Ep. 5 - Formats at War | Sound Sagas

What if your music experience was defined by more than just the tunes? Brace yourself for an immersive journey through the evolution of music formats and their profound impact on our consumption. From the Walkman to the iPod, and the resurgence of vinyl, we discuss the remarkable engineering, the intimate experience of physical vinyl, and the unique artistry associated with each format. 

Have you ever wondered about the allure of collecting vinyl records in different formats? Sit back as we unveil the intriguing world of vinyl records, including the 10-inch record, seven-inch record, and flexi discs. We also uncover the significance of physical artifacts that accompany music, and how they add emotional depth to our listening experience. From the era of USB albums to the startling art form of cutting grooves into CDs, we discuss the pros and cons of each format and their unique selling points.

We round up our sonic exploration by pondering over the future of music formats. We discuss the surprising resurgence of cassettes in heavy metal subgenres, and how it offers an economical solution for artists. From the game of Hexadic's contribution to music creation to the impact of Bluetooth streaming and wireless communication, we examine the implications for the music industry. Tune in for an entertaining and insightful ride through the ever-evolving landscape of music formats!

Episode Transcript

Will (00:19):
Hello, welcome to Sound Saga.
On today's episode we aretalking formats, all things,
formats, everything from Sony,walkman, apple, ipod, I mean
right here I'm holding likemaybe the two things that change
of yeah game changers in theirdecade and this is not an OG

(00:40):
Walkman, right?
No, the original.
This is the original originalthat one's from, so that one's
from the 80s, yeah, yeah, butit's not the.
That's like a sports version.
There was the original WalkmanI've seen in Guardians of the
Galaxy is the blue stainlesssteel one?
Yeah.
With the orange button yeah.

(01:00):
Came with a leather case too, apremium product yeah.
I wish I could have snagged itbefore the movie blew up.
But, thanks, james.
Gunn, and then the iPod, not OGeither.
Actually pretty, I don't know,not super late into the when
they were making these thingsbut not far from the OG?
What year was that one?
Do you remember Poof?

Andrew (01:21):
Maybe I can see a copyright on here 2007,.

Will (01:23):
It says copyright 2007.
Yeah, I remember the originaliPods had the separate four
buttons and then the scrollwheel, and then they were the
brilliant athletic Like buttons,no scroll.
Put the buttons on the wheel.
Yeah.
Exactly the capacitive buttons,Right.
I remember my friend had one inhigh school.
I remember that day actually,he was the first one to get an

(01:44):
iPod.
Same, my friend had one too,and now, the moment I saw it is
the moment I started saving forit.
I was like that's a gamechanger.
I was like I got one of those.
There's things in life that youmight want this is neat, as
someone into music to have itall in high quality format.
Well, and you remember too, wasit the black and white menu you

(02:07):
were scrolling through?
But even that was like that wasamazing.
Years beyond what we were doingand the simplicity of it,
because all it did well.
I guess later there's like sillygames and stuff, but no, Videos
like your two, and you couldwatch this never caught on
watching videos on these things,but I mean phones, but yeah
phones, basically your phones,do all that.
This without a control and likemuch more software.

(02:28):
But yeah, basically the idea ofa computer with a hard drive
and a simple interface, and itplays music.
Yeah, and it's always on there.
Yeah, and the battery's goodit's fits in your pocket, mm-hmm
, chuck it in the car.
I think much of the sameconcepts that made this thing
immensely popular is just theease of use.
Well, and to your point, like,still use that.

(02:51):
Still use my iPod Nano Mm-hmm.
Smaller scale.
But you know, if you're in anairport with no wifi, what are
you gonna do?
You know precisely.
Also, there's a look andaesthetic to one of these that
harkens back and puts you in themindset to really enjoy
something that was meant.
And if you slap it, on yourbelt.

(03:11):
you look really cool that istrue.
Yeah, this thing maybe you couldlike magnet to right here.
I don't know, yeah Little chesspiece.
But it's a good point.
I mean all these topics becauseformats like.
The idea with format and musicis that it eases the consumption
or the experience of listening.
Right, yeah.
Makes it better, it's supposedto enhance and provide all you

(03:33):
need to enjoy the art formwithout getting in the way.
But the problem with anythingphysical that you can hold in
your hand, there's always anelement of it being in the way.
Right, Right, you have to learn.
Control interfaces you assimple and as brilliant.
Actually, as someone whodoesn't like Apple products that
much, this thing was amazing.
This thing was like yeah, it wasan innovation.

(03:54):
I handed this to my.
I remember handing this to mymother and I said you just do
this and press these buttons andshe can't figure out a damn
thing.
She figured this thing out intwo seconds.
I'm like how did?
You in mass market a musicconsumption device that so
simple and also so easy to use.
Yeah, amazing Big thing withthese things with me is I never
understood how they got theheart.

(04:14):
There's a spinning disk, harddriving.
Right, it's not flash, and how?
they got that.
You could hear it.
Yeah, you could, and you couldfeel it.
Actually, the spinning motionwill you know, like a top that
you spin and it resists tipping.
Yeah, if this thing's at fullbore, you will feel it kind of
resists your tipping, right Ifyou hold it flat.
Yeah, how did they get thathard drive to last?

(04:36):
Like people, toss in the engine.
Good engineers.
Yeah, it's a small, you know asmall, very complex mechanical
drive with tiny little parts andpeople toss these things.
I remember I had a case on this, but the purpose is the
demonstration, you know, gettingit out of the case and naked.
A little 2007 escape here, yeah.

(04:56):
So, like formats, theyobviously change a lot with how
we interact with music.
Well, and they define how musicis listened to Exactly.
You know you can't getsomething that's recorded in
studio to sound exactly likeit's going to sound in there
everywhere, right, it's justimpossible.

(05:17):
So I mean all these mixing andmastering and like all the stuff
that everyone talks about doingto tracks and albums, it's like
an effort to either make itbetter or make it sound like it
sounded in that person's head.
So these formats are importantbecause that's the delivery

(05:37):
mechanism for everything it'salso the delivery mechanism for
the additional art that goesbeyond just the music.
Yeah, the visual.
That's how it's consumed at all.
It's part of the experience.
Yeah, and I think showcasing allthese different types and we'll
have a few more examples foryou here in a second like
showcasing all this variationsamong formats and between

(06:01):
formats, is it's enlightening tosee, like, how that mixes with
the consumption of its time,right, or how people get music,
Like in a prior episode wetalked about, I think, shopping
at Best Buyer, buying CDs at thestore or going record shopping.
Like these things aren't.
There might be resurgence now,but like online is the new king.

(06:22):
And it digital downloads,digital being the format of the,
I guess the future and youmentioned like realism, like the
idea of like music beingdelivered to you as precisely to
the artist's intent as possible.
Digital obviously offers that,but what digital doesn't have is

(06:43):
like a sound quality or a it'svery neutral right.
It can be whatever you want,flat neutral.
Yeah, you can describe it a lotof ways but yeah, getting the
artist's intent in there isimportant and format has a lot
of play, in that, vinyl being ago-to format for people like

(07:04):
really, really into like someextra element to the music,
right?
You hear the words warm, yeah,and analog tossed around a lot
yeah, headroom maybe.
Headroom, spacious roomy yeah.
As meaningless as those wordscould, or maybe like it is

(07:24):
different listening to somethingon album than digital just is
Totally, and it describesfeelings, yeah.
You know you can feel a certainway about something listening on
record, on tape, on digital.
Absolutely, it's equallyimportant even if it's not
factually represented, RightRight, you know how you feel

(07:44):
about something I find thescience and engineering of all
these formats interesting, butthey bear no weight in my.
You're perfectly right, likeit's all about.
There's more than just like thesound going near us.
It's about the experience.
Like, for instance, with analbum, like a setup we have here
, it's more common to like sitput on an album than maybe sit
and listen to it.
Then, like click the button onyour computer and not do

(08:06):
anything else.
Right, the computer does otherthings, but the record player
does one thing.
Right, it's intentional,exactly, it's very intentional.
So that has nothing to do withthe sound of the music, but it's
part of the experience and,like we mentioned with the
Walkman and the iPod, like theexperience of engaging with
those products and using them.

