January 21, 2024 • 55 mins
Get ready to embark on a sonic exploration with our guest Jenna Chapman, an astute dj, seasoned radio personality, and lifelong jazz enthusiast. You'll discover how evolving trends are breathing fresh life into the jazz arena, redefining its essence and broadening its audience. We discuss the interplay of diverse musical styles, such as hip hop, funk, and R&B, blending with jazz to create a unique soundscape, replete with polyrhythmic beats and atmospheric melodies.
As we traverse the landscapes of Chicago and London, we delve into the burgeoning jazz scenes thriving there. We shine a spotlight on International Anthem Recording Co., a Chicago-based label fostering a community of innovative musicians and the London-based nonprofit program Tomorrow's Warriors, nurturing the future of jazz. You'll hear about Mercury Prize-winner Nubia Garcia, the proactive social messaging in Shabaka Hutchings' projects, and how these new jazz scenes champion gender and social inclusivity.
As we wrap up our journey, we applaud the power of collaboration, exemplified by jazz giants like Kamasi Washington, who are bringing jazz to the mainstream. We also grapple with the conundrum of labeling this avant-garde wave of jazz, tossing around names like Universal Jazz, Transatlantic Jazz, Trip-Hop, and After-Jazz. So, plug in your headphones and immerse yourself in this enlightening conversation as we traverse the dynamic universe of jazz.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Will (00:20):
Welcome to SoundSagas.
We're back with another guestepisode featuring Jenna Chapman,
DJ Polymath super cool person,and Andrew's here too, hey guys.
Andrew (00:34):
I'm here too, just an accessory, it's fun.
Jenna (00:37):
Don't worry about it, we actually all know each other.
Will (00:39):
Yeah, I don't mean to belittle you, so it's kind of
weird to introduce each otherright.
Andrew (00:42):
It's like kind of like knowing each other a little bit.
But yeah, Jenna DJs, of course,is on the radio and we actually
went to school together.
Jenna (00:53):
Yes, the deepest of cuts.
Will (00:54):
Yeah, so like it goes back , yeah.
Andrew (00:58):
But obviously a lover of music like deep down you
wouldn't point being, youwouldn't operate in all these
spaces like DJing and stuff ifyou didn't love music.
Jenna (01:07):
It's true.
Yeah, you know, all thepragmatism of your youth comes
back at you, and maybe it's notyour day job, but you find ways
to integrate it into your life,and music has truly been a part
of my entire life.
Nice, nice.
Will (01:20):
Yeah, I mean for all of us .
But today, what do you want totalk about with us?
Jenna (01:26):
Well, I would love to talk about it seems silly to say
out loud I love jazz and I wantto talk about a pattern I've
been noticing in local jazz andjazz worldwide, frankly.
But there's a cool thinghappening and I don't know what
to call it, so I would love totalk to you about it and see if
we can like come up with someideas or something.
(01:48):
But I can also just talk alittle bit about my experience
with jazz in the Chicago areabeing kind of a crucible for
jazz music throughout history,but especially now, and how I
came to be someone who consumesa large variety and quantity Of
jazz in various formats Cool andjust to clarify do you mean
(02:11):
like we were coming up with agenre name, kind of like the
shoe gaze phenomenon?
It's something I've beenthinking about because I've done
some digging on articles to seeif there's already a name for
this phenomenon that I've beennoticing and I haven't found one
yet.
That's really called it out.
There's been things that not toget too ahead of ourselves here,
(02:33):
but you know, there areinfluences of bringing hip hop
back into jazz, there'sAfrofuturist elements, and they
all call out the elements, butthere's not a name for the
movement or anything that I'veseen.
I don't think anyone's gone sofar as to call it a movement and
I struggle with that a littlebit because I see a very clear,
(02:53):
defined pattern and categoryhere without a name.
So if y'all are thinking ofstuff while we're talking, or if
y'all are listening and come upwith some cool ideas, let us
know, because I would love tohave a label to slap on this
other than like a specificrecord label.
Will (03:11):
I like that.
It's like a cool, achievable,definable goal amidst the
conversation, but also gettingthe comments.
Andrew (03:19):
And it's something I've been thinking about for a while
and I can't quite put my fingeron it, so maybe articulating it
and this conversation will helpA prior episode you had
mentioned to me, like when I hadstarted defining sort of
category based shapes aroundsounds and heavy music like
heavy metal, you were like well,that's very music journalist of
you.
(03:40):
Yeah, there is an element ofthat too, that way of thinking.
But like broader stroke, Ithink what you're saying too is
like you sense like somethingdifferent sounding coming out
and there's like not really away to like quickly articulate
what that is.
Jenna (03:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Well, this is the perfectformat for particularly let's
get into it.
Tell me more.
Will (04:03):
Great Well, where do we?
Jenna (04:03):
want to start.
Will (04:06):
At the beginning, at the beginning, okay.
Jenna (04:08):
When I was a wee lass back in the day.
No, actually, though, I guessit would probably help to talk a
little bit about my personalexperience with this.
Yeah, yeah, I grew up in thesuburbs of Chicago, which is,
you know, pretty homogenous, asit were, but we were always on
the metro train line fromChicago and my parents.
(04:32):
We were a family that grew upwith the radio on in the house
all the time.
Wdcb is the local jazz stationin Chicago.
It was always on at my house.
And yeah, honestly great station.
It's an absolute legacy and myfolks were always really good at
integrating their children intoadult activities, one of which
(04:54):
is sitting down and shutting upduring a jazz concert.
And they actually found youknow that we go to Ravina and
stuff like that but they found acouple of clubs in Chicago that
actually would permit kids.
Will (05:07):
Right.
Jenna (05:08):
And one of those.
This is a deep cut but it wasBlues and Jazz and Blue.
You know Blues, chicago likeit's BLUVS, like the
abbreviation, it's a touristtrap kind of.
Will (05:18):
Blues Club near downtown.
Jenna (05:19):
Yeah, I'm not familiar with it, yeah, so so they had
this, this big kind of touristtrappy club, but it was a good
Blues Club.
They had a store it was justcalled Blue Chicago Store but in
the basement they would do allages shows and it was all the
same big names that would comethrough for literally a dozen
people in folding metal chairsInteresting.
(05:41):
I remember being 12 and goingdown to the basement of this
place on, like Erie or somethingNice, and there was a heart
battle.
Like two harmonica playersbrought out a suitcase full of
harmonicas and they did like afull Blues set with Dually
Harmonicas.
Andrew (05:55):
That's dope, that your parents did that like expose you
to that I have a similar like.
Growing up, my parents took meout to this French Creole
restaurant that always had livejazz.
Nice, it was, it was more oflike that, like more upscale
kind of feely kind ofenvironment Deaster-esque, but
then they would take afterdinner they take me out to this
bar and my mom would talk to thebouncer and be like Somehow
(06:16):
somehow.
I'm 15 and I can drink a dietCoke or a Coke at the bar and
sit and like no one saysanything and they have live
music, you know, like a fourpiece or five piece jazz band.
Will (06:25):
Yeah.
Andrew (06:27):
And like I gotta tell you that got me into other music
.
Jenna (06:29):
I'm saying like bringing kids to live music is so
important and I did pianolessons when I was really little
and then when you know thattime comes in elementary school
where they're like picking aninstrument, and I don't know if
they did that for y'all, but itwas like fifth grade, sixth
grade, for us Came a littlelater for me, yeah.
So we had a younger musicprogram and they only let people
(06:51):
who had piano experience dopercussion and so I was the only
girl who wanted to dopercussion.
So I was like, yeah, maybe adrummer, and then go into these
jazz shows with my folks andlike seeing the drummers and how
intense all of that was and thedrum solos and jazz sets are
wild.
Andrew (07:08):
They're just off chain all the time.
Will (07:10):
Yeah.
Andrew (07:11):
It's like part of the reason why I gravitated so
quickly to heavy metal from jazzis not necessarily like the
aesthetic carryovers, but likethe flipping solos man.
Oh yeah, the improvisational,all of it, totally yeah.
Jenna (07:25):
And being able to come up with that off the cuff is still
something I do not have ahandle on.
I took drum set lessons forthree years and never got it
Anyway, digression yeah.
I grew up listening to a lot ofjazz and knowing who these
artists were, because my dad hasalways been a huge music person
.
I very much get that from himand he would always talk to me
about who we were listening to.
And you know, we'd be listeningto Led Zeppelin and he'd be
(07:47):
like all right now you have tomemorize it's.
It's um John Paul Jones andRobert Plans and John Bonham,
you know so he justunderstanding the names,
concepts.
Will (07:56):
Yeah, yeah, just drilling on that.
Jenna (07:58):
And so we would go to these clubs.
And then, as I got older, I hada really tight knit group of
friends probably my juniorsenior year of high school who
were all deeply embedded in themusic program.
So I was in two school choirsand two church choirs and band
(08:18):
and did my study hall in themusic department office and you
know it was like very in thatland and, for whatever reason,
the the kids that were twogrades younger than me were
deeply also embedded in music,and so I ended up befriending a
couple of them, one of whom is,uh, an old friend of mine who
(08:38):
now performs different kinds ofmusic in the city.
So if you ever heard DPCD, alQuads, an amazing artist, also
keyboardist for the band Iverson, if you've ever heard of them,
uh, but he used to be big intojazz, okay, and so he got
together with some other kids inthe jazz program, went to this
there's like a jazz incubatorfor high school kids in the city
(09:00):
like, did all this stuff endedup going to a program out in
Stockton, california?
That's like a college for jazzpeople at one point.
Andrew (09:08):
Super, super deep on it.
Jenna (09:10):
And, um, they played Taste of Chicago on one of the
opening stages, just doing alljazz stuff, and that got me
going to a lot more jazz showswhen I was in my teen years
because I would go to his showsand be like this is so cool and
he would like play all thisdifferent stuff and I, I just
started hearing the pieces andrecognizing what they were.
(09:30):
It just very much followed mefrom childhood through adulthood
to know what these referencepoints were, and I don't think
I've ever stopped listening tojazz.
There's probably been a pointin time at which I wasn't
consuming the new stuff as much.
And, honestly, a lot of new jazzbefore, and I don't want to
(09:53):
draw any hard lines in the sandhere.
But a lot of what people see ascontemporary jazz is
reiterations of traditional jazz, like calling back to hardbop,
calling back to Coltrane, youknow, like Davis, all the greats
they're not necessarilychanging the format.
Andrew (10:11):
You know what I mean.
Jenna (10:13):
And a lot of the stuff I feel like I heard that was still
new growing up was justreiterations of traditional
format jazz, which is not a badthing.
Seeing that live is fantastic.
Will (10:24):
But I think that holds true to just how people practice
and perform music too.
Andrew (10:30):
Yeah, no one shits on Stoner Doom for sending like
Black Sabbath.
Yeah, I mean like it is likeBlack Sabbath, just heavier or
newer, and but people love it,like it's so popular, right,
right, yeah, like you find theformat you stick with it and you
get it.
Jenna (10:44):
But what has captured my attention, what I want to bring
to this conversation is, I wantto say, 21st century for sure.
Probably late 2000s, early2010s is when I've really
noticed this stuff starting tocome through, but like the
format is changing and that'swhat's really interesting.
Will (11:05):
Yeah, I mean to circle back a little bit like huge
proponent of all ages shows, Imean yes.
I don't know if you would havegotten there without all that
Like I was always amazed andlike impressed when I could go
to a show when I was under 18.
Jenna (11:20):
Yeah.
Will (11:21):
Like it was a harder thing to do than it should be.
Jenna (11:23):
Yeah, and it still is I mean yeah.
Andrew (11:26):
I mean at House of Blues .
Recently was all ages.
That's good, you hear kids inthe crowd.
Will (11:30):
I do see way more of it than when I was in high school.
Jenna (11:32):
And it tends to be more prominent in the suburbs,
obviously just because youexpect more families and stuff.
But yeah, even.
Will (11:40):
They didn't usually have an interest in it.
Yeah Right, which is alwaysbeen an issue.
Jenna (11:44):
And in the city you know small clubs.
It's like you were saying, youknow I could get in with my
parents sometimes, right, right,I wonder how much you do that
now.
Andrew (11:50):
This is this would have been back in the 90s, yeah.
Early 2000s, Early 2000s.
But yeah, depending on who youknow.
And yeah, you can get your 16year old if he sits in the
corner and is quiet or somethingyeah.
You know, but right Access at ayoung age is so critical.
So anytime people kind of poopoo all ages shows, I'm always
(12:11):
like I get you but reallyunderstand like it's important
for kids to see music yeah.
Will (12:18):
And you have all this context now for why you're like,
oh, this is different than allthis other stuff I got to see.
Jenna (12:22):
Yeah, yeah, and I'll say specifically for jazz in the
city jazz showcase is a greatone about allowing all ages
shows there in South Loop.
That was one we got to go towhen I was younger, and they
have a Sunday matinee at four.
Will (12:35):
So if it's like if you ever want to go see jazz and
you're like I don't want to beout till 10pm.
Jenna (12:40):
They're a great one for that.
They do have a bar, so adultsdon't worry.
Andrew (12:44):
But yeah it is.
Jenna (12:46):
it's a great space and I often see kids in there and it's
really cool to see them showingjazz.
Andrew (12:51):
How would you describe like, what's like the what's
like the quick synopsis?
I guess on the format changeyou were talking about, like
yeah, absolutely so.
Jenna (13:01):
kind of the thesis statement in my mind is a
reincorporation.
