-cultural or against the
grain, like looking different,like those styles of music tend
to sometimes get punched at alittle bit more.
Chris (09:33):
Yeah, which makes sense because like the people I know
who, like metal, are definitelylike.
Will (09:37):
I.
Chris (09:39):
Know school too, like the goth metal kids, and I think
the whole idea is like you'reit's like any kind of grouping
right, you want to get withpeople, so you're in larger
numbers and you want to likeappear.
You're doing it for safety, soyou want to look a little bit
tough, and so the goth metalkids look hella tough.
And I met with, I met them androlled with a lot of them and
(10:00):
they were like a lot of themwere very shy, yeah yeah, very
like low-key people andintroverted and this was their
like way to be out, right, right, this was their way to like be
extroverted and be kind of outof the in the culture when they
felt like really comfortable.
My, my guys like that.
He's a very shy, low-key guy andI've seen clips of him singing
(10:20):
in his band Nice completely nice.
Andrew (10:24):
It's amazing how people can find that outlet right,
especially through music andright and identity right.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you likedid ska when you're like getting
into it or your foray into it.
Did that help develop yourpersonal identity or help you
connect with Family ties orhistory or anything like that?
Chris (10:39):
not necessarily with, like my, my family in Jamaica
Okay, I haven't talked to themin a little while but I think
with that identity that was withmy dad specifically it helped
connect with that because a lotof that went into.
Like he was a cricket fanbecause West Indies cricket in
the in the 60s and 70s when hewas coming of age, saw its
(11:02):
Ascension into world popularityand a lot of that was tied to
ska, rock, steady, then reggae,really like roots reggae stuff
for me.
I remember going to see Midwestska fest before the same Chris
Curtis and a lot of the peoplethat I knew from Jones.
Pretty much took it and ranwithin a few years ago because
(11:26):
what it was when we were youngKind of folded and he's like
what we want to keep doing this.
So I remember my mom drove meand I was like this is what I'm
gonna wear.
She's like you can't wear that.
It's it's November, you'regoing to freeze.
So I was wearing a white dressshirt, black suspenders.
I had these clunky, clunkyrubber sole dress shoes that you
(11:48):
made me where I really wantedto wear my check tailors and she
was like you can't wear that.
There's ice on the ground andslush and you're in uniform.
Yes, I was, but I was definitelyin my element.
I was in my element and I Thinkthe way that the music goes, no
matter where it where, if it'sfirst wave or third wave, the
(12:09):
whole point is that you'redancing, and so it Integrated a
lot of what I already knew fromgrowing up on the South side,
going to school where I did,where Footwork and juke music is
such a part of Chicago that Iwas already like this is what we
(12:30):
did at parties.
We dance like, we dance hardand we dance fast.
And so, going to the show whichagain is not necessarily the
sky that I came on to talk aboutprimarily, but the outgrowth of
it we danced hard and we dancedfast, we danced long.
So you just kept, you went, youwent, you went, you went, you
as hard as you could, you triedto keep it up, keep up with
(12:51):
everybody.
Andrew (12:51):
Definitely music of movement.
Will (12:53):
Yeah, yeah, and that's what.
Chris (12:55):
I r eally connected with it.
That's what I've alwaysconnected with about Ska.
Like you move, whether you'reon stage and you're playing and
you guys played in bands youknow that you have to keep your
energy up and know, yeah, whenand where to conserve and when
and where to really hit.
Go for it.
Yeah, but Ska, if you're like,if you hit that level and then
you just keep trying to gohigher, it's it's wild for that
(13:16):
because that's a lot of it butit feels so much like the jazz I
played in college, especiallywhen we had the crowd on our
side.
Bradley jazz concerts were a lotof fun because the crowd that
came was an assortment of people, not least because Some of the
people that were in the bandlike me, guy Jonathan Day, who's
(13:38):
from South the South suburb aswe played saxophone, we knew the
black students at predominantlywhite school and we had a few
other people in the band whowere in the same boat.
So those kids came out tosupport us because not only they
like the music, they felt likeit was important and I don't
think I recognize that as muchat the time.
(13:59):
But like seeing guys from myfloor that we blocked our floor
in sophomore year and then theycame out to our jazz show and I
was like, yeah, this is cool.
So that was there, was thatassorted movement there where
they were in an auditorium butyou could see people wanting to
or getting out of their seatswhen we played a song, that was
like, okay, it's time for you tomove, and I think that was
(14:22):
different for what we had thenAt that school.
And so sky was a lot of thatbaseline for me that came from
years before, because this isthe music I heard and even when
we played in this group, thatDanny and I made with our guy
Jim Cada, the back alley skanks.
Andrew (14:42):
Long live the back alley skanks.
Chris (14:45):
Oh my god, but that was our whole, our basis.
We had our fast songs, we hadour slow songs, we had our
get-up songs, we had our youknow listen.
We had our high schoolintrospective songs.
I will not tell you any of thenames of these songs.
Andrew (14:58):
I bet they're pretty juicy.
Chris (15:01):
Man.
You know those guys havemarried and have kids now and I
don't want to ruin theirreputation.
Will (15:11):
I mean one interesting note on that, though not that
aspect in particular, but SinceScott such a defined music style
or like, has such a feel to it.
Oh, I see a lot of covers inthat zone like a lot of people
just redoing songs in that stylethat are huge.
But I kind of wanted to touchback on what you said about it
being a safe space and like itsuch an unique, like Experience,
(15:33):
because that's kind of whatbrought drew me into it, was
like it was a very Like you knewwho was into it.
Everyone who went to thoseshows was all about it, like I
mean, I have checkerboard bandsand like a hat and I felt kind
of silly if I wore that toschool, but if I wore it to the
show I knew right other otherpeople be dressed like that.
Andrew (15:53):
Some of these musical spaces seem to have like clearer
, more defined boundaries thanothers, like it's not just like
soft rock or yeah, contemporarymusic, like if you're in the sky
and you're at a ska show, youcan pretty much guess the type
of dress you're gonna see andthe type of person you're gonna
kind of interact with.
Will (16:09):
But at the same time like, since it's such a high-energy
fun dance, like if you like tomove and you like music, but
they say I have a good timethere low, low or buried entry,
for instance.
Chris (16:20):
Maybe then like yeah, we're buried entry and just a
fun style music like it was veryfun Like the funny thing is I
think that is really similar towhere ska started from, because
I know we're kind of getting Notahead of ourselves, but it it
shares a lot of similaritieswith the like development of the
musical style in itself,because in the Caribbean, but I
(16:44):
mean primarily in Jamaica.
So it was mental and calypsoand it was a lot of like
combinations of African andEuropean rhythms that Meshed and
melded, but then out of thatcame like the 40s and 50s R&B
from the US which was a lot ofNew Orleans Boogie, woogie
before doo-wop, like.
(17:05):
A lot of early ska stuff isreally similar to a lot of 1950s
Doo-wop, like when you think ofFrankie Lyman yeah and the, the
teenagers that you had, AltonEllis and I think The Flames.
Like it was like James JamesBrown started with the famous
flames right but also a lot ofreally similar stuff to that
(17:28):
very popular dancing music likefor kids right.
I mean, it's like people, likeyoung people.
Their Jamaica was moving towardindependence, colonialism was
reaching its like nadir, and,and so there was this, and it
was the post-war, post-world Wartwo.
So yeah, rock on kind of likeexpansion of okay, well, we want
(17:50):
to Celebrate, we're out of thewar, we're out of, we're coming
out of colonialism, we'regetting a bigger voice.
And there was this expansion oflike dance not dance hall in
its sense that we know it now,but like Dancing on on in places
, on places on the corner, inthe streets.
Sound systems that came upwhere it was literally like we
(18:11):
got all this stuff in a van,we're gonna take the party here
and you get out, you got thespeakers, you have all these
guys in the system were DJingand here's the party and we're
gonna create the party.
It was like a block party in amobile setting and that's where
this is all kind of created andit wasn't necessarily a safe
space, for you know people tocome, that's everybody to come
(18:34):
out, but it's like you knewwhere the party was and that's
where you went.
And that was kind of the nacentbeginnings of scams, like here's
where you go, where you hearthe music that you want to hear,
that they're not necessarilyplaying on the radio.
That's where the kind of thesafe space comes in.
It's like where do you go toget this music?
You know you want to hear it,where do you go to get it?
(18:55):
And it's like, okay, such andsuch, like Duke Reed has his
sound system, he's going here.
Cox and Dada has his soundsystem, he's going here, Prince
Buster's sound system's goinghere, Dicky Wong's sound
system's going here, and that'swhere you went, like Small
Island, but all these differentplaces in Kingston where people
(19:16):
were coming out of out of likethe rural settings, out of the
farms, to go kind of see wherethey could seek their fortune,
and it was like, well, you putin a 40, 50 hour week, now what?
Will (19:29):
Time to party.
Chris (19:30):
Yeah, let's go.
Andrew (19:31):
Sounds like at least back then and there, like it was
a combination of bigger factorsthat all kind of came in like
from technology, like theability to have remote audio and
like get your stereo out, orboom boxes and stuff, and then
you had the like you said, likethe decline or the bottoming out
of like external rule of thecountry, for instance, and then
(19:54):
you have all these factors thatcome together and then it
creates this almost like hotbedor like the fertile soil for
this to generate and start, andit's the people who actually go
and do that Like yeah.
Chris (20:05):
When you mentioned Soft Rock, it's.
I don't know necessarily thebasis for it, for I know the
music right.
I don't know the underlyingfactors.
Andrew (20:13):
But a lot of these different styles.
Chris (20:15):
There's a lot of similarities I see between ska
and hip hop which makes a lot ofsense, because hip hop wouldn't
have been possible without ska.
To a certain degree, as much asit owes to funk, it owes a lot
to ska reggae, because thatstyle of like talking over a
(20:36):
record, that's where reggae andtoasting and then hip hop came
from.
Like the first Cool Herk wasJamaican, so there's this
something in the sound, whetherit's from the horns, whether
it's from the beat or what, whenyou're talking about movement.
It was speaking to people onthis way, and then in the lyrics
it was talking aboutindividuality and kind of a
(21:01):
sense of consciousness and selfin that melting pot of
post-colonialism, post-warexpression, like moving to the
city and kind of maybe being onyour own for the first time, and
so that's where a lot of thisreally fleshed into.
