September 29, 2025 • 31 mins
The latest episode of The Sounds of Film spotlights Ask E. Jean, a powerful new documentary directed by Ivy Meeropol. The film takes viewers on a journey through the extraordinary life of journalist, advice columnist, and cultural icon E. Jean Carroll.
Known for her fearless voice and sharp wit, Carroll has lived a life that reflects both the struggles and triumphs of women redefining their roles in media, culture, and society. The film explores Carroll’s extraordinary career—from her groundbreaking work in journalism to her legal battles against Donald Trump, where she became the only woman to defeat him in court twice.
Ask E. Jean is set to screen at the Hamptons International Film Festival on October 4th at 2:15, and October 5th at 5:00, giving audiences on Long Island the opportunity to experience this compelling portrait on the big screen.
In this episode, host Tom Needham speaks with the director about the making of the film and the inspiration behind bringing such a remarkable story to the screen. The discussion highlights the artistry, challenges, and creative process of telling a story that blends personal history, cultural commentary, and moments of courage.
The Sounds of Film Radio Show is America’s longest running music and film show. For over 35 years, the program has delivered a popular mix of music and interviews to listeners all over Long Island, parts of Connecticut, and streaming worldwide on the internet on WUSB. Past guests include Alec Baldwin, Billy Joel, William H. Macy, Dionne Warwick, Chuck D, Ernest Dickerson, Hal Hartley, Peter Fonda, and Rory Kennedy.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, I'm Tom Needham and you are listening to the sounds of film.
Today we are speaking with Ivy Maripol, the acclaimed director
of Ask E Gene, a new featured documentary about journalist,
advice columnist and cultural icon E Gene Carroll.
The film explores Carol's extraordinary career, from her
(00:21):
groundbreaking work in journalism to her legal battles
against Donald Trump, where she became the only woman to defeat
him in court twice. The film is screening at the
Hamptons International Film Festival on October 5th at 5:00
PM. Thank you very much, Ivy, for
joining us in The Sounds of Film.
Thank you for having me. Oh yeah, very interesting
(00:44):
documentary. Can you tell me why you chose to
to make a film about E Jean Carroll?
Sure. I mean, it's a bit of a long
answer only because it changed over the course of the many
years that I have been working with E Jean on that.
I've been working on the film about E Jean.
(01:05):
So I met her. I reached out to her after she
published the excerpt from her book What Do We Need Men For?
And it was famously published. An excerpt was published on New
York in New York Magazine, and she was on the cover.
And I read that article and I just really wanted to know more
about her. It was, it was.
(01:26):
And I tried to try to explain. It was her, her writers voice
really, that struck me. I didn't know much about her,
but the way she was telling the story of what had happened at
Bergdorf's with Donald Trump, you know, really drew me and not
so much this, you know, I, we'd already heard stories of, of
Donald Trump, of other, other accusers.
(01:49):
And so it really was the way shetold her story.
I just was really intrigued by her.
So I asked my manager to call her her ask her agent, is anyone
doing a film about her? And it went from there.
I've many other film makers wereactually trying to go for her.
But I that was the original impulse.
(02:10):
The instinct was just I wanted to know more about her because
of how she talked about this, this story.
And as I got to know her and then discovered this incredible
background, you know, that she'sthis acclaimed journalist and
she, you know, she's really a gonzo journalist, you know, in
the Hunter S Thompson style, buteven beyond.
(02:31):
And that she was the first womaneditor at all these major
magazines during the heyday of the magazine world in New York
City. And she had her own show.
So I just that more and more, I just thought, OK, this is this
is someone who, you know, when you're making a documentary,
sometimes you start with an issue.
Sometimes you start with you're struck by an individual.
(02:52):
And in this case, it was, I was just struck by this individual
who became but the story then takes off to become much more
and as about, you know, women inAmerica and the silent, the, the
silent generation and, and how at age 75, she, she found a new
(03:17):
way to talk about her, about herlife and understand her life and
look at her life anew. And so that became another
theme. And then there's, you know, the
friendships between she and her,the two women that she told what
happened that day. And then 25 years later, they
bravely join her, you know, in the trials.
And so I guess what I'm trying to say is it to me, this is a
(03:40):
perfect example of what, how exciting and also terrifying
making documentaries can be where you really are just you,
you have to sometimes just strapon and be like, I'm going along
for this ride and I hope I can take it all the way.
Well, you've made other films about controversial and complex
figures before. Can you just tell our listeners
(04:02):
about some of the other ones you've made just very quickly,
and how this one fits in with those in your opinion?
Oh, sure. OK.
Well, my, my very first film, which got me into this whole
business, was Heir to an Execution, which is briefly,
it's a personal film about my grandparents and my, well, my
(04:23):
father, my uncle and my grandparents who were Ethel and
Julius Rosenberg, who were executed by the US government in
1953 and accused of stealing thesecret of the atom bomb and
sharing it with the Soviet Union.
And so I grew up with the this, this story looming, you know,
over me. It wasn't.
And my father as a young man anda young father came out as a
(04:48):
mirror pole Rosenberg. So that was a big part of my
childhood so that I was grappling with that.
Then I made, then I quickly I wanted to do something very
different. I made a show called The Hill
about a member of Congress and his young staff 'cause that was
something that I did out of college myself.
There's always a personal there's there is always
something personal. Sometimes I'm not as aware of
(05:11):
what it is until later, but I made a film called Indian Point
about the nuclear power plant just outside of New York City,
because I moved to the area and became very intrigued with what
this place that's so controversial and is it as
dangerous as everyone says? And I more recently made a film
(05:32):
about Roy Cohn, which is connected and that that was Roy
Cohn was the assistant prosecutor in my grandparents
case when he was a very young lawyer.