So jazz is the OG, right, Imean blues is really the OG, but
jazz is kind of for a lot ofAmerican music, a format that
launched many, many others.
Andrew (13:18):
Yeah.
Jenna (13:19):
So what I'm seeing is a reincorporation of subsequent
music styles like hip hop funk,r&b probably the biggest ones, a
little Motown maybe, but reallymore the kind that have like
long jam capability.
Will (13:38):
But you would call it a fusion, you would call it more
of like a segment.
Jenna (13:42):
So think about it, as this is the next generation
right.
This is folks who, on theoldest, are maybe 10 years older
than us, like 40s, like Ihaven't seen anybody over 50
doing this kind of music.
Necessarily People who grew uplistening to hip hop, people who
grew up jamming to you knowearth, wind and fire and
(14:06):
Parliament, funkadelic and allthat stuff on the older side,
and maybe that was theirparents' music, but definitely
80s, 90s hip hop and bringingthat aesthetic back to jazz,
that is, with a little outsidecurve of some just free
improvisational classical andreturn to deeply roots elements
(14:32):
like gospel and traditionalmusic.
Andrew (14:35):
Is this like post-jazz?
Jenna (14:37):
It might be post-jazz, honestly.
Will (14:39):
I would say to type that into Google, but I really want
to.
Post-anything that pisses meoff, not gonna lie.
Jenna (14:45):
We can win to it down, that's a good starting point.
But I think the biggestinfluence the biggest influence
is hip hop for sure.
And I think that is kind ofencapsulated in the artist who I
see as a focal point for a lotof this innovation, makaya
McRaven, chicago drummer Denveris reductive.
He actually refers to himselfas a beat scientist and while
(15:08):
that might sound pretentious inany other context, in the
context of the music he's doing,it absolutely makes sense
because he's rearrangingtraditional jazz elements with a
very percussion, heavy focusand bringing in jazz.
When you think of, traditionaljazz has a very specific beat
pattern.
Right, it's like the like.
(15:30):
There's like a bunch ofdifferent ones, but they're all
very swung or they're very likelinear.
Right, this is triples, this istime signature changes, this is
the overlay of time structures.
That hip hop has a lot of timewhere you have a big driving
down beat but then you have thelike a bunch of.
Is he doing?
Andrew (15:48):
like polyrhythmic stuff.
There's some polyrhythmic stuff, for sure, okay.
Jenna (15:51):
so it's like really like scientifically, yeah, yeah like
he is honing in on exactly whatbeat he wants, and sometimes
even just the juxtaposition oftraditional jazz elements with a
more two-four heavy hip hopbeat, as opposed to a swung jazz
beat, flips the scriptsonically on what's happening.
Will (16:11):
And this is the main element you were talking about,
where it's a format change.
Jenna (16:15):
Yeah, it really feels like that.
So you have yeah, percussion iskind of the foundation of this.
There's also an element ofallericism in the melody, part
of it.
So I feel like Tragas is youhave a hook that is repeated and
then you have animprovisational piece.
Okay, there's a lot morethrough composition and this
(16:37):
stuff.
So you're seeing melodies andmotifs that are drawn out
through an entire piece, ratherthan you know, here's this
little riff, here's a break forimprov, here's the little riff.
Again, you know, I don't wantto say there isn't an
improvisation, there's a ton ofimprovisation, but there's a
sort of ambient or atmosphericquality of these melodies.
(16:57):
There's a lot more harmoniesthere's a lot more layer and if
you took the beat away it wouldalmost be sonically slow or
actual ambient.
Yeah, I'm hating it the moreyou say it, but it's also so
true.
Andrew (17:11):
With the question what do we call this?
Yeah, unfortunately theatmosphere element is the nail
in a coffin.
Will (17:18):
Yeah.
So maybe we'll like think on it, do a top five at the end, but
having not heard any of this, orat least not knowing that I've
heard any of this.
Andrew (17:26):
this all sounds very, very like compelling yeah.
Jenna (17:29):
Well, and I'll say, there are elements of this in more
accessible music.
So I'm talking about Makaya, asort of related piece that is
much probably more prominentwould be the work that Kamasi
Washington has done, if you'refamiliar with him.
The LA scene of whatever thismovement is.
Whatever this type of music is,is much more indirect contact
(17:52):
with hip hop music so like.
Kamasi has worked with KendrickLamar with.
Tarris Martin.
There's a lot more immediatecrossover Right and in that
music you see a lot moreaccessible pop forward elements
that honestly, I had thisthought once and I can't get out
of my head and might sound dumb, but I see a lot of callbacks,
(18:14):
like Bert Backerach and thatlevel of like orchestral melodic
cinematic composition.
Will (18:20):
I don't think it's dumb.
Andrew (18:21):
He has influenced a lot of.
That's not dumb, that's that'syeah.
That makes me I'm having toconceptualize that.
That's really interesting yeah.
Jenna (18:28):
But so that is like very much the pop side of the coin
and that's not.
That's not meant to bederogatory at all.
It's like, if you want a one onone entry level to what jazz
has changed into being.
Kamasi is a great access pointfor that because he's
incorporating the Afrofuturistelements.
He's incorporating the cinematicmelodic scale of everything
(18:51):
through composition but he'salso more immediately calling
back to the hip hop stuff andhe's doing it in a way that
someone who is not a jazzconsumer can listen to and enjoy
immediately, rather than havingto learn the jazz vocabulary
which I feel like as much.
As my main focus here is theinternational anthem which I'll
(19:12):
get into in a little bit.
The London scene of thisShabaka Hutchings Sons of Kamet
Comet is coming.
That music is maybe not asaccessible to someone who
doesn't necessarily have thesame background, with jazz and
consuming that music becauseit's just like it's harder to
find.
Andrew (19:32):
Yeah, and you maybe a bit more esoteric.
Maybe a little more esoteric.
Jenna (19:36):
I mean you said you listen to some of the songs of
Kamet, right?
Andrew (19:38):
Yeah, I listen to some of the songs of Kamet and now
that we talk and this fits thebill, yeah, so how did you find
Sons of Kamet when you werefirst listening to?
it as someone who maybe doesn'tdo the best of jazz.
One of the people who have givenme two of my favorite
recommendations of albums in along time for a while and this
is back in the day when I wasdoing music journalism was the
(20:00):
ex-head editor of the websitethat I became head editor of.
So one of the people before meand he just recommended me Sons
of Kamet.
Like hey, check this.
He gave me no context.
He said I think you might likethis and I immediately was drawn
to, obviously like the jazzyelements of it, that I kind of
grew up with listening to jazzand that was being like my first
(20:21):
live music experience wasalways jazz and like immediately
hooked onto it because of that,but also because, like you said
, it has an expressive likeoverarching motif to it.
It has a more atmosphericquality and it has different
beats and melodies than I'm usedto in what you call trad jazz.
So I'm like I immediatelythought it was like.
I'm like this is cutting edge,like this is cool, this sounds
new, this is interesting andit's not.
(20:42):
It's not jazz.
Jenna (20:44):
Right, thank you, jazz, I'm like.
But it is in a way, it is jazz,but yeah, cutting edge was my
first thought too.
It feels so different that itneeds to be something else.
Andrew (20:53):
I think it does.
Jenna (20:54):
And I really hope it's not post jazz, but it might be.
Andrew (20:56):
I mean, I think that's, I think that's an easy way to
sell it or to say it, but it'swhen you say, post anything
you're, you're bringing in a lotof connotation to that.
Jenna (21:06):
You're bringing in a lot of like what do I think?
Andrew (21:09):
So I think generally you should hesitate away from the
post, the post prefix.
Jenna (21:14):
I mean, as we've learned from punk.
Yeah, yeah I mean, but it isrock yeah.
Andrew (21:20):
These things are things and like post metal and post
black metal, these things exist,even subcategories down.
But in general, I think when wewhen we want to explore it more
deeply, we would steer awayfrom post and try to be more
specific about what we meanwhich is exactly what we're
doing.
But yeah, sons of Comet will putlinks for everything you
mentioned.
Yeah, sons of Comet, definitely, like I just and we talked
(21:44):
about this with Chris butmovement like music of movement,
like not to say that jazz ortrad jazz inherently doesn't
have any body.
Jenna (21:53):
Oh, it absolutely does.
Andrew (21:55):
But this maybe gains, but definitely doesn't lose any
of that.
Jenna (21:59):
I think there is a more where maybe the previous
generations of jazz had to be,and actually that's not entirely
true.
I mean, you think about AtlasColtrane, you think about Miles
Davis.
Miles Davis was never shy aboutwhat his, his stanzas were, and
John Coltrane definitely hadsome huge spiritual and I'm just
(22:20):
calling out big names.
But like all the, all the guysfrom especially like the 60s,
you know, hardbop kind of postmovements there there were
absolutely social movementsinvolved in their music.
But whether it's because theseartists in this iteration have
more incorporation of vocals,maybe there's a more explicit
(22:44):
incorporation of gospel themesor themes that are more
obviously in some sort oftranscendentalist space.
Andrew (22:53):
Yeah.
Jenna (22:54):
It really does feel like the Black Power, the
Afrofuturism, the and in Londonthere's a specific aligning with
the culture of the West Indiesas well in that music, but it
all feels very much moreintentional and explicit this
time around.
Gotcha, you can, you can.
(23:15):
There are artists in this spacethat that is the ethos of their
work, so if you look at AngelBataweed, who is on the
International Anthem recordlabel, and I'll say
International Anthem is a greatstarting point for this kind of
music.
They're a Chicago based label.
They're covering a ton ofartists.
(23:36):
We've talked about MakayaMcRaven, all the people in
Makaya McRaven's band, junius,paul Marquise Hill all those
guys Desirene Douglas, brandyYounger, who's a harpist, and
that's another thing is theincorporation of not
traditionally jazz instrumentsinto this.
So harp, cello, all sorts ofdifferent stuff, but Angel
(23:57):
Bataweed, her whole thing is allof her music comes from a place
of empowering Black boys andcalling to that experience, that
pain, whatever it might be, andit's achingly beautiful because
of that.
Obviously not the best personto speak on all of the
experiences incorporated in that, but we can definitely post
(24:18):
some links in the website andblog post for writers who can
speak to that a bit more but.
Angel has the.
Actually, let me, let me pullup the name it's the Great Black
Music course.
I believe, yeah, she does aGreat Black Music course at Cook
County Juvenile TemporaryDetention Center through Old
(24:39):
Town School of Folk.
And she's looking to start herown music school and all of her
music is rooted in speaking tothat experience and her music
verges between that kind oftruly free, transcendental of
genre type of music and havingjazz elements, having classical
elements.
She's a clarinetist, she's asinger, she's a pianist.
(25:01):
Actually, as a sidebar, one ofthe best jazz shows I've ever
been to in the city I took myparents to Elastic Arts Center,
which is a second story randomloft conversion space in Logan
Square that does jazz andcontemporary music.
Will (25:18):
Yeah, a lot of experimental music too.
Jenna (25:19):
A lot of experimental music.
I took my parents to see AngelBataweed there and my mom and I
ended up dancing in the aisleand Angel was like running
around the whole space playingclarinet and just like throwing
her hands up.
And she came and hugged us andshe's like wearing full paint
and like garb and everything,and it was honestly felt
amazingly spiritual.
Andrew (25:38):
It was a beautiful musical experience, that's
awesome.
Jenna (25:41):
I feel like Chicago that city in the world to get some of
that.
Will (25:45):
I mean, I was going to say actually, like all of this
seems very alike happening rightnow, in this moment progressive
wild, but in like a coolartistic sense.
And it's bizarre to me, butalso cool that it's happening
like right down the block youknow, like I'm elastic arts is
my neighborhood.
Like all these shows that arehappening, like this is all
(26:06):
stuff happening right here.
Jenna (26:07):
Well, and that's probably a great space to talk about
where all of this is happeningand who's involved.
Cause I know I've dropped abunch of names and we're like,
who are all these people?
So really the crucibles of thisin my mind are Chicago and
London and a lot of the bands wetalk about Sunza, komet,
shibaka, that's all London.
Makaya, angel InternationalAnthem is all Chicago and we can
(26:29):
really kind of break it downinto where is this happening and
why and who was involved, andthen the pieces all kind of
strung together.
Andrew (26:37):
It's cool that you mentioned that the more like the
more activist side of it like,the more like the more social
messaging side of it is partinherently almost, I think of
what you're saying is like it'spart of the part of the music
itself.
Jenna (26:52):
Yes.
Andrew (26:52):
Yeah, you could not describe this new way of music
without describing thatmessaging or that lyricism.
Yeah, it's very much inherent,yeah, yeah, tied into itself.
I think it's important to saythat and taking the flavor of
that.
Will (27:02):
And that makes it now.
Jenna (27:03):
That makes it very natural and the flavor of that
in Chicago versus London is alsovery different, because those
experiences are so different andwe can talk a little bit about
why that might be for each ofthose spaces.
Really, the kind of crucibles ofthis scene I do see as being
Chicago and London and there'speople behind that, but there's
institutions behind that.
(27:24):
So in Chicago it's MakayaMcRaven.
I won't say any of them arelike the father of the local
scene, but it does feel likeMakaya is the uncle that gets
everyone over to his house forThanksgiving.
You know what?
Andrew (27:36):
I mean.
So, like these are the firststop, you would go, yeah, yeah.
Jenna (27:39):
And then you would branch off from there as a person.