(08:27):
Changes can change everything.
Right.
Yeah, I mean on that note too,we can kind of dig in to what
we've got.
Yeah, I mean, formats have beensomething people have thought
over, argued for, argued againstfor a long time.
I mean currently, in thedigital age, we can kind of go

(08:50):
over a few things that we thinkabout and that are very
prevalent, like is it better tohave MP3s or have a lossless
format or record digital toanalog or analog to digital?
I mean I know myself likeshopping on bank camp a lot.

(09:13):
You can get flax, get thoseflax, get those weights.
Mp3s, yep, so kind of best ofboth worlds there.
But why does that matter?
Or like, how would that have animpact on higher listening to
it?
I think the truth with digitalis that the differences in the
variations matter less than itdid with other formats Like that

(09:36):
might sound weird at firstbecause you're thinking like, oh
, like 256 kilobit MP3s, likenot the greatest, or 128.
I mean, I think, especially now,that's true.
Less true now because we're notstreaming 128 kilobit MP3s
anymore.
Right, right they're.
You know.
We're at a point where thesound quality is good enough
with most things that mostpeople don't care.

(09:56):
Yeah, so you're not going tomiss out.
You know, getting an MP3 versusa flax now, yeah but here's the
thing like but when we grew upwith it, you were yeah
absolutely.
But if you collect, that'swhere the difference becomes,
because the part of the matterof collection is ensuring that
your collection has the best thelongevity.
Exactly, and so like, forinstance, a lossless file, like

(10:17):
a WAV file you can download fromBandcamp instead of an MP3 is.
You can crunch that into anyMP3 you want.
It's the.
It's lossless because it is themost they can give you.
It's also the largest file sizewhere flax comes in, as it's
half the size.
Same lossless right.
Yeah.
It's better in coding, but butyeah, these things like they

(10:40):
enhance.
I think they enhance the musiconce you, once you start getting
into collecting, once you startgetting into collecting and
like growing like a personalkind of library.
Totally.
And I mean there is thisconcept in physical media.
Yeah, pretty, perfectly likearchival.
Yeah, like what makes paperarchival, what makes, you know,

(11:00):
certain media archival?
Just having a losslesscollection or Quinckwood
lossless makes it easier downthe road, it does.
No matter what Yep?
And there's not really a baddownside to it at all.
No, except storage space.
But storage tape is so cheapthese days, storage wise, and it

(11:21):
keeps getting cheaper.
Yeah, like one cheap hard drivewill hold all the music you
would ever need.
Wav yeah, they're not.
They're not enormous, likevideo files maybe.
So, yeah, you have some.
You have some cool, cool piecesof format here I mean music,
but like yeah, so Tell me somestories.
What do you got Pick?
one.

(11:41):
So we were just listening to arecord Boy genius.
You guys know what a record is?
Obviously, yeah, I'm justkidding the record.
Yep, and you know 12 inch vinylpretty normal.
But as formats go, this is kindof what people buy lately it

(12:03):
seems like Vinyl resurgence.
You may have heard or talkedabout with other people or read
online.

Andrew (12:10):
That's definitely a thing yeah.

Will (12:12):
That's selling the year last year, I think you mentioned
that.

Andrew (12:15):
yeah, Since the 70s.

Will (12:16):
So people are definitely buying vinyl still.
So like something like this youhave too much content for a
seven inch record, so you needto put it on a 10 inch.
You don't quite want to produceor pay for a 12 inch, right?
That's kind of where these comein.
They were more popular in the Imean, I think there was a

(12:37):
resurgence in the 90s a littlebit, and then 70s Quite rare
though, right, not a popularformat.
I'd say yeah, like a lot ofpeople won't choose to do this
because it's more expensive thandoing a CD or something like
that.
It's a little less kind of bangfor buck than a 12 inch or a

(12:58):
seven inch.
Some people re-release thingson 10 inches because they think
the quality is better.
Radiohead has done this, likethe KIDA record came out on 10
inches with a higher speed.
So like these are at 33 and onethird.
But what people will do isrelease a higher speed 45, which

(13:23):
is what seven inch recordstypically run on, and then say
like well, if the needle ismoving faster, but the deli is
better, yeah, which, like youcould get into it.
Yeah, just Google that.
But yeah, Google that we'll seein a couple weeks.
But people get in habits ofreleasing 10 inch records, like
a couple 10 inches for a 12 inchbecause they're run at 45 speed

(13:47):
.
Yeah.
Whether that's better or notjuries out.
Yeah, I do like exist.
I kind of like.
I like the side.
I think sevens too small isholding it.
You don't get a bigger piece ofartwork with like visually.
Yeah, it feels like the almostthe right size.
It's a substantial piece ofmedia.

Andrew (14:06):
Yeah, Whereas an album, you know you're.

Will (14:08):
you got a box in your foot .
I was really lugging themaround, but right and they like
the 10.
So boxes because of that.
I record stores.
You don't often see bins of 10inches, do you?
Know you get your sevens andthen you got your regulars, but
like yeah, yeah, it's cool.
That's, that's I like that.
That's really neat that youhave that.
And then they get smaller, aswe all know.
Right, yeah.
And they kind of got a batch ofseven inches here, because you

(14:32):
know, much more like if you endup with a stack of these
eventually at some point Exactly.
And if you are playing singlesor DJing, this is kind of the go
to method for playing tracksand then switching quickly.
You know people release these.
It's usually side A, side B,two tracks, sometimes more than

(14:53):
that.
Pretty quick and simple way torelease something.
Here's my favorite.
There was a fad to do flexies,which are plastic that has been
engraved with the music.
So you can, you know, put thisdown on a record player.
Play with a weight sounds notthe best.

(15:17):
Yeah but it gets the pointacross.
Worse than cassettes.
I think it's worse thancassettes, yeah it looks pretty.
It looks like not a lot of greatsounds coming out of that thing
.
Yeah, that's a losing race.
to begin with, flexies andpopular with some magazines too,
because they're so easy to slapin.
Great Prima piece in the 90s.
Exactly yeah, when you couldn'tput something digital out, yeah
, a flexie was the answer.

(15:37):
If anyone is in heavy metalspace and isn't aware, you can
get your flexi discs withdecibel mag.
Yeah, very collectible.
They should still be doing it,yeah absolutely, and I think
it's cool that they do that.
Yeah, they're, they're, yeah,they're collector's items, I
think for the best part.
Well, that that's.
that looks very collectors rightthere.
Yeah, so again seven inch space.