(21:22):
And so when I know we're notdone right, but when people say,
oh, you know, that bastardprobably even likes ska, I'm
like what are you talking about?
Like this is a very integralidea, not just to me, but kicked
(21:43):
off a lot of things that youlike, Like without that basis
like where we went to like duband dance hall, well, drake
wouldn't have a career.
First and foremost, like Drakein Toronto, had owes a lot to
the Caribbean people that movedup there.
But when you had that trackwith Rihanna and Hotline Bling
(22:06):
and all that, that's soCaribbean dub dance hall Almost
right.
Will (22:12):
That's in the same category.
Chris (22:13):
Even like, this is one of my favorite albums.
Andrew (22:16):
Dan and Paula yeah.
Chris (22:19):
That same old mistakes.
A lot of influences there too,even though there's, you know,
you think of horns when youthink of ska, and there's not
necessarily horns on that, butthat heavy kind of offbeat.
There's so much that ties intoit.
Andrew (22:34):
Yeah, yeah, you can even like, I guess in a more
contemporary way, with ska, likereplace the horns with keyboard
, yeah, and like get the samesort of oh yeah, that's like and
I actually Shabba Rex, all thatstuff, that's what they do.
Will (22:46):
Through that whole history too.
It just made me think like Imean, a lot of music is like
this, but ska in particular, italways seems to have had one
step in the past and one in thefuture, you know, yeah.
Because it's so accessible.
If you play a horn, you can giveme in the band, but you can
also play guitar and be in theband or, if you're, you know,
using a synth or whateverthat'll fit into.
Like hip hop also has that kindof trend where it's like every
(23:09):
time there's new tech stuff, Ifeel like hip hop is the first
thing to do it.
Oh, dude yeah, but ska just hasthat such like longevity too,
which again blows my mind whenyou say like people are making
fun of people just on the street, because I'm like this music
has not only been around for along time, it's coming to the
mainstream three huge times andcountless others.
Andrew (23:29):
It's almost hard to even conceptualize why people like
have a thing against ska, not tosay that like, like ska hate is
like a big thing.
Will (23:36):
Like no, I can't, I can't imagine.
I feel like we're like talkingabout we don't want pickets,
Pickets, we don't want to.
Andrew (23:41):
No, it's not just the ska man, but we have noticed in
our personal lives and justdealing with it.
People kind of like if they'regoing to talk trash about
something, it's usually countryor ska or something like that.
Will (23:49):
Something like that.
Andrew (23:51):
But you're right, you're like, if you look into ska,
even if you just read theWikipedia on it, you'll realize
like there is so much dynamicsand so much time and culture and
history and everything thatgoes into it, and yeah, yeah, I
guess.
I guess the sound just kind oflike hits some people.
Will (24:05):
It's like some people don't like jazz, you know.
Andrew (24:07):
Like yeah, which I find weird.
Chris (24:10):
I think I remember talking to somebody and I think
he said he didn't like.
It wasn't that he didn't likejazz, he didn't like the
reaction that he got when hesaid he wasn't into jazz from
people which yeah, I meanthere's some elitism there, I
guess too.
Andrew (24:27):
That goes with it.
I mean, I come from heavy metal.
It's like the king of elite,elite mofos.
You just like think everythingthey love is the best thing in
the world.
Clearly not true, no?
Chris (24:37):
it's an interesting thing and I think there's we're
talking about like barriers toentry, and ska is like I'll talk
to people about like we'redoing right now and I'll tell
them.
It's like hey, this is wherethis came from, this is what it
is and like, if you think aboutX group or X group or X group, a
lot of what they like wasinfluenced by this sound, but
(24:58):
even more, you know, centralthan that like it was.
A lot of it started out as alot of protest music.
What started?
It really started out as moreof like kind of do what?
Like we said, boogie, woogieromance music and then when it
started moving into rocksteadyand reggae really, because Bob
the whaler started out as a skagroup Then they moved into
reggae and it moved into thatprotest music.
(25:21):
And when it got to two tone andgot to the UK and got big again
, a lot of it was protestsagainst like the 80s and
thatcherism and likederegulation and all of that.
So I was just reading somethingthat there was a.
There's a group in the UK oh,captain Scott, as they're called
(25:43):
, and it's like just a group offreelance musicians so there's
never one specific person who'son every record but mainly what
they do is put out protestrecords.
So pre-Brexit, like the DavidCameron coalition government,
they wrote a protest song aboutthat.
Then they wrote another one,and another one, and another one
and they just kept it going andthat's been their.
(26:04):
Their MO and their deliveryvehicle is this because you know
, as much as people might wantto make fun of it, something
about the music and the rhythmsand the melody speaks to people
in a very, I think, visceral way.
Andrew (26:19):
Yeah, I guess the maybe.
The word for that is like.
I don't want to say rageagainst the machine, but like,
but it's that sort of there'ssomething that you're saying.
What you're saying is there'ssomething about the music that
inspires like, like something inyou to go against the grain or
to speak out against something,or to feel empowered to say what
you believe in the face ofadversity.
(26:40):
Or let's say like, like I don'tknow overarching governments or
bad politicians, whatever, like.
I guess the question is like isthere something inherent, at
least for you, about Scott thatlike gives you that?
Chris (26:51):
maybe it's the physicality of it, maybe it's
the movement of it, some of it'slike having played it and
knowing that you're usually youliterally using your wind, like
the breath in your body, to playit, and that's what I've liked
about being about it myself.
But I think it, if you thinkabout it like that you're
breathing in and out when you'removing, and there's something
(27:11):
where it just kind of I thinkthere's that idea of what Marley
said about get up, stand up.
That is still inherent in thatmusic.
There's judge dread and judgedread dance and the judge dread
dance.
Is this a judge just handingout sentences?
And so there was this idea ofnot being rude boys, as that was
(27:34):
coming into vogue.
Like as more people move to thecity Kingston which Kingston,
pretty much the city likethere's Montego yeah, so we're
talking strictly Jamaica rightnow yeah, before before I moved
over to UK and London.
But it's like you know you wantto be rude boys.
(27:54):
It's like get 30 days and it'slike I didn't do this just a
hush up going to jail, but it'sone of my favorites because of
it's it's talking aboutsomething that you know real
life.
This is not something thatactually happened, but it's an
expression of reality in song.
Will (28:15):
So it was recognizable for people.
Chris (28:17):
They knew what it was because they've been a part of
it or seen it happen, and itwasn't necessarily that they
were like oh well, this is songstelling me not to get into
trouble.
Some people were probably tookit as like yeah, that's the
anthem.
You know it's like that was me.
I was in front of the, I was infront of the Bailey last week,
something like that, but I likethat song and that's what really
(28:41):
pulled me on the Prince Buster.
And then Don Drummond isunheralded for a good reason.
The short story about DonDrummond is that with the
scottalites, who everybody knowsfor, like Guns of Navarone, he
(29:02):
was the trombonist with thatband and they were student
session musicians, pretty much.
So if they, if, if studio onebrought in somebody to sing and
they wanted, like horns in theback, scottalites would be the
session musicians.
So there's all these namesassociated with the scottalites,
(29:22):
like Tommy McCook and LaurelAitken, who did move to England
and lived there for pretty muchthe rest of his life.
But Don Drummond was thetrombonist and he was very
prolific in a very short amountof time.
If, like, if you look up onYouTube, you'll find a lot of
Don Drummond tracks and werethey sessioning for mostly ska
(29:45):
music or kind of anything?
mainly, mainly ska.
I think they hit on somerocksteady, but this is like
that doo-wop kind of boogie skathat we talked about.
Will (29:55):
Yeah, it was just hugely popular.
They were just pumping outrecords like as it moved towards
reggae.
Chris (30:00):
That's when you get to Desmond Decker, more so, and
like Bob Marley and the Wailersand Alton Ellis, who, when you
talk about people doing coversbefore yeah, a lot of the stuff
they did was like covers of UKof songs from the US or the or
other places that were doinglike that kind of it, like they
(30:24):
would do covers of songs likeBlue Moon.
Alton Ellis did a cover ofSitting in the Park by I can't
remember the artist name, I, butit's like an old doo-wop
favorite like if you, if you goon YouTube and you look up like
lowrider anthems, like the stuffthat was coming out of LA in
the 80s, that's a lot of whatthey covered in the 50s and 60s.
Will (30:48):
I mean it's funny too, because I mean we were talking
about this earlier.
But just how many artists, fromwhatever style of music, have a
history of those standards,like it all?
Started with jazz, but likeeverybody is kind of playing a
standard, even if they don'tknow it at a certain point yeah
yeah, this is like a familiarity, right it's literally the same
(31:09):
song, it's just differentiterations of it yeah, like
these songs are, like it'stimeless, where it just keeps
going and going and going.
Chris (31:16):
I think part of it was that there was an allowance for
it because I was, as I wasreading, there was a certain law
that wasn't on the books inJamaica at the time so you could
just record another songwithout paying any royalties to
the original artist orrequesting clearance to cover it
.
Kind of like we're talkingabout hip-hop.
Kind of like how early hip-hopwas sampling, like you sample,
(31:40):
get away with it, and then youdidn't tell anybody who you
sampled it from and you didn'trelease, like oh, we got it from
this record and pray digginbecame that.
It was like guys went over tothe US, heard the, heard songs
on the radio while they wereworking.
I think see either Derek Morganor Cox and Dodd that I mentioned
before that he went to the US,worked for a while, heard this
(32:02):
stuff and was like inspired.
He bought a turntable, a fewvinyl records and some other
equipment, came back to Jamaica,had studied carpentry and so he
built his own sound system withthe stuff that he got and that
was what they and what they wereplaying at first was stuff in
the US.
Like they would get theserecords and play these records.
(32:23):
Then they would have somebodyrecord these records a new
version of the same song.
Then they started writingoriginal stuff and that's how
you got people like PrinceBuster and Laurel Aiken who
became famous for singing these,for singing this music and so
going to Don Drummond, like heand the scottlites were not
(32:46):
unique, but they were some ofthe names that really became big
and stayed big in the earlyfirst wave for just doing
instrumental stuff that was morebombastic, more jazz, like I
mean, they were just very goodmusicians, yeah, like they
played.