But really I think the reasonfor that is because of the
record label InternationalAnthem.
So this is International AnthemRecording Co.
It is a Chicago label that wasfounded in 2012.
And they are Scotty McNeese andDave Allen, and they founded
(28:00):
this label, I think, just tobring this kind of music
together.
Scotty, I think, is someone whostarted his career as
programming music forrestaurants.
Like you work for HogsoltHospitality.
Will (28:16):
It's so strange, right.
Jenna (28:18):
Yeah, but if you think about that kind of music, the
sort of acid house informed kindof jazz Elevated music.
Yeah, OK, don't bring that intothe space.
Will (28:28):
I'm not trying to bring it down.
Wow, I mean, that's thementality it's working from.
Jenna (28:35):
You want to seem innovative, but you also want to
have accessible instrumental.
Will (28:40):
I mean as someone who listens to the SimCity 3000
unlimited soundtrack for real.
Jenna (28:45):
Respect actually.
Will (28:46):
That's solid.
Jenna (28:47):
But so someone who has that kind of mentality approach
to music, they formed.
Will (28:52):
That makes sense.
Jenna (28:53):
Yeah, they formed International Anthem, and so a
lot of the artists we've talkedabout so far Mackay McCraven,
angel Batawid, junius PaulDeseron, douglas Brandy Younger
I'm just going to be like aproper noun.
Souffle but all of thesecreators that have made music in
(29:15):
this post-jazz space, orwhatever we're calling it in the
US.
Almost all of them havereleased albums on International
Anthem.
And this is a Chicago label.
So not only is the music comingfrom Chicago in a very real
sense, but a vast majority ofthe creators either live in or
(29:35):
spend a lot of time in Chicago,and a good example of that would
be Brandy Younger, the Harpist,and Deseron Douglas, who is a
bassist.
They're New York basedOriginally.
Brandy's from New York but hasbeen spending more and more time
in Chicago because that iswhere the collaboration is In
fact.
Chicago Jazz Fest this pastLabor Day weekend, mackay
(29:56):
McCraven had a set, brandyYounger had a solo set not truly
solo, but a headlining set.
I should say, and so she spenther whole weekend here in
Chicago and she just comes outfor this stuff because this is
where all the people she playswith are and I think she might.
They made some mention in oneof the concert programs that she
may have actually relocated toChicago at this point.
(30:17):
She also plays at the bandReservoir, which also released
an International Anthem and Iwant to save bookmark for later
because they're representativeof the younger generation that
is coming through for this.
So, mackay, brandy, junius, allthese folks, angel, they're all
in their 30s and 40s.
There's a younger generation,that's 20s and 30s that are
(30:40):
coming through with this kind ofmusic as well.
Also some on InternationalAnthem, some on other labels
like Super Records, which I canget into.
Andrew (30:48):
But it's interesting, it's a multi-generational.
Jenna (30:50):
Multi-generational, but definitely on the younger side,
because we're not talking peoplein their 50s, 60s, 70s, for
example.
Will (30:56):
Well, and it's validating to say like oh, this is
something different and new,because all these people are
gathering here this label isforming, with similar
backgrounds, in their own musicinterests.
Jenna (31:09):
They grew up with hip hop , they grew up with all these
later iterations of music andare now bringing that back to
jazz.
So, very much a younger person'smovement, I would say, and
Makaya is probably the mostestablished of these, since he
moved to Chicago and reallystarted making his name here in
the late 2000s so 2007, beforeInternational Anthem started
(31:31):
worth flagging.
But I think he started pullingall these people into his sphere
compositionally andperformatively and he's also had
, I think, the mostinternational touring experience
.
And that's kind of where we canleapfrog over to London and
that side of the scene, becauseevery time Makaya goes overseas
he's working with ShibakaHutchings.
(31:51):
He's also Shibaka comes here,plays with Makaya.
They've collaborated.
Makaya has this album calledUniversal Beings, which is a
double LP.
Each side of the record isrecorded live in a different
place and on the London sideShibaka is on pretty much every
track with everyone from theLondon scene.
(32:12):
So the London scene is reallyinteresting because the root of
it to me seems to be thisnonprofit program called
Tomorrow's Warriors, which is ajazz education program in London
specifically for disadvantagedand underrepresented youth in
music.
Will (32:32):
I mean, we love public funds for music and arts.
Hell yeah.
Jenna (32:35):
And Tomorrow's Warriors alumni are kind of crazy.
So this program's been goingsince 91.
So, also speaking to theyounger side of things, because
the kinds of innovations thatare coming out of there are not
necessarily going to be informedby something from the 70s and
80s.
This is a relatively new ERRprogram, although 91s, as we
know, not as young as it used tobe.
Andrew (32:56):
Like 32 years ago, right , but?
Jenna (32:59):
in the scheme of jazz, that's fairly recent.
Andrew (33:01):
And a demonstrably successful run, because you
mentioned alumni right.
Jenna (33:04):
Exactly, shibaka Hutchings being one of them.
So the Can we step back?
Will (33:08):
one second too and say who are the main players in this
London scene.
Jenna (33:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I would say much in theway that Makaya is very much
spoke in the wheel or not spoke.
What's the thing?
The axle, the hub, the middlepart.
Will (33:24):
Yeah, I mean the hub.
Jenna (33:26):
Yeah, the hub in the wheel for the Chicago scene.
Shibaka is that for the Londonscene and he is, as we talked
about, the leader sons of KometAlso.
The comet is coming Also verymuch doing his own solo stuff.
Also has just collaborated withanyone and everyone.
Yeah, I was going to say sons ofKomet were involved in that,
hyper-involvedhyper-collaborative and an
(33:47):
alumnus of this program, forwhich he's still mentors, I
believe he is still involved inthe program.
So we have him.
We have a number of otherartists like oh man, I just had
that on top of my tongue.
Well, let me talk about NubiaGarcia then.
First, because Nubia Garcia.
Will (34:08):
A new character.
Centered the wheel.
Jenna (34:09):
Yes Well.
So she's really cool becauseshe's on the younger end of the
spectrum too, so she's in hermid-20s, I want to say.
But she's also a product ofthis Tomorrow's Warriors program
and she actually just won theMercury Prize, which is like the
British Grammys right.
Not Mercury is the British oneright.
Will (34:27):
I am fairly certain.
Jenna (34:28):
Because I always mix it up with the Canadian one.
Will (34:29):
Correction coming if I mess that up, the Canadian one
is ah, damn, the Canadian.
What the hell is the Canadianone?
I always forget the Canadianone.
Yeah, I need to.
Andrew (34:35):
I need to Because one of the artists I followed won.
Will (34:37):
There's an Australian one too that I'd never remember.
Andrew (34:39):
Yeah, stupid Americans.
Jenna (34:42):
But, so Nubia's debut album was called Source and it
came out I want to say 2020.
And immediately won the MercuryPrize for that year, and she's
a saxophone player and it's justalso awesome to talk about a
solo debuting jazz artist.
That's that young.
That's a female identifyingperson Like it's another thing I
appreciate about this movementis it's much more gender and
(35:04):
inclusive, I guess.
Andrew (35:05):
if you were to define this movement not just based on
its musicality, but of all thefactors that kind of make it up.
You're putting good pin marksin like Socially informed.
Jenna (35:15):
Exactly, yeah, expensive in who is participating in it?
Right, right, yeah, and it'sjust all coming from a good
place.
Will (35:23):
Like there's no bad scene or bad influence happening there
.
Jenna (35:27):
And one thing I've seen.
I was reading some articlesjust trying to get into what is
the sea of fidar You've beennamed right and one thing that
came up was hey, look at allthese jazz artists.
There aren't that many peoplein jazz education spaces that
fit into marginalized groupsanymore because they can't
afford it.
And so it was saying the likeacademic.
(35:48):
I'm going to sayacademicization.
Is that a thing?
It should be Right, it is yeah,the making academic of jazz has
boxed out so many people whowould normally be included in a
jazz scene and to some to theeffect of I think the stat they
actually pulled was 5% of peoplein college level.
Jazz programs, like majors, notextracurricular, are identified
(36:11):
as black.
Will (36:12):
Like that's crazy.
Jenna (36:14):
In a scene that is entirely rooted in black culture
like this.
Andrew (36:19):
This is like intersexuality demonstrated
Right right.
Jenna (36:21):
It's exactly that, and so it's cool to see in this Again
named TBD scene that we'redescribing here is very much
rooted in empowering thosevoices and not being exclusive
as far as education.
Will (36:35):
And in.
Jenna (36:35):
London very much the proactive version, where we are
going out of our way to educateyoung people to come up in this
music where there may have beenbarriers before.
And Nubia is a perfect exampleof that.
Her family's from the WestIndies, so this is where you get
some of the West Indiesinfluence as well.
You can hear it in, actually,the title track on her album,
(36:56):
where she brings in a reallyheavy level of dub into it which
is super.
It's a delicious groove.
I have to say that That'll be onthe playlist.
There's heavy dub influences.
Andrew (37:07):
She has one that has come out of London.
For Christ's sake, right, right, you got to.
Jenna (37:12):
And there's a Cumbia track in there too.
It is just it's delicious.
But so she is a great exampleof that program.
Come all Williams, I don'tthink comes from the program,
but he works with all of them.
He's a keyboardist and has alittle bit of that dub and hip
hop incorporation in there andhe's collaborated with Makaya
and he's done all of that.
Andrew (37:33):
Interesting part of this story is the extent to which
opening opportunities to musicalopportunities to people who
generally don't have them ortraditionally wouldn't have them
creates different kinds ofmusic.
Absolutely, yeah Like that's akey, like you can go into a slot
and turn and create more art,almost in a way, or at least
(37:55):
functionally allow it to happenand allow people to organize and
then do their thing.
But I think I think that's anextremely powerful statement To
describe this post jazz.
To describe it without thatwould be to missing something
key to the story.
Yeah, right, yeah, which I thinkis so cool about it and I think
(38:15):
that's.
I think it's cool that becauseI don't think music and music
and like identity have alwaysbeen close, absolutely Like.
But this is kind of areimagining of that.
Jenna (38:25):
It's more proactive.
Andrew (38:26):
Yeah.
Jenna (38:27):
I feel like, and and especially if you're into
Shabaka Hutchings projects thatspeaking of proactively we're
talking about Angel Bataweedearlier.
Shabaka, all of his stuff isvery much proactive and these
are the social messages I'mtrying to send.
Andrew (38:43):
It's not.
It's not implicit, it'sexplicit, it's absolutely
explicit.
Jenna (38:46):
I mean I'm trying to.
There's that one sons andcommit album that I think is the
Queen is a Reptile, no, not.
Andrew (38:52):
The Queen is a.
Jenna (38:53):
Reptile there's.
I'd have to look it up, but itactually says like Black Power
in the album title, like it'svery much in there.
Andrew (39:00):
It's the one after that, yeah.
Jenna (39:01):
Yeah, yeah, and Comet is coming to a little more on the
futurism side, but it's endemic,you know this is part of the
formula, the format change andchange.
Implying that that wasn't therebefore is wrong.
I just mean that the way it'sbeing put forth in the music is
different.
Andrew (39:20):
It's different than it ever has been.
I think so.
Jenna (39:22):
Yeah, in the jazz space, yeah, and capitalizing on, not
in a taking advantage way, butin conjunction with the Black
Power movement.
Lately, black Lives Matter and,I think, just all the social
change we've seen in the last 10, 15, 20 years it's the ways in
(39:42):
which it is being expressed havechanged.
Andrew (39:44):
Interesting.
Jenna (39:45):
And it's really cool to see and also powerful.
It's really intense.
Some of the Sun's a Comet stuff, Angel, Batuid stuff.
It's intense listening Part ofthe reason that I was drawn to.
Andrew (39:55):
that Sun's a Comet album too.
That your Queen is Reptile isthe first one I heard and I was
like wow, this is like seriouslyintense stuff.
I gravitate toward the heavymusic because of the intensity,
in part, just because it's sofor me, like it's so compelling
and it's so novel in that sense.
But I found the same level ofintensity with at least that
(40:17):
album in particular.
Jenna (40:18):
Well, and I think that's why having this be in the jazz
space is so interesting?
Because I'll say, based on mypersonal experience, I'm sure
based on your personalexperience too, like suburban
white people, jazz was easylistening.
Jazz was relaxed music.
Jazz was non-confrontationaland it was never intended to be.
Andrew (40:39):
Like Miles Davis, was never non-confrontational.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Jenna (40:44):
But that's how we took it , because by the time we grew up
, the norms had changed enoughthat that music had been rolled
into the general culturalnarrative and didn't have the
context that it came out inright?
Will (40:56):
Well, in some ways, and in some ways, it was curated to us
that way, sure.
Yeah absolutely when I went toschool.
The jazz station was notoriousfor being overfunded and
underutilized.
It was basically the same groupof rich white people who wanted
to play the same jazz standardsand stuff they wanted to hear.
Jenna (41:13):
Well, and now we're getting back to the academic
barriers to jazz programs too.
It's like white people havekind of stolen this music and
can't kept it, and it's likewhat is happening.
I mean that was activelyhappening with that station.
Will (41:28):
Everyone knew it and everyone was trying to fight it.
It was like you can't.
Yeah, we couldn't change it.
But that's what I like aboutthis too.
Hearing about this is so likeit feels, so intentional, so
passionate.
Jenna (41:40):
And it'll make you uncomfortable and it probably
should.