(15:59):
You have a lot more room, a lotmore headway to like do some
more interesting things.
So you pull die, cut on this,burke back one Translucent vinyl
before that was super popularyeah, just a cool kind of
collectors piece.
You can get a lot of seven inchstuff like that Test pressings,

(16:21):
so what a lot of people dobefore a record comes out.
You have a select amount oftest pressings that come from
the plant and they're sent tolabel heads, artists, people who
are best in the album.
A lot of times he's come backas just blank discs.

(16:41):
You know there's some engravinghere that shows you what's side
A, inside B.
You know where your songs areand this is one I did where you
can kind of see I don't know ifthe light will show that yeah,
it's getting a little bit.
Yeah but one side is thickerthan the other as far as like

(17:02):
data and that's because we didthis one at 33 speed and 45
speed, so you can do differentspeeds on the same record.
The reason for that was we justwanted the songs to kind of
fill the space equally on thepress itself and then also just

(17:24):
try to see like what soundedlike having a 45 speed versus a
33.
Right, so kind of a cool.
Basically the proof of proof ofif we make a bunch of these,
they won't be messed up.
We're testing out the waters,yeah, exactly.

Andrew (17:37):
Yeah, and to have.

Will (17:37):
These are not sold and they're traded on a used market.
But the purpose of that was notto sell.
It's basically a stop gapbetween two steps in the process
.
Yeah, and I mean, we did end uppressing and found the released
ones do have a 33 side and a 45side which we didn't tell people
because we thought it'd befunny if people kind of flipped

(18:00):
it over and got us sped up orslowed down.
Yeah, other song.
Yeah, and kind of just touchingon the record community, a
little bit more little Roselland or Dougal record I bought
and you know the person includeda note that said like hey, I
ran out of like new sleeves, soyou put a used one here.

(18:22):
You wrote on it like a posteror a little note.
Yeah, not a problem, but nowit's part of the album's history
.
Love getting little artifactslike that.
It's a good.
I like stuff like thatcollecting wise, format wise,
having physical media.
One thing you miss with digitalis like a paper trail almost of
like that pieces history, notthings that that change the

(18:43):
value of the of the thing orimpact the quality or the
preservation of it, but they'relike little bonus add-ons.
Yeah, I think you know it's fromgifted CDs, for instance you
know, it's all ephemeral, solike having those artifacts of
other people touching it orhaving experienced it, it's
always kind of a cool thing, itrounds out the whole story of

(19:04):
the of the piece.
Right, yeah, and you totallymiss that in digital I'm a
proponent of digital.
Me too, I have a big librarydigitally.

Andrew (19:13):
Yeah.

Will (19:14):
I cherish my library but I cherish individual albums like
the actual physicalrepresentation of them because
they come with a lot, like a lotof my gifts.
They come with a note orsomething Sometimes in my past
journalism career I've doneinterviews and get gifted CDs
and albums with a handwrittennote to save all that stuff Like
oh, yeah, yeah, and it justmakes it a better experience.

Andrew (19:36):
Yeah.

Will (19:36):
You know, every time I listen to that, I see that, so
it's something you can hold onto.
Final makes it easy.
You just drop the little noteright in the sleeve.
It's there forever.
Exactly yeah.
You know, if you put that in aCD it'll pop out or get lost, or
yeah.
Yeah, yeah, totally, and kind ofa last one here, just to kind
of well produced in the seveninch from Holy Motors.

(20:00):
You know it's got the sleeve.
Commonly you'll do a sleep likethat, where it's digitally
printed both sides and then justa regular seven inch with the
label there.
So kind of a good example ofhow to do it right too, if
you're just looking to make aseven inch.

(20:21):
A lot of this might seem likerudimentary as far as people are
age, but, like you got torealize, the farther we get away
from music and even consideringthe vinyl resurgence, a lot of
genres of music are not vinylheavy.
A lot of people don't haveinterest or want to go through
the preparations and necessitiesfor playing vinyl and that's
like totally cool and fair, likeit's not.

(20:43):
It's not exactly, it's not likea requirement to get the best
of anything but and it's anexpense.
You know it is an expense Teninch or a ten inch, or can be an
investment if you buy the rightrecords but like it's an
expense.
Because you end up buying theones you want.
Yeah, it's going to cost you afew thousand bucks to make a
seven inch and that's two songs.

(21:03):
You could release it online forfree, exactly.
And I was talking about like theexpense of like just buying and
owning Right Finals areexpensive compared to cassette,
cds and just buying digital.
But you get the whole, you geta whole package right.
You get more than just themusic, you know, you get all the
totally get the art andwhatever else story wants to
throw in there.
But yeah, like to see how itwas done and maybe before times,

(21:29):
but how we've adapted that,because we liked something that
we did back then.
We liked something about vinylkeeps bringing people back.
Totally, and it's.
It does have that nostalgiafactor, but it's also still a
very viable format.
It is Like I enjoy albums.
I have albums digitally in onvinyl and I'll listen to

(21:49):
whichever format sort of fits mymood at the time.
If I'm like working and I wantto hear something, I'll
definitely digital, because I'mat the computer.
But, if I want to sit and listenand it's an album that I have
on vinyl, it's so much nicer tosit and just watch it spin and
listen, just pay attention tothe music Totally.
I get that much more often withvinyl than with digital and

(22:10):
that's kind of why I maintain asmall collection.
Well, on that note, you want tomove into CDs here.
Oh yeah, so back in our daythere was this place called Best
Buy and they had these thingscalled CDs.
I mean, they're still around.
I'll let you talk about this oneif you want to.
Oh, Deftones by Pony.
Yeah, yeah, not my favoriteDeftones album, but no, no, it

(22:31):
is mine no.
It's okay, because it's a greatalbum.
There's no question.
There's a parental advisorysticker on it.
They still do these, don't they?
Or not, as I don't think they.
You know, I'm not sure if theydo.
actually, that's how removed weare, I guess, from buying CDs at
the store.
They can't because you go toany record store and you don't
see it anymore.

(22:52):
I mean, we also buy from localstores, maybe that's the
difference.
Yeah, mainstream Target andstuff still does that.
In any case, there's an entirediscussion to be had on parental
advisory right, like for theparent who doesn't have the time
to research everything and justwants to know yes or no, or
basically relegate the decisionto someone else or some other

(23:14):
entity, and also trust the Trustwhoever's putting this on,
Whatever advisory board is doingthat Like my kids and then they
don't buy anything that hasthat sticker on it.
I'm like that's great for sales,that's great for everyone,
right, yeah.
But we could go all day aboutparental advisory, but it is
cool that this still-wrappedexample of Deftones by Pony has
got the sticker and everythingon it that indicates that if you

(23:34):
listen to this, you'll go tohell Straight back yeah.
Deftones yeah, yeah, just waittill.
Deftones I have CDs that havevisions of gore and terror and
all the deepest, darkest deathmetal you could think, with none
of these stickers.
Yeah, that's the silver coverwith a pony.
Yeah.
I remember my first album withparental advisory sticker was

(23:58):
Smash Mouth.
I can't remember what album,but it had a sticker Hasher
Lunge.
It had a sticker.
No, it did Really, it did, ithad to.
I have a memory of it Now.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I could be wrong.
Give me comments.
I give you 99%.
That that's right.
I think it did.
I think walking on the sun.
Yep, I'm like scratchingthrough the whole thing.