(33:07):
They played, you know, jazz andbebop and kind of orchestral
jazz from like the 30s and 40s.
They grew up, they came upplaying that and so then they
were playing this music.
That was very much Scott like.
This became what I knew wasfirst wave Scott, but it was
sometimes just instrumental andDon Drummond, in like a three,
(33:28):
four-year period, put out somany of these tracks like Scott
Town.
If you look up Scott Town,don't have this all on this
playlist, but Scott Town is oneof my favorites and this is hard
driving, just really, reallygood song and last like two
minutes and 25 seconds that'sactually something that's a
totally interrupt, but thatturned me on to Scott in the
(33:48):
beginning too, is that all theseguys are just really good
musicians too right.
Will (33:52):
That's why they can pop out all these covers, that's why
they can play all thesearrangements without having to
write it down, because I comefrom a band background to like a
plate French horn and trumpetand tuba yeah yeah you didn't
seem extra pretentious.
Thank you, thank you, but no, I.
French horn was interestingbecause you could play all these
(34:12):
other instruments by learningthose fingerings and it was kind
of the same thing.
So I had a stand with trumpet.
I knew a little trumpet but itwas the slides, so I didn't
learn that as well.
Chris (34:22):
But yeah, just amazing musicians to throw it back no,
and and Don would have gonefurther, but he was.
He was found guilty ofmurdering his girlfriend, which
is a, which is a wild story,like everything that I've read.
He, I think in this day and agethere's not a lot of.
It's hard to doubt the storythat the result?
(34:45):
she was stabbed in the chestfour times and I think he was
the only one the person there.
When they found him he said hesaid that he didn't do it, he,
somebody else had done it, buthe was found guilty.
He went to jail and died likethree, four years after that.
So you have this really shorttime period of this guy with
this group who was one of thecreate like the main creative
(35:09):
forces, and his stuff is still.
It ranks up there with a lot ofother trombonist you could
throw out and for a very odd andsomewhat maligned instrument
there's a lot of really goodtrombonist like who's it?
Kevin you banks, brother, theTonight Show van leader, his
brother, robin, is fantastic.
(35:31):
I put Don Drummond up againsthim and Kevin you banks, robin
you banks is ridiculously good,but it's.
It's one of those.
Really it's a reallyinteresting story out of that
first outgrowth of Scott and Ithink that's part of something
that people don't know about.
It gets overlooked when there'sbeen.
(35:53):
You know, when people talkabout Darrell Abbott right, we
talk about musicians who diedyoung and really inspirational
to people like Don back Darrell.
You talked to a certain sectorpeople.
They're like oh yeah, dondrumming yeah, one of those big
ones.
Andrew (36:09):
Yeah, I wonder as scas waves propagated forward like
did.
Do you think that the musicalcomplexity or some of the
technicality of it got maybelike diluted or you know how,
like he got Scott core, he getcore versions of something right
.
Is it sort of that samementality or that same idea?
Chris (36:27):
um, it's interesting because the speed picked up okay
right, like you especially thepunk side of it.
Well, even before that, like alot of second wave and two tone
was faster and I don't know ifit was just because, well you
(36:48):
know, cars got faster andeverything like the speed of
life spread up, so I think therewas some of that to it like
there's two different versionsof one step beyond.
There's the Prince Busterversion okay, that is kind of
like like that speed, yeah.
And then the madness version islike it's got, it's nice to get
going, yeah right but I mean thespecials, like Ghost Town is
(37:10):
not a not a fast song, it's avery mellow song, I think when
you got into the 90s, I don'tknow what happened, man.
Will (37:18):
I don't know what happened when.
Chris (37:18):
Scott got to the US like proper.
I don't know if, like most ofthese third wave bands, were
just like I don't like were theysnorting coke or were they on
speed or what and they were likewe want to do this as fast as
we can, yeah, yeah, because itkind of got there.
(37:38):
But there was also moon skyrecords out of New York that had
the not the slackers, not thespecials, but, like I think, the
toasters.
I Hepcat.
Hepcat's really big.
That was on moon scott.
Will (37:59):
And what like your range where it was this day this was
like early 90s.
Chris (38:03):
I got a lot of New York and northeastern Groups formed
around then it was it was kindof a weird confluence where they
weren't Like the swing revival.
That lasted three, four yearsright but Alex Day's air.
That was in Hepcat and was oneof the main vocalists for that
was in swingers where they havethat scene with John Favreau and
(38:24):
Heather Graham and they'redancing to.
Why can't I think of that band?
They did the theme song forthird rock from the Sun, but
they were like one of the mainbands in the swing revival.
So it was that kind of oddperiod where this musical style
was coming back around again andwhat those bands did on there
were mainly on the moon skyrecords label Was a lot of first
(38:46):
wave and fairly mellow stuff,but it was in even heavier.
It was, I don't like, almostlike a cool jazz Version of it.
It was really even moreinfluenced by that kind of West
Coast Chet Baker style of jazzand the first.
Hepcat record good vocals, goodmusical Composition, bad solos.
(39:11):
It's funny.
I love that record.
But they would tell you like,oh yeah, these solos were Pretty
elementary.
As they went on, I think theyput out four or five albums the
second and third ones.
You can tell they really workedon it.
My favorites I just saw themplay a, a Gena.
(39:38):
I just went to see these guysbecause I was like, oh god, they
left Long Island.
I never thought they're gonnaleave Long Island, but they were
playing all over the place inthe early part of the 90s and
2000s and then they pretty muchplayed like Long Island how
shows Technically sound and theywere playing some fast stuff.
But they also played.
(40:00):
There's a version of caravanthat they have on their live
album.
That's a little bit up tempo andthey could lay it back when
they wanted.
It was just kind of Morebombastic and I don't know if
that necessarily had to do withthe time period, to like Gulf
War I there's.
There's a great quote on someYouTube video that I cannot
remember.
It was a hip-hop video but itwas like I'll never forget the
(40:22):
90s, drinking a St I's on thefront porch, bill Clinton
getting dome in the White Housewith a banging economy and I
think there's just this feelingin the mid 90s that that was
similar in a way With that,depending on where you were and
what was going on.
Like you're coming out of the80s, you're coming out of the me
(40:45):
generation, you're coming outof the crack epidemic and people
are talking about it, and someof these things are on the low
where people's like, hey, thisis, this is where crack and coke
came from but there's also thissense of Not just I'm doing
this for myself, but also thesense of Fuck it, I'm going for
(41:06):
it, and so I think that's a lotof what third wave Scott is or
became where it was just like.
Will (41:12):
There's a bit of yolo there right, yeah, yeah part
time and like yeah, I was likethe skate culture was coming
mainstream yeah and so like.
Chris (41:20):
Warped Tour dropped and Lala was still going and like
early, early, lala Palooza, andit was just like you know what
one Warped Tour did a lot forthat.
Will (41:29):
That, oh, part of it too.
It was huge Dude some of those.
Chris (41:34):
You look back at some of those Warped Tour lineups.
This is a little aside.
Some of those early Warped Tourlineups had bands on the on the
docket, depending on the city,but I don't think you would ever
, ever, ever see on the samelineup together again.
Oh yeah big time like any yard.
D played like 2001 Warped Tourand they are.
It was like any RD and lessthan Jake.
(41:57):
And then something like mychemical romance or something.
Will (42:00):
I mean it just makes no.
Curation was like an early LalaPalooza where it was kind of
just whatever the stafferswanted, yeah.
And then it turned more intothe Poppunk vehicle which, like
I mean coming back to Skaw, likeall that Skaw stuff pretty much
directly started Poppunk typemusic yeah, huge in Florida,
(42:21):
huge in Chicago as well which islike kind of indicative.
Chris (42:25):
Oh, and then you were.
No, you're right, it was so Iforgot about that.
A lot of bands came out of notjust South.
Florida, but, like I think,gainesville was the epicenter
would.
Will (42:34):
Yeah, I had spent some time there with a bunch of those
bands, like I think I went towrite the art camp.
I worked at Mayday parade.
Two of those guys worked at theart camp interesting.
Yeah, that's cool Like I've everseen those people around
Florida all the time and thencame here and I was like, oh,
it's still here.
Chris (42:53):
So I think there's just always a foundational element to
it.
It's not just people gettingtogether with a bunch of horns
and trying to play as loud asthey can Totally.
It.
Always there's a basis for itand they're playing something
that that was coming from hereand here and that they're kind
of throwing out.
When I go see my, my guyChris's band is Running punch
(43:14):
and so when I go see run andpunch is very evident it wasn't
what they're singing about andwhat they're playing and how
they're playing it that they'retrying to Put something out
there that's within themselves.
We're talking about passion andsoul that's in them right even.
But they put out a single whileback, called another day and it
(43:34):
was like I think it was liketalking about a breakup, talking
about job Was there still veryprevalent then, as it is now
like five, six years ago whenthey came out with it and that's
the reality that we're in,right like same as when they're
in the 50s, 60s talking aboutthis is the reality we're in 70s
, 80s.
This is the reality we're in.
In the 90s it was not so muchbut it was kind of contextual.
(43:59):
This is the reality we're inexcept for well I.
Know, I don't know if you couldsay that about I'm a dude from
good burger, but it's it.
It would really Be a good themeright now because I'm a dude.
Andrew (44:17):
She's a dude, we're all dudes.
I remember watching as a kid Ihad the orange VHS.
Will (44:38):
Nickelodeon.
Andrew (44:39):
VHS was orange and, like my brother and I thought that
was the greatest thing thatmovie cracked us up, I mean it
plays at the Logan theater everyonce in a while I saw about a
year ago with Craig.
I think there's I think there'sa timelessness to that movie,
for oh yeah, it's still justfunny.
What, uh, how would you saythat?
Like sky, like 2023, likethings this year think, or even
(45:01):
last year?
Will (45:01):
maybe or what's now.
Andrew (45:03):
What's what like, what's vibing, like, what's hitting
release with you.
Chris (45:06):
I mean, like, like I said , I love my friends, so run and
punch is still one of myfavorites.
I like listening them, eventhough I think they're they're
not as much on those like on theScott putt cutting edge as they
were when we were in highschool, which makes sense.
You're in high school, you havethat invincibility factor
(45:27):
turned up to like 12, yeah, andyou can dance all night.
