September 9, 2025 • 35 mins
This week on The Sounds of Film, host Tom Needham speaks with director Andreas Zerr about his new documentary, Sane Inside Insanity: The Phenomenon of Rocky Horror. The film arrives just in time for the 50th anniversary of The Rocky Horror Picture Show, the cult classic that transformed midnight screenings into a worldwide cultural ritual.
Zerr’s documentary goes far beyond nostalgia, tracing Rocky Horror’s unlikely journey from a scrappy stage production in London to the longest-running theatrical release in cinema history. Featuring candid interviews with Patricia Quinn, Nell Campbell, Barry Bostwick, Jim Sharman, Richard Hartley, Sue Blane, and many others, the film uncovers never-before-heard stories from the cast, crew, and the fans who kept the phenomenon alive for five decades.
On The Sounds of Film, Zerr discusses the decade-long process of making the film, the challenges of capturing such a sprawling cultural story, and his surprising personal journey from casual observer to passionate chronicler of Rocky Horror’s impact. Sane Inside Insanity opens in North America on September 25, 2025.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, this is Tom Needham and you are listening to the sounds of
film. On today's show, we'll be
talking with director Andreas Zayer about his new documentary
Sane Inside Insanity, which takes a fresh look at the 50
year phenomenon of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Andreas, thank you so much for joining us.
(00:22):
This is a a very fun documentaryand also tells a great story.
Yes. Thank you very much.
This film is this show is calledThe Sounds of Film, and we play
a lot of film soundtrack music. So through the years we've
definitely paid a lot of attention to The Rocky Horror
Picture Show. But this documentary really
(00:43):
tells the whole history of the movie and the play, and you did
a really nice job. You've said that you weren't a
huge fan of Rocky Horror before starting this project.
What made you even want to make this film then in the first
place? Well, as an independent
(01:04):
filmmaker, you're always lookingfor that one particularly great
story. And I think how Rocky Horror
came to pass beginning of the 70s until like 50 years later.
And this worldwide phenomenon isa very great story.
I mean, it's and more or less unprecedented success and to
(01:30):
follow the the story how it started as a 60 seat show in a
French Theatre in London and became this worldwide phenomenon
which like millions and millionsof people are following or have
followed and thousands and thousands of people are still
actively celebrating. It's a it's a very, very good
(01:53):
story and that's basically what made us do it.
Was this always going to be a feature length film, or did you
originally intend to just do something to mark the occasion?
Maybe something shorter? No.
Well, when we first started, actually, I wasn't really aware
that there was a show before themovie and I didn't, oh, I wasn't
(02:18):
aware of how big Rocky Horror still is in in in the presence.
So our first intention when we started the project was just
like like 30 minute feature, 45 minute feature, kind of a late
making of because everybody knows about the amazing careers
(02:41):
of Susan Sarandon and Tim Curry.But all the other actors and
people who were involved kind ofdisappeared from the original
stage, from the international stage, sorry.
And they had their careers definitely in their own rights,
but on the regional level, not like worldwide success.
(03:02):
And so I was just wondering whathappened to these people like
Richard O'Brien, Nell Campbell, Pat Quinn.
And so the original intention was to make a yeah late make
enough. And when we started to
investigate and we started to dig deeper, the whole story of
(03:24):
what Rocky Horror was and still is suddenly occurred to us.
And that was basically the reason why we extended it to a
full length documentary. Well, it's definitely worthy.
I understand that this took you a lot of years to make.
Exactly how long did it take? And what is the reason that it
(03:45):
took so long? Well, it took us 10 years, more
than 10 years. We started filming in 2014, in
November 2014, and we actually finished it a couple of months
ago. So yeah, it was more than 10
years in the making. And the main reason was we never
(04:09):
took it as a very serious project because it wasn't
commissioned by any studio or network, or we didn't have
anybody who was financing it. So we were handling it like pet
project, you know, when you're working on a project in between
paid jobs. And that's basically why it took
(04:31):
us so long, because we financed everything by ourselves and we
did it more or less on our sparetime.
And that's one of the reasons why it took so long.
I I knew about the the popularity of the midnight
screenings and and the people that would go to them, but I
never really had a full sense ofthe community that developed
(04:53):
around this film through the years.
It's almost like a secret society.
Did you have to gain the trust of all these people who are very
much a part of that community? Yes, yes, definitely.
I wasn't aware of it either. And it took us a while to
(05:14):
realize the scope of how many active casts are out there.
And yeah, definitely it took us a while to to gain the trust.
But from the start we were very active on social media.
We posted our progress of the ofthe production.
(05:34):
And with with that, we we kind of gained trust because people
started to take us seriously. We were not just like any film
makers holding the cameras up and say hey dance, but we took
the whole production very, very seriously.
And once you have like stepped into the world of Rocky Horror
(05:58):
and people are taking you seriously, it's pretty easy
actually to get access to more. And contacts they're handling
were handled to us. And when we like announced that
we are going to the United States or we are going to
Australia to film, the people from the cast actually
(06:20):
approached us and wrote us mailsor messages if we would like to,
to come by their show and film their show and do some
interviews with them. So yeah, it took us a couple of
years to actually be treated seriously.
But once you have this kind of status, once you've like
(06:41):
published the first Bureau footage, once people people know
you, it was fairly easy. And once, once one the the
community of Rocky Horror is very tightly knit.
And you were right, man, saying that's kind of a, let's say
subculture. But once you've stepped into
(07:03):
that culture and once you've stepped in the into the
community, it became very easy for us.
For those people that are not familiar with all the different
formations of Rocky Horror, can you just give us a quick
overview of how it started as a play and then it became the next
(07:24):
thing and then the next thing and and what it is today?