Will (41:43):
And it just has the authority that it should have.
Yeah, and that's what I likeabout it.
Jenna (41:48):
Well, and authority that no one needs to give it because
it's coming from this place of,like, pure expression.
Plus it fucking slaps.
Andrew (41:57):
Well, we mentioned cutting edge and like it really
like for something to cut anedge these days is not easy.
Jenna (42:03):
You know, in the literal sense of the term.
Andrew (42:05):
I'm not saying like cutting edge, like you know what
I'm saying?
The music itself is like yeah.
Will (42:09):
I mean, I think all these people are at the top of their
game exactly to be doing?
Jenna (42:14):
something innovative in a world where we're inundated
with novelty and innovation issomething and to have it have
that little emotional power andcoming from a place like Chicago
that has such a story andhistory of systemic injustice,
coming from a place like Londonthat also has that and
specifically coming from thatprogram the Tommars Warriors
program you can kind of seethese narratives being built and
(42:37):
these families being built, andso you know, we have kind of
the bridge there with Makaya andShibaka, but there's
surrounding orbits and theartists there.
You get Suido Kench Theon Cross,all over there in the London
scene too, ezra Collective,which is literally a group of
young, recent alumni from thetomorrow Warriors program have
(42:59):
been touring internationally,played Lincoln Hall a few months
ago.
Andrew (43:03):
I saw that part.
That name's familiar, so I sawit on the top of the shot.
Jenna (43:07):
Yeah, it's amazing what the power of this collective
support can do.
And what gets me that, I think,is kind of just mind-blowing
about all of this is the factthat this is coming back into
not a jazz headspace, it iscoming back into a I don't want
to think of like indie heads,but, you know, like the general
(43:28):
music consumer population.
And especially talking about aKamasi Washington to take it
back to LA.
We're talking pop and hip-hop.
People Like Kamasi played, Ithink, lala Palooza.
That's insane.
When have you ever heard of ajazz artist playing Lala Palooza
?
But that's the kind of draw hehas.
He sold out the Riviera Theateronce Like I've seen him live a
(43:49):
couple times.
It's phenomenal.
But the fact that he's able toachieve that level of access
with a general audience,bringing jazz back into the
general cultural narrative andnot just like, oh, that's jazz.
Andrew (44:01):
You know like, oh, that's this thing, it's lost.
It's like academic, likehuh-huh, but it's not lost any
of its like academic, liketalent, or any of its like like
instrumental musicianship, right.
Jenna (44:13):
Well, and I think there's some of the people who want to
make it you know, but it's, itis going past post-jazz.
It is going past jazz to aplace where people who had felt
maybe marginalized by where jazzhas gone recently.
It's bringing them back andthen also, on the Kamasi side of
it, incorporating thoseelements that make it more
(44:35):
musically digestible for peoplewho have been alienated by the
rigidity of treasure.
Will (44:44):
When it speaks to their flexibility of saying like we
understand the pulse, here's howwe're gonna sell this to these
people.
Jenna (44:50):
You know, that's all very intentional too, which is and
the connections back to hip-hoptoo, like you know, getting
Kendrick to guest on a orgetting Kamasi to guest on a
Kendrick track or, you know,teres Martin dinner party.
That is such a greatcollaboration.
It's.
Andrew (45:04):
Teres.
Jenna (45:04):
Martin Kamasi, washington and someone else.
I'm blanking on, but they dolike a combo of trip-hop and
jazz, and it is fantastic.
Will (45:11):
And not just being talented but knowing like these
people will elevate this for meor help me get it on the main
stage Right, and they seek thoseelements out in their music, so
like when they're.
Jenna (45:21):
You know, kendrick to Pimp a Butterfly is an amazing
album but, like some of theguest sax tracks on there, like
bringing in these more abstractelements that aren't just
straight samples, you know, notpulling samples from old funk
tracks but making his ownsamples with Kamasi.
It's just.
It's so cool to see andbringing what I feel weird to
(45:43):
even call jazz at this point tothis wider audience is
remarkable, and that also callsback to, like, the power and
value of collaboration versuscompetition within you know
those circles and building thosefamilies, you know they've all
gotten farther from buildingthese collectives together.
Will (46:00):
We get better music that way.
Jenna (46:02):
Yeah better art, better outcomes and bringing your
message to a wider audience too,because in some ways so.
There's a very specific trackI'm thinking of.
That is Kamasi.
It's a terrorist Martin track,kamasi guests on it.
There's a couple of otherguests, but it's called Pig Feet
and it was released right after2020.
(46:23):
All that went down with GeorgeFloyd and there's a lot of
graphic sound effects and stuffbut, just having those jazz
elements in there.
I think and this is to speak alittle defamatorily about the
general listening audience ofhip hop, which is to say not
(46:44):
about the listening audience,people who won't listen to hip
hop, let's put it that way yeah,yeah, yeah.
I feel like putting thoseelements in there brings people
in who would normally be likewell, this is a hip hop track.
I'm not going to listen to itbut bringing in the sax,
bringing in the more melodicelements, it suddenly is like oh
, this is art now, this is artnow which I kind of hate.
Andrew (47:05):
You're kind of saying yeah, we know, yeah, yeah.
Will (47:07):
It's unfair, but it's cool that they did that.
Jenna (47:11):
It's unfair, but I think it made people take the song
more seriously.
Maybe if it was a learningmoment, maybe there is some it
made it more impactful, eventhough that's not fair, Right
but I think there was a hearingof the power of that element in
incorporating that and making ithave people realize like, oh no
(47:32):
, this is bigger than just we'redropping this track.
But I think that's also a bigcriticism of people who won't
listen to hip hop.
Will (47:42):
Yeah, I mean, that's a whole other, that's a whole
other kettle of fish but yeah itnever hurts, just to listen to
it.
Andrew (47:48):
No, you won't have to try it out, just to try it out.
Intense tracks, that is anextremely intense track.
Jenna (47:53):
I'll put that on the playlist too but it is yeah,
yeah.
The re-incorporation of, Ithink, these jazz elements to
kind of wake people's brains upand putting them in unfamiliar
juxtaposition sonically alsospeaks to the most element.
Andrew (48:07):
It lends itself perfectly.
Yeah, yeah.
Jenna (48:11):
And it brings in new audiences, and I think that's
worth exploring for sure.
Andrew (48:16):
I do like.
Specifically I mean referencingsons of Komet, but I guess
without much more knowledgebeyond that, and just going off
of what you were saying too, Ithink this music is like.
I hope it.
I hope what happens here withjazz and whatever else is
flowing into this happens inother spaces, right?
Will (48:34):
Yeah.
Andrew (48:35):
Like if you take you, if you, if you kind of blueprint
this and kind of apply itsomewhere else, like what would
that look like?
Right, Like what could whatcould reimagined sort of like
rock be like in this way?
Jenna (48:47):
I was thinking like in any rock, if that's still even a
thing, absolutely needs thatwake up call.
Andrew (48:52):
As you were talking, I kept thinking like bands like
this are why people say rock iskind of dying.
Yeah, because this is a littlebit more you can't say more
interesting or more compelling,but this sort of is like it's
fresher, it's newer.
It's it's more intentional.
It has more to say yeah.
It has more to say yeah.
Jenna (49:11):
I think, I think, when you're thinking about indie rock
, because I was trying to draw aparallel and my only thought
was well, there's the bigre-incorporation of, like
electronic influences into that.
Andrew (49:20):
But I'd say I think it's still rock.
Jenna (49:21):
The vast majority of those bands don't have anything
to say.
They just want to be there andhave a good time.
Will (49:25):
And there's something for that.
Jenna (49:27):
But if we're talking about a re-invigoration, I mean
coming into a musicalexploration place with
intentionality, with a sense ofcommunity, and I think that's a
big part of it too is justthere's a very strong spirit of
community and collaboration hereis going to naturally be more
innovative than we're just doingthis to come around and it
(49:51):
always produces a better productLike when rock has had moments
like that.
Will (49:56):
It's always been because, like, a bunch of people were in
a similar area collaborating andmaking better music, like all
the New York scene stuff, allthe like stuff out of LA, like
you know that's happened in thepast 10-20 years.
Jenna (50:08):
Yeah, like DFA was all just friends.
Will (50:10):
Yeah, I mean DFA the Strokes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, as all thatstuff came out of the same
crucible.
Jenna (50:14):
Well and to kind of speak to the younger people side of
this reservoir that Bandaimentioned earlier and also
International Anthem.
But this is very much a bandthat is a group of friends and
it's Will Miller who was thebrass person for Whitney, with
Sema Cunningham, macy Stewartfrom Phenom, ohm.
(50:34):
This is like all Chicago indiescene people.
Brandy Younger actually guessedit.
On this album They've got allsorts of different collaborators
from other labels.
They're all the same age andthey just put out this beautiful
through composed album.
That's a bunch of peopleriffing off of each other and to
see it live was amazing.
(50:54):
It's where you start to get thebleed over to Super Records,
send More Moto, who also playsX-Felmety Raps too, so he has,
like some.
There's hip hop crossover there.
Andrew (51:04):
So if you were to start to dive into this, start with
the like Chicago London scene,the older, like the older
generation of people doing this,and then to cut even more of an
edge, you're saying like theyounger kids these days or like
kind of doing.
Jenna (51:17):
Yeah, I mean, it depends on how you're defining the edge.
Andrew (51:20):
I suppose I'd say a lot of the Further removed from jazz
.
Jenna (51:24):
That's true.
It's also more accessible.
I would say the reservoir stuff.
It's more on the Kamasi side ofthe spectrum where it's further
removed from jazz, but it'staking the elements of jazz into
a more universal space, which Ithink is maybe even more
interesting than just likereally driving deep on the angle
(51:45):
of jazz there.
Kamasi's thing, I feel like, isthe most pop version of this
trend.
I'm describing to a point whereyou can hear almost like Bert
Backerach level cinematic pop,orchestral influences.
Reservoir has a lot of that butthey're taking the instrumental
, orchestral collaborativetechnicality of the Makaya of
(52:08):
the Shibaka groups that Kamasiis really.
He has a lot of that but he'svery more focused on like a solo
sound.
This feels more collaborative,more group effort.
Andrew (52:18):
It's good that these intracene dynamics exist this
early on.
Jenna (52:22):
Yeah.
Andrew (52:22):
It's good yeah.
Jenna (52:23):
And it all feels just.
There's a beautiful melodicharmony of it that feels
ritualistic when you listen toit.
This is where?
Andrew (52:32):
Yeah, this is definitely jazz removal territory but it's
like this overarchingatmosphere or like almost
pantomime to the whole album,especially when you
compartmentalize at least allthis music in the album format,
like these albums can tell astory through and through, like
you said, not just collectionsof songs and riffs and kind of
just.
It's cinematic yeah it is ait's totally cinema.
Jenna (52:54):
Yeah.
Andrew (52:54):
And, oh man, this is why I love certain types of heavy
metal.
There's exactly the samecinematic application to other
styles of music too, even in theheavy metal scene.
Me personally, I'm drawn verymuch to that.
Jenna (53:09):
Absolutely.
And the amazing thing about allof this is I don't know where
the culmination is.
I don't know, it's stillknowing.
Andrew (53:16):
That's the exciting part .
I know, right, I'm like it'sgonna keep building.
This is why music is stillexciting, yeah, and I don't know
where the road's gonna take us,but it's gonna be a fascinating
journey.
Will (53:25):
The road came not to know the road's gonna take us right
into the comment section below.
Get in the comment.
Andrew (53:32):
And the description where we're gonna link and
obviously itemize some links foryou a playlist blog code.
Jenna (53:36):
Yeah, oh, I already have such a long playlist, don't even
worry.
So yeah, to check out the blog.
Andrew (53:41):
That's why To actually hear with your ears what we are
talking about.
Of course, it will certainlyhelp.
Jenna (53:45):
Yeah, I know we're throwing a lot of proper nouns
and names at you in a lot ofdescriptive terms, but listen to
the playlist, tell us yourthoughts If you have a better
name than post-Jazz for what weare talking about, please tell
us because.
I don't want to call itpost-Jazz.
Will (54:00):
Well, it's gonna save.
What do we have Like top threehere?
Jenna (54:03):
Oh boy, I thought of a couple.
Okay, what you got.
Will (54:06):
Universal Jazz, transatlantic Jazz these are
actually not bad.
I don't know if they're right,but they're what they've got.
Universal might be too general.
Andrew (54:15):
Transatlantic Maybe like a little bit.
Jenna (54:18):
Transatlantic sounds mid-century to me.
Andrew (54:20):
Also, isn't the old timey type of speech?
Jenna (54:24):
in the 50s movies.
This is like I know.
Andrew (54:26):
I can't do it, it's crazy Transatlantic.
Will (54:28):
Yeah, it's a transatlantic action.
Andrew (54:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's hard.
Yeah, the post-Jazz, I think,is it's tough not to crack it's
unfortunately, like the way itimmediately brings your brain to
it.
Jenna (54:40):
Yeah, I want to say something with cinematic, but it
just sounds shitty.
Yeah it really does.
Will (54:44):
It sounds like something you don't want to listen to.
Post-punk, ruined post-hyphen,anything.
I just can't do that when I'mgoing to work.
I mean, I think whatever genrethat gets settled on will not be
super interesting.
Jenna (54:55):
After-jazz that almost sounds better because it's more
intense After-Jazz.
Or like dystopian but it's notdystopian.