Now we're in our 30s and we candance for maybe, you know 45
minutes and then we have to takea break and then come back to
the floor.
But I Like run and punch a lot,and a lot of the bands that I
mentioned before, like StreetLight Manifesto, were still
(45:47):
putting good music.
Yeah yeah, but it's, it's for me, it's really.
I stick with the stuff I know.
Okay, and some of that is justsituational, right, don't go as
many live shows or pull as manynew, new, pull as much new music
as I did when I was young.
Will (46:10):
I mean one guy I pay attention to who's newer is the
Scott to network person.
Oh, yeah, yeah, I forget thename of his actual band, but
their last couple records Ithought sounded great.
Chris (46:22):
There's a really interesting and sad case.
Sorry to keep ringing up thesad cases, but there was a band
out in New York, the Frightners,that put out one album and it's
frighteners, with no E in themiddle, and they are very much
like.
How did they fit into that lateScott Rocksteady reggae vein?
(46:42):
But their album came out in 20,2012 or 2014 one of the two,
but they.
What happened was that they hadto put it out and they were on
a time frame Because they foundout that their lead singer had
ALS, so there was only a certainamount of time that they could
get everything in Before hisbody started to fail.
(47:03):
So they only put out the onealbum and then they said we're
not doing the frightenersanymore.
But, this came up when I waslistening to some other music
that was like more old-schooland it just came up in the
YouTube mix and I was like thisis really, really good and it's
it's a sad story because theirlead vocalist voices Fan
(47:23):
absolutely fantastic.
It's perfect for that kind ofmusic and the way that they
produced it Elevated that aswell as their band on the whole.
Andrew (47:33):
You're saying the Frightners are an especially
special kind of project.
Yeah, I mean they were.
Chris (47:39):
I mean they were.
You know they were trying tokind of do what Hapcat did.
You could see a lot.
I could see a lot of Hapcat inthem, not just because they're
both from New York, but they hada lot of early Scott influence.
That sounded there wasproducing a low fidelity kind of
fashion, but it didn't.
You know it wasn't right, itwas good, it was tight.
Andrew (48:01):
There's an aesthetic choice to that low, finest right
.
Yeah, right.
Chris (48:04):
Yeah, their album cover had that that look of it.
Do I check out that Frightnersalbum.
It's worth it.
It was really really, reallyworth it.
Will (48:12):
But also it's a good recommend to talk about.
Yeah.
Chris (48:15):
Prince Buster is my favorite.
Prince Buster's timeless.
Prince Buster's not goinganywhere.
The scottlites still play atReggie's every so often.
Will (48:24):
Yeah, I was gonna say they're still around and they
still sound good.
Chris (48:27):
Yeah, the lineup changes but they're still the scottlites
, so it's worth it.
Like Desmond Decker'sshantytown, the scottlites doing
James Bond is.
Any, it was like you could tellit was right.
In that way of like coolCaribbean in the 60s, like when
(48:49):
dr no came out and they were inI think they were literally
either in Jamaica or theDominican Republic you could
tell it was like, okay, peoplewant this, but yeah, that's
what's got it.
So it is not.
It is not some goofy.
Like even the goofy stuff isnot goofy.
And I take the people who arestill Whether they're rude boys,
(49:10):
rude girls, rude people are not, whether they dress that way or
not, they'll still kick yourass so.
Just if you're gonna crack jokeson scottlites you know, do it
behind the safety of yourkeyboard.
Andrew (49:23):
I mean, I think even just you know people taking a
look at the history and thenjust going to a show, like, like
we said, it's such passionatemusic it's hard to yeah, yeah, I
think even if you're not versedin either the technicality or
the Musicality of it, and evenif you're not big on like the
sound of it, like just being ina room full of people Moving
their bodies and feeling themusic.
(49:44):
That should be enough for mostpeople to like, be like.
This music makes some sort ofsense to me.
Chris (49:50):
You get swept up.
Yeah, even like the pins andthe buttons is always somebody.
It's always like a guy, or islike the guy with the sunglasses
with his with his feet up, orthe girl in the dress With their
feet up, and you go to a showand that's what it is.
And I like that because there'sother music that I like and
I'll go to shows for it and itis a lot of like.
Lot of head bobbing Like slowhead nod yeah, music yeah.
Will (50:17):
I can, only Can't do that I feel like, yeah, I think, feel
like what you're saying is likeif you're gonna be there,
you're gonna be there a hundredpercent.
Andrew (50:24):
You want to move, you want to feel, you want to like
sweat, you want to like get itout.
Chris (50:28):
You gotta come out of the show, yeah if it's wintertime,
you got to come out of the showknowing like, okay, don't catch
a cold, you gotta, you gotta,wipe this off yeah make sure you
bundled up.
Will (50:41):
Gotta get my 45 minutes Go outside take a break, then go
back in.
Chris (50:47):
That's the whole point.
Andrew (50:48):
So fun.
Well, chris, like we learn, Ipersonally learned a lot because
I'm not I didn't come from thescowl and I don't dattle that
much there, so like just talkingyou about it and getting
insights.
Fantastic, everything youshared is so cool and we're
gonna have links in thedescription, of course, for
bands and recommendations andother kind of places to click
around and learn more andhopefully some music and some
(51:09):
more recommends on the Blog.
Will (51:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna check out the Frightners that
that story sounds like one ofthose like flash in the pan,
albums, like yeah, lightning ina bottle.
It had to happen it happened.
Chris (51:18):
It was big and then Unfortunately yeah you, you
listen to it and I thinkimmediately just like what could
have possibly happened had thisnot taken place.
Because, they'd seem primed toput out a lot more stuff.
Wow, yeah well Smash it.
Will (51:36):
Like and subscribe.
Hit us up on the stuff.
What he said, yeah, sounds likeit's Facebook and Instagram.
Andrew (51:42):
YouTube.
If you're out, well, you're onto, but you might not be on
sound, so I guess TV.
Will (51:47):
Yeah, what else we got.
I think that's it oh thank you.
Thank you again, chris.
Thanks guys, it's wonderful andand check out some scoff.
Andrew (51:57):
Yep Cheers to that.
All right, thanks guys, thankyou.
Alright hello! Welcome to Sound Sagas we've got another
episode for you.
We are here with an interview.
We have a special guest here,Chris Pennant.
My name is Andrew, of course,and of course we have Will.
Will (00:29):
Yep and Chris is a former Jewel Osco employee, avid
walker, and chicken tenderenthusiast.
Sure, yeah, but I'll pass themic to you.
Why are we here today?
Chris (00:42):
Oh well, not to talk about the chicken tenders,
unfortunately, because I thinkthat's really important.
There was somebody who wentaround a while back and tried to
find the best tacos in the city, which I still want to do, but
there's a space to find the bestchicken tenders in the city,
but when?
Will (00:57):
you think of ska?
Chris (00:58):
Will.
What's the first thing youthink of?
Andrew (01:02):
Don't say chicken tenders.
That's all you have.
That's all you have.
Will (01:07):
Brass instruments, skanking, I mean it could go on,
but that's kind of straightwhere my head is.
What's your?
Chris (01:16):
experience, because it's about experiences in the music
as much as the music itself.
Right, totally.
Will (01:23):
I mean, I'd say one of my seminal experiences was I was
really into that band, real BigFish, went to a lot of their
shows and one of the best showsI ever went to was one of their
shows and my car got towed.
And that was the first reallife.
(01:44):
Yeah, I felt that way because I was deciding at the
show.
It's like my car is probablygoing to get towed Should I go
fix this or should I stay here,and I decided to stay there.
Andrew (01:55):
Were you enough into Real Big Fish where it was like
that didn't matter, that's whathappened?
Will (01:59):
Yeah, that's wild, yeah, and my dad got mad at me but I
was like yeah it was a greatshow.
Chris (02:03):
Yeah, Real Big Fish.
You know what?
That's actually really cool.
Will (02:06):
Yeah, and then I later on got into the more classic like
specials and scatolites andstuff like that.
Andrew (02:12):
What era was this in your life?
Real Big Fish.
That show was 2005.
Okay, did this get you intolike?
Did Scott get you into like?
Perhaps like punky era or likemore dynamic?
Will (02:22):
I think it was a gateway music into more punk and
hardcore stuff too.
Yeah, cool it was interesting.
Yeah.
Chris (02:29):
Well, that's it's.
I had a kind of a culture clashbetween the two because so my,
my dad, was Jamaican.
He didn't stick around longerthan I think I was one, but I
found out.
But my mom told me a lot abouthim and she had music that he
liked, she liked.
They both liked recordings ofthem singing this stuff into,
(02:50):
you know, a recorder like amicrophone at home.
Will (02:53):
Oh, wow.
Chris (02:56):
So I I eventually, as I, as my life went on, I got into
some of this music.
But when I was in high school Iwas a St Ignatius and I played
trombone from grade school upthrough high school, up through
college, I passed that.
And my good friend Danny Lopak.
Shout out to Danny, still agreat musician in his own right.
He was a musician in the UICMusic Program.
(03:17):
He was in a Celtic rock band inmy freshman year when I met him
and I thought this kid was thecoolest.
He knows he's not cool, hethinks he is, but he knows he's
not.
But he was.
He was different.
He was wearing like flat Irishcaps and and he had punk rock
patches all over his jacket andI wanted to be in this band more
(03:40):
than anything that I had that Ihad done at that point.
And he was like well, there'sno trump, there's no trump bones
in the Celtic rock band, as I'msure you could both gu ess.
But he wanted to do something,not just with me, I think, he
just wanted to do this band aswell.
And so he was like, well, let'smake a ska band.
Will (04:01):
And I was like, oh yeah, I know ska it's like because I
had seen Good Burger and I knewLess Jake, Jake Real Big Fish,
Mustard Plug, Mighty, MightyBosstones.
Chris (04:12):
because my other friend, Chris Curtis from grade school,
went to Jones and that was wherehe jumped off, because he
played trumpet in grade schooland I played trombone.
So we went our separate ways.
He found his group over there,and they formed this band called
Random Outburst, and it waslike third wave to the hilt ska
punk ska-core, Voodoo GlowSkulls, Streetlig ht Manifesto
(04:37):
[bababababa] like that, likethat fast and so when when it
came together when with that,he's like no, we're going to do
like ska like he called it ska,he was like basically saying
like the other stuff was not andmaybe a more traditional than
like third wave.
