March 10, 2024 • 45 mins
Have you ever found yourself lost in a song about love, feeling every note resonate with your own experiences? Today's episode traverses the emotional landscape of love in music, highlighting its presence across genres, including the powerful tribute within a death metal album honoring a lost companion. We share stories that illuminate the depth of love's expression in songwriting, acknowledging how the dance of love and loss captivates artists and audiences alike. We'll wrestle with the question: Can we truly grasp the profundity of love without the sting of its potential absence?
It's been said that the most haunting art often stems from a place of heartache. As we navigate the delicate interplay between creativity and mental health, we delve into whether this pain is an indispensable muse for crafting poignant music. The episode offers a candid look at how music can act as a balm for the soul or amplify our inner turmoil, and we discuss the misconceptions surrounding the necessity of suffering for artistic brilliance. With insights on how even the darkest of genres can be a source of healing, we invite listeners on a journey through the complexities of emotional expression in the arts.
Marking life's most significant moments, music stands as an unwavering companion through joyous celebrations and times of mourning. We reflect on the cathartic power of music in articulating the nuances of love and loss, pondering whether any art form rivals its capacity to capture the essence of our emotions. From a metal album dedicated to a departed friend to the pivotal songs that define a wedding, we unravel the threads of love, loss, and the music that helps us cope, connect, and ultimately, comprehend the expansive nature of the human heart. Join us as we embrace the melodies that bind us in our shared humanity.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I bet you, I bet you, I bet all of you, that if you
asked 100 people what most musicwas written about, or at least
what the most music kind ofshares in common, maybe, like
100 people, maybe 60, 75, 70, 75of them would say the same
thing.
It's the big L word.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Love.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah.
The New York sign it's thehorrible one Don't say that word
, Four letter words, very bad onthe show.
But love, we all can say it, weall can experience it, we all
can feel it.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
But yeah, it's a human experience.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
None of us can really put words to it.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I think that's what's so appealing about it is that
it's uncapsurable, to somedegree like the concept of it.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yes, absolutely like, especially with words or
speaking.
Sometimes it feels so like.
Sometimes it feels so like weakto like, try to use words or
even poetry to describe love,although many attempts have been
made and some are very,actually probably pretty good.
But music is a differentlanguage, it's a different like,
it comes at you differently,right?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, it evokes strong feelings.
It evokes emotions more easily.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah it's a good medium for expressing that, yeah
, people let it, and it does.
Yeah.
And so maybe it's no surprisethat love makes its rounds.
Yeah, throughout all music sad,happy.
It can't be about love.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
And intrinsically I think there are a huge amount of
love songs, but also tied inwith that is the loss, like
songs about loss.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So would you put it like if I say that most people
would say that most music isprobably written about love, or
the most music that is writtenabout something in particular,
it's probably love?
Would you say that, yes, likelove as it relates to loss is
the next most popular thing, oris there's more?
(02:22):
I think there's more sad lovesongs than happy ones.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, that's an interesting point.
Yeah, I think it's more thatthere are probably like I wonder
what the runner ups to love are.
Like I think loss would be oneof them and yeah, I think you're
right, like a good portion thatlove group would tie in with
loss because, it is so like,like I said, intrinsically
(02:46):
related.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, and also I want to ask the question can you
like, can you truly love untilyou have lost?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Right, and the idea of like finding true love to is
like that you have hadexperiences where you've lost.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You know right, right , like a lot of experiences
somehow define the context thatreal love actually exists in.
Yeah.
Yeah, and music is almost ananalog for this, which I find
insane.
Yeah, it's like it's us likerepresenting this, but in an
artistic way, and the fact thata lot you could at least say a
(03:20):
lot of music is written aboutlove, right, oh?
Yeah, it's not the most, if notthe bad, a lot of it is that
it's interesting that somethingso indefinable is so important,
right?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, I mean from a human perspective.
Again it makes sense Like it'sa big part of our lives.
Yeah.
And something that everyonekind of strives for, I think, at
some point or another and someway or another or at least is
told to strive for.
Right, and I think that's wherepopular culture and things get
muddled.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
where right that's when sociology happens and
things get complicated, right?
Yeah.
I don't want to exclude anyonewho is uninterested in love or
perhaps doesn't seek it like youare valid right, like that's a
valid perspective.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
But if you take the look at the day.
There's a look at the world.
Everyone is obsessed with love.
Yeah, there's a ton of materialabout it.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah so and we have experiences on work humans Most.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, I mean.
A lot of my favorite songs arelove songs, it's true.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I wouldn't say A lot of the music I listen to
actually isn't about love.
Yeah, that's also aninteresting perspective.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I just realized this coming from the metal side of
things.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, it will specifically death in black
metal is, I guess, not to saythat it doesn't exist, because
it certainly does, but most ofit's not.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Do you have any examples of?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
human love, like love for another human or multiple
humans.
There might be love for outerspace, but I mean I think that
counts.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Like we're just talking about love here in
general.
Do you have any examples ofsome metal music or something
that?
Is a love song Is a love songor like you could put in that
bucket, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yes, so I'm just personally curious yeah actually
there is a he's not popular,like he won't be upset to know
that he's not like Lamb of Godor Slipknot Right, but he
releases albums on band camp Ithink he signed.
He might just be independentSolo instrumentalists,
(05:25):
guitarists.
He does the drums and bass andthe vocals, but I believe I
don't.
Please someone do the research,correct me if I'm wrong.
His girlfriend died at a youngage, like they were in their 20s
, early 20s, and then he wrotemusic dedicated to his love for
her and her passing, to honorher, her memory, and actually he
(05:48):
wrote these really compellinglike very technical, very
progressive death metal albumswith a lot of black metal
influences as well.
I guess I'd call them progmetal.
Definitely.
It's definitely prog metal, butit has an edge, has a bite and
it's very like.
I love you.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Would you say the content leans like balladly, or
is it like kind of just hisexpression of his love for her?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I would say like half expression, half abstract, like
sort of ballad is a good word.
Yeah, not that he writes likeclassic ballads, but you feel in
a very like I've listened to abunch of ballads moment after
hearing this album, or is atleast his first one which was
written specifically about herpassing.
But it's interesting that hewrote such a technically
(06:35):
compelling and very like oh,that's impressive.
Album.
That's also very emotionallypoignant and obviously written
like.
Actually it's one of the fewalbums that I have in my library
where I know was writtenauthentically, meaning.
I know it was, I know without ashadow of it out.
I don't doubt in one second inmy mind that it was all anything
(06:58):
was for show.
He wrote this album because heloved this album.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, he just had to make it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, Like, and to say that there aren't like a ton
of albums in my library thatcan live up to that.
You know, I guess that justcomes out of.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I guess the good news is there's plenty out there.
There is, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I could probably have lots to discover and learn
about love music, music aboutlove and ultimately loss.
But we always joke that youlisten to like sad time music,
right.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a good chunk of it
that's sadder in nature.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
And I've never been sadder.
I'll speak first.
I've never been sadder in mylife when questions of love have
come up or like, and have beenmixed with experiences that have
set me back right Badexperiences in life and love and
loss and all the things thatmany people are aware of that we
don't want to speak aboutspecifically all the time, but
(07:55):
yeah, there's strong feelings,yeah.
And it's compelling, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't, you know, but Iwonder why it's, why it's?
Well, I guess we could kind oftease out why heavy metal
doesn't have you know, it's hugeblood of love songs and my
(08:15):
indie rock does, or yeah, I meanyeah.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I think there's a technical aspect to it.
I think there's also like aculture aspect to it.
Okay, I bet you, yeah, likesome of, I mean, some of my best
examples of love songs are fromeither indie music from my era
of like popular music or, like IMean there's really just a ton
(08:40):
of popular music, but like theones I think of are mine, and
then like 50s, 60s, like thetemptations, like my girl, that
was one of the first kind oflove songs, but it's more like a
teenage bop love song and then,like I mean, the Beach Boys
have some there was, god onlyknows is like probably the one
(09:05):
of the most famous ones, basedon our net song, which was like
from earlier, right, and thosewere just like Kind of formative
songs for me as a person, butthey're been equally powerful.
Ones that are more recent, likethe yeah, yeah, yeah has have
that song maps that everyone'sheard, which that's a good
(09:27):
example of a song where Ibelieve, if I remember my music
history right, it came togetherpretty quickly.
Yeah.
Like.
It's a really interesting anddynamic song and people have
already borrowed from it, evenin the years since it's been out
, yeah, but it kind of felltogether, yeah, yeah and there
are a ton of examples of wherethat's not true, like I Mean
(09:51):
another good example of like aindie song that probably a lot
of people have heard but it'snot like it was a labor of love
to make these songs.