Andrew (55:03):
It's utopian, it's more like trip-hop.
Will (55:05):
That's a good one.
Jenna (55:06):
Trip-hop is a good one.
Anyway, we'll puzzle on it.
Andrew (55:09):
Yeah, anyway, I like comment, subscribe whatever you
need to do to say hey, we'llhave everything for you in the
description and enjoy thecomment section.
Cheers, it was FinChenna,Thanks for making it out.
Thank you.
Woo hey man whatcha doin' bymyself I find city walk boys a
hey man Whatcha doin' by myselfa snack.
Will (55:31):
I say hey man, whatcha doin' by myself?
I believe that it's city walkboys a hey man, whatcha doin' by
myself a snack.
Welcome to SoundSagas.
We're back with another guestepisode featuring Jenna Chapman,
DJ Polymath super cool person,and Andrew's here too, hey guys.
Andrew (00:34):
I'm here too, just an accessory, it's fun.
Jenna (00:37):
Don't worry about it, we actually all know each other.
Will (00:39):
Yeah, I don't mean to belittle you, so it's kind of
weird to introduce each otherright.
Andrew (00:42):
It's like kind of like knowing each other a little bit.
But yeah, Jenna DJs, of course,is on the radio and we actually
went to school together.
Jenna (00:53):
Yes, the deepest of cuts.
Will (00:54):
Yeah, so like it goes back , yeah.
Andrew (00:58):
But obviously a lover of music like deep down you
wouldn't point being, youwouldn't operate in all these
spaces like DJing and stuff ifyou didn't love music.
Jenna (01:07):
It's true.
Yeah, you know, all thepragmatism of your youth comes
back at you, and maybe it's notyour day job, but you find ways
to integrate it into your life,and music has truly been a part
of my entire life.
Nice, nice.
Will (01:20):
Yeah, I mean for all of us .
But today, what do you want totalk about with us?
Jenna (01:26):
Well, I would love to talk about it seems silly to say
out loud I love jazz and I wantto talk about a pattern I've
been noticing in local jazz andjazz worldwide, frankly.
But there's a cool thinghappening and I don't know what
to call it, so I would love totalk to you about it and see if
we can like come up with someideas or something.
(01:48):
But I can also just talk alittle bit about my experience
with jazz in the Chicago areabeing kind of a crucible for
jazz music throughout history,but especially now, and how I
came to be someone who consumesa large variety and quantity Of
jazz in various formats Cool andjust to clarify do you mean
(02:11):
like we were coming up with agenre name, kind of like the
shoe gaze phenomenon?
It's something I've beenthinking about because I've done
some digging on articles to seeif there's already a name for
this phenomenon that I've beennoticing and I haven't found one
yet.
That's really called it out.
There's been things that not toget too ahead of ourselves here,
(02:33):
but you know, there areinfluences of bringing hip hop
back into jazz, there'sAfrofuturist elements, and they
all call out the elements, butthere's not a name for the
movement or anything that I'veseen.
I don't think anyone's gone sofar as to call it a movement and
I struggle with that a littlebit because I see a very clear,
(02:53):
defined pattern and categoryhere without a name.
So if y'all are thinking ofstuff while we're talking, or if
y'all are listening and come upwith some cool ideas, let us
know, because I would love tohave a label to slap on this
other than like a specificrecord label.
Will (03:11):
I like that.
It's like a cool, achievable,definable goal amidst the
conversation, but also gettingthe comments.
Andrew (03:19):
And it's something I've been thinking about for a while
and I can't quite put my fingeron it, so maybe articulating it
and this conversation will helpA prior episode you had
mentioned to me, like when I hadstarted defining sort of
category based shapes aroundsounds and heavy music like
heavy metal, you were like well,that's very music journalist of
you.
(03:40):
Yeah, there is an element ofthat too, that way of thinking.
But like broader stroke, Ithink what you're saying too is
like you sense like somethingdifferent sounding coming out
and there's like not really away to like quickly articulate
what that is.
Jenna (03:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Well, this is the perfectformat for particularly let's
get into it.
Tell me more.
Will (04:03):
Great Well, where do we?
Jenna (04:03):
want to start.
Will (04:06):
At the beginning, at the beginning, okay.
Jenna (04:08):
When I was a wee lass back in the day.
No, actually, though, I guessit would probably help to talk a
little bit about my personalexperience with this.
Yeah, yeah, I grew up in thesuburbs of Chicago, which is,
you know, pretty homogenous, asit were, but we were always on
the metro train line fromChicago and my parents.
(04:32):
We were a family that grew upwith the radio on in the house
all the time.
Wdcb is the local jazz stationin Chicago.
It was always on at my house.
And yeah, honestly great station.
It's an absolute legacy and myfolks were always really good at
integrating their children intoadult activities, one of which
(04:54):
is sitting down and shutting upduring a jazz concert.
And they actually found youknow that we go to Ravina and
stuff like that but they found acouple of clubs in Chicago that
actually would permit kids.
Will (05:07):
Right.
Jenna (05:08):
And one of those.
This is a deep cut but it wasBlues and Jazz and Blue.
You know Blues, chicago likeit's BLUVS, like the
abbreviation, it's a touristtrap kind of.
Will (05:18):
Blues Club near downtown.
Jenna (05:19):
Yeah, I'm not familiar with it, yeah, so so they had
this, this big kind of touristtrappy club, but it was a good
Blues Club.
They had a store it was justcalled Blue Chicago Store but in
the basement they would do allages shows and it was all the
same big names that would comethrough for literally a dozen
people in folding metal chairsInteresting.
(05:41):
I remember being 12 and goingdown to the basement of this
place on, like Erie or somethingNice, and there was a heart
battle.
Like two harmonica playersbrought out a suitcase full of
harmonicas and they did like afull Blues set with Dually
Harmonicas.
Andrew (05:55):
That's dope, that your parents did that like expose you
to that I have a similar like.
Growing up, my parents took meout to this French Creole
restaurant that always had livejazz.
Nice, it was, it was more oflike that, like more upscale
kind of feely kind ofenvironment Deaster-esque, but
then they would take afterdinner they take me out to this
bar and my mom would talk to thebouncer and be like Somehow
(06:16):
somehow.
I'm 15 and I can drink a dietCoke or a Coke at the bar and
sit and like no one saysanything and they have live
music, you know, like a fourpiece or five piece jazz band.
Will (06:25):
Yeah.
Andrew (06:27):
And like I gotta tell you that got me into other music
.
Jenna (06:29):
I'm saying like bringing kids to live music is so
important and I did pianolessons when I was really little
and then when you know thattime comes in elementary school
where they're like picking aninstrument, and I don't know if
they did that for y'all, but itwas like fifth grade, sixth
grade, for us Came a littlelater for me, yeah.
So we had a younger musicprogram and they only let people
(06:51):
who had piano experience dopercussion and so I was the only
girl who wanted to dopercussion.
So I was like, yeah, maybe adrummer, and then go into these
jazz shows with my folks andlike seeing the drummers and how
intense all of that was and thedrum solos and jazz sets are
wild.
Andrew (07:08):
They're just off chain all the time.
Will (07:10):
Yeah.
Andrew (07:11):
It's like part of the reason why I gravitated so
quickly to heavy metal from jazzis not necessarily like the
aesthetic carryovers, but likethe flipping solos man.
Oh yeah, the improvisational,all of it, totally yeah.
Jenna (07:25):
And being able to come up with that off the cuff is still
something I do not have ahandle on.
I took drum set lessons forthree years and never got it
Anyway, digression yeah.
I grew up listening to a lot ofjazz and knowing who these
artists were, because my dad hasalways been a huge music person
.
I very much get that from himand he would always talk to me
about who we were listening to.
And you know, we'd be listeningto Led Zeppelin and he'd be
(07:47):
like all right now you have tomemorize it's.
It's um John Paul Jones andRobert Plans and John Bonham,
you know so he justunderstanding the names,
concepts.
Will (07:56):
Yeah, yeah, just drilling on that.
Jenna (07:58):
And so we would go to these clubs.
And then, as I got older, I hada really tight knit group of
friends probably my juniorsenior year of high school who
were all deeply embedded in themusic program.
So I was in two school choirsand two church choirs and band
(08:18):
and did my study hall in themusic department office and you
know it was like very in thatland and, for whatever reason,
the the kids that were twogrades younger than me were
deeply also embedded in music,and so I ended up befriending a
couple of them, one of whom is,uh, an old friend of mine who
(08:38):
now performs different kinds ofmusic in the city.
So if you ever heard DPCD, alQuads, an amazing artist, also
keyboardist for the band Iverson, if you've ever heard of them,
uh, but he used to be big intojazz, okay, and so he got
together with some other kids inthe jazz program, went to this
there's like a jazz incubatorfor high school kids in the city
(09:00):
like, did all this stuff endedup going to a program out in
Stockton, california?
That's like a college for jazzpeople at one point.
Andrew (09:08):
Super, super deep on it.
Jenna (09:10):
And, um, they played Taste of Chicago on one of the
opening stages, just doing alljazz stuff, and that got me
going to a lot more jazz showswhen I was in my teen years
because I would go to his showsand be like this is so cool and
he would like play all thisdifferent stuff and I, I just
started hearing the pieces andrecognizing what they were.
(09:30):
It just very much followed mefrom childhood through adulthood
to know what these referencepoints were, and I don't think
I've ever stopped listening tojazz.
There's probably been a pointin time at which I wasn't
consuming the new stuff as much.
And, honestly, a lot of new jazzbefore, and I don't want to
(09:53):
draw any hard lines in the sandhere.
But a lot of what people see ascontemporary jazz is
reiterations of traditional jazz, like calling back to hardbop,
calling back to Coltrane, youknow, like Davis, all the greats
they're not necessarilychanging the format.
Andrew (10:11):
You know what I mean.
Jenna (10:13):
And a lot of the stuff I feel like I heard that was still
new growing up was justreiterations of traditional
format jazz, which is not a badthing.
Seeing that live is fantastic.
Will (10:24):
But I think that holds true to just how people practice
and perform music too.
Andrew (10:30):
Yeah, no one shits on Stoner Doom for sending like
Black Sabbath.
Yeah, I mean like it is likeBlack Sabbath, just heavier or
newer, and but people love it,like it's so popular, right,
right, yeah, like you find theformat you stick with it and you
get it.
Jenna (10:44):
But what has captured my attention, what I want to bring
to this conversation is, I wantto say, 21st century for sure.
Probably late 2000s, early2010s is when I've really
noticed this stuff starting tocome through, but like the
format is changing and that'swhat's really interesting.
Will (11:05):
Yeah, I mean to circle back a little bit like huge
proponent of all ages shows, Imean yes.
I don't know if you would havegotten there without all that
Like I was always amazed andlike impressed when I could go
to a show when I was under 18.
Jenna (11:20):
Yeah.
Will (11:21):
Like it was a harder thing to do than it should be.
Jenna (11:23):
Yeah, and it still is I mean yeah.
Andrew (11:26):
I mean at House of Blues .
Recently was all ages.
That's good, you hear kids inthe crowd.
Will (11:30):
I do see way more of it than when I was in high school.
Jenna (11:32):
And it tends to be more prominent in the suburbs,
obviously just because youexpect more families and stuff.
But yeah, even.
Will (11:40):
They didn't usually have an interest in it.
Yeah Right, which is alwaysbeen an issue.
Jenna (11:44):
And in the city you know small clubs.
It's like you were saying, youknow I could get in with my
parents sometimes, right, right,I wonder how much you do that
now.
Andrew (11:50):
This is this would have been back in the 90s, yeah.
Early 2000s, Early 2000s.
But yeah, depending on who youknow.
And yeah, you can get your 16year old if he sits in the
corner and is quiet or somethingyeah.
You know, but right Access at ayoung age is so critical.
So anytime people kind of poopoo all ages shows, I'm always
(12:11):
like I get you but reallyunderstand like it's important
for kids to see music yeah.
Will (12:18):
And you have all this context now for why you're like,
oh, this is different than allthis other stuff I got to see.
Jenna (12:22):
Yeah, yeah, and I'll say specifically for jazz in the
city jazz showcase is a greatone about allowing all ages
shows there in South Loop.
That was one we got to go towhen I was younger, and they
have a Sunday matinee at four.
Will (12:35):
So if it's like if you ever want to go see jazz and
you're like I don't want to beout till 10pm.
Jenna (12:40):
They're a great one for that.
They do have a bar, so adultsdon't worry.
Andrew (12:44):
But yeah it is.
Jenna (12:46):
it's a great space and I often see kids in there and it's
really cool to see them showingjazz.
Andrew (12:51):
How would you describe like, what's like the what's
like the quick synopsis?
I guess on the format changeyou were talking about, like
yeah, absolutely so.
Jenna (13:01):
kind of the thesis statement in my mind is a
reincorporation.
So jazz is the OG, right, Imean blues is really the OG, but
jazz is kind of for a lot ofAmerican music, a format that
launched many, many others.
Andrew (13:18):
Yeah.
Jenna (13:19):
So what I'm seeing is a reincorporation of subsequent
music styles like hip hop funk,r&b probably the biggest ones, a
little Motown maybe, but reallymore the kind that have like
long jam capability.
Will (13:38):
But you would call it a fusion, you would call it more
of like a segment.
Jenna (13:42):
So think about it, as this is the next generation
right.
This is folks who, on theoldest, are maybe 10 years older
than us, like 40s, like Ihaven't seen anybody over 50
doing this kind of music.