How detailed would do you want me to be?
You can you, you can go. I mean, I want people to see the
film, you know, where you reallygo in deep and explain it all.
But just just a very general overview.
Well, it started off in 1970, two, 1973, when the writer and
(07:47):
composer Richard O'Brien developed the concept, which was
by that time called They Came From Denton High.
He presented that concept to at that time, famous director or
still famous director, of course, Jim Sharman, and they
both started to work on a screenplay.
(08:08):
They renamed it from They Came from Denton High into The Rocky
Horror Show. They went to a very renewable
renown Theatre in London, which is called the Royal Court.
And the Royal Court actually hasa small theatre which is not
(08:29):
much more than a black box on top of their main Theatre in
London. And yeah, they started the
casting people, actors like Tim Curry, for example, Nell
Campbell and Patricia Quinn, whowere among the first actors of
the show. And in June 1973 their they had
(08:49):
their premiere up there in the upstairs.
And yeah, it became an instant hit him smash hit across London.
Their contract went only for like 4 weeks, so after four
weeks they had to change the theatre.
So there's that famous Rd. in London called the King's Road
where at the time everything cultural was happening.
(09:13):
And they moved along that road to different theatres in the in
1974. And a producer in Los Angeles
called Lou Adler became aware ofthe show and he became
interested in Rocky Horror. And by the time he has just
(09:35):
bought a opened, bought opened aa cabaret theatre called The
Roxy. And he was interested in
bringing that play from London to the United States to Los
Angeles. And there it started in 1974.
(09:57):
And because of the success both in London and in Los Angeles,
they were able to get a movie contract.
And in October, I think it was in October 1974, they started
filming back in London again. And that took about, I think,
(10:22):
like 3 months, four months. And the film was finished
actually in 1975, had a theatrical release on September
26 in the United States, some late late October, late August
in London. But the main thing was United
States in September 1976 and 1975.
(10:45):
And sorry. And yeah, from when the film
first came out, actually it was a flop.
Nobody wanted to see it because it was too far ahead.
It went over the heads of the like regular audience.
So nobody wanted to see the film.
And so it was in the cinemas only for a couple of weeks and
(11:10):
then it was more or less forgotten.
It went into the shelf to be released or to to go on on on
television or whatever. But it was never meant or the
let's say it wasn't the cult back then.
And a Fox executive who was on the lower level executive in the
(11:31):
marketing and sales department called Tim Deegan had the idea
to open the movie in the so-called midnight circle, the
midnight screening circle. And he called up cinema in New
York, and on April 1st, 1976, was the first time that it's
(11:54):
screened in a theatre called theWaverley.
And that was discovered by, let's say, a strange crowd.
And they started going into that, into the into the movie
regularly, every Friday, every Saturday, always at midnight.
(12:14):
And yeah, something spoke to them that actually made them
imitate the film Dancing in the aisles.
And yeah, that's actually what it called evolved.
And from there it's speed on to 1st the whole United States, and
from there all over the world. That's basically how everything
(12:38):
happened. Wow.
So in a nutshell. A lot to discuss.
One of the things that's fascinating that you show in
your movie is that with all these different versions of the
production, whether it was on stage or on, you know, film at
different points, it was either hugely successful or a complete
(13:00):
failure. And it, it's just a little
confusing as to why sometimes itsucceeded and and sometimes it
did not like the, the play version that initially opened
that you started with was a tremendous success, as you said.
And they made the film and, and the film came out and, and it
kind of bombed. Later on with the midnight
(13:23):
screenings, it started to gain popularity.
Eventually there was like a Broadway production of it that
did not do so well and and then there's been like remakes and
and some of those have not done so well.
So like what? What is the key you think to to
why certain times or certain productions clicked and other
(13:46):
times they did not? I think it's basically the
audience. I mean, when they showed it the
first time in cinemas, these were like family theatres.
There were regular people going,going there and they didn't
(14:06):
really understand what was goingon at that time.
You have to remember homosexuality was still illegal
in some states. People were still trying to
fight for their rights and to show the, the, the main actor,
the main character, Frankenfurter sleeping with a
girl and then like 5 minutes later with her boyfriend was
(14:31):
shocking. So it was, it went over the
heads of, of the, let's say regular cinema audience.
And the same as in, in Broadway,Broadway is a very conventional
place. It's a very middle class place.
And people do have their subscriptions for for the
(14:53):
theatres and they are usually gothere to see like more or less I
would say sanitized musicals, which are entertaining but are
not frictioning, you know what Imean?
And when they showed it on Broadway, the people were
(15:13):
shocked because at that time they didn't expect something
like that. And that's basically the reason
why it failed at the box office and on Broadway, because people
were not expecting to to see something shocking like Rocky
Horror at that time. Yeah, you mentioned the
(15:35):
screenings at the way really themidnight screenings, which took
place actually not too far from where I am right now here on
Long Island. And you know, those, those
screenings are legendary and, and, and really a big part of
what the movie concentrates on. What's still amazing to me is
(15:55):
everyone here has heard about the audience participation.
Probably at some point, probablya lot of our listeners, maybe at
some point in their life have gone to a screening.
Maybe you've only heard about it.
But what amazes me is that somehow it that audience
participation even happened the first time.
(16:19):
Can you tell me about the very, very first screenings where
somebody decided to start doing something and then how it
started to grow? Because you would think normally
like if somebody got up and started screaming out lines in a
movie or if someone went up in front of the screen or somebody
threw something that would just get you evicted from a movie
(16:43):
theater. So like I, I don't understand
like how in the, in the first days of it that like they were,
it even evolved, like was it natural or just spontaneous?