As the magnetic fields, yeah,they had this huge compendium of
69 love songs 69 nice but theone of the major hits in there
(10:12):
was the book of love, which isin a bunch of movies and shows
for a while.
Okay, stephen Merritt, the likesinger for that band, is really
like dramatic and has all thesegood like kind of cues for
making like theatrical typemusic and he has a really deep
voice and so it all adds up tolike, like, I guess, a powerful
(10:33):
expression of it's a powerfulfeeling, yeah, and that leads
people to do powerful things.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I think it makes me and you talking about this makes
me think like is Is the bestmusic about love written in
those you know when you're in.
You know when you're in momentswhere you're love sick or
heartbroken, and like everythingis the worst and everything
sucks except for Ben and Jerry's.
You like, yeah, I did that's agood point, the, the, the bottom
(11:01):
of the.
Well, and then things startcoming back up right as time
goes on.
But when you're at the bottom,is that where the best Music
would come from.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
I mean, I think a lot of love good love songs are
written when Someone is lovesick and not not in love yeah,
which is interesting.
Yeah, because I mean thenyou're like, okay, well, what?
I mean I guess you're justhappy and don't it care to Put
your energy into the song.
Rather, yeah, you want to putit into a person, yeah, but yeah
(11:33):
, I wonder if that's like atrend, like that'd be an
interesting thing to like kindof pull artists on.
Be like Do you write your bestlove songs?
Yeah best in like numbers.
That's the thing is like.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
It's an interesting question because it's actually
studyable.
You could probably figure itout.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, no, they'd be a good study around that.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, well, if you know, let us know, if any of you
in academic music research andyou can say oh yeah, we've done
that.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Because I want to read that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, and I think I mean we can make a lot
of guesses, but I think it'sfair to say that.
I think you have energy whenyou're love sick.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, love song, yeah .
I think the hard part isplugging those two things
together right.
Channeling the sickness,channeling that like I need ice
cream immediately and I need tocry and I need, like so much to
change and be different in life.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Channeling that energy into creation is I don't
blame anyone for not being ableto do it this is not a time it's
not possible, at the time whenI mean, yeah, that's a Quite a
state to be in, yeah, so I meanthat's kind of.
The other side of this wholetopic is, like, you know, love
songs are great but like, whatis the mental cost of like love
(12:44):
and like our love song isactually good for people who
want to hear them?
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
This is getting insane.
I mean, there's just a lot oflike facets to it.
Yeah a weird Thing to likebecause you just asked the
question Do you feel betterafter listening to a sad, like,
let's say, a song about loss,during a moment of great loss or
love Sickness or heart sicknessor whatever it is Like.
Does that actually make youfeel better?
(13:11):
Yeah or do you just want more?
of that and like not just yeah,like not just catharsis, but
like Actual, cute, like healing.
I mean, yeah, the experience ofmusic and listening to his
healing.
But are you, are you just liketeasing at the sore wound when
you Listen to music aboutexactly what you're feeling?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I don't know, yeah, no, and I think it's yeah nuance
to that way.
Yeah, like.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
So nuance that I guess you could even be deluded
into thinking that, even if it'snot true, or the vice versa.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, one, I mean yeah as we're saying this to him
, thinking of another example oflike yeah, where Great kind of
love loss made a record likeJulia Jacqueline.
She's a New Zealand Singerwho's come into a lot of
people's minds with songs lately.
Yeah she's had a good career,but her first record was written
(14:08):
After, after she did this verylike kind of Swept up in the in
the moment thing where she movedfrom Australia to London to
like live with this guy.
Didn't go well, you know burqa,but she wrote her first record
out of all that, oh yeah youknow the story kind of and yeah,
the story, yeah, but it wasalso like she probably wouldn't
(14:28):
have made that record had thatthat not gone.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
That's the way it did and I bet you and my estimation
is that if that record landedin the Record player of one
person that happened to listento it and say to themselves, wow
, this person feels what I feel,I don't feel alone anymore.
I would say that artist, thatartist effort, has already had a
(14:52):
bigger positive impact on theworld, and I think most people
can even imagine.
Well, I think that did happenand I think exactly, it happened
over and over Mm-hmm.
I guess what I wonder isanswered our question Would she
have?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
made that record and had that gone well, that
relationship right.
Or like what she may have made,a good as good a record.
It's kind of the you get intothe conversation of like Do
artists needs needs?
Do artists need to be in painto make good art right?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Right, that's okay.
That's the big over, that's thebig umbrella question, and I
know that's been asked manytimes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, steering liketo not like open up that debate
, as it's probably been done in,like so many conversations.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah, and I mean like but it is relevant, it's not
good to be in pain, so I'm notgonna argue.
Put outside of it.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, we're never gonna say like you need to,
intentionally putting yourselfinto suffering to generate an
artistic result.
I've always been like I gottalook into that further to really
question if that's good or not.
Yeah because there can be anartistic way to maybe do it.
But I don't think that seekingwhat other people seek to avoid,
(16:01):
just to experience it, just tomake art about it, is
necessarily the right pattern.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
We're getting your mind set into a place where you
think you need to do something.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, to make good art.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's detrimental to you.
Plenty of.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Cutting-edge art and amazing music has been made, and
by people who are extremelysatisfied and happy.
I mean not everyone's perfect,but people who are, we may say
from outside, well adjusted.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah, you don't need to be sick or no mentally unwell
to make good art.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
But when you are sick and mentally unwell, there's
something about music,especially music by people who
are also experiencing Likeanalog or similar.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, thanks, it can be therapeutic, extremely
therapeutic.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
We know, we all know this from experience, right,
yeah, that that effects is, andthat effect has always baffled
me as a metalhead, because I candescribe metal is literally
that that which is like Think oflike horror, as like an analog
for loss, right, loss and horrorkind of bad, like very bottom
(17:05):
of the barrel, negative feelings, and you can be horrified by
loss, and, of course, loss cancause all kinds of horror in
your life, right?
I Just think it's crazy thatyou know, I Can sit there and
listen to music about horrorthat sounds horrible in moments,
in objective way, and has a lotto do with things that are
(17:29):
horror related, and yet all Ifeel is positive, all I feel is
a positive surge or a positivereinvigoration or a
commiseration with it, and itnever fails, it's good every
time and like I think it'ssimilar with that whole genre of
horror Like people who are fansof it are usually very kind
(17:50):
people yeah we know this frompersonal experience and you can
probably do studies on this too.
But we all know the horror nerdsin the metalheads are all
actually pretty aware ofthemselves.
Chill people, I mean, you can'tspeak for everyone.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, but no.
I mean it seems to bring outthe better part of people rather
than what mainstream mediawould have us believe which is
that it incites horror andincites violence.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
It's almost like the opposite is true from your
intuition.
And this is a big learningpoint, because you start talking
about intuition, love and doingopposite things from what you
normally do and you're alreadydescribing the hell worlds of
many people who are in love,sickness and in terrible
relationships or dealing withthe loss of attraction, love,
(18:37):
stuff like that.
So I know I can sink peopledown to like the lowest you know
points.
Yes, because suddenly nothingelse is relevant.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Well, that's a good segue into like talking about
loss cause loss songs, likethose sorts of songs like I
think it's culturally moreacceptable to sing about a lot
of things related to like deathand loss in songs, and it is to
even, like, say those things,which is a weird, interesting
(19:08):
thing too, like do you rememberwhen Johnny Cash covered that
Nine Inch Nails song?
Like I hurt myself?
Today, that one Now, I mean Ishould know that.
Forget the title of it, I thinkit was.
I just remember that was thelead hook, but it was like a top
10 MTV song for like a year ortwo.
(19:30):
And it was like just this oldman singing about himself dying
cause it was like towards theend and it like hit, like.
It was like mainstream media,it was like very popular song.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You know what my favorite David Bowie album is
right?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I don't know which one.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
The last one.
Oh yeah, black Star, black Star.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Black.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Star.
We talked about that a lot.
It is, yeah, that album'salmost unlistable it is it's so?
Good, it's so good.
Yeah, in my opinion it iswithout, without him, just like
literally telling you this is mylast album.
I'm dying Right, you hear itand you know it Like.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Well, and him having to do all, like making himself
do all that too, it's likeharrowing to even imagine.
I know, like the one songLazarus, like that was really
good.
Yeah, I get goosebumps.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, just thinking about that album.
I gotta listen to that again.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's one of thosealbums that I'm careful about
touching Cause it yeah.
I like thinking about thatalbum Cause it's really.
It really showcases like andyou mentioned pop and popular
music earlier and it reallyshowcases like maybe the best
(20:48):
love songs are from, I guess,what music files music nerds
would classify as the mostpanable genre, which is pop,
right.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
The most basic, the most popularized, the most
commercial.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I think pop is a good medium for them.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, because like you said.