But he went on to become Joe McCarthy's right hand man and
then helped shape our current president.
So he, but he loomed large in my, in my life, But I, I felt it
(05:55):
was really important to tell, tofocus on him as an individual to
help understand what was happening now about, you know,
the way that he operated and theway that he, you know, factored
into the Lavender scare, the Redscare and helped, you know,
(06:15):
promote Trump to believe, help Trump believe even in himself as
a political person. So I guess that what tie it's
hard to say what ties them all together.
I I leave that to other people usually to try to say about me,
but I but I have been thinking about it a lot.
I mean to, to be honest, you know, I think about E Jean in
(06:38):
particular, you know, I mean, I think, you know, people probably
would say that there's, there is, there is a common thread.
You know, I it, I, I want, I guess there's something about
believing someone when they're telling their story, right?
It's a it's, it's EGI wanted to be, I wanted to create something
(07:01):
that when you watch this film, you get to know, EG you're
amazed by hers. Everyone should because she's
incredible. And I mean, I couldn't get
enough of, of, of her as a, as aperson in terms of just her
incredible good humor as she's going through all this too, is
(07:21):
just something very, you know, Ifound incredibly attractive.
And I think it's really important when you're when
you're dealing with such like difficult stories and difficult
experiences. But her sorry, I lost my chain
of thought. I'm talking.
So I, I guess I would say that I, you know, the fact that she
(07:44):
had to face this very angry public and, and a lot of what,
you know, what you see in the film is how when the president
was defaming her, he activated alot of his really less savory
(08:05):
followers, really people who arereally quite dangerous people
who are threatening her. And there's something about, you
know, just this I, I wanted to create something so that anyone
who watches this film knows thatit absolutely is believable.
They understand why two whole 2 juries, separate juries found
(08:29):
him liable for sexual assault and for defamation because
that's what happened. And she, you get to hear her
side of the story and we just don't get to very much.
You see her in the news. She might have, you know, a
moment on a news program and yousee her going in and out of the
(08:49):
courtroom. But the job of a documentarian
or my job of how I felt stronglyabout is to get completely
behind that, under it, through it and show and really show this
woman who has been incredibly brave.
And it was a personal experiencefor, you know, it's not, you
(09:10):
know, she didn't decide to become this public figure in
this new way. She grappled with personal, you
know, demons and things that shehid even from herself, because
that's what happens when people bury traumatic events.
And then you get to really experience, you know, her life
(09:31):
and, and, and what she went through to to tell the story on
the stand and to the world. So I think I, I know this is a
bit of a long convoluted answer to your question, but I think
she she represents something to me about, you know, that, you
know, the bigger question of whydon't we believe women more when
(09:54):
they say what that something horrible has happened to them.
And I just that alone. What is why E Jean has become so
important to so many people? Well, we have people from all
sides of the political spectrum on the show.
And one of the things that I could say that's positive about
(10:16):
this documentary is I really enjoyed the parts just about her
life and her journalism. I wasn't expecting that going
in, all the information about her, as you said, being a gonzo
journalist. Tell us a little bit about what
you learned about her career andwhy anyone you know forgetting
(10:37):
all the political stuff, why anyone just might find a
documentary about her personallyinteresting?
Yeah, that it's, it's so true. And that is exactly why it
became a documentary, because there is no real story that
would carry a whole feature documentary in my mind.
That's not just about what happened at Bergdorf Goodman's.
(11:01):
That's one small part of her life.
And I also was really determinedto not allow her whole life to
be reduced to that moment. So you're right.
I mean, she is, she grew up in Indiana in a very traditional
household and, but was by all accounts, you know, a real
(11:21):
firecracker and always just, youknow, a really a tomboy as she
would describe. She was very athletic.
She was very, but she wasn't particularly academic, but she
just had this very strong personality, very strong sense
of self. So she grew up, she went to
Indiana University. She was a, a, a nationally
ranked cheerleader. She was a beauty queen, but she
(11:41):
really wanted to be a writer. And she got married very young,
and she married a guy who was a writer who was already having
some articles published and everything.
They lived this kind of like, you know, ranch life with horses
and everything in Montana. And she wrote constantly and was
getting rejected over and over again.
(12:03):
Anyone who tries to do kind of any kind of artist or work like
that, trying to get their voice out there knows that experience.
So. And she did it for about 10
years. So she was already not, you
know, in some people's minds that young, but she sold an
article to Esquire magazine and boom.
And this isn't, you know, this is in the early 80s, I think by
(12:24):
now. And so she this is the magazine
world in New York City where people don't don't know.
It was it was really taking off and it was mad.
There are massive glossy magazines for every topic you
could think of and you could make a really good living as a
writer. They were hiring journalists to
tell all kinds of stories. And so E Jean was really the
(12:47):
first woman writer, journalist to breakthrough into that
extremely male dominated world. She she was doing major pieces
for all the big magazines and she was an editor for Outside
magazine. She was an editor for on S at
Esquire. And those are male.
(13:07):
You think of those magazines, right?
You think that those are men's magazines, but she was she was.
And she talks about having, you know, being a regular at
Elaine's, which is the bar restaurant in New York City
where a lot of artists and writers would go.
And writers night was it was allman at the table and E Jean and
(13:28):
she held her own and and she wasvery, very sought after at that
time as a writer. And then she was hired by Elle
magazine to become, to be the ask E Jean, the, you know, a
Vice columnist, sorry. And she, that just took off
enormously. So she was really.
(13:49):
And then she had her own television show.
She, Roger Ailes had the America's Talking Network.
And E Jean and Roger Ailes were great friends.