Or was there some organization with the theater owner in the
beginning? Or did that come later?
No, I think actually I can't explain it to you because what
(17:07):
if I could explain it, or if anybody could explain it, they
would have done more movies likethat.
I think one of the reasons why it became so successful or why
the audience participation really happened was it was
spontaneous and it was organic. And you have to remember it's
(17:29):
always the same people going there.
It's not like in the beginning they had a huge fluctuation of
people. It was the same 50 people, same
6050, sixty people who came there every Saturday, every
Friday and watched the same movie.
So and at one point in time, andbecause the movie is kind of
(17:51):
slow, if you look at it, I thinkthey got bored or yeah, maybe it
was one of the reasons because they got bored and they thought
about the thought of something to do.
And it started off with AI thinkit was a kindergarten teacher
who yelled out buy, buy an umbrella.
(18:14):
You cheap. The rest you need to blur.
And I don't know if I'm even allowed to say that.
And it started from there. And there was the first
callback, there was the second callback, the third callback.
And it was, as I understood it, also a challenge to to think
(18:35):
about it, to think about one of these callbacks and come back
next week or next month and thenyell it.
And when it was applauded and people laughed about it, it
became part of the ritual. And also the thing was throwing
the rice and the newspapers and the skirt guns and all that.
(19:01):
It was very, very organic. Nobody told them what to do,
Nobody gave them a script. You have to throw rice here and
you have to throw toast there. It was organic because at that
time people were very creative and they thought about what can
we do the next time. And that's basically how the
(19:22):
whole thing evolved. Over the years though, it got a
bit out of hand and we've heard lots of complaints from from
people who were going to the show basically in the UK or
going to the cinemas. And the yelling became so or got
so out of hand that you couldn'thear anything from the movie
(19:44):
anymore. And by now, because of security
regulations, you're not allowed to do certain things in the in
the cinemas and but still the audience participation is
happening and people think aboutother things to do then to have
(20:06):
lighters or cigarette lighters and, and, and newspapers and in
the cinema, which might be kind of a fun.
Yeah, but if you. Think about.
It, yeah, I mean, it was pretty wild.
One of the things that it eventually evolved into is
complete shadow casting. Can you explain to our listeners
(20:31):
what that is, what a shadow castis?
A shadow cast basically is the the people, I would call them
the performers. Within the shadow cast, they
learn exactly what the characters on screen are doing,
and they are standing in front of the screen and doing exactly
(20:55):
what the characters do on screenwhile they do it on screen.
So it's like mimicking, mimicking the yeah, mimicking,
mimicking the movement, mimicking the singing and yeah,
playing the film out and and in front of the screen, which is a
(21:17):
very, very unusual thing. You won't find it for many
movies, I think. I don't, I don't think that
there is any other film which has such a shadowcast community.
And what I understand is the name shadowcasting comes from
when they are standing in front of the screen, they're casting a
(21:39):
shadow right onto the screen dueto the projection.
And so the shadow is slightly seen on screen.
And their goal is or was actually at that time to be as
precise and like frame accurate to the movements of the
characters as possible. And even today they're doing
(22:03):
these shadow castings. And it's a very, very
interesting thing to watch because it adds another layer to
to the performance. You have the people on screen,
then you have the audience participation.
So people around you are are yelling and dancing and and
doing stuff and you have anotherlayer of people performing
(22:26):
actually in front of the screen.So it's more like an interactive
and how do you call it immersiveexperience now then just to go
into a into a cinema and watch amovie like you like like usually
do. Can I ask you?
It wasn't exactly clear to me. It seems that some of these
(22:47):
actors have been doing it for decades.
Do they somehow participate in the financial rewards of like a
good screening because they're acting like, do they get
involved in the actual production of the night?
Or is it just all like anyone can show up, anyone can get
(23:11):
dressed up? Like what happens if two people
show up for the same part? Like I, I just don't understand
how any of the management of like how this thing is run or
how these people could do it forso many decades or.
To answer your first question about if they're financially
involved, no they aren't. I'm not aware of any shadow cars
(23:32):
that actually receives money forthe performance.
What they do is they pay most ofthe stuff they are that they
need, like their makeup or theirtheir costumes or the props
they're building out of their own pocket.
And some casts. They they, they, they do get a
(23:55):
little bit of money because theysell the so-called prop bags.
So when you enter a theater, youcan buy like like a paper bag
and there you find all the propsyou need like a newspaper and
the squirt gun if it's if it's allowed and other like little
gimmicks. And with the revenue they're
(24:16):
generating through this prop bags, which are actually not
very expensive, they are like 5 or $10.
I think they're refinancing whatthey are paying because they
have huge expenses. If you think about how much make
up they need, how many costumes they need, how much time they
spent into doing the costumes, costumes, then all, all the,
(24:39):
the, the like, the way they haveto, to, to drive every time they
go to the cinema and so on. So no, it's not that they don't
get paid, or at least not, I don't know any cars that really
gets paid. That's incredible.
Yeah and yes, you're right, there were, there are still
(25:01):
people around which are doing shadow casting for 10/20/30 even
40 years. We've met shadowcasts performers
who are doing the same same rolefor 30-40 years and they are
still enjoying it. And with the with with the cast
(25:25):
itself, they are like Little Theatre groups.
You can like imagine them with Little Theatre groups.
They have a manager, most of them have a manager or a
so-called cast leader. And if you want to join, and I'm
not talking about all casts, butthe cast we've, we've spoken
with and you actually have to audition if you want to go, uh,
(25:49):
into, if you want to be part of,uh, of a shadow cars.