Definitely the most people knowthem.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Mm-hmm, but, like I said, there are a lot of good,
like smaller ball examples ofreally really great songs that
are well-loved.
Oh yeah, yeah.
But yeah, I think it.
It pop lends itself to thattopic for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So the question becomes like are the best pop
songs always about love?
You can probably find some goodpop songs that aren't but yeah,
but that's more interestingCause.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, they might be, I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Man, this if you are doing any musicology or like
writing a bachelor's paper onlike music and steal our ideas,
like if we're asking questionsthat are actually decent and
haven't been answered, likewrite about them.
Yeah.
If, if, if these are repeatquestions, then call us
uninformed and stupid.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
but yeah, I do want to look up some papers on this
stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah.
People must have written aboutsome of this and that's, and
I'll be honest, I've not reallyI've spent time in my life like
looking at academic and being inacademia, but I mean looking at
academic papers and journalsand publishing peer-reviewed
research and stuff and likesociology related things, yeah,
but I've never stepped intomusicology.
Music has always either been ajournalistic, a photographic or
(22:16):
a like you know, or a what am I?
Consumption experience of justlistening to it.
Right yeah, man, thesequestions are getting big and
complex.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of meat on
these bones.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, that makes me laugh.
I don't know.
I just imagine like thismusical skeleton with all this
meat growing out of them.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Well.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
I'm getting some meat on my bones.
Yeah, that's all there is, Ilove love.
Nah, I like, I don't know.
Love is very complex anddifficult and we haven't even
like, we haven't even etched itmicroscopically or even
nanoscopically.
The surface of things,everyone's experience with love
(23:05):
and, potentially, loss, is likean infinite tapestry of
narratives and stories thatmusic can only highlight or
snapshot once or twice.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, and it's always from a different perspective.
It is, and they're so manydifferent.
I mean just the fact thatpeople at their weddings have
like a song that's powerful byitself, like it's tied into the
feeling and the way we expressourselves through love.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Man, you just lit about 58 million neurons in my
brain.
I've shot weddings for three orfour years, and so I've seen
many couples in their firstsongs.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And you've never thought about it in the context
of music.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I've always thought about the context of the wedding
.
Like it's wedding music.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
No, I mean, that was what context you were in there.
But like outside of that theyhad this whole relationship and
that song is one of theirpillars for why they're there.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I know, isn't there like I don't know.
Tell me if I'm wrong or if it'sjust bad of me.
But is there a cringe responseto like couples in their love
song Like, oh, it's their lovesong, it's so cute.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
It's so like I think it probably has more to do with
the couple than the song.
Yeah, gotcha gotcha.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Well, some songs can be pretty cringey.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, that's true.
Some songs can be prettycringey.
If they are, though, they'rebetter be a good start with it.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah well, maybe it's not irony, Maybe it's like they
really like that song.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Then that's good for them.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
All good for them but should I feel bad for feeling a
little cringe in the middle?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I guess I'm just human right, it's not your love
song.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I'm just human.
Love is a mystery.
It's also a pain in the asssometimes, right.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It feels like something we're stuck with
trying to figure out.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, I don't imagine anyone on their wedding day is
like, wow, love is a pain in theass.
But, sometimes you're upagainst the fact that love
requires work, like you don'tnot only, at least from my
experience.
You have to actively nurture it, like you have as you get older
.
You have to like nurture yourmind and like keep learning,
(25:10):
actively trying and learning.
We're not sponges, as we usedto be.
I think love is the same way itstrengthens over time, but only
when you like give it what itneeds to build those.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I think it's strength , yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Especially between people.
It's like it's not a given.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
No, and nothing is like 100% mesh.
There's no like perfectsymbiosis in the universe, but
not among people, right?
There's always clash, there'salways conflict, there's always
pain, there's always suffering.
No one lives completely perfect, happy lives, and I think, as
that relates to music, we haveto think like I have to think
(25:53):
like at what point does themusic become a I don't know a
burden even?
or like a catchall, or like anempty, like an empty dive into,
into just catharsis, right?
Just like like the ice creamitself on a sad day, right,
(26:19):
Crying in front of the fireplaceor something.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, You're saying like at what point does the
music become?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
more of an enabling bad habits or yeah, yeah, either
that or like.
Can it become an addiction?
Can it become a like, where youput your problems away and then
like they feel resolved becauseyou have some kind of use it as
a way to not deal with it?
Yeah, Like I only mentionedthis I'm not accusing anyone of
(26:46):
this or like saying this is likeI do this.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, I think it's a.
I do this.
I think it's escapism, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Like it is.
I do this and like I'm notashamed to admit it.
It is escapism and I think,even though the music I listen
to is not primarily writtenabout love, all the time, like
you know, like when I am inmoments of pain due to love or
(27:11):
pain from love it's like themusic does does give me the
escape and I search for it and Iwant it.
Then I take it when I want it.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, brings you that comfort.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, and it's hard to resist.
I think some of that comfort isgenuine and some is like just
relieving the pain or just likea Tylenol for it.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I mean, I think that sort of ethos around it relates
more to loss, honestly, cause,like, songs about loss can be
cathartic and bonding in thatsame way.
Yeah, like, especially if it'sabout something like directly
relatable, which a lot of peoplehave songs about, where it's
like a relative or a parent oryou know something that's like,
(27:55):
hey, this is a huge loss andhere's my like tribute to them,
or like my story about them.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
It is.
It is interesting, and I thinkwe've pretty much established
like love and loss are sointertwined, because loss is
defined by, you know, love.
That's now gone, because thetarget of the love is
unfortunately gone too.
Yeah, like loss like to sayloss, you immediately imply love
.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And this relates to another idea we were going to
talk about.
But like nature doesn't likespace, so like when love has
gone, loss fills that space.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yes, we were talking about this off camera just more
casually, and I do think it'simportant to talk about because
it's a good point is like wherethere are gaps and that correct
me if I'm wrong, it's kind ofwhat you're saying where there
are gaps, nature tends to fillit with something.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, if there's a neither role to be filled.
Nature will fill it, whetherit's part of a cell or a spot in
an ecosystem that needs to befilled, or literal space.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, and I think it, I think this that mechanism is
what helps it maintain balanceand thus keeps it continuing.
Yeah, definitely.
Generation after generation,but proliferates, yeah, and you
can extrapolate this to like,not just like cells or biology,
or even the rigorous mechanicsof like atoms and stuff, but
like you can actually talk aboutsoft topics with this logic or
(29:21):
this thought or way of thinking.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Like in that way we just did.
You know, love has gone, lossfills the space.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yeah, Just one perspective, but it what's cool
about all these perspectives isthat you kind of take bits and
pieces from them and you buildthe narrative of your own story,
so to speak.
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, and then understanding the world that you
live in.
Yeah, and that doesn't mean wepurport to be masters, or
anything more than anyone elseon love, but I think that's a
broader goal at least for me, islike to try to build an
understanding of like the worldthat I live in, whether it's
through like projects like thisor my work or my relationships,
(29:58):
like you're trying to buildcontext or at least I am, I
think music and to exactly whatyou said, music exists in all
these levels that you'reidentifying.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Music is there in different ways to help you not
just cope but like make meaningaround this kind of stuff, right
?
Yeah put into like emotionalcontext, maybe some of what you,
Some of what you'reexperiencing but can't really
describe in words, but you havea song that can say it perfectly
Well.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I think that's why music is so strong in these
records because it's such anaccessible way to make meaning
and make meaning that'scommunicable across a lot of
boundaries.
Social meaning yeah socialmeaning but meaning across
cultures.
You know English songs arestill mostly what the world
(30:51):
listens to, and outside of Chinaprobably.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
What are you saying?
Western music has its dominance.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
No, I'm just saying that any person who doesn't
speak English probably haslistened to English songs, okay
gotcha, because they convey thatmeaning or they have that
context without having tounderstand the language.
Right, right, and the reverseis true.
It's just not on a large scale.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, and I think yeah, it's pretty well agreed
that love and loss areuniversals too.
Music's the only.
All these things we are talkingabout are, I think, human
universals, which makes themeasy to talk about because we
all sort of know what we'retalking about, but it makes them
very hard to talk about becauseyou don't want to see what's
coming.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Everyone's experience is different.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, you never want to say someone is doing this or
that or different.
I've never personally one ofthe past judgments in anyone's
love or loss, of course, likewho am I to say what that person
feels?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
No, but I think it's safe to say if you're seeking
love and loss.
Seeking love means acceptingloss.
Yeah.
They are tied together.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Another goddamn good point on fire.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
I mean it's kind of the same point but different
words.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
It restates it in an interesting way is like you are
accepting when you experiencethe feeling of love and you
engage with it and you nurtureit and grow it.