She, she, he, he loved her. He was, he, he saw something in
her. He gave her her own show that
ran for almost three years, and then, you know, he went on to do
(14:11):
other things, as we know. Remind everybody what else he is
known. For oh, yeah, Well, Roger Ailes
for that went on to create Fox, Fox News and, you know, to be
fair, and Roger Ailes also did notoriously be accused by quite
a few women of sexual harassmentand more and sexual assault.
(14:33):
But E Jean always said that she didn't know anything about that
and did not encounter that with,with Rodger.
She was, she had only nice things to say about Rodger at
the time. Of course, she and her
colleagues were very shocked andnot happy to hear who else, you
know, what else he'd been up to.But the the point is that E Jean
(14:57):
lived. She, she was a force.
So she's this very strong independent woman.
She had, you know, divorced her first husband.
She was remarried. She was very much a part of the
New York City. She was hired by SAG Night Live
for a year to write, write for them.
She was, she hadn't, you know, alot.
(15:18):
She, she published many books. She published a hilarious book
about Hunter S Thompson, which is very funny.
It's a biography. It's kind of a send up of a
biography because they were friends then they were not
friends. But she insisted on writing a
this book, which he didn't. I, I guess he was not too
pleased about. But I, I recommend it to
anybody. Anyone who's a fan of Hunter S
(15:41):
Thompson would really, I mean, really get a kick out of it.
So anyway, that's. Yeah.
So there was so much to uncover,Tom and I, I mean, we couldn't
even put nearly all of it in. Well, you did an excellent job
of that and I just enjoyed revisiting that, that time
period that you described when magazines were a big deal.
(16:02):
You know, it's like things have changed so much.
But but being a writer at A at amagazine back then was a big
deal and she was certainly one of the best.
Yes, and very sought after in the in the film.
Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't she even say at one point that
before this whole big case she wasn't even a political person
(16:27):
or didn't think of herself as such?
Is that? True, That's right.
It's very true and it's and I think it's real.
It's we. I really wanted to keep that in
the the film for that reason, because it's again, one of these
things that people kind of throwaround and accuse her of a being
because that would explain her amotivation for coming forward
(16:48):
with these stories about Trump. But they but it's really she's
not political. She was.
And in fact, you know, this is what makes her story so true.
And because life is so much morecomplicated, right?
She did not she would she would not have called herself a
feminist when she was younger. She didn't, she rejected.
(17:08):
She's like, why I don't want to talk about the patriarchy, blah,
blah. You know, she was very much, I
mean, I found it fascinating because she's so different from
my, my own mother who would be the same age if she hadn't
passed away. But she who was very much in
this kind of, you know, young feminist world where we, you
know, you'd have consciousness raising meetings and how do we
(17:30):
combat the patriarchy and everything.
E Jean was probably the kind of woman that she and my mother may
not have even would not have been friends because Eugene
really and you see little clips of that.
We wanted to make sure that people understand that she, she
was someone that, you know, was not so sympathetic to Monica
(17:53):
Lewinsky or to Paula Jones or she, you know, she's she, she
did not. I, I think the fact that she, I
mean, now she would, you know, she looks back on and she's not
happy with the kind of advice she gave, but she was giving
advice to women. Use your looks to get ahead and
(18:16):
stop complaining. If you know, if you, if you know
someone, if you feel like your boss is harassing you, use it,
use it to get ahead. And it's such a, it is a
different world where she was was, but she but what I like is
that it's, it's honest, you know, it's, it's just, we're not
(18:38):
trying to remake history. She's not trying to say, you
know, oh, I was, you know, I wasso horrible.
She it's just, she's of her time.
But what she's showing is that things can change.
And so if you have the Me Too movement come through and, and,
and she's inspired by these young women who say enough is
(18:59):
enough. And, and she was also, by the
way, as inspired by the act of journalism as a journalist
herself, you know, the the pursuit of that story and just
not letting go of it and gettingto the bottom of it and making
sure you have plenty of people coming forward so that so that
the story is solid. And I think, yeah, it's not
(19:22):
political. She is, she is, she is, she was
not political. She is.
Her mother was a Republican. She would they didn't really
think about it. She wasn't.
All this stuff about her, I haveto say, just reading the news
when she was in the news with the allegations and then the
trial, unless one was already familiar with her career, which
(19:45):
I'm sure a lot of people were, but many weren't it, it just
didn't seem like the press was doing a very good job of giving
a full background of who she wasprior to this.
Do you think there's any reason as to why?
You know, it's I, you know, I'vethought about this because I,
(20:08):
you know, when you watch the early news programs, like when
she first came out with the story and, and she's being
interviewed, Yeah, they were so focused on, I think just I, I
think it's so, you know, the, the lurid nature, you know, of
(20:32):
the story and the, and the, you know, that.
And then, and I understand that people are, you know, get drawn
to that and they just, you know,and then they want to know why
didn't you come forward before? What do you But I mean, just to
give the news a little bit of a pass.
I understand they don't have as much time.
You know, I mean, we have in a documentary this it's why it's
(20:54):
why sometimes it feels so important to do this kind of
story is because you can't do all of it.
Now I have seen, you know, I think Rachel Maddow at one
point, you know, did do a night,you know, and we used some of
that. And I, I don't remember if that
was a later clip or not, but I think it's also just, you know,
(21:15):
it just doesn't fit with, you know, their, you know, sometimes
I think that, you know, the press can't help but just
falling into this very, you know, kind of Pat, you know, OK,
here's here comes another one. And she's, you know, and maybe
she seems a little eccentric andmaybe she's that because she is,
I mean, she's, she's a writer and she's an eccentric person.
(21:37):
But I think it's just easier forthem to, you know, not not go
too far into someone's background.
I guess. I don't know.
I mean, or maybe it confuses their the point they're trying
to make or I, I, I don't know. But I but I totally agree with
(21:58):
you. And it was a big motivator for
all of us who worked on the film, as we discovered, because
I honestly didn't know that muchabout her.