So, umm, they have like more or less open auditions.
They are they're they're publishing their their audition
dates on Facebook and if you're interested, you can you can
apply and mostly you, you, you, you start off as less, let's
(26:12):
say, important role. Maybe play Transylvanians, maybe
start with technical props and something sell these proper
properx I was talking about earlier.
And then you have to of course, create your own custom.
Then you have to practice a lot until you are more or less safe
(26:39):
with the movement the character you've chosen is doing on
screen. And after that you may get the
chance to actually appear as oneof the lead characters.
Sorry. Then you actually get get get
the chance to appear as one of the characters on stage in front
(27:02):
of the screen I. Don't, I don't know any of the
rules. I don't know any of the rules or
the etiquette, but it, it seemedlike in the early days it was
very free form and like anybody could do anything.
I don't know if that was really true, but now with the the
shadow casting, like if somebodyjust shows up in the audience
and they're dressed up and they just wander up to the front,
(27:23):
yeah. Are they going to be told to sit
down? Is is that wrong for them to
join the cast? Like, are there rules?
So you can't do that. As, as far as I understand it,
yes. Yes.
That makes you want to as as as I said, I mean, you, you don't
go into a theatre and dressed like King Lear and just jump on
stage, right? Yeah, so I think it's the same
(27:46):
with with the shadow cast, actually.
Yeah. And then the early beginning, I
mean, it was a slow, it was a slow genesis.
I mean, it was not like they formed this shadow cast
community and play through the whole movie that just started
off with single with with singleacts.
(28:07):
You know, somebody came to this year to dress to strengthen
further and just when up and down the aisle while Frank
saying sweet transvestite and then another person stands up
dressed as Janet and started to dance and, and and mimic Janet
during the during the betting scene or during floor show.
(28:30):
And so it really started very slowly and only for for limited
time and only later, I think in the mid 80s, if I remember
correctly, they really started to be that kind kind of theater
group and performing throughout the whole whole movie.
I think was like end of 70s, beginning of the 80s that they
(28:53):
really performed during the whole movie.
Because actually the movie has its, let's say, a little bit
slower parts like the dinner scene.
And it's very hard to perform during the dinner scene because
actually nothing happens on screen.
So yeah, it was a it was a slow,slow progression from the first
(29:18):
Frankenfurters dressed up characters until a performance
throughout the whole movies withthe whole cast.
Yeah. And and then at the end of your
film, I I really like this part.You, you kind of go into how
much this film has meant to a very particular group of people.
(29:41):
There's a there's a lot of the film was ahead of its time in
terms of its subject matter. And a lot of people who at
different points throughout their lives maybe didn't fit in
at school or in society or whatnot, found a real sense of
family and community. And going to these screenings
(30:03):
and it seems like the film and all the theatrics with it gave
meaning to a large group of people.
Can you can you expand on that alittle bit?
Yeah, actually a lot of people we have spoken to a lot of
shadow cast member, especially the younger ones expressed to us
(30:24):
what Rocky means to them. And some of them or or not some
of them actually a lot of them do have some like difficulties.
As you said, they don't fit intolike the regular community in in
in sense of they are not sporty or they they are not in that
(30:47):
club or in that whatever interest group.
And so they are left out a little bit of the regular, I
would say youth society or youthcommunity.
And they were always looking forsomething like a safe haven for,
for friends and acceptance. And whether they are their,
(31:10):
their sex sexuality or whether it's a sexuality or it's they
are not satisfied with with their body or they have
psychological problems or any kind of struggle they are
dealing with. Actually most of them or all of
them we've spoken to found a safe haven in Rocky Horror.
(31:32):
And that's an amazing thing because Rocky Horror or the
community of Rocky Horror says no matter who you are, no matter
what you are, no matter what kind of struggle you're dealing
with, you're welcome and you're accepted here.
And it doesn't matter how you look like.
If you want to play Janet, you play Janet.
(31:54):
Whether you're stick figure sin or 200 lbs overweight, whether
you're a man or woman, we don't care.
As long as you're playing a goodJanet, you can play it.
And as long as it satisfies you and as long as you're
contributing to our little RockyHorror society, you're always
welcome. And that's a very good thing.
And I think it's a very unique thing you don't find very often.
(32:19):
Yeah, it's amazing. You know, we talked about the
play, the film, but the last thing I want to just ask you
about is the music. A lot of people have come to it
through the music because you can listen to it online now all
over the world. Do do you think the music has
stood up and do you think it's part of why this whole thing has
(32:42):
gone on for so many decades? I wouldn't.
I wouldn't say it's part of it. I would say that's the main
thing. Without the music, the whole
thing would work. When I first saw the film when I
was like 1415, back in the 80s, I didn't like the film very
much. It was entertaining but never
(33:03):
really spoke to me. But I loved the music.
I was listening to the soundtrack for a couple of years
more or less constantly and knewevery song.
I still know every song. And yeah, the music is the music
is is amazing. And I think apart from, let's
say Tim Curry's performance and the overall sex appeal of the
(33:28):
movie, The music is the most important thing of of Rocky
Horror on stage and and of course in the theatre.
Well, I, I love this documentary.
It it's a lot of fun and it really sheds some light on the
whole process as well as really educating us about the audience
(33:50):
that brought the whole production to another level with
those live participation events.Can you tell us a little bit
about if you want to go online to learn more about you and,
and, and this film? Is there any place you can
direct them online? Can you repeat the question
because I didn't hear about. Yeah, where?
Where can we go online to learn more about this movie and you?
(34:15):
Oh, there's a, a website called Sane Insight insanity.com, which
is our official website. There is a, there are trailers,
there are Bureau, there's Bureaufootage and there's a there's,
there's a description of the movie.