I think we all know the risk ofloss grows greater and greater.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, either you lose the feeling or you lose the
person, like it's not, and thegreater the feeling, the greater
the loss, and it's like anunfair mechanic, right?
Speaker 1 (32:35):
The harder, the more you experience and the better
you put your energy into thisuniversally positive thing that
is love, the bigger the risk isthat the worst thing will happen
, right.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
I don't even know if it's risk.
I think it's just your debtgets bigger, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
That might be a more accurate way to put it.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I don't know, Because maybe you'll get lucky and die
first.
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, we're getting a little karmic maybe.
Yeah.
But that's actually a fairenough perspective.
Honestly, it describes the samething we all observe is that we
willingly enter into thisemotion because the payoffs are
outweigh the risks.
Yeah, and we do that with a lotof things, and I'll say that
(33:20):
about music too.
Yeah, there are risks too, likewe mentioned.
Like you could use it as likean empty escape, right, or just
continued like continueddistraction even and I've done
this myself but I will acceptthat risk or that negative for
all the benefits it provides.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, I'm guilty of doing the same sort of thing too
.
I mean, you don't reallyrealize you're doing it until
you have done it for a while.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, I think it's just totally normal, right, but
it's something I like torecognize about myself and at
least be aware of, because I'myeah, when it comes to just
super strong emotions.
In general, I try to be asaware of how this music is
affecting me, because I don'tever want to be like let astray
(34:10):
or pushed away by music.
I don't think it would do thatto me, but we can use that even
as an analog for love.
Can love ever lead you astray?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I think it can.
I think both things can.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Can what's great and great and great?
We can say that about music orlove.
Suddenly, like even writingmusic, can it take a bad turn?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Oh yeah, I think the answer is definitively yes.
For me, I think again, it goesback to just understanding
context and meaning and what itis you're trying to achieve,
because you can do something fora very long time and then
realize I never should have donethat.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
I guess the question becomes do you spend time
regretting it or do you spendthat time making changes?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I mean, I'd like to say you spend that time making
changes.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, but none of us can do that.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
It's hard I used to say it was a funny catchphrase
like no regrets all the time.
But now I'm like, well, thatprobably sounds foolish, because
if you don't have regrets, younever tried anything.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Whether you dwell on them or not, is another
conversation.
I guess you could have triedmany things and just be that
kind of person that just neverregrets a goddamn thing.
But we're almost getting to apathological sort of thing,
maybe.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I feel like that person is lying to themselves.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, that would be weird if you weren't capable of
feeling regret or were sodeluded that you just never felt
it.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Or if you've never had a choice where it was.
However many choices you hadand you didn't regret any of
them, I've never been put on aroad where one side was always
clearly the right choice.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Well, that's another big goddamn lesson, right?
I guess the decision points areso important.
Right With love.
Do you decide to move in withthe person?
Is it the right time?
I bet you and I've had this toowhere a big moment was coming
(36:22):
up, where something was going tochange in the relationship,
whether this was a teenagerelationship or my 20s or
anything.
I always found music at thepoint that felt so specifically
right for that sort of thing,even though I had nothing to do
with it specifically.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yeah, I always would make playlists for people or
moments.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Of course you got break-up music, and then you
have hook-up music, and then youhave romance music and all the
sub-dramas of both music.
Yeah, we filled it all.
Humans have filled it all out.
Basically, we could sit hereand say that music is just love
and poetry, and we wouldprobably be right.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
There's a song for every scenario.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
And like, yeah, universals, I'm glad they exist
because it proves that, hey,like we probably shouldn't be
blowing each other up you knowwe all, we should focus on the
things that we all kind ofexperience and have in common,
which are very powerful.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah and very like, easy to lean into if we choose
to.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, like it's as easy as listening to a song,
which is probably one of theeasiest things anyone can do is
listen to music.
Yeah.
You just the only action that'srequired is activating the
music.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, tune in and tune out.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, and like I could do that with my voice
right now in smart home.
Yeah, I'm like caught up inthought too at the same time,
like personal experiences withlove and music, because it's
just been so many times wherelove didn't work out or love
(38:09):
seemed like it was working outand then I had the song, I had
the music and it like was veryexciting and very compelling,
whether on the negative scale orthe positive scale, it was very
much loud and present.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, I think love is an emotion is really good at
hijacking you to like feelheightened emotions either way.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, music does the same right.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, but music enhances it in that case, I
think.
Which is a good and a bad thing.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Yeah, you gotta be careful with it.
It's almost like it's potent,it can be potent.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
I mean it's like drugs.
Yeah, a little bit Music isdrugs.
Yeah, drugs is Well music andlove couples, I think are a good
drug.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
We're at minimum.
We're getting into like likedruggy, kind of like feelings in
territory.
Right yeah, we talk about thosethings, and I think the fact
that that is an element of themjust shows how universal these
things are.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yeah, they're not powerful they are.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny we're off camera too.
We were talking about and we'rejust morbid.
I guess we were like we gotonto funerals.
Yeah.
We lost obvious.
And then you asked is there theopposite of love music?
Like if there's wedding music,there's funeral music, but not
(39:26):
funeral music that is chosen foryour funeral, but funeral music
that the deceased had, prior tobeing deceased, chosen
themselves.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Right, like does that happen?
A mix taper song.
I mean, I'm sure it does.
I don't hear about it ascommonly as a wedding song.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I've tweeted about that before, actually years ago.
I've had this fantasy, notfantasy of my own death, but
like fantasy of like forcingpeople at my funeral as a joke
to listen to.
And we have an episode onBellwitch, bellwitch's entire
Murie per album which is like anhour and a half long.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Oh yeah, we did talk about this, cause I remember
saying the song I chose was, orthat I would like would be, the
does like.
This is the day.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
The does.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
this is the day yeah that was a good song for a
funeral.
It's not like too sad or tooupbeat, that's like in between.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I feel like only you would pick that song, because
that song would be perfect foronly you, right Like yeah, it
makes sense for me, I think.
I like that.
That's perfect Cause, like it'sa representation of how you
want people to feel and see you,but also how you truly feel and
see yourself.
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, and it's weird too, cause I don't really listen
to them.
So it's just really that songthat made sense it's gotta be a
good funeral song for me.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Hell yeah, and like to be honest, I can't sit there
and digest an hour and a halflong funeral doom album and
really feel the impact of it IfI'm not in the kind of perfect
mood for it.
And not that I want to be in amood of loss, and not that I
want to catalyze the loss moodsof those at my funeral.
(40:58):
But I do truly want anyone atmy funeral to have to sit and
listen to the whole fuckingthing, cause it's that good and
then I'll be happy.
Then let me go, then put me inthe ground, put the dirt on it
and then walk away.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Those are the terms.
It's all good, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
But listen to that album and I want a tear to get
them down in your face and justfeel it, Cause it's and I was
joking aside and levity asidelike it is a very dead serious
album about friends and lovebetween friends, like genuine
platonic love, is true and realand is good.
They lost a friend and thatalbum is in their honor.
(41:39):
It's about loss, yeah, and it'sabout therefore it's about love
and maybe that's a good point tolike sort of sort of like, I
don't know not bury the hatchet,but plant a seed is like.
I guess planting a seed of liketrying to think edit.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
What's your thought?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Plant a seed of like.
I was trying to say somethingother than the universality of
it.
I'll back up to funeral doomand like so at my funeral, like,
of course, we'll have everyonesuffering both through my loss
(42:32):
but also the song itself.
All joking and levity aside, ittruly is.
It truly is an album about loss, and that is it demonstrates
almost so harrowingly thefeeling of loss, because the
people who wrote that albumexperienced it the loss of a
friend who they loved.
And I think what we canextrapolate from that, of course
(42:56):
, is that, of course, love andloss forever intertwined, and
that these things grow socomplex that we have to start
relying on like things asabstract as music to describe
them.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
And so I guess my question is like can you go
further than music?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Oh, certainly.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm still a littlestuck on that point where I
think someone having a love songat a funeral will be acceptable
, Cause it's like I think it'stotally acceptable.
Yeah, yeah, they still wouldhave felt the same way.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
I think you'd probably get more tears.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Oh yeah it'd probably be more gut wrenching.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Maybe my idea is no good.
Maybe the maybe like thefuneral doom album will just be
a complete non-starter.
I mean everyone will be likeRussian in the bathroom or like
trying to find the concessionsat a funeral.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
The good thing is, you would never know so.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
I would if I was still alive and in my coffin.
Oh, yeah, yeah, fake deathsituation.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yeah, but no, I think music as a whole just having
that power over us, even incelebrations of life like
weddings, and celebrations ofdeath, like funerals, like I
don't know, that's powerful byitself.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
It is, it almost has power before music even wields
its true power.