And many people don't know that she had a television show or
that she was a journalist beyondthey think, oh, she's that
advice columnist, right? I mean, they don't, they don't
remember that. Well, it's, it's so fascinating.
(22:20):
And one of the things that I, I wanted to ask you as a filmmaker
is how important was it for you to believe her story personally?
I mean, part of the lawsuits were just about him, Donald
Trump not stopping talking and defaming her.
(22:40):
And you know, people people may or may not have differences of
opinion about that ruling, but it that was pretty black and
white. He kept on talking and some
people liked it, some people didn't.
But but the facts were just obviously what they were.
The issue with me too, that somepeople have differences of
(23:02):
opinion of and you said before, I mean, it's pretty clear where
you're coming from. You feel like we should believe
the victim. But in this particular case,
some people look and say it happened so many years ago and
they just, they just don't know whether to believe it or not.
(23:22):
So was it important for you to find some some information that
maybe others didn't know about in order for you to make this
film or, or not at all really. You know, I mean, I guess I, I
am someone who feels that you should believe believe 1st and
(23:50):
question later if that makes anysense.
When it comes to someone, I think I would say women and
children, if a child or a woman or someone comes to you or or a
man who's been assaulted, beat up, whatever and says this
horrible thing has happened to me.
And I, I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm maybe I,
(24:13):
maybe it's some naivete, but then, but then I will, I, I will
look at it more closely after that, if that makes any sense.
I'm I basically feel that it's important to assume that someone
is not making up some fabulous, very complicated lie and then
putting themselves through hell because they think they might
(24:35):
make some money at the end or they want to have revenge on
someone or whatever. Like I just don't look at
humanity that way. That said, I know that people
make stuff up sometimes and I know that that can happen.
For me, it goes all goes back tothat initial article that I read
the excerpt from her book that now I know people can be
(24:59):
incredible writers and can could, you know, persuade me and
and it could be false. But I felt such truth in that
article. And it was because she was not
afraid to say that, yes, she wasflirting with him.
Yes, she did go along with him. Yes, she did go all the way up
to the dressing room. And you know what happens to a
(25:23):
lot of so-called victims or survivors of of thing like this?
It's like they have to act like they wouldn't they that that,
you know, they were. It's almost like if you weren't
attacked, you know, on a dark alley by someone you know, don't
know, which is, as we all know, very unusual.
It's mostly people who you know or are acquaintances with who,
(25:46):
who assault you. If you're not, if it's not that
kind of pure thing, then then then it becomes this whole, you
know, where you have to kind of explain yourself.
And what Eugene did is she didn't, she wrote a kind of a
funny, engaging story of what was a fun repartee, as she calls
(26:08):
it, you know, with with with Donald Trump.
And they were having. And she says he was a very
different person. He was not the former president.
He was more freewheeling. You could see it.
You could see how it could happen.
And even an incredible writer like herself with a vivid
memory, those details, you know,that he's holding that he was
(26:29):
holding a hat. She suggested a hat for his, the
friend he was shopping for. And he's petting the hat and
he's saying, no, no, not a hat and all of that.
And she went all the way up withhim and was joking around.
And I guess it just, it felt, itjust felt true to me.
And so I did believe her from the minute I read that article.
(26:49):
I did not doubt her at all. I will say that I got very
defensive when people would would doubt her and it just made
motivated me more to show. And but you until when once you
see the the video depositions, especially of E Jean having
(27:10):
which basically makes you feel that you are in the courtroom.
And what I'm referring to is thefootage that we have exclusive
access to in the, in our film, which is E Jean's depositions
where she is being questioned byAlina Haba, Donald Trump's
attorney. And she has to go through this
twice. And she it, I mean, you've seen
(27:30):
the font on. You see, she really is, she's so
beaten down. She's really forced to reckon
with her life and what she has lost and what she buried.
And I, I, I just think that there, there's so much that
shows what this really, what this really did that she didn't
(27:57):
even know about. And you can see it in her face.
You can hear it in her voice. People can't make that stuff.
You can't make that up. How did you get the rights to
that? I I didn't even know that you
could release something like that and show it in the film.
Yeah, well, that was a great gift from E Jean and her
attorney, Robbie Kaplan, becauseI gained their trust and they
(28:22):
they trusted me. It is very unusual.
The only reason we're able to use, by the way, because you
will notice in the film there's a bit of Donald Trump's
deposition. Of course.
I mean, you know, you have to the person who's being deposed
and their attorney have to release give you the the right.
They had to release it to me. So if I wanted to use all of Mr.
(28:47):
Trump's deposition, I would havehad to get the same kind of
license to use it. But because some of his 45
minutes of his deposition were entered into court evidence that
made them public instantly. But E jeans were never they were
(29:09):
never entered up to. Well.
And so, so anyway, it was, it was, it's an incredible way to
to share that part of the story.Well, that was a real score,
yeah. Yeah.
This is a very fascinating documentary.
Ask E Gene it. It's playing at the Hamptons
International Film Festival on October 5th at 5:00 PM.
(29:33):
Is there any place online that people can go to learn more
about your movie, your work, andand maybe other screenings of
the film? Sure.
And let me just add we also are the film is also showing on
October 4th at the Hamptons. Oh, great.
What time And that that's at 2:15 and that's October 4th.
(29:53):
So that yeah, there'll be two screenings.
We do have a website, askegenefilm.com.
I hope I'm getting it right. I know that's our that's our
Instagram. We are just getting those going
and we, we will, yeah, we will be listing all of our screenings
(30:13):
there. We will after the Hamptons, I'll
be at Hot Springs in Arkansas and then we will be at
Woodstock, another New York screening on October 16th.