(34:35):
And of course, we are present onon Facebook and on Instagram.
And I think if you search for sane insight insanity, you'll
pretty pretty easily find us there.
And yeah, love to interact with you if you're interested in.
(34:55):
Andres, I, you made me wanna go and listen to the music again.
So that's what I'm gonna do later today.
And I wanna recommend to everybody else that they go and
try and see this film. Thank you so much.
It was really a pleasure speaking with you.
Yeah, Thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with
you.
Hi, this is Tom Needham and you are listening to the sounds of
film. On today's show, we'll be
talking with director Andreas Zayer about his new documentary
Sane Inside Insanity, which takes a fresh look at the 50
year phenomenon of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Andreas, thank you so much for joining us.
(00:22):
This is a a very fun documentaryand also tells a great story.
Yes. Thank you very much.
This film is this show is calledThe Sounds of Film, and we play
a lot of film soundtrack music. So through the years we've
definitely paid a lot of attention to The Rocky Horror
Picture Show. But this documentary really
(00:43):
tells the whole history of the movie and the play, and you did
a really nice job. You've said that you weren't a
huge fan of Rocky Horror before starting this project.
What made you even want to make this film then in the first
place? Well, as an independent
(01:04):
filmmaker, you're always lookingfor that one particularly great
story. And I think how Rocky Horror
came to pass beginning of the 70s until like 50 years later.
And this worldwide phenomenon isa very great story.
I mean, it's and more or less unprecedented success and to
(01:30):
follow the the story how it started as a 60 seat show in a
French Theatre in London and became this worldwide phenomenon
which like millions and millionsof people are following or have
followed and thousands and thousands of people are still
actively celebrating. It's a it's a very, very good
(01:53):
story and that's basically what made us do it.
Was this always going to be a feature length film, or did you
originally intend to just do something to mark the occasion?
Maybe something shorter? No.
Well, when we first started, actually, I wasn't really aware
that there was a show before themovie and I didn't, oh, I wasn't
(02:18):
aware of how big Rocky Horror still is in in in the presence.
So our first intention when we started the project was just
like like 30 minute feature, 45 minute feature, kind of a late
making of because everybody knows about the amazing careers
(02:41):
of Susan Sarandon and Tim Curry.But all the other actors and
people who were involved kind ofdisappeared from the original
stage, from the international stage, sorry.
And they had their careers definitely in their own rights,
but on the regional level, not like worldwide success.
(03:02):
And so I was just wondering whathappened to these people like
Richard O'Brien, Nell Campbell, Pat Quinn.
And so the original intention was to make a yeah late make
enough. And when we started to
investigate and we started to dig deeper, the whole story of
(03:24):
what Rocky Horror was and still is suddenly occurred to us.
And that was basically the reason why we extended it to a
full length documentary. Well, it's definitely worthy.
I understand that this took you a lot of years to make.
Exactly how long did it take? And what is the reason that it
(03:45):
took so long? Well, it took us 10 years, more
than 10 years. We started filming in 2014, in
November 2014, and we actually finished it a couple of months
ago. So yeah, it was more than 10
years in the making. And the main reason was we never
(04:09):
took it as a very serious project because it wasn't
commissioned by any studio or network, or we didn't have
anybody who was financing it. So we were handling it like pet
project, you know, when you're working on a project in between
paid jobs. And that's basically why it took
(04:31):
us so long, because we financed everything by ourselves and we
did it more or less on our sparetime.
And that's one of the reasons why it took so long.
I I knew about the the popularity of the midnight
screenings and and the people that would go to them, but I
never really had a full sense ofthe community that developed
(04:53):
around this film through the years.
It's almost like a secret society.
Did you have to gain the trust of all these people who are very
much a part of that community? Yes, yes, definitely.
I wasn't aware of it either. And it took us a while to
(05:14):
realize the scope of how many active casts are out there.
And yeah, definitely it took us a while to to gain the trust.
But from the start we were very active on social media.
We posted our progress of the ofthe production.
(05:34):
And with with that, we we kind of gained trust because people
started to take us seriously. We were not just like any film
makers holding the cameras up and say hey dance, but we took
the whole production very, very seriously.
And once you have like stepped into the world of Rocky Horror
(05:58):
and people are taking you seriously, it's pretty easy
actually to get access to more. And contacts they're handling
were handled to us. And when we like announced that
we are going to the United States or we are going to
Australia to film, the people from the cast actually
(06:20):
approached us and wrote us mailsor messages if we would like to,
to come by their show and film their show and do some
interviews with them. So yeah, it took us a couple of
years to actually be treated seriously.
But once you have this kind of status, once you've like
(06:41):
published the first Bureau footage, once people people know
you, it was fairly easy. And once, once one the the
community of Rocky Horror is very tightly knit.
And you were right, man, saying that's kind of a, let's say
subculture. But once you've stepped into
(07:03):
that culture and once you've stepped in the into the
community, it became very easy for us.
For those people that are not familiar with all the different
formations of Rocky Horror, can you just give us a quick
overview of how it started as a play and then it became the next
(07:24):
thing and then the next thing and and what it is today?
How detailed would do you want me to be?
You can you, you can go. I mean, I want people to see the
film, you know, where you reallygo in deep and explain it all.
But just just a very general overview.
Well, it started off in 1970, two, 1973, when the writer and
(07:47):
composer Richard O'Brien developed the concept, which was
by that time called They Came From Denton High.
He presented that concept to at that time, famous director or
still famous director, of course, Jim Sharman, and they
both started to work on a screenplay.