(24:20):
now they say, they say fucking,they're somewhere.
I know it.
That is one of my favoritealbums, by the way, low key.
I have to appreciate that album, even though I can't listen to
it anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
And then another one of mylater albums and this is more
embarrassing was the Offspring.
So whatever song, whateveralbum, pretty Fly for White Guy

(24:44):
was on, I can't remember thename of the album.
I remember the cover.
Me too.
It was like blue with a skull onfire or something, and if you
opened up, the CD booklet.
there was visions of horrorinside, like cartoon
monstrosities of devastation.
You should definitely Googlethe album artwork book that came
in for the Offspring, yeah, forthe Offspring.

(25:05):
The CD insert because, wow,yeah, parental advisory for sure
.
On that one I'm still burningmy Smash Mouth on you, man.
Only a few times, and I thinkit was the last song and the
Smash Mouth one we have to.
We'll verify that.
Yeah, yeah, I'll have to lookthat up because that was one of
my first CDs, that in SavageGarden, savage.

(25:27):
Garden.
Ok yeah, my first CDs wereEiffel 65.
Nice Blue, yeah, the blue song,it's so embarrassing, it's
crazy, right, and then it'sstill a good song.
I think the first actual CDthat I had that I would say now
I still liked probably MetallicaCD, that's pretty good.

(25:49):
That was the easiest metal.
I've gotten into.
I think it was Injustice forAll.
I think I'm pretty sure I wentto Best Buy.
It was like, ok, getting intoheavy music, metallica, like
easiest entryway into the heavyworld, and I think they were out
of Master of Puppets.
I just flipped through andgrabbed.

(26:09):
I was going to say that wouldbe the one I ever wanted.
I thought you would have gottenfirst.
Now I eventually had that in alltheir other CDs.
But yeah, and then back in theday driving in the car, CD
booklets you take all your.
Cds out of these plastic cases,because once you have a bunch
of these it gets a little messy.
And then you have your.
I still have mine from highschool CD book.

(26:32):
I almost brought a couple,because I still have a couple of
them.
Not a bad way to do it UntilMuch more compact, until this
thing came out, of course.
Yeah.
Until Leopud.
That's awesome.
And then, for me, cds.
The value for me is you getartwork, you get a physical

(26:53):
representation of it, but allthat this CD contains, all it is
, is the WAV files.
So there's nothing else to thisother than digital WAV files,
meaning, if I download theseWAVs from Bandcamp, they are
precisely the same as the WAVson here.
Exactly, and I mean the way theyget around, that is, by
rereleasing these things, whichthis one is, and add DVDs or CDs

(27:15):
with more content.
So if you buy a CD, you are notnecessarily getting anything
different with the music, unlessthey specifically master a
different thing, which I don'tthink anyone would do.
Sometimes they remaster, ok,and then my CD only the remaster
or something, yeah, but whatyou do get is anything else.
The artist wants to make thispackage complete with right, and

(27:36):
that's just a huge proponent.
That's just one reason whyphysical media will always be
have some level of popularityuntil, I don't know, until the
cyberpunk apocalypse.

Andrew (27:48):
Yeah, or until we're all one consciousness.
Yeah, the singularity.

Will (27:53):
Yeah.
We are the singularity.
Please insert CD, and then wewould already know about it.
Shit, yeah.
And CDs still have a lot ofvalue.
I mean there's kind of a lot ofdifferent ways you can package
it and do it.
You got your paper, you gotyour yep yeah.

(28:15):
I mean this is like a demo.
So after the age of cassettes,which we'll get to, people just
burn CDs and put their music onthere.
You're cutting it on yourcomputer anyway.
Burn it a quick demo and thensend it to your label or people

(28:36):
you trust.
I remember kind of circulatedaround.
Yeah, I remember when CDRsbecame a thing.
I remember getting my first.
I think my parents had bought anew home computer and it had a
CD writer drive and the moment Irealized it had that I was like
wait Burning till nighttime Yepand then like, as soon as I had

(28:57):
that, I went to school withlike 30 of these and started
giving it, and then you end upwith one.
Well, I mean it was so prevalentlike system of a down release
their record on a CD that saidlike burn this album and it was
on a kind of CDR format.
Yeah it looked just like a CDR.
Yeah, super cool, fun thing forthem to do.
Steal this album right, or burnthis album.

(29:18):
Steal this album, yeah.
Steal this album is right, yeah.
And there's another dimensionof that obviously is like just
mix CDs for everyone, or likeyou can go farther with it and
like give a gift.
Yeah, yeah, and that's kind ofone of these.
Like someone made that for you.
Yeah, like a kind of custom.
You know it's the mix tapeclassic.

(29:41):
But you know, with art and youcan, you just buy a jewel case
and you can make something likethis for someone.
They even did like the littlepaper edge piece.
Yep, the little insert thereBack.
But I mean, in my mind this islike a totally produced thing.
Yeah, it's just, you know, amix tape, exactly For someone.

(30:05):
It's amazing that this era didexist not too long ago where it
wasn't a matter of let me shareyou this link online to this
music.
It was like I had to like, gohome, put a CD-R bond into the
computer, download the music orget it somehow, get it onto the
disc, burn it, take it out, putit in the packaging, put it in
my bag.

(30:25):
Remember to give it to theperson Like yeah, yeah, and
those CD-Rs.
It meant something.
It meant something it sometimeshad like printers too, where you
could print that label.
Oh, I had the right.
So on the disc itself.
Instead of hand drawing, itwould actually print on you.
Exactly, I bought a stained CDthat had a DVD that had an eye

(30:45):
on it, that's amazing Stained,the, I think, probably the
single greatest band in theworld.
Yeah, Ginny Lewis quotes themactually.

Andrew (30:53):
Oh really.

Will (30:54):
Yeah, I'll let you find that.
Yeah, I mean another way tojust distribution easy to make
CDs.
Yeah, a lot of labels didsamplers or do samplers when
they want to kind of get peopleinto their bands and it's a kind
of hit list of what they've gotgoing on.
But yeah, cds are veryversatile, cheap format to make

(31:20):
and they're not bad sounding.
No, they're digital.
Some other things.
I mean it's digital, like itsounds.
If you play a vinyl on aturntable and you put your ear
up to the cartridge and you haveyour speakers off, you can hear
the music.
Yeah.
Those waves are flowing, themusic comes when that needle

(31:41):
touches that record Like itcomes out of the record and the
amplifier only just makes itlouder.
A CD is digital from the start.
There are ones and zeros onthis CD.
Yeah, you don't want to put youreye up to that.
A laser is reading those groups.
You won't hear a damn thing.
And it won't make any senseuntil a digital to analog
converter is used, which everycomputer has and that takes

(32:02):
digital ones and zeros and makesit sound.
Yeah, a term that's thrownaround a lot now DAX, dax.
That used to be a big dealPeople are kind of getting the
vibe of what a DAX is and whybuying a standalone DAX might
make sense.
Yeah, yeah, and a lot of peopledo have them, even if they don't
know it.
Sometimes they're still 10.
Exactly, like a lot of streamersand like video game streamers

(32:25):
or other YouTubers who aren'taudio wizards or into talking
about music.
Specifically, they have DAXsolutions.
They aren't branded as DAX,they're branded more as like
podcasts or sort of audio gear,but they all have this.
Yeah stream DAX Yep.
Yeah, yep, which is really cool.
So what else we got?
We're going back in time.

(32:46):
Yeah, let's keep going back.
We're getting before.
We're definitely before, notbefore our time.
Yeah, there was a brief erawhere USBs were in play, right.
So USB A, that album, wasreleased, right, that's an album
.
This is a released album.
Comes with artwork and someextra Bonafides on there, but by

(33:09):
Magic Markers.
And yeah, I mean, there was anage where people were releasing
albums on USBs, mailing them toyou and then you kind of plug it
in play around.
And they put other things onthere too.
It's just, it's a thumb drive,and so there's, yeah, yeah.
I'm not sure how prevalent thisis now.
I mean, this is like I've neverseen there.