And then on, on and on from there.
We'll another somewhat local, just you know, the tri-state
(30:34):
area will be in Montclair, the Montclair Film Festival and that
one is I want to say October 25th, but I will, we will we
will be updating our website andyeah, unfortunately I don't have
I don't have a website for my own work, but.
Well, I'm sure people are going to be able to look it up.
(30:56):
Ivy, I want to thank you so muchfor coming on the sounds of
film. You really did great, great job
with this movie. And I, I think people from any
political spectrum will find it fascinating for a lot of
different reasons, but it's wellbalanced.
It does have a strong point of view, but it's entertaining and
(31:16):
and it's really a great, great film, like we talked about
earlier about just that error ofjournalism.
Great job. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Hi, I'm Tom Needham and you are listening to the sounds of film.
Today we are speaking with Ivy Maripol, the acclaimed director
of Ask E Gene, a new featured documentary about journalist,
advice columnist and cultural icon E Gene Carroll.
The film explores Carol's extraordinary career, from her
(00:21):
groundbreaking work in journalism to her legal battles
against Donald Trump, where she became the only woman to defeat
him in court twice. The film is screening at the
Hamptons International Film Festival on October 5th at 5:00
PM. Thank you very much, Ivy, for
joining us in The Sounds of Film.
Thank you for having me. Oh yeah, very interesting
(00:44):
documentary. Can you tell me why you chose to
to make a film about E Jean Carroll?
Sure. I mean, it's a bit of a long
answer only because it changed over the course of the many
years that I have been working with E Jean on that.
I've been working on the film about E Jean.
(01:05):
So I met her. I reached out to her after she
published the excerpt from her book What Do We Need Men For?
And it was famously published. An excerpt was published on New
York in New York Magazine, and she was on the cover.
And I read that article and I just really wanted to know more
about her. It was, it was.
(01:26):
And I tried to try to explain. It was her, her writers voice
really, that struck me. I didn't know much about her,
but the way she was telling the story of what had happened at
Bergdorf's with Donald Trump, you know, really drew me and not
so much this, you know, I, we'd already heard stories of, of
Donald Trump, of other, other accusers.
(01:49):
And so it really was the way shetold her story.
I just was really intrigued by her.
So I asked my manager to call her her ask her agent, is anyone
doing a film about her? And it went from there.
I've many other film makers wereactually trying to go for her.
But I that was the original impulse.
(02:10):
The instinct was just I wanted to know more about her because
of how she talked about this, this story.
And as I got to know her and then discovered this incredible
background, you know, that she'sthis acclaimed journalist and
she, you know, she's really a gonzo journalist, you know, in
the Hunter S Thompson style, buteven beyond.
(02:31):
And that she was the first womaneditor at all these major
magazines during the heyday of the magazine world in New York
City. And she had her own show.
So I just that more and more, I just thought, OK, this is this
is someone who, you know, when you're making a documentary,
sometimes you start with an issue.
Sometimes you start with you're struck by an individual.
(02:52):
And in this case, it was, I was just struck by this individual
who became but the story then takes off to become much more
and as about, you know, women inAmerica and the silent, the, the
silent generation and, and how at age 75, she, she found a new
(03:17):
way to talk about her, about herlife and understand her life and
look at her life anew. And so that became another
theme. And then there's, you know, the
friendships between she and her,the two women that she told what
happened that day. And then 25 years later, they
bravely join her, you know, in the trials.
And so I guess what I'm trying to say is it to me, this is a
(03:40):
perfect example of what, how exciting and also terrifying
making documentaries can be where you really are just you,
you have to sometimes just strapon and be like, I'm going along
for this ride and I hope I can take it all the way.
Well, you've made other films about controversial and complex
figures before. Can you just tell our listeners
(04:02):
about some of the other ones you've made just very quickly,
and how this one fits in with those in your opinion?
Oh, sure. OK.
Well, my, my very first film, which got me into this whole
business, was Heir to an Execution, which is briefly,
it's a personal film about my grandparents and my, well, my
(04:23):
father, my uncle and my grandparents who were Ethel and
Julius Rosenberg, who were executed by the US government in
1953 and accused of stealing thesecret of the atom bomb and
sharing it with the Soviet Union.
And so I grew up with the this, this story looming, you know,
over me. It wasn't.
And my father as a young man anda young father came out as a
(04:48):
mirror pole Rosenberg. So that was a big part of my
childhood so that I was grappling with that.
Then I made, then I quickly I wanted to do something very
different. I made a show called The Hill
about a member of Congress and his young staff 'cause that was
something that I did out of college myself.
There's always a personal there's there is always
something personal. Sometimes I'm not as aware of
(05:11):
what it is until later, but I made a film called Indian Point
about the nuclear power plant just outside of New York City,
because I moved to the area and became very intrigued with what
this place that's so controversial and is it as
dangerous as everyone says? And I more recently made a film
(05:32):
about Roy Cohn, which is connected and that that was Roy
Cohn was the assistant prosecutor in my grandparents
case when he was a very young lawyer.
But he went on to become Joe McCarthy's right hand man and
then helped shape our current president.
So he, but he loomed large in my, in my life, But I, I felt it
(05:55):
was really important to tell, tofocus on him as an individual to
help understand what was happening now about, you know,
the way that he operated and theway that he, you know, factored
into the Lavender scare, the Redscare and helped, you know,
(06:15):
promote Trump to believe, help Trump believe even in himself as
a political person. So I guess that what tie it's
hard to say what ties them all together.
I I leave that to other people usually to try to say about me,
but I but I have been thinking about it a lot.
I mean to, to be honest, you know, I think about E Jean in
(06:38):
particular, you know, I mean, I think, you know, people probably
would say that there's, there is, there is a common thread.