It's powerful just in thenature of it being about those
things.
Yeah, it's the greatcommunicator it is.
I can't.
I ask the question not to bemaximalist about it, like I can
(44:37):
tend to be because of the heavymetal thing, but what's more is
there?
More Is there like?
Can you eke more feeling out ofsome art?
Depends on the person, but Ithink it's just different.
I think I guess I was gonna saymusic.
It is different.
I think music is an ultimateform, meaning like.
There's no further distillingit, there's no like, and this
(44:57):
comes from someone who is amusic journalist for a decade
and has tried in every sentenceto like come to some truth about
music, but only finds morequestions right.
Näода Club Això.
I bet you, I bet you, I bet all of you, that if you
asked 100 people what most musicwas written about, or at least
what the most music kind ofshares in common, maybe, like
100 people, maybe 60, 75, 70, 75of them would say the same
thing.
It's the big L word.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Love.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah.
The New York sign it's thehorrible one Don't say that word
, Four letter words, very bad onthe show.
But love, we all can say it, weall can experience it, we all
can feel it.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
But yeah, it's a human experience.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
None of us can really put words to it.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I think that's what's so appealing about it is that
it's uncapsurable, to somedegree like the concept of it.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yes, absolutely like, especially with words or
speaking.
Sometimes it feels so like.
Sometimes it feels so like weakto like, try to use words or
even poetry to describe love,although many attempts have been
made and some are very,actually probably pretty good.
But music is a differentlanguage, it's a different like,
it comes at you differently,right?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, it evokes strong feelings.
It evokes emotions more easily.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah it's a good medium for expressing that, yeah
, people let it, and it does.
Yeah.
And so maybe it's no surprisethat love makes its rounds.
Yeah, throughout all music sad,happy.
It can't be about love.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
And intrinsically I think there are a huge amount of
love songs, but also tied inwith that is the loss, like
songs about loss.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So would you put it like if I say that most people
would say that most music isprobably written about love, or
the most music that is writtenabout something in particular,
it's probably love?
Would you say that, yes, likelove as it relates to loss is
the next most popular thing, oris there's more?
(02:22):
I think there's more sad lovesongs than happy ones.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, that's an interesting point.
Yeah, I think it's more thatthere are probably like I wonder
what the runner ups to love are.
Like I think loss would be oneof them and yeah, I think you're
right, like a good portion thatlove group would tie in with
loss because, it is so like,like I said, intrinsically
(02:46):
related.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, and also I want to ask the question can you
like, can you truly love untilyou have lost?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Right, and the idea of like finding true love to is
like that you have hadexperiences where you've lost.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You know right, right , like a lot of experiences
somehow define the context thatreal love actually exists in.
Yeah.
Yeah, and music is almost ananalog for this, which I find
insane.
Yeah, it's like it's us likerepresenting this, but in an
artistic way, and the fact thata lot you could at least say a
(03:20):
lot of music is written aboutlove, right, oh?
Yeah, it's not the most, if notthe bad, a lot of it is that
it's interesting that somethingso indefinable is so important,
right?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, I mean from a human perspective.
Again it makes sense Like it'sa big part of our lives.
Yeah.
And something that everyonekind of strives for, I think, at
some point or another and someway or another or at least is
told to strive for.
Right, and I think that's wherepopular culture and things get
muddled.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
where right that's when sociology happens and
things get complicated, right?
Yeah.
I don't want to exclude anyonewho is uninterested in love or
perhaps doesn't seek it like youare valid right, like that's a
valid perspective.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
But if you take the look at the day.
There's a look at the world.
Everyone is obsessed with love.
Yeah, there's a ton of materialabout it.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah so and we have experiences on work humans Most.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, I mean.
A lot of my favorite songs arelove songs, it's true.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I wouldn't say A lot of the music I listen to
actually isn't about love.
Yeah, that's also aninteresting perspective.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I just realized this coming from the metal side of
things.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, it will specifically death in black
metal is, I guess, not to saythat it doesn't exist, because
it certainly does, but most ofit's not.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Do you have any examples of?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
human love, like love for another human or multiple
humans.
There might be love for outerspace, but I mean I think that
counts.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Like we're just talking about love here in
general.
Do you have any examples ofsome metal music or something
that?
Is a love song Is a love songor like you could put in that
bucket, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yes, so I'm just personally curious yeah actually
there is a he's not popular,like he won't be upset to know
that he's not like Lamb of Godor Slipknot Right, but he
releases albums on band camp Ithink he signed.
He might just be independentSolo instrumentalists,
(05:25):
guitarists.
He does the drums and bass andthe vocals, but I believe I
don't.
Please someone do the research,correct me if I'm wrong.
His girlfriend died at a youngage, like they were in their 20s
, early 20s, and then he wrotemusic dedicated to his love for
her and her passing, to honorher, her memory, and actually he
(05:48):
wrote these really compellinglike very technical, very
progressive death metal albumswith a lot of black metal
influences as well.
I guess I'd call them progmetal.
Definitely.
It's definitely prog metal, butit has an edge, has a bite and
it's very like.
I love you.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Would you say the content leans like balladly, or
is it like kind of just hisexpression of his love for her?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I would say like half expression, half abstract, like
sort of ballad is a good word.
Yeah, not that he writes likeclassic ballads, but you feel in
a very like I've listened to abunch of ballads moment after
hearing this album, or is atleast his first one which was
written specifically about herpassing.
But it's interesting that hewrote such a technically
(06:35):
compelling and very like oh,that's impressive.
Album.
That's also very emotionallypoignant and obviously written
like.
Actually it's one of the fewalbums that I have in my library
where I know was writtenauthentically, meaning.
I know it was, I know without ashadow of it out.
I don't doubt in one second inmy mind that it was all anything
(06:58):
was for show.
He wrote this album because heloved this album.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, he just had to make it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, Like, and to say that there aren't like a ton
of albums in my library thatcan live up to that.
You know, I guess that justcomes out of.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I guess the good news is there's plenty out there.
There is, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I could probably have lots to discover and learn
about love music, music aboutlove and ultimately loss.
But we always joke that youlisten to like sad time music,
right.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a good chunk of it
that's sadder in nature.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
And I've never been sadder.
I'll speak first.
I've never been sadder in mylife when questions of love have
come up or like, and have beenmixed with experiences that have
set me back right Badexperiences in life and love and
loss and all the things thatmany people are aware of that we
don't want to speak aboutspecifically all the time, but
(07:55):
yeah, there's strong feelings,yeah.
And it's compelling, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't, you know, but Iwonder why it's, why it's?
Well, I guess we could kind oftease out why heavy metal
doesn't have you know, it's hugeblood of love songs and my
(08:15):
indie rock does, or yeah, I meanyeah.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I think there's a technical aspect to it.
I think there's also like aculture aspect to it.
Okay, I bet you, yeah, likesome of, I mean, some of my best
examples of love songs are fromeither indie music from my era
of like popular music or, like IMean there's really just a ton
(08:40):
of popular music, but like theones I think of are mine, and
then like 50s, 60s, like thetemptations, like my girl, that
was one of the first kind oflove songs, but it's more like a
teenage bop love song and then,like I mean, the Beach Boys
have some there was, god onlyknows is like probably the one
(09:05):
of the most famous ones, basedon our net song, which was like
from earlier, right, and thosewere just like Kind of formative
songs for me as a person, butthey're been equally powerful.
Ones that are more recent, likethe yeah, yeah, yeah has have
that song maps that everyone'sheard, which that's a good
(09:27):
example of a song where Ibelieve, if I remember my music
history right, it came togetherpretty quickly.
Yeah.
Like.
It's a really interesting anddynamic song and people have
already borrowed from it, evenin the years since it's been out
, yeah, but it kind of felltogether, yeah, yeah and there
are a ton of examples of wherethat's not true, like I Mean
(09:51):
another good example of like aindie song that probably a lot
of people have heard but it'snot like it was a labor of love
to make these songs.
As the magnetic fields, yeah,they had this huge compendium of
69 love songs 69 nice but theone of the major hits in there
(10:12):
was the book of love, which isin a bunch of movies and shows
for a while.
Okay, stephen Merritt, the likesinger for that band, is really
like dramatic and has all thesegood like kind of cues for
making like theatrical typemusic and he has a really deep
voice and so it all adds up tolike, like, I guess, a powerful
(10:33):
expression of it's a powerfulfeeling, yeah, and that leads
people to do powerful things.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I think it makes me and you talking about this makes
me think like is Is the bestmusic about love written in
those you know when you're in.
You know when you're in momentswhere you're love sick or
heartbroken, and like everythingis the worst and everything
sucks except for Ben and Jerry's.