(08:08):
They renamed it from They Came from Denton High into The Rocky
Horror Show. They went to a very renewable
renown Theatre in London, which is called the Royal Court.
And the Royal Court actually hasa small theatre which is not
(08:29):
much more than a black box on top of their main Theatre in
London. And yeah, they started the
casting people, actors like Tim Curry, for example, Nell
Campbell and Patricia Quinn, whowere among the first actors of
the show. And in June 1973 their they had
(08:49):
their premiere up there in the upstairs.
And yeah, it became an instant hit him smash hit across London.
Their contract went only for like 4 weeks, so after four
weeks they had to change the theatre.
So there's that famous Rd. in London called the King's Road
where at the time everything cultural was happening.
(09:13):
And they moved along that road to different theatres in the in
1974. And a producer in Los Angeles
called Lou Adler became aware ofthe show and he became
interested in Rocky Horror. And by the time he has just
(09:35):
bought a opened, bought opened aa cabaret theatre called The
Roxy. And he was interested in
bringing that play from London to the United States to Los
Angeles. And there it started in 1974.
(09:57):
And because of the success both in London and in Los Angeles,
they were able to get a movie contract.
And in October, I think it was in October 1974, they started
filming back in London again. And that took about, I think,
(10:22):
like 3 months, four months. And the film was finished
actually in 1975, had a theatrical release on September
26 in the United States, some late late October, late August
in London. But the main thing was United
States in September 1976 and 1975.
(10:45):
And sorry. And yeah, from when the film
first came out, actually it was a flop.
Nobody wanted to see it because it was too far ahead.
It went over the heads of the like regular audience.
So nobody wanted to see the film.
And so it was in the cinemas only for a couple of weeks and
(11:10):
then it was more or less forgotten.
It went into the shelf to be released or to to go on on on
television or whatever. But it was never meant or the
let's say it wasn't the cult back then.
And a Fox executive who was on the lower level executive in the
(11:31):
marketing and sales department called Tim Deegan had the idea
to open the movie in the so-called midnight circle, the
midnight screening circle. And he called up cinema in New
York, and on April 1st, 1976, was the first time that it's
(11:54):
screened in a theatre called theWaverley.
And that was discovered by, let's say, a strange crowd.
And they started going into that, into the into the movie
regularly, every Friday, every Saturday, always at midnight.
(12:14):
And yeah, something spoke to them that actually made them
imitate the film Dancing in the aisles.
And yeah, that's actually what it called evolved.
And from there it's speed on to 1st the whole United States, and
from there all over the world. That's basically how everything
(12:38):
happened. Wow.
So in a nutshell. A lot to discuss.
One of the things that's fascinating that you show in
your movie is that with all these different versions of the
production, whether it was on stage or on, you know, film at
different points, it was either hugely successful or a complete
(13:00):
failure. And it, it's just a little
confusing as to why sometimes itsucceeded and and sometimes it
did not like the, the play version that initially opened
that you started with was a tremendous success, as you said.
And they made the film and, and the film came out and, and it
kind of bombed. Later on with the midnight
(13:23):
screenings, it started to gain popularity.
Eventually there was like a Broadway production of it that
did not do so well and and then there's been like remakes and
and some of those have not done so well.
So like what? What is the key you think to to
why certain times or certain productions clicked and other
(13:46):
times they did not? I think it's basically the
audience. I mean, when they showed it the
first time in cinemas, these were like family theatres.
There were regular people going,going there and they didn't
(14:06):
really understand what was goingon at that time.
You have to remember homosexuality was still illegal
in some states. People were still trying to
fight for their rights and to show the, the, the main actor,
the main character, Frankenfurter sleeping with a
girl and then like 5 minutes later with her boyfriend was
(14:31):
shocking. So it was, it went over the
heads of, of the, let's say regular cinema audience.
And the same as in, in Broadway,Broadway is a very conventional
place. It's a very middle class place.
And people do have their subscriptions for for the
(14:53):
theatres and they are usually gothere to see like more or less I
would say sanitized musicals, which are entertaining but are
not frictioning, you know what Imean?
And when they showed it on Broadway, the people were
(15:13):
shocked because at that time they didn't expect something
like that. And that's basically the reason
why it failed at the box office and on Broadway, because people
were not expecting to to see something shocking like Rocky
Horror at that time. Yeah, you mentioned the
(15:35):
screenings at the way really themidnight screenings, which took
place actually not too far from where I am right now here on
Long Island. And you know, those, those
screenings are legendary and, and, and really a big part of
what the movie concentrates on. What's still amazing to me is
(15:55):
everyone here has heard about the audience participation.
Probably at some point, probablya lot of our listeners, maybe at
some point in their life have gone to a screening.
Maybe you've only heard about it.
But what amazes me is that somehow it that audience
participation even happened the first time.
(16:19):
Can you tell me about the very, very first screenings where
somebody decided to start doing something and then how it
started to grow? Because you would think normally
like if somebody got up and started screaming out lines in a
movie or if someone went up in front of the screen or somebody
threw something that would just get you evicted from a movie
(16:43):
theater. So like I, I don't understand
like how in the, in the first days of it that like they were,
it even evolved, like was it natural or just spontaneous?
Or was there some organization with the theater owner in the
beginning? Or did that come later?
No, I think actually I can't explain it to you because what
(17:07):
if I could explain it, or if anybody could explain it, they
would have done more movies likethat.
I think one of the reasons why it became so successful or why
the audience participation really happened was it was
spontaneous and it was organic. And you have to remember it's
(17:29):
always the same people going there.
It's not like in the beginning they had a huge fluctuation of
people. It was the same 50 people, same
6050, sixty people who came there every Saturday, every
Friday and watched the same movie.