Like, yeah, yeah, like reallygoing back and I he made me a
tape.
I don't remember every singlething on it, but there was this
(05:02):
recording from like the 70s Ithink nobody's still nobody
really knows who made it.
It was either the clash and thejam or one or the other, or you
know a mix of guys from thosetwo groups.
There was just thisinstrumental track, instrumental
track called Rudy ska, and it'sreally nice, really smooth
(05:24):
saxophone, trumpet, trombone,like a trombone solo on it.
There was that.
There was the message to youRudy was on it.
I think a scottelites track wason it.
So you basically this was likemy crash course and it was funny
because some of this stuff wasfamiliar but I didn't know why.
Will (05:43):
And the sound is like seminal ska to you like it's
like that is it?
Chris (05:47):
Yeah, well, it's like that's what it was.
And then, as I got more deeplyinto it, as we played our, as we
started playing our music andour sound, it became like really
this first wave ska, almostlike rocksteady reggae in some
respects, I learned more aboutoh, this is where this music
that I already liked comes from,because we had a Bob Marley CD
at home, we had Peter Tosh albumat home because this was the
(06:10):
stuff my mom and my dad listenedto.
So it was finding out that, butalso finding out, okay, what is
this?
I like this music, I want toknow more about it, and so that
clashed with what thepresentation was in media, which
was pretty much oh, ska, thathorrible, annoying music from
(06:33):
the nineties dresses up in acertain way and plays trumpet
loudly in your face.
I watched this show stillcalled Legend of Tomorrow that's
on the CW, part of DC's TVshows, and I make a ska joke, I
think in the fourth or fifthseason, and it's not uncommon
(06:55):
for shows to still crack thosejokes.
Will (06:57):
It is kind of weird how that's like a punchy down thing
that is in multiple media isbecause I definitely heard that,
jay, before too, and it's weirdtoo, because the third wave
stuff like Less Than Jake getsstill pulling huge crowds Like
they just did a tour last year.
Chris (07:10):
Yeah, no, I heard about that and I kind of wanted to go.
Hello, Rockville is still oneof my favorite albums, it's not.
I like music with horns,because I came up playing jazz
and band music, so I like skathat has horns in it and not a
lot of Less Than Jake has hornsin it, I think, once they really
hit their stride.
But I still really love that.
(07:30):
It's just a lot of fun.
I think that's the big thingabout these different styles of
ska and so why it's annoying.
When I hear people say that,when I hear people make that
joke, like oh, ska is annoying,I'm like, well, listen to this.
Or well, more succinctly, Iwant to like hit them so that
they can be more receptive to metelling them to listen to
(07:52):
something.
Yeah, that's really how.
Andrew (07:53):
I think it's part of the people who say that I think
they're just.
They're obviously pigeonholingthe whole genre.
They're just saying the wholegenre is much more dynamic than
you can.
I mean, you might hate onething you hear that might be ska
, but there's like all differenttypes, right.
Like if you hate one ska bandit doesn't mean you're going to
hate another.
So I think those people theyjust they just think what ska
might is in their head and, yeah, they don't really realize that
(08:14):
there's much more to it.
Chris (08:15):
Like I don't know where that picture came from, if it
was like they had interactionswith people at shows or at clubs
or bars or whatever, or havethis idea of people wearing
fedoras and skinny ties or what.
Even that was a uniform forpeople who liked this music, but
(08:36):
those people who wore thatuniform would kick the shit out
of you.
That's the whole thing aboutrude boys.
Yeah, it's punk music Right.
It's like whether it was inJamaica or whether it was in
London or wherever, sheffield orwherever you didn't mess with
those guys, like they werelistening to this music, like
(08:57):
laid back rock, steady, kind ofyou know, pick it up, put it
down music, but they would jumpyou, if not just throw the ones
with you and knock you out.
So I don't know where thatperception came from.
If it was like a retaliation,like oh, we don't like getting
jumped by guys with fedoras.
Andrew (09:16):
Creepers and Find that the styles of music that invite
like uniform or likeself-presentation or identity
that is definitely likeCounter-cultural or against the
grain, like looking different,like those styles of music tend
to sometimes get punched at alittle bit more.
Chris (09:33):
Yeah, which makes sense because like the people I know
who, like metal, are definitelylike.
Will (09:37):
I.
Chris (09:39):
Know school too, like the goth metal kids, and I think
the whole idea is like you'reit's like any kind of grouping
right, you want to get withpeople, so you're in larger
numbers and you want to likeappear.
You're doing it for safety, soyou want to look a little bit
tough, and so the goth metalkids look hella tough.
And I met with, I met them androlled with a lot of them and
(10:00):
they were like a lot of themwere very shy, yeah yeah, very
like low-key people andintroverted and this was their
like way to be out, right, right, this was their way to like be
extroverted and be kind of outof the in the culture when they
felt like really comfortable.
My, my guys like that.
He's a very shy, low-key guy andI've seen clips of him singing
(10:20):
in his band Nice completely nice.
Andrew (10:24):
It's amazing how people can find that outlet right,
especially through music andright and identity right.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you likedid ska when you're like getting
into it or your foray into it.
Did that help develop yourpersonal identity or help you
connect with Family ties orhistory or anything like that?
Chris (10:39):
not necessarily with, like my, my family in Jamaica
Okay, I haven't talked to themin a little while but I think
with that identity that was withmy dad specifically it helped
connect with that because a lotof that went into.
Like he was a cricket fanbecause West Indies cricket in
the in the 60s and 70s when hewas coming of age, saw its
(11:02):
Ascension into world popularityand a lot of that was tied to
ska, rock, steady, then reggae,really like roots reggae stuff
for me.
I remember going to see Midwestska fest before the same Chris
Curtis and a lot of the peoplethat I knew from Jones.
Pretty much took it and ranwithin a few years ago because
(11:26):
what it was when we were youngKind of folded and he's like
what we want to keep doing this.
So I remember my mom drove meand I was like this is what I'm
gonna wear.
She's like you can't wear that.
It's it's November, you'regoing to freeze.
So I was wearing a white dressshirt, black suspenders.
I had these clunky, clunkyrubber sole dress shoes that you
(11:48):
made me where I really wantedto wear my check tailors and she
was like you can't wear that.
There's ice on the ground andslush and you're in uniform.
Yes, I was, but I was definitelyin my element.
I was in my element and I Thinkthe way that the music goes, no
matter where it where, if it'sfirst wave or third wave, the
(12:09):
whole point is that you'redancing, and so it Integrated a
lot of what I already knew fromgrowing up on the South side,
going to school where I did,where Footwork and juke music is
such a part of Chicago that Iwas already like this is what we
(12:30):
did at parties.
We dance like, we dance hardand we dance fast.
And so, going to the show whichagain is not necessarily the
sky that I came on to talk aboutprimarily, but the outgrowth of
it we danced hard and we dancedfast, we danced long.
So you just kept, you went, youwent, you went, you went, you
as hard as you could, you triedto keep it up, keep up with
(12:51):
everybody.
Andrew (12:51):
Definitely music of movement.
Will (12:53):
Yeah, yeah, and that's what.
Chris (12:55):
I r eally connected with it.
That's what I've alwaysconnected with about Ska.
Like you move, whether you'reon stage and you're playing and
you guys played in bands youknow that you have to keep your
energy up and know, yeah, whenand where to conserve and when
and where to really hit.
Go for it.
Yeah, but Ska, if you're like,if you hit that level and then
you just keep trying to gohigher, it's it's wild for that
(13:16):
because that's a lot of it butit feels so much like the jazz I
played in college, especiallywhen we had the crowd on our
side.
Bradley jazz concerts were a lotof fun because the crowd that
came was an assortment of people, not least because Some of the
people that were in the bandlike me, guy Jonathan Day, who's
(13:38):
from South the South suburb aswe played saxophone, we knew the
black students at predominantlywhite school and we had a few
other people in the band whowere in the same boat.
So those kids came out tosupport us because not only they
like the music, they felt likeit was important and I don't
think I recognize that as muchat the time.
(13:59):
But like seeing guys from myfloor that we blocked our floor
in sophomore year and then theycame out to our jazz show and I
was like, yeah, this is cool.
So that was there, was thatassorted movement there where
they were in an auditorium butyou could see people wanting to
or getting out of their seatswhen we played a song, that was
like, okay, it's time for you tomove, and I think that was
(14:22):
different for what we had thenAt that school.
And so sky was a lot of thatbaseline for me that came from
years before, because this isthe music I heard and even when
we played in this group, thatDanny and I made with our guy
Jim Cada, the back alley skanks.
Andrew (14:42):
Long live the back alley skanks.
Chris (14:45):
Oh my god, but that was our whole, our basis.
We had our fast songs, we hadour slow songs, we had our
get-up songs, we had our youknow listen.
We had our high schoolintrospective songs.
I will not tell you any of thenames of these songs.
Andrew (14:58):
I bet they're pretty juicy.
Chris (15:01):
Man.
You know those guys havemarried and have kids now and I
don't want to ruin theirreputation.
Will (15:11):
I mean one interesting note on that, though not that
aspect in particular, but SinceScott such a defined music style
or like, has such a feel to it.
Oh, I see a lot of covers inthat zone like a lot of people
just redoing songs in that stylethat are huge.
But I kind of wanted to touchback on what you said about it
being a safe space and like itsuch an unique, like Experience,
(15:33):
because that's kind of whatbrought drew me into it, was
like it was a very Like you knewwho was into it.
Everyone who went to thoseshows was all about it, like I
mean, I have checkerboard bandsand like a hat and I felt kind
of silly if I wore that toschool, but if I wore it to the
show I knew right other otherpeople be dressed like that.
Andrew (15:53):
Some of these musical spaces seem to have like clearer
, more defined boundaries thanothers, like it's not just like
soft rock or yeah, contemporarymusic, like if you're in the sky
and you're at a ska show, youcan pretty much guess the type
of dress you're gonna see andthe type of person you're gonna
kind of interact with.
Will (16:09):
But at the same time like, since it's such a high-energy
fun dance, like if you like tomove and you like music, but
they say I have a good timethere low, low or buried entry,
for instance.