You like, yeah, I did that's agood point, the, the, the bottom
(11:01):
of the.
Well, and then things startcoming back up right as time
goes on.
But when you're at the bottom,is that where the best Music
would come from.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
I mean, I think a lot of love good love songs are
written when Someone is lovesick and not not in love yeah,
which is interesting.
Yeah, because I mean thenyou're like, okay, well, what?
I mean I guess you're justhappy and don't it care to Put
your energy into the song.
Rather, yeah, you want to putit into a person, yeah, but yeah
(11:33):
, I wonder if that's like atrend, like that'd be an
interesting thing to like kindof pull artists on.
Be like Do you write your bestlove songs?
Yeah best in like numbers.
That's the thing is like.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
It's an interesting question because it's actually
studyable.
You could probably figure itout.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, no, they'd be a good study around that.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, well, if you know, let us know, if any of you
in academic music research andyou can say oh yeah, we've done
that.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Because I want to read that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, and I think I mean we can make a lot
of guesses, but I think it'sfair to say that.
I think you have energy whenyou're love sick.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, love song, yeah .
I think the hard part isplugging those two things
together right.
Channeling the sickness,channeling that like I need ice
cream immediately and I need tocry and I need, like so much to
change and be different in life.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Channeling that energy into creation is I don't
blame anyone for not being ableto do it this is not a time it's
not possible, at the time whenI mean, yeah, that's a Quite a
state to be in, yeah, so I meanthat's kind of.
The other side of this wholetopic is, like, you know, love
songs are great but like, whatis the mental cost of like love
(12:44):
and like our love song isactually good for people who
want to hear them?
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
This is getting insane.
I mean, there's just a lot oflike facets to it.
Yeah a weird Thing to likebecause you just asked the
question Do you feel betterafter listening to a sad, like,
let's say, a song about loss,during a moment of great loss or
love Sickness or heart sicknessor whatever it is Like.
Does that actually make youfeel better?
(13:11):
Yeah or do you just want more?
of that and like not just yeah,like not just catharsis, but
like Actual, cute, like healing.
I mean, yeah, the experience ofmusic and listening to his
healing.
But are you, are you just liketeasing at the sore wound when
you Listen to music aboutexactly what you're feeling?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I don't know, yeah, no, and I think it's yeah nuance
to that way.
Yeah, like.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
So nuance that I guess you could even be deluded
into thinking that, even if it'snot true, or the vice versa.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, one, I mean yeah as we're saying this to him
, thinking of another example oflike yeah, where Great kind of
love loss made a record likeJulia Jacqueline.
She's a New Zealand Singerwho's come into a lot of
people's minds with songs lately.
Yeah she's had a good career,but her first record was written
(14:08):
After, after she did this verylike kind of Swept up in the in
the moment thing where she movedfrom Australia to London to
like live with this guy.
Didn't go well, you know burqa,but she wrote her first record
out of all that, oh yeah youknow the story kind of and yeah,
the story, yeah, but it wasalso like she probably wouldn't
(14:28):
have made that record had thatthat not gone.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
That's the way it did and I bet you and my estimation
is that if that record landedin the Record player of one
person that happened to listento it and say to themselves, wow
, this person feels what I feel,I don't feel alone anymore.
I would say that artist, thatartist effort, has already had a
(14:52):
bigger positive impact on theworld, and I think most people
can even imagine.
Well, I think that did happenand I think exactly, it happened
over and over Mm-hmm.
I guess what I wonder isanswered our question Would she
have?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
made that record and had that gone well, that
relationship right.
Or like what she may have made,a good as good a record.
It's kind of the you get intothe conversation of like Do
artists needs needs?
Do artists need to be in painto make good art right?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Right, that's okay.
That's the big over, that's thebig umbrella question, and I
know that's been asked manytimes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, steering liketo not like open up that debate
, as it's probably been done in,like so many conversations.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah, and I mean like but it is relevant, it's not
good to be in pain, so I'm notgonna argue.
Put outside of it.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, we're never gonna say like you need to,
intentionally putting yourselfinto suffering to generate an
artistic result.
I've always been like I gottalook into that further to really
question if that's good or not.
Yeah because there can be anartistic way to maybe do it.
But I don't think that seekingwhat other people seek to avoid,
(16:01):
just to experience it, just tomake art about it, is
necessarily the right pattern.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
We're getting your mind set into a place where you
think you need to do something.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, to make good art.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's detrimental to you.
Plenty of.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Cutting-edge art and amazing music has been made, and
by people who are extremelysatisfied and happy.
I mean not everyone's perfect,but people who are, we may say
from outside, well adjusted.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah, you don't need to be sick or no mentally unwell
to make good art.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
But when you are sick and mentally unwell, there's
something about music,especially music by people who
are also experiencing Likeanalog or similar.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, thanks, it can be therapeutic, extremely
therapeutic.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
We know, we all know this from experience, right,
yeah, that that effects is, andthat effect has always baffled
me as a metalhead, because I candescribe metal is literally
that that which is like Think oflike horror, as like an analog
for loss, right, loss and horrorkind of bad, like very bottom
(17:05):
of the barrel, negative feelings, and you can be horrified by
loss, and, of course, loss cancause all kinds of horror in
your life, right?
I Just think it's crazy thatyou know, I Can sit there and
listen to music about horrorthat sounds horrible in moments,
in objective way, and has a lotto do with things that are
(17:29):
horror related, and yet all Ifeel is positive, all I feel is
a positive surge or a positivereinvigoration or a
commiseration with it, and itnever fails, it's good every
time and like I think it'ssimilar with that whole genre of
horror Like people who are fansof it are usually very kind
(17:50):
people yeah we know this frompersonal experience and you can
probably do studies on this too.
But we all know the horror nerdsin the metalheads are all
actually pretty aware ofthemselves.
Chill people, I mean, you can'tspeak for everyone.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, but no.
I mean it seems to bring outthe better part of people rather
than what mainstream mediawould have us believe which is
that it incites horror andincites violence.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
It's almost like the opposite is true from your
intuition.
And this is a big learningpoint, because you start talking
about intuition, love and doingopposite things from what you
normally do and you're alreadydescribing the hell worlds of
many people who are in love,sickness and in terrible
relationships or dealing withthe loss of attraction, love,
(18:37):
stuff like that.
So I know I can sink peopledown to like the lowest you know
points.
Yes, because suddenly nothingelse is relevant.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Well, that's a good segue into like talking about
loss cause loss songs, likethose sorts of songs like I
think it's culturally moreacceptable to sing about a lot
of things related to like deathand loss in songs, and it is to
even, like, say those things,which is a weird, interesting
(19:08):
thing too, like do you rememberwhen Johnny Cash covered that
Nine Inch Nails song?
Like I hurt myself?
Today, that one Now, I mean Ishould know that.
Forget the title of it, I thinkit was.
I just remember that was thelead hook, but it was like a top
10 MTV song for like a year ortwo.
(19:30):
And it was like just this oldman singing about himself dying
cause it was like towards theend and it like hit, like.
It was like mainstream media,it was like very popular song.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You know what my favorite David Bowie album is
right?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I don't know which one.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
The last one.
Oh yeah, black Star, black Star.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Black.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Star.
We talked about that a lot.
It is, yeah, that album'salmost unlistable it is it's so?
Good, it's so good.
Yeah, in my opinion it iswithout, without him, just like
literally telling you this is mylast album.
I'm dying Right, you hear itand you know it Like.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Well, and him having to do all, like making himself
do all that too, it's likeharrowing to even imagine.
I know, like the one songLazarus, like that was really
good.
Yeah, I get goosebumps.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, just thinking about that album.
I gotta listen to that again.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's one of thosealbums that I'm careful about
touching Cause it yeah.
I like thinking about thatalbum Cause it's really.
It really showcases like andyou mentioned pop and popular
music earlier and it reallyshowcases like maybe the best
(20:48):
love songs are from, I guess,what music files music nerds
would classify as the mostpanable genre, which is pop,
right.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
The most basic, the most popularized, the most
commercial.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I think pop is a good medium for them.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, because like you said.
Definitely the most people knowthem.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Mm-hmm, but, like I said, there are a lot of good,
like smaller ball examples ofreally really great songs that
are well-loved.
Oh yeah, yeah.
But yeah, I think it.
It pop lends itself to thattopic for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So the question becomes like are the best pop
songs always about love?
You can probably find some goodpop songs that aren't but yeah,
but that's more interestingCause.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, they might be, I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Man, this if you are doing any musicology or like
writing a bachelor's paper onlike music and steal our ideas,
like if we're asking questionsthat are actually decent and
haven't been answered, likewrite about them.
Yeah.