You know, I it, I, I want, I guess there's something about
believing someone when they're telling their story, right?
It's a it's, it's EGI wanted to be, I wanted to create something
(07:01):
that when you watch this film, you get to know, EG you're
amazed by hers. Everyone should because she's
incredible. And I mean, I couldn't get
enough of, of, of her as a, as aperson in terms of just her
incredible good humor as she's going through all this too, is
(07:21):
just something very, you know, Ifound incredibly attractive.
And I think it's really important when you're when
you're dealing with such like difficult stories and difficult
experiences. But her sorry, I lost my chain
of thought. I'm talking.
So I, I guess I would say that I, you know, the fact that she
(07:44):
had to face this very angry public and, and a lot of what,
you know, what you see in the film is how when the president
was defaming her, he activated alot of his really less savory
(08:05):
followers, really people who arereally quite dangerous people
who are threatening her. And there's something about, you
know, just this I, I wanted to create something so that anyone
who watches this film knows thatit absolutely is believable.
They understand why two whole 2 juries, separate juries found
(08:29):
him liable for sexual assault and for defamation because
that's what happened. And she, you get to hear her
side of the story and we just don't get to very much.
You see her in the news. She might have, you know, a
moment on a news program and yousee her going in and out of the
(08:49):
courtroom. But the job of a documentarian
or my job of how I felt stronglyabout is to get completely
behind that, under it, through it and show and really show this
woman who has been incredibly brave.
And it was a personal experiencefor, you know, it's not, you
(09:10):
know, she didn't decide to become this public figure in
this new way. She grappled with personal, you
know, demons and things that shehid even from herself, because
that's what happens when people bury traumatic events.
And then you get to really experience, you know, her life
(09:31):
and, and, and what she went through to to tell the story on
the stand and to the world. So I think I, I know this is a
bit of a long convoluted answer to your question, but I think
she she represents something to me about, you know, that, you
know, the bigger question of whydon't we believe women more when
(09:54):
they say what that something horrible has happened to them.
And I just that alone. What is why E Jean has become so
important to so many people? Well, we have people from all
sides of the political spectrum on the show.
And one of the things that I could say that's positive about
(10:16):
this documentary is I really enjoyed the parts just about her
life and her journalism. I wasn't expecting that going
in, all the information about her, as you said, being a gonzo
journalist. Tell us a little bit about what
you learned about her career andwhy anyone you know forgetting
(10:37):
all the political stuff, why anyone just might find a
documentary about her personallyinteresting?
Yeah, that it's, it's so true. And that is exactly why it
became a documentary, because there is no real story that
would carry a whole feature documentary in my mind.
That's not just about what happened at Bergdorf Goodman's.
(11:01):
That's one small part of her life.
And I also was really determinedto not allow her whole life to
be reduced to that moment. So you're right.
I mean, she is, she grew up in Indiana in a very traditional
household and, but was by all accounts, you know, a real
(11:21):
firecracker and always just, youknow, a really a tomboy as she
would describe. She was very athletic.
She was very, but she wasn't particularly academic, but she
just had this very strong personality, very strong sense
of self. So she grew up, she went to
Indiana University. She was a, a, a nationally
ranked cheerleader. She was a beauty queen, but she
(11:41):
really wanted to be a writer. And she got married very young,
and she married a guy who was a writer who was already having
some articles published and everything.
They lived this kind of like, you know, ranch life with horses
and everything in Montana. And she wrote constantly and was
getting rejected over and over again.
(12:03):
Anyone who tries to do kind of any kind of artist or work like
that, trying to get their voice out there knows that experience.
So. And she did it for about 10
years. So she was already not, you
know, in some people's minds that young, but she sold an
article to Esquire magazine and boom.
And this isn't, you know, this is in the early 80s, I think by
(12:24):
now. And so she this is the magazine
world in New York City where people don't don't know.
It was it was really taking off and it was mad.
There are massive glossy magazines for every topic you
could think of and you could make a really good living as a
writer. They were hiring journalists to
tell all kinds of stories. And so E Jean was really the
(12:47):
first woman writer, journalist to breakthrough into that
extremely male dominated world. She she was doing major pieces
for all the big magazines and she was an editor for Outside
magazine. She was an editor for on S at
Esquire. And those are male.
(13:07):
You think of those magazines, right?
You think that those are men's magazines, but she was she was.
And she talks about having, you know, being a regular at
Elaine's, which is the bar restaurant in New York City
where a lot of artists and writers would go.
And writers night was it was allman at the table and E Jean and
(13:28):
she held her own and and she wasvery, very sought after at that
time as a writer. And then she was hired by Elle
magazine to become, to be the ask E Jean, the, you know, a
Vice columnist, sorry. And she, that just took off
enormously. So she was really.
(13:49):
And then she had her own television show.
She, Roger Ailes had the America's Talking Network.
And E Jean and Roger Ailes were great friends.
She, she, he, he loved her. He was, he, he saw something in
her. He gave her her own show that
ran for almost three years, and then, you know, he went on to do
(14:11):
other things, as we know. Remind everybody what else he is
known. For oh, yeah, Well, Roger Ailes
for that went on to create Fox, Fox News and, you know, to be
fair, and Roger Ailes also did notoriously be accused by quite
a few women of sexual harassmentand more and sexual assault.
(14:33):
But E Jean always said that she didn't know anything about that
and did not encounter that with,with Rodger.
She was, she had only nice things to say about Rodger at
the time. Of course, she and her
colleagues were very shocked andnot happy to hear who else, you
know, what else he'd been up to.But the the point is that E Jean
(14:57):
lived. She, she was a force.
So she's this very strong independent woman.
She had, you know, divorced her first husband.
She was remarried. She was very much a part of the
New York City. She was hired by SAG Night Live
for a year to write, write for them.