So and at one point in time, andbecause the movie is kind of
(17:51):
slow, if you look at it, I thinkthey got bored or yeah, maybe it
was one of the reasons because they got bored and they thought
about the thought of something to do.
And it started off with AI thinkit was a kindergarten teacher
who yelled out buy, buy an umbrella.
(18:14):
You cheap. The rest you need to blur.
And I don't know if I'm even allowed to say that.
And it started from there. And there was the first
callback, there was the second callback, the third callback.
And it was, as I understood it, also a challenge to to think
(18:35):
about it, to think about one of these callbacks and come back
next week or next month and thenyell it.
And when it was applauded and people laughed about it, it
became part of the ritual. And also the thing was throwing
the rice and the newspapers and the skirt guns and all that.
(19:01):
It was very, very organic. Nobody told them what to do,
Nobody gave them a script. You have to throw rice here and
you have to throw toast there. It was organic because at that
time people were very creative and they thought about what can
we do the next time. And that's basically how the
(19:22):
whole thing evolved. Over the years though, it got a
bit out of hand and we've heard lots of complaints from from
people who were going to the show basically in the UK or
going to the cinemas. And the yelling became so or got
so out of hand that you couldn'thear anything from the movie
(19:44):
anymore. And by now, because of security
regulations, you're not allowed to do certain things in the in
the cinemas and but still the audience participation is
happening and people think aboutother things to do then to have
(20:06):
lighters or cigarette lighters and, and, and newspapers and in
the cinema, which might be kind of a fun.
Yeah, but if you. Think about.
It, yeah, I mean, it was pretty wild.
One of the things that it eventually evolved into is
complete shadow casting. Can you explain to our listeners
(20:31):
what that is, what a shadow castis?
A shadow cast basically is the the people, I would call them
the performers. Within the shadow cast, they
learn exactly what the characters on screen are doing,
and they are standing in front of the screen and doing exactly
(20:55):
what the characters do on screenwhile they do it on screen.
So it's like mimicking, mimicking the yeah, mimicking,
mimicking the movement, mimicking the singing and yeah,
playing the film out and and in front of the screen, which is a
(21:17):
very, very unusual thing. You won't find it for many
movies, I think. I don't, I don't think that
there is any other film which has such a shadowcast community.
And what I understand is the name shadowcasting comes from
when they are standing in front of the screen, they're casting a
(21:39):
shadow right onto the screen dueto the projection.
And so the shadow is slightly seen on screen.
And their goal is or was actually at that time to be as
precise and like frame accurate to the movements of the
characters as possible. And even today they're doing
(22:03):
these shadow castings. And it's a very, very
interesting thing to watch because it adds another layer to
to the performance. You have the people on screen,
then you have the audience participation.
So people around you are are yelling and dancing and and
doing stuff and you have anotherlayer of people performing
(22:26):
actually in front of the screen.So it's more like an interactive
and how do you call it immersiveexperience now then just to go
into a into a cinema and watch amovie like you like like usually
do. Can I ask you?
It wasn't exactly clear to me. It seems that some of these
(22:47):
actors have been doing it for decades.
Do they somehow participate in the financial rewards of like a
good screening because they're acting like, do they get
involved in the actual production of the night?
Or is it just all like anyone can show up, anyone can get
(23:11):
dressed up? Like what happens if two people
show up for the same part? Like I, I just don't understand
how any of the management of like how this thing is run or
how these people could do it forso many decades or.
To answer your first question about if they're financially
involved, no they aren't. I'm not aware of any shadow cars
(23:32):
that actually receives money forthe performance.
What they do is they pay most ofthe stuff they are that they
need, like their makeup or theirtheir costumes or the props
they're building out of their own pocket.
And some casts. They they, they, they do get a
(23:55):
little bit of money because theysell the so-called prop bags.
So when you enter a theater, youcan buy like like a paper bag
and there you find all the propsyou need like a newspaper and
the squirt gun if it's if it's allowed and other like little
gimmicks. And with the revenue they're
(24:16):
generating through this prop bags, which are actually not
very expensive, they are like 5 or $10.
I think they're refinancing whatthey are paying because they
have huge expenses. If you think about how much make
up they need, how many costumes they need, how much time they
spent into doing the costumes, costumes, then all, all the,
(24:39):
the, the like, the way they haveto, to, to drive every time they
go to the cinema and so on. So no, it's not that they don't
get paid, or at least not, I don't know any cars that really
gets paid. That's incredible.
Yeah and yes, you're right, there were, there are still
(25:01):
people around which are doing shadow casting for 10/20/30 even
40 years. We've met shadowcasts performers
who are doing the same same rolefor 30-40 years and they are
still enjoying it. And with the with with the cast
(25:25):
itself, they are like Little Theatre groups.
You can like imagine them with Little Theatre groups.
They have a manager, most of them have a manager or a
so-called cast leader. And if you want to join, and I'm
not talking about all casts, butthe cast we've, we've spoken
with and you actually have to audition if you want to go, uh,
(25:49):
into, if you want to be part of,uh, of a shadow cars.
So, umm, they have like more or less open auditions.
They are they're they're publishing their their audition
dates on Facebook and if you're interested, you can you can
apply and mostly you, you, you, you start off as less, let's
(26:12):
say, important role. Maybe play Transylvanians, maybe
start with technical props and something sell these proper
properx I was talking about earlier.
And then you have to of course, create your own custom.
Then you have to practice a lot until you are more or less safe
(26:39):
with the movement the character you've chosen is doing on
screen. And after that you may get the
chance to actually appear as oneof the lead characters.