If, if, if these are repeatquestions, then call us
uninformed and stupid.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
but yeah, I do want to look up some papers on this
stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah.
People must have written aboutsome of this and that's, and
I'll be honest, I've not reallyI've spent time in my life like
looking at academic and being inacademia, but I mean looking at
academic papers and journalsand publishing peer-reviewed
research and stuff and likesociology related things, yeah,
but I've never stepped intomusicology.
Music has always either been ajournalistic, a photographic or
(22:16):
a like you know, or a what am I?
Consumption experience of justlistening to it.
Right yeah, man, thesequestions are getting big and
complex.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of meat on
these bones.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, that makes me laugh.
I don't know.
I just imagine like thismusical skeleton with all this
meat growing out of them.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Well.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
I'm getting some meat on my bones.
Yeah, that's all there is, Ilove love.
Nah, I like, I don't know.
Love is very complex anddifficult and we haven't even
like, we haven't even etched itmicroscopically or even
nanoscopically.
The surface of things,everyone's experience with love
(23:05):
and, potentially, loss, is likean infinite tapestry of
narratives and stories thatmusic can only highlight or
snapshot once or twice.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, and it's always from a different perspective.
It is, and they're so manydifferent.
I mean just the fact thatpeople at their weddings have
like a song that's powerful byitself, like it's tied into the
feeling and the way we expressourselves through love.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Man, you just lit about 58 million neurons in my
brain.
I've shot weddings for three orfour years, and so I've seen
many couples in their firstsongs.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And you've never thought about it in the context
of music.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I've always thought about the context of the wedding
.
Like it's wedding music.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
No, I mean, that was what context you were in there.
But like outside of that theyhad this whole relationship and
that song is one of theirpillars for why they're there.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I know, isn't there like I don't know.
Tell me if I'm wrong or if it'sjust bad of me.
But is there a cringe responseto like couples in their love
song Like, oh, it's their lovesong, it's so cute.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
It's so like I think it probably has more to do with
the couple than the song.
Yeah, gotcha gotcha.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Well, some songs can be pretty cringey.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, that's true.
Some songs can be prettycringey.
If they are, though, they'rebetter be a good start with it.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah well, maybe it's not irony, Maybe it's like they
really like that song.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Then that's good for them.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
All good for them but should I feel bad for feeling a
little cringe in the middle?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I guess I'm just human right, it's not your love
song.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I'm just human.
Love is a mystery.
It's also a pain in the asssometimes, right.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It feels like something we're stuck with
trying to figure out.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, I don't imagine anyone on their wedding day is
like, wow, love is a pain in theass.
But, sometimes you're upagainst the fact that love
requires work, like you don'tnot only, at least from my
experience.
You have to actively nurture it, like you have as you get older
.
You have to like nurture yourmind and like keep learning,
(25:10):
actively trying and learning.
We're not sponges, as we usedto be.
I think love is the same way itstrengthens over time, but only
when you like give it what itneeds to build those.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I think it's strength , yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Especially between people.
It's like it's not a given.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
No, and nothing is like 100% mesh.
There's no like perfectsymbiosis in the universe, but
not among people, right?
There's always clash, there'salways conflict, there's always
pain, there's always suffering.
No one lives completely perfect, happy lives, and I think, as
that relates to music, we haveto think like I have to think
(25:53):
like at what point does themusic become a I don't know a
burden even?
or like a catchall, or like anempty, like an empty dive into,
into just catharsis, right?
Just like like the ice creamitself on a sad day, right,
(26:19):
Crying in front of the fireplaceor something.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, You're saying like at what point does the
music become?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
more of an enabling bad habits or yeah, yeah, either
that or like.
Can it become an addiction?
Can it become a like, where youput your problems away and then
like they feel resolved becauseyou have some kind of use it as
a way to not deal with it?
Yeah, Like I only mentionedthis I'm not accusing anyone of
(26:46):
this or like saying this is likeI do this.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, I think it's a.
I do this.
I think it's escapism, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Like it is.
I do this and like I'm notashamed to admit it.
It is escapism and I think,even though the music I listen
to is not primarily writtenabout love, all the time, like
you know, like when I am inmoments of pain due to love or
(27:11):
pain from love it's like themusic does does give me the
escape and I search for it and Iwant it.
Then I take it when I want it.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, brings you that comfort.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, and it's hard to resist.
I think some of that comfort isgenuine and some is like just
relieving the pain or just likea Tylenol for it.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I mean, I think that sort of ethos around it relates
more to loss, honestly, cause,like, songs about loss can be
cathartic and bonding in thatsame way.
Yeah, like, especially if it'sabout something like directly
relatable, which a lot of peoplehave songs about, where it's
like a relative or a parent oryou know something that's like,
(27:55):
hey, this is a huge loss andhere's my like tribute to them,
or like my story about them.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
It is.
It is interesting, and I thinkwe've pretty much established
like love and loss are sointertwined, because loss is
defined by, you know, love.
That's now gone, because thetarget of the love is
unfortunately gone too.
Yeah, like loss like to sayloss, you immediately imply love
.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And this relates to another idea we were going to
talk about.
But like nature doesn't likespace, so like when love has
gone, loss fills that space.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yes, we were talking about this off camera just more
casually, and I do think it'simportant to talk about because
it's a good point is like wherethere are gaps and that correct
me if I'm wrong, it's kind ofwhat you're saying where there
are gaps, nature tends to fillit with something.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, if there's a neither role to be filled.
Nature will fill it, whetherit's part of a cell or a spot in
an ecosystem that needs to befilled, or literal space.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, and I think it, I think this that mechanism is
what helps it maintain balanceand thus keeps it continuing.
Yeah, definitely.
Generation after generation,but proliferates, yeah, and you
can extrapolate this to like,not just like cells or biology,
or even the rigorous mechanicsof like atoms and stuff, but
like you can actually talk aboutsoft topics with this logic or
(29:21):
this thought or way of thinking.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Like in that way we just did.
You know, love has gone, lossfills the space.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yeah, Just one perspective, but it what's cool
about all these perspectives isthat you kind of take bits and
pieces from them and you buildthe narrative of your own story,
so to speak.
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, and then understanding the world that you
live in.
Yeah, and that doesn't mean wepurport to be masters, or
anything more than anyone elseon love, but I think that's a
broader goal at least for me, islike to try to build an
understanding of like the worldthat I live in, whether it's
through like projects like thisor my work or my relationships,
(29:58):
like you're trying to buildcontext or at least I am, I
think music and to exactly whatyou said, music exists in all
these levels that you'reidentifying.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Music is there in different ways to help you not
just cope but like make meaningaround this kind of stuff, right
?
Yeah put into like emotionalcontext, maybe some of what you,
Some of what you'reexperiencing but can't really
describe in words, but you havea song that can say it perfectly
Well.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I think that's why music is so strong in these
records because it's such anaccessible way to make meaning
and make meaning that'scommunicable across a lot of
boundaries.
Social meaning yeah socialmeaning but meaning across
cultures.
You know English songs arestill mostly what the world
(30:51):
listens to, and outside of Chinaprobably.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
What are you saying?
Western music has its dominance.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
No, I'm just saying that any person who doesn't
speak English probably haslistened to English songs, okay
gotcha, because they convey thatmeaning or they have that
context without having tounderstand the language.
Right, right, and the reverseis true.
It's just not on a large scale.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, and I think yeah, it's pretty well agreed
that love and loss areuniversals too.
Music's the only.
All these things we are talkingabout are, I think, human
universals, which makes themeasy to talk about because we
all sort of know what we'retalking about, but it makes them
very hard to talk about becauseyou don't want to see what's
coming.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Everyone's experience is different.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, you never want to say someone is doing this or
that or different.
I've never personally one ofthe past judgments in anyone's
love or loss, of course, likewho am I to say what that person
feels?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
No, but I think it's safe to say if you're seeking
love and loss.
Seeking love means acceptingloss.
Yeah.
They are tied together.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Another goddamn good point on fire.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
I mean it's kind of the same point but different
words.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
It restates it in an interesting way is like you are
accepting when you experiencethe feeling of love and you
engage with it and you nurtureit and grow it.
I think we all know the risk ofloss grows greater and greater.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, either you lose the feeling or you lose the
person, like it's not, and thegreater the feeling, the greater
the loss, and it's like anunfair mechanic, right?
Speaker 1 (32:35):
The harder, the more you experience and the better
you put your energy into thisuniversally positive thing that
is love, the bigger the risk isthat the worst thing will happen
, right.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
I don't even know if it's risk.
I think it's just your debtgets bigger, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
That might be a more accurate way to put it.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I don't know, Because maybe you'll get lucky and die
first.
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, we're getting a little karmic maybe.
Yeah.
But that's actually a fairenough perspective.