Chris (16:20):
Maybe then like yeah, we're buried entry and just a
fun style music like it was veryfun Like the funny thing is I
think that is really similar towhere ska started from, because
I know we're kind of getting Notahead of ourselves, but it it
shares a lot of similaritieswith the like development of the
musical style in itself,because in the Caribbean, but I
(16:44):
mean primarily in Jamaica.
So it was mental and calypsoand it was a lot of like
combinations of African andEuropean rhythms that Meshed and
melded, but then out of thatcame like the 40s and 50s R&B
from the US which was a lot ofNew Orleans Boogie, woogie
before doo-wop, like.
(17:05):
A lot of early ska stuff isreally similar to a lot of 1950s
Doo-wop, like when you think ofFrankie Lyman yeah and the, the
teenagers that you had, AltonEllis and I think The Flames.
Like it was like James JamesBrown started with the famous
flames right but also a lot ofreally similar stuff to that
(17:28):
very popular dancing music likefor kids right.
I mean, it's like people, likeyoung people.
Their Jamaica was moving towardindependence, colonialism was
reaching its like nadir, and,and so there was this, and it
was the post-war, post-world Wartwo.
So yeah, rock on kind of likeexpansion of okay, well, we want
(17:50):
to Celebrate, we're out of thewar, we're out of, we're coming
out of colonialism, we'regetting a bigger voice.
And there was this expansion oflike dance not dance hall in
its sense that we know it now,but like Dancing on on in places
, on places on the corner, inthe streets.
Sound systems that came upwhere it was literally like we
(18:11):
got all this stuff in a van,we're gonna take the party here
and you get out, you got thespeakers, you have all these
guys in the system were DJingand here's the party and we're
gonna create the party.
It was like a block party in amobile setting and that's where
this is all kind of created andit wasn't necessarily a safe
space, for you know people tocome, that's everybody to come
(18:34):
out, but it's like you knewwhere the party was and that's
where you went.
And that was kind of the nacentbeginnings of scams, like here's
where you go, where you hearthe music that you want to hear,
that they're not necessarilyplaying on the radio.
That's where the kind of thesafe space comes in.
It's like where do you go toget this music?
You know you want to hear it,where do you go to get it?
(18:55):
And it's like, okay, such andsuch, like Duke Reed has his
sound system, he's going here.
Cox and Dada has his soundsystem, he's going here, Prince
Buster's sound system's goinghere, Dicky Wong's sound
system's going here, and that'swhere you went, like Small
Island, but all these differentplaces in Kingston where people
(19:16):
were coming out of out of likethe rural settings, out of the
farms, to go kind of see wherethey could seek their fortune,
and it was like, well, you putin a 40, 50 hour week, now what?
Will (19:29):
Time to party.
Chris (19:30):
Yeah, let's go.
Andrew (19:31):
Sounds like at least back then and there, like it was
a combination of bigger factorsthat all kind of came in like
from technology, like theability to have remote audio and
like get your stereo out, orboom boxes and stuff, and then
you had the like you said, likethe decline or the bottoming out
of like external rule of thecountry, for instance, and then
(19:54):
you have all these factors thatcome together and then it
creates this almost like hotbedor like the fertile soil for
this to generate and start, andit's the people who actually go
and do that Like yeah.
Chris (20:05):
When you mentioned Soft Rock, it's.
I don't know necessarily thebasis for it, for I know the
music right.
I don't know the underlyingfactors.
Andrew (20:13):
But a lot of these different styles.
Chris (20:15):
There's a lot of similarities I see between ska
and hip hop which makes a lot ofsense, because hip hop wouldn't
have been possible without ska.
To a certain degree, as much asit owes to funk, it owes a lot
to ska reggae, because thatstyle of like talking over a
(20:36):
record, that's where reggae andtoasting and then hip hop came
from.
Like the first Cool Herk wasJamaican, so there's this
something in the sound, whetherit's from the horns, whether
it's from the beat or what, whenyou're talking about movement.
It was speaking to people onthis way, and then in the lyrics
it was talking aboutindividuality and kind of a
(21:01):
sense of consciousness and selfin that melting pot of
post-colonialism, post-warexpression, like moving to the
city and kind of maybe being onyour own for the first time, and
so that's where a lot of thisreally fleshed into.
(21:22):
And so when I know we're notdone right, but when people say,
oh, you know, that bastardprobably even likes ska, I'm
like what are you talking about?
Like this is a very integralidea, not just to me, but kicked
(21:43):
off a lot of things that youlike, Like without that basis
like where we went to like duband dance hall, well, drake
wouldn't have a career.
First and foremost, like Drakein Toronto, had owes a lot to
the Caribbean people that movedup there.
But when you had that trackwith Rihanna and Hotline Bling
(22:06):
and all that, that's soCaribbean dub dance hall Almost
right.
Will (22:12):
That's in the same category.
Chris (22:13):
Even like, this is one of my favorite albums.
Andrew (22:16):
Dan and Paula yeah.
Chris (22:19):
That same old mistakes.
A lot of influences there too,even though there's, you know,
you think of horns when youthink of ska, and there's not
necessarily horns on that, butthat heavy kind of offbeat.
There's so much that ties intoit.
Andrew (22:34):
Yeah, yeah, you can even like, I guess in a more
contemporary way, with ska, likereplace the horns with keyboard
, yeah, and like get the samesort of oh yeah, that's like and
I actually Shabba Rex, all thatstuff, that's what they do.
Will (22:46):
Through that whole history too.
It just made me think like Imean, a lot of music is like
this, but ska in particular, italways seems to have had one
step in the past and one in thefuture, you know, yeah.
Because it's so accessible.
If you play a horn, you can giveme in the band, but you can
also play guitar and be in theband or, if you're, you know,
using a synth or whateverthat'll fit into.
Like hip hop also has that kindof trend where it's like every
(23:09):
time there's new tech stuff, Ifeel like hip hop is the first
thing to do it.
Oh, dude yeah, but ska just hasthat such like longevity too,
which again blows my mind whenyou say like people are making
fun of people just on the street, because I'm like this music
has not only been around for along time, it's coming to the
mainstream three huge times andcountless others.
Andrew (23:29):
It's almost hard to even conceptualize why people like
have a thing against ska, not tosay that like, like ska hate is
like a big thing.
Will (23:36):
Like no, I can't, I can't imagine.
I feel like we're like talkingabout we don't want pickets,
Pickets, we don't want to.
Andrew (23:41):
No, it's not just the ska man, but we have noticed in
our personal lives and justdealing with it.
People kind of like if they'regoing to talk trash about
something, it's usually countryor ska or something like that.
Will (23:49):
Something like that.
Andrew (23:51):
But you're right, you're like, if you look into ska,
even if you just read theWikipedia on it, you'll realize
like there is so much dynamicsand so much time and culture and
history and everything thatgoes into it, and yeah, yeah, I
guess.
I guess the sound just kind oflike hits some people.
Will (24:05):
It's like some people don't like jazz, you know.
Andrew (24:07):
Like yeah, which I find weird.
Chris (24:10):
I think I remember talking to somebody and I think
he said he didn't like.
It wasn't that he didn't likejazz, he didn't like the
reaction that he got when hesaid he wasn't into jazz from
people which yeah, I meanthere's some elitism there, I
guess too.
Andrew (24:27):
That goes with it.
I mean, I come from heavy metal.
It's like the king of elite,elite mofos.
You just like think everythingthey love is the best thing in
the world.
Clearly not true, no?
Chris (24:37):
it's an interesting thing and I think there's we're
talking about like barriers toentry, and ska is like I'll talk
to people about like we'redoing right now and I'll tell
them.
It's like hey, this is wherethis came from, this is what it
is and like, if you think aboutX group or X group or X group, a
lot of what they like wasinfluenced by this sound, but
(24:58):
even more, you know, centralthan that like it was.
A lot of it started out as alot of protest music.
What started?
It really started out as moreof like kind of do what?
Like we said, boogie, woogieromance music and then when it
started moving into rocksteadyand reggae really, because Bob
the whaler started out as a skagroup Then they moved into
reggae and it moved into thatprotest music.
(25:21):
And when it got to two tone andgot to the UK and got big again
, a lot of it was protestsagainst like the 80s and
thatcherism and likederegulation and all of that.
So I was just reading somethingthat there was a.
There's a group in the UK oh,captain Scott, as they're called
(25:43):
, and it's like just a group offreelance musicians so there's
never one specific person who'son every record but mainly what
they do is put out protestrecords.
So pre-Brexit, like the DavidCameron coalition government,
they wrote a protest song aboutthat.
Then they wrote another one,and another one, and another one
and they just kept it going andthat's been their.
(26:04):
Their MO and their deliveryvehicle is this because you know
, as much as people might wantto make fun of it, something
about the music and the rhythmsand the melody speaks to people
in a very, I think, visceral way.
Andrew (26:19):
Yeah, I guess the maybe.
The word for that is like.
I don't want to say rageagainst the machine, but like,
but it's that sort of there'ssomething that you're saying.
What you're saying is there'ssomething about the music that
inspires like, like something inyou to go against the grain or
to speak out against something,or to feel empowered to say what
you believe in the face ofadversity.
(26:40):
Or let's say like, like I don'tknow overarching governments or
bad politicians, whatever, like.
I guess the question is like isthere something inherent, at
least for you, about Scott thatlike gives you that?
Chris (26:51):
maybe it's the physicality of it, maybe it's
the movement of it, some of it'slike having played it and
knowing that you're usually youliterally using your wind, like
the breath in your body, to playit, and that's what I've liked
about being about it myself.
But I think it, if you thinkabout it like that you're
breathing in and out when you'removing, and there's something
(27:11):
where it just kind of I thinkthere's that idea of what Marley
said about get up, stand up.
That is still inherent in thatmusic.
There's judge dread and judgedread dance and the judge dread
dance.
Is this a judge just handingout sentences?
And so there was this idea ofnot being rude boys, as that was
(27:34):
coming into vogue.
Like as more people move to thecity Kingston which Kingston,
pretty much the city likethere's Montego yeah, so we're
talking strictly Jamaica rightnow yeah, before before I moved
over to UK and London.
But it's like you know you wantto be rude boys.