Necessarily People who grew uplistening to hip hop, people who
grew up jamming to you knowearth, wind and fire and
(14:06):
Parliament, funkadelic and allthat stuff on the older side,
and maybe that was theirparents' music, but definitely
80s, 90s hip hop and bringingthat aesthetic back to jazz,
that is, with a little outsidecurve of some just free
improvisational classical andreturn to deeply roots elements
(14:32):
like gospel and traditionalmusic.
Andrew (14:35):
Is this like post-jazz?
Jenna (14:37):
It might be post-jazz, honestly.
Will (14:39):
I would say to type that into Google, but I really want
to.
Post-anything that pisses meoff, not gonna lie.
Jenna (14:45):
We can win to it down, that's a good starting point.
But I think the biggestinfluence the biggest influence
is hip hop for sure.
And I think that is kind ofencapsulated in the artist who I
see as a focal point for a lotof this innovation, makaya
McRaven, chicago drummer Denveris reductive.
He actually refers to himselfas a beat scientist and while
(15:08):
that might sound pretentious inany other context, in the
context of the music he's doing,it absolutely makes sense
because he's rearrangingtraditional jazz elements with a
very percussion, heavy focusand bringing in jazz.
When you think of, traditionaljazz has a very specific beat
pattern.
Right, it's like the like.
(15:30):
There's like a bunch ofdifferent ones, but they're all
very swung or they're very likelinear.
Right, this is triples, this istime signature changes, this is
the overlay of time structures.
That hip hop has a lot of timewhere you have a big driving
down beat but then you have thelike a bunch of.
Is he doing?
Andrew (15:48):
like polyrhythmic stuff.
There's some polyrhythmic stuff, for sure, okay.
Jenna (15:51):
so it's like really like scientifically, yeah, yeah like
he is honing in on exactly whatbeat he wants, and sometimes
even just the juxtaposition oftraditional jazz elements with a
more two-four heavy hip hopbeat, as opposed to a swung jazz
beat, flips the scriptsonically on what's happening.
Will (16:11):
And this is the main element you were talking about,
where it's a format change.
Jenna (16:15):
Yeah, it really feels like that.
So you have yeah, percussion iskind of the foundation of this.
There's also an element ofallericism in the melody, part
of it.
So I feel like Tragas is youhave a hook that is repeated and
then you have animprovisational piece.
Okay, there's a lot morethrough composition and this
(16:37):
stuff.
So you're seeing melodies andmotifs that are drawn out
through an entire piece, ratherthan you know, here's this
little riff, here's a break forimprov, here's the little riff.
Again, you know, I don't wantto say there isn't an
improvisation, there's a ton ofimprovisation, but there's a
sort of ambient or atmosphericquality of these melodies.
(16:57):
There's a lot more harmoniesthere's a lot more layer and if
you took the beat away it wouldalmost be sonically slow or
actual ambient.
Yeah, I'm hating it the moreyou say it, but it's also so
true.
Andrew (17:11):
With the question what do we call this?
Yeah, unfortunately theatmosphere element is the nail
in a coffin.
Will (17:18):
Yeah.
So maybe we'll like think on it, do a top five at the end, but
having not heard any of this, orat least not knowing that I've
heard any of this.
Andrew (17:26):
this all sounds very, very like compelling yeah.
Jenna (17:29):
Well, and I'll say, there are elements of this in more
accessible music.
So I'm talking about Makaya, asort of related piece that is
much probably more prominentwould be the work that Kamasi
Washington has done, if you'refamiliar with him.
The LA scene of whatever thismovement is.
Whatever this type of music is,is much more indirect contact
(17:52):
with hip hop music so like.
Kamasi has worked with KendrickLamar with.
Tarris Martin.
There's a lot more immediatecrossover Right and in that
music you see a lot moreaccessible pop forward elements
that honestly, I had thisthought once and I can't get out
of my head and might sound dumb, but I see a lot of callbacks,
(18:14):
like Bert Backerach and thatlevel of like orchestral melodic
cinematic composition.
Will (18:20):
I don't think it's dumb.
Andrew (18:21):
He has influenced a lot of.
That's not dumb, that's that'syeah.
That makes me I'm having toconceptualize that.
That's really interesting yeah.
Jenna (18:28):
But so that is like very much the pop side of the coin
and that's not.
That's not meant to bederogatory at all.
It's like, if you want a one onone entry level to what jazz
has changed into being.
Kamasi is a great access pointfor that because he's
incorporating the Afrofuturistelements.
He's incorporating the cinematicmelodic scale of everything
(18:51):
through composition but he'salso more immediately calling
back to the hip hop stuff andhe's doing it in a way that
someone who is not a jazzconsumer can listen to and enjoy
immediately, rather than havingto learn the jazz vocabulary
which I feel like as much.
As my main focus here is theinternational anthem which I'll
(19:12):
get into in a little bit.
The London scene of thisShabaka Hutchings Sons of Kamet
Comet is coming.
That music is maybe not asaccessible to someone who
doesn't necessarily have thesame background, with jazz and
consuming that music becauseit's just like it's harder to
find.
Andrew (19:32):
Yeah, and you maybe a bit more esoteric.
Maybe a little more esoteric.
Jenna (19:36):
I mean you said you listen to some of the songs of
Kamet, right?
Andrew (19:38):
Yeah, I listen to some of the songs of Kamet and now
that we talk and this fits thebill, yeah, so how did you find
Sons of Kamet when you werefirst listening to?
it as someone who maybe doesn'tdo the best of jazz.
One of the people who have givenme two of my favorite
recommendations of albums in along time for a while and this
is back in the day when I wasdoing music journalism was the
(20:00):
ex-head editor of the websitethat I became head editor of.
So one of the people before meand he just recommended me Sons
of Kamet.
Like hey, check this.
He gave me no context.
He said I think you might likethis and I immediately was drawn
to, obviously like the jazzyelements of it, that I kind of
grew up with listening to jazzand that was being like my first
(20:21):
live music experience wasalways jazz and like immediately
hooked onto it because of that,but also because, like you said
, it has an expressive likeoverarching motif to it.
It has a more atmosphericquality and it has different
beats and melodies than I'm usedto in what you call trad jazz.
So I'm like I immediatelythought it was like.
I'm like this is cutting edge,like this is cool, this sounds
new, this is interesting andit's not.
(20:42):
It's not jazz.
Jenna (20:44):
Right, thank you, jazz, I'm like.
But it is in a way, it is jazz,but yeah, cutting edge was my
first thought too.
It feels so different that itneeds to be something else.
Andrew (20:53):
I think it does.
Jenna (20:54):
And I really hope it's not post jazz, but it might be.
Andrew (20:56):
I mean, I think that's, I think that's an easy way to
sell it or to say it, but it'swhen you say, post anything
you're, you're bringing in a lotof connotation to that.
Jenna (21:06):
You're bringing in a lot of like what do I think?
Andrew (21:09):
So I think generally you should hesitate away from the
post, the post prefix.
Jenna (21:14):
I mean, as we've learned from punk.
Yeah, yeah I mean, but it isrock yeah.
Andrew (21:20):
These things are things and like post metal and post
black metal, these things exist,even subcategories down.
But in general, I think when wewhen we want to explore it more
deeply, we would steer awayfrom post and try to be more
specific about what we meanwhich is exactly what we're
doing.
But yeah, sons of Comet will putlinks for everything you
mentioned.
Yeah, sons of Comet, definitely, like I just and we talked
(21:44):
about this with Chris butmovement like music of movement,
like not to say that jazz ortrad jazz inherently doesn't
have any body.
Jenna (21:53):
Oh, it absolutely does.
Andrew (21:55):
But this maybe gains, but definitely doesn't lose any
of that.
Jenna (21:59):
I think there is a more where maybe the previous
generations of jazz had to be,and actually that's not entirely
true.
I mean, you think about AtlasColtrane, you think about Miles
Davis.
Miles Davis was never shy aboutwhat his, his stanzas were, and
John Coltrane definitely hadsome huge spiritual and I'm just
(22:20):
calling out big names.
But like all the, all the guysfrom especially like the 60s,
you know, hardbop kind of postmovements there there were
absolutely social movementsinvolved in their music.
But whether it's because theseartists in this iteration have
more incorporation of vocals,maybe there's a more explicit
(22:44):
incorporation of gospel themesor themes that are more
obviously in some sort oftranscendentalist space.
Andrew (22:53):
Yeah.
Jenna (22:54):
It really does feel like the Black Power, the
Afrofuturism, the and in Londonthere's a specific aligning with
the culture of the West Indiesas well in that music, but it
all feels very much moreintentional and explicit this
time around.
Gotcha, you can, you can.
(23:15):
There are artists in this spacethat that is the ethos of their
work, so if you look at AngelBataweed, who is on the
International Anthem recordlabel, and I'll say
International Anthem is a greatstarting point for this kind of
music.
They're a Chicago based label.
They're covering a ton ofartists.
(23:36):
We've talked about MakayaMcRaven, all the people in
Makaya McRaven's band, junius,paul Marquise Hill all those
guys Desirene Douglas, brandyYounger, who's a harpist, and
that's another thing is theincorporation of not
traditionally jazz instrumentsinto this.
So harp, cello, all sorts ofdifferent stuff, but Angel
(23:57):
Bataweed, her whole thing is allof her music comes from a place
of empowering Black boys andcalling to that experience, that
pain, whatever it might be, andit's achingly beautiful because
of that.
Obviously not the best personto speak on all of the
experiences incorporated in that, but we can definitely post
(24:18):
some links in the website andblog post for writers who can
speak to that a bit more but.
Angel has the.
Actually, let me, let me pullup the name it's the Great Black
Music course.
I believe, yeah, she does aGreat Black Music course at Cook
County Juvenile TemporaryDetention Center through Old
(24:39):
Town School of Folk.
And she's looking to start herown music school and all of her
music is rooted in speaking tothat experience and her music
verges between that kind oftruly free, transcendental of
genre type of music and havingjazz elements, having classical
elements.
She's a clarinetist, she's asinger, she's a pianist.
(25:01):
Actually, as a sidebar, one ofthe best jazz shows I've ever
been to in the city I took myparents to Elastic Arts Center,
which is a second story randomloft conversion space in Logan
Square that does jazz andcontemporary music.
Will (25:18):
Yeah, a lot of experimental music too.
Jenna (25:19):
A lot of experimental music.
I took my parents to see AngelBataweed there and my mom and I
ended up dancing in the aisleand Angel was like running
around the whole space playingclarinet and just like throwing
her hands up.
And she came and hugged us andshe's like wearing full paint
and like garb and everything,and it was honestly felt
amazingly spiritual.
Andrew (25:38):
It was a beautiful musical experience, that's
awesome.
Jenna (25:41):
I feel like Chicago that city in the world to get some of
that.
Will (25:45):
I mean, I was going to say actually, like all of this
seems very alike happening rightnow, in this moment progressive
wild, but in like a coolartistic sense.
And it's bizarre to me, butalso cool that it's happening
like right down the block youknow, like I'm elastic arts is
my neighborhood.
Like all these shows that arehappening, like this is all
(26:06):
stuff happening right here.
Jenna (26:07):
Well, and that's probably a great space to talk about
where all of this is happeningand who's involved.
Cause I know I've dropped abunch of names and we're like,
who are all these people?
So really the crucibles of thisin my mind are Chicago and
London and a lot of the bands wetalk about Sunza, komet,
shibaka, that's all London.
Makaya, angel InternationalAnthem is all Chicago and we can
(26:29):
really kind of break it downinto where is this happening and
why and who was involved, andthen the pieces all kind of
strung together.
Andrew (26:37):
It's cool that you mentioned that the more like the
more activist side of it like,the more like the more social
messaging side of it is partinherently almost, I think of
what you're saying is like it'spart of the part of the music
itself.
Jenna (26:52):
Yes.
Andrew (26:52):
Yeah, you could not describe this new way of music
without describing thatmessaging or that lyricism.
Yeah, it's very much inherent,yeah, yeah, tied into itself.
I think it's important to saythat and taking the flavor of
that.
Will (27:02):
And that makes it now.
Jenna (27:03):
That makes it very natural and the flavor of that
in Chicago versus London is alsovery different, because those
experiences are so different andwe can talk a little bit about
why that might be for each ofthose spaces.
Really, the kind of crucibles ofthis scene I do see as being
Chicago and London and there'speople behind that, but there's
institutions behind that.
(27:24):
So in Chicago it's MakayaMcRaven.
I won't say any of them arelike the father of the local
scene, but it does feel likeMakaya is the uncle that gets
everyone over to his house forThanksgiving.
You know what?
Andrew (27:36):
I mean.
So, like these are the firststop, you would go, yeah, yeah.
Jenna (27:39):
And then you would branch off from there as a person.
But really I think the reasonfor that is because of the
record label InternationalAnthem.
So this is International AnthemRecording Co.
It is a Chicago label that wasfounded in 2012.
And they are Scotty McNeese andDave Allen, and they founded
(28:00):
this label, I think, just tobring this kind of music
together.
Scotty, I think, is someone whostarted his career as
programming music forrestaurants.
Like you work for HogsoltHospitality.
Will (28:16):
It's so strange, right.
Jenna (28:18):
Yeah, but if you think about that kind of music, the
sort of acid house informed kindof jazz Elevated music.
Yeah, OK, don't bring that intothe space.
Will (28:28):
I'm not trying to bring it down.