(33:32):
So there is some age to thisand you know, usbc is now the
king.
Yeah, I would.
I wonder what the costdifference, production wise of
mass marketing.
You know you don't need muchfile size.
I mean, what's a one-gamethumbstick nowadays at 99 cents,
although production?
on.
That is much more than a CD.

(33:52):
Yeah, okay, gotcha, so CD isstill the most equitable thing.
I guess we're talking a dollarversus pennies, or something.
Yeah, more upwards.
You know, it depends on how manyyou make.
But also, it's not a commonformat and it's not I think as a
one-off, it stands off.
But if that was the commonformat, we would have piles of
these things, right, just abunch of USBs sitting around.

(34:15):
It's not the right way to do it, but it's a cool way to do it.
It's a unique way.
Can you delete?
The files off of there, yeahit's a free format, so you can
buy the album plug it in andyour computer crashes and it's
gone.
Or you just like delete it as astatement.
I don't know.
I like that.
That's cool yeah not a lot.
You can delete a CD or W, butthese CDs are not deleteable

(34:38):
unless you break it now which.
I mean, there's an art formaround that now too.
Have you seen that, wherepeople cut grooves into CDs and
play that as music?
Oh, really, yeah, that'sinteresting.
So it's the lasers not readingthe cuts, but it's being
interrupted by the cuts andcausing.
Yeah interesting.
So, it's reading them in a wayit is, but not in the way that

(35:02):
it reads the normal Not intendedyet yeah, that's art.
That sounds like art.

Andrew (35:06):
That's smart, that's smart art.

Will (35:09):
You know what else rhymes with smart?
Continuing on.
We have.
I kind of want to throw asticker up.
That's art.
We got stuff that's older.
Yeah.
Are we gonna do it?
Okay, here we go I lovecassettes.

(35:29):
So the age of cassettes is notover.
Why Popular in the 80s, notpopular in the 90s?
And now they're coming back Alittle bit?
The value proposition.
Because they're cheap.
Yeah, they're cheap to make,easy to make.
There used to be a thing calledKasingles.

(35:51):
I love that.
This is the first time hearingof this.
Where, yeah you?
just put out a cassette and it'sgot a side.

Andrew (35:57):
A side.

Will (35:57):
B.
Yeah, you know, it's a 7-inchessentially, but some people are
doing it.
This is a Gene Lewis one andthat's simple paper sleeve and
you can just you can hand theseout of shows.
Yeah, cheap to make, good touse.
You got your classic kind ofclamshell cassette here with

(36:22):
artwork, just a regular cassette, I remember cars having
cassette players.
Yeah, my car did yeah, and it'sa good way to listen music.
It's just, you know, soundquality is not there.
It's more portable than arecord is, but not as portable

(36:43):
as a CD.
Right and the tape you can breakthem yeah.
You know you have to stick apencil in there and wind it up
sometimes, but you know it's away to go.
And then kind of a largerformat of that.
This was kind of in theresurgence where Kilrock Star as
a record label released A bunchof kind of samplers on their

(37:08):
label of cassette that's coolStuff, yeah, and some gold
cassettes here they're kind ofcool looking and then did a
little infographic insert of abunch of their bands and how
they interact.
So, so.
This highlights, like, thelevel of intensity that an
artist can get with any formatyeah, and you can.

(37:29):
Something like this is verycollectible and cool and
interesting.
You know whether cassettescontinue to live on in a
singular format, I don't know.
I think the value propositionwill always keep cassettes
around, unless something iseasier and cheaper or people
just can't play the damn thingsanymore because no one has a
cassette player.

(37:49):
Yeah, I agree.
And a lot of them come withdigital downloads, so you can
kind of get the best of bothworlds, where you have something
physical to hang on to and thenalso can download it.
Now in some subgenres of heavymetal, specifically, especially
underground black metal is whereyou find a lot of cassette
trading and a lot of cassetteproduction, some DIY yeah, where
an artist might hand, assembleand record to like 150 cassettes

(38:15):
, make all the inserts and sellthem on bandcamp all the way up
to you know you can have thesethings produced for you.
But this is where it gets crazy.
It's like most people don'tlike the way tape sounds.
Right, right, some people do.
Some people do Some people likethe way cassettes sound.
Yeah, and I can.
I'm not one of those people,but I can see why they like it

(38:36):
because the style of music callsfor that raw sort of harsh.
That's raw sort of harsh andcompressed sound right when it
comes back to this feelingswhere it's like warm and roomy,
but instead of that it's kind oflike harsh and Harsh and cold,
Cold.
Can you imagine anything better?
for raw black metal Like thatyou find on like the lowest

(38:58):
levels of the internet, Likethat's all music about cold,
harsh, horrible landscapes andwildernesses and all sorts of
you know lovely topics like that, and nothing exemplifies that
better than that rock hard, justnasty recording quality.
Well, and that is the case ofthe format working for the genre
Absolutely, where you know youdo want to record on something

(39:20):
that that makes sense.
Makes the music translate theway you want it to.
So for that use case.
I think that's a good use.
It makes sense.
I think cassettes will alwaysbe around in some way, but how
major of a player they are isgoing to change.
Yeah, I agree, I mean that'll bethe first to go.
They've had a lot of playlately just because of how cheap

(39:42):
they are.
Yeah, but again I mean we all.
I mean we've read about thevinyl kind of production
problems.
Pipeline problems, yeah, andthe same thing is true in
cassettes, probably to a moredrastic degree.
Really, you just don't hearabout it as much because a lot
of people aren't makingcassettes, yeah, but it's coming

(40:02):
back in such a way where, youknow, nac is one of the biggest
cassette makers in the countryand their backlog is like a year
long.
So I can see why a lot of thesefolks, at least in my circles
and music kind of deeper down,are just DIYing it.

Andrew (40:19):
Yeah.

Will (40:19):
And dubbing cassettes is a very cheap, easy way to do it.
If you have a master and youwant to put it on a bunch of
cassettes, there are options.
Basically, if you're on a budgetand like it's important to
monitor how much you're spending, but you still want to get your
music in the hands of otherpeople, there's probably no
other way, yeah, no cheaper way.

(40:41):
Dubbing cassettes is probablythe cheapest way other than
burning.
CDs.
I was going to say burning CDsis the cheapest you got to buy
the jewel cases you don't haveto you can put them in paper
sleeves.
Yeah, you can put them in papersleeves, you're right.
You're right, okay, yeah, butagain, it's kind of like what
works best for your music.
Yeah, and then kind of, I had anoddball thing here.
That's cool.

(41:02):
Guitarist Ben Chasney did acouple records called Hexatic
and Hexatic 2 and it was kind ofbased on a card game that he
made.
But there are rules around likewhich cards do what and how the
music is composed.
But those records were playedand composed based on this game

(41:24):
he made and he sold it withrecord so that basically when
you bought a record you couldplay it at home, yeah, and if
you're getting bored with yourplaying, then it's a great way
to like, mix it up and have somenew songs gamified for you.
It's cool.
Is there something beyond themusic that's still part of the
music?
Yeah, it's thinking like thatis a matter of thinking about

(41:46):
format, but also about your ownart.
Yeah, yeah, and he is a greatguitarist.
I mean, I think he got boredwith being so good at guitar and
then tried to gamify it in away that made sense to him.
I think that's totally legit.
Yeah, yeah.
So he did that and made a couplerecords based on that game.