(27:54):
It's like get 30 days and it'slike I didn't do this just a
hush up going to jail, but it'sone of my favorites because of
it's it's talking aboutsomething that you know real
life.
This is not something thatactually happened, but it's an
expression of reality in song.
Will (28:15):
So it was recognizable for people.
Chris (28:17):
They knew what it was because they've been a part of
it or seen it happen, and itwasn't necessarily that they
were like oh well, this is songstelling me not to get into
trouble.
Some people were probably tookit as like yeah, that's the
anthem.
You know it's like that was me.
I was in front of the, I was infront of the Bailey last week,
something like that, but I likethat song and that's what really
(28:41):
pulled me on the Prince Buster.
And then Don Drummond isunheralded for a good reason.
The short story about DonDrummond is that with the
scottalites, who everybody knowsfor, like Guns of Navarone, he
(29:02):
was the trombonist with thatband and they were student
session musicians, pretty much.
So if they, if, if studio onebrought in somebody to sing and
they wanted, like horns in theback, scottalites would be the
session musicians.
So there's all these namesassociated with the scottalites,
(29:22):
like Tommy McCook and LaurelAitken, who did move to England
and lived there for pretty muchthe rest of his life.
But Don Drummond was thetrombonist and he was very
prolific in a very short amountof time.
If, like, if you look up onYouTube, you'll find a lot of
Don Drummond tracks and werethey sessioning for mostly ska
(29:45):
music or kind of anything?
mainly, mainly ska.
I think they hit on somerocksteady, but this is like
that doo-wop kind of boogie skathat we talked about.
Will (29:55):
Yeah, it was just hugely popular.
They were just pumping outrecords like as it moved towards
reggae.
Chris (30:00):
That's when you get to Desmond Decker, more so, and
like Bob Marley and the Wailersand Alton Ellis, who, when you
talk about people doing coversbefore yeah, a lot of the stuff
they did was like covers of UKof songs from the US or the or
other places that were doinglike that kind of it, like they
(30:24):
would do covers of songs likeBlue Moon.
Alton Ellis did a cover ofSitting in the Park by I can't
remember the artist name, I, butit's like an old doo-wop
favorite like if you, if you goon YouTube and you look up like
lowrider anthems, like the stuffthat was coming out of LA in
the 80s, that's a lot of whatthey covered in the 50s and 60s.
Will (30:48):
I mean it's funny too, because I mean we were talking
about this earlier.
But just how many artists, fromwhatever style of music, have a
history of those standards,like it all?
Started with jazz, but likeeverybody is kind of playing a
standard, even if they don'tknow it at a certain point yeah
yeah, this is like a familiarity, right it's literally the same
(31:09):
song, it's just differentiterations of it yeah, like
these songs are, like it'stimeless, where it just keeps
going and going and going.
Chris (31:16):
I think part of it was that there was an allowance for
it because I was, as I wasreading, there was a certain law
that wasn't on the books inJamaica at the time so you could
just record another songwithout paying any royalties to
the original artist orrequesting clearance to cover it
.
Kind of like we're talkingabout hip-hop.
Kind of like how early hip-hopwas sampling, like you sample,
(31:40):
get away with it, and then youdidn't tell anybody who you
sampled it from and you didn'trelease, like oh, we got it from
this record and pray digginbecame that.
It was like guys went over tothe US, heard the, heard songs
on the radio while they wereworking.
I think see either Derek Morganor Cox and Dodd that I mentioned
before that he went to the US,worked for a while, heard this
(32:02):
stuff and was like inspired.
He bought a turntable, a fewvinyl records and some other
equipment, came back to Jamaica,had studied carpentry and so he
built his own sound system withthe stuff that he got and that
was what they and what they wereplaying at first was stuff in
the US.
Like they would get theserecords and play these records.
(32:23):
Then they would have somebodyrecord these records a new
version of the same song.
Then they started writingoriginal stuff and that's how
you got people like PrinceBuster and Laurel Aiken who
became famous for singing these,for singing this music and so
going to Don Drummond, like heand the scottlites were not
(32:46):
unique, but they were some ofthe names that really became big
and stayed big in the earlyfirst wave for just doing
instrumental stuff that was morebombastic, more jazz, like I
mean, they were just very goodmusicians, yeah, like they
played.
(33:07):
They played, you know, jazz andbebop and kind of orchestral
jazz from like the 30s and 40s.
They grew up, they came upplaying that and so then they
were playing this music.
That was very much Scott like.
This became what I knew wasfirst wave Scott, but it was
sometimes just instrumental andDon Drummond, in like a three,
(33:28):
four-year period, put out somany of these tracks like Scott
Town.
If you look up Scott Town,don't have this all on this
playlist, but Scott Town is oneof my favorites and this is hard
driving, just really, reallygood song and last like two
minutes and 25 seconds that'sactually something that's a
totally interrupt, but thatturned me on to Scott in the
(33:48):
beginning too, is that all theseguys are just really good
musicians too right.
Will (33:52):
That's why they can pop out all these covers, that's why
they can play all thesearrangements without having to
write it down, because I comefrom a band background to like a
plate French horn and trumpetand tuba yeah yeah you didn't
seem extra pretentious.
Thank you, thank you, but no, I.
French horn was interestingbecause you could play all these
(34:12):
other instruments by learningthose fingerings and it was kind
of the same thing.
So I had a stand with trumpet.
I knew a little trumpet but itwas the slides, so I didn't
learn that as well.
Chris (34:22):
But yeah, just amazing musicians to throw it back no,
and and Don would have gonefurther, but he was.
He was found guilty ofmurdering his girlfriend, which
is a, which is a wild story,like everything that I've read.
He, I think in this day and agethere's not a lot of.
It's hard to doubt the storythat the result?
(34:45):
she was stabbed in the chestfour times and I think he was
the only one the person there.
When they found him he said hesaid that he didn't do it, he,
somebody else had done it, buthe was found guilty.
He went to jail and died likethree, four years after that.
So you have this really shorttime period of this guy with
this group who was one of thecreate like the main creative
(35:09):
forces, and his stuff is still.
It ranks up there with a lot ofother trombonist you could
throw out and for a very odd andsomewhat maligned instrument
there's a lot of really goodtrombonist like who's it?
Kevin you banks, brother, theTonight Show van leader, his
brother, robin, is fantastic.
(35:31):
I put Don Drummond up againsthim and Kevin you banks, robin
you banks is ridiculously good,but it's.
It's one of those.
Really it's a reallyinteresting story out of that
first outgrowth of Scott and Ithink that's part of something
that people don't know about.
It gets overlooked when there'sbeen.
(35:53):
You know, when people talkabout Darrell Abbott right, we
talk about musicians who diedyoung and really inspirational
to people like Don back Darrell.
You talked to a certain sectorpeople.
They're like oh yeah, dondrumming yeah, one of those big
ones.
Andrew (36:09):
Yeah, I wonder as scas waves propagated forward like
did.
Do you think that the musicalcomplexity or some of the
technicality of it got maybelike diluted or you know how,
like he got Scott core, he getcore versions of something right
.
Is it sort of that samementality or that same idea?
Chris (36:27):
um, it's interesting because the speed picked up okay
right, like you especially thepunk side of it.
Well, even before that, like alot of second wave and two tone
was faster and I don't know ifit was just because, well you
(36:48):
know, cars got faster andeverything like the speed of
life spread up, so I think therewas some of that to it like
there's two different versionsof one step beyond.
There's the Prince Busterversion okay, that is kind of
like like that speed, yeah.
And then the madness version islike it's got, it's nice to get
going, yeah right but I mean thespecials, like Ghost Town is
(37:10):
not a not a fast song, it's avery mellow song, I think when
you got into the 90s, I don'tknow what happened, man.
Will (37:18):
I don't know what happened when.
Chris (37:18):
Scott got to the US like proper.
I don't know if, like most ofthese third wave bands, were
just like I don't like were theysnorting coke or were they on
speed or what and they were likewe want to do this as fast as
we can, yeah, yeah, because itkind of got there.
(37:38):
But there was also moon skyrecords out of New York that had
the not the slackers, not thespecials, but, like I think, the
toasters.
I Hepcat.
Hepcat's really big.
That was on moon scott.
Will (37:59):
And what like your range where it was this day this was
like early 90s.
Chris (38:03):
I got a lot of New York and northeastern Groups formed
around then it was it was kindof a weird confluence where they
weren't Like the swing revival.
That lasted three, four yearsright but Alex Day's air.
That was in Hepcat and was oneof the main vocalists for that
was in swingers where they havethat scene with John Favreau and
(38:24):
Heather Graham and they'redancing to.
Why can't I think of that band?
They did the theme song forthird rock from the Sun, but
they were like one of the mainbands in the swing revival.
So it was that kind of oddperiod where this musical style
was coming back around again andwhat those bands did on there
were mainly on the moon skyrecords label Was a lot of first
(38:46):
wave and fairly mellow stuff,but it was in even heavier.
It was, I don't like, almostlike a cool jazz Version of it.
It was really even moreinfluenced by that kind of West
Coast Chet Baker style of jazzand the first.
Hepcat record good vocals, goodmusical Composition, bad solos.
(39:11):
It's funny.
I love that record.
But they would tell you like,oh yeah, these solos were Pretty
elementary.
As they went on, I think theyput out four or five albums the
second and third ones.
You can tell they really workedon it.
My favorites I just saw themplay a, a Gena.
(39:38):
I just went to see these guysbecause I was like, oh god, they
left Long Island.
I never thought they're gonnaleave Long Island, but they were
playing all over the place inthe early part of the 90s and
2000s and then they pretty muchplayed like Long Island how
shows Technically sound and theywere playing some fast stuff.
But they also played.
(40:00):
There's a version of caravanthat they have on their live
album.
That's a little bit up tempo andthey could lay it back when
they wanted.
It was just kind of Morebombastic and I don't know if
that necessarily had to do withthe time period, to like Gulf
War I there's.
There's a great quote on someYouTube video that I cannot
remember.
It was a hip-hop video but itwas like I'll never forget the
(40:22):
90s, drinking a St I's on thefront porch, bill Clinton
getting dome in the White Housewith a banging economy and I
think there's just this feelingin the mid 90s that that was
similar in a way With that,depending on where you were and
what was going on.