She was, she hadn't, you know, alot.
(15:18):
She, she published many books. She published a hilarious book
about Hunter S Thompson, which is very funny.
It's a biography. It's kind of a send up of a
biography because they were friends then they were not
friends. But she insisted on writing a
this book, which he didn't. I, I guess he was not too
pleased about. But I, I recommend it to
anybody. Anyone who's a fan of Hunter S
(15:41):
Thompson would really, I mean, really get a kick out of it.
So anyway, that's. Yeah.
So there was so much to uncover,Tom and I, I mean, we couldn't
even put nearly all of it in. Well, you did an excellent job
of that and I just enjoyed revisiting that, that time
period that you described when magazines were a big deal.
(16:02):
You know, it's like things have changed so much.
But but being a writer at A at amagazine back then was a big
deal and she was certainly one of the best.
Yes, and very sought after in the in the film.
Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't she even say at one point that
before this whole big case she wasn't even a political person
(16:27):
or didn't think of herself as such?
Is that? True, That's right.
It's very true and it's and I think it's real.
It's we. I really wanted to keep that in
the the film for that reason, because it's again, one of these
things that people kind of throwaround and accuse her of a being
because that would explain her amotivation for coming forward
(16:48):
with these stories about Trump. But they but it's really she's
not political. She was.
And in fact, you know, this is what makes her story so true.
And because life is so much morecomplicated, right?
She did not she would she would not have called herself a
feminist when she was younger. She didn't, she rejected.
(17:08):
She's like, why I don't want to talk about the patriarchy, blah,
blah. You know, she was very much, I
mean, I found it fascinating because she's so different from
my, my own mother who would be the same age if she hadn't
passed away. But she who was very much in
this kind of, you know, young feminist world where we, you
know, you'd have consciousness raising meetings and how do we
(17:30):
combat the patriarchy and everything.
E Jean was probably the kind of woman that she and my mother may
not have even would not have been friends because Eugene
really and you see little clips of that.
We wanted to make sure that people understand that she, she
was someone that, you know, was not so sympathetic to Monica
(17:53):
Lewinsky or to Paula Jones or she, you know, she's she, she
did not. I, I think the fact that she, I
mean, now she would, you know, she looks back on and she's not
happy with the kind of advice she gave, but she was giving
advice to women. Use your looks to get ahead and
(18:16):
stop complaining. If you know, if you, if you know
someone, if you feel like your boss is harassing you, use it,
use it to get ahead. And it's such a, it is a
different world where she was was, but she but what I like is
that it's, it's honest, you know, it's, it's just, we're not
(18:38):
trying to remake history. She's not trying to say, you
know, oh, I was, you know, I wasso horrible.
She it's just, she's of her time.
But what she's showing is that things can change.
And so if you have the Me Too movement come through and, and,
and she's inspired by these young women who say enough is
(18:59):
enough. And, and she was also, by the
way, as inspired by the act of journalism as a journalist
herself, you know, the the pursuit of that story and just
not letting go of it and gettingto the bottom of it and making
sure you have plenty of people coming forward so that so that
the story is solid. And I think, yeah, it's not
(19:22):
political. She is, she is, she is, she was
not political. She is.
Her mother was a Republican. She would they didn't really
think about it. She wasn't.
All this stuff about her, I haveto say, just reading the news
when she was in the news with the allegations and then the
trial, unless one was already familiar with her career, which
(19:45):
I'm sure a lot of people were, but many weren't it, it just
didn't seem like the press was doing a very good job of giving
a full background of who she wasprior to this.
Do you think there's any reason as to why?
You know, it's I, you know, I'vethought about this because I,
(20:08):
you know, when you watch the early news programs, like when
she first came out with the story and, and she's being
interviewed, Yeah, they were so focused on, I think just I, I
think it's so, you know, the, the lurid nature, you know, of
(20:32):
the story and the, and the, you know, that.
And then, and I understand that people are, you know, get drawn
to that and they just, you know,and then they want to know why
didn't you come forward before? What do you But I mean, just to
give the news a little bit of a pass.
I understand they don't have as much time.
You know, I mean, we have in a documentary this it's why it's
(20:54):
why sometimes it feels so important to do this kind of
story is because you can't do all of it.
Now I have seen, you know, I think Rachel Maddow at one
point, you know, did do a night,you know, and we used some of
that. And I, I don't remember if that
was a later clip or not, but I think it's also just, you know,
(21:15):
it just doesn't fit with, you know, their, you know, sometimes
I think that, you know, the press can't help but just
falling into this very, you know, kind of Pat, you know, OK,
here's here comes another one. And she's, you know, and maybe
she seems a little eccentric andmaybe she's that because she is,
I mean, she's, she's a writer and she's an eccentric person.
(21:37):
But I think it's just easier forthem to, you know, not not go
too far into someone's background.
I guess. I don't know.
I mean, or maybe it confuses their the point they're trying
to make or I, I, I don't know. But I but I totally agree with
(21:58):
you. And it was a big motivator for
all of us who worked on the film, as we discovered, because
I honestly didn't know that muchabout her.
And many people don't know that she had a television show or
that she was a journalist beyondthey think, oh, she's that
advice columnist, right? I mean, they don't, they don't
remember that. Well, it's, it's so fascinating.
(22:20):
And one of the things that I, I wanted to ask you as a filmmaker
is how important was it for you to believe her story personally?
I mean, part of the lawsuits were just about him, Donald
Trump not stopping talking and defaming her.
(22:40):
And you know, people people may or may not have differences of
opinion about that ruling, but it that was pretty black and
white. He kept on talking and some
people liked it, some people didn't.
But but the facts were just obviously what they were.