(42:06):
I think one of the key takeawaysfrom format discussion is, like
format, one perspective onformat, not the only perspective
on format.
One perspective on format isthat it is the.
It is, it represents thecommercialization of the music
Right.
You can't talk about formatwithout talking about cost.
Like that it's the outputExactly, it's what consumers

(42:29):
will.
Yeah, it's like there's got tobe a vehicle to get the music to
you.
You can't see everything liveRight, but like that vehicle
matters in certain ways yes andother ways no, and it depends on
the genre.
But, like we're overall talkingabout, it's going to cost you
money.
And all costs.
Yeah, all costs money and, likeI, you know, all art should be

(42:51):
free in some ways.
Like you could say that it'snot a realistic proposition when
people who spend a lot of timeand effort creating these actual
physical things you can buylike don't generate enough money
or sustainability to live fromthat, from that time and tense
adventure.
Yeah, and the way our society isset up.

(43:12):
Right, you can't sustain alifestyle.
Right Doing that Now, and that'swhy I'm glad cassettes are
still around, because it allowspeople to easily to easily
support artists financiallyRight.
But if you don't have all themoney it takes to buy a bunch of
vinyls, like that's cool, likego down, like look at cassettes
and like that's that's, that'san option that I hope does not

(43:34):
go away.
I hope the cheapest option,whatever it might be.
Doesn't go away, because yeah,yeah, because he is cassettes.
I mean there should always besome options out there for
people and I mean, frankly,they're more sustainable.
Exactly, vinyl production is ahuge the yeah toll on materials.
There's a lot of oil that goesinto making that, there's a lot

(43:57):
of production costs and themachinery is expensive.
Yeah, I mean burn a CD, releasecassette.
These are more viable options.
A little bit moreenvironmentally friendly.
Yeah, it is good though, thatpeople don't have a habit of
throwing these things away.
Generally they stick around.
I think that the vinylresurgence is much more of a.
We have other formats, so we'regoing to preserve this one

(44:20):
intentionally, whereas back inthe day you know that was the
only format vinyl, or not theonly, but the main format, the
main one.
Yeah, you would have albums youjust don't care about.
maybe people just end.
I think I mean give away across, once the fad era moves on I
feel like we are in a fad state.
I think it'll get a lot morenormalized Right and prices will

(44:42):
get on hopefully.
I mean I was buying recordsbecause they were cheaper than
CDs.
They were like three or fourdollars and CDs were 20 and now
records are 20 and CDs areworthless.
Yeah so there's a lot of market, yeah, determinations that we
just have no control.
Yeah, the situation change.
Like we could record this sameepisode next year and have a

(45:04):
different, completely differentsituation.
Totally yeah, regarding formatsand their costs and the
commercialization of it.
Yeah, I think that's why somepeople are turned off by the
format thing, like some peoplejust don't care.

Andrew (45:16):
Right.

Will (45:16):
Whatever the music's on, I just want to hear the music and
that's like.
I don't, I don't.
I don't agree necessarily withthat perspective being complete,
but I'm fine with it because,like yeah.
I understand it, you're right.
The music is the point, yeah.
Yeah, it is worth researching.
Worth kind of knowing your shityeah.
Well worth researching whatyou're streaming on to, because

(45:39):
they all have different payoutsfor artists.
Yes, we talk about this a lotwhere, like you know, spotify
basically pays people nothing.
There are some other streamers,like title, pay a little more.
It's just worth knowing you knowwhat, what you're investing in,
point being that digital issort of found a new rock bottom

(46:01):
where artists can make the leastpossible.
Right, right, yeah, and it's upto consumers to change that.
So you have to measure your own,your own sense of what's right
and wrong and say, like Iunderstand the format and how it
does this, you got tounderstand like digital did
create that rock bottom floorwhere you could sell the most

(46:22):
music, pocket the most money andsend the least to the original
creator.
Yeah, digital allows that.
And I'm not saying to notlisten to Spotify either.
It's just, if you listen toSpotify, buy a record directly
from the artist or somethingright now supplement, like I
listen to, I have Google music.
They're all I mean.
There might be some worse thanothers, they're all not the

(46:44):
greatest for supporting theartist, yeah, so generally what
I do is, if I find a, if I keepmy bank or my music Google music
library, I'll put everythingthat I find that I like in there
and then all the stuff that Ilike or quite like I'll purchase
and support with by buying theway files on bank or something.
So I'll have it in my Googlelibrary but also have a the way

(47:08):
the like, the lossless formatthat I bought directly from the
artist or from the label.
Yeah, and it's important to justkind of supplement where you
can.
Yeah, you know, if you likeartists you're listening to or
or into that music.
You know just, we alwaysrecommend that.
Like, like, even if you don'teven have any albums, even if
you don't have a record player,you can buy a 12 by 12 picture

(47:30):
frame that seals the album, putit in there and then it's a
piece of decor.
Like you might think that'sinsane.
Like, why would you not listento it?
Well, it's a piece of music.
Like, in one day maybe you willbust it open.
Listen to it.
I think a lot of people do dothat, yeah, because oh, they do
that.
They do that more mindlesslythan I'm, than I'm describing.
Yeah, yeah, I like it as anintentional, intentional, like.

(47:51):
I want this because I like thisalbum and I want a memorabilia
of it even if like I don'tlisten to albums, right.
It is funny though, because I dothink I feel like I read this
somewhere, but a lot of peoplebuy records and they're never
going to listen to them which isfine because you probably are
listening digitally.
I have unlistened in mycollection.
Yeah, same, so they probablybuy them to like have this or

(48:15):
pieces or have around the house,just to have like I, you know,
like just to have is soimportant, just to have
especially analog meaning, likein theory, you could reconstruct
some kind of rough mechanism,maybe to play it like I'm sure,
if computers are gone, a CD isuseless.

(48:39):
A sharp needle, yeah, and anamplification system it is cool
that the music is like onimprinted in there, yeah,
physically as opposed to justbeing encoded in zeros and ones
and then imprinted.
So like I think for mepersonally that's my attraction
to vinyl is that I feel like Iown the music sort of more

(49:02):
tangibly in that way.
Yeah, and it's and it's moreinfinitely reconstructable.
It's a record in more ways thanone yeah.
There you go.
Perfect.
I like the way that sounds.
That's actually very quippy andvery good.

Andrew (49:15):
Thank you.

Will (49:17):
I just love that Perfect Trademark.
Copyright Everything.
TMTMSCCCC.

Andrew (49:22):
Yep.

Will (49:23):
And I hope.
What do you think Apple is goingto sue us for?
Like me talking about that?
No, they're not.
No, they'll probably be gladthat I'm bringing this relic out
.
Yeah, they really need somemoney yeah.
I think, I always think.
Tim Cook's doing some bad workfor them, yeah.
I come back to this thing allthe time because as important as
that Walkman was down there forfor so many people that he did

(49:44):
owe this just at a differenttime.

Andrew (49:46):
Yeah, it's huge this.
I can't believe they inventedthis thing.

Will (49:48):
And now it didn't last a great long deal.
No, but this became a phonepretty quick.
It was the number one sellingitem for Apple for a decade.
Oh guys, you got to listen, eveneven the click.
How satisfying.
I mean like, and obviously Appleknown for very well built and
engineered products.