Like you're coming out of the80s, you're coming out of the me
(40:45):
generation, you're coming outof the crack epidemic and people
are talking about it, and someof these things are on the low
where people's like, hey, thisis, this is where crack and coke
came from but there's also thissense of Not just I'm doing
this for myself, but also thesense of Fuck it, I'm going for
(41:06):
it, and so I think that's a lotof what third wave Scott is or
became where it was just like.
Will (41:12):
There's a bit of yolo there right, yeah, yeah part
time and like yeah, I was likethe skate culture was coming
mainstream yeah and so like.
Chris (41:20):
Warped Tour dropped and Lala was still going and like
early, early, lala Palooza, andit was just like you know what
one Warped Tour did a lot forthat.
Will (41:29):
That, oh, part of it too.
It was huge Dude some of those.
Chris (41:34):
You look back at some of those Warped Tour lineups.
This is a little aside.
Some of those early Warped Tourlineups had bands on the on the
docket, depending on the city,but I don't think you would ever
, ever, ever see on the samelineup together again.
Oh yeah big time like any yard.
D played like 2001 Warped Tourand they are.
It was like any RD and lessthan Jake.
(41:57):
And then something like mychemical romance or something.
Will (42:00):
I mean it just makes no.
Curation was like an early LalaPalooza where it was kind of
just whatever the stafferswanted, yeah.
And then it turned more intothe Poppunk vehicle which, like
I mean coming back to Skaw, likeall that Skaw stuff pretty much
directly started Poppunk typemusic yeah, huge in Florida,
(42:21):
huge in Chicago as well which islike kind of indicative.
Chris (42:25):
Oh, and then you were.
No, you're right, it was so Iforgot about that.
A lot of bands came out of notjust South.
Florida, but, like I think,gainesville was the epicenter
would.
Will (42:34):
Yeah, I had spent some time there with a bunch of those
bands, like I think I went towrite the art camp.
I worked at Mayday parade.
Two of those guys worked at theart camp interesting.
Yeah, that's cool Like I've everseen those people around
Florida all the time and thencame here and I was like, oh,
it's still here.
Chris (42:53):
So I think there's just always a foundational element to
it.
It's not just people gettingtogether with a bunch of horns
and trying to play as loud asthey can Totally.
It.
Always there's a basis for itand they're playing something
that that was coming from hereand here and that they're kind
of throwing out.
When I go see my, my guyChris's band is Running punch
(43:14):
and so when I go see run andpunch is very evident it wasn't
what they're singing about andwhat they're playing and how
they're playing it that they'retrying to Put something out
there that's within themselves.
We're talking about passion andsoul that's in them right even.
But they put out a single whileback, called another day and it
(43:34):
was like I think it was liketalking about a breakup, talking
about job Was there still veryprevalent then, as it is now
like five, six years ago whenthey came out with it and that's
the reality that we're in,right like same as when they're
in the 50s, 60s talking aboutthis is the reality we're in 70s
, 80s.
This is the reality we're in.
In the 90s it was not so muchbut it was kind of contextual.
(43:59):
This is the reality we're inexcept for well I.
Know, I don't know if you couldsay that about I'm a dude from
good burger, but it's it.
It would really Be a good themeright now because I'm a dude.
Andrew (44:17):
She's a dude, we're all dudes.
I remember watching as a kid Ihad the orange VHS.
Will (44:38):
Nickelodeon.
Andrew (44:39):
VHS was orange and, like my brother and I thought that
was the greatest thing thatmovie cracked us up, I mean it
plays at the Logan theater everyonce in a while I saw about a
year ago with Craig.
I think there's I think there'sa timelessness to that movie,
for oh yeah, it's still justfunny.
What, uh, how would you saythat?
Like sky, like 2023, likethings this year think, or even
(45:01):
last year?
Will (45:01):
maybe or what's now.
Andrew (45:03):
What's what like, what's vibing, like, what's hitting
release with you.
Chris (45:06):
I mean, like, like I said , I love my friends, so run and
punch is still one of myfavorites.
I like listening them, eventhough I think they're they're
not as much on those like on theScott putt cutting edge as they
were when we were in highschool, which makes sense.
You're in high school, you havethat invincibility factor
(45:27):
turned up to like 12, yeah, andyou can dance all night.
Now we're in our 30s and we candance for maybe, you know 45
minutes and then we have to takea break and then come back to
the floor.
But I Like run and punch a lot,and a lot of the bands that I
mentioned before, like StreetLight Manifesto, were still
(45:47):
putting good music.
Yeah yeah, but it's, it's for me, it's really.
I stick with the stuff I know.
Okay, and some of that is justsituational, right, don't go as
many live shows or pull as manynew, new, pull as much new music
as I did when I was young.
Will (46:10):
I mean one guy I pay attention to who's newer is the
Scott to network person.
Oh, yeah, yeah, I forget thename of his actual band, but
their last couple records Ithought sounded great.
Chris (46:22):
There's a really interesting and sad case.
Sorry to keep ringing up thesad cases, but there was a band
out in New York, the Frightners,that put out one album and it's
frighteners, with no E in themiddle, and they are very much
like.
How did they fit into that lateScott Rocksteady reggae vein?
(46:42):
But their album came out in 20,2012 or 2014 one of the two,
but they.
What happened was that they hadto put it out and they were on
a time frame Because they foundout that their lead singer had
ALS, so there was only a certainamount of time that they could
get everything in Before hisbody started to fail.
(47:03):
So they only put out the onealbum and then they said we're
not doing the frightenersanymore.
But, this came up when I waslistening to some other music
that was like more old-schooland it just came up in the
YouTube mix and I was like thisis really, really good and it's
it's a sad story because theirlead vocalist voices Fan
(47:23):
absolutely fantastic.
It's perfect for that kind ofmusic and the way that they
produced it Elevated that aswell as their band on the whole.
Andrew (47:33):
You're saying the Frightners are an especially
special kind of project.
Yeah, I mean they were.
Chris (47:39):
I mean they were.
You know they were trying tokind of do what Hapcat did.
You could see a lot.
I could see a lot of Hapcat inthem, not just because they're
both from New York, but they hada lot of early Scott influence.
That sounded there wasproducing a low fidelity kind of
fashion, but it didn't.
You know it wasn't right, itwas good, it was tight.
Andrew (48:01):
There's an aesthetic choice to that low, finest right
.
Yeah, right.
Chris (48:04):
Yeah, their album cover had that that look of it.
Do I check out that Frightnersalbum.
It's worth it.
It was really really, reallyworth it.
Will (48:12):
But also it's a good recommend to talk about.
Yeah.
Chris (48:15):
Prince Buster is my favorite.
Prince Buster's timeless.
Prince Buster's not goinganywhere.
The scottlites still play atReggie's every so often.
Will (48:24):
Yeah, I was gonna say they're still around and they
still sound good.
Chris (48:27):
Yeah, the lineup changes but they're still the scottlites
, so it's worth it.
Like Desmond Decker'sshantytown, the scottlites doing
James Bond is.
Any, it was like you could tellit was right.
In that way of like coolCaribbean in the 60s, like when
(48:49):
dr no came out and they were inI think they were literally
either in Jamaica or theDominican Republic you could
tell it was like, okay, peoplewant this, but yeah, that's
what's got it.
So it is not.
It is not some goofy.
Like even the goofy stuff isnot goofy.
And I take the people who arestill Whether they're rude boys,
(49:10):
rude girls, rude people are not, whether they dress that way or
not, they'll still kick yourass so.
Just if you're gonna crack jokeson scottlites you know, do it
behind the safety of yourkeyboard.
Andrew (49:23):
I mean, I think even just you know people taking a
look at the history and thenjust going to a show, like, like
we said, it's such passionatemusic it's hard to yeah, yeah, I
think even if you're not versedin either the technicality or
the Musicality of it, and evenif you're not big on like the
sound of it, like just being ina room full of people Moving
their bodies and feeling themusic.
(49:44):
That should be enough for mostpeople to like, be like.
This music makes some sort ofsense to me.
Chris (49:50):
You get swept up.
Yeah, even like the pins andthe buttons is always somebody.
It's always like a guy, or islike the guy with the sunglasses
with his with his feet up, orthe girl in the dress With their
feet up, and you go to a showand that's what it is.
And I like that because there'sother music that I like and
I'll go to shows for it and itis a lot of like.
Lot of head bobbing Like slowhead nod yeah, music yeah.
Will (50:17):
I can, only Can't do that I feel like, yeah, I think, feel
like what you're saying is likeif you're gonna be there,
you're gonna be there a hundredpercent.
Andrew (50:24):
You want to move, you want to feel, you want to like
sweat, you want to like get itout.
Chris (50:28):
You gotta come out of the show, yeah if it's wintertime,
you got to come out of the showknowing like, okay, don't catch
a cold, you gotta, you gotta,wipe this off yeah make sure you
bundled up.
Will (50:41):
Gotta get my 45 minutes Go outside take a break, then go
back in.
Chris (50:47):
That's the whole point.
Andrew (50:48):
So fun.
Well, chris, like we learn, Ipersonally learned a lot because
I'm not I didn't come from thescowl and I don't dattle that
much there, so like just talkingyou about it and getting
insights.
Fantastic, everything youshared is so cool and we're
gonna have links in thedescription, of course, for
bands and recommendations andother kind of places to click
around and learn more andhopefully some music and some
(51:09):
more recommends on the Blog.
Will (51:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna check out the Frightners that
that story sounds like one ofthose like flash in the pan,
albums, like yeah, lightning ina bottle.
It had to happen it happened.
Chris (51:18):
It was big and then Unfortunately yeah you, you
listen to it and I thinkimmediately just like what could
have possibly happened had thisnot taken place.
Because, they'd seem primed toput out a lot more stuff.
Wow, yeah well Smash it.
Will (51:36):
Like and subscribe.
Hit us up on the stuff.
What he said, yeah, sounds likeit's Facebook and Instagram.
Andrew (51:42):
YouTube.
If you're out, well, you're onto, but you might not be on
sound, so I guess TV.
Will (51:47):
Yeah, what else we got.
I think that's it oh thank you.
Thank you again, chris.
Thanks guys, it's wonderful andand check out some scoff.
Andrew (51:57):
Yep Cheers to that.
All right, thanks guys, thankyou.
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