The issue with me too, that somepeople have differences of
(23:02):
opinion of and you said before, I mean, it's pretty clear where
you're coming from. You feel like we should believe
the victim. But in this particular case,
some people look and say it happened so many years ago and
they just, they just don't know whether to believe it or not.
(23:22):
So was it important for you to find some some information that
maybe others didn't know about in order for you to make this
film or, or not at all really. You know, I mean, I guess I, I
am someone who feels that you should believe believe 1st and
(23:50):
question later if that makes anysense.
When it comes to someone, I think I would say women and
children, if a child or a woman or someone comes to you or or a
man who's been assaulted, beat up, whatever and says this
horrible thing has happened to me.
And I, I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm maybe I,
(24:13):
maybe it's some naivete, but then, but then I will, I, I will
look at it more closely after that, if that makes any sense.
I'm I basically feel that it's important to assume that someone
is not making up some fabulous, very complicated lie and then
putting themselves through hell because they think they might
(24:35):
make some money at the end or they want to have revenge on
someone or whatever. Like I just don't look at
humanity that way. That said, I know that people
make stuff up sometimes and I know that that can happen.
For me, it goes all goes back tothat initial article that I read
the excerpt from her book that now I know people can be
(24:59):
incredible writers and can could, you know, persuade me and
and it could be false. But I felt such truth in that
article. And it was because she was not
afraid to say that, yes, she wasflirting with him.
Yes, she did go along with him. Yes, she did go all the way up
to the dressing room. And you know what happens to a
(25:23):
lot of so-called victims or survivors of of thing like this?
It's like they have to act like they wouldn't they that that,
you know, they were. It's almost like if you weren't
attacked, you know, on a dark alley by someone you know, don't
know, which is, as we all know, very unusual.
It's mostly people who you know or are acquaintances with who,
(25:46):
who assault you. If you're not, if it's not that
kind of pure thing, then then then it becomes this whole, you
know, where you have to kind of explain yourself.
And what Eugene did is she didn't, she wrote a kind of a
funny, engaging story of what was a fun repartee, as she calls
(26:08):
it, you know, with with with Donald Trump.
And they were having. And she says he was a very
different person. He was not the former president.
He was more freewheeling. You could see it.
You could see how it could happen.
And even an incredible writer like herself with a vivid
memory, those details, you know,that he's holding that he was
(26:29):
holding a hat. She suggested a hat for his, the
friend he was shopping for. And he's petting the hat and
he's saying, no, no, not a hat and all of that.
And she went all the way up withhim and was joking around.
And I guess it just, it felt, itjust felt true to me.
And so I did believe her from the minute I read that article.
(26:49):
I did not doubt her at all. I will say that I got very
defensive when people would would doubt her and it just made
motivated me more to show. And but you until when once you
see the the video depositions, especially of E Jean having
(27:10):
which basically makes you feel that you are in the courtroom.
And what I'm referring to is thefootage that we have exclusive
access to in the, in our film, which is E Jean's depositions
where she is being questioned byAlina Haba, Donald Trump's
attorney. And she has to go through this
twice. And she it, I mean, you've seen
(27:30):
the font on. You see, she really is, she's so
beaten down. She's really forced to reckon
with her life and what she has lost and what she buried.
And I, I, I just think that there, there's so much that
shows what this really, what this really did that she didn't
(27:57):
even know about. And you can see it in her face.
You can hear it in her voice. People can't make that stuff.
You can't make that up. How did you get the rights to
that? I I didn't even know that you
could release something like that and show it in the film.
Yeah, well, that was a great gift from E Jean and her
attorney, Robbie Kaplan, becauseI gained their trust and they
(28:22):
they trusted me. It is very unusual.
The only reason we're able to use, by the way, because you
will notice in the film there's a bit of Donald Trump's
deposition. Of course.
I mean, you know, you have to the person who's being deposed
and their attorney have to release give you the the right.
They had to release it to me. So if I wanted to use all of Mr.
(28:47):
Trump's deposition, I would havehad to get the same kind of
license to use it. But because some of his 45
minutes of his deposition were entered into court evidence that
made them public instantly. But E jeans were never they were
(29:09):
never entered up to. Well.
And so, so anyway, it was, it was, it's an incredible way to
to share that part of the story.Well, that was a real score,
yeah. Yeah.
This is a very fascinating documentary.
Ask E Gene it. It's playing at the Hamptons
International Film Festival on October 5th at 5:00 PM.
(29:33):
Is there any place online that people can go to learn more
about your movie, your work, andand maybe other screenings of
the film? Sure.
And let me just add we also are the film is also showing on
October 4th at the Hamptons. Oh, great.
What time And that that's at 2:15 and that's October 4th.
(29:53):
So that yeah, there'll be two screenings.
We do have a website, askegenefilm.com.
I hope I'm getting it right. I know that's our that's our
Instagram. We are just getting those going
and we, we will, yeah, we will be listing all of our screenings
(30:13):
there. We will after the Hamptons, I'll
be at Hot Springs in Arkansas and then we will be at
Woodstock, another New York screening on October 16th.
And then on, on and on from there.
We'll another somewhat local, just you know, the tri-state
(30:34):
area will be in Montclair, the Montclair Film Festival and that
one is I want to say October 25th, but I will, we will we
will be updating our website andyeah, unfortunately I don't have
I don't have a website for my own work, but.
Well, I'm sure people are going to be able to look it up.
(30:56):
Ivy, I want to thank you so muchfor coming on the sounds of
film. You really did great, great job
with this movie. And I, I think people from any
political spectrum will find it fascinating for a lot of
different reasons, but it's wellbalanced.
It does have a strong point of view, but it's entertaining and
(31:16):
and it's really a great, great film, like we talked about
earlier about just that error ofjournalism.
Great job. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
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