(50:09):
Yeah.
Like the software might be alittle limiting if you wanted to
criticize it, but but and thiswas back in the day before
streaming, so like DRM was athing and I mean the iPod.
Yeah, a win, it went, it's allright.
It's, we could criticize it.
There's no point because it's alegendary piece of equipment.
Yeah, and I've had so manyexperiences with this actual

(50:29):
iPad or something, ipad, ipod,listening to it and just like,
feeling like I have all my musicwith me and I could hear
anything I need at any momentand be taken out of the world
and put into my music in thislittle device that stays charged
all day, runs fine, never hadany issues with it and it still
works.
I don't have it.
I don't have it charged, but Iplug it in.

(50:52):
It still works.
You never bought a zoom.
I didn't buy a zoom, but you did, did you?
I had a friend who did Okay,close enough, it's in Guardians
now.
Yeah.
So, I don't care, I don't care.
If you buy a zoom, just don'tkeep buying that.
Are the our zoos?
Are zoos valuable on eBay?
They can't be.

(51:12):
There's no way, I think.
Even if they were valuable, Ithink people would intentionally
value them.
When my buddy who bought a zoombought one, yeah, they were like
touting it left and right, noone.
It's too embarrassing.
No one caught on.
It's funny because like, yeah,microsoft with their zoom like
tried as hard as they could tolike out Apple, apple, and you

(51:35):
can't.
You got to play a differentgame.
It was weird, yeah, it was likea replica, just less functional
, less usable and like, lesslikable, less easy, maybe.
I bet with a zoom that you canjust drop the files under the
stupid thing.
Microsoft yeah, less, easy.

Andrew (51:52):
I don't know.

Will (51:53):
Actually I like, I like that slogan.
Sometimes it's more easy.
Well, the zoom.
You can probably just drag anddrop files onto it Right and not
have to use iTunes.
You can use it.
I don't have it Sound encoder.
Did I have it sent softwareyeah.
My God, oh, anyway, like, eventhough it's not.
Those are iPods and zoos are ofthe same format, but there's

(52:14):
there's differences there.
Right, they're different.
Oh, they were very differentdevices.
Yeah, very different devices,like there's so much thought and
engineering goes into it or not.
And then whether the productsucceeds as a matter of
commercial, like commercialism,or or how well it does in the
market, and I guess that'llgenerally be determined by do
people enjoy?

(52:34):
Is it easy for people?
Yeah, is it easy?
Less touches.
Less having to screw around withcrap, more listening to music.
That was the main thing, andphones at that time and before
didn't do anything.
You couldn't.
You could play like a tune.

Andrew (52:52):
A ring tone.
You could buy a ring tone, yeah.

Will (52:54):
Okay.
Yeah, play it as a tune Musicand it would sound like it was
coming out of like a like a tinylittle button.
Speaker.
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I rememberMinokia with espionage.
That was my only music.
Yeah For a ring tone and formusic.
It actually, if you think aboutit.
It is quite recent, this, thisnew era of being, but it's.
It's so good having everythingstreaming instantly to anywhere

(53:16):
you want and any device you want, anywhere on your body or
person.
Probably Having that is soamazing that it feels like we've
had it forever.
I dreamed about that, like whenI first was like, oh, this could
be a thing.
I remember going to Brookstone,brookstone, yeah, and they had
a Bluetooth speaker and it waslike the size of a like chair,

(53:40):
yeah, but it could stream basedon wire, it could stream on
wireless which I didn't knowBluetooth and wireless with the
same at the same time.
At that time, but I was likewhy is this not everywhere?
And then, a year later, everyeveryone in the brother had a
Bluetooth speaker.
Bluetooth speaker, yeah, yeah,I'd say the Bluetooth speaker is
up there with.
It's not as game changing asthis, but I mean.

(54:01):
Bluetooth communication.
Yes, wireless communication isthe game changer.

Andrew (54:06):
That's what made all this possible.
Only it worked all the time.

Will (54:10):
I mean I've got more hits than I got misses, you know.
Yeah, generally yeah.
And then the other issue ofBluetooth is the compression.
It's gotten better.
New codecs have allowed for Imean quite high.
New codecs have made it sostreaming sounds indiscernible
from a lot of physical media.
Yeah, I'd say you get prettyhigh MP3 quality of through.
Bluetooth yeah.
And things like Google Playhave a setting for high and low

(54:33):
quality too, so you can manageit.
Yeah, sounds like it's pro tip.
Go into your streaming servicesand see if there's options for
sound quality.
The only reason they give youthose options is to save data.
Right, honestly you're nottaking a ton of data streaming
music.
And if you're on home Wi-Fi itis much better.
Just go with the higher qualityyeah.
Always higher quality.

(54:53):
You will even through likemediocre headphones.
You should be able to notice asmall difference.
But it's free.
Free difference Sounds obvious.
Pro tip.
Pro tip.
We're going to have a wholeepisode of pro tips.
Come on right now.
I'm just kidding, I'll have alittle better.
The pro tip episode, where wejust go back and forth and go
like here's a tip.

Andrew (55:09):
Yeah.

Will (55:10):
That might be a group episode.
Yeah, yeah.
Pros on pros.
Here's a tip Go back in time andbuy one of these things and
enjoy it at the time, because,like you said, this made me
realize that soon I don't thinkI realized it at the time, but
maybe I should have that theexistence of this meant that
today was coming.

Andrew (55:30):
Yeah.

Will (55:31):
That this would no longer be necessary, but but that like
it was possible to haveeverything you want at your
fingertips.
Yeah.
And on that too not a pro tip,but another tip yeah, go to
Goodwill's or vintage stores,buy all iPods, see what's on

(55:53):
those things.
Oh interesting, it's fun to buyused ones.
Yeah, and see what Take throughthe catalog of someone else,
because I remember the bad Iwill say the bad thing about
iPods, even at the time andespecially in retrospect, was
iTunes interface.
Yeah, sinking was weird.
They do not sync unless youplug them in, and the software

(56:14):
is running Right.
Exactly, there was like an orderto things and then like if you
synced off the device, itwouldn't remove the song Nope.
Whatever is in there is in thereUntil it was full and it starts
to replace.
Yeah, and then if you delete itout of your library, you plug
your iPod in.
It would just delete the songsoff your iPod.

Andrew (56:30):
Yeah.

Will (56:33):
Mine numbingly stupid Like .
It's good and bad.
But they didn't have.
They didn't.
This was before we had thestandard.
This was them trying to findwhat people wanted.
They just got it a little bitwrong.
Like that's not exactly, andthey were running regular hard
drives.
So from that perspective itdoes make some sense If it were

(56:53):
an SSD and it were a quickupdate, correct?
There's a technical aspect to it.
There's also and then there wasalso the DR.
Yeah, do they run SSDs now oniPods?
They don't like iPods.
Are they pun?
Yeah, they've stopped iPods awhile ago.
I thought they might make alittle one still.
No, they don't make iPods.
That one's got to be an SSDyeah.

(57:15):
No one's putting spinning thisdrives anywhere Unless you
specifically need tons and tonsof storage.
That would just be funny ifthere's some factory that's
making iPod SSD Like iPod harddrives.
Did they ever yeah?
Just hard drives yeah.
With the moving parts?
That would be hilarious.
I wonder.
I can't remember if they everswitched from spinning this

(57:37):
drives to SSDs.
The clips had SSDs, but thosewere almost like like Express
cards.
Right.
They weren't Basically a tinylittle SSD card with like a
player built around it.
I mean, I never opened one up,but it probably was just a SD

(57:59):
card port and they probablybought some cheap SSDs To me,
the mini.
Not the mini, but the clip oneis less of a innovation and more
of a marketing decision.