Wow, I mean, that's thementality it's working from.
Jenna (28:35):
You want to seem innovative, but you also want to
have accessible instrumental.
Will (28:40):
I mean as someone who listens to the SimCity 3000
unlimited soundtrack for real.
Jenna (28:45):
Respect actually.
Will (28:46):
That's solid.
Jenna (28:47):
But so someone who has that kind of mentality approach
to music, they formed.
Will (28:52):
That makes sense.
Jenna (28:53):
Yeah, they formed International Anthem, and so a
lot of the artists we've talkedabout so far Mackay McCraven,
angel Batawid, junius PaulDeseron, douglas Brandy Younger
I'm just going to be like aproper noun.
Souffle but all of thesecreators that have made music in
(29:15):
this post-jazz space, orwhatever we're calling it in the
US.
Almost all of them havereleased albums on International
Anthem.
And this is a Chicago label.
So not only is the music comingfrom Chicago in a very real
sense, but a vast majority ofthe creators either live in or
(29:35):
spend a lot of time in Chicago,and a good example of that would
be Brandy Younger, the Harpist,and Deseron Douglas, who is a
bassist.
They're New York basedOriginally.
Brandy's from New York but hasbeen spending more and more time
in Chicago because that iswhere the collaboration is In
fact.
Chicago Jazz Fest this pastLabor Day weekend, mackay
(29:56):
McCraven had a set, brandyYounger had a solo set not truly
solo, but a headlining set.
I should say, and so she spenther whole weekend here in
Chicago and she just comes outfor this stuff because this is
where all the people she playswith are and I think she might.
They made some mention in oneof the concert programs that she
may have actually relocated toChicago at this point.
(30:17):
She also plays at the bandReservoir, which also released
an International Anthem and Iwant to save bookmark for later
because they're representativeof the younger generation that
is coming through for this.
So, mackay, brandy, junius, allthese folks, angel, they're all
in their 30s and 40s.
There's a younger generation,that's 20s and 30s that are
(30:40):
coming through with this kind ofmusic as well.
Also some on InternationalAnthem, some on other labels
like Super Records, which I canget into.
Andrew (30:48):
But it's interesting, it's a multi-generational.
Jenna (30:50):
Multi-generational, but definitely on the younger side,
because we're not talking peoplein their 50s, 60s, 70s, for
example.
Will (30:56):
Well, and it's validating to say like oh, this is
something different and new,because all these people are
gathering here this label isforming, with similar
backgrounds, in their own musicinterests.
Jenna (31:09):
They grew up with hip hop , they grew up with all these
later iterations of music andare now bringing that back to
jazz.
So, very much a younger person'smovement, I would say, and
Makaya is probably the mostestablished of these, since he
moved to Chicago and reallystarted making his name here in
the late 2000s so 2007, beforeInternational Anthem started
(31:31):
worth flagging.
But I think he started pullingall these people into his sphere
compositionally andperformatively and he's also had
, I think, the mostinternational touring experience
.
And that's kind of where we canleapfrog over to London and
that side of the scene, becauseevery time Makaya goes overseas
he's working with ShibakaHutchings.
(31:51):
He's also Shibaka comes here,plays with Makaya.
They've collaborated.
Makaya has this album calledUniversal Beings, which is a
double LP.
Each side of the record isrecorded live in a different
place and on the London sideShibaka is on pretty much every
track with everyone from theLondon scene.
(32:12):
So the London scene is reallyinteresting because the root of
it to me seems to be thisnonprofit program called
Tomorrow's Warriors, which is ajazz education program in London
specifically for disadvantagedand underrepresented youth in
music.
Will (32:32):
I mean, we love public funds for music and arts.
Hell yeah.
Jenna (32:35):
And Tomorrow's Warriors alumni are kind of crazy.
So this program's been goingsince 91.
So, also speaking to theyounger side of things, because
the kinds of innovations thatare coming out of there are not
necessarily going to be informedby something from the 70s and
80s.
This is a relatively new ERRprogram, although 91s, as we
know, not as young as it used tobe.
Andrew (32:56):
Like 32 years ago, right , but?
Jenna (32:59):
in the scheme of jazz, that's fairly recent.
Andrew (33:01):
And a demonstrably successful run, because you
mentioned alumni right.
Jenna (33:04):
Exactly, shibaka Hutchings being one of them.
So the Can we step back?
Will (33:08):
one second too and say who are the main players in this
London scene.
Jenna (33:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I would say much in theway that Makaya is very much
spoke in the wheel or not spoke.
What's the thing?
The axle, the hub, the middlepart.
Will (33:24):
Yeah, I mean the hub.
Jenna (33:26):
Yeah, the hub in the wheel for the Chicago scene.
Shibaka is that for the Londonscene and he is, as we talked
about, the leader sons of KometAlso.
The comet is coming Also verymuch doing his own solo stuff.
Also has just collaborated withanyone and everyone.
Yeah, I was going to say sons ofKomet were involved in that,
hyper-involvedhyper-collaborative and an
(33:47):
alumnus of this program, forwhich he's still mentors, I
believe he is still involved inthe program.
So we have him.
We have a number of otherartists like oh man, I just had
that on top of my tongue.
Well, let me talk about NubiaGarcia then.
First, because Nubia Garcia.
Will (34:08):
A new character.
Centered the wheel.
Jenna (34:09):
Yes Well.
So she's really cool becauseshe's on the younger end of the
spectrum too, so she's in hermid-20s, I want to say.
But she's also a product ofthis Tomorrow's Warriors program
and she actually just won theMercury Prize, which is like the
British Grammys right.
Not Mercury is the British oneright.
Will (34:27):
I am fairly certain.
Jenna (34:28):
Because I always mix it up with the Canadian one.
Will (34:29):
Correction coming if I mess that up, the Canadian one
is ah, damn, the Canadian.
What the hell is the Canadianone?
I always forget the Canadianone.
Yeah, I need to.
Andrew (34:35):
I need to Because one of the artists I followed won.
Will (34:37):
There's an Australian one too that I'd never remember.
Andrew (34:39):
Yeah, stupid Americans.
Jenna (34:42):
But, so Nubia's debut album was called Source and it
came out I want to say 2020.
And immediately won the MercuryPrize for that year, and she's
a saxophone player and it's justalso awesome to talk about a
solo debuting jazz artist.
That's that young.
That's a female identifyingperson Like it's another thing I
appreciate about this movementis it's much more gender and
(35:04):
inclusive, I guess.
Andrew (35:05):
if you were to define this movement not just based on
its musicality, but of all thefactors that kind of make it up.
You're putting good pin marksin like Socially informed.
Jenna (35:15):
Exactly, yeah, expensive in who is participating in it?
Right, right, yeah, and it'sjust all coming from a good
place.
Will (35:23):
Like there's no bad scene or bad influence happening there
.
Jenna (35:27):
And one thing I've seen.
I was reading some articlesjust trying to get into what is
the sea of fidar You've beennamed right and one thing that
came up was hey, look at allthese jazz artists.
There aren't that many peoplein jazz education spaces that
fit into marginalized groupsanymore because they can't
afford it.
And so it was saying the likeacademic.
(35:48):
I'm going to sayacademicization.
Is that a thing?
It should be Right, it is yeah,the making academic of jazz has
boxed out so many people whowould normally be included in a
jazz scene and to some to theeffect of I think the stat they
actually pulled was 5% of peoplein college level.
Jazz programs, like majors, notextracurricular, are identified
(36:11):
as black.
Will (36:12):
Like that's crazy.
Jenna (36:14):
In a scene that is entirely rooted in black culture
like this.
Andrew (36:19):
This is like intersexuality demonstrated
Right right.
Jenna (36:21):
It's exactly that, and so it's cool to see in this Again
named TBD scene that we'redescribing here is very much
rooted in empowering thosevoices and not being exclusive
as far as education.
Will (36:35):
And in.
Jenna (36:35):
London very much the proactive version, where we are
going out of our way to educateyoung people to come up in this
music where there may have beenbarriers before.
And Nubia is a perfect exampleof that.
Her family's from the WestIndies, so this is where you get
some of the West Indiesinfluence as well.
You can hear it in, actually,the title track on her album,
(36:56):
where she brings in a reallyheavy level of dub into it which
is super.
It's a delicious groove.
I have to say that That'll be onthe playlist.
There's heavy dub influences.
Andrew (37:07):
She has one that has come out of London.
For Christ's sake, right, right, you got to.
Jenna (37:12):
And there's a Cumbia track in there too.
It is just it's delicious.
But so she is a great exampleof that program.
Come all Williams, I don'tthink comes from the program,
but he works with all of them.
He's a keyboardist and has alittle bit of that dub and hip
hop incorporation in there andhe's collaborated with Makaya
and he's done all of that.
Andrew (37:33):
Interesting part of this story is the extent to which
opening opportunities to musicalopportunities to people who
generally don't have them ortraditionally wouldn't have them
creates different kinds ofmusic.
Absolutely, yeah Like that's akey, like you can go into a slot
and turn and create more art,almost in a way, or at least
(37:55):
functionally allow it to happenand allow people to organize and
then do their thing.
But I think I think that's anextremely powerful statement To
describe this post jazz.
To describe it without thatwould be to missing something
key to the story.
Yeah, right, yeah, which I thinkis so cool about it and I think
(38:15):
that's.
I think it's cool that becauseI don't think music and music
and like identity have alwaysbeen close, absolutely Like.
But this is kind of areimagining of that.
Jenna (38:25):
It's more proactive.
Andrew (38:26):
Yeah.
Jenna (38:27):
I feel like, and and especially if you're into
Shabaka Hutchings projects thatspeaking of proactively we're
talking about Angel Bataweedearlier.
Shabaka, all of his stuff isvery much proactive and these
are the social messages I'mtrying to send.
Andrew (38:43):
It's not.
It's not implicit, it'sexplicit, it's absolutely
explicit.
Jenna (38:46):
I mean I'm trying to.
There's that one sons andcommit album that I think is the
Queen is a Reptile, no, not.
Andrew (38:52):
The Queen is a.
Jenna (38:53):
Reptile there's.
I'd have to look it up, but itactually says like Black Power
in the album title, like it'svery much in there.
Andrew (39:00):
It's the one after that, yeah.
Jenna (39:01):
Yeah, yeah, and Comet is coming to a little more on the
futurism side, but it's endemic,you know this is part of the
formula, the format change andchange.
Implying that that wasn't therebefore is wrong.
I just mean that the way it'sbeing put forth in the music is
different.
Andrew (39:20):
It's different than it ever has been.
I think so.
Jenna (39:22):
Yeah, in the jazz space, yeah, and capitalizing on, not
in a taking advantage way, butin conjunction with the Black
Power movement.
Lately, black Lives Matter and,I think, just all the social
change we've seen in the last 10, 15, 20 years it's the ways in
(39:42):
which it is being expressed havechanged.
Andrew (39:44):
Interesting.
Jenna (39:45):
And it's really cool to see and also powerful.
It's really intense.
Some of the Sun's a Comet stuff, Angel, Batuid stuff.
It's intense listening Part ofthe reason that I was drawn to.
Andrew (39:55):
that Sun's a Comet album too.
That your Queen is Reptile isthe first one I heard and I was
like wow, this is like seriouslyintense stuff.
I gravitate toward the heavymusic because of the intensity,
in part, just because it's sofor me, like it's so compelling
and it's so novel in that sense.
But I found the same level ofintensity with at least that
(40:17):
album in particular.
Jenna (40:18):
Well, and I think that's why having this be in the jazz
space is so interesting?
Because I'll say, based on mypersonal experience, I'm sure
based on your personalexperience too, like suburban
white people, jazz was easylistening.
Jazz was relaxed music.
Jazz was non-confrontationaland it was never intended to be.
Andrew (40:39):
Like Miles Davis, was never non-confrontational.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Jenna (40:44):
But that's how we took it , because by the time we grew up
, the norms had changed enoughthat that music had been rolled
into the general culturalnarrative and didn't have the
context that it came out inright?
Will (40:56):
Well, in some ways, and in some ways, it was curated to us
that way, sure.
Yeah absolutely when I went toschool.
The jazz station was notoriousfor being overfunded and
underutilized.
It was basically the same groupof rich white people who wanted
to play the same jazz standardsand stuff they wanted to hear.
Jenna (41:13):
Well, and now we're getting back to the academic
barriers to jazz programs too.
It's like white people havekind of stolen this music and
can't kept it, and it's likewhat is happening.
I mean that was activelyhappening with that station.
Will (41:28):
Everyone knew it and everyone was trying to fight it.
It was like you can't.
Yeah, we couldn't change it.
But that's what I like aboutthis too.
Hearing about this is so likeit feels, so intentional, so
passionate.
Jenna (41:40):
And it'll make you uncomfortable and it probably
should.
Will (41:43):
And it just has the authority that it should have.
Yeah, and that's what I likeabout it.
Jenna (41:48):
Well, and authority that no one needs to give it because
it's coming from this place of,like, pure expression.
Plus it fucking slaps.
Andrew (41:57):
Well, we mentioned cutting edge and like it really
like for something to cut anedge these days is not easy.
Jenna (42:03):
You know, in the literal sense of the term.
Andrew (42:05):
I'm not saying like cutting edge, like you know what
I'm saying?
The music itself is like yeah.
Will (42:09):
I mean, I think all these people are at the top of their
game exactly to be doing?