Sorry. Then you actually get get get
the chance to appear as one of the characters on stage in front
(27:02):
of the screen I. Don't, I don't know any of the
rules. I don't know any of the rules or
the etiquette, but it, it seemedlike in the early days it was
very free form and like anybody could do anything.
I don't know if that was really true, but now with the the
shadow casting, like if somebodyjust shows up in the audience
and they're dressed up and they just wander up to the front,
(27:23):
yeah. Are they going to be told to sit
down? Is is that wrong for them to
join the cast? Like, are there rules?
So you can't do that. As, as far as I understand it,
yes. Yes.
That makes you want to as as as I said, I mean, you, you don't
go into a theatre and dressed like King Lear and just jump on
stage, right? Yeah, so I think it's the same
(27:46):
with with the shadow cast, actually.
Yeah. And then the early beginning, I
mean, it was a slow, it was a slow genesis.
I mean, it was not like they formed this shadow cast
community and play through the whole movie that just started
off with single with with singleacts.
(28:07):
You know, somebody came to this year to dress to strengthen
further and just when up and down the aisle while Frank
saying sweet transvestite and then another person stands up
dressed as Janet and started to dance and, and and mimic Janet
during the during the betting scene or during floor show.
(28:30):
And so it really started very slowly and only for for limited
time and only later, I think in the mid 80s, if I remember
correctly, they really started to be that kind kind of theater
group and performing throughout the whole whole movie.
I think was like end of 70s, beginning of the 80s that they
(28:53):
really performed during the whole movie.
Because actually the movie has its, let's say, a little bit
slower parts like the dinner scene.
And it's very hard to perform during the dinner scene because
actually nothing happens on screen.
So yeah, it was a it was a slow,slow progression from the first
(29:18):
Frankenfurters dressed up characters until a performance
throughout the whole movies withthe whole cast.
Yeah. And and then at the end of your
film, I I really like this part.You, you kind of go into how
much this film has meant to a very particular group of people.
(29:41):
There's a there's a lot of the film was ahead of its time in
terms of its subject matter. And a lot of people who at
different points throughout their lives maybe didn't fit in
at school or in society or whatnot, found a real sense of
family and community. And going to these screenings
(30:03):
and it seems like the film and all the theatrics with it gave
meaning to a large group of people.
Can you can you expand on that alittle bit?
Yeah, actually a lot of people we have spoken to a lot of
shadow cast member, especially the younger ones expressed to us
(30:24):
what Rocky means to them. And some of them or or not some
of them actually a lot of them do have some like difficulties.
As you said, they don't fit intolike the regular community in in
in sense of they are not sporty or they they are not in that
(30:47):
club or in that whatever interest group.
And so they are left out a little bit of the regular, I
would say youth society or youthcommunity.
And they were always looking forsomething like a safe haven for,
for friends and acceptance. And whether they are their,
(31:10):
their sex sexuality or whether it's a sexuality or it's they
are not satisfied with with their body or they have
psychological problems or any kind of struggle they are
dealing with. Actually most of them or all of
them we've spoken to found a safe haven in Rocky Horror.
(31:32):
And that's an amazing thing because Rocky Horror or the
community of Rocky Horror says no matter who you are, no matter
what you are, no matter what kind of struggle you're dealing
with, you're welcome and you're accepted here.
And it doesn't matter how you look like.
If you want to play Janet, you play Janet.
(31:54):
Whether you're stick figure sin or 200 lbs overweight, whether
you're a man or woman, we don't care.
As long as you're playing a goodJanet, you can play it.
And as long as it satisfies you and as long as you're
contributing to our little RockyHorror society, you're always
welcome. And that's a very good thing.
And I think it's a very unique thing you don't find very often.
(32:19):
Yeah, it's amazing. You know, we talked about the
play, the film, but the last thing I want to just ask you
about is the music. A lot of people have come to it
through the music because you can listen to it online now all
over the world. Do do you think the music has
stood up and do you think it's part of why this whole thing has
(32:42):
gone on for so many decades? I wouldn't.
I wouldn't say it's part of it. I would say that's the main
thing. Without the music, the whole
thing would work. When I first saw the film when I
was like 1415, back in the 80s, I didn't like the film very
much. It was entertaining but never
(33:03):
really spoke to me. But I loved the music.
I was listening to the soundtrack for a couple of years
more or less constantly and knewevery song.
I still know every song. And yeah, the music is the music
is is amazing. And I think apart from, let's
say Tim Curry's performance and the overall sex appeal of the
(33:28):
movie, The music is the most important thing of of Rocky
Horror on stage and and of course in the theatre.
Well, I, I love this documentary.
It it's a lot of fun and it really sheds some light on the
whole process as well as really educating us about the audience
(33:50):
that brought the whole production to another level with
those live participation events.Can you tell us a little bit
about if you want to go online to learn more about you and,
and, and this film? Is there any place you can
direct them online? Can you repeat the question
because I didn't hear about. Yeah, where?
Where can we go online to learn more about this movie and you?
(34:15):
Oh, there's a, a website called Sane Insight insanity.com, which
is our official website. There is a, there are trailers,
there are Bureau, there's Bureaufootage and there's a there's,
there's a description of the movie.
(34:35):
And of course, we are present onon Facebook and on Instagram.
And I think if you search for sane insight insanity, you'll
pretty pretty easily find us there.
And yeah, love to interact with you if you're interested in.
(34:55):
Andres, I, you made me wanna go and listen to the music again.
So that's what I'm gonna do later today.
And I wanna recommend to everybody else that they go and
try and see this film. Thank you so much.
It was really a pleasure speaking with you.
Yeah, Thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with
you.
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