Andrew (58:08):
Oh yeah, more of a business decision Big time.

Will (58:10):
They can make a lot of money on the iPod brand by
making something that's verycheap to manufacture but looks
very expensive.
Once they released those I waslike oh, this is done.
Yeah, they're like trying toyeah, it's like.
Yeah, the same thing happened.
I don't know why I mentionedthis, but, like mini-couper,
there used to be one mini-couperand then they had 17 different,
all the same card, differentbodies, like four doors, two

(58:31):
doors, five doors, nine doors.
You see them on the street andyou're like wait a second.
Yeah, which one is that?

Andrew (58:35):
It's a mini, but I don't know which one it is Because no
one yeah it started to get likethat.

Will (58:39):
It's Hilarious.
He said that because I thisliterally just happened to me
Like I was walking down Westernand saw a mini and I was like
that's not a regular mini, it'snot an S, it's not the like SCV
one they made.
Yeah, it's like it was rightbetween.

Andrew (58:56):
And I could not tell the clubman.

Will (58:58):
Probably the long boy it was something I did not know
about.
Yeah.
They have models where it's likeno one.
There's one that looks like abaseball cap.
It's a two-seater convertible,so it's the most ineffective use
of space Like the mini-coupernot bad for a storage.
Got a big trunk.
Just make a bug.
Exactly.
They took the truck out, foldedthe roof into the truck, took

(59:20):
out two of the seats andupcharged it.
No one bought it, heymini-couper.
Just ask VW if you can make abug or remake a thing.
Yeah.
They're not doing it.
I'd love to see some things inthe room.
Yeah, it's funny how you couldtell with the iPod that it
started getting to the end times, when they had 19 different
versions of this thing.

(59:41):
Yeah, what do you say aboutphones nowadays?
Right?
Yeah, I mean, are we?
reaching the end of the phones,are we moving to glasses?
No, no.
Not yet.
No, I hope not.
Yeah, one day, one day, yeah,one day, we'll have iPod glasses
.
No, I never Ray-Ban brandediPods in our years In the

(01:00:03):
interest of weight savings onthe On something you put on your
face.
you're never going to get decentaudio out of those things.
No, they do have glasses.
I guess maybe if you put IEMson them somehow.
But Ray-Ban has glasses that dothat.
Oh, they have audio right.
Is it good audio?
It can't be.
It's like outside of your earit comes out of the.
I do want to buy a pair and trythem, so maybe I'll do that for
fun yeah they have cameras too.

(01:00:26):
Yeah, that's the cool part.
That's creepy.
They're very incognito too,because you can't really tell
that they're.
Oh yeah, daylight looks justlike Ray-Ban's Regular explorers
.
Yeah, man, I love 4-Man I lovethe way that I have all these oh
, you have all these things thatyou show.
I have other stuff that Ididn't pull out for this episode
, but I love the.

(01:00:47):
I love For me it's like theexperience of using it, but also
the aesthetics of it, right?
Yeah, I mean it comes into it.
Like I said, it's great to havea physical representation of
your media, along with thedigital and the audio, no doubt,
and I think, whatever formatyou go with, you're going to
find online just people, right,right, saying one thing's better

(01:01:11):
than another thing.
What I'm saying is no thing'sreally better than any other
thing, except that cassettesyeah, they're all quite
different, except that cassettesExcept cassettes Are the worst.
Yeah and flexi discs do soundlike crap.
No, I'm honestly kidding aboutthe cassettes.
I mean, both of those are Like,they're not the worst.
They're good because they giveaccess to people who otherwise
wouldn't have it.
They're not great, but no, weknow.
They don't sound as good unlessit's raw black metal, but about

(01:01:31):
10 people out of a million arelistening to that.
Just burn a CD, yeah With what.

Andrew (01:01:35):
A CD burner.

Will (01:01:36):
Where do you get one of those?
I'm sure you can find one in thelibrary.
You might have to find one onlaptop.
Yeah, libraries have oldcomputers.
Yeah, we have them in there.
No, hot tip, hot tip.
You can buy a CD, an externalCD burner, for like 10 bucks on
Amazon.
Sounds obvious.
Per tip, yep, per tip, buy aseparate CD player.
You have to for some productsnow you do.

(01:01:56):
Yeah.
Oh, that's also that problem.
I have an old stereo from the80s or 90s that won't play
certain CDs.
It's just that's weird.
Codecs just don't work, don'tknow.
I think once they Some CDs thatmight be written dual layer so
you can fit more on them Likedual layer.
Oh yeah, that's new tech.
It won't read.
CDRs or DVDs.

(01:02:16):
Yeah, won't play DVDs, but itdefinitely won't.
It won't read CDRs, which isweird.
Certain CDRs back in the day hadweird codecs.
That's the thing.
So if you re-burned it on adifferent CD, you're probably, I
think nowadays probably solid.
Yeah, Back in the early timesof I mean that was like the
first couple of years, yeah,like after that it was pretty

(01:02:36):
much figured out.
I remember I had problems withthings playing and yeah you
would when you made CDs.
You could just put the MP3s on aCD right.
That won't play unless you.
I mean Unless your stereosupports MP3.
I had Starcraft on a CDR, yeah,and I could play the video game
on certain computers and otherones that just would not execute
.
Yeah, that may have been an EXEissue.

(01:03:00):
I do remember this issue,because vinyl you never have an
issue unless the thing isdamaged.
Right, it's literally a needlehitting you.
Just get your speed right, yeah,but with CDs like yeah, codec
issues, yeah, and the scratchingon the disc too can be an issue
that's generally used.
But yeah, I just I rememberhaving those moments with CDs

(01:03:21):
like why doesn't this work?
Which?
That happened a lot.
Yeah, it doesn't happen anymore.
No, I think we're past that time, but digital, I think, went
through that era as well.

Andrew (01:03:30):
Yeah.

Will (01:03:30):
Like why doesn't this work ?
But I think everything justsort of works now, right.

Andrew (01:03:35):
So I mean like that's.

Will (01:03:35):
That's that's format stuff for us Like we.
What we went through maybe 1%of all the stuff you could find.
Yeah, there's so much out there,yeah, and it's going to keep
changing.
I think so, which is exciting.
You just have to be prepped forit, right?
So, like, future-proof, yoursetups Understand enough about
formats to know, like is this,can I have this for a while and

(01:03:57):
be okay, and then be familiarwith the different sounds?
That's it.
That's all you.
Once you know that you'realready ahead of the game, yeah,
and just try to appreciate youknow some stuff that might be on
things you're not familiar withor might not quite understand.
I mean, we don't know everythingabout it.
I'm sure most people don't.
So, Solid.
Just have fun.
We will be back with you at thenext episode.

(01:04:18):
Thank you again for watching.
We're going to do more of thesekind of deep dives into the
different kind of interestingtopics, but we will see you guys
around.
Yeah, like and subscribe.
Yeah, Do that Like and subscribe.
Please Smash it.
Our lives depend on it.
We're going to have to sell allof our records if they don't do
that.
Yeah, I don't want to do that.
Yeah, all right, we'll catch youguys later.