Honestly, it describes the samething we all observe is that we
willingly enter into thisemotion because the payoffs are
outweigh the risks.
Yeah, and we do that with a lotof things, and I'll say that
(33:20):
about music too.
Yeah, there are risks too, likewe mentioned.
Like you could use it as likean empty escape, right, or just
continued like continueddistraction even and I've done
this myself but I will acceptthat risk or that negative for
all the benefits it provides.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, I'm guilty of doing the same sort of thing too
.
I mean, you don't reallyrealize you're doing it until
you have done it for a while.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, I think it's just totally normal, right, but
it's something I like torecognize about myself and at
least be aware of, because I'myeah, when it comes to just
super strong emotions.
In general, I try to be asaware of how this music is
affecting me, because I don'tever want to be like let astray
(34:10):
or pushed away by music.
I don't think it would do thatto me, but we can use that even
as an analog for love.
Can love ever lead you astray?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I think it can.
I think both things can.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Can what's great and great and great?
We can say that about music orlove.
Suddenly, like even writingmusic, can it take a bad turn?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Oh yeah, I think the answer is definitively yes.
For me, I think again, it goesback to just understanding
context and meaning and what itis you're trying to achieve,
because you can do something fora very long time and then
realize I never should have donethat.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
I guess the question becomes do you spend time
regretting it or do you spendthat time making changes?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I mean, I'd like to say you spend that time making
changes.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, but none of us can do that.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
It's hard I used to say it was a funny catchphrase
like no regrets all the time.
But now I'm like, well, thatprobably sounds foolish, because
if you don't have regrets, younever tried anything.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Whether you dwell on them or not, is another
conversation.
I guess you could have triedmany things and just be that
kind of person that just neverregrets a goddamn thing.
But we're almost getting to apathological sort of thing,
maybe.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I feel like that person is lying to themselves.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, that would be weird if you weren't capable of
feeling regret or were sodeluded that you just never felt
it.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Or if you've never had a choice where it was.
However many choices you hadand you didn't regret any of
them, I've never been put on aroad where one side was always
clearly the right choice.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Well, that's another big goddamn lesson, right?
I guess the decision points areso important.
Right With love.
Do you decide to move in withthe person?
Is it the right time?
I bet you and I've had this toowhere a big moment was coming
(36:22):
up, where something was going tochange in the relationship,
whether this was a teenagerelationship or my 20s or
anything.
I always found music at thepoint that felt so specifically
right for that sort of thing,even though I had nothing to do
with it specifically.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yeah, I always would make playlists for people or
moments.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Of course you got break-up music, and then you
have hook-up music, and then youhave romance music and all the
sub-dramas of both music.
Yeah, we filled it all.
Humans have filled it all out.
Basically, we could sit hereand say that music is just love
and poetry, and we wouldprobably be right.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
There's a song for every scenario.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
And like, yeah, universals, I'm glad they exist
because it proves that, hey,like we probably shouldn't be
blowing each other up you knowwe all, we should focus on the
things that we all kind ofexperience and have in common,
which are very powerful.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah and very like, easy to lean into if we choose
to.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, like it's as easy as listening to a song,
which is probably one of theeasiest things anyone can do is
listen to music.
Yeah.
You just the only action that'srequired is activating the
music.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, tune in and tune out.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, and like I could do that with my voice
right now in smart home.
Yeah, I'm like caught up inthought too at the same time,
like personal experiences withlove and music, because it's
just been so many times wherelove didn't work out or love
(38:09):
seemed like it was working outand then I had the song, I had
the music and it like was veryexciting and very compelling,
whether on the negative scale orthe positive scale, it was very
much loud and present.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, I think love is an emotion is really good at
hijacking you to like feelheightened emotions either way.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, music does the same right.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, but music enhances it in that case, I
think.
Which is a good and a bad thing.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Yeah, you gotta be careful with it.
It's almost like it's potent,it can be potent.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
I mean it's like drugs.
Yeah, a little bit Music isdrugs.
Yeah, drugs is Well music andlove couples, I think are a good
drug.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
We're at minimum.
We're getting into like likedruggy, kind of like feelings in
territory.
Right yeah, we talk about thosethings, and I think the fact
that that is an element of themjust shows how universal these
things are.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yeah, they're not powerful they are.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny we're off camera too.
We were talking about and we'rejust morbid.
I guess we were like we gotonto funerals.
Yeah.
We lost obvious.
And then you asked is there theopposite of love music?
Like if there's wedding music,there's funeral music, but not
(39:26):
funeral music that is chosen foryour funeral, but funeral music
that the deceased had, prior tobeing deceased, chosen
themselves.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Right, like does that happen?
A mix taper song.
I mean, I'm sure it does.
I don't hear about it ascommonly as a wedding song.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I've tweeted about that before, actually years ago.
I've had this fantasy, notfantasy of my own death, but
like fantasy of like forcingpeople at my funeral as a joke
to listen to.
And we have an episode onBellwitch, bellwitch's entire
Murie per album which is like anhour and a half long.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Oh yeah, we did talk about this, cause I remember
saying the song I chose was, orthat I would like would be, the
does like.
This is the day.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
The does.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
this is the day yeah that was a good song for a
funeral.
It's not like too sad or tooupbeat, that's like in between.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I feel like only you would pick that song, because
that song would be perfect foronly you, right Like yeah, it
makes sense for me, I think.
I like that.
That's perfect Cause, like it'sa representation of how you
want people to feel and see you,but also how you truly feel and
see yourself.
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, and it's weird too, cause I don't really listen
to them.
So it's just really that songthat made sense it's gotta be a
good funeral song for me.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Hell yeah, and like to be honest, I can't sit there
and digest an hour and a halflong funeral doom album and
really feel the impact of it IfI'm not in the kind of perfect
mood for it.
And not that I want to be in amood of loss, and not that I
want to catalyze the loss moodsof those at my funeral.
(40:58):
But I do truly want anyone atmy funeral to have to sit and
listen to the whole fuckingthing, cause it's that good and
then I'll be happy.
Then let me go, then put me inthe ground, put the dirt on it
and then walk away.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Those are the terms.
It's all good, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
But listen to that album and I want a tear to get
them down in your face and justfeel it, Cause it's and I was
joking aside and levity asidelike it is a very dead serious
album about friends and lovebetween friends, like genuine
platonic love, is true and realand is good.
They lost a friend and thatalbum is in their honor.
(41:39):
It's about loss, yeah, and it'sabout therefore it's about love
and maybe that's a good point tolike sort of sort of like, I
don't know not bury the hatchet,but plant a seed is like.
I guess planting a seed of liketrying to think edit.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
What's your thought?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Plant a seed of like.
I was trying to say somethingother than the universality of
it.
I'll back up to funeral doomand like so at my funeral, like,
of course, we'll have everyonesuffering both through my loss
(42:32):
but also the song itself.
All joking and levity aside, ittruly is.
It truly is an album about loss, and that is it demonstrates
almost so harrowingly thefeeling of loss, because the
people who wrote that albumexperienced it the loss of a
friend who they loved.
And I think what we canextrapolate from that, of course
(42:56):
, is that, of course, love andloss forever intertwined, and
that these things grow socomplex that we have to start
relying on like things asabstract as music to describe
them.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
And so I guess my question is like can you go
further than music?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Oh, certainly.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm still a littlestuck on that point where I
think someone having a love songat a funeral will be acceptable
, Cause it's like I think it'stotally acceptable.
Yeah, yeah, they still wouldhave felt the same way.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
I think you'd probably get more tears.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Oh yeah it'd probably be more gut wrenching.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Maybe my idea is no good.
Maybe the maybe like thefuneral doom album will just be
a complete non-starter.
I mean everyone will be likeRussian in the bathroom or like
trying to find the concessionsat a funeral.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
The good thing is, you would never know so.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
I would if I was still alive and in my coffin.
Oh, yeah, yeah, fake deathsituation.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yeah, but no, I think music as a whole just having
that power over us, even incelebrations of life like
weddings, and celebrations ofdeath, like funerals, like I
don't know, that's powerful byitself.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
It is, it almost has power before music even wields
its true power.
It's powerful just in thenature of it being about those
things.
Yeah, it's the greatcommunicator it is.
I can't.
I ask the question not to bemaximalist about it, like I can
(44:37):
tend to be because of the heavymetal thing, but what's more is
there?
More Is there like?
Can you eke more feeling out ofsome art?
Depends on the person, but Ithink it's just different.
I think I guess I was gonna saymusic.
It is different.
I think music is an ultimateform, meaning like.
There's no further distillingit, there's no like, and this
(44:57):
comes from someone who is amusic journalist for a decade
and has tried in every sentenceto like come to some truth about
music, but only finds morequestions right.
Näода Club Això.
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