Jenna (42:14):
something innovative in a world where we're inundated
with novelty and innovation issomething and to have it have
that little emotional power andcoming from a place like Chicago
that has such a story andhistory of systemic injustice,
coming from a place like Londonthat also has that and
specifically coming from thatprogram the Tommars Warriors
program you can kind of seethese narratives being built and
(42:37):
these families being built, andso you know, we have kind of
the bridge there with Makaya andShibaka, but there's
surrounding orbits and theartists there.
You get Suido Kench Theon Cross,all over there in the London
scene too, ezra Collective,which is literally a group of
young, recent alumni from thetomorrow Warriors program have
(42:59):
been touring internationally,played Lincoln Hall a few months
ago.
Andrew (43:03):
I saw that part.
That name's familiar, so I sawit on the top of the shot.
Jenna (43:07):
Yeah, it's amazing what the power of this collective
support can do.
And what gets me that, I think,is kind of just mind-blowing
about all of this is the factthat this is coming back into
not a jazz headspace, it iscoming back into a I don't want
to think of like indie heads,but, you know, like the general
(43:28):
music consumer population.
And especially talking about aKamasi Washington to take it
back to LA.
We're talking pop and hip-hop.
People Like Kamasi played, Ithink, lala Palooza.
That's insane.
When have you ever heard of ajazz artist playing Lala Palooza
?
But that's the kind of draw hehas.
He sold out the Riviera Theateronce Like I've seen him live a
(43:49):
couple times.
It's phenomenal.
But the fact that he's able toachieve that level of access
with a general audience,bringing jazz back into the
general cultural narrative andnot just like, oh, that's jazz.
Andrew (44:01):
You know like, oh, that's this thing, it's lost.
It's like academic, likehuh-huh, but it's not lost any
of its like academic, liketalent, or any of its like like
instrumental musicianship, right.
Jenna (44:13):
Well, and I think there's some of the people who want to
make it you know, but it's, itis going past post-jazz.
It is going past jazz to aplace where people who had felt
maybe marginalized by where jazzhas gone recently.
It's bringing them back andthen also, on the Kamasi side of
it, incorporating thoseelements that make it more
(44:35):
musically digestible for peoplewho have been alienated by the
rigidity of treasure.
Will (44:44):
When it speaks to their flexibility of saying like we
understand the pulse, here's howwe're gonna sell this to these
people.
Jenna (44:50):
You know, that's all very intentional too, which is and
the connections back to hip-hoptoo, like you know, getting
Kendrick to guest on a orgetting Kamasi to guest on a
Kendrick track or, you know,teres Martin dinner party.
That is such a greatcollaboration.
It's.
Andrew (45:04):
Teres.
Jenna (45:04):
Martin Kamasi, washington and someone else.
I'm blanking on, but they dolike a combo of trip-hop and
jazz, and it is fantastic.
Will (45:11):
And not just being talented but knowing like these
people will elevate this for meor help me get it on the main
stage Right, and they seek thoseelements out in their music, so
like when they're.
Jenna (45:21):
You know, kendrick to Pimp a Butterfly is an amazing
album but, like some of theguest sax tracks on there, like
bringing in these more abstractelements that aren't just
straight samples, you know, notpulling samples from old funk
tracks but making his ownsamples with Kamasi.
It's just.
It's so cool to see andbringing what I feel weird to
(45:43):
even call jazz at this point tothis wider audience is
remarkable, and that also callsback to, like, the power and
value of collaboration versuscompetition within you know
those circles and building thosefamilies, you know they've all
gotten farther from buildingthese collectives together.
Will (46:00):
We get better music that way.
Jenna (46:02):
Yeah better art, better outcomes and bringing your
message to a wider audience too,because in some ways so.
There's a very specific trackI'm thinking of.
That is Kamasi.
It's a terrorist Martin track,kamasi guests on it.
There's a couple of otherguests, but it's called Pig Feet
and it was released right after2020.
(46:23):
All that went down with GeorgeFloyd and there's a lot of
graphic sound effects and stuffbut, just having those jazz
elements in there.
I think and this is to speak alittle defamatorily about the
general listening audience ofhip hop, which is to say not
(46:44):
about the listening audience,people who won't listen to hip
hop, let's put it that way yeah,yeah, yeah.
I feel like putting thoseelements in there brings people
in who would normally be likewell, this is a hip hop track.
I'm not going to listen to itbut bringing in the sax,
bringing in the more melodicelements, it suddenly is like oh
, this is art now, this is artnow which I kind of hate.
Andrew (47:05):
You're kind of saying yeah, we know, yeah, yeah.
Will (47:07):
It's unfair, but it's cool that they did that.
Jenna (47:11):
It's unfair, but I think it made people take the song
more seriously.
Maybe if it was a learningmoment, maybe there is some it
made it more impactful, eventhough that's not fair, Right
but I think there was a hearingof the power of that element in
incorporating that and making ithave people realize like, oh no
(47:32):
, this is bigger than just we'redropping this track.
But I think that's also a bigcriticism of people who won't
listen to hip hop.
Will (47:42):
Yeah, I mean, that's a whole other, that's a whole
other kettle of fish but yeah itnever hurts, just to listen to
it.
Andrew (47:48):
No, you won't have to try it out, just to try it out.
Intense tracks, that is anextremely intense track.
Jenna (47:53):
I'll put that on the playlist too but it is yeah,
yeah.
The re-incorporation of, Ithink, these jazz elements to
kind of wake people's brains upand putting them in unfamiliar
juxtaposition sonically alsospeaks to the most element.
Andrew (48:07):
It lends itself perfectly.
Yeah, yeah.
Jenna (48:11):
And it brings in new audiences, and I think that's
worth exploring for sure.
Andrew (48:16):
I do like.
Specifically I mean referencingsons of Komet, but I guess
without much more knowledgebeyond that, and just going off
of what you were saying too, Ithink this music is like.
I hope it.
I hope what happens here withjazz and whatever else is
flowing into this happens inother spaces, right?
Will (48:34):
Yeah.
Andrew (48:35):
Like if you take you, if you, if you kind of blueprint
this and kind of apply itsomewhere else, like what would
that look like?
Right, Like what could whatcould reimagined sort of like
rock be like in this way?
Jenna (48:47):
I was thinking like in any rock, if that's still even a
thing, absolutely needs thatwake up call.
Andrew (48:52):
As you were talking, I kept thinking like bands like
this are why people say rock iskind of dying.
Yeah, because this is a littlebit more you can't say more
interesting or more compelling,but this sort of is like it's
fresher, it's newer.
It's it's more intentional.
It has more to say yeah.
It has more to say yeah.
Jenna (49:11):
I think, I think, when you're thinking about indie rock
, because I was trying to draw aparallel and my only thought
was well, there's the bigre-incorporation of, like
electronic influences into that.
Andrew (49:20):
But I'd say I think it's still rock.
Jenna (49:21):
The vast majority of those bands don't have anything
to say.
They just want to be there andhave a good time.
Will (49:25):
And there's something for that.
Jenna (49:27):
But if we're talking about a re-invigoration, I mean
coming into a musicalexploration place with
intentionality, with a sense ofcommunity, and I think that's a
big part of it too is justthere's a very strong spirit of
community and collaboration hereis going to naturally be more
innovative than we're just doingthis to come around and it
(49:51):
always produces a better productLike when rock has had moments
like that.
Will (49:56):
It's always been because, like, a bunch of people were in
a similar area collaborating andmaking better music, like all
the New York scene stuff, allthe like stuff out of LA, like
you know that's happened in thepast 10-20 years.
Jenna (50:08):
Yeah, like DFA was all just friends.
Will (50:10):
Yeah, I mean DFA the Strokes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, as all thatstuff came out of the same
crucible.
Jenna (50:14):
Well and to kind of speak to the younger people side of
this reservoir that Bandaimentioned earlier and also
International Anthem.
But this is very much a bandthat is a group of friends and
it's Will Miller who was thebrass person for Whitney, with
Sema Cunningham, macy Stewartfrom Phenom, ohm.
(50:34):
This is like all Chicago indiescene people.
Brandy Younger actually guessedit.
On this album They've got allsorts of different collaborators
from other labels.
They're all the same age andthey just put out this beautiful
through composed album.
That's a bunch of peopleriffing off of each other and to
see it live was amazing.
(50:54):
It's where you start to get thebleed over to Super Records,
send More Moto, who also playsX-Felmety Raps too, so he has,
like some.
There's hip hop crossover there.
Andrew (51:04):
So if you were to start to dive into this, start with
the like Chicago London scene,the older, like the older
generation of people doing this,and then to cut even more of an
edge, you're saying like theyounger kids these days or like
kind of doing.
Jenna (51:17):
Yeah, I mean, it depends on how you're defining the edge.
Andrew (51:20):
I suppose I'd say a lot of the Further removed from jazz
.
Jenna (51:24):
That's true.
It's also more accessible.
I would say the reservoir stuff.
It's more on the Kamasi side ofthe spectrum where it's further
removed from jazz, but it'staking the elements of jazz into
a more universal space, which Ithink is maybe even more
interesting than just likereally driving deep on the angle
(51:45):
of jazz there.
Kamasi's thing, I feel like, isthe most pop version of this
trend.
I'm describing to a point whereyou can hear almost like Bert
Backerach level cinematic pop,orchestral influences.
Reservoir has a lot of that butthey're taking the instrumental
, orchestral collaborativetechnicality of the Makaya of
(52:08):
the Shibaka groups that Kamasiis really.
He has a lot of that but he'svery more focused on like a solo
sound.
This feels more collaborative,more group effort.
Andrew (52:18):
It's good that these intracene dynamics exist this
early on.
Jenna (52:22):
Yeah.
Andrew (52:22):
It's good yeah.
Jenna (52:23):
And it all feels just.
There's a beautiful melodicharmony of it that feels
ritualistic when you listen toit.
This is where?
Andrew (52:32):
Yeah, this is definitely jazz removal territory but it's
like this overarchingatmosphere or like almost
pantomime to the whole album,especially when you
compartmentalize at least allthis music in the album format,
like these albums can tell astory through and through, like
you said, not just collectionsof songs and riffs and kind of
just.
It's cinematic yeah it is ait's totally cinema.
Jenna (52:54):
Yeah.
Andrew (52:54):
And, oh man, this is why I love certain types of heavy
metal.
There's exactly the samecinematic application to other
styles of music too, even in theheavy metal scene.
Me personally, I'm drawn verymuch to that.
Jenna (53:09):
Absolutely.
And the amazing thing about allof this is I don't know where
the culmination is.
I don't know, it's stillknowing.
Andrew (53:16):
That's the exciting part .
I know, right, I'm like it'sgonna keep building.
This is why music is stillexciting, yeah, and I don't know
where the road's gonna take us,but it's gonna be a fascinating
journey.
Will (53:25):
The road came not to know the road's gonna take us right
into the comment section below.
Get in the comment.
Andrew (53:32):
And the description where we're gonna link and
obviously itemize some links foryou a playlist blog code.
Jenna (53:36):
Yeah, oh, I already have such a long playlist, don't even
worry.
So yeah, to check out the blog.
Andrew (53:41):
That's why To actually hear with your ears what we are
talking about.
Of course, it will certainlyhelp.
Jenna (53:45):
Yeah, I know we're throwing a lot of proper nouns
and names at you in a lot ofdescriptive terms, but listen to
the playlist, tell us yourthoughts If you have a better
name than post-Jazz for what weare talking about, please tell
us because.
I don't want to call itpost-Jazz.
Will (54:00):
Well, it's gonna save.
What do we have Like top threehere?
Jenna (54:03):
Oh boy, I thought of a couple.
Okay, what you got.
Will (54:06):
Universal Jazz, transatlantic Jazz these are
actually not bad.
I don't know if they're right,but they're what they've got.
Universal might be too general.
Andrew (54:15):
Transatlantic Maybe like a little bit.
Jenna (54:18):
Transatlantic sounds mid-century to me.
Andrew (54:20):
Also, isn't the old timey type of speech?
Jenna (54:24):
in the 50s movies.
This is like I know.
Andrew (54:26):
I can't do it, it's crazy Transatlantic.
Will (54:28):
Yeah, it's a transatlantic action.
Andrew (54:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's hard.
Yeah, the post-Jazz, I think,is it's tough not to crack it's
unfortunately, like the way itimmediately brings your brain to
it.
Jenna (54:40):
Yeah, I want to say something with cinematic, but it
just sounds shitty.
Yeah it really does.
Will (54:44):
It sounds like something you don't want to listen to.
Post-punk, ruined post-hyphen,anything.
I just can't do that when I'mgoing to work.
I mean, I think whatever genrethat gets settled on will not be
super interesting.
Jenna (54:55):
After-jazz that almost sounds better because it's more
intense After-Jazz.
Or like dystopian but it's notdystopian.
Andrew (55:03):
It's utopian, it's more like trip-hop.
Will (55:05):
That's a good one.
Jenna (55:06):
Trip-hop is a good one.
Anyway, we'll puzzle on it.
Andrew (55:09):
Yeah, anyway, I like comment, subscribe whatever you
need to do to say hey, we'llhave everything for you in the
description and enjoy thecomment section.
Cheers, it was FinChenna,Thanks for making it out.
Thank you.
Woo hey man whatcha doin' bymyself I find city walk boys a
hey man Whatcha doin' by myselfa snack.
Will (55:31):
I say hey man, whatcha doin' by myself?
I believe that it's city walkboys a hey man, whatcha doin' by
myself a snack.
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